You heard it here first

I was pleased to see Yesterday  Michael Gove put out a statement saying the EU referendum was like the civil war without the muskets.

I agree. My puppet Parliament speech on 24th May published here used just such a phrase to explain we were fighting democratically for our independence.

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50 Comments

  1. fedupsoutherner
    Posted December 30, 2016 at 10:37 am | Permalink

    Well lets hope that in 2017 someone in authority actually listens and then takes some action and if needs be, get the muskets out!!

  2. JJE
    Posted December 30, 2016 at 10:44 am | Permalink

    So can we expect to see your head on a spike above Westminster Hall before too long? Or perhaps this time round it will be 32 Smith Square?

  3. alan jutson
    Posted December 30, 2016 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    Let us also hope that our negotiation team and Prime Minister also realise and recognise the strength of our position, and are prepared to leave simply by walking away if we cannot get tariff free trading terms, and mutual co-operation without payment.

  4. Bert Young
    Posted December 30, 2016 at 11:14 am | Permalink

    I hope that Michael Gove admits he picked up the analogy from you ; he is a straightforward bloke who will re-emerge .

  5. Denis Cooper
    Posted December 30, 2016 at 11:49 am | Permalink

    I don’t really see the present conflict as a resumption of the historical conflict between Crown and Parliament which culminated in the Civil War. If the decision had been left to Parliament we would be staying in the EU, and the Crown would be taking the advice of a Prime Minister drawn from that Parliament. However Parliament decided to refer the decision to the electorate, which is now close to being synonymous with the people as a whole rather than being just a restricted set as it was historically; and it is the people who have decided that we should leave the EU, not Parliament nor the Crown. Both inside and outside Parliament there are those, overall a minority, who are prepared to defy the will of the people as expressed in the referendum, but the main agitation for the result to be set aside or frustrated is in fact coming from outside Parliament.

    • APL
      Posted January 1, 2017 at 9:23 am | Permalink

      Denis Cooper: “not Parliament nor the Crown”

      As the prerogative powers now reside with the Prime minister, what is the distinction between Parliament and the Crown?

  6. Denis Cooper
    Posted December 30, 2016 at 11:49 am | Permalink

    Incidentally, if it turns out that the government needs to get an Act passed to secure fresh parliamentary authority before it can serve the Article 50 notice then it will make little difference to the ease of its passage if the Bill is kept very short, according to this:

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2016/12/the-joy-of-brex.html

    “Readers will be familiar with the assertion that if such a Bill is brief it will be very difficult to amend – and this one would certainly be very short indeed (unless the court rules otherwise, as Lady Hale has suggested it might).

    This claim is a misunderstanding of Parliamentary procedure. A Bill can be amended in any way that the Speaker rules to be order. He relies on the view of the clerks. ConservativeHome is told that they would see such a Bill, unsurprisingly, as being no different from any other. And while a brief bill offers fewer opportunities for amendment than a longer one, the potential to amend it is there if MPs and peers are ingenious enough.

    So Ministers’ aim in producing a short bill, in these circumstances, would not be quite as sometimes claimed. They are arguably less concerned with procedure than psychology. To table a brief bill would be to throw down a gauntlet to peers and MPs. “The British people have voted for Brexit,” the move would proclaim. “Defy them and block Article 50 if you dare.””

    My concern is that the Bill may too weakly worded to be sure of overturning objections from the courts, rather than than peers and MPs. It needs to say not only:

    “Notwithstanding the European Communities Act 1972”

    but also:

    “Nothing in this Act may be questioned in any court in the United Kingdom, and nor may any question relating to this Act be referred to the European Court of Justice or any other court anywhere else in the world”.

  7. rose
    Posted December 30, 2016 at 11:49 am | Permalink

    Whenever I speak to a friend (since June 23) I say at some point in the conversation: “And which side of the civil war were you on?” They always know what I mean.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 30, 2016 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

      The people on the wrong side of the civil war were largely dire. Or often just non political people, very often feather bedded state sector workers or silver spoon types. They just went along unquestioningly with the irrational “BBC think” agenda (as they also tend to do on the “BBC think” climate alarmism religion).

      Predominately arts graduates, when graduates at all.

  8. Newmania
    Posted December 30, 2016 at 12:08 pm | Permalink

    Well I find that extremely encouraging. Cromwell , like Ms May soon abandoned the Parliament he was supposedly in favour of and set himself up as a “Lord Protector” ruling without even the form of consent and exterminating opposition .Arch Europhile Winston Churchill saw him clearly as a military dictator .

    The good bit is that after the consequences of this unpleasant interlude were clear a Royal family was quickly reinstalled and The Royalists had his corpse dug up, hung in chains, and beheaded.

    Watch out Mr Redwood

    • Anonymous
      Posted December 30, 2016 at 7:28 pm | Permalink

      It is a mistake and incorrect to speak of the EU Referendum in terms of combat. All was done via debate and via the ballot box and the most well tempered and well mannered were the Brexit side.

      It doesn’t surprise me that you relish such a macabre retribution because a vote is not to your liking. (I make a comment about you later in this thread, please look for it. )

    • zorro
      Posted December 30, 2016 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

      Cromwell suffered the Rump Parliament for long enough following the Civil War – four years or more…..

      ‘Cromwell commanded the Speaker to leave the Chair, and told them they had sat long enough, unless they had done more good, crying out “You are no longer a Parliament, I say you are no Parliament”. He told Sir Henry Vane he was a Jugler [sic]; Henry Martin and Sir Peter Wentworth, that they were Whoremasters; Thomas Chaloner, he was a Drunkard; and Allen the Goldsmith that he cheated the Publick: Then he bid one of his Soldiers take away that Fool’s Bauble the mace and Thomas Harrison pulled the Speaker of the Chair; and in short Cromwell having turned them all out of the House, lock’d up the Doors and returned to Whitehall.’

      But fear not, it was replaced by the Barebones Parliament within a month…. a more representative assembly….

      zorro

    • libertarian
      Posted December 30, 2016 at 9:19 pm | Permalink

      Newmania

      1) The 2016 Civil war appeared to be won by the people against our current parliament !

      2) Churchill was NOT a Europhile, he was in favour of the little countries of Europe banding together, not Great Britain and the much larger and more successful Commonwealth joining in.

  9. bigneil
    Posted December 30, 2016 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    You mention democracy – most of this country want no more uncontrolled mass immigration – unfortunately our concerns are not being listened to.
    It is clear our govt will dictate to us whether we can have democracy or not. It seems not.

  10. Peter VAN LEEUWEN
    Posted December 30, 2016 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    Point taken . . .
    Although, ironically: “Britain was already independent, in fact it is what many countries celebrate their independence FROM!” (source: John Oliver in “Last Week Tonight”) 🙂

    • Anonymous
      Posted December 30, 2016 at 7:35 pm | Permalink

      Please keep posting, Peter. I agree with you that we must avoid creating an echo chamber here and that a diversity of views is welcome. Also the opportunity to debunk the other’s claims or – better still – not have to bother at all !

      (I don’t use emoticons. I fear they might come across as annoying.)

  11. Iain Gill
    Posted December 30, 2016 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

    Everywhere I’ve been these holidays people are frustrated we are not leaving fast enough or being hard nosed enough.

  12. Little Englander
    Posted December 30, 2016 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

    If I understand it correctly 4 anonimous individuals have launched or will launch a legal challenge in an endeavour to stop or delay the UK from leaving the EEA although they or their Legal Representation have used different language to say the same thing basically. It is alleged that their Legal Advisors have said ” These are ordinary working men and women who have decided to make their futures in the UK and wish the UK to be their permanent home”. IF they are Foreign Nationals they have no rights in determining in which direction the UK goes, what Parliamentary process it goes through or what timescale is applied – this is the perogative of the UK Government, Parliament and British Nationals through Democratic process and it is NOT for challenge by interventionist Foreign Nationals IF indeed that is what they are. The Principle is the point to be taken here not the actual
    Challenge because if I am not mistaken once the UK leaves the EU the UK automatically leaves the EEA? Foreign Nationals in this Country are Guests or Guest Workers and we welcome them here as such.

    • zorro
      Posted December 30, 2016 at 7:36 pm | Permalink

      Pure impudence on their part. Imagine us going to live in France and telling them that they could not alter their system!

      zorro

    • Peter VAN LEEUWEN
      Posted December 31, 2016 at 10:24 am | Permalink

      @Little Englander: Actually, foreigners, residing in the UK also have rights, whether you like it or not.
      You should really leave it up to your courts whether or not the case can be brought and leave it to them to pass judgement. It is not all so black and white, I think. For instance, if I had been the woman many English newspapers reported about (“Dutch woman with two British children told to leave UK after 24 years”) and which advise you to google and read, I would take my case to court. This case and others doesn’t really reflect too well on the level of competence of your Home Office and its ministers, wouldn’t you agree?

      • Anonymous
        Posted December 31, 2016 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

        The deportation of Dutch and (as it happens) Australian and Canadian smacks of judicial activist’s “well you wanted control of immigration !”

        Hence the EU question has brought a People Vs Judiciary situation in the UK instigated by the Remain side (Gina Millar.)

        The one thing we do n0t trust is UK courts.

        UK courts and their morally repugnant decisions (under the aegis of the EU) are what have caused Brexit above all other reasons.

        • Peter VAN LEEUWEN
          Posted January 1, 2017 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

          @Anonymous: As far as I’m concerned the courts are quite OK.
          The problem, in my view is that they don’t pander to populist policy, and the last decade populism has been rising (Wilders, Farage, the physically sick Cameron, Theresa who “May” be against torture but how inconvenient when this prohibits the expulsion of Abu Qatada, etc. etc.) Read on BBC: Are we heading towards a ‘post human rights world’?

  13. MigrantenWillkommen
    Posted December 30, 2016 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

    There are one or two Remoaner MPs who are troublemakers. Most seem genuine, which is even more annoying. Why should anyone be an MP if they do not really understand politics? What can be going through the minds of Anna Soubry and Ben Bradshaw? They should not be allowed to sit together. They probably set each other off. Both are close to tears whenever the EU is mentioned. Someone should tell them they can still go on visits to EU-land. Especially Germany. Anyone can go there. Absolutely anyone on earth and stay happily ever after with welfare benefits for years.

    Some non-MP guy from Belgium is said to be distraught. He has lived here for 25 years. Has a family here and the Home Office has mistakenly rejected his application to stay permanently and told him to leave the UK. The media and the Labour/Liberals have jumped on the story of course. Jeez, as if the Home Office has the wherewithal to remove anyone anyway even legitimately.

    I know EU nation state persons cannot claim asylum here whilst we are a member. But after we leave the EU they could apply for asylum. That guy from Belgium and his British family will probably end up housed in a 5 star luxury hotel for years. He can rent his house out or sell it. If the hotel is in Islington, he could probably live the rest of his life out without the local council knowing a thing about him even if he were elected Mayor or MP. In fact who are the MPs for Islington? Do they sound foreign? Does their language make sense? Are they all for foreigners? That would be a dead giveaway for sure! They should join the LibDem Party. No-one would believe a sensible foreigner with at least five years of formal education would join that outfit.

  14. Edward.
    Posted December 30, 2016 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

    Mr. Redwood,

    I think we need to fast forwards from the civil war metaphorically speaking and imho the battle though it was a attempted to pitch it between outers and remainers. Actually, was never fought between fellow countrymen, indubitably I defend their rights to vote – anyway that they would like, what was heartening, not only the result of the June Plebiscite, was the turn out. If ‘they’ dare to go against the people’s wishes then, casting metaphors about and concerning the English civil war might just be closer to the fact.

    I think more in terms of a Revolution, where the British people are fighting against an establishment who for far too long have taken us for granted and even despise our opinion, certainly the ‘Powers that be’ in all that they do are light years away from what the British people actually thirst for and require.

    What do we require?

    An executive who act primarily only for the greater benefit of all Britons.

    We do not wish to be seen as open house for all the world, we have enough people living here, it is said and rightly too, we have more than enough.

    As the great and the good tell us all the time, computers, Information Technology will increasingly make manual labour a sepia tinted memory, thus why is it, in the same breath, do the majority of the political claque tell us – we still need large numbers of new immigrants – there must be some other agenda, is it not?

    We are as a nation living so far beyond our means, borrowing money to splurge on foreign aid but not spend it on what is urgently required ie the armed forces, care for our elderly, etc seems deliberately provocative.
    As the Indian and Chinese leaders know full well, to be a successful economy it only can work because of, plentiful and cheap energy. We beg, why at a time of economic crisis beckoning are the Westminster claque so determined to pursue energy policies which will only succeed in closing what little manufacturing base remains on these shores and to making domestic supply so expensive – that only the rich will be able to afford to keep the lights on 24/7. Again I beg, how is that helping?

    Forthwith, “we the people” urgently require Britain to remove itself from the leg irons of the Brussels Federal entity, for a start we can no longer afford the fees enforced payment, to what is plainly a failing, an incipient financial catastrophe.

    We will keep the muskets primed, until we have a satisfactory answer and just in case, metaphorically speaking, natch.

  15. Lifelogic
    Posted December 30, 2016 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    Indeed fighting for our democracy. A democracy that 3/4 of the Tory Party, all the Libdems and most of the Labour party were giving away. This without any authority from the people so to do. Many like Cast Iron Cameron, Heath, May, Major and Osborne were all clearly prepared to blatantly lie to try to trick the electorate into a remain vote. This all cheered on by the appallingly biased BBC (and still appalling biased), most lawyers, most charities and most of the overpaid (and rather over pensioned) state sector.

    Mainly to the cost of the 80% in the private sector whose taxes support them, whose wages were depressed by open door non-selective immigration. Depressing UK living standards hugely with endless red tape, CAP, fishing, energy and other such bonkers interventionist bureaucratic lunacies.

  16. Adam
    Posted December 30, 2016 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    Of course the next step is an imperialistic coalition, capitalist law based societies remaking the world in our image. Imagine the genocides which can be prevented, the warlords that can be stopped and the drug cartels than can be destroyed. The lack of private wealth in these countries, created by the enslavement of the good people to the rule of genocidal criminals there, has made us all poorer. The socialist ideology has been a drastic failure everywhere, Venezuela is the lastest example of the absurd, and good hard working law abiding people will eventually need to stand against it in order to undo the damage of the post imperialistic era. The war on terror should be just the start in this, it was the Communists who created terrorism in the first place with the PLO.

  17. Anonymous
    Posted December 30, 2016 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    A ‘civil war without the muskets’

    I hear this sort of talk a lot – usually it takes these forms:

    “The people have revolted”

    “The establishment has been overthrown”

    These statements are patently untrue. The people voted. They used the ballot box to reverse a situation that they were unhappy with. A revolt and an overthrowing is done by violence and disobedience and Leave voters have done neither – they have been models of patient, law-abiding and tolerant democrats. They are never ever credited for this.

    Remainers still have it largely their way, in fact. They will not allow Brexit and if it is implemented they will scorch the earth in the manner of Obama.

    They won’t get the violence or disobedience (not directly at least) but this doesn’t mean that they haven’t provoked it. If Newmania speaks as he writes then he should perhaps ponder that he’s still on his feet and maybe the Brexiters aren’t the oafs that he assumes them to be.

    • acorn
      Posted December 31, 2016 at 10:00 am | Permalink

      So, which anonymous comment is Anonymous? I don’t comment on anonymous comments as a rule. Come to think of it, I could comment anonymously; d’oh.

      BTW. Did you see Europe Elects, ‏(Dec 29 poll), claims all member states would now vote to remain in the EU. Greece and UK have the lowest remain vote. UK, EU membership referendum, DYM poll: Remain: 54% (+8), Leave: 46% (-8).

      The longer Brexit gets kicked into the future, the more likely there will be a demand for a second referendum with a “remain” result.

      • Anonymous
        Posted December 31, 2016 at 6:08 pm | Permalink

        Acorn – Well one thing you can be certain is that I don’t post here for the glory.

        So take your pick. I’m either modest or I’m a coward. (I’m both actually)

        • Anonymous
          Posted December 31, 2016 at 6:10 pm | Permalink

          PS, I’m not interested in other states. I don’t wish to interfere or stick my nose into them. We do not need a second referendum here so let’s not discuss it.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 31, 2016 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

      The remainers (like dithering broken compass Theresa) are still in charge alas. I doubt the UK will really fully escape the anti democratic, socialist lunacy of the EU under May and Hammond. Even if they actually wanted to they do not seem to have the drive, vision or ability.

      They are clearly still working with the lefty broken compass of Cameron and Osborne.

      I am not sure I can forgive Michael Gove for his idiotic knifing of Boris, and indeed himself.

  18. Mike Wilson
    Posted December 30, 2016 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    Could you provide a link to your speech on 24th May – it’s always nice to read sane, reasoned arguments for leaving the EU. If one indulges in reading certain newspapers one can be a little overwhelmed and start to be influenced by the ‘group think’ and the ‘no idea of the truth’ atmosphere there that seems to think the end of the world is nigh.

    Reply Judt type puppet parliament into search on ths blog

  19. ian wragg
    Posted December 30, 2016 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

    Yes and that was just the first battle.
    We are riddled with 5th columnists in the establishment and they refuse too surrender.
    If things don’t change I fear muskets will have to be deployed.

    • zorro
      Posted December 30, 2016 at 7:34 pm | Permalink

      You are right, and they are undermining with every ounce of strength that they have! We must be determined to not let them succeed….

      zorro

  20. Bob
    Posted December 30, 2016 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

    @Mr Redwood

    Are you aware of plans to integrate the British armed forces including policy, procurement, funding, intelligence services, command structure and defence research within the new EU military project?

    • matthu
      Posted December 30, 2016 at 8:35 pm | Permalink

      Do you mean the plans that the Government are supposed to have already signed up to? Another one of Clegg’s fantasies coming to fruition.

  21. Original Richard
    Posted December 30, 2016 at 7:25 pm | Permalink

    I do not believe it will be possible to leave the EU without first electing a Parliament which is composed of a majority of MPs who will vote to leave.

    A referendum will not be suffcient.

    • Leslie Singleton
      Posted December 30, 2016 at 11:48 pm | Permalink

      Dear Original–So MPs straightforwardly give the people the power to make the decision then according to you they get to vote again because they disagree with the result. Sounds crazy to me especially as I increasingly see no reason for MPs in the first place. “This is the way we do it” seems increasingly irrelevant. The whole basis of our governance needs to be revisited so that referenda are included and taken account of sensibly without being second-guessed.

  22. zorro
    Posted December 30, 2016 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    Who will be our Cromwell?

    zorro

    • Mick
      Posted December 30, 2016 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

      Farage

    • Rosemary Biscuit
      Posted December 31, 2016 at 2:35 am | Permalink

      Richard Harris was good at being Crowwell but he is dead as well.

  23. BrexiteerwivMusket
    Posted December 30, 2016 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

    Muskets … a bit primitive. There can be no logical draw to the EU opinionate.
    Offer the Remoaners a bribe. Tell them we are forming another kind of EU but democratic including Canada, Nordic and Baltic countries with a “special relationship” oil, gas, peace and mobility of labour deal with Russia.
    That there will be very highly tax-free payments to “Commissioners” nudge-nudge, wink-wink. They are bound to fall for it. If not, show them pretty photos of Russian models. Just so long as they give us a break and stop moaning like a cow lamenting the loss of her sprightly young bull made bullock.

  24. NA
    Posted December 30, 2016 at 8:11 pm | Permalink

    I cannot work Michael Gove out.

  25. Prigger
    Posted December 30, 2016 at 8:13 pm | Permalink

    ” Pinned Tweet
    Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump 28m minutes ago
    Great move on delay (by V. Putin) – I always knew he was very smart!”

    Donald is more the President of America than the guy flitting in three weeks time

  26. Ed Mahony
    Posted December 30, 2016 at 8:30 pm | Permalink

    Human beings seem to make the same mistakes over and over again, since the time of Adam and Eve to now, including the English Civil War. Until everyone turns to God more, history will simply repeat itself over and over again. God is real. And is the only way to avoid making the mistakes of the past, whatever your politics, and to embrace all the blessings he has planned for us.
    If everyone turns to God even more, 2017 will simply be a better year than 2016. Simple as that. More peace. More joy. More love. And more sense of fulfilment overall.
    Best wishes for 2017

    • libertarian
      Posted December 31, 2016 at 11:51 am | Permalink

      Ed Mahony

      Enlighten us which of the more than 370 Gods are we supposed to turn to?

      Thor is my favourite by the way…. nice hammer

      One of the biggest mistakes people make over and over again is believing in fantasy figures such as gods. “Gods” being the biggest cause of all of the terror and conflicts in the world right now .

      • Ed Mahony
        Posted December 31, 2016 at 4:44 pm | Permalink

        @Libertarian,

        Except that your argument is binary!
        99% of people who believe in a Deity, would reject your binary argument (which means, in effect, you’re having an argument with yourself not with others – not with what others believe).
        Most religious people (except fanatics – but then you get fanatics who both believe in God and who reject belief in God and other types of fanatics nothing to do with religion) believe there is a crossover in belief between different religions. In particular, over things such as Divine Love, Divine Peace, Divine Joy, Divine Truth – giving believers a taste of these things in this life, and perfectly in the next after death.
        So the question isn’t then do religions share common beliefs – Yes. The real question is – which is the most true or The True Religion?
        Regarding those who don’t follow the truest religion, God looks at them regarding to how they’ve responded to what is true in their own religion. And the more he reveals to people, the more he expects from them.
        So the C of E and the Catholic Church believe, for example, that you don’t have to be a Christian to be holy and go to Heaven – HOWEVER they mustn’t directly reject Christianity if Christianity has been clearly presented to them in their lives AND ALSO they are still saved by the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross even if unaware of this.
        I hope this answers your question a bit. Thanks for responding. Lastly, i would just like to say that I used to think the exact same as you and i had thousands of other reasons for questioning religion. But the more i discover, the more i learn how different religion actually is to what i thought it to be. And it’s all good (true religion which for me is Christianity – although I’m a traditionalist not a ‘born again’), resulting in extraordinary, profound sense of Peace, Joy, Love, Truth, Beauty, Everything-makes-sense, Feeling-alive and so on.

        • Ed Mahony
          Posted December 31, 2016 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

          And followers of Christ believe Christianity is the true religion because:
          1) Of the extraordinary nature and life of Christ as found in the Gospels.
          2) The extraordinary results of those who have followed Christ faithfully.
          And more.
          But the key to discovering oneself is to read the Gospels with an open mind accompanied by prayer such as the Our Father.
          Best wishes.

      • Ed Mahony
        Posted December 31, 2016 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

        Lastly, the Catholic Church makes the best, most consistent sense to me, and its sacraments bring greatest peace and happiness. I’m happiest in the Catholic Church but also have much time and respect for Orthodox Christians and Protestants as well.
        (And apologies for coming over strident in my comments, this is a personal defect nothing to do with religion ..).

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted December 31, 2016 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

      The Civil War was largely driven by people who had turned to God in a big way!

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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