The Minister for Immigration confirmed freedom of movement ends in March 2019 when we leave. The Home Secretary is consulting on how much EU migration we want once we are out. Your thoughts would be interesting on this topic.
I am keen to give more job opportunity to people already settled here, and to encourage productivity boosting investment to assist with higher wages. We need  to take capital costs into account for each migrant as we need to provide decent housing, healthcare, educational and transport provision for new arrivals. The government has always made clear it will be welcoming to talent and let business fill skill shortages that the domestic economy cannot manage.
July 28, 2017
“welcoming to talent”
Perhaps the government can enlighten us as to what skills hundreds of thousands of uneducated, unskilled migrants that can’t speak a word of English provide us?
July 28, 2017
Goat herding?
July 28, 2017
We read today that your party has lost us Brexit and it will be in name only. A delighted Hammond reported that it will takes years for there to be border controls and the U.K. will not be able to make trade deals with the rest of the world. Reported as a Norway option without any say with the EU. So May and Hammond are letting the EU punish our country while EU billions of our taxes and allowing anyone to walk in or out of the country. Our public services are in a mess and we continue to not to be safe or secure.
If this is true it has to be asked: What sort of imbeciles are negotiating for the U.K. JR? So Freedom of movement will continue with a sort of voluntary registration! Let us have the general election now it cannot be any worse.
July 29, 2017
Agreed and with a new leader. As nice a person Mrs. May appears she is way out of her depth. We cannot continue this nonsense of Remainers in charge of Brexit without the Conservative Party members endorsing that. Then we have the option of the final solution with Corbyn or a Conservative leadership that really means Brexit means Brexit in March 2019.
July 29, 2017
…. in March 2019 or not.
July 28, 2017
JR headline: “Freedom of movement to end says Minister”
DT headline 28-07-2017: “Philip Hammond: ‘Literally nobody’ wants post-Brexit migration ‘cliff-edge'”.
Face it, with people like Hammond, Soubry, Rudd, Clarke, (and Corbyn playing a deeper power game), we ain’t gonna see a real Leave. They will bust this country rather than let go of nanny EU’s apron strings. They suffer from Stockholm syndrome. And we will suffer a dog’s breakfast of a fake Leave that is the worst of both worlds.
I will believe the Tories mean business when Hammond and Rudd are sacked, not before.
July 29, 2017
Ideed May has a dire team of lefty, green crap, dopey, remainers. Listen to Ms Perry on any questions. Monbiot’s comment about her on wiki is interesting.
No sense at all on the programme other that from the journalist lHartley Brewer.
July 29, 2017
“Ms Perry” … “Monbiot’s ” I must have missed something. I’ve not heard of them. I found Ms Perry is an MP. She should not feel offended. I’m sure almost certain she has never heard of me either. But I do not claim to be Minister of State for Climate Change. Though born not so long before her, I have not witnessed Climate Change. My daffodils, bluebells, roses etc grow and flower at more or less the same time as thy always did and as my old mother, a keen gardener, were she alive would have stated no change either…that covers the best part of a hundred years.
So Ms Perry has got a real job on her hands trying to change our Climate. There’s no help to be had if you read about our Climate in Bronte novels or, the novel Lorna Doone by R. D. Blackmore. I can’t work out whether he was born in Oxfordshire or Berkshire. 49.2 miles by road from JR’s Wokingham. Perhaps Climate Change only happens if you are green or if you, really-really believe and close your eyes tight-shut at bedtime on Christmas Eve.
July 31, 2017
or the other argument could be that the Brexiteers are the one’s bankrupting the country with a hard Brexit
August 1, 2017
Deutsche Bank invests in new very large UK HQ
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-01/deutsche-bank-leases-new-u-k-headquarters-from-land-securities
July 28, 2017
They are cheap labour to cut cabbages on Lincolnshire farms!
July 28, 2017
The same as the hundreds of thousands of English people settled in Spain who can’t speak a word of Spanish. Pool cleaners? Fish and chip shop owners? The English pub?
July 28, 2017
Mostly retired pensioners paying their way and adding to the local economy. With the host country efficiently recharging our NHS (uk taxpayers who do not benefit from the multplier effect) the health costs.
July 29, 2017
Margaret Howard
Wrong, most are pensioners who fund themselves. You cannot claim any benefits if you are young unless you pay into the system first and have a job. The pensioners we knew all had their own villas with pools and employed a lot of Spanish people to garden and look after the pool. Also to decorate the outside of their villas and to serve them in the restaurants and bars. They give a lot to Spain. They don’t take. My husband and myself were living there and my husband was working and had his pension. We didn’t claim anything. We didn’t need to. If we needed an interpreter we paid for it ourselves.
July 28, 2017
Dear Andy–You obviously missed Mark Easton yesterday (BBC I believe, no surprise) who nearly burst at the seams explaining how we couldn’t live without foreign help. Apparently for instance (I don’t believe it) “a quarter of our Architects are immigrants”. What I cannot get straight is what he believes what he was saying would achieve–To me if he is anywhere near right (He had huge percentages for just about all possible employment, which I doubt as I say) it should be a wake up call to get the numbers down–not up as I had to conclude he wanted from what he had to say and the otherwise-we-are-doomed manner in which he said it.
July 29, 2017
Cutting excessive public sector pay might help bring down demand for such imported services – in addition to reducing the deficit.
July 28, 2017
They provide HMG with investment opportunities
July 28, 2017
Doing menial jobs the British people do not want to do ?
July 29, 2017
I heard this same argument in the 1950s and 60s, saying that West Indians were doing the jobs the native population refused to do. However, when I went out to Australia in 1969 I saw British people doing precisely those same jobs.
July 28, 2017
The HR directors of companies like RollsRoyce, AstraZeneca,HSBC and Dyson should be the ones whom we ask. They would know the kind of immigrants they need and those should be ones who get work permits.
There should also be a parallel investment here in UK to train our own people to fill those same shortages in future and an offer of free tuition for just those courses. Linking the two ideas would further the Conservative agenda and take some wind out of Labour sails.
July 28, 2017
Indeed I understand loads of people even with top GSCEs and A levels still strugle to get a place to study medicine, dentistry and vetinary and similar. Yet loads of other students are funded to go to university to study absurd and largely useless subjects often at second rate universities but even at our best ones.
Do we have our priorties totally wrong. Would we rather import doctors from India, Nigeria and East Europe. Doctors who have far worse complaint records on average (though many of course very good).
Should the tax pay fund hobby subjects at univerity at all when medical places are so restricted?
July 29, 2017
Arts students subsidise medical students. Their lecture time and facilities are far less than medicine.
July 30, 2017
The dreaming spires mentality still abounds, particularly in the minds of socialists in all spheres of politics. Give me an abundance of UK trained medics rather than graduates in subjects that the Open University can satisfy in many instances on a part time basis. When I left school 8% went to University, many qualifed on the job (me included) at night school and day release. My father obtained his degree in engineering at 30 (pre war of course) after starting on the shop floor at 14.
Socialism ain’t what it used to be, expensive crap degrees seem to be today’s mantra.
July 28, 2017
I agree with much of the analysis you present, John.
Your point on the capital cost is well made but could be explained in terms of time. The usual riposte to the capital cost argument is that increases in demand following the increase in population mean that there will be an increase in investment to match. But if it takes 10 years to build the extra roads, houses, hospitals, factories, etc. then for 10 years the existing residents are worse off in the sense there are now fewer capital goods to share between a larger population. Economists never seem to consider this.
If you have migration every year, you may be worse off every year because each year you set the 10 year clock back to the start.
I think the entire cultural argument needs to be reset with the assertion that this is our home and as a result it is not immoral to say that we have the right to determine who can settle here and on what terms. The question “at what point does England* lose its cultural identity?” needs to be asked. The open door crowd need to be forced to answer this. If they give an upper limit on migration in response that’s a win and if they say there’s no upper limit they will have lost the voters.
* yes, I mean England – Scotland, Wales and NI don’t see a lot of immigration.
July 28, 2017
I think we are passed that point already…
From the unbiased BBC “Births to foreign-born mothers hit 28% in England and Wales” – http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40655563
July 28, 2017
I would say that the point when we lose our identity is when a stigma arises from being proud to be English.
So, about 15 years ago
July 30, 2017
And when it isn’t acceptable to have an English judge.
July 28, 2017
Dear Anthony–The immigrants are not going to know the difference between Magna Carta and the Bill of Rights, never mind Shakespeare, and Yes I do very much believe it matters
July 28, 2017
off course, but who’s paying?
If you provide all this without charge, then demand will always outstrip supply.
July 28, 2017
It should be for the employer to pay towards the extra costs where immigration is at their behest – this should include Mode 4 migrants who nominally stay for 12 months at a time. If they are using their UK operations to provide work experience, then they could be exempted from some charges where they can show that the new employee is replacing another who has (re-)emigrated.
The real problems come with those who are outside the formal corporate sponsor system. We also need to think carefully about how we treat migrants who are parts of families. Do we want to discourage someone British bringing in their Canadian spouse? Do we want immigration limited to single people, rather than families? I think neither is healthy, although we clearly need to limit the general level of immigration, because it is not just a matter of having resources for them, but rather, limiting population growth and ensuring a good degree of cultural compatibility.
July 28, 2017
Indeed and we do not even provide decent healthcare for those who are already here. The NHS and indeed the ambulance service are appalling at times, often killing many people through delays, insufficient capacity, unsuitable staff. lack of equipment or just general incompetence.
July 28, 2017
“We need to take capital costs into account for each migrant as we need to provide decent housing, healthcare, educational and transport provision for new arrivals.”
How about doing this for existing tax payers first? No more immigration or work related benefits for them until you sort out the provision of timely and quality health, education and other public services for the British people.
July 28, 2017
Mass immigration which has been welcomed and encouraged by government keeps wages down. Mass immigration must be stopped and anyone who says they want wages to be increased should agree and act.
If there is a ready supply of cheap labour employers will hire it.
If labour shortages arise after strict immigration rules are imposed they can be relieved by businesses if they invest in new more efficient machinery and systems. This has been criminally lacking in the UK for years. Wages will rise for those who are emplyed because they will be better skiled and the product unit cost will have fallen enabling the employer to pay.
It is urgent socially too. Muliti-culturalism has failed and is steadily destroying our society.
July 28, 2017
It was devised to destroy our society(just as it was by Lenin to destroy the cohesion of the tsarist state;until stopped by Stalin)and it’s ingrained in our laws which the Tories have done nothing to reverse,despite Cameron declaring it dead.
Will we have to wait for our own Stalin to get anything done?
July 28, 2017
If true then I welcome it, as long as we operate a sensible immigration policy where only people can come who’s skills we require, and who have a job to go to.
Unfortunately the Home Secretary yesterday when interviewed did not seem to agree with the above.
I wish all Ministers would please either get on message, when either a policy has been agreed or is being thought through, or just keep their mouths shut.
Failure to do so leads to the look of absolute chaos, mismanagement or disagreement.
July 28, 2017
Talking of absolute chaos,our Foreign Secretary in Australia,in full Poundland Palmerston mode,this week declared:
“One of the first things we will do with the two new colossal aircraft carriers that we have just built is send them on a freedom navigation operation to this area”(referring to the disputed waterways in the South China Sea).
Asked about this statement later he replied:-
“We haven’t yet quite decided to do that.OK?”
I presume the government doesn’t think China is a crucial post-Brexit market for us then.
July 30, 2017
What a laugh, this Boris: HMS Queen Elisabeth has just recently gone to sea and is still undergoing trials, HMS Prince of Wales is not scheduled to be ready before 2020. So what is our FS going to send patrolling: two paddle boats?
Or could he be just playing to the gallery?
July 28, 2017
She only spoke about the economy and not the misery of congestion, overcrowding, waiting lists and queues. Not to mention the change in culture or feeling you are in a foreign City when you go to our capital or other major Cities. Importing some very strange cultures and practices that are simply alien to the indigenous population and then giving them free houses, education and houses! You couldn’t make it up.
July 28, 2017
Alan, Unfortunately not true as confirmed by Philip Hammond. He says we will have to suck up a two to three year transition period on top of the year wasted up to Art 50 triggering, and the two year transition of the Art 50 process. Six (6) years to get out!! If we ever actually leave, in the end. Shameful, absolutely shameful. It is just not acceptable. The Tories are determined to disappear as a party. And they will succeed at that, if not at leaving the EU.
July 28, 2017
Rubbish. So the end of Freedom of Movement means signing a Register?
So long as you’re Latvian, Lithuanian, Romanian or Bulgarian and you can put pen to paper with a hand or foot, you’re still in.
July 28, 2017
The point is, this 2 years is supposed to be the “transition period”, and this 2 years should have started 24 June 2016. Feet are being dragged and you will pay for this at the ballot box.
July 28, 2017
it’s called “soft Brexit” (aka “Not Brexit”)
July 28, 2017
Many of us have commented that we the Leavers saw immigration as a prime cause of our theoretical victory and there does not seem to be much disagreement from Remainers about this. Uncontrolled immigration has a massive social cost and the notion that we need it to satisfy our “booming” economy in e.g. coffee shops is creating false demands to fuel the immigration e.g. housing, schools. We should have given residency status to all those legally here immediately after the Referendum and started the special and needed skill approach. One of the reasons we are short of e.g. medics is they are emigrating. I know three young doctors and two engineers, children of friends, who have gone to Aus and NZ, where of course it is not open house.
This survey is another example of weak government.
July 28, 2017
A.Sedgwick
They are doing a survey because they do not have a clue who is here, how many, where they are from, or what they are doing here if anything.
Recent reports suggests thousands of ex students here have expired documents, but again no one has a clue about them.
I wonder are they paying back any part of their student loans ?
Survey will be a waste of time and money, who is going to volunteer to fill it in other than employers under the threat of fines.
July 28, 2017
I’m pretty sure (as a university lecturer until about a year ago) that:
(1) Foreign students from the EU, although eligible for student loans, don’t have documents to expire.
(2) Foreign students from elsewhere, in the UK on Tier 4 visas, aren’t eligible for student loans.
But I do share your scepticism, both about the survey and about former students on expired visas.
July 28, 2017
Simon
Thanks for that, so if I read you correctly, EU students who may or may not have left the UK, may have loans that they are not paying.
Other foreign students who do not have loans, may have outstayed their welcome, not returned home, so may still be here.
In either case its seems the Government does not have a clue about numbers.
July 28, 2017
I agree with all of that.
July 28, 2017
Freedom of movement is still on the Chancellor agenda and confusing the bedazzled out of everyone with the open ended transition.
July 28, 2017
Indeed it is about the UK government being in control of immigration and being selective. No one sensible is against all immigration. But most of it has been low paid immigration which has just lowered GDP per capital and made the country far less productive and discouraged capital investment.
Did anyone listen to our tedious, robotic, misguided, closet remainer the Chancellor, just now on the Today Programme? A leftly tax borrow and piss down the drain chancellor, needless to say being attacked by the interviewer from the further left, as is usual on the BBC. I think he even claimed he would be paying back the debt next year having got the deficit under control! Much talk about Corbyne’s expensive promises but Hammond is pissing money away on HS2, Hinkley C, a hugely bloated and inept government and lots of greencrap lunacies.
Well we shall see if this IHT ratter, would be self employed mugger, 15% stamp duty enthusiast, pension, landlord and tenant mugging chancellor remains in place for long enough. Why no questions about these huge failing from the BBC?
July 28, 2017
People at or around the minimum wage pay less in taxes then they get back in immidiate benefits, children’s education, health care, child benefit, child care, dental care, housing benefit and the likes. They also need housing and put pressure on other services like social services, police and similar.
So how on earth are these people likely to be a net benefit to the country? Not likely in the short term anyway.
July 28, 2017
Hey Life Logic
You’re a clever person.
Listening to R4 and reading the papers is a habit.
Try breaking the habit and explore alternative sources.
Reason, there is a huge amount of information that is not getting to
R4 people.
July 28, 2017
@ Lifelogic
I think he even claimed he would be paying back the debt next year having got the deficit under control!
You heard it right. It might be a good idea if he actually mentioned how deep we are as a country in debt and the real cost of our interest payments, that just might bring a little focus to the proceedings for those who want to borrow even more.
July 28, 2017
And what is wrong exactly with continuing to apply a policy that lets in all sorts of unsuitable people in large number to the detriment of the host population?
July 28, 2017
T May was, in the referendum, happy to lie to voters (to try to trick them into a remain vote) that we “had control of our borders within the EU through Schengen”. She must have know it was a blatant lie. Also she was happy to serve a Home Sectratary with immigration (both EU and other) totally out of control. This while pretending to be cutting it to the tens of thousands.
Why on earth should we trust (ex?) remainers Theresa May, Philip Hammond or indeed Amber Rudd now? I certainly do not, as Fararge say the Brexit betrayal is already well underway.
July 28, 2017
Glad to hear it, though I am not holding my breath in anticipation. How about providing decent housing, education, healthcare and transport for the indigenous population. If the immigrants have legitimate jobs to go to, and pay their taxes , then they are entitled to the benefits. In the case of wives and children , only if they too are in the UK. We are not to become social welfare for the vagrants of Europe or anywhere else.
It is time we stopped pussy footing about with these EU negotiators by telling them what they will get financially pre Brexit and what they might get post Brexit for mutually beneficial programmes. Then ask them if they want tariff free trade or not. Make the offer plain in the media of the 27 states. We should make public the Machiavellian games the EU appear to be intent on. Particularly in respect of the future for citizens in each others domain.
July 28, 2017
@ agricola
We are not to become social welfare for the vagrants of Europe or anywhere else.
Have you had a really good look around lately because I think we are already there
July 29, 2017
Yes we most certainly are there if not beyond there. However the success of those that have got in only encourages more to come and there is nothing, not even political will to prevent it. Look at the effect of the rescue of economic migrants in the Med. Because they are not returned to the shores they left, more are encouraged to come. Political insanity.
July 30, 2017
Italy will issue passports to their excessive migrants, in order to send them to Northern Europe, where the UN thinks they will provide valuable labour to replace dwindling native population. Many will walk into the UK over Hammond’s 6 extra years. This is what big business wants. He find work with big business too, but not at the bottom end of the pay scale.
July 29, 2017
If the immigrants have legitimate jobs to go to, and pay their taxes , then they are entitled to the benefits.
I fundamentally disagree with this statement. Anyone choosing to move country must do so knowing that it will be difficult. If they needs benefits to make it work for them then they should not come. By all means come, struggle, make a life but do not expect to get handouts to help you.
We don’t need to import relative poverty, we have plenty here already.
From the cut off point, no-one should come in long term without spousal rights, study or a long term job to come to.
July 28, 2017
Long enough has passed since the 2015 election for the govt to adopt UKIP’s proposal of an Australian style points system without too much loss of face due to ‘not invented here’. It seems a good plan, subject to the inevitable compromises which will have to be made with the EU to secure a deal, giving priority to EU citizens.
July 28, 2017
There’s nothing inevitable about giving into the EU over everything.
July 28, 2017
Dear Richard–Once again I must have been asleep in America–No favourable treatment registered with me giving priority to Canada (nor vice versa) and America and Canada speak the same language–The rEU is still a Tower Of Babel and likely to remain so and of course Juncker is trying to fade English out (Good Luck with that). In any event I would prefer to give priority (“to secure a deal”) with the rest of the World–If only Gove would keep quiet.
July 28, 2017
I want to see government bring down immigration from outside the EU, not just from inside the EU, and not relax visas with countries outside the EU as part of any future trade deal. That would go against the whole spirit of the referendum, plus we just need to reduce immigration anyway (one of main reasons i nearly voted to Leave the EU).
July 28, 2017
Indeed. While EU migrants make the headlines I am just as concerned about migration from outside the EU.
An Australian points based system makes sense.
I definitely do not want to pander to those businesses who want a huge pool of available labour as a mechanism to keep wages down. Pay a decent wage to our own native workers and keep them from drawing benefits.
We need to walk away from negotiations now. The other side are not acting in good faith and are merely drawing out the process. No transition. No equivocation.
July 28, 2017
@ Peter
We need to walk away from negotiations now.
If not sooner, complete and utter wind up as our host as explained time and time again. But (always a but) who the hell is listening?
July 28, 2017
Dear Peter–We should have walked a year ago–There would of course have been grief but we would be climbing back up the cliff now
July 28, 2017
The danger is that in March 2019 de jure we will leave the EU but de facto we will remain in it. The EU would be fine with us continuing to pay and observing the requirements of the single market. The incentive for them is to drag out the negotiations. We do not have the political strength to walk away at any stage if the prospect of a deal might be possible. And so on and on it would go.
July 28, 2017
Just so. The Minister for Immigration has confirmed that de jure EU freedom of movement of persons will end in March 2019 when we leave the EU, and the Home Secretary is consulting on how much EU migration we will want once we are de jure out of the EU, while at the same time the Chancellor of the Exchequer is conniving to ensure that de facto EU freedom of movement of persons will continue forever even after we have left the EU; and even though the Prime Minister knows this very well she is doing nothing to bring him under control.
July 28, 2017
That is precisely what is going to happen. Because the fairy stories about Brexit – have cake and eat it! EU caving in on all our demands! free trade deals easily struck with US, India etc – are being shown to be nonsense in the real world. Michael, you need to hold the false prophets such as Mr Redwood, also Mr Johnson and Mr Gove, accountable.
July 28, 2017
Dear Michael–The continuing talk about the Single Market and the benefits we would lose blah blah is very wearing and as I have said here and elsewhere why cannot the Treasury be instructed to come up with a transparent estimate of how much the Standard Rate could be reduced if we stopped paying in our vast Contributions? Everything has its price and the Single Market’s is way too high. For the population to get hold of and run with this it is absolutely essential to give them a specific example of the benefits of NOT being in the Single Market. Surprised JR not already done this.
July 28, 2017
How can we get a year or more down the road, and find the Government hasn’t begun to put in place some border controls measures. It is all sort of ‘manyana’ . We should be putting in place the infrastructure before we leave, not think about it after we leave.
Everything I hear about the issue is about weakening any measures to control our borders. The cut off date was supposed to be the date we voted Brexit, but that slipped to A50 date, which became the date we leave, which is now getting lost in some perpetual transition non date. It was only migrants who were here for five years who got the free British citizenship. Now its proposed that migrants who are short the five years can stay and total up the requirement to get their free British citizenship . Everything the British establishment does is to keep our borders open for as long as possible and shove as many millions of people into the country that they can.
Wasn’t Brexit enough of a revolution to make them think that they needed to do something? Do they want the real thing?
July 28, 2017
@ Iain Moore
Wasn’t Brexit enough of a revolution to make them think that they needed to do something? Do they want the real thing?
What we have at the moment is everyone talking the talk about honouring the vote but all secretly hoping and praying that it all goes belly up. They still talk about the massive market we are walking away from but in the grand scheme of things overall we do not sell that much to. Too many still with their heads where the sun never shines.
It will end in a revolution that is a racing certainty not maybe a blood on the street jobby but a revolution never the less, which will turn this country completely on its head.
July 28, 2017
They are trying to con us and we know it.
July 28, 2017
John,
Yesterday, the Adam Smith Institute illustrated with a graph that:
the UK debt-to-GDP ratio over the next fifty years can be kept under control simply by maintaining our current levels of net migration, but would rise to a dangerously high level if we cut it too much.
Is this the case? Is this the reason for the crazy levels of immigration and why none of the main parties want to reduce it? That’s aside from the need to fund the pyramid scheme that is the welfare state, obviously
Kind Regards
https://www.adamsmith.org/blog/conservatives-deserve-facts-about-immigration-not-guesswork
July 28, 2017
The main parties, that is in particular the three who have actually been in government either alone or in coalition in recent decades, know that in order to court popularity and win elections they have all significantly over-promised, and they cannot hope to meet the high expectations they have created without running a kind of demographic Ponzi scheme. Of course this cannot go on forever, but the Adam Smith Institute prefers to ignore that reality by ending its graph in 2060.
July 28, 2017
Yes, this is the reason for our crazy levels of immigration. It’s a Ponzi scheme. The longer we keep it it the worse will be the crash.
July 28, 2017
It’s pretty simple numbers.
As the retired population of the UK grows, the working age population needs to grow at a similar rate in order to provide a tax base to fund pensions, care costs etc. on a fairly constant basis.
If the growth in the working age population falls below the growth in the rate of the retired population, you either have to tax working age people more (which many working age people will object to), borrow more (which many people think is a bad idea), or tell retired people to pay out more of their own costs from their own assets (and that went down well in June, didn’t it).
The UK birth rate is, according to recent figures I have seen published, about 10% below the rate necessary for the growth in the working age population to keep pace with the growth in the retired population. If the domestic birth rate is falling short by 10%, the only other source of working age people to sustain the necessary growth rate in the working age population is net immigration to bridge the gap.
Given that most people typically don’t want to pay more tax, don’t want the country to go in to more debt, and want to be able to pass their house on to their kids tax free, continued net immigration at sufficient numbers is the only option left.
Politicians need to be more honest and open about the choices and their implications rather spouting the “have our cake and eat it” rubbish we hear far too often.
July 30, 2017
Have you not forgotten an alternative traditionally used by the Inuit populations beyond the Polar Circle?
July 28, 2017
Please JR stop being deliberately daft to fool us. Rudd also made a speech about nothing. She announced what was already in existence and all key elements that already exist pretending that it is somehow new or that she is actually doing something! Productivity JR! She has been in office for over a year, we still do not have secure borders. Three recent atrocities where people died and were miamed through her failure to keep us safe and secure, why is she still in office? Rudd’s failure to act puts us in harms way.
If this was not bad enoughRead Richard Littlejohns article today and look at the left wing brigade in charge of our armed forces. Has Fallon lost leave of his senses, does he intervene to stop admirals criticising Trump? Admirals have no business being political, he should be sacked. Admiralty considering uniforms that might be burka friendly to recruit Muslims.
If this is May’s answer to address her own belief of not being nasty she might want to consider the majority think yours is the party of the stupid.
July 28, 2017
Its about time we stopped changing our ways to theirs – if they come here then its for them to change to our ways or leave.
July 28, 2017
I’d like to see the government commit to having a work permit system in place and ready to take effect by March 2019. I can’t see why this needs to take an inordinate amount of time even with consultation with industry. Hearing Philip Hammond this morning the impression was that we can’t do much until 2019 before a transition begins, but we have 20 months until March 2019!
July 28, 2017
Let me remind everyone that this is about real people.
Last night,at my English class, Ewelina, a Polish Mum, was nearly in tears. She thought that she would be thrown out after Brexit. She has put down deep roots here because she loves it. Her two children – Mateusz and Michal – go to school here happily and they are enjoying the experience. Her husband has a good job in a local factory. The place is safe and fair.
The Polish legal crisis upset her too.
I reassured her as best I could. But I do not think she is alone in her worries.
Meanwhile the immigrants from Africa, many of whom seem to have little or no intention of any form of work (I have taught some of them), flood in, carried on EU navalvessels.
July 28, 2017
Mike,
You have hit the nail on the head. Poles, Latvians, Lithuanians, and even the majority of Romanians intend to integrate and settle and work (although I’d rather they didn’t get child benefit to send back to their home countries). They learn our language and even anglicise their names.
The concern is – as I see it – getting proper border controls and immigration policy in place before March 2019, and praying that Italy (in particular, but not exclusively) does not reach desperation tipping point and issue passports en masse to the millions of people being ferried to Europe by the NGOs.
July 28, 2017
I’m sure that if Ewelina lived in Maidenhead and she went along to Theresa May’s constituency surgery then the latter would be genuinely sympathetic and would seek to be reassuring. But she has got herself trapped in the position where if she tried to explain UK government policy it would be neither sympathetic nor reassuring, it would have to be along the lines of “Well, if UK citizens are treated badly in other EU countries then we will take it out on you and your family”.
July 28, 2017
Who has told her she will be thrown out?
July 29, 2017
Not “will”, but “may”, be thrown out of the UK, in retaliation for bad behaviour by politicians in other EU countries including in her home country. Not as a consequence of any bad behaviour on her part – she may well be completely blameless – but Theresa May has threatened that if politicians in other EU countries treat resident UK citizens badly then there may be reprisals against EU citizens resident here. With that one foolish decision, taken on bad advice, she sacrificed the moral highground and actually increased the chances that our citizens abroad will not be treated decently.
July 28, 2017
Dear Mike–What’s that got to do with letting hordes more in?
July 29, 2017
Nothing, as I pointed out in a comment which has not been published.
July 28, 2017
The only people causing concern in this area are the EU. They have made it clear for instance that they don’t want to offer free movement to UK expats in the EU unless they can extort more ransom money.
No body here in the UK needs reminding, its those on the mainland.
July 28, 2017
@ John: Do you seriously expect the a EU to accept the end of freedom of movement for EU expats in the U.K. after Brexit but to grant freedom of movement to the U.K. expats in the EU ?
That would not be fair, wouldn’t it ?
Brexit means Brexit and it will apply to both EU & UK nationals.
July 29, 2017
For those before the cut off date we are not saying they can’t travel or move within the UK single market. We are talking about those already resident for 5 years before the Brexit cut off date here.
July 30, 2017
The U.K. Single Market being constituted of only one country, I doubt it compare favorably number-wise to the EU single-market which is made up of 27.
As such, granting access to one is not equivalent to the other.
At this stage of the negotiation, it looks like British expats established 5 yr before Brexit will have indefinite right to remain which is basically what the U.K. is offering. It will however only apply to the country they currently reside in which is fair since it is also what the U.K. has put on the table.
Fair and Square.
I think many people here do not realise how politically difficult it would be to sell to continental public opinion some of the thing they or Mr Redwood are proposing.
Do you really expect that there would be no backlash against the Brits being granted the right to freely roam the EU as is currently the case and on the other hand see EU expats rights in the U.K. heavily curtailed ?
Good luck selling that to the voters in Germany, Sweden or the Netherland
July 29, 2017
No, it started with Theresa May on bad advice from Sir Ivan Rogers:
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/08/revealed-bureaucrat-advised-theresa-may-use-eu-nationals-bargaining-chips/
“Revealed: the bureaucrat who advised Theresa May to use EU nationals as bargaining chips”
“Sir Ivan Rogers, Britain’s ambassador to the EU, advised all candidates for the Tory leadership to use Britain’s three million EU nationals as bargaining chips in Brexit talks because he thought it would be the only bargaining chip Britain had. Boris Johnson, Andrea Leadsom, Michael Gove and Sajid Javid all regarded the idea as disgusting, and said so. Even if destabilising Polish nurses and German mechanics in Britain would give the Foreign Office a nice chip to play, why would a humane government wish to do so?”
Worst of all, Sir Ivan’s cold-hearted gesture is also pointless. It’s illegal, under international law, to expel people en masse. This sort of mass deportation is the behaviour of Idi Amin-style dictators but not democracies. For the PM to say that she’s even considering it is just awful.”
July 28, 2017
“Meanwhile the immigrants from Africa, many of whom seem to have little or no intention of any form of work (I have taught some of them), flood in…”
Merkel has accumulated several million of those already, and is sticking to her guns re letting them all come. Ultimately, all she has to do is issue them with EU passports, and they will deport themselves to the most generous welfare states in the EU. Same for every EU state that is overwhelmed by these “refugees”.
We need to be out, before they can do that.
July 28, 2017
Dear John–I don’t believe for a moment that we cannot manage on our own, of course after changes necessary to get to the new equilibrium. Higher wages for the poorer paid for a start of course (Well, Blow me down, big business doesn’t like that, What a surprise). There will be exceptions of course but they at a minimum should be vetted for the privilege of a Visa and should very much not be granted full UK Rights, certainly not immediately. This was England. I continue to agree absolutely with Nigel Farage. He simply must come back as UKIP leader. The present Cabinet are pygmies compared with him and Lefty pygmies at that. In the paradigm shift that must come maybe Jacob Rees-Mogg could join UKIP. I agree not terribly likely unfortunately.
July 28, 2017
@ Leslie Singleton
He simply must come back as UKIP leader.
No way Leslie he should have been offered the House of Lords and bought in as an adviser/ consultant/ spin doctor any name you like to give some credibility to this very very weak bordering on pathetic cabinet.
July 28, 2017
Dear Turbo–This apology of a Cabinet isn’t strong enough to do any such thing–Farage would dwarf them all and people would care even less than they do already what Ministers say
July 28, 2017
Members of my family have worked for more than five years in Malaysia, India, and Kenya, and none of them have been offered free citizenship. Is it only open door Britain that offers free citizenship with 5 packet tops?
July 28, 2017
I want to know when the UK will become an independent, sovereign nation state once more?
When will the British parliament repeal the EC Act 1973 from the statute book?
I, quite simply, do not trust any politician, from any party, to revert us back to a state pre-1973
games being are played and peoples expectations manipulated. It is the nature of contemporary politics and I for one am utterly tired of it
July 28, 2017
@ Duncan
Me three
July 28, 2017
Games are being played indeed and one remains mindful that our host should be stopping them and not joining in, as inferred by today’s post when combined with Mr Hammond’s broadcast this morning.
July 28, 2017
Duncan, I agree, the electorate appear helpless in the UK. Quite simply the majority voted to leave the EU, something that should have been completed within 2 years of that 2016 vote, and what we might get is something that will drag on until at least 2022. Any agreements really ought to be finalised in the next 6 months and then a huge national effort put in to getting ready.
Games are indeed being played, there are too few who can be trusted.
July 28, 2017
Any nation that indulges in creating a generous welfare system is going to be magnet to those who live in countries that do not or is not as generous. Also it will create work for those same people as the welfare system disincentives low skilled indigenous workers from seeking employment. Nothing wrong with that if the there is sufficient wealth to cater for the increased demand on the nations resources such as schools, housing, healthcare, security services and of course the host countries culture is robust enough to cope with the influx of newer ones.
The EU freedom of movement system as far as I can see does not impinge on our wealth it in fact enhances it and it does not have any adverse effects on our culture. The bulk of those who arrive here from outside the EU have the opposite effect and we would do well to rigorously address that deficit. I am not advocating that we remain in the EU or that we should stop other immigrants from coming here. There are very many other pressing reasons for leaving the EU but there is a case for free movement to be allowed to continue. As for other immigrants that should be tightly controlled and limited to those who it will mutually benefit.
July 28, 2017
What of those who arrive *through* the EU, via Italy and Greece.
July 28, 2017
Keep up!
There are many non-EU immigrants who would benefit the UK more than the EU ones whom they could replace. That was the whole point of Vote Leave and a good part of the reason it won. What makes you think EU migrants who wouldn’t benefit the UK should have special consideration as compared to non-EU ones which would?
July 29, 2017
You and Anonymous have raised good objections which leads me to accept that once we leave the EU that all those seeking to live and work in the UK should only be allowed to do so on merit. However I stand by my assertion that EU freedom of movement generally speaking is not sufficient reason on it’s own for Brexit. There are other abundant reasons for us to leave and the sooner we do so without strings attached the better. Even if that means leaving without a deal.
July 28, 2017
I cannot see for the life of me how countries such as NZ, Oz, USA, Canada manage to get only the people they need for the jobs they have to fill. If they can do it then why not us? I could not just walk into any of these countries (even though I would love to) and decide I am going to settle there without going through a rigorous system where I have to have the skills needed and the points necessary and be able to house myself and pay for my own medical care. They do not want people who don’t meet this criteria. Why are we so incapable of doing this? Listening to Hammond this morning made me feel very depressed for the morning and I switched off. I listened long enough though to hear something said about not being able to trade freely because the EU isn’t going to let us. Pardon?? What has it got to do with the EU once we have left? It’s about time we told them what we want and got on with it. And your party needs desperately to start singing from the same hymn sheet so they don’t look as stupid as they do now.
July 28, 2017
Indeed.
The line is being pushed now by the BBC, Hammond & Co. that even having ACCESS to the single market requires freedom of movement.
July 28, 2017
I read 7 in 10 babies in London were born to foreign born parents and in a couple of Borough’s 9 in 10. Recently I read that 30% of new borns were to foreign born parents, how can the costs of this not be putting a pressure on. How long were the mother’s living in the UK before they are pregnant, how many of them are claiming benefits immediately, how many work prior to giving birth and for how long?
As 50% of British born teens are going to University and putting off becoming parents, and then with the implementation of an extra 9% graduate payment reducing their net income to less than half the only people able to afford to have babies will be those given housing by the State who come here with no connections and are made homeless when they can’t keep up private housing payment.
How many people not born in the UK are we now providing Council/Housing association to as a %, if it is low, tell us, because it’s not what we’re seeing with British born couples unable to get social housing and not rising up the waiting lists.
Let’s check on these large employers whether it is high skills they are missing or just the lowest grade staff they need to suck in. Exactly what skills are missing, my three children weren’t advised of this in College where they remain now until they are 18 – being skilled for no work – it’s bizarre!
July 28, 2017
A-tracy,
Would you suggest that immigrants must agree to only have 0, 1 or 2 children, or to be taxed based on number?
July 29, 2017
They can have as many children as they want without British benefits to pay for that choice. Our own future Queen was asked this week not to have more than two children!
I was more interested in funding the strain on our NHS maternity services specifically in London and if there are insufficient NI contributions raised from tax payers in London to cover healthcare and pensions then the aid budget that funds foreign needs elsewhere in the world needs tapping to pay for some of this extra cost we have taken on.
July 28, 2017
It seems quite clear that E Europeans are taking on low grade hotel-restaurant work and some struggle with the language. Our young people are being pushed higher up the ladder and some are struggling to acquire sufficient skills. Therefore overall we have a low productivity workforce. We either move from here to robots, making a portion of both domestic and E European workforce redundant, or the cleverer E Europeans learn the language and push our kids further down the ladder.
July 28, 2017
I see the Chancellor has been reported again today as saying that the Cabinet are all agreed on a three year transition deal after we leave the EU.
If this is true, then I am afraid he has just undermined completely our supposed negotiations with the EU, as we will now have to negotiate a transition deal as well as leaving criteria.
I thought there was going to be “NO NEGOTIATION IN PUBLIC”.
Fools the lots of them, absolute bloody fools.
I assume May is in favour of these comments, given he is the acting Prime Minister whilst she is away on holiday, or she will have to sack him on her return.
No wonder the EU says its confused !
July 28, 2017
My Brexit vote was entirely based on keeping the “unwanted” out . We are an over-populated country with most of our support systems bursting at the seams – it simply cannot continue in an unregulated fashion .
Only those who can contribute positively to our economy , abide by our laws , able to speak and write English and merge with our culture , should be allowed to settle here . Those who do not subscribe to these simple criteria should be “exported”. Anyone with a “sniff” of a criminal association should never be considered .
Australia has the right approach and we should be guided by their model .
July 28, 2017
Since when did the Minister for Immigration outrank the Chancellor ? Hammond clearly said freedom of movement isn’t going to end in March 2019
July 28, 2017
Refundable ÂŁBond
————————–
I am not keen on deciding immigration quotas based on need by sector.
Why?
1. Bureaucratic
2. The base data will always be out of date
3. The media – particularly the BBC – will feature a steady stream of personal stories of rejected immigrants, blaming the government
Much better imho is a market-based system.
We are told by some that immigrants are vital for our economy and certain services. If that is the case there is no reason why we should not have a system whereby a bond of a few thousand pounds is paid per immigrant by those who benefit (that could include the immigrants themselves).
This way, the beneficiaries – companies with skill shortages, universities who want overseas students, NHS etc etc can pay the bond in order to gain the benefit of the immigrant. There is also no reason why an individual could not buy their own bond.
If the bond is refundable if an immigrant returns within, say, 12 weeks, then short stays (tourism, business meetings etc) should not be affected as they could use an insurance scheme to fund the temporary payment of the refundable bond with premiums varying according to the over-stay risk.
Using such a scheme, the intake would more closely match the need and the exchequer would have an income.
As the bond would be refundable over a time-limited period, there would also be a financial inducement for immigrants that do not settle well to return.
NB I see no reason to discriminate between eu member state nationals and anyone else.
July 28, 2017
Ive just read on BBC website that Phillip Hammond said there will be a ‘transitional period’ ‘until 2022.
Does that include free movement of people til that time
July 28, 2017
Farmers are constantly saying that they need more cheap labour. Well, what happened to the workers they employed in previous years? If they haven’t gone home what are they now doing? Why do we need to import more every year? I’d like to see some statistics about where these people are and what they are doing. If they are languishing on benefits then this has to be stopped. If they have returned home then issuing seasonal work permits is the short-term answer. EU laws are already in place to send back migrants to their own countries if they aren’t in work but we, for some reason, don’t seem to use them. I’d also like to get rid of the 16-hour rule for Tax Credits whereby claimants work the bare minimum to gain the maximum in benefits. We shouldn’t be importing part-time workers who are being subsidised by the tax payer. When weighing up the benefits of migrant workers you should also look at the money haemorrhaging out of the country. A British worker will spend their money within the UK which boosts the economy whereas a foreign worker will send money back to their own country which has no benefit. Regarding the number of non-EU immigrants coming into the country, where the Government has the power to control the numbers, I just can’t understand the logic in allowing low-skilled immigration to continue. In the long term, we can’t continue absorbing this number of people and we are stacking up problems for future generations. The future lies with more mechanisation and robots. To achieve this we need more financial help towards investment.
July 28, 2017
Immigration has now provided its own dynamics.
NHS to hire 2,000 foreign doctors, WHY, because immigration has raised the population by 5 million in the past 10 years.
Builders to hire foreign staff to build houses, WHY, because 5 million immigrants require housing.
Schools to employ foreign staff as interpreters and teachers. WHY, because 2 million of the 5 million are children requiring school places.
GDP up (slightly) per capita stagnant. WHY, because about half the immigrants don’t work or contribute as it is their culture.
Follow Sweden to see the cultural enrichment being foisted on the population, no go areas, crime exploding and Stockholm the rape capital of Europe.
All down to conniving MPs displacing local communities according to UN dictat.
July 29, 2017
“All down to conniving MPs displacing local communities according to UN dictat.”
Do we really need paid imbeciles to wreck our country ? Would it be possible to be in any worse a situation without them ?
July 28, 2017
”The Minister for Immigration confirmed freedom of movement ends in March 2019 when we leave” – nonsense ! who are you trying to kid ?
Firstly, if any transition deal is in effect beyond March 2019 then freedom of movement and even the UK’s membership of the EU will NOT be at an end.
The 2 year transition for EU freedom of movement should have begun the day after the referendum, border controls should already be being put in place in readiness for March 2019. All the Government is doing is procrastinating.
If after March 2019 ‘when we leave’ – but still have membership of the single market, accepting the 4 freedoms and paying into EU coffers (aka a transitional deal)……
then as Jacob Rees Mogg put it ”if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck and looks like a duck – then it’s a duck.” in other words we are still in the EU !!
Please do not try fool the electorate – all you are doing is putting Jeremy Corbyn in number 10 a few years down the road.
July 28, 2017
We should stop all immigration by people who have nothing to offer. We don’t need any more car washes or similar, and we should be dealing with all those Big Issue sellers who have been here for years. Anybody not working and contributing should be told to go.
Anyone who is allowed to come must expect to be self sufficient for several years, until they have contributed enough not to be a drain on the economy, and they should not be entitled to social housing.
Oh, and when, if ever, is there going to be a serious movement to deport all those illegals we know are here. We need tough government that puts our own people first.
July 28, 2017
“we need to provide decent housing, healthcare, educational and transport provision for new arrivals.”
Pardon me? Your comment suggests there is an existing infrastructure that meets the needs of the UK population’s today? Head in the sand springs to mind!
Let’s get real. Achieve the above for the current citizens of the UK first. There is currently insufficient infrastructure, in all areas, to accommodate the 66+Million now, let alone new arrivals.
The above is a rather disingenuous political pipe dream and rather reminiscence of out of touch Labour’s incoherent socialistic initiatives that fall flat on their face at the first hurdle!
No disrespect John, but I believe you need to get outside the Westminster and Wokingham bubbles and visit other areas of the UK to better understand the reckless behaviour of previous political establishments in the inner cities and the wider communities at large; in particular the North of England?
Lib/Lab/Con have failed miserably in providing sufficient Schools, Housing, Security, Healthcare, good Educational attributes and the necessary inexpensive transportation. Rather they have indulged in expensive vanity projects to the detriment of the whole…..and the list is endless with no end in sight?
For example, the current UK road infrastructure is a disaster; one of the worst in living memory and let’s not go to the other areas of public concern regarding clear political wastage?
“Out of touch Politicians need to stop stomping on the ants and letting the elephants through?”
Should you wish to have a serious debate on the many ways companies tackle their manpower shortages, the solutions required and execution strategies put in place, I would be happy to discuss?
However, as always with politicians, in my personal experience here in the UK and on the Continent, Politicians are generally the last place I or my team would go for advice or indeed provide advice…we prefer to keep them at arm’s length for as experience shows, they don’t bring solutions only badly thought out hindrances?
But then I don’t need to tell you the obvious!
July 28, 2017
O/T
Why should the government bail out the councils who installed all this unsafe insulation?
The people who, ran the contract, designed the specification and wrote the tender documents did none of them have insurance against their design and work instructions being found to be not fit for purpose? Then there is the public liability insurance should things go wrong with a job and causes damage?
Should the case have to go to court and people are found accountable for neglecting their duty of care and contractual responsibilities then surely their employers are liable?
How much interest will have to be paid on any funding provided to completely renew the insulation?
July 29, 2017
I wondered if Council housing/housing associations had building insurance that all of us in private mortgaged or rental homes have to buy. Or do we through taxation have to cover yet another cost of the public sector.
July 28, 2017
Most people voted to end freedom of movement. We are overpopulated and the wanderers are claiming too much .Many would be annoyed if this was not curtailed.
July 28, 2017
I am supporting gov and the majority con party MPs with the rest of the PMs and lord, and not forgetting businesses and bankers and their media on open boarders forever, and stuff the plebs, which means con party voters, who just a moaning lot of fools who can’t do nothing about it and never will. All they are capable of is crying in their milk.
July 28, 2017
John, there are many foreigners here who got here illegally, destroyed or ended an innocent person’s life, then when faced with deportation, come out with the “I’ll be persecuted for this crime if sent back”, They are then allowed to stay – and walk our streets in freedom – with all the benefits of housing, benefits and NHS – -all as a reward for their crime. Some then use the “Right to a Family Life” scam just to get the rest of them over here to sit back, live off our taxes – -and laugh at us.
It is way past the point of changing this — they should be deported – -NO MATTER WHAT THEY CLAIM THEY FACE. They didn’t have ANY concern for their victim’s Human Rights – -why should they be allowed to have any?
July 28, 2017
Without a strict points system we are racing to the bottom. Generation Rent went off a cliff edge before the Referendum and whilst in the EU. The boomers are next.
Don’t let any Remainer give us crap about ‘cliff edges’.
Mass immigration caused Brexit – don’t let Amber Rudd or Philip Hammond forget it.
They can always join the Lib Dems if they want.
July 28, 2017
…The Home Secretary is consulting on how much EU migration we want once we are out…”
The Khan of London says people in London cannot breathe.
Answer: As many who bring in sufficient oxygen tanks for the full term of their stay here.
Fortunately, the Home Secretary is voted out next Election.
July 28, 2017
AAA) Foreign Nationals married to British Subject who are not themselves British Subjects should be offered Permanent Residency if not already under that status.
BBB) Our Guest Workers should be under Visa rules:
1) Seasonal workers: one year visa renewable by their Employers (who become their Sponsors). Employers should be required to evidence the need to employ each Guest Worker. When Workers Contracts and visa comes to an end and are not renewed by their Employer then those people should leave the Country within one month.
2) Service Sector Workers: 3 year visa renewable by Employers under the same rules as in (1)
3) Special category Workers (which includes Health Professionals) 5 year visas under the same application as in (1) and (2).
4) Investors: Same ruling applies as currently in force.
It is Employers who claim that we need Guest Workers citing staff or skill shortages in our labour market therefore we need to make them (Employers) much more accountable by placing the onus on them to act as Visa Sponsors for those that they bring in which will be much more of an incentive for those Employers to train up British Nationals to do the job. With the present system of Free Movement Employers don’t have to do this as there is a huge pool of labour from which to choose without any obligation or responsibility for the remainder of those workers who they do NOT need to employ. If Employers need labour then they should bring them in under their Visa Sponsorship and progress their Visa cancellation process when they no longer require them. EMPLOYERS NEED TO TAKE MORE RESPONSIBILITY IN THIS.
July 28, 2017
“freedom of movement to end, says minister” Well sort of! and not quite sure when.
We need zero immigration for at least ten years. Give us, no you, a chance to catch up with the infrastructure required following the last twenty or so years of uncontrolled immigration.
I believe there are around 1.5 million people in the (dis)UK currently unemployed. Among them there must be some people of good education who can be trained to fill skilled jobs (eg. nurses) The unskilled should be made to take jobs such as seasonal work. If they refuse, remove benefits.
July 29, 2017
Not forgetting those young people in *full time education* for want of anything better to do.
If we allowed youngsters to leave school at 16 and restricted university places to the top 5% as we used to then the true levels of UK unemployment would be revealed and they would be shocking. Probably higher than in the 70s/80s.
July 28, 2017
Immigration is not just about people. It is also about logistics and finance. Britain has roughly one-third the land mass of France yet supports the same population. Uncontrolled migration allied to high birth rates among immigrants has stretched our resources – housing, social services, NHS, police, prisons, roads, benefits system etc – to the limit in both aspects. The problem of formulating a credible immigration policy is further compounded by ignorance of who is entering or leaving the UK – legally or illegally.
Whatever is finally decided must take prime account of the fact that the UK has neither the space nor spare resources to continue with net immigration at current levels. As a minimum, we should require:
1. That only people with jobs are admitted, whatever their country of origin.
2. That no benefits are paid until after 4-5 years continuous NI contributions.
3. That no relatives are allowed entry until after 4-5 years after the principal arrives and then no benefits are paid them before a defined period of residence.
4. Removal of existing illegal immigrants and those who have entered in last 10 years an subsequently acquired criminal convictions.
The government are asking business to estimate their requirements for new entrants. This is useful up to a point. Unless the resulting strategy factors in the social impacts, it will be inadequate.
July 28, 2017
Philip Hammond was on TV this morning and kept talking about “a transitional period”, singular. It seems to me that is wrong, because our new agreements with the EU could provide for more than one transitional arrangement, with each designed for a different purpose and each running for an appropriate period.
If it is estimated that it will only take six months to sort out some practical change there will be no need to allow two years for that just because something else will need two years.
But as for our policy of future immigration from the EU I can see no need to agree any transitional period at all with the EU: on the day that we leave the EU its policy of the unfettered freedom of movement of persons ceases to apply and instead our own new, unilaterally determined, immigration policy starts.
Yes, it could still be a free and easy, more or less open door, policy, if that was what we wanted, or it could be a much more restrictive policy; but in neither case would that be by agreement with the EU, which would no longer have any rights over our policy and should not expect consultation let alone negotiation.
July 28, 2017
Mass migration is a serious problem both for the receiving countries and the countries of origin, which lose resources and talent. This includes mass migration to Britain from the rest of the EU, through freedom of movement.
One of the worst aspects of this from the point of view of a receiving country such as Britain – at least, it is certainly the case in Britain – is this: it provides an excuse for educators and employers alike to neglect our own people, especially our young people. This is very poor indeed.
In my opinion we need to move very quickly to a situation where immigration to Britain is at a minimum, not least for the reason given above. Targets are never met, and I don’t trust politicians who make these targets. But if we are to have a target, that should be zero – each immigrant’s entry to Britain ought to be justified individually.
July 28, 2017
“The government has always made clear it will be welcoming to talent and let business fill skill shortages that the domestic economy cannot manage.”
That’s simply not good enough. In the past governments have been poor at picking winners; this government has been better except that they have been selling them off to foreigners.
The government does not need to pick winners or sell our businesses off; all it has to do is realise what are the strategic areas of the economy. These are those without which we will be poorer as a nation , either financially or socially. Those businesses that add value and earn much of that from abroad are clearly strategic. Healthcare is also clearly strategic. Nontheless, having decided what areas are strategic and allowing those operations to recruit abroad, in the short term, should be the signal that we are not training enough of our own people and we need to do much better by reengineering tertiary education to satisfy the needs of the nation. (This of course does not apply to senior executives of multinationals.)
Non strategic areas of the economy include banksterism since there is no evidence it actually adds value to the econ0my rather than saps it. Non strategic areas should only be allowed to recruit here.
July 28, 2017
There should not be an EU specific quota, why should someone from France or Italy have precedence over someone from the US or China. We should be willing to take people from compatible cultures that fulfill a legitimate need and if we have capacity. The question is how to identify the legitimate need and police legal, illegal and temporary immigration.
July 28, 2017
I’ve just listened to Philip Hammond’s Today interview, and I suggest that apart from the matters he mentions we will also want to know on the day after we leave the EU that our immigration policy has once again been decided entirely by our Parliament, not imposed by the EU and not even the product of negotiation with the EU.
July 28, 2017
Migrants are still coming in their thousands aided by charities,the mafia and others.
Some will find their way into the UK by what ever means.
The answer is that charities monies must be stopped from being spent on saving migrants coming across the Mediteranean. Home land security must stop migrants reaching the UK.
Homeland security must arrest those persons aiding migrants reaching the UK.
We must take migration far more seriously
July 28, 2017
If what you say is correct, John, why does the Chancellor apparently maintain that our borders will remain open until 2021?
July 28, 2017
The government has been a complete failure on brexit keeping us in on current arrangements until the next election in 2022 when you are deservedly going to meet the wrath of the electorate for this. It is unbelievable how incompetent the UK negotiators have been undermined at every step by the poisonous Hammond.
July 28, 2017
Interesting that the Eire Government has come to the conclusion the only controllable Irish border is the sea with full port controls. When the UK joined the EEC in 1973 Eire and Denmark came along too, Denmark has probably become too integral to leave but it is a question for Eire, given their economy is heavily biased towards UK and USA.
July 28, 2017
On a related topic – after the disaster that befell those poor people in Grenfel Tower the other day it was announced that there would be an amnesty for anyone living there and that the legality of their being here would not be investigated. There were stories of people on benefits supposedly sub letting and pocketing the rent. Now I don’t know if there is any proof of this but given that the government issued this amnesty if people come forward then the old “no smoke without fire” bit could apply.
I do not believe that this disaster coincidentaly hit the only place in the country where this was occurring. Can you tell us what efforts HMG is putting in to investigate these abuses in similar properties in the UK? Would two words commencing with the letters F and A be wide of the mark?
July 28, 2017
It will equally apply to the British people.
No regret about easily moving to work or retire on the continent, Mr Redwood ?
Reply I have no wish to work on or retire to the continent
July 28, 2017
But some of your constituents may not share your opinion or life plan, yet their options will be seriously curtailed by Brexit.
That’s what I find particularly weird in your position, Mr Redwood. You basically campaigned for our children to have less rights than we currently enjoy.
I find that illogical.
Reply I campaign for all of us to belong to a confident self governing country.We are restoring UK democracy.
July 29, 2017
It’s funny you would say that. I hoped you noticed that the EU is doing all it can to make sure Poland remain one.
Undermining the independence of judges under the pretext of fighting communism bring back some bad memories.
Let’s hope cooler heads in the Polish government prevail. The EU is not some kind of supermarket for subsidies. It’s a community of countries that share common values. An independent judiciary is one of them and pretty high on the list.
Can the EU count on your support on this one, Mr Redwood ?
July 30, 2017
What was so democratic about removing the elected government of Italy, of Greece, and of compelling people of other countries to keep voting again until they came up with the right answer?
The current attempts to put the Visigrad countries in the wrong are clearly designed to excuse the EU from paying them their allowances after Brexit. The big members of the EU can break the rules whenever they like and at the same time insist on others sticking to rules they define.
July 30, 2017
Just one example of a big country breaking the rules: Frau Merkel extending the right of Free Movement of People to other continents without consulting the other 27.
July 29, 2017
My old next door neighbours children both work in the States and have for the past four years, a Cousin works and lives in Canada, my colleagues son works in Korea and another in Japan. We do not get ruled by these Countries to allow this so what’s your point?
The EU doesn’t pay British people’s healthcare in the EU the Brits are recharged.
July 30, 2017
“The EU doesn’t pay British people’s healthcare in the EU the Brits are recharged” … which saves the NHS ÂŁ500m/year in the process as it is cheaper to care for a pensioner in Spain than to build the infrastructure that would be required if they all had to be cared for in the UK.
Which raises an interesting point: given how much the NHS is saving, will the Spanish authorities be tempted to ask for more ?
There are 300k British nationals living in Spain versus 85k spaniards living in the U.K. so the boot is pretty much on Spain’s foot on this one and Jamie Oliver just did a culinary crime against Tortilla on TV to add insult to injury.
August 2, 2017
Are you sure that 300,000 people in Spain cost the NHS so much that it saves ÂŁ500,000,000 per year?! Where did you get those figures from?
Do you really believe that Spain would risk their UK tourism by charging UK visitors and residents so much for health care, when most of us don’t use the free health systems in Spain we take out additional travel insurance?
July 28, 2017
Dear John. We continue to want ‘skilled immigration’, but no ‘unskilled immigration’. We do not differentiate between European and non-European immigration, wherever the best skills are, (including the crucial ability to speak English!) that is who we want.
July 28, 2017
Phli said today, end on march 2022 just before next election and after election who ever wins they change they minds again for another 5 years, and then repeat it. Your as good as finished, bye bye islanders.
July 28, 2017
Que ?
July 28, 2017
It doesn’t take a PhD and Masters degrees to get out in the fields early in the morning to pick fruit and veg while it is still fresh, it takes instead the special determination and dedication of getting out if bed at 5 o’clockevery morning, morning aftet morning. Nor does it take a lot of british know-how to get to work in the fish factories and hotels and restaurants and be on time and to put in a good days work- and as we know the east europeans and the foreigners can still do this work on timè and without complaining..just like the irish built the roadways years ago- where would our restaurants be without the foreign chefs? so how it’s going to be after they, the foreigners, have all left is another question. One commentator said that we can still train up our own young english people..read on.
Yesterday i was reading about the shortage of nurses in the NHS..so ms rudd thinks having everyone who comes here in the future will have to be registered – was wondering does that include fingerprinting and bio photos..well we’ll just have to wait and see how the EU reacts to having it’s nationals treated in this fashion..so dream on..we are surely heading to the cliff edge inch by inch.
July 28, 2017
Who really cares what the EU thinks.
July 28, 2017
I am dismayed listening to Philip Hammond and Amber Rudd, we voted to leave to regain sovereignty and protect are borders. They are both saying free movement will continue and PH saying I think the words he has said in a meeting with big businesses was ‘standing still transition’ filled me with dread. So far all I see is all parties now ignoring or putting their own interpretation on Brexit. The EU demanding the ECJ still has to have some control in this country is anathema to all who voted to leave their jurisdiction. How can you be a sovereign country controlled any other country!! Imigragtion needs to ends fast if we wait even until March 2019 the NHS will have collapsed, schools will be full to bursting, there is not enough housing now without any more piling in. All immigrants are not working in the NHS but a lot are using it. I have no problem with controlled immigration with the infrastructure in place to support it. We have to have checks on who comes in to this country to safeguard the public. That is a major role of the Government and it is not happening. Labour have done so many u turns on the single market etc heaven knows what they would do, my guess is give EU everything they want and more!! Unless the whole of gov’t get their act together and starting listening to the public there will be no govnment because no one will bother voting! I know what I voted for when I voted leave and am sick and tired of people saying we didn’t understand we have changed our minds – my family, friends and I have not changed our minds in fact I know a lot of remainers who now want to leave. How do we get our voices heard in Parliament apart from the ballot box ? As a country that prided itself on democracy what a shameful example we are setting.
July 28, 2017
J.White
I agree with all you say. It sounds to me reading through this blog that everyone is sick and tired of this government. They are not acting like true Conservatives but want to be all things to all people. Just act like a responsible government and not a load of leftie luvvies please. We are all sick of the lack of democracy and the ridiculous policies and vanity projects we read about. We are sick of paying for half the world to come here and live and sick of propping up the rest of the UK with no representation in parliament. One day perhaps MP’s might start listening to what the people want and if they don’t then they won’t exist for much longer.
July 28, 2017
1. “take capital costs into account” – is there am NPV type calculation available? What is the addition to GDP per new immigrant c.f. GDP per capita?
2. As part of our foreign aid can people come temporarily to send remittances back?
3. Will a future points based system include language, commitment to secularism etc?
4. Can international students graduating or post graduating at uk universities be given consideration in a future points based system – particularly if sponsored by uk firms?
5. Should universities be involved in underwriting loans … Perhaps who studies what might then change?
July 28, 2017
Why is the Chancellor Mr Hammond allowing the media to infer he is suggesting the opposite? Why doen’t he and the Home Secretary Rudd and Mr Gove appear simultaneously on the same platform to the Press and affirm their joint belief and action. Too simple?
Does Mr Hammond wish a twenty year transitional period for him to crawl on to the stage?Is he unfirm of foot, full of uncertainty of the next foot forward?.
July 28, 2017
It’s just as well that I’m not involved in these EU negotiations because I’m getting fed up with the sheer arrogance and stupidity of the bureaucrats of the EU side and might not keep calm about things like this:
https://euobserver.com/uk-referendum/138641
“UK and EU stuck on ‘philosophy’ of Brexit bill”
Firstly, is it not typical of the EU that their top priority is not protecting the economies of European against any risk of damage from Brexit but rather just screwing as much money as possible out of us, when has that ever been any different?
Secondly, if they think we should pay a bill then send us a detailed itemised invoice with justification of every item, and moreover make that document public, don’t expect us to take the lead by telling them how much we think we should be paying because the answer to that could very properly be “nothing”, and “go whistle”.
July 28, 2017
Despite what the Minister says there is obviously a groundswell of opinion by people who have power and some say in the matter that EU free movement will continue for some considerable time.
A day or two ago a BBC employed “expert” chappie was explaining to the newsreader in passionate terms (do they go on a special Shakespearean-type drama course?) how life may well grind to a halt in the UK if we do not continue to allow thousands of newcomers. He claimed that 700,000 EU immigrants are employed in the hospitality industry with dire consequences if this was not allowed to continue.
Jeremy Corbychev claims our wages are deplorably low so why do these EU citizens continue to come here? Its claimed that skill shortages among our young people are a prime reason for this immigration so why isn’t Jeremy pushing for short degree courses or apprenticeships in bartending, waiting on tables, using a coffee machine or making sandwiches?
July 28, 2017
Hammond is working for business, not the electorate. He is ignoring the result of the referendum and pushing out Brexit delaying propaganda.
If Hammond gets his way, freedom of movement will not end. The man makes me sick.
July 29, 2017
You were promised all the benefits and none of the costs of EU membership by Vote Leave. Now you are finding out they lied to you. It must hurt to be taken for a fool by Boris, Gove, Redwood etc.
Reply Not so. It will be better when we have finally left, can spend our own money, make our own laws.Why are you so down on the UK and our capacity to govern ourselves?
July 29, 2017
We can’t govern ourselves. Look at the Irish border, we can’t deal with that problem “ourselves”, can we? Same with trade, we need deals. The EU gives us extra powers, it doesn’t take powers away. We should stay in the EU, now it is clear how weak we are trying to go it alone
July 31, 2017
I cannot help but see Mr Redwood gradually change his tune in his answers.
Brexit before the negotiations started was supposed to be all about unleashing the UK’s true economic potential by unshackling it from a deadbeat EU.
After the negotiations’ start, it is becoming more and more about sovereignty and less and less about economics.
Fewer and fewer mentions by all the lead Brexiters of all the economic benefits that was supposed to derived from it.
So where is the bonfire of EU regulations stifling UK businesses ? Where is the queue of ex-Commonwealth countries eagerly waiting to sign FTAs on British terms ? How is project Empire 2.0 doing ?
Reply On the contrary, we are very keen to spend the ÂŁ12bn of savings on our priorities here in the UK and to get on with trade deals with the non EU world.
July 31, 2017
But exactly what has Mr Fox’s department achieved over a full year ?
Reply Opened discussions with a number of countries for a free trade deal to sign soon after we leave the EU
July 28, 2017
Over supply of workers in a particular sector devalues them, under supply workers in a sector and you over value them.
A target number should be the basis of immigration, each year how much do we think we need to fill the posts, no more no less as an estimate. Obviously just an estimate, one we could get better at over the years. Each industry then allocated X number of Visas with an option to adjust if growth in an industry takes off quickly within a year.
That way young apprentices can be more confident of getting a place rather than being out gunned by trained and qualified workers from Eastern Europe vying for the same level of income.
July 28, 2017
Rudderless is how I would describe Amber Rudd’s late response to the Brexit vote. It is also further confirmation that Brexiteers are needed to manage matters concerning Brexit.
If I was a Remainer I would guess I wouldn’t know what to do. Best to put Brexiteers in these roles as they know the direction to take. Amber Rudd will want uncontrolled unlimited immigration, therefore has no reference point to understand why and how that should be changed. That’s why she is late starting this report and what ever the findings of the report are, she won’t understand its reasoning if it means managing population and migration numbers.
If someone had no knowledge of, or desire or inclining to know anything about, say football, then asking them what formation should they have for the next game against so and so would be a waste of time. Well, that’s what we are asking the Remainer Home Secretary to do.
July 28, 2017
The UK borders are effectively porous. Border defence forces are largely ineffective and no one, apparently, has any idea at all how many illegals enter the UK each year, nor where they have disappeared to within the dark economy. Those that we do actually identify and try to deport apply every rule in the book to stay here and we, the law abiding taxpayers, hand out millions in legal aid for them to fight their case to stay. Actually, I don’t think anyone knows any more what the UK population is in terms of total numbers, which is frightening thought and makes it almost impossible for any government to plan for the required resources to meet the demand of known numbers of the population.
Our roads, hospitals, social services, schools, housing needs and much of the rest of our national infrastructure are under such pressures arising from over population that parts of it might well soon collapse, yet no politician of any hue will say that enough is enough, that we simply must bring immigration under control or face dire consequences arising from overpopulation density when, like cornered rats mass hysteria or anger breaks out as a result.
We are told that our businesses and trade depends on more immigration. How can that be true, when so many of those that do enter work for low wages depend on various income support and tax assistance and increase the demand on the taxpayer to bail them out? Because of devolution and uncontrolled immigration introduced by Blair that, coupled with the removal of England from the map of Europe agreed to by the then government and ignored ever since by all governments, with the fact that immigrants are producing the majority of new births and the fear of all politicians of arousing ire of the ethnic English people, England must inevitable cease to be a recognised entity within the UK other than as a cash-cow to pay for it all. I despair of it all….
July 28, 2017
I bet Corbyn is spending is holiday time in the Socialist utopia of Venezuela. He said it was a paradise and we should all appreciate it. Certainly looks good. Food is conveniently put out for everyone in black bin bags and you just help yourself free of charge. You can get your very own club, knife, molotov cocktail and help build barricades. etc ed
July 28, 2017
The report the HS has commissioned sounds as if it isn’t going to measure the cost of out of control mass immigration in the way Lord Green would and already has.
The pity of all this is that if only David Cameron had done his patriotic duty and reappointed the cabinet the day after the referendum we would not be in this mess. He should have put in people who believed in Brexit and understood what to do. He should then have got straight on with repealing the 1972 act and on no account got involved with article 50 and EU negotiations to get out. We should have been completely independent by our own resolution, and only then negotiated if the EU wanted to.
Free movement should have stopped straight away. There was no need to continue it. Of course Big Business wants cheap biddable labour paid for by the taxpayer. That way of doing things has been addictive but it has to stop.
Given the choice between educated Eastern Europeans and the rest of the world I would choose the former as they have proved mostly a boon, but what remainiacs especially need to understand is that the rest of the world can now very easily come by an EU passport. That is why Free Movement from the EU has to stop, asap.
The other thing we have to do is come out of the ECHR and the Geneva Convention. Both are being grossly abused, to the detriment of Europe and the countries from which people are emigrating, and so both have outlived their original purpose which was to safeguard Europeans.
July 28, 2017
JR.I see Sally Wardle has a large photo of you as her backdrop/background to her Twitter account. Famous at last!
Sally WardleVerified account
@sally_wardle
General reporter for @PA – views my own sally.wardle@pressassociation.com
London
pressassociation.com
Joined November 2011
Reply
Funny definition of fame
July 28, 2017
Amber Rudd in her infinite wisdom is only asking business what they want. And they want the continuation of cheap labour to boost their profits while transferring the real costs of working tax credits, benefits, housing, schooling, healthcare, pensions, elderly care, and transport and associated infrastructure to the taxpayer, while society at large and the impact on the lives of domestic residents are completely ignored.
So John please tell us this: Would you be happy for a child of yours to be in a state school where English speakers are in a minority both for pupils and staff ? No I thought not.
July 29, 2017
Oh don’t worry. This is the last Tory government ever.
And do you know what ? I don’t think they care at all.
Whichever way we vote these days we get Blairism.
July 28, 2017
Unless the salary is at least ÂŁ50k+ with full private bond style insurance , then we probably have enough people already that can do the job with a bit of effort ,training and focus over a few years.
Employers may actually have to compete for labour for once!
July 29, 2017
My thoughts John are that there are too many mixed messages from ministers at the moment. At the same time we have a chancellor who’s suggesting an off the shelf deal possibly followed by a transition deal. The former would, I suspect, limit our ability to control our borders in 2019. Transgressing slightly, I’d like someone to ask the aforementioned chancellor how he feels using the term avoiding a cliff edge is strengthening our negotiating position, and how many times he’s heard senior EU figures using such terminology about the need for the EU to avoid a cliff edge?
Regarding the immigration question, I don’t think it’s about numbers, we need a fair quota of unskilled as well as skilled immigrants, it’s about having the ability to decide the numbers and needs as a country, or at least for our government to do so that is accountable on the issue to the people every few years.
Amber Rudd made, for me, a toe curling reference about immigration in her speech at last years conference, when she suggested that firms should publish the amount of foreign workers they employ. This wasn’t the kind of language that was espoused by mainstream figures in the Leave campaign. It sounded to me very much like a caricature of what a Leave supporter should like to hear as envisaged by a hard core Remainer. Oops!
July 29, 2017
The government may be saying that the EU’s “freedom of movement” may end although even this is not clear, particularly the timing, but I have no faith that it wishes to curb immigration.
Nothing has been done about non-EU immigration.
Nothing has been done to put in a system to enable us to know who is actually in the country and who has failed to leave when their visa has ended.
I do not see any progress on more effective border controls or tackling fraudulent spouse immigration.
This is despite the fact that continued massive scale immigration is impoverishing our environment and putting immense pressure on housing, schools, healthcare, welfare benefits, infrastructure, courts and prisons. England is already the most densely populated major country in Europe.
No system has been put in place to protect us from health tourism such as requiring all (non-EU at the moment) travellers to the UK to have health insurance.
If business requires foreign workers after the “freedom of movement” ends there is no reason why these workers cannot come on a temporary visa. There is no need for all immigrant workers to be always given immediately given full residency permits.
July 30, 2017
The reacquisition of sovereignty implies that we can change the amount of EU (and other) immigration any time that we wish. It will not be a matter of Treaty. It will be a continuing decision of the UK executive, no doubt involving consultation with parliament and people.
The easiest way to make this clear to everybody is to end permanent immigration for at least 20 years. During this time, foreigners will be granted temporary work permits and/or residence permits. These would apply to the individual and not his/her family and for the most part the permits would be for one year renewable annually at our discretion.
With this scheme in place, we could admit foreigners to work in our health care industry to cope with democratic bulge in the number of elderly without worrying about them being permanent. It would also make it less necessary to distinguish between refugees and economic migrants. They would all be temporary.
July 30, 2017
I had to take a relation on a little holiday to a Westcountry seaside resort recently. It was not far from the English Midlands and easily accessible by car, train and bus. Not having been to a British seaside for years, I was surprised to see that a large proportion of visitors were very overweight and very unhealthy looking. Families of fat parents and fat children waddled past, drinking sugary cans of drink and eating chips. Then I read that the rate of growth to lifespan had reduced to hardly anything over the last five years. It could be that the forecast for numbers of old people requiring care and the need for care assistants, doctors and nurses will not be as great as forecast.
July 30, 2017
Immigration policy must be returned to what it was before Tony Blair deliberately opened the EU and non EU floodgates.
It worked perfectly well. It was not complicated. Let us not pretend it is impossible; or that we must either invite everyone or have no-one – this is childish.
My local hospital has always been staffed internationally, long before the EU or T Blair stuck their disastrous oar into migration policy.
So it was perfectly possible to recruit all the talent we needed under this regime.
July 31, 2017
Can we return the border from Calais to Dover as it was pre-Blair, then?
The people of Calais would really appreciate it. Tx.
July 31, 2017
the point is that the home-secretary has changed that policy since the comments from the immigration minister, so there now will be a transition with similar rules as now, so let us finish this hypothetical conversation, which no longer applies
July 31, 2017
I support this enquiry, but it should be extended to include all immigration, not just that from the EU.