The Brexit Bill and the bill for Brexit

The government is pressing on with Brexit preparation. Labour now say they wish to amend the Bill and maybe even vote against it. That’s strange as they put an identical Bill into their Manifesto. Their overriding request that all EU employment rules become good UK law will be met by the Bill as drafted. The government can win the votes without them if needed. Their own Leave voters will be right to ask why they are doing this after their promises, and after their vote to send the Article 50 letter.

There are still too many UK interests wanting to give ground on paying money to the EU. The legal position is clear. We only owe our regular contributions up to the date of departure. We do not have to pay extra to trade. If they insist the only way they can make us do that is by imposing WTO tariffs. That would be a far cheaper route for us than them, and far cheaper than any of these so called bills they have been talking about.

Under WTO tariffs the UK government would gain around £12bn of tariff revenue at the expense of UK consumers, which it could give back as tax cuts.

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152 Comments

  1. Freeborn John
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 5:09 am | Permalink

    The FT is today reporting the Uk is making another climb down on the ‘exit fee’. The FT’s previous reports of one-sided concessions by the UK have proved accurate.

    The UK government clearly don’t know how to negotiate, are not making decisions based on the pros and cons relative to the ‘walk-away’ position of WTO tarrifs and also are grossly misreading public opinion if they believe they can be so profligate with taxpayers money as to hand these vast sums over to Brussels with no legal requirement to do so.

    • zorro
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 7:20 am | Permalink

      Oh but according to the OBR, an extra £100 bn for an exit fee is no problem for the public finances but Brexit is existentially of course! It is incredible how deep this insidious vein is embedded in this country…..

      zorro

      • Hope
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 9:55 am | Permalink

        If the U.K. Pays a vast sum to the EU after the recent public service funding outcry the politicos will not be forgiven, moreover the Tory govt will be toast. Similarly we read 15 Tory MPs in talks with Labour to derail the repeal bill. Tories will be in opposition for decades.

        We voted to leave the EU. No money, secure our borders, create our own laws, our courts to be supreme. If MPs do not want this job step down because that is your job description following the civil war taking the power away from the king.

        Kier Starmer should be resigning he does not want any of this, Sam for Soubry.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 10:00 am | Permalink

        Indeed but May & Hammond are happy to tax borrow and throw away about £100bn on HS2 and lots of other total stupidities, so is probably happy with this too. Let us just hope we get a real Brexit and avoid the even more insane Corbyn agenda too.

        Not easy from here, now that T May has made such a fist of it.

        We need some lower tax, pro jobs, cut red tape, pro growth, uplifting vision – something T May simply does not understand.

      • Freeborn John
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 10:57 am | Permalink

        £100bn is more than twice the cost of HS2, more than 5 times the cost (in todays money of the Channel Tunnel), the equivalent of 30 years of the Highway England budget for building and maintaining the entire Mitorway and Trunk road network, or 25 times the market capitalisation of British Airways. It is a serious amount of money with no treaty basis to hand over a penny. The government has got to learn to say “No” in these negotiations or the EU will simply demand more. The demand has already climbed because of the silence from the Uk but if the UK were to agree this we will find more enormous yearly demands for the dubious privilege of being a “fax democracy” in the EEA single market and ever thereafter. The Uk has got to assert itself.

    • Hope
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 7:46 am | Permalink

      Is Canada or Japan paying vast sums, it is so stupid even to entertain as a serious proposal. If it is walk away.

      Labour have nicrease tuition fees in Wales only weeks after claiming to abolish them!

      • Lifelogic
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 10:04 am | Permalink

        Perhaps tell them we will pay them what ever we raise by taxing their exports to us less whatever we have to pay to export to them. Or far simpler we will just agree free mutual trade both ways, it is up to them.

      • JoolsB
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 10:22 am | Permalink

        Only by a few hundred and still coming in around £4,000 unlike the tripling of them to £9,000 for English kids. But then of course the Welsh Assembly can make their own decisions quite separate to what the UK parliament does as does the Scottish Government meaning when Labour, Conservative and Lib Dum politicians in the UK parliament speak of their plans for the NHS or education/tuition fees etc, even those MPs representing non-English constituencies, they mean England, not that you’ll ever hear the word England coming out of their mouths of course.

        Ain’t democracy great?

        • Original Richard
          Posted July 14, 2017 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

          [Tuition Fees] “Only by a few hundred and still coming in around £4,000 unlike the tripling of them to £9,000 for English kids.”

          Isn’t the figure currently £9000 in Wales rising to £9295 in 2018 ?

          http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-40568065

          • JoolsB
            Posted July 15, 2017 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

            No, students in Wales currently pay £3,465 for their tuition fees. Students from Wales only pay £3,465 even when studying alongside £9,000 fee pay English students at English universities and they only pay 3,465 when studying at a Scottish university. Only English kids pay £9,000 tuition fees in every part of the United Kingdom. And our politicians try to tell us we are one nation!!

          • a-tracy
            Posted July 17, 2017 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

            These Welsh and Scottish graduates don’t even pay the 9% student graduation tax when they take graduate jobs in England after studying, so they sit next to English students paying 9% more tax over £21k for 30 years! This isn’t going to be equitable moving forward. The current Welsh and Scottish taxpayers don’t pay any more tax than the English taxpayers to pay for this, they are adding to UK DEBTS and the deficit by borrowing money they can’t afford to pay for this. Their Scottish MPs voted this English tuition fee tax for the English with Tony Blair in power

    • Keynes
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 7:49 am | Permalink

      It is striking that Mr Redwood’s claims about how easy it will all be are proving fanciful. But it’s easy to stand on the sidelines and tell everyone how the UK will do just fine when it falls off the cliff edge, the people who have to do the hard negotiating have to live in the real world.

      • Prigger
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 9:37 am | Permalink

        Keynes
        So you can be counted upon to back wholeheartedly the Brexit negotiators ( the British ones ) in struggling against the mighty EU which rejoices in our being caught for ever in its economic and political web without any means of escape due to our pathetic weakness.

      • Hope
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 10:04 am | Permalink

        This is the out of touch Westminster bubble. Making claims what the public think when they are so far from reality.

        These negotiations are not hard. Should take a few days. We are leaving do they want to trade free from tariffs or not. As for citizens rights and such nonsense the rest of the world rolls on with visas and the like. My son has been living and working in the US for two years. No problem. He abides by the US rules. In future citizens abide by our rules. The US will not succumb to the ECJ or ECHR if he transgresses their rules! He abides by their border controls, he pays their taxes and he pays for his health treatment. None is free. Does any country pay to trade or pay if they leave a treaty i.e. Paris agreement, any demands from the US ? It is such stupid Westminster nonsense out of touch with the U.K. Public and out of touch with the world. There is life beyond the corrupt dictatorship called the EU.

        Lord Odonis should be sacked and there should be rules for him to be sacked as peer. Why Cameron made another socialist appointment rather than a Tory speaks volumes for the swing to the left Tories.

        • Stred
          Posted July 16, 2017 at 7:02 am | Permalink

          Adonis brought us HS2 linking to HS1 with a moving footpath and a 50+bn bill for a train that will always need subsidy. Yet May defends his foul insults .

      • Dennis Zoff
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 10:16 am | Permalink

        “UK will do just fine when it falls off the cliff edge”

        What experience/evidence have you to suggest the UK will be falling off the cliff edge after Brexit?

        • Anonymous
          Posted July 14, 2017 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

          If anything we went off the ‘cliff edge’ because of the EU. The millennials ended up brassic long before Brexit.

          Remainers will lie and lie that Brexit caused it.

          • Dennis Zoff
            Posted July 14, 2017 at 11:28 pm | Permalink

            Keynes appears to be our resident Remoaner troll!

            Ask a question, such as “please provide solid reasons for remaining in the EU” nothing?….try to explain in the simplest terms with irrefutable facts, and what we receive in return is deliberate abstruse fallacies.

            Keynes appears unable to follow logic and never brings an erudite, researched argument to the table; other than claptrap soundbites!

            Therefore, I must conclude, this individual is simply a Straw Man and a rather bad one at that…and should, at the very least, have the editorial oxygen revoked!

          • Anonymous
            Posted July 15, 2017 at 6:54 am | Permalink

            To Dennis Zoff

            Perhaps Keynes might read this article:

            http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/828058/EU-Brussels-European-Union-Brexit-bill

            Remainers keep telling us how wonderful things are in the EU.

        • Dennis Zoff
          Posted July 16, 2017 at 6:43 pm | Permalink

          To Anonymous

          Remainers generally have no clue about European/EU current affairs!

          Their sciolistic knowledge and puerile ignorance results in asinine comments that have no substance. This is at the very core of my frustration with them!

      • sm
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 10:20 am | Permalink

        My reading of Mr Redwood’s comments over the past year is that Brexit ‘could’ be straightforward if negotiators behave sensibly, not that it ‘would’ be.

      • Freeborn John
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 10:58 am | Permalink

        There is no cliff edge. We are currently paying an EU budget contribution equivalent to a 7% tariff to avoid actual tarrifs that only average 3%.

        • DaveM
          Posted July 14, 2017 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

          Indeed – WE are paying them, as opposed to the multinationals which are reaping the profits.

        • Anonymous
          Posted July 14, 2017 at 3:58 pm | Permalink

          Freeborn – Not to mention unmentioned tarrifs (costs) in welfare, NHS payments etc to people who have not paid taxes here. Freedom of movement is effectively a tarrif for successful EU economies.

      • zorro
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 11:15 am | Permalink

        Is all our trade with non EU countries conducted outside the blessed internal market on a ‘cliff edge’? If so, why is that trade increasing faster than our trade with the EU? Is our trade with the EU sinking below the sea in relative terms?

        Can you please state what percentage increase to UK trade has occurred as a result of our adherence to the Single Market?

        zorro

    • Mockbeggar
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 8:32 am | Permalink

      I try to follow the news on Brexit as closely as I can, but I cannot recall ever having seen a breakdown of this convenient round number (100 bn Euros) – the so-called exit fee. What is it that we are supposed to owe and for what? If we knew that, we could challenge each element and, with luck, the UK public will come to see that this is a ‘fake’ or, should I say, ‘trumped up’ bill.

      I know you’re a busy public figure Mr Redwood, so perhaps one of our best informed contributors, Denis, on this site could help out on this one. I’d be much obliged if you could, Denis.

      • bratwurst
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

        100 billion is an invention of the UK media. The EU has never put a number to any settlement – the first stage of negotiations is to agree the methodology of calculating any settlement.
        Some politicians from the EU member states have made comment on the potential amount but that just shows they are as ignorant and uninformed as our own politicians.

        • Denis Cooper
          Posted July 15, 2017 at 8:05 am | Permalink

          It is an invented number, one of several, which sections the UK media such as the Times and the FT have not necessarily invented themselves but rather claim to have learned from EU sources who may well have been the real inventors. These and other newspapers choose to act as the mouthpiece of Brussels in the UK. As the government has been told by legal experts there is a strong argument that the UK will have no legally binding financial obligations at all if it leaves the EU without an agreement saying otherwise. However politically there is a case for agreeing some payment as a gesture of goodwill to the peoples of the other EU countries.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 9:14 am | Permalink

      It seems that governments (and indeed local authorities) just love throwing other people’s money down the drain, be it Hinkley C, HS2, the EU, Greek or Irish bail outs, largely corrupt overseas aid, green crap subsidies or the £500K moronic road junction in Cambridge.

      That is just what the state sector likes to do, that and tax, licence, fine or just inconvenience the productive at every turn.

      What sensible person would choose Nicky Morgan as Chair of the Treasury Committee over Jacob Rees-Mogg?

      Does Morgan know the first thing about finance and economics? I remember when Morgan even declared that a High court ruling that religious teaching should be pluralistic, and that therefore it was unlawful to exclude teaching about atheism and humanism, should be ignored – as UK religious traditions are mainly Christian.

    • NickC
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 9:58 am | Permalink

      Freeborn, You express my frustration with the government exactly. Why do we always – always – give away concessions? So much and so early. It’s just self flagellation, not negotiation. Or maybe it’s the civil service (Remains to a man and woman) running rings round Mrs May?

      Turn the tables, before it’s too late. Stand up for the UK for a change. We should call for the EU to give up its sovereignty to us, and be ruled from London subject to our Supreme Court, in exchange for free access to the UK market. Perhaps the EU should pay the UK an entry fee for access too.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 1:43 pm | Permalink

      “The UK government clearly don’t know how to negotiate”

      The UK government, and most especially David Davis’s department, clearly don’t know how to swat down the utter tripe which is being constantly spread around in the media, or they just can’t be bothered to do so, or worst of all they are deliberately allowing public support for Brexit to be eroded so that at some point it can be decided that we won’t be leaving the EU after all.

      • a-tracy
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 4:19 pm | Permalink

        I think you’re correct Denis.

      • Dennis Zoff
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 11:37 pm | Permalink

        This may be so, but it is a very dangerous strategy to undertake? 17+Million individuals are very interested in the eventual outcome and will not take kindly to a politically mendacious stitch-up!

  2. Duncan
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 5:14 am | Permalink

    This statement from a recent World Bank document highlights why there is absolute no need to fear being outside of the EU and its so called single ‘market’ or more accurately a rigged market that revolves around the needs of and to the benefit of the German economy

    ‘According to the World Bank, the UK attracted $300bn in FDI (foreign direct investment) funding during 2016, against $320bn for the Eurozone economies as a whole’

    Regarding Labour, there is surely plotters on all sides who are determined to derail the Brexit process, that much is a given but Labour and their allies are a special breed of political animal who will do and say almost anything for political gain

    The BBC also represent a huge threat. They are the UK’s main agent of change and are even more intransigent and determined to circumvent direct democracy and the EU referendum

    The way forward for the UK (maybe a link-up with Ireland) is exit the EU, slash business and personal taxes, remove trade barriers both internal and external and become the next Taiwan. Our flexibility and economic dynamism will leave continental economies trailing

    • Lifelogic
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 9:18 am | Permalink

      “Our flexibility and economic dynamism will leave continental economies trailing”, indeed a good plan but you are never going to get this under Chairman May and all the other (perhaps 50%) socialists who are Tory MPs are you?.

    • Tabulazero
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 11:33 am | Permalink

      Well… since you seem to be heading for Socialism in one Nation, you should not expect FDI to remain at such an elevated level.

      Also, do not underestimate Whitehall’s skill a creating red tape on its own given its track record at gold plating everything that comes out of the EU.

      • Anonymous
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

        True.

        Tabulazero. I am sorry that we find ourselves here and that the greatest disatisfaction that the British public have with the EU is the version delivered to us via Whitehall and its blaming of the EU whenever things went wrong “We are hamstrung by the EU and its courts.” ie extradition of hate preachers.

        The British stand accused of xenophobia against Europeans but the reverse is truth and we have great affection for our neighbours.

        The whole thing is very sad.

        • Dennis Zoff
          Posted July 15, 2017 at 11:56 am | Permalink

          …..at Government level perhaps.

          I personally, have not experienced or heard any anti-British sentiments from the regular European people during my frequent travels there, or from my family, friends and colleagues in Germany, France, Italy, Hungary, Poland and Holland…quite the opposite…..in fact there is a grudging admiration for the UK, for having the temerity to go against the EU establishment….something, I believe, they wish for themselves!

          • Tabulazero
            Posted July 17, 2017 at 10:34 am | Permalink

            Frankly ? I do not think so.

            Look at the recent election in the Netherlands, Austria or France. All the populist anti-EU parties lost and in the case of France, lost badly.

            Brexit has acted as a catalyst in Europe.

            In between, diplomatic isolation at the European level, a botched election, the Grenfell fire aftermath, cabinet infighting spilling in the open and daily rumours about plots to unseat Theresa May, Brexit as seen from the continent does not appear to be very exciting proposition.

            Even the Front National is putting into question its stance on leaving the Euro which has been a corner stone of its manifesto for years.

  3. Mick
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 5:23 am | Permalink

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/828472/brexit-betrayal-labour-tory-keep-uk-bound-free-movement-after-brexit-conservative-eu
    I hope this is fake news along with all the other anti Brexit news that keeps coming out, and am I the only one who is fed up of hearing politicians from all sides saying they respect the vote of the people on the referendum they don’t full stop, don’t take us for mugs we put you in power and we can get you out

  4. Keynes
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 5:39 am | Permalink

    So, in short, your plan for Brexit is to introduce the type of protectionist tariffs that we got rid of decades ago and a result to force up prices of consumer goods, so as to inject a huge inflationary impetus into our economy. Genius!

    • Roy Grainger
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 7:03 am | Permalink

      We already have massive protectionist tariffs, particularly on food, against non-EU countries via our membership of the EU customs union.

      • Know-dice
        Posted July 17, 2017 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

        And don’t forget where 80% of those external tariffs end up…in Brussels.

        At least when we are free of the EU any tariff barriers that need to be put up (and hopefully there will not be many) will end up going to the UK

    • zorro
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 7:25 am | Permalink

      Get with the picture…. We do NOT want tariffs or trade barriers. We want free trade, it is the EU saying that they don’t want it unless we accept all their political baggage and EU jurisdiction. No way!! We will not sell our country short, JR has explained our options if they don’t see sense, and we won’t lose out. Are you being deliberately obtuse or don’t you understand?

      zorro

      • Lifelogic
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 10:08 am | Permalink

        The Brexit right think & understand, the Remoaners & Lefties just “believe”. Many even believed in Corbyn’s magic money tree, rubber cheque, election promises.

      • Hope
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 10:12 am | Permalink

        Well said. It demonstrates to me how stupid Keir Starmer’s comments about the Repeal Bill are. It also demonstrates why someone with such strong political belief was unfit to be in charge of the CPS. Why would any politician not want control of our own laws and courts? This is remainers having another false spat to try and stay under control of unelected EU elites. If they do not want to be an MP stand down. If they do not want the responsibility of the role stand down. There are far too many in any event. A whipped system telling them what to do and what to vote for. Too many sheep, the flock needs culling.

        Blaire introduced such selection procedures to all public service appointments. The Tories failed to change this institutional left wing bias. When are the Tories going to wake up and start a legacy of their own?

        • Timaction
          Posted July 15, 2017 at 9:09 am | Permalink

          They are not, as they stopped being Tory a long time ago. Cheeks on the same ar**.

    • libertarian
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 8:08 am | Permalink

      Keynes

      Oh no not another one with no idea about business, trade, tariffs and protectionist markets.

      Please do some research before posting your nonsense

    • Leslie Singleton
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 8:48 am | Permalink

      Dear Keynes–To you the rest of the World simply doesn’t exist–except that it does

      • Lifelogic
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 10:10 am | Permalink

        And it is growing far more quickly too.

    • Prigger
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 9:42 am | Permalink

      Keynes
      Yes it seems you are doomed. Try a food bank!

    • alan jutson
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 10:14 am | Permalink

      Keynes

      The EU has tariffs on most goods imported from outside the EU already which the UK consumer pays.
      Examples:
      Frozen beef 85%
      Fresh beef and Lamb 65%
      Butter 50%
      Wine 39%
      Cheese 30%
      Sugar 20%

      If we do not impose such high tariffs on our imports when we leave, then these products plus many thousands of others will be less expensive to the consumer, not more.

  5. Mark B
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 5:58 am | Permalink

    Good morning.

    Under WTO tariffs the UK government would gain around £12bn of tariff revenue at the expense of UK consumers, which it could give back as tax cuts.

    The operative word in that sentence is; ” . . could . . ”

    Personally I’d doubt a penny of our own money will be given back in tax reductions and instead will be used elsewhere and wasted like always.

  6. zorro
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 6:04 am | Permalink

    Agreed – there will be the usual froth and bluster but true ‘outers’ like Corbyn will keep them in check!

    ‘There are still too many UK interests wanting to give ground on paying money to the EU. The legal position is clear. We only owe our regular contributions up to the date of departure. We do not have to pay extra to trade…’

    I find this very frustrating and disheartening that so many fellow citizens would want to score own goals against us by pedalling falsehoods. As you state clearly and both legally within the Treaties, we are only obliged to pay ongoing contributions until our departure date. It makes no economic sense to do otherwise. Fortunately, the EU will be in a position to revise its budget close to the same time we leave, so I suggest that they exercise their minds over the next two years with thinking how they will downsize their expectations or uplift contributions from other countries who will BENEFIT. We won’t BENEFIT so we don’t PAY. Simple as that….

    zorro

    • eeyore
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 8:11 am | Permalink

      Zorro – Do not rely on Mr Corbyn. He is proving a very adept operator and certainly not Mrs May’s useful idiot. Complacent Conservatives never did themselves or the country a worse service than to underestimate him.

      • alan jutson
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 10:20 am | Permalink

        eeyore

        Correct, Corbyn has been practicing his debating skills for decades, and is very skilled at presenting his twisted logic and arguments in a very clever manner, without absolute blatant lies.

        All EU laws are being proposed to be passed through to be laws and regulations to the UK, so what are the Remainers arguing about, I would have thought this was their dream ticket.

      • Mitchel
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

        As Stefan Zweig wrote of Lenin (Tide of Fortune,1927):-

        “How can this obstinate little man ever have become so important”.

  7. alan jutson
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 6:09 am | Permalink

    Politics for politics sake again by those who do not really wish to leave the EU.
    Pathetic absolutely pathetic.

    • Turboterrier.
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 6:55 am | Permalink

      @ alan jutson

      Spot on as always. You forgot the adjective!!

    • Leslie Singleton
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 5:02 pm | Permalink

      Dear Mitchel & others–I believe you are giving Corbyn far too much credit–He is where he is (and where he certainly wasn’t before) solely because of the scarcely believable mishandling (not the calling, which made sense) of the Election by Mrs May. The run up was far too long and the Manifesto beggared description and gratuitously alarmed and literally scared a lot of the people. It was dreamt up in secret by a clueless cabal; and presented as a surprise overnight fait accompli too late in the day for anybody to be able to do much about it except splutter one or two of the (obvious) strongest objections, making the Government look even more inadequate with their last-minute forced (“nothing has changed”) U turns. I am in the camp that says Mrs May should go now which would wipe the slate clean best as possible. If, as it should have done, the Manifesto had said nothing (We were doing very well remember?) except about Brexit, the Election’s purpose, Comrade Corbyn would IMO have lost badly and have been thrown out by now. He is no mystic, nor even close.

      • Mitchel
        Posted July 15, 2017 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

        I think you underestimate what those around him have done in terms of energising the younger voter.It wasn’t just the dismal manifesto or Mrs May’s poor personal performance on the campaign trail.They have captured the moment;whether it lasts until the next election,whenever that is,remains to be seen.If it does,how would you propose to counter it?

        • Leslie Singleton
          Posted July 16, 2017 at 9:06 am | Permalink

          Dear Mitchel–What you call energising I call totally unrealistic unfundable bribery and Yes I do believe that the appeal of this will wear off and soon. Maybe it was fun for the younger voter while it lasted but I have more faith in them than to believe they won’t come to their senses. One could try teaching the kids more of the History of what happens under Left Wing rule–every single time.

  8. Peter Wood
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 6:22 am | Permalink

    Good morning,

    Is it not clear by now that the only objective given to Mr. Barnier is to obtain a departure fee? This has been confirmed on various occasions by Mrs Merkel’s butler and her footman. Verhofstadt (footman) even confirmed that the bureaucracy will not agree terms for persons from EU in UK and vice-versa UNTIL we have agreed to pay a bill. Their concern is for themselves alone; they are a disgrace to humanity.
    We should set out our terms and tell the EU clerks to pass it along the decision makers, and advise us when the political leaders are ready to deal. NO DEPARTURE FEE.

    • jonP
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 8:46 am | Permalink

      Re Peter Wood: We could crash out and pay nothing but then we would be completely alone. It would effect not only our standing with EU countries but countries worldwide and the knock on would be for future trade deals.
      What Barnier says is that we have to pay what we have already agreed to pay plus what we are obliged to pay after 40 years involvement. In a way Verhofstadt is a more powerful figure than Barnier given that he is the EU parliament chief on brexit talks and for everything to be approved and voted on satisfactorily by the EU parliament really depends on him, i might add that he is one of the eu chiefs that has been greatly abused and personally insulted for years by UKIP and other Tory MEPs in the past- i don’t think he is likely to forget- so we better go easy and less of the no departure fee talk.

      • zorro
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

        Haha… we are really scared of Mr Guy V! Please show me in the Treaties where….’we are obliged to pay after 40 years involvement’. Where is that written down or quantified. I think that you will find that it says that we are under obligation to pay until our departure…..

        A happy coincidence in that it is almost at the moment when the EU need to draw up a new budget for the next accounting period. They will have the privilege of either reducing their expenditure or raising the amount paid by other EU countries who will ‘benefit’ from the joint expenditure. The UK won’t benefit as we will no longer be a member so we DON’T pay.

        Do you really think that we UK needs to be worried about the personal feelings of an ex Belgian PM with a dodgy centre parting!?!

        Never mind, all’s well that ends well! 🙂

        zorro

      • Leslie Singleton
        Posted July 15, 2017 at 9:30 pm | Permalink

        Dear Jon–That bit about our being completely alone (and small and weak and friendless blah blah)–Was that a threat or a promise?

    • anon
      Posted July 15, 2017 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

      If only we could “exit” earlier! We know which party & leader to thank for that delay.

      I fully expect “no deal” and if parliament want to frustrate the repeal bill process . Then they will deal with the consequences afterwards and be replaced by a government where election mean more. Hopefully reformed with more direct democracy, which remoaners clearly do not like.

      • Leslie Singleton
        Posted July 15, 2017 at 9:44 pm | Permalink

        Dear anon–I’m with you on more direct democracy. If (God forbid) the Remaniacs manage to twist matters in to more referenda I suggest a couple along lines of, “Should we take back total control of our borders and immigration?” or “Do you agree that the ECJ should have absolutely no say over us?”. Both answers would be at a guess over 90% Yes which should close down in particular the nonsense about what the people did or did not vote for.

  9. Old Albion
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 6:29 am | Permalink

    Unfortunately, history shows that when the EU says we want more (dis)UK money. The Government always pays up, despite a lot of bluster claiming it won’t.

  10. Bryan Harris
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 6:33 am | Permalink

    Dealing with labour is like dealing with a snake that will change its position constantly in order to try and take a bite.

    We badly need at least one other right of centre party to counteract the socialists and to support a decent future for our country, one without labour at the helm.

  11. Nig l
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 6:44 am | Permalink

    Looks like your Minister, Baroness Anelay is one of them in a statement she acknowledged there would have to be a fair settlement in the spirit of close cooperation etc. Sounds like more wriggle room than you and Boris.

  12. Turboterrier.
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 6:53 am | Permalink

    The only thing that the labour party under their present leadership is to force another election. Regarding Brexit, in their minds it is all but on the back burner and the only game in town is get Corbyn into No 10 and destroy the UK in 5 years.

    Sadly for the country there are enough assassin’s on the government back benches that are still totally obsessed with the EU they will do anything to keep us shackled to the failing EU, at it would seem, any price.

    We cannot keep laying on the ground and absorb the kicking being handed out by all and sundry. The Scots and the Welsh have been wheeling and dealing across the water but they seem to forget where and who their main benefactors are. They are only there to muddy the waters to appease their die hard’s back home.

    You are totally right that we should not pay any exit money, too bloody true. We have paid more than enough into the pot and got three fifths of nothing in return. Ed Balls last night still trying to imply we did not understand what we were voting for. Football chant comes to mind “What a load of” There never was a hard or soft exit or staying in the custom union. We voted out no more no less. Farage still at least has fire within, somehow TM might gag at the thought but the country needs that man to be on board PBQ.

    The population are getting weary of this death by a thousand cuts approach and it needs people to either piss or get off the pot and lets JFD. I would hope that all the traitors within the Tory party if they do drag us down will have the whip removed.

    • zorro
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 7:30 am | Permalink

      Fortunately, those ‘assassins’ are venal enough to know that if they don’t tow the line, a nuclear option election could be called and they will be toast!

      zorro

    • JoolsB
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 8:00 am | Permalink

      Well said and how true but this Conservative Government have only got themselves to blame. They have treated their core voters with contempt for far too long and by core voters, I mean the English, the only net contributor to the UK coffers yet the main losers when it comes to public services and doling out the cash and the only ones to see our young saddled with eternal debt and our elderly threatened with a so called dementia tax.

      I despise Labour, the party of spite and envy yet even I am tempted to vote for them if only to release the debt burden from our young and give them a level playing field. UK MPs squatting in English seats, especially Tory ones, have ignored the rotten deal England gets for far too long. They shouldn’t be surprised that England is now beginning to turn it’s back on them too.

      • Anonymous
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 11:28 am | Permalink

        Indeed.

      • Bryan Harris
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 11:48 am | Permalink

        “I despise Labour, the party of spite and envy yet even I am tempted to vote for them if only to release the debt burden from our young and give them a level playing field.”

        Do not imagine for one moment that even if labour reduced that burden, which if memory is correct was imposed by labour, that anybody would benefit financially or otherwise from labour being in power again….

        FGS how many times do labour have to ruin the country before we all realise what a sham they are?

        We badly need a new right of centre political party”

        • JoolsB
          Posted July 15, 2017 at 5:09 pm | Permalink

          Labour ever the hypocrites did indeed introduce tuition fees in England thanks to their Scottish MPs voting for them. The bill would never have passed without them and yet not one word of protest from the then spineless opposition, the Conservative party. It was Cameron who tripled them, not that £9,000 tuition fees will be any hardship to his kids. The whole sorry lot of them are a sham and only out for themselves.

          I agree Labour will ruin the country but it’s time something drastic was done to stop the Conservative party taking the English for granted and treating our kids, sick & elderly with such contempt.

          I say that as an ex Tory activist who now despises them for deliberately ignoring the rotten deal England gets post devolution.

      • Hope
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

        Yep, we had the lies from Cameron over EVEL on the doorstep of number 10. The Tories are heading for decades of opposition. They do not need to swing even further left.

        UKIP took votes from major parties when the threat of the EU, Miliband and Sturgeon was a possibility.

        • Original Richard
          Posted July 15, 2017 at 9:03 am | Permalink

          “UKIP took votes from major parties when the threat of the EU, Miliband and Sturgeon was a possibility.”

          Yes, and I believe that part of the reason for the Conservative’s reduced HOC majority was because they joined in the Labour Party’s mantra that UKIP was no longer needed by the electorate.

          The reduction of the UKIP vote benefited Labour far more than the Conservatives and left the Tories without an ally to pursue a clean Brexit.

    • graham1946
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 8:37 am | Permalink

      There won’t be any removal of the whip under present circumstances no matter what they do. This is why they are emboldened and why Labour are also playing up. Mrs May is totally responsible for this imbroglio and the Tories as usual chose the wrong leader, but as there is nothing else on offer we have to put up with it. After a bit of bluster they will come into line as the fear of another election and the loss of their cushy jobs concentrates minds.

  13. Narrow Shoulders
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 6:55 am | Permalink

    As you write Mr Redwood Labour can be defeated in the commons by the votes your party commands. It will however make great political hay from its claim that giving ministers the ability to amend and throw out laws without oversight is both undemocratic and a moral hazard. A stand I have sympathy for.

    The real issue hiding in the pile of timber is what I read about the devolved administrations being able to veto this law. If true this is astonishing. How can a glorified county council hold up national legislation. If they really can do this and therefore are genuinely autonomous the Barnett formula can be scrapped forthwith.

    • Beecee
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 8:37 am | Permalink

      I would have thought that Mr Corbyn, in his belief that he will be the next Prime Minister, would be delighted, nay, over the moon, with ‘the ability to amend and throw out laws without oversight…’

      He and his party should therefore support the Bill

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

      It’s not “without oversight”, it’s with as much oversight as parliamentarians care to give. The proposal is to use secondary legislation, each item of which will have to be either positively approved by a resolution passed by both houses or at the minimum in the absence of any objection being raised in either House. That is how masses of laws have been passed over the years, in increasing volumes over the decades, and including many laws which have started with the EU. The main problem with this lies in the bad habit of governments to get these measures just nodded through by the few remaining MPs or peers right at the end of the day, but MPs and peers always have notice of what is going to be tabled and the opposition can always get itself organised to oppose and potentially defeat a proposal. It is quite iniquitous that Labour should be taking advantage of a general lack of understanding on the part of the public to pretend that Theresa May wishes to set up some kind of dictatorship when the statute book is replete with secondary legislation passed under Labour governments by the same procedures. On the other hand, it seems that the government can’t be bothered to defend itself and expose Jeremy Corbyn for the charlatan he is.

  14. Ian Wragg
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 6:59 am | Permalink

    Do the politicians who want to derail Brexit realise what a backlash they will face at the ballot box.
    Farage will relentlessly expose the traitors and millions of voters will be incensed by their behaviour.
    It is not unreasonable to expect politicians to become the victims of violence if they betray us.

    • Len Grinds
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 9:19 am | Permalink

      I fully agree. If I were an MP who had promised that the UK would not pay an exit bill, would see the EU cave in and offer us free trade because of the demands of German carmakers, and that we would quickly wrap up deals with the US, Australia, India etc, I would be getting very worried.

      • ian wragg
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 9:57 am | Permalink

        More likely an MP who was elected on a Brexit manifesto as many Labour MPs were would be very worried about another GE if they had voted against it.

      • zorro
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 11:21 am | Permalink

        Have you heard anything to the contrary from the US president or Australian PM? Thought not….

        zorro

      • PaulW
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

        Exactly, that is why liam fox, iain duncan smith and others are showing signs of fraying at the edges. Michael gove has already given himself an opt out by saying everything will work out- provided the right decisions are made??

      • Tabulazero
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 3:12 pm | Permalink

        Well… you will note that many people who sold Brexit to the British people have already removed themselves from politics (Gisela Stuart) or are already arguing that their brand of Brexit has been betrayed (Dominic Cummings).

  15. Epikouros
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 7:13 am | Permalink

    The lefts thought process always difficult to fathom because of it’s inconsistencies and it’s lack of rational logic has now under Corbyn become completely incomprehensible. The bill does exactly what he has demanded but true to form he witlessly states that it does not. Being contrary is obviously a requirement to be a right on social justice warrior and a champion of socialism. It has to be to want to emulate all those socialist states that have either failed or if not in the process of failing. The praise they heap on the likes of the Soviet Union, Cuba and Venezuela is astonishing. The crass stupidity of doing so can only not be obvious to the most intellectually challenged amongst us.

  16. JoolsB
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 7:17 am | Permalink

    All Labour are interested in is power and toppling May’s government because they know that should another general election be called, they will probably win. How on earth did we come to this.?

    • Anonymous
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 11:32 am | Permalink

      It happened because Mrs May is incompetent and overrated. The Tories did not want a Eurosceptic in charge of a Brexit government and so they put her in office.

      The party should have split decades ago. That it didn’t has ruined this country.

  17. agricola
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 7:20 am | Permalink

    I find myself genuinely puzzled. The cabal of remainers/remoaners both within Parliament and without were I thought rapturously enamoured of everything EU. At the centre of their adoration are the thousands of EU laws which have been adopted by successive UK governments. The Bill transfers all said law to UK law. Long term the UK Parliament can change or add to this body of law , but I have heard no sounds off to the effect that there is anything that is planned for change. If there were to be change then the process would be democratic via our own sovereign Parliament.

    My conclusion is that all those running around making negative and threatening statements are doing it for their own selfish purposes. The renta-remoaners because they cannot accept the result of a democratic referendum and the Marxist agitators within the labour party because they believe they can unseat a legitimate government and then from chaos grab power. I would add that any member of the governing party, who for selfish political ends chooses not to support this Bill, should be consigned to the long grass for ever.

    Your analysis of what is really going on in the political bubble would be much appreciated.

    On a totally different topic I read that a technical engineering solution has been found to the noxious diesel engine that so many politicos piled in to lynch in recent months. It involves electrically heating the exhaust fumes as they pass through the catalytic converter and so dramatically reducing any pollutants. Engineering solutions are always better than ill informed panic at a political level.

  18. A.Sedgwick
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 7:30 am | Permalink

    Another day at the wreck the UK office. Why is Barnier allowed to get involved in our internal politics with Corbyn, Keir, Abbott, Sturgeon and Carwyn being used by the increasingly sinister EU. What is the point of MEPs? At least its President put Junker in his place briefly. The negotiation is becoming a farce it should be taken over by the European Parliament.

    As to Andrew Adonis I take great personal exception to his outrageous comments on behalf of my family who fought in both WW1 & 2.

    Increasingly I feel it is time England had an independence vote, the problems of keeping the UK together are ultimately without solution.

  19. stred
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 7:36 am | Permalink

    The performance of ministers and civil servants so far is not reassuring. The advice to make residents rights a bargaining matter was the first needless red herring. Reading the Leave manifesto would have made it clear that we expected reciprocal rights. The decision to agree expenditure on the EU defence force and participate is worrying. How many more expensive agreements have been made behind the public’s back?

    Barnier will be arguing that we have signed up to future plans and that we will be billed for these. Without our money, they will be unable to expand their powers. Mrs May has picked Remainers as ministers and all the civil servants are. We can expect treachery and politicians will need armed protection.

  20. John S
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 8:28 am | Permalink

    Do we not have to pay for pension liabilities and ongoing areas of co-operation like Europol? I know this amount would be well short of the extortionate amount the EU is demanding.

    • anon
      Posted July 15, 2017 at 2:15 pm | Permalink

      No. They will still be employee or pensioners and the employer is responsible.

      Why dont we pay for the private sector pension liabilities, where the government has ongoing co-operation with companies. Is it because the employer is responsible.

  21. WingsOverTheWorld
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 8:31 am | Permalink

    Seems odd. The 52% won the vote, but the Government seems at pains to satisfy the 48.

    • Leslie Singleton
      Posted July 15, 2017 at 9:59 pm | Permalink

      Dear Wings–I had to giggle when I learnt that Cable who says he thought 52% too low to pay heed to in the Referendum thought the same 52% mighty fine and determining in getting him back in to Parliament. Does anybody know why he was knighted when, picking a name at random, Nigel Farage with shedloads of support wasn’t? This latter was IMO another one of this government’s big mistakes.

  22. Posted July 14, 2017 at 8:33 am | Permalink

    The current political situation is proving what an utter disaster May’s hopeless election campaign has turned out to be.

    The full weight of the Remainers are being deployed and are being allowed to make the running while the few voices trying to maintain the course that the country voted for, such as our host, are being drowned out and largely ignored in the media. Why doesn’t the government come out on the offensive ? Just like during the election campaign, Mrs May is losing the argument by default.

    Only this morning on the Today program someone was being interviewed about our leaving Euratom. He was blatantly lying that leaving Euratom would damage up to half a million cancer patients a year because we would not be able to import radio isotopes. This is just another demonstration that there is a well organised successor to Project Fear or is it that it never actually ended, even though it was utterly discredited after the referendum ?

    All the while Labour politicians , and particularly McDonnell, are doing their very best to destabilise the government. Only last night he was calling for the government to stand aside and let Labour rule. As a true Marxist he’s prepared to do and say anything in order to snatch the levers of power but this ludicrous demand went unchallenged by the interviewer ! Why ?

    Finally, I really can’t believe that there are 15 Conservative MPs who are stupid enough to side with Labour in a cynical attempt to defeat the government on FOM.

    John, you will know – could there be ????

    • Chris S
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

      I guess the lack of a reply means that there probably are 15 Lemmings in the Conservative parliamentary party !

      Reply No,the comment was so silly I did not think it merited a reply. Name them. Remember all Conservatives voted to send the Article 50 letter.

      • Leslie Singleton
        Posted July 15, 2017 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

        Dear John–“So silly” in the Torygraph? Surely you didn’t mean that. Besides if it were silly it was the paper not the poster being so.

  23. Chris
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 8:40 am | Permalink

    What, I ask, are you own Conservative MPs doing? This really is the most disgraceful behaviour, displaying utter contempt for the electorate and democracy:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/13/conservative-mps-talks-labour-signing-uk-free-movement-brexit/
    “….At least 15 Conservative MPs are in talks with Labour about a deal which could keep Britain signed up to free movement after it leaves the European Union, the Telegraph can disclose.

    The Tory MPs could back a plan to keep the UK in the European Economic Area after Brexit which would require the UK to accept unlimited numbers of migrants from within the EU.

    The news came as the Government published legislation which will repatriate thousands of Brussels powers to London after Britain leaves the EU in March 2019….”

  24. Norman
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 8:40 am | Permalink

    Perhaps Mrs May could win back a lot of support by refusing to pay any spurious EU claims.

  25. Michael
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 8:44 am | Permalink

    Why should we ask our young men and women to put their lives on the line to defend EU member states against aggressors. Why should we be prepared to spend a huge amounts of money to defend them, if those member states are not even prepared to have tariff free trade with us on reasonable and friendly terms. If they cannot be trade friendly towards us then all bets should be off.

    • James neill
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 1:43 pm | Permalink

      Right at this very moment we have tariff free trade with the other EU 27 countries on reasonable and friendly terms so can’t understand what you’re whinging about. We have decided to leave the EU club for our own reasons so am afraid that we will have to queue up at the tradesmen entrance with the rest of the third world community countries and take our chances..could anything be more clear?

      Reply Why not mention the EU’s need to keep tariff free easy access to our very lucrative market?

      • James neill
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 2:21 pm | Permalink

        Reply to reply..because in brussels political considerations will trump eonomic arguments and logic will fly out the window

        • Know-dice
          Posted July 17, 2017 at 3:12 pm | Permalink

          Whilst at the moment your comment seems to be correct, when push comes to shove I think it will be the loss of jobs in EU land that will tip the balance.

          Trade means jobs…

      • zorro
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

        like USA, Singapore, South Korea, Japan etc….? Do you not understand that the EU exports billions more to us than it imports? So who loses out on the sales? I have to tell you as well in all seriousness that manufacturing products are built and food is grown in soil that exists outside of ze Europaische Union!

        zorro

      • Original Richard
        Posted July 15, 2017 at 9:31 am | Permalink

        “Right at this very moment we have tariff free trade with the other EU 27 countries on reasonable and friendly terms so can’t understand what you’re whinging about.”

        Reasonable terms ?

        We have to :

        Pay a £10bn/year membership fee which will rise as the EU expands to include Albania,Bosnia,Kosovo,Macedonia,Montenegro,Serbia, Ukraine and, if Mr. Cameron had his way, all the “stan” countries as far as the Urals (Kazakhstan speech July 2013).

        Allow unlimited uncontrolled immigration from all EU countries which damages our environment and social cohesion.

        We are having to pay for the building of extra schools, hospitals, infrastructure and services, prisons, etc. as well as paying extra health and welfare costs as we provide for millions of EU migrants.

        Allow the EU the ownership and use of our fishing assets worth £5bn/year.

        Accept loss of sovereignty and hence the ability to elect and remove our governments and make our own laws and trade deals.

        Etc.

        All of this so that we can access the Single Market where we have a £100bn/year trading deficit!

        BTW, our trade with the EU may be “tariff free” but it have never been “non-tariff barrier free”.

  26. Christine
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 8:49 am | Permalink

    The Brexit team need to be more pro-active in getting the positive messages out there. Unfortunately the media always want to put this country down. The way the BBC is allowed to skew the facts is appalling. I think both the EU and the Remainers are playing a battle of attrition hoping to wear the people down. We don’t want a watered down Brexit or a transition period. We want a clean Brexit by the date set. Any backsliding is an affront to democracy. The Tories need a Brexit spokesperson to rally the troops, someone like Jacob Rees-Mogg. You need to prick the consciences of the Brexit supporting Labour MPs so that they vote for what is right for this country. Currently all people are seeing is the negative. People are getting sick of all this in-fighting and back stabbing.

    • Anonymous
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 11:37 am | Permalink

      Kuenssberg reports the Brexit team as lumbering idiots. One almost expects Laural and Hardy music to be piped over bulletins.

      A truly neutral reporter should not affect a sour face. What goes unsaid is often worse than what is said – by the manner of it.

  27. Jason Wells
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 8:59 am | Permalink

    Whatever we do now and however we handle this brexit business we should be careful to not box ourselves in so much that we cut off any possibility for future generations wishing to rejoin the EU common market. After all most of us here now commenting in this diary won’t even be around after another twenty years or so and just maybe, just maybe, another more enlightened generation might be looking for a different path to follow?

    • Oggy
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 11:12 am | Permalink

      It hasn’t been the common market for nearly 40 years – that’s the problem.
      Who would want to join the project again and have to accept the Euro, the Schengen treaty and no rebates ?
      Finally, the young by voting for Corbyn in their droves have shown themselves to be completely UN-enlightened.

    • Anonymous
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 11:39 am | Permalink

      Oh – they’ll be able to beg to go back in. And fools if they do.

      The bridges are already burnt. We go back in on unfavourable terms from now on.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

      Then they will be able to apply under what is at present Article 49 TEU.

      http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-European-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html

      “5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.”

  28. Peter
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 9:06 am | Permalink

    I think the idea of walking away from negotiations after six months holds greatest appeal.

    The posturing will never end, with the EU side playing a waiting game in the hope that the Tories will be toppled and a more conciliatory government will emerge.

  29. Bert Young
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 9:12 am | Permalink

    It’s situation normal – Labour cannot be trusted . The public have decided and that’s the end of it . Politicians of all colours have no right to over-rule the will of the people . Of course the Brexit decision did not and does not today suit everyone , but , we live in a democracy .

    Those who do not want to respect our laws and customs should go and live elsewhere ; the important thing is – it must be our laws ; the Repeal Act seeks to obtain this .

    The leaked details of the EU “punishment” condition is – if it is true , is unacceptable ; many EU countries have stated they do not want this to happen – the trade imbalance is heavily in their favour and some of their economies would go bust without it . So , not a penny more than we are obligated for – the “clock” ticks and the “whistle” has been blown .

  30. Stephen Berry
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 9:17 am | Permalink

    The only reasons to pay the EU a small sum of money are to ensure that free trade continues between the UK and the EU pretty much as now and as a sign that we wish to have good future relations. If there is no free trade deal and it seems the EU wish to make life for the UK as difficult as possible, then clearly we don’t pay anything. In any case, it is clearly stupid to pay anything remotely like the amount we pay at the moment.

    The EU trumpeted a free trade deal with Japan at the recent summit. Brexiteers might ask if this will include a commitment for free movement between Japan and the EU? How much are the Japanese paying to get this free trade deal? Also, will the European Court of Justice be trumping the rights of the Japanese courts as part of that deal?

    I have always believed that there would be a deal between the UK and the EU because it is so obviously in the economic interests of both sides to do one. After all, the EU only has to rubber stamp the existing trading arrangements. But going to WTO arrangements can hardly be a great hardship either. Trade with the EU is less that ten per cent of total UK GDP.

  31. a-tracy
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 9:28 am | Permalink

    So why aren’t the UK media asking the EU what this £100bn is that we are told our Government has already promised. Barnier keeps repeating we are ONLY being asked for what we’ve already committed to, well just what have we committed to in detail?

    We are told regularly we only pay in £8bn to £10bn pa, so why would they want ten years worth of membership fees, when the budget has only been agreed for another two years?

  32. a-tracy
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 9:31 am | Permalink

    More of this Labour party two-faced position needs reporting. Every time JC tweets about this and Sir Kier their Tory counterparts should tweet a picture of their response asking questions that Labour voters would want to know about.

  33. Prigger
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 9:47 am | Permalink

    The Remoaner MPs should be bribed.

  34. hans chr iversen
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    I am so fed up with John just talking about WTO tariffs if we get no trade deal with the EU.

    He either does not know or does not want to know about all the other non-tariff costs, such as technical barriers, industry norms and other non-tariffs that are all part of the EU which will end up costing UK business even more.|

    Is john ideologically blinkered or does he really not know better?

    What a quality of parliamentarian to represent us

    Reply It is likely the EU will want smooth arrangements to get all their imports into the Uk when under WTO rules, as they have with many other non EU countries. Work is being done on all this.

  35. margaret
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 10:01 am | Permalink

    What do the ECJ have to say on continuing payments. THE LAW IS THE LAW?

  36. Prigger
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 10:43 am | Permalink

    The EU is having trouble at the mill in southern Europe. The trouble is there aren’t any. The Remoaner sabotage of Brexit is , if they win, very likely to shove us off the economic and political cliff to which they allude so often. They will cease to be electable afterwards so things are not so dark.

  37. Nig l
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 11:06 am | Permalink

    Apparently David Davis slipped out a statement saying we we will have obligations to pay for years to come after leaving. Are you sure Mr Redwood you have your finger on the pulse?

    Reply That’s not how I read his statement and that certainly is not government policy

  38. Terry
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 11:42 am | Permalink

    Yes, this of great concern to me. The continual threats emanating, not only from the Remoaners but the EU itself, are not just irrritating they are very aggravating too. And politically disgraceful and totally unethical, to say the least.

    What ever happened to OUR respect of OUR democracy? To Leave the EU was the choice of the majority of British voters and Leave we must do, else we can throw away any sense of a democracy in this country. The EU may operate in this way but the UK cannot. It is NOT in our DNA.

    Now, just why should the UK have to pay the EU anything for leaving? What EU legislation commands it?
    I would guess all the UK had to pay for was the ‘Gold Plated’ Pensions awarded to British civil servants working within the EU and to the UK MEPs. But nothing else.

    Also there is the refund we are due for OUR money being invested in EU properties. So, we should expect of be able to off-set some of those pension costs with the EU buying our per centage of the EU property protfolios.

    I do not think that adds up to an outrageous and ridiculous net sum of €100 Billions and I, like many other Leavers, would love to see the EU accounts to justify this crazy claim.

    These constant childlike outbursts and the daft monetary claims tell me the EU is becoming very desperate over the loss of the British hand that feeds them but the decrepit Oligarchy has no one to blame but themselves for their dilemma. Great Britian does not “Do” subservience.

    The sooner we are out of their clutches the better off this country will become and
    I look forward to that day without any trepidation whatsoever.
    Britannia is going to rule for us again.

  39. Tabulazero
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 12:37 pm | Permalink

    “The government recognizes that the U.K. has obligations to the EU, and the EU obligations to the U.K., that will survive the U.K.’s withdrawal — and that these need to be resolved.” Da

    So much for leaving without paying (“filer à l’anglaise”). It looks like your government is not following your advice, Mr Redwood.

    • zorro
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

      How do you equate that to one sided money transfers if it says that the EU has obligations to the UK? Quantify please…if you dare! Not a clue….

      zorro

      • Tabulazero
        Posted July 14, 2017 at 9:17 pm | Permalink

        You should ask that question to David Davis.

        One may however note that this is the first time the U.K. Government has publicly acknowledged that the U.K. would have obligations to the EU beyond Brexit day. Prior to today, the official line was “we do not owe the EU a thing beyond 2019.”

        An interesting change of heart

        • Leslie Singleton
          Posted July 15, 2017 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

          Dear Tabulazero–That is baloney–It is obvious and all agree that there will be a few (small) loose ends which we will find it in our interest to fund for a while. It is the EU which has come up with a hyperbolic and ridiculously large number and I much doubt we shall be paying anything like that.

          • Tabulazero
            Posted July 18, 2017 at 8:52 am | Permalink

            Agreed. The €100bn is for laugh. It like bargaining in the Souk market.

            I wouldn’t be surprised if it ends up being half.

  40. Martin
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    Why not scrap the farm subsidies?

  41. AdamC
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    So it looks like the penny has finally dropped..something has hit the fan!

    JR sees it all as ‘them or us’, and unfortunately the way the rhetoric is going that’s where we are going to end up.. but in the end they will be the winners. As for ourselves we’re long past taking ‘back control now’ and the slogan of the extra 350 a week for the NHS is but a memory..so all i can see is disorder, disunity and disillusionment looming… reason being that in this country with both conservatives and labour it’s about greed… politicians and political power comes first.. country comes only at a far distant second.

    Reply What is in the press is not the same as what is happening! We have sent the letter, passed the Act of Parliament to leave and are now legislating to remove EU power.

  42. Mike Wilson
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

    Under WTO tariffs the UK government would gain around £12bn of tariff revenue at the expense of UK consumers, which it could give back as tax cuts.

    Now that, I must admit, made me laugh out loud. So, we pay more for our BMWs and the government gives us the extra back as a tax cut.

    I’m looking out the window, up in the air … planes are on their way to land at Heathrow … no pigs up there though.

  43. Javk snell
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

    If things go very badly at the talks, for instance, if there is a crash out, then the Eu might decide to not trade with us any more and not under any circumstances, not even under WTO rules, so in that case there will be no need to think any more about tariffs from that quarter and we will be completely free and have finally taken back control- life should be much easier then and we can get on with making new trade deals with our new global partners.

    • zorro
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

      Haha…. This is highly unlikely under Emperor Macron. Even Napoleon’s Continental system was regularly flouted by other European countries and effectively unworkable….

      But as you say, life exists beyond Europe and we do not need to rely on Europe for anything as it is produced elsewhere in the world.

      zorro

    • S Matthews
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

      I doubt the EU would transgress WTO rules. They would have to leave the WTO. Not going to happen

  44. Ian Pennell
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    Mr Redwood,

    With regards to the Brexit legislation I do not know how aware you are of up to 15 of your Conservative colleagues (possibly more as time passes) whom are in discussions with Labour over their plans to vote against the Great Repeal Bill.

    Whoever, these treacherous Conservative MPs are they need to be identified. There needs to be a big meeting of all Conservative MPs where it is spelt out that TWO THINGS WILL HAPPEN:

    1) The Vote for the Great Repeal Bill and other Brexit legislation will be Whipped.

    2) ANY Conservative MP voting against the Government on this all-important legislation will have the Conservative Whip withdrawn and the Writ moved to start a by-election in their Constituency where a Pro-Brexit Conservative Candidate will stand. the Pro-Brexit Conservative should win with a campaign that the Conservatives Fully Support the decision of British Voters to leave the EU at last year’s Referendum- both in fact and in the spirit of this Vote.

    That should be sufficient to deter Remain (or so-called Soft Brexit)-sympathetic Conservative MPs from voting against the Great Repeal Bill. If it isn’t, they should be replaced, otherwise the minority Conservative Government is going to have it’s ability to govern undermined at every opportunity.

    Perhaps, Sir, you could suggest to Theresa May that this is how she should retain authority over those MPs minded to vote against such all-important legislation.

    Reply Relax, I expect we will win the vote.

    • Chris
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

      I agree with you IP. I have expressed my grave concern about these MPs in an earlier post. The fact that no action is taken makes the government i.e. Theresa May, look even weaker and out of control. A seriously bad image to project to the country, besides anything else.

    • Oggy
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 5:50 pm | Permalink

      Reply to John,
      What about the Lords ? – you never responded when we asked if the Salisbury convention applied to the Lords from a minority Government.

      Reply It is a convention not a law. the Lords are likely to see the repeal Bill was voted for by 82 % of the electorate and to accept it must pass

    • Ian Pennell
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 9:06 pm | Permalink

      Reply to Reply,
      I hope that you are right and that Theresa May does succeed in getting this all-important Brexit legislation through Parliament. The DUP should remain onside to support the Government and I hope that any Conservative MP minded to Vote against decides not to for the good of this country and the Conservative Party over the longer term.

      The legislation is not due to be voted on until October, I do believe. The Conservative Party Conference comes before then, hopefully that will give Theresa May the chance to inculcate much-needed loyalty and unity within the Party before going into this Brexit Vote.

  45. Jonp
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

    Was reading about Tim Martin at the weekend, seems he is in agreement with totally removing ourselves from the EU sphere of things.. and in that way we won’t have to worry about tariffs etc.. was also thinking it’ll be ok for him though because by that time the whole country will have gravitated into frequenting his wetherspoon pubs and maybe not by first choice either..

    • zorro
      Posted July 14, 2017 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

      good choice of beer and gin at Wetherspoon pubs and reasonably priced too….

      zorro

  46. ChasE
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

    we’ll have a much better idea after the barnier davis press conference next week. my guess is that UK and EU citizens rights will take centre stage- nothing will move until that is agreed. Then the mechanics of sorting out the bill for leaving will be discussed- the Irish border is also something that cannot wait- tHe EU has been very clear about all of this.

    If afterwards we want to trade by WTO standard tariffs will obtain.. so I don’t see what’s the problem? there will be more delays in airports seaports etc and goods might have to wait longer in customs warehouses before clearance- but that’s how it used to be prior to 1973

    • rose
      Posted July 15, 2017 at 1:09 am | Permalink

      How can they sort out the Northern Irish border before they have settled the question of trading arrangements?

  47. Chris
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    A deliberate attempt by Theresa May to undermine the Brexit department, and even Brexit itself? This can only result in a fudge and not Brexit.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/14/exclusive-theresa-may-considers-asking-labour-join-cross-party/
    Theresa May is considering setting up a cross-party Brexit commission and ask senior Labour MPs to join it as part of her attempts to reach a consensus on the terms of Britain’s exit from the European Union.

    Downing Street sources said the Prime Minister was looking at asking senior Labour MPs like Hilary Benn or Yvette Cooper to sit on the commission.

    The new commission would “shadow the work of the Brexit department”, Number 10 sources said.

    The plans emerged after Mrs May asked Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn for his support in delivering Brexit and pushing through legislation as she faced up to the “reality I now face as Prime Minister”.

  48. Chewy
    Posted July 14, 2017 at 11:26 pm | Permalink

    Initially I was alarmed reading about the 15 rebels ready to sabotage the Brexit bill, perhaps by supporting amendments to keep us in the EEA. On reflection I wonder if they’re just pushing to try and get concessions.
    Unless Remoaning’s completely addled their senses; to do such a thing in the face of the referendum result and expect party colleagues such as JW to sit idly by, is unthinkable. Havoc would ensue quite possibly leading to a GE.
    These people stood on a manifesto of leaving the single market and customs union. Unfortunately there was no overall majority but the Conservatives are the biggest party, so on what basis do these people think it’s OK to go feral, other than being completely out of touch.
    Lords won’t be much fun though.

    Reply Name them – I cant.

  49. Oggy
    Posted July 15, 2017 at 5:52 am | Permalink

    I see Blair is saying this morning he has heard from senior EU sources that the EU would be flexible on Freedom of movement if the UK doesn’t leave the EU. That’s very generous of them !
    I wonder if they would be flexible on the ECJ too ? (sarcasm). It’s too late Blair we want to be free of the EU millstone around our necks.
    Also Clegg has said he wants a second referendum where everyone under 30 should have their vote counted twice ! – didn’t he USED to be a ‘Lib DEMOCRAT’ ? Interesting that he said ‘we should take back control of our destiny’ – he’s right there.

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/828924/Brexit-Nick-Clegg-Lib-Dem-second-referendum-Theresa-May-Jeremy-Corbyn-EU

    I watched the last half of the Lords meeting with the heads of the ‘British Overseas Territories and Brexit’ last night, what a refreshing change, they said Brexit gave them a chance to forge a closer relationship with the UK and the future was ‘potentially exciting’. What a shame the rigid Scots and Welsh Governments don’t share that positive view.

    Reply Yes the young people are more important argument is bizarre. The whole principle of democracy is everyone has one vote, and we are all equal. Does he not realise a 31 year old has to live with the decision to leave or stay for maybe 70 years!

    • Dennis Zoff
      Posted July 15, 2017 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

      …who are these duplicitous political has beens…Blare, Clegg, et al.

      They were anti Britain while in mainstream politics and now can only shout from the distant fringes to intelligent people that have seen through their puerile attempts to persuade them to remain in the EU!

      These despicable individuals should go elsewhere with their unscrupulous mendacious nonsense…..Brussels perhaps?

  50. Richard W
    Posted July 15, 2017 at 6:27 am | Permalink

    Reading the comments on this blog I cannot escape the impression that the language around Brexit is getting ever more strident, petulant and even violent. It doesn’t bode well at all.

  51. Chris S
    Posted July 15, 2017 at 7:50 am | Permalink

    Blair is either delusional or he is not being straight with the British People.
    As he has form over the latter, I believe he is being untruthful.

    There is no evidence whatsoever that Macron, Merkel and Juncker let alone the leaders of the former Eastern Bloc countries, will move one inch on FOM. In fact, the opposite is true.

    If they, were the slightest bit interested, they would have adjusted the principle to accommodate Cameron. It was Merkel’s failure to give him anything at all that was ultimately responsible for Brexit.

    At least Blair wasn’t given an easy ride by Nick Robinson on the Today Programme this morning and it was good to see Frank Field debunking his arguments immmediately afterwards.

    I don’t believe that voters will take this intervention seriously. It is far more likely to strengthen our resolve to leave.

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, He graduated from Magdalen College Oxford, has a DPhil and is a fellow of All Souls College. A businessman by background, he has been a director of NM Rothschild merchant bank and chairman of a quoted industrial PLC.

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