The collapse of the Venezuelan model and the damage done by nationalisation

There are today 79,900 Venezuelan bolivars to one dollar, compared with 10 last year according to the official rate. No-one can be sure how big the drop has been in national income and output because the government no longer produces figures. There are shortages of many basic items in the shops. An authoritarian government distributes items to those it favours and damages the right to vote for change. What we do know is that thanks to nationalisation, the Venezuelan oil industry has fallen on very hard times.

Venezuela has the largest known oil reserves of any country in the world. Before Chavez took power, Venezuela produced and sold 3.5 m barrels a day. This was modest output compared to the USA or Saudi at around 12 m barrels a day, and eminently sustainable. Under sensible management with private sector expertise, technology and investment it would have been possible to expand output substantially and add to state revenues. Instead today Venezuela struggles to produce just 1.5m barrels.

This came about by forcing oil companies that were producing good quantities for Venezuela into accepting very poor joint ventures with the state, or appropriating their assets. The people who knew how to run the enterprises were replaced. The state overtaxed the exports, leaving the nationalised industry short of cash to maintain and modernise its production assets and to keep its fleet of tankers for export up to international standards. The nationalisation was meant to give the government full control to allow it to perform better and more in the interests of the state. Instead it has led to a sharp drop in output, in state revenues and exports. This is particularly worrying for the country as it is chronically dependent on oil exports for its failing balance of payments, and on oil revenues to meet the costs of government.

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86 Comments

  1. Mark B
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 5:30 am | Permalink

    Good morning

    Let’s hope that this post does not get moderated like yesterdays 😉

    One has to ask, before nationalisation were the Venezuelan people getting a good deal ? I ask this as I have read that the UK Government sold drilling rights to our oil, which was of a premium type, rather cheaply.

    The oil price has indeed dropped and because of government over reliance on it for its revenues and high cost social welfare programs is now struggling. The problems the people of Venezuela have is one of over centralisation. And with that, when things go wrong there is no one else to blame.

    • acorn
      Posted June 13, 2018 at 6:04 am | Permalink

      You have to wait two days to read my comments, if then. To hot to handle for leavers. 😎

      • Mark B
        Posted June 16, 2018 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

        You’re bloody right.

        About waiting two days that is 😉

  2. agricola
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 6:03 am | Permalink

    This is a problem for Corbyn and his sheep For the sane and logical followers of history it is a diversion.

  3. Andy
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 6:12 am | Permalink

    An authoritarian government – acting in the interests of the few, not the many.

    Tory hard-right pensioner Brexit Britain.

    • Anonymous
      Posted June 13, 2018 at 5:08 am | Permalink

      The majority of voters sought Brexit.

    • libertarian
      Posted June 13, 2018 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

      Andy

      “An authoritarian government – acting in the interests of the few, not the many”

      That sir is a brilliant one liner. It neatly encapsulates the European Union, and is so true.

  4. fedupsoutherner
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 6:16 am | Permalink

    Independent Scotland take note!

  5. BartD
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 6:23 am | Permalink

    Another failed country along with Brazil and Argentine that we won’t be doing much business with in the future.

  6. Old Albion
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 6:26 am | Permalink

    This cannot be true! Jeremy says we should model our country on Venezuela.

  7. DUNCAN
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 6:28 am | Permalink

    Nationalisation is mere code for union control of strategic areas of an economy. Labour and their union backers have one simple aim. It is to bring as many areas of the British economy under political and union control.

    Do Labour and their union backers care if they damage the British economy by such policies? Of course they don’t. These people are political animals. Politics and political control is everything. To undermine and weaken all things private is their fundamental goal

    I have no doubt that if Labour and their union backers achieve power they will severely damage the British economy and the UK’s exchequer in under fiver years and damage this nation beyond repair

    This group of political animals, and we all know who they are, are driven by resentment, hatred and a desire for revenge. To control those they hate is their aim

    Pandering to unions in the way this PM does is emboldening them. I don’t understand why May does what she does in this regard. She’s the enemy of the hard left unions. Workers on company boards (in reality, union activists on company boards not an employee) is without doubt one of the most antediluvian ideas of the last 50 years or so.

    There’s an industrial war coming to Britain and we need a PM who is able to confront the hard left union threat to the UK and its economy. What we don’t need is a virtue signalling, liberal left apologist in charge

  8. alan jutson
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 6:36 am | Permalink

    With so many examples of State run failure throughout the World, you wonder why so many developed Countries Politicians, our own included, think they should interfere and control even more areas which directly impact on our lives.

  9. Adam
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 7:12 am | Permalink

    Misguided or incompetent leaders of any type of Govt are prone to cause its descending into chaos & self-destruction. Following that, sensible folk emerge to pick up the pieces worth restoring & proceed on a better path.

    • Turboterrier.
      Posted June 12, 2018 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

      @ Adam

      Misguided or incompetent leaders of any type of Govt are prone to cause its descending into chaos & self-destruction.

      Is it not what is happening here at the moment?

  10. Richard1
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 7:17 am | Permalink

    People should not forget the extent of support by Corbyn, McDonnell et al for the dreadful socialist regime in Venezuela. It wasn’t one-off remarks or occasional friendly gestures, it was sustained and consistent strong support and praise over many years, long after the dictatorial character of the regime and its appalling economic failures were apparent. Corbyn and Co were clear they wanted the Venezuela model (“there is another way”) in the U.K. in a recent interview McDonnell was allowed by a BBC interviewer to hide behind the falsehood that it was all fine until Chávez died and Maduro took over. This patent falsehood was left unchallenged. Maduro has continued Chavez’s policies and is now reaping the effects of them. Let us all be warned.

  11. Lifelogic
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 7:50 am | Permalink

    Indeed any yet Corbyn, McDonnall and the SNP nearly got in thanks to the appalling incompetence and left wing lunacy of May and Hammond.

    One can damage an economy almost as much by over taxation, dire state virtual monopolies (as we have in Heath and Education) and huge over regulation, gender pay & pay gap reporting laws, bonkers employment laws, minimum wages and the likes.

    This is the route lefty dopes May and Hammond clearly have chosen.

    So Theresa May has said she will “always regret” not meeting the residents of Grenfell Tower in the immediate aftermath of the disaster. Fine what about the tragedy that is the NHS about the same death toll due to negligence, incompetence and rationing every week. She could actually do something about that by addressing the absurd structure and funding system in health.

    I see that the relevant Minister is still defending the Fire Service’s actions at Grenfell Tower, muttering about “hindsight”. It was not hindsight that was needed. It was very clear that nearly everyone would have survived this fire had someone with a brain evacuated the place about about 15 minutes into the fire – as was obviously needed and could be seen to be needed just by looking at the fire going up the outside of the building!

  12. margaret
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 8:05 am | Permalink

    I will say it again. It is not the models ; i.e state or private , but the people employed and managing the structure. Where the caps fits people will wear it. If it rigorous , honest and loyal then it will work, but even this needs fairness to employees.

    • Woody
      Posted June 12, 2018 at 10:14 am | Permalink

      It is indeed the models. Socialism acts against human nature by expecting people in power not to abuse it and exploit it. The lesser beings … us plebs … are expected to nod our heads with awe at the more than equals telling us what to do. In capitalism we can choose to buy their goods and chose to work for them, its based on mutual exploitation and every one has a degree of power. Capitalism has led to the greatest reduction in poverty world wide … socialism has led to the most deaths.

    • margaret
      Posted June 12, 2018 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

      ‘cap’ singular to agree with ‘it,’of course, but many will perform to what is expected of them and what their peers do . A system doses not work without the people who run and work within in it. I do tend to state the obvious but having said that I wonder why some find it difficult to grasp the simple facts.

  13. Man of Kent
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 8:30 am | Permalink

    Thank you , we know all this , most of the country knows it too .
    What many of us do not appreciate is the line – if you are not loyal to TM and the Govt
    on Brexit then you will get Corbyn .

    If TM went for a ‘no deal ‘ Brexit there would be absolutely no chance of a Corbyn victory .

    Just a Tory landslide !

    • Gary C
      Posted June 12, 2018 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

      @ Man of Kent

      Unfortunately TM has not got the strength of spine to go for a ‘no deal”

    • Turboterrier.
      Posted June 12, 2018 at 2:30 pm | Permalink

      M o K

      Just a Tory landslide !

      OMG I pray you are right on this one. You have far more faith than me and a lot of other people

    • Lifelogic.
      Posted June 12, 2018 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

      But she has gone for a “Brexit means sweet FA to T May deal” exactly as I expected. This dreadful electoral liability must be replaced now. Tory voters have had enough of dim, lefty, tax to death, pro EU, socialist dopes.

  14. acorn
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 8:34 am | Permalink

    Wow! There were only 9.98 VEF (notice the “F”) to the US Dollar yesterday. They devalued in 2008.

    Anyway, the moral of the story is, (a) never peg your currency to a foreign currency; (b) never borrow money in a foreign currency; particularly US Dollars, if you are a country with a lot of Oil reserves, that the USA needs to have total control of, overtly or covertly.

    The UK (Lawson – Major) tried pegging its currency to the Deutsche Mark (ERM) in 1990. Two years later we had Black Wednesday’s exit from the ERM. The UK was rapidly burning up its foreign reserves.

    L. Randall Wray To Fix or To Float, that is the question. (Google it)

    MMT argues that a sovereign government that issues its own “nonconvertible” currency cannot become insolvent in terms of its own currency. It cannot be forced into involuntary default on its obligations denominated in its own currency. It can “afford” to buy anything for sale that is priced in its own currency. It might be able to buy things for sale in foreign currency by offering up its own currency in exchange—but that is not certain.

    If, instead, it promises to convert its currency at a fixed price to something else (gold, foreign currency) then it might not be able to keep that promise. Insolvency and involuntary default become possible.”

  15. Fish Knife
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 8:39 am | Permalink

    Dr. R.
    I’m not convinced by your argument against Nationalisation. I think you are asking the wrong question.
    Take Rail. A natural monopoly; with computorised organisation, ticketing & schedules should all be easier than in the ‘old days’.
    It has to be cheaper for the State to borrow money than anyone else, and cutting out franchisers and their investors cannot be economically bad.
    The question we should be asking is ‘How best to motivate and incentivise a Nationalised Railway’.
    We do it quite well in the Armed Services, the NHS – dried up sandwiches have a cure now – cling film and Tupperware.
    Good luck today.

    • Fish Knife
      Posted June 12, 2018 at 11:24 am | Permalink

      The most difficult question to answer is how to limit Union power, driverless trains could be a first step.

  16. 37/6
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 8:51 am | Permalink

    I blame the ‘Chavez’ type attitude rather than nationalisation itself.

    Where we have nationalisation (the British Army/Navy) we produce the SAS/SBS.

    In the US the nationalised NASA got men to the Moon. The West relies on the communist Russian Soyus rockets to get to the International Space Station long after the privateered space shuttle has gone to the knacker’s.

    I don’t need to know the above to realise that nationalisation is good for state essentials. I know this instead. I fear nationalisation on the UK’s railways. Privatisation is the best thing to have happened to employees working in that industry. The amalgamation of TOC’s would result in cross covering of work and therefore an instant surplus of staff. It would be good for the country, however.

    • Wessexboy
      Posted June 12, 2018 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

      I rather think that SAS/SBS are in spite of being part of a government controlled service. NASA was a ‘money is no object’ project. Any government which takes sufficient tax to pay for such projects may well get good results, but not necessarily good value.

      • Anonymous
        Posted June 13, 2018 at 5:14 am | Permalink

        Do want me to bore everyone and list the many unmatched elites created by government agencies ?

  17. nhsgp
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 8:53 am | Permalink

    So are you going to allow the people of the UK the right of consent or are you going to carry on like Venezuela because it suits you?

    Where is the right of people to opt out of the state pension? [Conditional on investing their money in a fund they own]. Rather than you using their money on your off the book debts.

    What about saying no to funding Oxfam? Or are you going to use violence to get your way

    It’s the same problem, same thinking.

  18. MickN
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    O/T I see that Dr Philip Lee has just resigned from the government “so that I can better speak up for my constituents and country over how Brexit is currently being delivered”

    Please correct me if I am wrong but I thought his constituency voted to leave the EU by 54% to 46% .

    What am I missing here?

    • Hope
      Posted June 12, 2018 at 10:09 am | Permalink

      If he truly believed it he would have not stood at the last election. He knew what the manifesto stated, govt policy and the wishes of his constituents to leave the EU. It is a disreputable way of conducting himself.

      This is why there should be a speedy meaningful right to recall and the party holding the seat allowed to put in another MP from that party until the next election. That way governance of the country not threatened and the public rightly allowed to stop this sort of shenanigans to uphold the integrity and purpose of parliament. These sort of people would soon be ousted and make parliament a better place. On the same footing only the lay people on the standards committee should get a vote to decide discipline not the other way around. Time for self policing to stop to raise standards in the cess pit of Westminster.

      • Hope
        Posted June 12, 2018 at 10:11 am | Permalink

        Another dopy appointment by May showing her lack of Judgement.

    • Peter Parsons
      Posted June 12, 2018 at 11:29 am | Permalink

      Voting in Berkshire in the EU referendum was reported by local authority area, not parliamentary constituency. The figures you quote are for Bracknell Forest, not the Bracknell constituency.

      Bracknell Forest is split over the Bracknell and Windsor constituencies, and the Bracknell parliamentary constituency includes wards in Wokingham borough which voted overall 57/43 for remain, and while Bracknell Forest has published results by ward, Wokingham borough chose not to, so it is not possible to calculate an exact result for Bracknell constituency.

      • MickN
        Posted June 13, 2018 at 1:20 am | Permalink

        Then Peter Parsons I stand corrected. Am I also wrong to assume that he stood in the last general election on a manifesto stating that he would support Mrs May to get us out of the EU?

        • Peter Parsons
          Posted June 13, 2018 at 9:47 am | Permalink

          I would presume that he stood on whatever was in his party’s manifesto along with anything he might have said locally to the electors in his constituency. What those were or might have been I’m not able to comment on.

      • Hope
        Posted June 13, 2018 at 7:42 am | Permalink

        Tosh, voting was based on constituency wards for MPs not loacal authority areas. You might want to chose a boundary of your choice to suit your preferred outcome but it still not correct. He represents a leave ward.myou lost, he lost and his actiincompetence NHs were nothing short of disgusting. He should be deselected ASAP. I hope Grieve paid for the dinner the night before. If so strong in his views why did he abstain? He resigned to vote against the government?

        • Peter Parsons
          Posted June 13, 2018 at 9:38 am | Permalink

          Hope, how about checking your facts?

          https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/elections-and-referendums/past-elections-and-referendums/eu-referendum/electorate-and-count-information

          Look under South East – Bracknell Forest and Wokingham. Those are both Unitary authorities, not parliamentary constituencies and the parliamentary constitency of Brackenell includes wards from both.

          I’m not “picking a boundary to suit a preferred outcome”, I’m stating what is simple fact, something Phillip Lee did himself in the House of Commons yesterday.

          • Hope
            Posted June 13, 2018 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

            Did he not read the manifesto, leaflet drop by Cameron, speeches in parliament by Cameron? Start fact checking and then make a worthy comment. No he did not do in the HoC, otherwise he could have stood down at the last two elections, he should have not accepted the ministerial post because he knew what the govt policy was and awhat collective responsibility meant. He then abstained! He needs to be ousted ASAP.

      • libertarian
        Posted June 13, 2018 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

        Peter Parson

        Except that his constituency Chair has written to him to tell him that he does not represent their views . Deselection arriving shortly

        ps Having got the letter I suspect its why he lost his bottle and abstained

    • Chris
      Posted June 12, 2018 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

      You are right MickN. Speaking as a local, I think Philip Lee is giving a misleading view of his constituency. From getreading website the results for the EU referendum:

      Bracknell votes LEAVE

      Votes for Remain were: 29,888

      Votes for Leave were: 35,002

      The turnout was: 76.1 per cent

      Philip Lee is less than honest in his claim, I believewould be more accurate

    • mancunius
      Posted June 12, 2018 at 2:23 pm | Permalink

      Lee claims that his constituents voting for Brexit was ‘a mistake’.

      The corollorary is that if they are so mistaken, their voting for Philip Lee must also have been a mistake.

      Ergo, he should resign not only as a minister, but as an MP.

      • Drachma
        Posted June 12, 2018 at 7:57 pm | Permalink

        Mancunius..no you have it wrong..his constituents should resign

    • Turboterrier.
      Posted June 12, 2018 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

      MickN

      Just goes to show that some politicians live in their “own little world” where at least they are understood.

      What is more disconcerting is that the get nominated in the first place.

    • Hope
      Posted June 12, 2018 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

      Guido reports how Lee went to dinner with a Grieve last night! Says it all. A bit like the Adonis resignation, a damp squib by an insignificant person. Let us hope his association has the guts to deselect him.

      • Old Cook
        Posted June 12, 2018 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

        People are allowed to date

    • Sir Joes Soap
      Posted June 12, 2018 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

      It’s now up to his constituents to speak up for themselves then, and deselect them for ignoring their democratically stated wish. He voted to give them their say, and now denies them it.

  19. Denis Cooper
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 9:27 am | Permalink

    Also off-topic, here we go again, with the EU Commission restating something that most UK politicians have been trying to ignore for at least six months:

    https://openeurope.org.uk/daily-shakeup/commons-vote-eu-withdrawal-bill-amendments/#section-2

    “The European Commission yesterday published a presentation warning that the UK’s proposal for a temporary customs backstop on the island of Ireland would be “leading to a hard border” since it “does not cover regulatory controls.””

    Here’s Professor Kevin O’Rourke in the Irish Times on December 6th:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/kevin-o-rourke-britain-wakes-up-to-the-reality-of-free-trade-1.3316849

    “Getting rid of border controls on trade thus depended on both the European customs union, and the European single market.”

    • isp001
      Posted June 12, 2018 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

      Given the UK has committed to not have a hard border – even with different regulatory standards, surely it is the EU / Ireland who would be breaching the good friday agreement?

  20. David D
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 9:30 am | Permalink

    An easy example of how government interference ruins prosperity. What is much harder for people to see is the slow, insidious, downgrading of wealth and stifling of innovation that countries like Britain suffer from government. All government impoverishes it’s people, Venezuala’s government just does it faster.

    • Woody
      Posted June 12, 2018 at 10:20 am | Permalink

      I find that hard to correlate your comment to the fact that my parents were born in penury and I live in relative comfort with house, car, entertainment and holidays .. I am not unique but considered to be a norm in modern society. Government enables the economy to work .. whereas Venezuala type governments ( Corbyns la la land) doesn’t.

  21. Denis Cooper
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 9:55 am | Permalink

    Off-topic again, I think Professor Steve Peers at the University of Essex would do well to look at the WTO Trade Facilitation Agreement which came into force on February 22nd 2017, and in particular its Article 7.4.

    Professor Peers claims that Jacob Rees-Mogg is wrong:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/11/rees-mogg-no-need-for-customs-checks-at-dover-in-no-deal-brexit

    ““The basic idea that we will check non-EU goods but not check EU if there is no trade deal done with the EU or a customs union agreement will violate the basic rules of the WTO, because that would be deemed discriminatory,” said Steve Peers, professor or law at the University of Essex and EU law expert.”

    But Article 7.4 TFA expressly allows for just that sort of scenario:

    https://www.wto.org/english/docs_e/legal_e/tfa-nov14_e.htm#art7

    “4 Risk Management

    4.1 Each Member shall, to the extent possible, adopt or maintain a risk management system for customs control.

    4.2 Each Member shall design and apply risk management in a manner as to avoid arbitrary or unjustifiable discrimination, or a disguised restriction on international trade.

    4.3 Each Member shall concentrate customs control and, to the extent possible other relevant border controls, on high-risk consignments and expedite the release of low-risk consignments. A Member also may select, on a random basis, consignments for such controls as part of its risk management.

    4.4 Each Member shall base risk management on an assessment of risk through appropriate selectivity criteria. Such selectivity criteria may include, inter alia, the Harmonized System code, nature and description of the goods, country of origin, country from which the goods were shipped, value of the goods, compliance record of traders, and type of means of transport.”

    The withdrawal of the UK from the EU will not affect the legal standards applied to goods in the EU, and at least for the foreseeable future the UK could justifiably continue to treat imports from the EU as being very low risk, just as it does now, while continuing to treat imports from some other parts of the world as being much higher risk, just as it does now, and arguably it would actually contravene Article 4.3 not to do that.

  22. Hope
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 10:03 am | Permalink

    Remainer Phillip Lee on the day of the crucial vote decides to resign to claim he needs to do so for his constituents. But his constituents voted leave! Does he realise his publicity scam will not wash with his constituents and there should be a deselection or right to recall for making such claims. These sort of shenanigans put the reputation of Parliament and those in office into question whether they are fit to hold office. Clearly he is not and does not represent the views of his constituents or govt policy. Does he remember the manifesto he stood on to be elected? If he disagreed why not resign before the election and allow someone else to represent his ward who believed in the manifesto, govt policy and wishes of his electorate?

  23. Lifelogic
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 10:25 am | Permalink

    So Phillip Lee has resigned. A great shame as unlike most MPs he does seem like a jolly good & principled chap. He has science background and qualified as medical doctor & GP and was doing a lot of good works it seems here and abroad. He was also sensibly pro-nuclear. (Though Hinkley C is clearly the wrong project).

    So why is he so deluded over the EU? Alas we seem to have a Tory party stuffed with EUphiles and EUphile group think (and climate alarmist group think too) thanks to Cameron, Major, May and the rest. He should think again withdraw his resignation and get back to doing his important jobs.

    • Theseus
      Posted June 12, 2018 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

      Democracy is all greek to him

  24. Prigger
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 10:37 am | Permalink

    I have been watching today 12th June 2018 LIVE BBC Parliament “Fake News” “Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee, House of Commons, Select Committee Rooms”
    Arran Banks has been answering questions
    I must watch. If you believe some Committees should be disbanded. This is enough to substantiate your view

  25. Prigger
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 11:21 am | Permalink

    The Brexiteers won the Referendum. No justice for complete losers is there.

  26. old salt
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 11:37 am | Permalink

    Another example of the old saying ‘nationalised and paralysed’.

  27. Eh?
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    So why is nationalisation and yet more importantly socialism an acceptable mainstream strand of thought? Our media treat a socialist like a normal politician. You should praise freedom of speech but our media should not put wacky social theories like socialism as normal as though they are keeping the balance in so doing. They don’t balance out scientific debate by putting an astro-physicist alongside and an astrologer…as if both have equal weight in getting a man on Mars

  28. ian
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 11:47 am | Permalink

    I see no difference between your party and parliament to Venezuelan, the people of the UK are the victims of an out of control leftwing multicultural ideology that stops at nothing to impose its sense of moral superiority on the people whether they like it or not, leaving the people unable to vote against it.
    MPs in parliament are on a globalist, new world order crusade and will stop at nothing to see their dreams come true.
    They want an extra 10 billion in tax next year on top of the extra 6% council tax rise and cos no Brexit.

    • Mitchel
      Posted June 14, 2018 at 10:50 am | Permalink

      They may still think they are on a”globalist,new world order crusade….” but Russia and China have killed that idea stone dead,something which Trump appreciates;now waiting for the G3 to emerge!

  29. ian
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    Like I have said before, voters deserve all they are getting and will continue to vote themselves into the poor house.

  30. ian
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

    When article 50 comes to an end on 29th of March 2019, the UK will be out of the EU altogether, all the gov is doing in negotiations with the EU is opting back into the EU after the 29th of March, so you will be out of EU completely and that means everything only to brought back in on 30th March 2019, that what these negotiations are about and the votes in parliament, they are overturning article 50 and the people referendum, if nobody did anything, article 50 would have done it job and valdated the referendum result of the people.

    • Drachma
      Posted June 12, 2018 at 8:02 pm | Permalink

      Ian..exactly..we voted to leave..we did not vote to join again in some other deal

  31. mancunius
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    Well, that’s all something we can look forward to in Britain, when the Conservative vote collapses as a result of the electorate’s disgust with a poor Tory leadership that leaves un-deselected fainthearts in place as MPs, and Comrades Corbyn and McDonnell seize power in consequence of the low turnout.

    Most government leaders before appointing ministers would ensure they were not only prepared but committed to implementing the democratic decision of the people, as clearly stated in the party’s 2017 manifesto.

    Ministers who refuse to do so, or who equivocate on the matter, should not be appointed in the first place, and once discovered should be sacked, not given the opportunity to grandstand with their resignation.

    Yet this benighted PM chose to appoint, from the Chancellor of the Exchequer downwards, known remainers who have deliberately, both openly and clandestinely hampered our exit from the EU. Clearly they have only been made ministers in order to bribe them with cash and position to guarantee their votes.

    In turn, that is the consequence of May’s tossing away the 2017 election by larding what should have been a straightforward Brexit agenda with daft socialist redistributionary policies.

  32. Alison
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

    Dear Dr R, you are very very busy, but I just wanted to say that I am very worried about this: “deal is: Govt agrees the Commons will be able to direct Brexit negotiations if no deal by November 30 this year. A veto ceded to MPs on how it proceeds from then onwards. That’s a BIG climb down.” This makes me very worried that Brexit will not be respected. Brexit is NOT an unending transition period, it is NOT customs union membership, nor imposed regulatory alignment.

  33. Freeborn John
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 4:03 pm | Permalink

    So glad today that I have never voted for the MP of the constituency I live in, I.e. Phillip Lee. I remember him running in the constuency primary as a eursceptic. I remember him writing an article in the Locla Bracknell newspaper saying he wanted to leave the EU. Then in early June 2016 he suddenly says he is undecided on whether to come our for Leave or Remain before announcing for Remain just beforehand the referndum. And now this one-time EU-sceptic wants to have a 2nd refernendum, which presumably he would no more respect the results of than the first should it go against him. He really is an example why you cannot trust MPs.

    My previous MP was Phillip Hammond, also someone I am glad I never voted for. If you want to leave the EU you just cannot vote for people like Lee and Hammond.

  34. BenM
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 4:39 pm | Permalink

    Looking at the voting going on in the HoC…it seems to me that there is a lot of horse trading going on..not our democratic wish..so mu h for taking back control if this is the way it’s going to be…

  35. ian
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

    Remain won, the gov has till November to get a deal with the EU or parliament remain MPs will take over for a soft Brexit.

  36. James Matthews
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    I realise that this is wildly off topic, but in the circumstances it seems to be justified. The government have conceded that if there is no EU trade deal by 30th November the matter will be referred to Parliament. That appears to mean two things:

    1. There is absolutely no possibility of leaving the EU without a deal and:
    2. The EU has absolutely no incentive to make a deal before 30th November.

    It amounts to pre-emptive surrender and a guarantee that we will end up with the worst of all worlds.

    I hope our host will comment urgently. Is there now any hope at all for a genuine Brexit?

    • Iain Gill
      Posted June 12, 2018 at 8:36 pm | Permalink

      like their promises of immigration in the tens of thousands brexit is something our ruling classes are happy to promise but fully intend to fail to deliver

      at least Kim Jong-un can do a trade deal with the US, something our lot cannot muster

      sadly the party system is broken, most of those selected by the parties fail to represent what the people want

      we are probably in the worst of all positions, and constantly being shot at by our own side

      never mind their perks and pensions are protected what do they care

      scandalous

  37. Eh?
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

    Justice …Minister. Eh?

  38. The Prangwizard
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 5:58 pm | Permalink

    My comment of yesterday critical of May is still waiting approval. But I was correct. You have been screwed on the EU by her and the rest of the remain traitors. Naive loses again.

    What are you going to do? Answer – NOTHING.

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted June 12, 2018 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

      Prangwizard. Yes, my comments too reflecting what you are saying here. Nobody is prepared to do anything to salvage democracy. They would rather stand in the sidelines watching the ship go down. This is the only chance we will ever get to leave the EU and by doing nothing about May MP’s have screwed it up. The referendum was won by leavers and that is what we want.

    • Helena
      Posted June 13, 2018 at 5:01 am | Permalink

      Parliament has decided. I thought was what you wanted out of Brexit?

      • Edward2
        Posted June 13, 2018 at 2:59 pm | Permalink

        That’s an odd illogical statement Helena.
        We have a referendum where the government said it was our decision and that they would implement our decision.
        We voted by a majority to leave the EU.
        If we leave, sovereignty and proper independent power will return to Parliament.
        But we now have the perverse situation where by various means some Mps are trying to stop us leaving the EU.
        For Parliament to be independent and act for the UK and have proper powers we need first to leave the EU.
        Which is what we wanted out of brexit.

  39. Iain Gill
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 7:21 pm | Permalink

    May must go

    We need someone who is genuinely behind the peoples will in number 10

    and asap before its too late

    • Lifelogic.
      Posted June 12, 2018 at 7:55 pm | Permalink

      She is wrong on every single issue, not just Brexit means sweet FA to her, but everything. Tax levels, how to run an election, the economy, HS2, gender pay drivel, Hinckley C, the green crap, the OTT employment regulations, the attack on the self employed, the Taylor report, the choice of chancellor, her attacks on Trump, the NHS, more religious schools, just every single damn thing.

      Get rid of this PC, lefty Libdim idiotic dope now.

    • Drachma
      Posted June 12, 2018 at 8:05 pm | Permalink

      Iain Gill..i am afraid that it is already too late..i smell conspiracy a the top..the arch leavers have suddenly gone very quiet

  40. Alison
    Posted June 12, 2018 at 8:34 pm | Permalink

    Brexit sold out. this need never have happened. The sell-out can still be averted, but only just. But that bastion, the ERG – somewhere I read today of a conversation with an ERG member, formerly stalwart, but now saying, give in now, fight after the surrender.

    It is never, ever anything but terrible to attempt to fight after surrender. One’s access to arms is very limited if not zero, one is regarded with contempt all around, one feels contempt for oneself, and one is imprisoned. We must not surrender. Quite clearly, that means replacing Mrs May. Hers are siren, honeyed words.

  41. Posted June 12, 2018 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    It’s very difficult to compare Venezula with the UK.

    1) Venezula is a $ zombie

    2) It suffers from Tulip disease and decided to concentrate on just oil and send it out to foreigners. They didn’t diversify.

    3) The vast amount of its debt is demonated in $’s. A foreign currency.

    If you issue your own currency but your debts are in another currency you are in trouble. It removes your currency sovereignty as you can’t make $’s from thin air.

    So they shipped oil all over the world which is okay when the oil prive is high. Made all this money in $’s and then borrowed more $’s and then the oil price collapsed.

    So what happened ?

    It didn’t have the $’s to meet its liabilities. So then started printing it’s own currency which outstripped it’s production of goods and services thus inflation.

    Could easily happen to Saudi Arabia but the Saudi’d have a very large cushion of $ reserves.

    Argentina does the same thing gets into debt in $’s and always goes the same way. If you a currency issuing nation you never borrow in someone elses currency pure and simple.

    • libertarian
      Posted June 15, 2018 at 9:59 am | Permalink

      Derek Henry

      Hold on you told us that we didn’t understand money and that its not possible for a country to go broke when it prints its own currency…..

      So what your saying is that its not possible to go broke as a country as long as you dont export anything, import anything, trade in other currencies or have anything to do with anything outside your country

      Cheers …. MMT … Got it … Thanks

  42. Russ
    Posted June 13, 2018 at 2:42 am | Permalink

    Poor North Koreans must think the world has gone nuts. North Korean TV has been saying for years the US is the most evil beast ever and now the Dear Leader is falling over himself to shake Trump’s hand. 9 times no less. What do ordinary North Koreans make of this?
    Lets not forget Trump is shaking hands with someone who was not democratically elected to represent his people. I do wish Western politicians would stop doing this. Make a nuclear deal with him but do not shake his hand.

    • Andy Pandy
      Posted June 14, 2018 at 12:40 am | Permalink

      Try not to get too upset, here’s a >>>>>hand..sniff..ker…sniff…chief.

  43. Mick
    Posted June 13, 2018 at 5:38 am | Permalink

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/973289/Labour-MP-Brexit-support-Frank-Field
    After watching the debate and checking the results I see that 5 labour mps believe in GB , Mr Mann Mr stringer Mr Campbell Mr Field Mrs Hoey, well these true patriots will hold there seats at the next GE but all the other Eu loving muppets will struggle to hold on to there’s because of there constant betrayal of the British people, we will have our say and you won’t well not in Parliament next time round so you’d better get them CVs up to date 😁😁

  44. agricola
    Posted June 13, 2018 at 6:39 am | Permalink

    Like it or not, I saw yesterdays shenanigans in Parliament as Parliament trying to thwart the will of the people as expressed in the referendum of June 2016. Dress it up as they will it amounts to defiance of the people.

    Nobody is aware of what the UKs negotiating position is, and that includes the EU. Are you any wiser, a piece clarifying the position we are now in would be most helpful. One thing is for sure, if you let this lawyer ridden anti democratic Parliament any involvement in the process, you will not achieve the clean break with the EU that we all voted for.

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    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, He graduated from Magdalen College Oxford, has a DPhil and is a fellow of All Souls College. A businessman by background, he has been a director of NM Rothschild merchant bank and chairman of a quoted industrial PLC.

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