Mrs Merkel backs a Euro budget, Euro Treasury and Euro Economics and Finance Minister

Today we learn that Mrs Merkel is responding positively to Mr Macron’s overtures for a more integrated EU government with more power and larger budget. It will be interesting to see just how much extra money in practice Germany wants to put behind these centralising initiatives.

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  1. Know-Dice
    Posted August 29, 2017 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    Isn’t that exactly what we expected from the “Five Presidents’ Report”?

    And one of the many reasons to pull out of the EU

    • alan jutson
      Posted August 29, 2017 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

      Know Dice

      Exactly but no one on either side wanted to mention the Five Presidents report at the time of the referendum.

      Given it contains how they (those in charge) want the EU to progress in the future, I was amazed no one took to the media with it, because if you voted remain this is in effect what you would be supporting.

      reply I remember setting it out on more than one occasion.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted August 29, 2017 at 4:23 pm | Permalink

        Indeed but the bias especially of the BBC, Cameron’s government the other parties (other than UKIP) and the state sector in general over the EU issue was massive.

        Just as it is over climate alarmism. The BBC were at it again with the UK flooding as if occasional very heavy rain was something new. Climates change always have always will get over it BBC. The way to save lives is to things organise round the weather, the earth quakes and the volcanoes – as best we can. It is far easier to do this if we are richer, but the expensive greencrap religion makes us poorer.

        Suggestions that should build more windmills, PV, bio fuels and all drive electric cars to prevent such flooding are completely half witted.

        • fedupsoutherner
          Posted August 30, 2017 at 6:52 am | Permalink

          LL. Yes, have you noticed how many wind farms are in Scotland now and yet the weather has deteriorated? Is the weather in the world getting better? No. We have to accept that to spend money coping with living with the changing climate is a better option instead of wasting it on white elephants. Everyone is saying the weather is getting worse but nobody is really changing anything with all this green crap. Direct action is a preferable option. I expect Trump will get the blame for the hurricane in Texas as he has come out of the Paris Climate Change Agreement . You couldn’t make it up.

          • margaret
            Posted August 30, 2017 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

            It is probably connected with the eclipse, our moon is our lifeline , however I shouldn’t worry the end of the world has been predicted in September…. around 20th-23rd. Nobody to blame for anything then

      • Captcha King
        Posted August 29, 2017 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

        Alan Jutson.

        I heard the 5P report mentioned several times by Leave campaigners. It was dismissed as hysteria.

        So why didn’t Remain campaign on this exciting prospect ? That they didn’t even mention it speaks volumes.

        A Remain campaigner should be proud to wear the EU flag most prominently and should be most proud to stand for centralisation of government and the unification of armies and economies.

        That is the project.

        That is what they should have been pleased to advertise but didn’t for some reason.

        • Denis Cooper
          Posted August 30, 2017 at 9:30 am | Permalink

          “So why didn’t Remain campaign on this exciting prospect ? That they didn’t even mention it speaks volumes.”

          Spot on. When I had a letter in our local newspaper challenging EU supporters to tell us how they thought it would develop in the future none of them replied. Usually so vocal, they had nothing whatever to say about that.

      • alan jutson
        Posted August 29, 2017 at 6:16 pm | Permalink

        reply to reply

        Then I stand corrected John, but problem is good as your site is, it is often not picked up by the main media and read by great numbers of people, more is the pity.

        Clearly the remain side did not want anyone to know about this report at all. !

        Reply I also debated in Parliament! Hardly a secret.

    • Len Grinds
      Posted August 30, 2017 at 7:33 am | Permalink

      Nonsense. The Five Presidents report concerned the Eurozone, which the UK is no part of. Boris Johnson and John Redwood mentioned the Report during the campaign as part of their consistently false depiction of the Uk’s relationship with the EU

      • Edward2
        Posted August 30, 2017 at 8:25 am | Permalink

        It’s reality not nonsense.
        Your argument that it concentrates on those in the Eurozone is a poor argument.
        The Five Presidents report exists as a strategy for the future of the EU.
        Mix in with it a growing qualified majority voting system and the Five Presidents report shows where the EU wants to be in the future.
        If you are a fan of the EU you should be telling us why that future is a good one not trying to deny it has any effect.

      • Know-Dice
        Posted August 30, 2017 at 8:26 am | Permalink

        If we had voted to remain, how long do you think that position could be sustained?

        We would be a second class member of the EU, half in half out probably worse option of all…

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted August 30, 2017 at 9:25 am | Permalink

        Which the UK is not yet part of – partly thanks to Tory rebels such as our host, to the profound grief of others who could not wait to hand over control of our monetary policy to the EU – and now will never be a part of, thank God.

      • formula57
        Posted August 30, 2017 at 9:28 am | Permalink

        Although of course Mr. Heseltine said he thought the UK would eventually join the Euro currency, a view echoed by some in the Commission.

        Being in the Evil Empire but not in the Euro surely would soon be akin to being a non-playing member of a sports club, i.e. largely pointless but fulfilling some weak need to belong in some way.

  2. Lifelogic
    Posted August 29, 2017 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    Indeed it will be interesting. But will T May ensure it is not the UK taxpayer stumping up? How are the promised profits on the Osborne old Euro rescue loans he and Darling I think, forced us to stump up coming on?

    • Bob
      Posted August 29, 2017 at 4:00 pm | Permalink


      “How are the promised profits on the Osborne old Euro rescue loans”

      doubt we’ll ever see that money again. I expect it will be written off as part of the “divorce” settlement.

      reply I think the Greek loan has been repaid to the UK and the Irish one will

  3. LenD
    Posted August 29, 2017 at 4:09 pm | Permalink

    Mrs Merkel is in electioneering mode so we’ll just have to wait a bit to see.. but i can’t say i’m surprised.. Europe is definitely heading in the way of becoming something of a superstate with its own european guess. so it will need a european budget..this has to be the way with what is happening in Ukraine and now also with almost virtual dictatorship in Turkey. so then lets hear it for a few bars of ” ode to joy”

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted August 30, 2017 at 9:41 am | Permalink

      As I mentioned the other day:

      it is a rather whimsical fact that the EU anthem was originally commissioned by the Philharmonic Society of London, but there is the more serious issue of the royalties which the EU should be paying for its use.

      OK, so there may be no legal basis at all for us to demand such royalties; but so what, who cares, we should still do what they do and noisily demand that they must come up with an initial offer for the compensation they will pay.

  4. Bert Young
    Posted August 29, 2017 at 4:15 pm | Permalink

    ” Zilch ” is the word . Germany has consistently decided not to prop up the Euro in the past and it is most unlikely to do so now .

  5. margaret
    Posted August 29, 2017 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    She is also unhappy at Poland wanting judiciary independence as it breaks EU rules. More nations are feeling the heavy boot on them.

  6. Captcha King
    Posted August 29, 2017 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

    As I recall it not one single representative in Remain’s campaign told us what the finished EU would look like. Not one of them advertised the exciting plans that the EU has for centralised government and economic union nor how this would benefit us.

    All they campaigned on was fear. Fear of leaving the comfy ‘status quo’ that is the EU.

    That the EU is the finished article was the biggest lie told in the referendum. As big as the whopper told to the people in 1975.

    The whole thing is based on one big lie.

  7. Denis Cooper
    Posted August 29, 2017 at 4:46 pm | Permalink

    Off-topic, the Telegraph has finally worked out that there is a one-sided propaganda war in progress:

    “Revealed: How EU uses ‘dirty tricks’ on social media to wage Brexit war on Britain”

    Now we just need David Davis’s department to finally wake up and see the obvious, and then do something to at least even it up.

    Remember that as we are leaving the UK government no longer has any incentive to cover up what has been going on in the EU over past years; rather it can make sure that the rest of the world is brought to a proper understanding of what a rotten organisation, and so an unreliable counter-party, the EU is.

    For example, when the EU’s much-vaunted supposed central organ of democracy, its Parliament, was unlawfully constituted for two whole years thanks to the arrogance and obstinacy of the German government under Angela Merkel; the UK government under David Cameron obliged her by keeping very quiet about that, but now there is no longer any need to preserve that silence so why not tell the world about it?

  8. acorn
    Posted August 29, 2017 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

    Merkel said nothing of the sort. Merkel said she regarded transforming the bailout fund (the European Stability Mechanism) into a “European monetary fund” — an idea floated by her finance minister, Wolfgang Schäuble, earlier this year — as a “very important reform.” (Politico).

    Politico continues. Merkel’s remarks, less than a month before the German election, suggest she has little appetite for the kind of sweeping overhaul of the eurozone that countries such as France have been advocating. Instead, the comments suggest Merkel will continue to push the current German strategy for the eurozone, placing emphasis on economic reforms in member countries rather than pooling financial risk through common debt issuance and other measures.

    The Mirror always sums up Brexiters the best. “Higher prices in shops and more expensive holidays in Spain are just the start, with the bill to be picked up by an electorate duped by a Brexit grotesquerie guilty of heinous deceptions and lies.

    So let’s hold to account the guilty menagerie of Con artists and UKIP Purple Tory fraudsters, who sold our country down the river.”

  9. Denis Cooper
    Posted August 29, 2017 at 5:02 pm | Permalink

    “Why is George Osborne always supporting the EU against Britain?”

    By rights that is a question which should be put to him by a tribunal tasked with deciding whether such people should be deprived of their UK citizenship and deported or merely stripped of their civil rights and interned …

    • brian
      Posted August 30, 2017 at 7:26 am | Permalink

      If Osborne is still a member of the Conservative Party he should be expelled. He seeks to undermine a Tory government.
      His plans for inheritance taxes were enough to make Brown wobble. For that he was mistakenly branded as a political genius. Now, he is just a bitter ex-politician.

      • Chris
        Posted August 30, 2017 at 11:37 am | Permalink

        I believe Osborne has delusions of grandeur, and simply cannot accept that he has been rejected and is out.

    • Bob Dixon
      Posted August 30, 2017 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

      I am with you there.

  10. Michael James
    Posted August 29, 2017 at 5:09 pm | Permalink

    Will German taxpayers agree to becoming the milch cow of the European Union?

    • Turboterrier.
      Posted August 30, 2017 at 6:47 am | Permalink

      @ Michael James

      They have already have they not? They just don’t realise it!!!

    • Andy
      Posted August 30, 2017 at 8:03 am | Permalink

      They already are, only Merkel daren’t tell them.

  11. Duncan
    Posted August 29, 2017 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    ‘The lamps are going out all over Europe, we shall not see them lit again in our life-time’..

    Slowly but surely democratic sovereign nations across Europe are being lined up, swallowed and subsumed into an all powerful political entity. The UK’s EU exit has, it appears, focused the minds of the EU bigots who are now, without scarcely trying to conceal their intentions, rushing headlong into full political, economic and monetary union

    This is very sad indeed. Direct democratic control of the politically powerful is absolutely essential to a healthy nation state and yet here we see the very opposite occurring before our very eyes on the continent of Europe. It will end in tears

    • Turboterrier.
      Posted August 30, 2017 at 6:49 am | Permalink

      @ Duncan

      It will end in tears

      I do hope so just to hear how all the Cleggs, Osbornes and Soubry’s of this world get around it. You won’t see them for dust

    • Mike Stallard
      Posted August 30, 2017 at 7:21 am | Permalink

      Worse is to come.
      When this country becomes a “third country” at midnight on 29-30th March 2019 – in a few months’ time – it seems very likely that all transport – air, lorries, cars, even shipping and horses – will simply not be accepted into the EU.
      Nobody seems to believe that this is going to happen. But poor old M. Barnier has told us time and times again.
      Just as all the major players int he EU have been talking for decades about “More Europe” and “ever closer Union” and “the United States of Europe”.

      Reply Don’t be silly! Of course the planes will be flown and the lorries driven as before.

      • Edward2
        Posted August 30, 2017 at 8:28 am | Permalink

        You have been brainwashed by Project Fear Mike.

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted August 30, 2017 at 8:50 am | Permalink

        Same old “third country” tosh, ever since your mentor introduced you to the term you’ve been almost childishly keen to spread the word … what you’re missing, and apparently will never grasp, is the elementary fact that if you’re not a party to the EU treaties then the EU will treat you as a “third country”, and the EU will treat you as a “third country” even if like Norway you are a party to some other treaty such as the EEA treaty.

      • fedupsoutherner
        Posted August 30, 2017 at 4:12 pm | Permalink


        At least your entries are good for a laugh.

      • Mark B
        Posted August 30, 2017 at 8:14 pm | Permalink


        I think those disasters can just about be diverted, we hope. But you will not get much favour from some here. They cannot separate the EU from the member countries. They do not understand that the EU will act in its own interests and not in the interests of member countries like Greece, Ireland, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Belgium, Finland, Hungary, Poland, Czech Rep. and others. And those countries want to remain members of the Stupid Club, we are leaving so what chance us ? But you will never get the people here to understand that because our kind host believes that it is all about cars, wine, cheese, flowers and so on. It isn’t ! You know it, and I know it. But in time they will come to know it !

        • Denis Cooper
          Posted August 31, 2017 at 10:00 am | Permalink

          So why should the EU, a contracting party to the EEA agreement, go along with the UK staying in the EEA as Mike wants? There are 32 parties to that agreement – 28 EU, 3 EFTA, the EU itself – and all of them would have to assent to the necessary treaty changes.

  12. LiamB
    Posted August 29, 2017 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

    Don’t know what Mrs Merkel is going to do or not do? It’s really of no concern of us now.

  13. rose
    Posted August 29, 2017 at 7:02 pm | Permalink

    I was wondering how long before she caved in. In theory anyway.

    This should concentrate the Irish minds.

  14. Original Richard
    Posted August 29, 2017 at 8:41 pm | Permalink

    Will the EU supporters who maintain we should continue to pay for “commitments made in the past” expect us to fund this further integration because a previous government signed us up to “ever closer union” ?

  15. rose
    Posted August 29, 2017 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    Are these co-ordinated and contrived attacks by Project Fear on Boris anything to do with his being the only cabinet minister who has made known what he thinks of the EU’s extortionate ransom demand? There doesn’t seem to be any substance to them, just a lot of bile.

  16. Prigger
    Posted August 29, 2017 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    Kezia Dugdale has resigned as Scottish Labour Leader. Does anyone know how many important Labourites have resigned positions of all kinds since Corbyn was the only remaining Labour member with one eye?

  17. Tom Rogers
    Posted August 29, 2017 at 11:06 pm | Permalink

    This will be one of the consequences of Brexit: without the British counterbalancing influence, the Franco-German axis will now push towards a fully integrationist EU, in effect the EU as a state in its own right. This could be based on a ‘Western’ ultra-federalist core or it could be pursued for the whole bloc. It may be that over the next five years, we see the Visegrád states pull away, maybe Greece too.

    I’ve always believed that the Brexit vote was privately welcomed in Brussels, or if not in Brussels, then certainly in Paris and Berlin. I really doubt the Germans in particular have ever wanted us involved and they are probably relieved we are going.

    • Andy
      Posted August 30, 2017 at 8:09 am | Permalink

      I have long felt that the UK didn’t belong in the EU and actually I felt Merkel was very unhelpful and difficult for Cameron – he should never have trusted her because she is not trustworthy. Hollande too, but I think that the Germans (no matterwhat they say in public) and the French did want us out. The problem is that for the French they aren’t big enough or powerful enough to resist Germany – they were with us – but all that has happened is Germany is now the effective ruler of Europe, which is what she has always wanted.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted August 30, 2017 at 9:17 am | Permalink

      But under David Cameron the British government was actively and publicly encouraging and assisting fuller EU integration, with George Osborne actually telling them to “get a grip” and rush on with further federalisation.

      From July 20th 2011:

      “Osborne urges eurozone to ‘get a grip’”

      “He recognised that his enthusiasm for greater eurozone integration turned British policy on its head, since it ends the government’s long-standing desire to frustrate the creation of a two-speed Europe. He said “the remorseless logic” of monetary union was greater fiscal union.”

      Which blatant reversal of long term British policy led me to compose a fictitious speech which William Pitt the Younger never gave, but which he might have given if he had similarly decided to cease opposition to Napoleon:

      “In his speech to the House of Commons, Mr Pitt said that it was massively in Britain’s interest that Napoleon Bonaparte should consolidate his present conquests into a strong and stable Empire.

      Asked whether there might not be a danger that Bonaparte would then seek to extend that Empire across the whole of the continent, and subsequently turn his attention to the invasion and subjugation of this realm, Mr Pitt replied that he had received assurances from the Emperor that he had no further territorial ambitions.

      When a member pointed out it was a matter of public record that Napoleon had already claimed legal title to the dominion of seven other countries in eastern Europe, as well as to Sweden, and that reports received just in the last week showed that he was planning to advance further into the Balkans, Mr Pitt reiterated his firm support for the Emperor’s efforts to bring stability to the continent.

      In his closing words, Mr Pitt strongly urged members to accept the remorseless logic that England could no longer save herself by her exertions, however great, and so should cease from any such futile attempts; but Napoleon could, as he trusted, save Europe.”

  18. Lindsay McDougall
    Posted August 30, 2017 at 2:57 am | Permalink

    It would be interesting to hear Mrs Merkel’s proposals for managing Greek and Italian debt.

    • Turboterrier.
      Posted August 30, 2017 at 6:52 am | Permalink

      @ Lindsay McDougall

      Don’t forget all the others that are struggling.

  19. Ian Wragg
    Posted August 30, 2017 at 5:38 am | Permalink

    Of course Merkel wants all these things that’s why they are so miffed about losing our contribution.
    It’s time these things were widely publicised.

  20. Michael James
    Posted August 30, 2017 at 5:46 am | Permalink

    Poor German taxpayers. They’ll have to pay for World War II for ever.

    • Ian Wragg
      Posted August 30, 2017 at 7:27 am | Permalink

      Germany got off very lightly after WW2 considering the disgraceful things they did.
      The German obsession with ruling and controlling is just waiting to rear its ugly head again in the guise of a German dominated USE.

      • Andy
        Posted August 30, 2017 at 8:11 am | Permalink

        It has already happened Ian. Germany has sought hegemony over all of Europe for 150 years and now they have it.

      • namreG
        Posted August 30, 2017 at 10:14 am | Permalink

        Ian Wragg
        I do not trust Germany. I imagine what we would do if we had been licked in two world wars, occupied by foreign powers. Sit back, get our revenge occupying sunny clime deckchairs seems rather inadequate. The Labour Party would of course say we should give them up deckchairs on the basis of “not for the few but for the many foreigners.”

      • fedupsoutherner
        Posted August 30, 2017 at 4:14 pm | Permalink

        quite right Ian. What they did to Greece was a disgrace and they still maintain that Greece owes them. I think they should call it quits.

  21. fedupsoutherner
    Posted August 30, 2017 at 6:57 am | Permalink

    How any Remainiac can fail to see what is happening in the EU is beyond me. I am glad we are getting out – or I sincerely hope we are anyway. What makes me think Corbyn and co would kind of like this idea of a joined up Europe? Perhaps many of our ministers like the idea of decisions being taken away from them and less responsibility? Who on earth wants to be under the thumb of the Germans?

  22. Embarristering
    Posted August 30, 2017 at 7:10 am | Permalink

    Yesterday, the media pulled another ex-British ambassador ( expert ) on to TV fighting the EU cause . Did we have diplomatic staff like this prior to the outbreaks of war in 1914 and 1939?In which country are they born, where are they educated as children, who trains them for our diplomatic service and importantly who are the heads of recruitment? Yes, and how come unlike even financial low tier operatives are they not contracted to remain silent after their “contract” ends? How can ex-diplomatic staff be doing good for our country aping the
    trade and political position of a foreign power such as the EU?

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted August 30, 2017 at 8:54 am | Permalink

      There is no doubt that purges are required, the two questions are a) how far they should go and b) what penalties should be imposed.

  23. Epikouros
    Posted August 30, 2017 at 8:05 am | Permalink

    The EU certainly has it’s uses if the desire is to control or shirk responsibility. Merkel obviously wants greater integration to build upon the dominance of Europe that Germany currently enjoys which has been the consequence of the founding of the single market and it’s metamorphosis into a nation gabbing EU. Macron wants to maintain the benefit of the protection of France that the EU affords against commercial and industrial competition that she is ill equipped to do on her own. Also like all the the other member states except Germany as you point out and the UK who have belatedly recognised the danger and wish to leave to feed on the financial teat of richer nations.

  24. Michael
    Posted August 30, 2017 at 8:35 am | Permalink

    A common language will be next on the list. Perhaps German?

  25. nigel seymour
    Posted August 30, 2017 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    Perhaps some of you ‘commentators’ should be moving on and directing your attention to the 2nd reading of the ECA on 7th Sep. Labour have now decided to play their Brexit card in looking to prevent us leaving the EU until the general election 2022… I would suggest that leavers don’t oppose a transition period of max 12 months after March 2019? 11th Sept will give us a clear picture when the division vote is made and may well indicate the prospect of a 2nd referendum!

  26. Christine
    Posted August 30, 2017 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

    You only have to read the WHITE PAPER ON THE FUTURE OF EUROPE – Reflections and scenarios for the EU27 by 2025 to see where the EU is going. Citizens are being asked to debate the five options on how Europe should evolve in the years to come. We all know that if they choose the wrong option they will have to choose again. It’s clear that any country not joining the Euro and Schengen will be side-lined and left to wither. Denmark, Ireland and Sweden take note.

  27. ChrisS
    Posted August 30, 2017 at 8:35 pm | Permalink

    The answer in 2017 to the question “How much more money is Merkel prepared to put in” is probably €0 !

    However, sooner rather than later she is going to reach crunch time when she has to balance pouring truly biblical sums of her taxpayers money into the failing economies of Club Med or see the Euro falter and break up.

    The answer to that question will probably be that she doesn’t have enough clout or enough cash to save it. The question for us is, will all this come about before or after we are properly out ?

    Let’s hope we have a short transition and it’s the latter.

  • About John Redwood

    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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