Debate with Lord Adonis

This evening I have been asked to debate Brexit and our future relationship with the EU with Lord Adonis.

On the eve of this event I just want to reassure him I do know exactly how he feels. I remembered the huge misgivings and unhappiness I felt when I learned the result of the 1975 referendum. I saw years of rows, economic damage, high budget contributions and loss of sovereignty ahead for the UK as we stayed in . I had been swayed to use one of my first votes as an adult to vote to leave by looking at the costs of membership, the likely loss of industry and the impact on fishing and farming.I was also extremely worried about the progressive loss of self government as the Common market went on a continuous power grab.

That referendum was not technically binding on Parliament but the government clearly told us we the people were making the decision. Fewer people voted to stay in in 1975 than voted to leave in 2016, but it was a good majority on a lower turnout. The question was very misleading in 1975 whereas it was very clear in 2016. The question in 1975 gave In an advantage by making it the Yes answer without a balanced question.

In 1975 we were asked if we wanted to stay in the European Community ( Common Market). The European Community as defined by the existing Treaty of Rome already had ambitions much larger than a Common market, and plans were in discussion for a single currency, the Snake as a precursor for monetary union, and wide ranging additional Treaties. The Stay in campaign played all this down. Talking to people afterwards who voted to stay, all thought they had just voted for a Common market, not for the wider Community which became a Union.

Despite all this I did not spend the ten tears after the vote demanding a re run with a more accurate question, or urging Parliament to ignore the wishes of UK voters. I accepted the verdict. In the mid 1990s, twenty tears later, when I started to want a second referendum, it was because the so called Common market of 1975 had so visibly been taken over by a much vaster project.

I hope Lord Adonis can see that the same is true today. The public have made up their minds and it is Parliament’ s job to implement the decision. At least this time there is no ambiguity. We voted to leave, and voted knowing that meant leaving the single market and customs union as part of leaving.That was one of the few things both official campaigns agreed about.

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175 Comments

  1. eeyore
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 5:32 am | Permalink

    Lord Adonis seems to be turning an ambition to thwart the will of the people into a profession. He should understand that it does not matter a jot whether the people are right or wrong, and even less that he disagrees with them. It’s sufficient that it is their will.

    JR is, I think, very obliging to rehearse his arguments yet again with an unelected and unaccountable individual whose right to have his opinions noticed is as equivocal as Lord Adonis’s.

    He gives no details of tonight’s debate, not the forum, nor the audience. If there is an audience, will a vote be taken before and after hearing the speakers?

    • Posted April 10, 2018 at 7:51 am | Permalink

      Let’s hope that Lord Adonis’s reasons for wishing our country had decided to ”remain” are as altruistic and unselfish as our host’s were for staying ”out”.

      etc 3d

      • Hope
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 4:27 pm | Permalink

        JR, Barier saying he will demand a non regression clause on trade for Environment, tax and food! In other words the UK. Not allowed to have a compititve edge. When will you and the other leavers force May to reject this awful deal? It is far worse than bad to date.

        Davis too embarrassed, or should be, with the position to date, will never say he messed up.

        • Lifelogic
          Posted April 10, 2018 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

          May & Hammond certainly seem very keen on ensuring that the UK is not competitive. Why?

          Expensive energy, endless regulations, building on EU workers rights, open door immigration (to people who are large net liabilities), sticking the the European model, the highest taxes for 40 years, the gender pay reporting drivel, the apprentice scheme, the work place pension, the out of control litigation, the endlessly increasing tax complexity, new gazumping proposals, the absurd planning restrictions, over the building control, poor roads, the dire NHS, loads of bog standard schools and useless degrees, high crime rates, police who have given up on most crimes and any deterrents …..

    • Hope
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 8:15 am | Permalink

      Sadly JR, I smell another capitulation over Irish border following Davis’s comments yesterday and another refusal by May to support Brexit! All remainer former failed politicos out and shouting over the border and why the U.K. Must stay in the customs union and single market, i.e. Remain in the EU without a voice. Discredited people like the Clintons, also bang at it. What right they have to talk about our country’s independent future is a disgrace. Ahearn saying how Ireland should play hard ball. I would like to think it would be met with the same mind set, with weak and wobbly remainer May who has capitulated on every issue and promise it is easy to see why they would take this view.

      Oust May for goodness sake.

      • Hope
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 8:31 am | Permalink

        JR, it must be said May has allowed and given credence to all these EU fanatics by allowing them to have a chat with Barnier and get all the publicity they from it! What is wrong with her? No one would allow the other side to speak to anyone other than the official negotiating team. She is a walking disaster.

        • a-tracy
          Posted April 10, 2018 at 4:03 pm | Permalink

          If she keeps appearing weak like this she is going to lose what little public support she has.

    • Peter
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 9:39 am | Permalink

      Adonis is a joke. He certainly will not do much to persuade people of the wisdom of Remain stance.

      That said, debating with him is a sideshow.

      Conservatives would do better to concentrate on preventing May from selling us down the river with Brexit in Name Only.

      Unfortunately that is not going to happen. Consequently Conservatives will suffer the backlash in the next election.

  2. duncan
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 5:34 am | Permalink

    Lord Adonis believes that politics and politicians should determine the future of the UK. John Redwood believes that the future of the UK should be determined by the peoples of the UK as expressed through a democratic mechanism, namely a referenda

    Adonis is anti-democratic. He resents the interference from the man in the street. He appears to believe the private citizen as neither the intelligence nor the knowledge to determine the future of the UK

    Adonis wants to see a circumvention of democracy.

    John should appeal and make reference to the collective wisdom of the British people. Expose Adonis for what he is. A petty little bureaucrat

    This grotesque Labour puppet exercised his vote during the EU referendum and thereby afforded the referendum legitimacy and belief that the result would be adhered to. Remain lost and Adonis weeps betrayal quite simply because he found himself on the wrong side of history

    It is the British people that are sovereign. People want their country back from the clutches of grasping politicians and EU bureaucrats

    We want direct democracy. We want to be able to influence directly those people who take decisions that affect our lives. If those decision makers are beyond our control we are made impotent

    This is about control of our moneys, our laws and our borders

    Bring the debate back to real people. It isn’t the sovereignty of the UK that is important but the sovereignty of the British people

    Simple language not political language is what’s required. Adonis is a political robot bu the fact that there’s talk about a second referendum is concerning.

    Leave won, Remain lost. Sour grapes all around

    Finally, someone tell this socialist PM that we want our country back or else Tories will desert our party

    • JoolsB
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 7:53 am | Permalink

      “We want direct democracy. We want to be able to influence directly those people who take decisions that affect our lives. If those decision makers are beyond our control we are made impotent”

      Duncan, as long as all the parties continue to ignore the English Question and the West Lothian Question for reasons of pure self interest, the above will never apply to those of us who reside in England, even after we leave the EU.

      • a-tracy
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 4:14 pm | Permalink

        What does it say about English people JoolsB that everyone lets this discrimination continue without putting up any serious complaint, if this was happening to the Scots they’d be marching on Glasgow with their pipers and drums?

        The main parties and commentators like Owen Jones keep informing us it is only a few seats that control the English elections as vast swaths of seats are too safe to mount challenges, well that’s what they thought in Scotland until the SNP got serious.

        However, our politicians from all parties are regularly and completely being mauled by the press and tv news, would you want to stand and put your families through that! MPs families are also pilloried just remember how people like Andrea Leadsom were treated when she mounted a leadership challenge, the whole thing is rotten. You can see Labour moderates and Tory Limpdems considering their options. Most old school, reasonable and educated Tories are coming up to retirement, most of the new crew are a waste of space, seriously who can you name that stands out as an honourable person other than little-known men or women of principles like Hollobone but he keeps his head down.

        We’ve got Hilary Clinton poking her nose into Ireland business – just what! May get a grip tell us what the hell you are doing and show some backbone.

    • Posted April 10, 2018 at 8:13 am | Permalink

      Hi Duncan, I agree 100% with your comments above. The only addition I would add is to criticise the amount of media coverage Tony Blair is given. When considering his track record for misleading everyone and looking at his family’s personal agenda etc ed

      • Miss Brandreth-Jones
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 7:29 pm | Permalink

        Tony Blair was out of his depth in the end without the support of many more. He was the fall guy. He speaks of intervention in Syria now . This is an important topic and should be highlighted. I still do support him, but not his followers who took things their way as far as privatisation was concerned and bludgeoned their way to keep power..

        I read comments on this site and listen to many views and world reactions and am convinced that the majority do not have the intelligence to understand what abuse , offence and aggression is . If they claim they do have the IQ then why do they continue to grossly offend people? There is far more to intelligence than spewing out so called facts and insulting people.

    • Peter Parsons
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 10:23 am | Permalink

      If you really want democracy in the UK, you will need reform of both Houses of Parliament. Neither the unelected House of Lords nor the unrepresentitive FPTP House of Commons are an accurate reflection of the expressed wishes of the British people, yet you won’t get reform of either under a Conservative government.

      • acorn
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

        Much agreed Peter. This Brexit saga has demonstrated the sclerosis in a two centuries out of date, constitutional monarchy, that simply perpetuates an endogenous, self serving, Westminster privy cartel.

        Not that kids in UK schools will ever be taught from a written constitution for this nation; why, because there isn’t one.

        If someone could tell me how many of the United Nations 193 (+2) Sovereign States, could make a major change to their constitutions, i.e. BREXIT; on less than a super majority vote of circa 2 to 1; please let me know.

        • acorn
          Posted April 10, 2018 at 5:57 pm | Permalink

          Continental number crunchers are telling me that leaving one of either the Customs Union (CU) or, the Single Market (SM), does not get rid of the Northern Ireland EU Frontier (border).

          Each has its own EU Frontier. To totally get rid of a physical border you have to have a substitute for BOTH the CU and the SM.

      • libertarian
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

        Peter P

        Totally agree , but you won’t get reform from Labour or the Lib Dems either .

      • getahead
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:45 pm | Permalink

        Or any other government. But one step at a time Peter. Let’s first get rid of May and then get cleanly out of the EU.

      • hefner
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 9:58 pm | Permalink

        Seconded.

  3. Tasman
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 5:50 am | Permalink

    “We voted to leave, and voted knowing that meant leaving the single market and customs union as part of leaving.”

    Utterly false. The single market was not on the ballot paper, nor was the customs union. It is perfectly possible to be in the single market and yet not be in the EU – see Norway. It is perfectly possible to be in a customs union and yet not be in the EU – see Turkey. During the referendum Daniel Hannan told us that absolutely nobody was questioning our place in the single market. Owen Paterson said only a madman would want to leave the single market. Nigel Farage often held up Switzerland and Norway as models for our future.

    I do not think your debate will go well if you are untruthful.

    Reply The remain campaign told us all leaving the EU meant leaving the single market and customs union. I dont think they lied about that!

    • John Soper
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:46 am | Permalink

      Reply to reply – Remain lost!!

      • Hope
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 8:21 am | Permalink

        Nothing false at all. Nor is it untruthful. Go and read Cameron’s remarks to parliament before the vote. He made it clear the UK would be leaving with no second chances, I suspect he said it as a threat to worry the public, the public trout good and voted leave.

        Now apologise to JR for false comments.

      • Bob
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 9:02 am | Permalink

        Remain lost!! They certainly did, despite the huge and unfair propaganda advantage enlisting the support of the British govt, the broadcast media and press, merchant banks, the entertainment industry, educational establishment and interference from foreign political leaders such as Barack Obama.

        • Robert Christopher
          Posted April 10, 2018 at 10:00 pm | Permalink

          Despite?

          More like because of all that you list? 🙂

    • Nig l
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 7:07 am | Permalink

      Please will you stop keep repeating this insulting tosh. Of course the single market was on the ballot paper by implication. Freedom of movement was/is one of the four freedoms, without acceptance of that membership of the single market falls.

      I knew what I was voting for, obviously the precise shape was unknown, however as the fifth/sixth largest economy in the world, a massive imbalance in trade with the EU, a permanent seat at the UN, GCHQ and our relationship with the US etc I was confident that the unknown future was better than the known with the EU and knowing it’s federalist ambition which eventually would have included mandatory membership of the Euro.

      Oh and one more thing, the not inconsiderable amount we contribute to their budget. Traveling round Europe as I do regularly, killing another lie, namely I voted leave because I was anti European, I was constantly seeing roads in Romania or buildings in Italy etc being renovated with funds from one EU budget or another and was and still am of the view that that 13/15 billion should be spent in the U.K.

      Our overseas aid budget is one of the most generous in the world, I see no reason to double it via the EU.

      • Andy
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 7:46 am | Permalink

        Strange – I see the same sorts of roads and buildings being renovated with EU funds in Cornwall and Wales. After 2020 that money will mostly go – and Westminster won’t replace it.

        And, no, there will not be more money to go around. What we save in budget contributions we more than lose in additional value. We just all get poorer.

        • Narrow Shoulders
          Posted April 10, 2018 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

          Those funds paying for roads in Cornwall come from our net contribution Andy.

          If you can not see the difference you are no longer worthy of debate being too blinkered.

          • jerry
            Posted April 10, 2018 at 5:41 pm | Permalink

            @NS et al; Andy didn’t say otherwise, but if you can’t see that what the EU choose to spend money on in the UK might be very different from a govt obsessed with tax and spending cuts then it is you and who is no longer worthy of debate, being far too blinkered.

          • Narrow Shoulders
            Posted April 12, 2018 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

            The government is actually more obsessed with being re-elected.

            That will safeguard much of the spending which was previously recycled by the EU.

            But don’t let get in the way of your need to be contrary Jerry.

          • jerry
            Posted April 13, 2018 at 6:15 am | Permalink

            @NS; “The government is actually more obsessed with being re-elected.”

            Indeed but if they believe that the majority want tax cuts after Brexit (perhaps wrongly, we will only know for sure whenever the next GE comes) what are they going to do, carry on funding what our EU contributions used to fund or cut taxes?…

        • sm
          Posted April 10, 2018 at 2:29 pm | Permalink

          Since the UK is one of the few net contributors to the EU, Andy, the money that has funded work in Cornwall and Wales has been taken from the British taxpayer, put on the roundabout in Brussels, and once various deductions have been made from it, sent back to the UK to spend on its infrastructure….no, still can’t see the sense in that.

        • Denis Cooper
          Posted April 10, 2018 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

          As you know perfectly well, Andy, those “EU funds” are just part of our own money returned from Brussels with strings attached.

      • jerry
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 9:18 am | Permalink

        @Nig 1; Will you (and others) stop repeating revisionary falsehoods, there was 29 different Leave manifestos FACT, ranging from the so called “Norway option” to leaving on WTO terms FACT!

        To try and make out that all votes to leave were for the same endgame is wrong, you might well have know what you voted for but that might not have been the same “Leave” as the previous or next person who case their pro Brexit ballot in the same box…

        As I’ve asked before, had Remain won would people such as yourself now be accepting of a hard line europhile Remain, scrapping our opt-outs, fully joining the Schengen Agreement, adopting the Euro etc? No you would be arguing the case, shouting it from the roof tops no-doubt, that we merely chose to keep the status quo, perhaps demanding a second referenda if the govt looked likely to integrate further, even though there were Remain manifestos that did campaign for a much deeper commitment to the EU.

        Reply No, as the referendum Act would require a referendum before joining Euro etc

        • jerry
          Posted April 10, 2018 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

          @JR Reply; Always assuming that post a Remain win jubilant europhiles across the house did not scrap the Referendum Act…

          After all, wasn’t the Referendum Act its self possible only because no current or future govt can be locked into a decision made by a previous govt. thus our decisions made in 1975 is reversible, just as trade union laws of the 1960s and ’70s were in the 1980s.

        • NickC
          Posted April 10, 2018 at 4:03 pm | Permalink

          Jerry, The Referendum offered the choice between remaining in the EU under the terms negotiated by David Cameron, or leaving the EU altogether. That’s what is was – FACT. Nuances were NOT offered – FACT. Inventing alternatives after the vote is at best disingenuous and at worst outright undemocratic falsehood.

          • jerry
            Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

            @NickC; “Inventing alternatives after the vote is at best disingenuous and at worst outright undemocratic falsehood.”

            Talk about the filthy pot trying to call the kettle dusty!

            There were 29 different Brexit campaign groups with their own Brexit manifestos, heck some options were even debated on this very site, one such option was called Flexcit, and of course there was the ideas put forward by UKIP, quite apart from Vote leave, just to name three very different manifestos and thus routes to ‘Brexit’.

            The referenda asked only IF the UK should leave, it did not ask either How nor When the UK should leave, both were left to the govt of the day, or indeed a later govt.

          • NickC
            Posted April 11, 2018 at 11:55 pm | Permalink

            The “How” and the “When” were covered by the Prime Minister David Cameron in Parliament when he said: “If the British people vote to leave, there is only one way to bring that about, namely to trigger article 50 of the treaties and begin the process of exit, and the British people would rightly expect that to start straight away.”

            The number of campaigns is irrelevant and a red herring: they weren’t being elected; they weren’t there to form a government. They were just campaigns disseminating opinions and information like a newspaper or the BBC. We didn’t vote on their manifestos, we voted on the ballot paper question only. And that was to Leave the EU as a whole, or to Remain in the EU under the conditions negotiated by David Cameron. Only. There was no option to remain in parts of the EU to be arbitrarily selected after a Leave vote by the likes of you.

            Stop repeating revisionary falsehoods.

          • jerry
            Posted April 13, 2018 at 4:03 pm | Permalink

            @NickC’; “Stop repeating revisionary falsehoods.”

            Hypocrisy in stilts!

            How many time, there were 29 different Leave groups, all campaigning for different styles of Brexit,

            The number of campaigns is irrelevant and a red herring:”

            Only for the basic question, Leave or Remain, nothing else could have been a binary choice, not with with 29 Leave and 19 Remain groups all legally campaigning for their versions of How and When options, thus the detail was left to the govt of the day. Nor was any date mentioned, so even by your logic, because Cameron (or anyone else) didn’t specify a date for Brexit it can delayed until year 2099 if a PM/Govt so wish!

            What is more, because no future govt can be bound by any previous govt, otherwise the union laws of the 1980s could not have replaced those of the 1960s and ’70s, even the basic Leave decision could have been set-aside had a europhile party or coalition been elected in 2017, and could still be should the Govt fall…

            Call yourself a democrat NickC, you don’t have a first clue what the word means, you and you fellow hard right Brexiteers are the only ones repeating revisionary falsehoods in your attempt to claim a mandate you do not own. The UK leaving the EU, just perhaps not How nor When you wish, get over it.

        • Edward2
          Posted April 10, 2018 at 5:04 pm | Permalink

          Jerry
          You have the cheek to often describe other people’s posts as “rants” and now you post this !
          Hilarious

        • libertarian
          Posted April 11, 2018 at 8:43 am | Permalink

          Jerry

          There were NO manifestos, from either side, none, zero. For the simple reason neither side was a party bidding to be elected to implement a manifesto of any sort. Its simple, even for you Jerry. It was a binary referendum . We voted to leave, having taken that decision we NOW go on to look at what kind of relationship, if any, we want with the REU , what kind of relationship they want with us and how we go about building the future.

          Just printing the word FACT in big letters doesn’t make something a fact….

          • jerry
            Posted April 11, 2018 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

            @libertarian; Stop talking utter rot Walter, or has the OED once again got it all wrong…

            Manifesto
            A public declaration of policy and aims, especially one issued before an election by a political party or candidate.

            https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/manifesto

            Especially, but not only issued by a political party in other words, the word merely mean “to make public”.

          • Edward2
            Posted April 11, 2018 at 7:15 pm | Permalink

            It wasn’t an election Jerry.

          • jerry
            Posted April 12, 2018 at 6:43 am | Permalink

            @Edward2; Once again you have shown that you do not actually bother to read my comment. 🙁

          • Edward2
            Posted April 12, 2018 at 9:16 am | Permalink

            So your new definition of a manifesto is now anything made public by anyone.
            Very odd.

          • jerry
            Posted April 12, 2018 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

            @Edward2; What ever. Once again all your comment has do is show that you do not actually read what I post…

            No, not my definition Edward, that of the OED, I even offered up a URL! 🙄

    • Edward2
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 7:08 am | Permalink

      Utterly false Tasman
      The Prime Minister and the Chancellor both said leaving the EU meant leaving the single market and the customs union.
      Did you not read the Leaflet they sent you?

      • Alison
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 8:46 am | Permalink

        Tasman – PS to Edward2 re government leaflet: At least one good thing came out of the government spending £9m of taxpayers’ money on presenting “Remain” in that leaflet, it did say leaving meant leaving the Single Market and Customs Union. And I pray we do.

      • Tasman
        Posted April 11, 2018 at 6:16 am | Permalink

        Cameron lost, so what he said is totally irrelevant. Leave won. Almost every Leaver said that leaving the single market was NOT the plan – Farage, Gove, Boris, Paterson, Hannan etc

        • Edward2
          Posted April 11, 2018 at 3:41 pm | Permalink

          He was Prime Minister at the time of the referendum campaign so certainly not “totally irrelevant”
          I noticed no response on my point about the official leaflet sent to every home Tasman.

    • zorro
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 7:49 am | Permalink

      Your mates Cameron and Osborne said it to!!

      zorro

    • Anonymous
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 8:02 am | Permalink

      Where were you during the referendum, Tasman ?

      I recall chilling warnings from many sources that Leave would mean leaving the single market and that there would be consequences.

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 8:50 am | Permalink

      Tasman. You obviously weren’t paying attention.

    • Roy Grainger
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 9:13 am | Permalink

      Once again a Remainiac tells us that they know why Leave voters voted Leave. OK – try this – Remain voters voted Remain because they believed Treasury predictions of an immediate recession and 500,000 job losses in the year following a Leave win.

    • NickC
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 9:57 am | Permalink

      Tasman, Utterly false. It would have been absurd and impractical to include details of every part, and every competence, of the EU on the ballot paper. So none of the various parts of the EU were separated out – we were voting on whether to remain or leave the EU as a whole.

      So both the EU’s single market, and the EU’s customs union were covered by the term “European Union” written on the ballot paper. As was the EU’s CFP, CAP, etc, etc. There was no option on the ballot paper to remain in selected parts of the EU.

    • libertarian
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

      Tasman

      Were you not in the country during the debate? Do you really not understand the word leave. This Remain chestnut is just so boring as it makes remainers appear thick

    • getahead
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

      Leading Remainers made it clear that voting Leave would likely entail pulling Britain out of the single market.
      David Cameron said: ‘What the British public will be voting for is to leave the EU and leave the single market.’
      George Osborne echoed him: ‘We would be out of the single market.’
      There you go: the two then most powerful men in Britain saying Leave would mean leaving the single market. So let’s get on with it Theresa May.

  4. Lifelogic
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:09 am | Permalink

    Good luck. I do not think I have heard Lord Adonis ever say anything sensible at all (so needless to say he is endlessly on the TV (rather like Soubry, Ken Clark, Alibhai-Brown and Polly Toynbee types). It seems he at least read History and not PPE so this is perhaps rather surprising. I find people usually extract some sense from reading history, if they can thing at all that is. Surely he should change his name to something more suitable.

    We had already been taken in to the “Common Market” by the dire Ted Heath before 75 (and without asking for authority from the people) and giving out fishing away in the process. So in 1975 they were voting for the status quo, with a biased question and with blatant lies from ministers assuring them of no loss of sovereignty (just a common market voters). I was too young to vote but was, even then, convinced we should leave. Mainly by the far more rational arguments coming from Powell, T Benn, P Shore, R Varley & Barbara Castle at the time. Interestingly the SNP and Plaid Cymru were also sensibly for leaving at that time.

    Ted Heath had hugely misguided interventionist economic policies, prices and income controls and very high taxation levels too. So needless to say he did massive damage to nearly everything he touched. Politically rather similar to May and Hammond now – he did not last long as PM but unfortunately remained a dire, sulking, wet, backbench MP for years. The sort of Tory who gives the Tory party dire, lefty, pro EU, leaders like John Major.

  5. zorro
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:14 am | Permalink

    I doubt it, they would probably rather provoke a world war…. no, really

    zorro

  6. Fedupsoutherner
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:19 am | Permalink

    Good luck with that then John. You are quite right when you say that we were never made fully aware of what staying in the so called common market was really all about. I am sure we still are not fully aware of what staying in will mean for our long term future. We are only allowed to know what they want us to know. We do not need a second referendum. We need some firm leadership and a determination to fully implement leave. We are fed up with the lies and deceit which we have come to expect from all parties now. Let’s have some plain talking, some clear answers to questions and just get on with it.

    • Bob
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 9:23 am | Permalink

      “we were never made fully aware of what staying in the so called common market was really all about. I am sure we still are not fully aware of what staying in will mean”

      Exactly, staying in would obviously lead to further loss of sovereignty, increasing costs, demographic changes and degradation of our national and civil defence.

      These are things that Remoaners inexplicably refuses to contemplate.

  7. Mark B
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:28 am | Permalink

    Good morning.

    Please ask the Noble Lord the question I asked Remainers here on this site, for which I never received a satisfactory reply.

    Name one thing that the EU can do for the UK that a non-EU Sovereign Nation cannot do for itself ?

    • Helena
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:48 am | Permalink

      Prevent the need for a hard border in Ireland

      • Adam
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 7:40 am | Permalink

        The EU should prevent itself. The UK has no need for it.

      • Know-Dice
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 8:12 am | Permalink

        The EU’s solution –

        Smart Border 2.0
        Avoiding a hard border on the island of
        Ireland for Customs control and the free
        movement of persons

        http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2017/596828/IPOL_STU(2017)596828_EN.pdf

      • Rob Drummond
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 8:21 am | Permalink

        This is the made up problem that at last Mr Gardener has also confirmed today.

        I trust The Irish people a hec of a lot more than their own and the EU politicians!

      • Hope
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 8:25 am | Permalink

        No need to do anything. If the EU and Ireland want a border that is a matter for them. Although I note May left the door open for the remainers on this point in her last capitulation Mansion House speech. She is doing her best to provide ammunition for remaining in at every opportunity at the moment. I am still unclear why JR and other have not brought her down.

      • forthurst
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 8:39 am | Permalink

        Rubbish. Jon Thompson, Chief Executive and Permanent Secretary of HMRC, affirmed that there wouldn’t be any requirement for physical infrastructure between Ireland and Northern Ireland “whatever happens” when giving evidence to the Exiting the European Union Select Committee last November.

        Lord Trimble has made it clear that it is up to the EU whether it wants to stir up trouble in Ireland; there is no requirement for anyone else to.

        People who are using the Irish border issue to promote their loyalty to the undemocratic EU superstate need to understand they are playing a dangerous and irresponsible game with people’s lives. They need to shut up.

      • Mark B
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 8:48 am | Permalink

        You clearly have misunderstood the question.

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 9:15 am | Permalink

        It is agreed by all sides that there is no need for a hard border now, as has been the case for the past twenty-five years, so precisely why should there be a new need for a hard border in the future?

        I saw the Irish ambassador to the UK being asked about this by Andrew Marr on Sunday, and he waffled on to avoid answering the question.

        It is not the UK but the EU which is implicitly threatening to unnecessarily erect a hard border, even while it is hypocritically saying that there should be no hard border:

        http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/04/09/how-green-is-bus-travel/#comment-929471

        • Hope
          Posted April 10, 2018 at 4:35 pm | Permalink

          Agree, but said it was not for them alone and she would walk away as if it was their problem, words to that effect. She allowed the argument to remain so she could capitulate for regulatory alignment for the whole of the U.K. In other words staying in both by another name. Like staying in the EU by another name. May really is a ghastly woman completely out of her ability. Another example of female tokenism not merit.

          I also note the burden she has placed on businesses to make returns about pay, none of the govt business.

      • Roy Grainger
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 9:15 am | Permalink

        It is the EU (not a sovereign nation) threatening to build a hard border, not UK.

      • NickC
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 10:12 am | Permalink

        Helena, The UK does not need a hard border. Eire does not need a hard border. There wasn’t a hard border before we joined the EEC. So tell me again who needs a hard border?

      • Edward2
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 10:14 am | Permalink

        The UK have said there will not be a hard border.
        But if your beloved EU decide to force a hard border on the Republic side that is for them to decide.

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 11:53 am | Permalink

        http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43706473

        “Good Friday Agreement played up, suggests Labour’s Barry Gardiner”

        “A Labour front bencher has suggested the Irish government and Sinn Fein have “played up” concerns that Brexit could harm the Good Friday Agreement.

        Shadow international trade secretary Barry Gardiner said concerns about the Irish border issue was in the Irish government’s “economic interest”.”

        Well, I’d suggest that it’s not just the Irish government and Sinn Fein, and it’s not just the assorted Remoaners in the UK, it’s also the EU.

        In the special, some would say “unique”, case of the land border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic free movement of persons is not and is very unlikely to become an issue, and likewise the free movement of services and capital is not an issue which would be likely to ever require checks at the border, there is no question of “taking back control” from the EU in that regard, because the absence of control predates the EEC/EC/EU and the UK and Irish accession thereto; such as it is the issue is the passage of goods in each direction, which for movement to the south amounts to about £2.4 billion a year, a mere 0.1% of UK GDP, and at the moment without any checks to intercept what might be called “illicit” goods in various respects at the border and prevent their entry into the Republic.

        So why should this become an issue? Is it because the Irish government and the EU believe that once freed from the legal constraints of the EU Single Market and the EU’s supreme Court of Justice the wicked UK would start to deliberately export illicit goods, what the EU sees as rubbish, things like the awful American “chlorinated chicken” and “hormone treated beef”?

        Tell you what, let’s ask the UK Parliament to pass a new law to prevent unscrupulous people exporting such “illicit” goods from the UK to the Irish Republic even after we have left the EU and its Single Market.

      • jerry
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 1:08 pm | Permalink

        @Helena; But there wasn’t a hard border between north and south before both the UK and Eire join the EEC on 1st Jan 1973, what is more there has been different tax rules/rates north and south both before and after the above date, so why all of a sudden does there need to be a hard board – something that didn’t even really exist even during the hight of the “Troubles”.

        • Tasman
          Posted April 11, 2018 at 6:22 am | Permalink

          There needs to be hard border now, where there was not before, because the UK has chosen to leave the EU and the single market and the customs union.

          Mr Redwood often tells you that trading under WTO rules is fine. Well, here are WTO rules for you – if you are outside a customs union, you have to put in place a hard border (to collect tariffs, to check safety standards, to check origin etc). Same all over the world. No countries have border-free trade anywhere in the world if they aren’t in a custioms union together. Simple and basic requirement of the WTO.

          So please face up to reality. Before Brexit, no hard border. After Brexit, hard border. Why? Because of Brexit

          • Andy
            Posted April 11, 2018 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

            How the UK operates its border controls is a matter for the UK Parliament to decide. How the EU operate its border controls are a matter for the relevant Sovereign State (Republic of Ireland) and the EU Commission. It is up to the Irish and the EU what sort of border they will operate.

          • jerry
            Posted April 11, 2018 at 5:07 pm | Permalink

            @Tasman; What did you not understand about the fact that there has never been a hard boarder, often with differing tax rates north and south, and the EEC knew this back in 1972 and some of those differing tax rates still exist today…

            There is thus no reason for a heard boarder , if there is a hard boarder post Brexit, something that has not existed in something like 95 years, it will be the fault of the EU and europhiles like you who keep repeating a lie.

            As for WTO rules, that doesn’t need to be a hard boarder, or do you really think that there are (still) customs warehouses on boarders all over the world were lorries and containers are unloaded and the contents checks for safety and duties paid etc? Go check out the TIR Convention for goodness sake!

          • Edward2
            Posted April 12, 2018 at 9:21 am | Permalink

            Nonsense.
            We will soon be a free independent country.
            If we keep the border as it is today that is up to us.
            If the EU wants to build a wall with barbed wire and barriers let them get on with it.

          • Denis Cooper
            Posted April 12, 2018 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

            Go on then, give us chapter and verse of those WTO rules …

    • Mark B
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

      Yet again, the Remainers fail to answer the question. It is such a simple question. Not hard to understand if you are of average intelligence or above.

      What can the EU do for any country that was not part of the EU, that it cannot do for itself ?

  8. David Terron
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:31 am | Permalink

    Adonis is becoming ‘the shoutier, crazy end of twitter’ according to a SKY interviewer the other day. I do hope you can ignore him as he starts ranting and not letting you speak as seems to be the case with most Remainers! he screeches about democracy yet fails miserably to recognise it when it turns out to be the opposite of what he, the unelected and misguided, actually wants the people to do, ie do what he says!

    • Leslie Singleton
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 9:34 am | Permalink

      Dear David–Adonis recently said that we should be in the EU because it is part of our manifest destiny. He missed out an IMHO and was of course talking nonsense: staying In is one thing; manifest destiny is another. How does he get the publicity for such twaddle? Remainiacs must be getting desperate if they are reduced to parading such as him.

  9. duncan
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:38 am | Permalink

    And remember that Labour’s so called core vote voted en masse to leave the EU. Adonis is essentially sticking two fingers up to the choice made and opinions expressed by his own party’s voters

    Democracy has spoken. Time to dilute the power of the political class not increase it and make it more distant which is what the EU now represents

    • Andy
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 7:48 am | Permalink

      Two thirds of Labour voters backed Remain. As did around a third of Conservatives.

      • a-tracy
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 4:19 pm | Permalink

        What figures are you using for this Andy? How can you possibly know what happened in a secret ballot? Polls are repeatedly incorrect.

      • libertarian
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

        And the rest of us voted leave and there were more of us than them

    • NickC
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 10:14 am | Permalink

      The people at the top of Labour have become complacent about their hitherto successful hoodwinking of their core voters. Unfortunately those around Mrs May do the same to Tory voters.

    • jerry
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 1:16 pm | Permalink

      @duncan; “Democracy has spoken. Time to dilute the power of the political class not increase it”

      I bet you would like that, after all the that is the problem for the hard right, democracy did speak in 2017 and chose quite a side step (if not leap) to the left. Typical hard right, just like the hard left, democracy only it suits…

      • NickC
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 4:21 pm | Permalink

        Jerry, As you well know the 2016 Referendum authorised by Parliament asked a straightforward binary question, completely unlike a general election where the parties are coalitions and the issues more nuanced. No Leave voter I know, or know of, doubted Labour’s (or the Tories’) legitimacy when they won their elections. Likewise the legitimacy of the Leave vote should not be doubted, nor the Leave result undermined.

        • jerry
          Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:30 pm | Permalink

          @NickC: Yes, it “asked a straightforward binary question”, totally agree, Leave or Remain, and this is why yours and others undemocratic revisionary nonsense fails.

          Such a ‘simple’ binary question, by definition, could not have asked How -never mind When, the UK should leave [1], to do so would have meant having as many vote boxes [x] on the ballot-paper as campaign groups allowed under the applicable electoral law, 29 in this case of Leave, with 19 for Remain, far from being the “straightforward binary question” you suggest! If only one group should have been campaigning, as your idea suggests, then the referenda was surely illegal and needs to be re-run…

          [1] no more than a Remain vote could decide the future of our opt-outs, indeed our host points out that changes to at least one opt-out (adopting the Euro), would require another referenda under the current law

  10. Lifelogic
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:42 am | Permalink

    Lord Adonis actually said:- “Brexit and Farage are largely the creation of the BBC”. What planet is this man on?

    The BBC have been appallingly pro remain throughout and still are. Just listen to their “comedy” programmes for real bias.

    A typical Question Time or Any Questions panel is 4 plus (the chair) to one for remain (sometimes none). When the public are actually pro leave probably by about 60/40 now. When this one Brexit person says anything he is usually shouted down by all the other 4 plus the chair or accused of racism. Despite this and the support of all the major parties and the lies from government and in their leaflet Brexit won very clearly. Just get over it Adonis and move on.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:53 am | Permalink

      Why one earth did Osborne and Hammond have Lord Adonis as Chair of the National Infrastructure Commission? He is totally unsuitable for such a position, almost as bad as May’s idiotic choice of Mathew Taylor to do the damaging employment review.

      Where are the real conservatives in this essentially socialist party?

      • Hope
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 8:26 am | Permalink

        Same as Cameron having former Labour ministers in various roles when there was an abundance of Tories.

  11. Nig l
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:44 am | Permalink

    Lord Adonis career always relied on entitlement and preferment, not being elected. An academic who has never had a ‘real’ job. Please ask him on what grounds he thinks his view is more important than mine.

    • Banania
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 10:52 am | Permalink

      I think “academic” is a rather kind word for Lord Adonis.

    • Andy
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

      Come, come. He was elected once, to Oxford City Council for the Lib/SDP and gained 1200+ votes. However he didn’t stand for reelection and has never stood again. He stood once before but lost. Quite how 1200+ votes 30 years ago gives him a right to trump 17+ million I’m at a loss to explain.

  12. Narrow Shoulders
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:47 am | Permalink

    Please try to establish from Lord Adonis how undermining the government and constantly setting out alternative visions which include not leaving strengthens our negotiating position.

    Would those wishing to keep the constrictive ties to the EU not be better served by unequivocally backing the government in public while conducting robust debate in private.
    I am sure that is what the EU is doing. By their continual whining campaigners like Lord Adonis make no deal ever more likely.

  13. Miss Brandreth-Jones
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:48 am | Permalink

    The second and third time around similarities can be seen between many things and the way we ourselves handled the situation or a decision. When put in these mirror like situations though, a new mix of perceptions is added to the scenario with those who were not brought up with British ideals or a particular background and furthermore our own slant adjusts as we reflect.Experience adds new dimensions,nevertheless essentially there are directions (when we see humanity behaving in certain ways ) we try to avoid, almost because of a gut instinct as the ‘ power’ instinct is viewed and rationalised.

  14. oldtimer
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:56 am | Permalink

    The electorate was lied to before the 1975 referendum. Even a recent BBC documentary on the original campaign, and on Heath’s parliamentary machinations before then to get approval to join the Common Market made that clear. Today we see attempts to manipulate the narrative to discredit the Brexit vote. These are in part funded by foreign cash and foreign interests etc ed I would not be in the least surprised – given the net £10 bn at stake – if the EU was to be discovered supporting the Remainers rearguard campaign.

    • GT
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 7:41 am | Permalink

      The EU has paid £ millions to the BBC. They never declare this as a potential conflict of interest for any programme on the EU project.

  15. duncan
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 7:00 am | Permalink

    Adonis and his pro-EU backers want to see a second referenda and therefore they will attempt to de-legitimise the first referendum held in 2015 by arguing the victory was secured by subterfuge and lies.

    There is no depths to which these people will not stoop to gain a political victory. They must not succeed. If they do, democracy is dead

    • Helena
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 7:32 am | Permalink

      If there is a second referendum, then the people will decide! How can that possibly be against democracy?

      • NickC
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

        Helena, The “first” hasn’t even been implemented yet! Why should your second referendum be legitimate when, according to you, the first isn’t?

      • Hope
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 4:39 pm | Permalink

        Work it out Helena! You do. To keep asking until you get the answer you want through wearing down the opposition. It would be deemed oppressive if the stance was made during an interview!

      • libertarian
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

        Helena

        The people already decided. You lost . That is democracy

    • GT
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 7:42 am | Permalink

      Give him a second referendum on negotiated agreement versus leave with WTO rules. But no vote in Parliament.

      • NickC
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

        GT, I’d go for that. And campaign to Leave with the WTO deal.

      • libertarian
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:32 pm | Permalink

        If there was to be a second referendum I trust that all the remainers will be happy to apply what they said should have happened in the first one i.e.

        That the question of joining the EU should be based on a turnout of greater than 80% and a vote of more than 75% in favour of joining

  16. Helen Taylor
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 7:01 am | Permalink

    John, it is a pity that this debate could not be televised not everyone can get to these events but I am sure there would be great interest in watching it. I think that is a major problem with Brexit that there is not enough positive programs on the TV which is a major platform for people. Not everyone is on social media, all we seem to hear on the TV is negativity. It is time for a huge back Britain campaign to be launched. Although it begins to feel like Brexit will never happen because some stupid leader is going to press the big red button and blow the world into kingdom come. Please tell Mrs May she has enough on her plate without joining Trump in warmongering.

    • rose
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 3:15 pm | Permalink

      It is our new little Napoleon, not Trump, who is getting up the war coalition. All the time Mrs May has been publicly insulting Trump, Macron has been privately persuading him. How we do need a statesman in number ten.

  17. sm
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 7:07 am | Permalink

    Jean Monnet:

    “Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate WITHOUT THEIR PEOPLE UNDERSTANDING IT. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each DISGUISED AS HAVING ECONOMIC PURPOSES, but which will eventually, and irreversibly, lead to federalism.” (my caps)

    Where is this debate taking place ? I hope it will be available via the internet, wish I could be in the audience!

    • jerry
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 7:53 am | Permalink

      @sm; Care to cite your quotation? No, thought not….

      Why are you still so interested in UK politics you do not live in the UK, not even the EU, how about you kindly stop trying to influence OUR lives, you have made your choice, now let us make our own!

      • sm
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

        The quotation is cited in several places as having been written by Monnet to a friend in April 1952.

        I am deeply flattered by your assumption that I am in a position to influence YOUR life. I remain both a British citizen and a British taxpayer, and would not dream of attempting to silence you, despite your frequent rudeness; I intend to continue to express my views on UK politics when and where I wish.

        • jerry
          Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:53 pm | Permalink

          @sm; So I take it that you can not actually cite a reliable and peer reviewed reference to the words you placed in quotations…

          Saying something to a friend in a letter could have been simply sounding out option, playing devils advocate of sorts, in its self it doesn’t prove anything. After all there are several publications that have asserted -true or not- that a now senior Secretary of State in the UK govt wrote two different speeches, one (undelivered) that called for a Remain Vote and another that called for a Leave vote, delivering the latter speech he placed his support for Brexit and Vote Leave on the record.

          “I remain both a British citizen and a British taxpayer,”

          Many non UK owned business also pay tax in the UK too, many of them (likely to be) highly europhile, by your logic perhaps they should be allowed to directly campaign for the UK to remain in the EU.

          There are also many EU based UK ex-pats, who (might well also) still pay UK tax, these people were prevented from voting in the Brexit referenda.

          “I intend to continue to express my views on UK politics when and where I wish.”

          You mean a bit like how the Eurocrats, you so detest, meddle in UK domestic politics?…

      • anon
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 9:07 pm | Permalink

        We have 27 EU countries and Brussels, plus all other major globalists IMF, Obama, etc “interfering” in the UK debate.
        We also allowed a number of non uk -nationals to vote.

        You keep going on about an individuals comment.
        Many overseas citizens of the UK were not allowed a vote.

        Whereas many resident non- citizens voted, which i thought was wrong. It gave favour to the remain vote i felt.

        Only citizens or resident citizens should be allowed to vote in such referendums. Dual nationals also should be barred.

        • jerry
          Posted April 11, 2018 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

          @anon; “Dual nationals also should be barred.”

          Why penalise accidents of birth (literally and figuratively), indeed would that not have barred a prominent Brexiteer from voting, if not campaigning and perhaps even standing for Parliament!

          If someone has legally made the UK their primary residence, and thus live the majority of their time in the UK, in other words they have to live with the laws, public services and day-to-day taxes etc, then they should have the right to vote and campaign.

    • Hope
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 8:29 am | Permalink

      FCO paper 301/1048, promote this by the libLabCon to deceive the public.

  18. jerry
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 7:47 am | Permalink

    “The question was very misleading in 1975 whereas it was very clear in 2016.”

    Nonsense, the 2016 question was just as misleading as no one knew then, and still do not know, what a Leave vote means, would that be the (so called) “Norway option” or the Greenland version of ‘Leave’?…

    “it was because the so called Common market of 1975 had so visibly been taken over by a much vaster project.”

    You mean just as like Ted Heath predicted at the time of entering the EEC, making it clear during a BBC Panorama interview in late 1972 that there would no-doubt be eventual political union & common currency etc, just as people like Benn and Powell made it quite clear again in 1975.

    • Edward2
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

      The Leaflet made it perfectly clear before the referendum vote day.
      As did statements in Parliament by the Prime Minister an d the Chancellor of the Exchequer
      All said, leaving the EU meant leaving the Single Market and the Customs Union.

      • jerry
        Posted April 10, 2018 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

        @Edward2; That is totally irrelevant to the point I was making, Norway is not in the CU but is a member of the EEA (meaning that Norway is, in effect, in the Single market), Greenland is members of neither. Thus both the then PM and Chancellor were wrong, one of the reason why their opinions were often dubbed “Project Fear”.

        • Edward2
          Posted April 11, 2018 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

          You said the question in 2016 was just as misleading as in 1975
          I pointed out how the clear statements by the PM and Chancellor as well as the important official leaflet sent to every home made it far from misleading.

          • jerry
            Posted April 11, 2018 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

            @Edward2; Whilst I pointed out why the 2016 ref was just as misleading, and the then PM and Chancellor was wrong, a country can be a member of the Single Market but not be a member of the CU and thus EU.

            On the other hand, if I’m wrong and Norway is a member of the EU due to being in the EEA, and thus the Single Market, then perhaps @Edward2 you might care to inform the Norwegian government!

    • NickC
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 4:31 pm | Permalink

      Jerry, I knew perfectly what the question asked: to remain in or leave the EU. There were no alternatives to stay partly in the EU, despite your and Remain attempts to re-write history. Your notion that since neither side was a monolith of a single policy that the Referendum is invalid is absurd: no society will think precisely the same even when we vote the same way.

      • jerry
        Posted April 11, 2018 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

        @NickC; Indeed you knew what you voted for, and I would hope so! But did the person who read (for example) “Flexcit – The definitive EU exit plan for Britain by Dr Richard A E North”, and was converted to the cause of Brexit, vote for the same Brexit as you, and what of those who read any of the other 28 leave campaign manifestos, did those UKIPers on this site really vote for the ideals of the Vote Leave group?

        Whilst we voted To Leave, for what ever reasons, we did not vote on either How or When to leave (there were no questions asked of either When or How on the ballot paper), the technicalities of Leaving (and indeed Remaining) was left in the laps of the elected govt.

        Labour and the SNP are correct, the hard right are trying a political land-grab, citing a mandate you do not own.

  19. Richard1
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 7:51 am | Permalink

    Will the event be filmed or recorded?

  20. Duyfken
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 7:52 am | Permalink

    I am surprised you find it worthwhile to engage in debate with Adonis, etc ed

    It has been said many times before that Remainers such as he have provided no indication of what they expect in the future from the EU. How would Adonis make a pitch to any non-EU European country to join?

    What advantage would any country gain from adopting the Euro, from surrendering sovereignty to the EU Cabal intent on full federation, from being tethered to trading and customs rules of one size fits all, from losing control over its industries and economy and population disposition, and from handing over the powers of the courts and law-making to an external body which in probability itself is ruled by its strongest member?

  21. Adam
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 8:16 am | Permalink

    Prior to the Referendum, pro-EU Nick Clegg made two attempts vs Nigel Farage in debate, & frailty demolished him. Developments since have revealed yet more substance in support of truth, & the weight favouring Leave.

    Lord Adonis, with flimsy arguments & anti-democratic stance, lacks the worth the title purports. In treating a squeaking complainant as if he had the stature of an equal opponent, JR exudes magnanimity.

  22. LiamB
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 8:17 am | Permalink

    What’s going to have to happen now is for the UK to leave the EU, cut all ties as per the red lines and then wait for five years or so to see whether we were right or wrong in our voting decision of 2016..nothing else will convince the people as there is too much division in the land.

  23. Peter
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 8:26 am | Permalink

    Lord Adonis is an unelected ‘spin doctor’ who curried favour with the Liberal elite with his left wing thinking on education and politics. An academic who has never had a job in the real world and relies on entitlement and preferment to get views know – he is not worth listening too.

  24. A.Sedgwick
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 8:28 am | Permalink

    But for being given an unelected position in Parliament he would be a political non entity. Regardless the debate will be fascinating.

  25. Edward2
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 8:43 am | Permalink

    Please ask Adonis if he wants the future for the UK to be reduced to a regional area of the United States of Europe.

  26. Andy
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 8:44 am | Permalink

    I am passionately pro-EU and I do not want a second referendum. And the reason I do not want a second referendum is simple – it is not the best way to undo Brexit. With a second referendum Brexiteers will always cry foul. I say let Brexit happen, watch it fail and then undo it. That is the way to permanently destroy it.

    Brexit has always been a lousy, incoherent idea. But even I have been shocked by the level of cluelessness and incompetence by Brexiteers in government and Parliament. Many genuinely have no clue about some of the most basic issues that they face. Worse still, some of them don’t even have a clue about the things they need to have a clue about. It’s quite embarrassing to watch.

    This is why your get lots of pained ranting from Brexiteers in the media, online – and no answers. You’ve had nearly two years now and you can’t answer on customs, or on trade, or on rights, or on the border. It is a monumental, but predictable, mess. But, crucially, it is your mess.

    The electoral wipeout, when it comes, will shock you – but it is coming. Under 45s loathe Brexit AND the party which delivered it. We, overwhelmingly, will never vote Conservative again. Mr Redwood – I agree with you that there should be no second referendum. But you have generations of people beneath you determined to undo Brexit. Most of us have at least 20 years on most of you. You can not stop us. It’s demographics.

    Imagine the pain you will all feel when you get your pensions paid in Euros – when you finally lose the war. Which you will. It is just a matter of time. Remainers, or Rejoiners as we are better described, need do nothing more than wait…..

    • Edward2
      Posted April 11, 2018 at 7:24 pm | Permalink

      Odd how various opinion polls show little change since the referendum.
      In fact Conservatives polling figures have improved whilst Labour’s have not.
      Your arguments if right there should be the opposite trend.
      Its aways sometime in the future you will be proved right isn’t it Andy.

  27. Posted April 10, 2018 at 8:46 am | Permalink

    JR – do not expect your opponent to give any ground, or accept your comments easily – he’s a devoted europhile who, on past history, will twist your words, and try to box you into a corner….. I wish you luck.

  28. Original Richard
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 8:48 am | Permalink

    Please ask Mr. Adonis :

    How is it either economically or democratically beneficial to have our laws, taxes, immigration, foreign and trade policies etc. decided either by unelected bureaucrats or by QMV decisions made by 27 (soon to be 34) other countries?

    Or in the case of third world immigration into the EU by one country alone?

    And why does he think that as one country in 28 we have any significant influence at all on EU policy making?

    For instance, isn’t it easier for a smaller, coherent and united nation to make trade deals than a very large conglomeration of nations or regions each fighting for their own interests?

    Why should we pay large sums of money to have access to a market which sells us £80bn/year more to us than we sell to them? And why does he think that we should remain in a club where the rules and national actions are such that we have this large trading deficit?

    To where is the EU heading? There is much discussion over how the UK will look after it leaves the EU but how does Mr. Adonis see the EU and a UK in the EU a decade from now? Especially an EU that is determined to keep expanding. What affects will this have on our budget contributions How many more EU people will immigrate into the UK?

    Does he agree with Mr. Clegg that young people should have two votes in any possible future EU referendum?

  29. VotedOut
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 8:56 am | Permalink

    In 2016 we voted to leave the EU, that included the single market and customs union.

    We were told we would leave – no ifs, no buts.

    We clearly understood (via a £9 million government leaflet) what we were doing.

    We didn’t vote for YEARS of transition – for which there is absolutely no reason.

    Parliament voted to hand sovereignty to the people on this specific issue. The decision has been made. There is no further discussion. Accept it and democracy or leave the UK

  30. robert lewy
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    EU= SM +CU and EU-EU=BREXIT

    Therefore, EU-EU= SM+CU-SM-SM
    and BREXIT= SM-SM+CU-CU

    So simple Mr Adonis

    • robert lewy
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 9:09 am | Permalink

      correction

      EU= SM +CU and EU-EU=BREXIT

      Therefore, EU-EU= SM+CU-SM-CU
      and BREXIT= SM-SM+CU-CU

      So simple Mr Adonis

  31. Tad Davison
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 9:13 am | Permalink

    Ask him who voted for him, and for what constituency does he presume to speak.

    Tad

    • GY
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

      He speaks for Soros, like so many.

  32. Stred
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 9:17 am | Permalink

    Adonis is one of those unelected bureaucrats that will repeat lies, knowing that half of the audience will believe him. It would be a good idea to predict the usual garbage and take statistics and charts to hold up and ask whether he etc ed
    At the end perhaps ask for a show of hands on whether the House of Cronies should be reformed and the numbers cut.

    • stred
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 5:08 pm | Permalink

      etc ed- May I point out that nothing physical was suggested. Only a question about his ability to understand.

  33. Iain Moore
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 9:22 am | Permalink

    I find the arrogance of the Remainers really wearing, every time they open their mouths they insult us, ..Oh we were too stupid to know what we voted for…. Oh we were too old and senile to know what we voted for….Oh we are a selfish generation that destroyed the young people’s hopes…Oh we were gullible and taken in by non existent Russian propaganda…Oh we were taken in by a few ads on social media ( that we were supposedly too old and too stupid to know how to log onto) and the terrible Cambridge Analytica . This of course is after 30 years of abuse the EUphiles piled on EUsceptics where they called us every name under the sun. I suppose the real mystery is how the EUphiles have managed to portray themselves as a suave generous bunch, when really they are nasty and mean minded lot. Even now Ken Clarke can’t say anything with out making some disingenuous comment about the Brexiteers.

    The fanatical narrow mindedness of the EU supporters cab be seen by Adonis, who of late has been attacking the BBC for allowing Nigel Farage on its programs. What Adonis is unable to comprehend is that the 4 million votes Nigel Farage and UKIP got meant the BBC had to give him air time. The real question Adonis has raised is how many votes have you got Mr Adonis? As the answer seems to be none, then poses the question why is Mr Adonis being allowed anywhere near a TV studio?

    And just to put Mr Adonis right on another point, it wasn’t ‘populism’ and media coverage that Farrage got which turned the vote against the EU, it was what the EU and its supporters and got up to with out having any mandate. For me the break was Maastricht.

  34. Rien Huizer
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 9:27 am | Permalink

    Of course, Mr Adonis had his disappointment in 2016 and you had yours in 1975. In your opinion, Adonis should accept his “loss” as well as you did and not try to act against the referendum result. A somewhat strange way to put it but, fair enough if you see things as strongly as you apparently do.

    Reading your posts for about a year now, I discern a high level of consistency and a bit of Oakeshott’s critique of “rationalism”. You reject the technocratic approach of Brussels who see no problem in erasing national identities and want to break with traditions if those are in the way of progress. As a fellow conservative (but not an Oakeshottian, I do not believe national identities are worth much outside the sports arena and have been a source of great harm to continental Europe in the 20th century. One could make the same claim about religion, but imo thgat has been less harmful than nationalism – not that I would call you a nationalist (although some people commenting here would wear that badge with pride). I guess that you are an excellent example why the Britain that you represent (and that is not a vulgar fringe element like the Front National or the AfD, let alone the political entrepreneurs you see in Holland) does not belong in a club consisting of countries that were either occupied by or allied with Germany and Germany, the geographical heart of
    Europe, herself. British exceptionislm is justified and, in addition, UK governments place their own popularity above the economic interests of the country sometimes. Very few local elites in other European countries condone that sort of behaviour by their members.

    • NickC
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

      Rien, The “source of great harm to continental Europe in the 20th century” came from countries (one in particular) stamping on other countries nationalism. It is not ones own nationalism that causes wars but trying to obliterate other peoples’. Which is why the EU is the (modern) problem.

    • stred
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

      I see that Napoleon is getting together with the lovely Mr Verhofstadt and is planning to on marche everywhere in the Eurozone with a single tax system and pooling debt. Your ex- rulers to the south of him are in agreement. How do the financially responsible Germans and Dutch feel about having a French or Spanish Chancellor?

    • GY
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 7:01 pm | Permalink

      Dr Redwood is a patriot not a nationalist. Given their recent histories, most of the EU’s member states have nothing to be patriotic about. Shove your globalist anti-democratic nonsense.

    • Andy
      Posted April 11, 2018 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

      The problems in Europe over the last 300 years are a result of two countries: France and more recently Germany both seeking hegemony over all of Europe. There has been trouble in Europe since German unification in 1871 which was forged in War. The First World War was a result of Imperial Germany seeking to dominate and control. It ended in their defeat. The Second World War was a result of exactly the same desire by Nazi Germany and again resulted in defeat. You are right to point out virtually every other country suffered defeat and occuption in many cases, and some were too cowardly to take sides. The UK bankrupted herself defeating a tyranny that YOU Continental Europeans created and for, it often seems, little thanks. So no the UK does not belong in the EU nor ever did. And actually one of the worst mistakes our stupid political class made was to abandon EFTA, because that was actually the way ahead, not some failed…………. idea that is the EU.

  35. Lifelogic
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 9:31 am | Permalink

    Any views on the landslide victory of Orban in Hungary?

    Tibor Fischey has a good article in the Telegraph today. Perhaps the Tories can learn something about how to win elections from this, not that I am suggesting they copy him completely.

    It is not by having the highest and most complex taxes for 40 years, endless new daft laws and regulations, telling men they should do more housework or running on a “vote for us and we will kick you in the teeth manifesto”. Not by being led by a vision less, social justice warier and robotic. I think that, at least, is very clear.

    Nor is it by having a police force who have given up on nearly all real crime and an NHS which is killing many thousands and can never work as structured. Nor by having a bonkers expensive & unreliable energy policy.

  36. Denis Cooper
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 10:42 am | Permalink

    Well, JR, if during the debate he claims that for the first time a recent opinion poll has found that a majority of UK voters want a referendum on the final Brexit deal, a lie which has now got to the other side of the world:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12029494

    “Britons back vote on final Brexit deal”

    then just point out that 45% is greater than 39%.

    http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/cqvaei0d1b/BestForBritain_Results_180406_w.pdf

    “Once the negotiations between Britain and the European Union over a Brexit deal have been completed, do you think there should or should not be a public vote on whether Britain accepts the deal or remains in the EU after all?”

    Should ………. 39%
    Should not …. 45%
    Not sure …….. 17%

    And then add that under Article 50 TEU in the EU treaties the UK has no unilateral right to change its mind and revoke the notice of withdrawal it has already lodged, and there is no guarantee that even if the other member states did agree to allow that they would also agree to the UK staying in on the current terms as claimed by the Best for Britain group that he supports.

    These people are brazen liars.

  37. Posted April 10, 2018 at 11:24 am | Permalink

    Good luck John!
    I did put a tweet on Adonis’ twitter site this morning criticising the fact that although you have made sensible comment above, he’s already started slagging you off, lying and chucking mud in your direction. I expected nothing less from him frankly.

    He’s censored out the tweet. I kinda expected that from him as well to be honest.

    Perhaps you should ask him what mandate he has for defying the will of the people given that he’s never held any elected office …?

  38. Little Englander
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    Adonis? Another hopeless little man.

  39. Alasdair Macleod
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    Besides the obvious issues, such as who governs us, and unelected Brussels executive or Parliament, I have not heard one credible economic argument why we should remain. I suggest you try to tease one out of him, and drill down into it.

  40. Thames Trader
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    In the original Common Market referendum the public was deceived, as JR says. They were told they were voting for trading arrangements, everything else was hushed up and the outcome for the public was being subsumed into an empire.

    Move forward 40 years and the same thing is happening. The Remainers bang on about trade and how the sky will fall in if we don’t remain in the Single Market. They keep quiet about the rest of it and do everything they can to avoid talking about being governed by an organisation that is not accountable to the British people.

    In this debate I’d like to see JR steer the discussion away from trade and on to the area of government, the future direction of the EU and its lack of accountability.

    • Henry Spark
      Posted April 11, 2018 at 6:25 am | Permalink

      Really? I distinctly remember Enoch Powell shouting from the rooftops in 1975 about sovereignty

  41. Mick
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 1:35 pm | Permalink

    Tell Adonis straight that there isn’t going to be another referendum because himself and all the other remoaners and the Eu will do and say anything to keep us in the dreaded Eu club, we do not trust that there would be a fair one , and that if he loves being in Europe then to pack his bags along with all the other remoaners and go live there, bye bye you’ll not be missed, the only people we want in OUR green and pleasant land are true believers in democracy and he does not qualify

    • Andy
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

      Is your comment supposed to be ironic? In a DEMOCRCY you only want people who agree with you. Mad.

      • Edward2
        Posted April 11, 2018 at 7:25 pm | Permalink

        Adonis is a technocrat.
        He hasn’t been elected by any of us.

  42. Denis Cooper
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    https://www.politico.eu/article/the-turning-point-in-brexit-opinion-that-probably-isnt-brexit-files-insight/

    “The ‘turning point’ in Brexit opinion that probably isn’t”

    “So is this the turning point that Remainers have been waiting for? Has public opinion swung decisively in favor of another vote and staying in the EU?

    Probably not.

    For one thing, the 44-36 response was only garnered by asking people, vaguely, whether the public should “have a final say” on whether Britain accepts May’s deal or stays in the EU. When, in the same survey, YouGov asked a more specific question — “Do you think there should or should not be a public vote” — only 39 percent said there should be and 45 percent said there should not. While there is clearly some appetite for the public remaining part of the process, the two different answers to two similar questions reflect how marginal any increase in support for another vote has been.”

    • mancunius
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

      Denis, I don’t think it’s even ‘some appetite’ for consultation. It’s just what the Person in the Street says if asked whether he/she believes the voter should be consulted about x or y. I mean, if not informed of the premise of the question, or the practical consequences of a positive answer, who’s going to refuse to have more of ‘a final say’? It sounds such a jolly good idea. Only those who can make an educated, sceptical guess as to probable outcomes, and who are well aware of the dire constitutional consequences of having one plebiscite cancelling the results of another recent one, will say No.
      This is all down to pro-EU MPs and peers trying to find a pretext to countermand the national electorate’s decision. They should all just knuckle down and get on with what they’re paid to do: to re-enact the UK’s independence.

  43. mancunius
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

    JR, you might ask Lord Adonis which version of the EU, specifically, he thinks Remainers might have voted for? The entirely integrated federal superstate of the future posited in the Treaties? Or easy access to sunny beaches, cross-border property rights, and benefits in foreign countries?
    Did they know they had voted for the UK to adopt the euro? That is is the planned common currency of the entire EU, and its enforced implementation in all EU countries with exception will dominate all other interests and marginalise all EU countries that do not adopt it – until the day it fails, as it inescapably will. If Adonis thinks we – or Denmark etc – can avoid rejoining ERM, regardless of the Maastricht opt-out, he has failed to understand the core essence of the EU superstate project from its inception. Any country not adopting the euro will be deliberately ignored and exploited in economic and fiscal matters by Brussels and the Franco-German alliance – as the UK was from September 1992 onwards, despite attempts by Major and Blair to pretend it still had some say. (Brown could no longer even bother to pretend.)
    Greece in 2010-2015 was a eurozone financial crisis, a direct result of euro and EBC policy, but the UK – excluded from all consultations on the matter – was still expected to indemnify eurozone banks for Greek losses: we also had to loan money to RoI for its own euro-debt crisis.
    Ask Lord Adonis why, if it was economically providential for the UK – as it was – that we remained outside the euro during the credit crisis, why would it be beneficial for us to join it now? And if he agrees it would not be, let him explain how we could avoid or (if the referendum result had gone to Remain) how we might have survived politically in the EU outside the euro?

  44. Prigger
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 3:52 pm | Permalink

    Has Lord Adonis suggested that battle commence AFTER luncheon?

  45. Ron Olden
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

    POLITICAL GAMES

    The UK can’t DEMAND, ANY of the benefits of being in the Single Market post Brexit. We just have to take whatever we can get.

    Leaving the Single Market, and the Customs Union has advantages, and some disadvantages. The Labour Party can’t DEMAND that any Free Trade agreement we get allow us to pocket all the advantages, and avoid all the disadvantages.

    It’s irrelevant whether the final EU deal the Government gets, is as good as they say its going to be. We have to take what they can get for us, or Leave with no deal at all.

    This is the risk we took when we voted LEAVE. During the Referendum Campaign, the Remain campaign told us daily, that there was a likelihood that there’s be no deal OF ANY SORT. And Parliament, (including a majority of Labour MPs), voted by a majority of nearly 5:1, to invoke Article 50 with no guarantee of any deal whatsoever.

    All six of these Labour Party ‘tests’ are, in any case so vaguely worded and subjective, that you could describe ANY deal as satisfying, or not satisfying them.

    Which is exactly Labour’s intention. They will refuse to support any deal arrives, and say it fails their ‘tests’. The are simply leaving the way open to oppose or abstain on the deal when it comes before Parliament.

    But which way they vote, will have nothing to do with the merits of the deal. It will be to do with what the rules as dictated by their political games.

    Mr Gardiner however, has made an important good point today. And it’s a point I’ve been repeating myself. Varadkar and Sinn Fein have been deliberately scaremongering about the fate of the Good Friday Agreement for the sake of getting their own way on Brexit.

    But as Mr Gardiner pointed out, it’s overwhelmingly in the Republic of Ireland’s economic interests to get a Free Trade Deal with UK. In fact a deal is far more vital to the ROI that it is either to to us, or the rest of the EU.

    Mr Gardiner had nothing to apologise about. If these stupid Remainers misunderstood what he meant that’s their problem.

    I also noticed today that Bertie Aherne has said that there will be ‘no physical border between Northern Ireland and the Republic after Brexit’. He says that ‘people would pull it down’. Good!! So this non existent ‘problem’, is sorted then! There’s no need for any more talks on the subject.

    But the people he should be telling this to are the EU. The UK has made it clear that:- ‘deal or no deal’ there will be no physical border. It’s the EU that keeps threatening to put one up, unless the UK does as its told.

    • stred
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

      It’s simple. if Vardakar wants to build a fence and customs posts, he’s welcome to do so and have it pulled down. If he wants a 40% tariff on Irish cheddar we can manage to use NI milk in Somerset. He wants a Commissioners job and perks when he’s kicked out.

    • Andy
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

      If you voted Leave, you voted for a hard border. Stop whining and deal with the inevitable consequences of YOUR vote.

      You can not ‘take back control’ of your borders without having a border. The consequences of your vote include a declinig economy, a return to violence and, eventually, a united Ireland. This is what Leave quittlings voted for.

      • Edward2
        Posted April 11, 2018 at 3:51 pm | Permalink

        Yet there was no hard border in Ireland decades ago and no hard border today.
        So there is no need for one tomorrow.
        The UK have said we don’t want one.
        If the EU want one they can get on with it.
        It’s a false flag project fear attempt to stop or harm Brexit
        But it isn’t going to work.
        Try another ruse.

  46. TedC
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    You stick it to him JR, give him all the old slogans like taking back control of our laws, our borders, our fisheries and money etc..tell him out mean out, brexit means brexit and we’re going to make a success of it. Tell him that the Gernan car manufacturers have been up to Berlin to put pressure on Mrs Merkel to give us a sweet deal from outside on the things we want..and despite what Barnier says we are going to cherry pick our way to success because that is what we voted for..We don’t have to bother with the other things like letting east european foreigners in.. In fact ask Adonis does he seriously think that the French wine producers are going to let UK go without getting a good deal for the export of their plonk? We don’t neet to be at their table to make decisions..all we need to do is pay up whatever access price is demanded for our trade with them and then get on with it..we won’t even have passporting for our financial servicespe so we will have to go a different way..then we’ll be able to make our own decisions about bendy bananas and such things..new international trade deals await us..we will assemble a new merchant fleet of ships and expand our fishery waters out to twelve miles just like we had before 1973..alls good so ask Lord Adonis what can be better than that..what can he offer?

    • margaret howard
      Posted April 10, 2018 at 10:19 pm | Permalink

      We had 3 ‘Cod wars’ with Iceland between the 1950s/70’s which we lost. Do you see a return to those days when we attempt to expand our fishing waters?

    • Henry Spark
      Posted April 11, 2018 at 6:27 am | Permalink

      The French cheesemakers! You forgot the French cheesemakers! Even now they are lobbying M Macron to make sure the UK gets a GREAT deal

  47. nigel seymour
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    Go get him John!

  48. Chewy
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

    I’m glad you’re debating, probably debated with Lord Adonis by time you read post. Judging by his recent interview I’d say the more exposure he gets the better. Some of the things he’s coming out with such as the chestnut about the referendum just being about triggering article 50 sound daft frankly. I reckon desperation is kicking in after he predicted a huge movement early this year mobilising mass support for the Remain cause. Ain’t happening is it, rather a sense of petering out.
    Interesting comments on that most Remoaning of publications the Independent in response to the highly neutral Best for Britain poll saying that there was a majority for a second poll while not revealing the question asked. Quite a few EU citizens made the point that if we did try and reverse the Leave decision with a referendum then the Eu 27 would have to decide whether to take us in and on what terms eg with less opt outs which sounds a reasonable proposition. This would surely require a third ref to see if we wanted then to Remain on these new terms by the same justification the Remoaners are asking for a second. Hopefully not too waffley after an arduous evening.

  49. John
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    Can’t think f a better person to have a debate on the EU with this Andreas Adonis. He has deaf ears so won’t listen to reason, it doesn’t matter as he has no democratic standing and never has.

  50. margaret howard
    Posted April 10, 2018 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    “Talking to people afterwards who voted to stay, all thought they had just voted for a Common market, not for the wider Community which became a Union”

    Really? The 1975 official referendum was quite clear in its aims:

    Extract from the official 1975 referendum leaflet:

    The aims of the Common Market are:

    Bring together the peoples of Europe

    Raise living standards and improve working conditions

    Promote growth and boost world trade

    Help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world

    Help maintain peace and freedom
    ===

    So Mr Redwood is quite disingenuous when claiming the referendum was dishonest

    Reply It said Common Market on the ballot paper, yet the EEC was much more than a common market

  51. simon slater
    Posted April 11, 2018 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    All very good JR but you know the May/Robbins government is on the verge of selling out Brexit entirely. What are you going to do about it?

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    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, He graduated from Magdalen College Oxford, has a DPhil and is a fellow of All Souls College. A businessman by background, he has been a director of NM Rothschild merchant bank and chairman of a quoted industrial PLC.

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