The international rules based system

I hear a lot these days from people who say we need to defend the international rules based system. I thought it might be a good idea to see which rules people think are really important, and to check those who believe in the rules based system believe in it regardless of the decisions reached. May I suggest some good rules for the better conduct of open democracy?

1. Where a country holds a legal referendum which attracts a substantial turnout the government accepts the need to implement the wishes of the people, whether it was in favour of the result or not. If it does not wish to do this it should give power to a government that does.

2. Where a country or region within a Union or larger country has a strong body of opinion that wants to be independent, and evidence in elections that that body of opinion is prepared to vote accordingly, there should be a referendum on whether to create an independent country or not. The result should be binding. There should not normally be a repeat of such a vote for at least a generation, with all agreeing to accept the result.

3. Where a part of a country elects a large number of nationalists to elected bodies but is not granted a referendum, those elected should not be arrested for wishing to pursue an independence agenda by peaceful means.

4. Unelected international bodies have to respect the views of elected governments. They may of course insist that the government adheres to binding Treaty commitments made in the past by that country, or agree to arrangements for the country to leave the organisation if the disagreement persists. International law should not be used to prevent a fairly elected government pursuing a chosen course of policy which meets normal standards of behaviour towards others.

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82 Comments

  1. Nig l
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 5:22 am | Permalink

    A utopian dream. The reality is, as we see with our EU sell out, that once someone gets elected, they immediately ‘know better’ than the people that elected them and ‘interpret’ the voters intentions to suit their own views or political ambitions or save the voter from them selves.

    As usual fine words from you but again meaningless in reality when we cannot even rely on you to adhere to your own manifesto.

    • alan jutson
      Posted July 7, 2018 at 10:33 am | Permalink

      Nig 1

      The sad and sick situation is that Mrs may thinks the EU are our friends !

      True friendship does not require payment, or require power over another to make sure they do what they are told.

    • Hope
      Posted July 7, 2018 at 11:59 am | Permalink

      JR,
      Putin is correct with his comments about the lack of democracy in the U.K.
      May went off arse in hand to ask Merkel permission for the latest capitulation before the country or cabinet.

      This is the offer being given to the EU, undoubtedly the EU will be triumphant at this and reject this first offer as anyone would and will demand more! Cameron take two. Why wouldn’t they. It confirms Soubry’s view what May wanted was correct. This is the worst of all worlds, May is paying a £100 billion of our money for this! A vassal state, unable to be more compititive than the EU, under its control, giving away military, security for nothing. Compare with her white paper on 17/1/2017 and her words. She has colluded with remainers and used all arms of state to defy the public vote and democracy. Far worse than a betrayal. It is simply dishonest to claim this is better than no deal.

      Grayling first attempt to deceive us it is something different shows his treacherous nature. Too late your party is finished whatever the final outcome.

      Davis and Fox need to be made redundant as they do not have jobs to fulfill.

      JR, are you and colleagues going to send letters in for change of leadership or act like your cowardly ministerial leave colleagues?

      It starts to make you wonder if she wanted a coalition at the last election to help her keep the U.K. Chained to the EU. May has left it to last moment to show her true colours. The world must be horrified and bemused by her disgraceful conduct. Putin appears correct in his comments about democracy.

    • walter
      Posted July 7, 2018 at 6:08 pm | Permalink

      Manifestos are not to be stuck to. They cease to be anything meaningful once the last polling station closes,

    • Stephen Priest
      Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:06 pm | Permalink

      ” once someone gets elected, they immediately …… interpret’ the voters intentions to suit their own views or political ambitions or save the voter from them selves. ”

      Apparently Vote Leave meant giving any man the right to say he’s a woman so he can hang around inside the ladies toilet.

      Apparently Vote Leave meant ever higher taxes

      Apparently Vote Leave meant Landlords should get even fewer protections from rogue tenants who don’t pay their rents and trash properties.

      Apparently Vote Leave meant a British Prime Minister should consult with a German chancellor before she consult her own cabinet.

      Apparently Vote Leave meant Donald Trump should be insulted by a British Prime Minister.

      Apparently Vote Leave meant staying aligned to all EU rules.

      Apparently Vote Leave meant was the thick, racist, old 52% of the population who will dead soon any , so we can safely ignore them and get down with the cool kids.

  2. Mark B
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 5:40 am | Permalink

    Good morning

    The rule of law is a set and agreed written text by all those who live under it are able to live and, if transgressed upon, sanctioned. Those that make the law should be selected by those that choose to live under it. I like so many chose not to live under EU made law. I understood that the EU Commission is the sole body that can create law for the whole EU and that the parliament is just a fig leaf.

    No nation or empire can stand against the will of the people. To deny them their wish only stores up trouble further down the road. The people of our former empire wanted to be a self governing people, they became that. We never demanded that they pay us vast sums or accept onerous terms. We never sought to punish them. But neither did those who wanted freedom from Britain seek to undermine the will of their people, why should they ? These people wanted the same thing. So you can see, that a government that is truly committed is one that does not try to bend over to help those that wish to keep it a vassel state.

    • Blue and Gold
      Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:48 am | Permalink

      ‘The people of our former empire’ , ‘We never sought to punish them’. No, but we got the empire by slaughter of thousands upon thousands of people, torture, slavery and indeed were still shooting innocent, unarmed civilians dead in Ireland a mere 46 years ago!

      Also, Peter Bones, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Bernard Jenkin, Bill Cash, John Redwood, IDS, Priti Patel, Paul Dacre, Richard Desmond, Charles Moore, Quentin Letts, Tim Martin, the Brexmoaners on this website, your boys took one hell of a beating at Chequers!!!

      • Edward2
        Posted July 8, 2018 at 10:48 am | Permalink

        Dave Spart lives !

      • libertarian
        Posted July 8, 2018 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

        Blue & Gold

        Meanwhile in Europe since 1945 there have been 35 wars, insurrections, revolutions, military coups , invasions and uprisings . Less than 48 years ago one current EU country invaded another European country ( one that now no longer exists as a single country)

    • Posted July 7, 2018 at 8:09 am | Permalink

      Very well said, Mark B. Surely anyone reading it must agree with every word. It’s just plain common sense.

    • Timaction
      Posted July 7, 2018 at 8:26 am | Permalink

      Indeed. There is surely trouble ahead now that May has shown her true intentions and the “remainers” have publicly told us to “suck it up” via their msm!

    • Peter VAN LEEUWEN
      Posted July 7, 2018 at 9:02 am | Permalink

      @Mark B:
      ” I understood that the EU Commission is the sole body that can create law for the whole EU and that the parliament is just a fig leaf.”
      You’re so misinformed! Why did you never take the time to really study the workings of the present day EU!
      For a primary school level introduction google for
      Brexit: “The “Unelected Brussels Elite”?
      but after that 2 minute filmclip go a bit deeper, or better still, take a course in EU operations, . . . well, maybe it is a bit late for that now. 🙂

      When I say that most of the UK parliament is unelected, you would say that I’m misinformed (even though, literally speaking, my statement is correct). In the same manner you’re misinformed, Mark!

    • acorn
      Posted July 7, 2018 at 9:03 am | Permalink

      “parliament is just a fig leaf”. Wrong!

      How EU decisions are made. https://europa.eu/european-union/law_en

    • Hope
      Posted July 7, 2018 at 9:02 pm | Permalink

      I changed my mind over the Scottish referendum. By May’s standards and behaviour I think Scotland has every right to a second referendum or just leave because May has just made a mockery of elctorial democracy. Secondly, why would Scotland or any sane person want to be ruled by underhand lying twerps like May? They deserve independence from Westminster.

  3. Denis Cooper
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 5:56 am | Permalink

    If anybody is interested Theresa May’s current plan for our betrayal is here:

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/723460/CHEQUERS_STATEMENT_-_FINAL.PDF

    “STATEMENT FROM HM GOVERNMENT”

    While Theresa May’s rather different original plan from January 2017 is here:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-governments-negotiating-objectives-for-exiting-the-eu-pm-speech

    “The government’s negotiating objectives for exiting the EU: PM speech”

    We should have known better than to trust her then, we will be idiots to trust her now.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted July 7, 2018 at 6:10 am | Permalink

      Guess the date of this, January 17th 2017 or July 6th 2018:

      “… being out of the EU but a member of the single market would mean complying with the EU’s rules and regulations that implement those freedoms, without having a vote on what those rules and regulations are. It would mean accepting a role for the European Court of Justice that would see it still having direct legal authority in our country.

      It would to all intents and purposes mean not leaving the EU at all.”

      • Hope
        Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:25 am | Permalink

        May is underhand and a liar. May has now made the ballot box null and void and expects the taxpayers to live and work as a vassal state. No. The govt has lost its mandate and the Torrey party will be toast whenever there is another election.

        As for the Leave cowards in in the cabinet it is beyond words why they think anyone should ever vote for them. Gove is a remain Trojan horse who was used to bring down Johnson who was the leading Leave figure, so no surprise there. Gove’s white paper put out under cover of the betrayal sell out keeps EU entitlement to our fishing stances, undoubtedly he will keep the EUCAP as well.

        JR, this does not stop you and colleagues bring her govt down. Suggest you do with indecent haste. Tory publicly stated they would prefer a Labour got than leave. It also demonstrates Soubry’s recent letter about May wanting a soft Brexit was spot on and further confirms May’s collusion with remainers to stay in the EU and leave in name only. Ths is also why May sided with EU against Trump. or be damned forever.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:52 am | Permalink

        It is certainly a huge betrayal just as we expected. It will be a disaster just like the ERM that the same idiots wanted. A comple fraud from May and Hammond.

      • Fishknife
        Posted July 7, 2018 at 8:58 am | Permalink

        I had hoped for some intelligent analysis this morning, but I guess I’ll have to wait for the white paper.
        If the ECJ rules that all Europeans must wear pink spotted pajamas – OK
        If those rules apply to me in England – not OK.
        If I make Paisley Pattern Pajamas, I may not export them to the EU – OK.
        Now it’s up to Big Business to heckle Barnier and their National Governments.
        Does any of this bring back memories of Wrestling on Saturday’s ITV in the 60’s?

      • Hope
        Posted July 7, 2018 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

        May be s a liar Dennis. She has just been on TV saying it is a good Deal! Compare with what you, quoted and you cannot draw any other conclusion than she is a liar.

        Perhaps she will return to Brexit means Brexit, no deal Better than a bad deal after making sure it cannot be implemented!

        People all over England supporting the national football team today, Westminster denies an English parliament. May uses the day as an excuse to hide her betrayal of the country. Cabinet of traitors giving control of our country to a foreign body so it is a vassal state. They had no mandate and have no mandate. They have made the ballot box null and void.

  4. Oggy
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 6:08 am | Permalink

    I will not be voting again there is no point.
    Democracy in the UK died yesterday.

    • Original Richard
      Posted July 7, 2018 at 6:42 am | Permalink

      That’s just what the EU and the EU’s UK supporters want you to do!

      • Original Richard
        Posted July 7, 2018 at 8:08 am | Permalink

        You must keep voting and for the person or party that best represents your views.

        It was the fact that UKIP came first in the EU MEP elections in 2014 that forced Parliament to finally offer a long overdue EU referendum and allow a vote on whether or not we agreed for Parliament to continue giving away our democracy and sovereignty.

        Note that there may be another EU MEP election as the electoral watchdog has been handed a budget of £829,000 to pay for its “activities relating to a European Parliamentary election in 2019”,

        • libertarian
          Posted July 8, 2018 at 1:36 pm | Permalink

          Original Richard

          The problem is that there isn’t a party that represents the views of the people. Its the 21st century we have technology , we dont need “representing by anyone” we need direct democracy and a very very very small executive government . Thats it.

          I hope this is the final nail in the coffin of our corrupt , incompetent political tribes. Every single party has proved incompetent at leading and managing , they are all detached from the people they claim to represent. Its called iceberg management , its a feature of corporate life from the 20th century and still adhered to by out of touch self proclaimed “experts” “consultants” & “leadership” wannabes

          Oh and if you think UKIP are the answer, you’re asking the wrong questions

    • Caterpillar
      Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:11 am | Permalink

      Oggy, this is true UK democracy has died with the Gov’t latest. In the Brexit referendum two thirds of constituencies voted to leave (comparable to Blair’s landslide), over 50% of those who bothered to vote, voted to leave. The Government though is not bothered, its aim is to stay tied. The UK has confirmed it is no longer a democracy, its ethical position in the world is diminished and potentially unsalvagable.

    • Narrow Shoulders
      Posted July 7, 2018 at 8:30 am | Permalink

      Vote for single issue parties going forward for they truly are the disrupters

  5. Javelin
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 6:11 am | Permalink

    Anybody who believes the Conservatives are going to win the next election has great career writing children’s stories ahead of them.

    • Narrow Shoulders
      Posted July 7, 2018 at 8:31 am | Permalink

      I hope spoiled ballot papers wins in every constituency

    • Lifelogic
      Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:33 pm | Permalink

      The Tories will probably win the next election, but surely not under the appalling T May and P Hammond. Mainly as no one sensible wants Corbyn and the SNP anywhere near power.

      • libertarian
        Posted July 8, 2018 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

        LL

        The trouble is the Tories have relied on this for years. They have completely ignored their own followers and activists . Everything is centrally controlled by a core of out of touch oligarchs . They believe they dont have to attract their core vote as we are all too terrified of someone like Corbyn being elected.

        Well I’m voting for Jezza, for the laughs. I want to see how he stays in the EU whilst being vehemently anti EU and totally unable to nationalise anything. Yes he will crash the country , but sadly the tories are doing the same already but just in slow motion.

  6. jerry
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 6:20 am | Permalink

    1/. Indeed but the referenda MUST then ask or give detailed questions and/or options, otherwise simplistic yes/no questions should be for guidance only. There is no point in just asking if people want wine or beer with their meal, after all there are many types of wine and even more styles of beer, the chances are the persona ordering will choose their own favourite of either, not the majority wish

    2/. The first part of your paragraph contradicts with the second, the problem being significant changes since the last referenda which can be measured in months never mind generations. Had Yorkshire, for example, been asked, the majority might well have wanted to remain a part of the UK in 1979, 5 years later I bet more than a few were dreaming about independence…

    3/. Indeed, but that would have to apply to all elected office, from devolved governments, to regional Mayors, to Local Councils that have been legally elected by the popular vote, not just ‘nationalists’, unless your intent is to encourage claims for the the latter to increase. Also did you mean peaceful or legal? If the former, had your ideas been the rule back in the 1980s, the UK government would not have been able to disband the GLC, or do battle with the LLC as they did.

    • libertarian
      Posted July 8, 2018 at 1:52 pm | Permalink

      Jerry

      You can’t do that with a referendum as it means nothing will ever change

      Think about it if the questions were these in the next referendum

      1) Re join the EEA/EFTA
      2) Re Join just the EFTA
      3) Rejoin just the EEA
      4) Join a Norway option
      5) Join a Canada option
      6) Stay out

      Remain could never win as the vote would always be split and that would be the problem for all referenda, they would always heavily weight towards the status quo

      Switzerland seem to manage their country incredibly well with referendums

      One of the last Swiss referendums staged in 2017 was

      The abolition of Radio and TV licence Fees

      Question
      Should the licence fee be abolished

      1) Yes
      2) No

      They arrived at a decision supported by 71.6%

      What decision would they have made do you think if the questions had been these

      Should we abolish TV and Licence Fees

      1) Abolition TV but not radio
      2) Aboltion Radio but not TV
      3) Abolition of both
      4) make fees optional
      5) abolish all fees

      • jerry
        Posted July 8, 2018 at 9:05 pm | Permalink

        @libertarian; Nonsense, by your logic all parliamentary elections should only be between two parties, being in effect a simple yes/no question, Candidate A or Candidate B…

        Take your example referendum on Radio/TV Reception Licence Fees, but 1’ll add some (example) voting figures to them;

        Question
        Should the licence fee be abolished

        1) Yes (5,964,136)
        2) No (2,054,983)

        Options
        1) Abolition TV but not radio (1,378,936)
        2) Abolition Radio but not TV (2,123,975)
        3) Abolition of both (1,765.689)
        4) make fees optional (5,765)
        5) abolish all fees (874,096)

        The result is as clear as any multi party parliamentary constituency election result, as it should be, both rely on simply majorities. A majority having voted “Yes” to the main question, a majority have then voted for Option 2).

        RESULT; The radio reception licence is scrapped but the TV reception licence is kept, whilst fees for subscription based stations & channels remain legal (which I take as being option 5) – government have been instructed.

        If including Options on the ballot paper becomes to complicated, perhaps because there are multiple conflicting options dependant on whether a Yes or No result is returned for the main question, then that is when a second referenda would need to be held.

        • libertarian
          Posted July 11, 2018 at 9:42 pm | Permalink

          Jerry

          An election isn’t a referendum so bad analogy

          In your referendum analogy you prove my point

          The winner of your poll was to end radio & keep TV(2) BUT the voters for 3,4,5 combined meant the ending of both !!!

          Do you see multiple questions never work in a referendum

          By the the way the REAL result by 71.6% was to KEEP both licence fees

          • jerry
            Posted July 12, 2018 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

            @Walter; “BUT the voters for 3,4,5 combined meant the ending of both”

            By that logic we should also then count all those who either did not vote or who spoilt their ballot papers -especially the spoilt papers, a valid ways of casting an opinion after all- and then lump them together, meaning in 2016 (according to your logic) the Brexit referenda result should have been called for Remain, as more people did not directly vote for Brexit. Clearly an absurd way of counting the result!

            A referenda is not counted in a proportional way, a simple majority is all that is needed, thus it doesn’t matter how many options are given, nor what the total number of votes for each option are. A referenda is like catching a bus, you can not be on both a No.3 bus travelling north and No.7 bus travelling south at the same time, only one or the other.

  7. jerry
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 6:26 am | Permalink

    Off topic, I note that the Cabinet has opened a Fudge Shop, just in time for the summer recesses, a Mr Barnier being its first customer….

    • Know-Dice
      Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:39 am | Permalink

      Eggsellent Jerry – good post 🙂

  8. Ian wragg
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 6:39 am | Permalink

    Democracy is Dead. Last night it became clear that votes count for nothing. The mealy mouthed May has slowly choreographed the negotiations to completely ignore the referendum result.
    Still you continue to support someone who has lied at every juncture.
    Just what did she say to the boss of Nissan last year which made him so happy.
    Anger doesn’t even scratch the surface as to how I feel.
    You deserve to be out of government for generations.

    • Ian wragg
      Posted July 7, 2018 at 6:47 am | Permalink

      So as we are not leaving the EU I assume we won’t have to pay the £40billion divorce fee.
      After all we are on a transition to nowhere.

    • Henry Rogers
      Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:03 am | Permalink

      If things rest here then the Conservative Party will only have itself to blame for its collapse. If the outcome is the fall of the present Administration and its replacement by left wing extremists, then the fate of the Conservative Party would be the least of all our worries.

    • Nig l
      Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:24 am | Permalink

      Yes and it is interesting JR studiously avoided commenting on one of the most momentous decisions taken for decades. Obviously time is needed to digest but red lines are a joke.

      I see Theresa May apparently is not ‘technically’ breaching hers. More sophistry on the head of a pin and we are being again treated as mugs.

      If UKIP could get their act together my membership application would be in on Monday morning.

    • A different Simon
      Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:29 am | Permalink

      She was a spineless home secretary too – a real “safe pair of hands” .

      Did not help the victims of child sexual abuse bring their violators to justice .

      By all accounts I’ve read her father was a good man and notable too .

      How sad that his daughter should be vulgarly ambitious and worse ; utterly heartless .

    • Narrow Shoulders
      Posted July 7, 2018 at 8:33 am | Permalink

      If votes count for nothing spoil your paper to register that.

    • Chris
      Posted July 7, 2018 at 11:21 am | Permalink

      Yes, Ian. Our politicians have delivered a very clear message to us, the voters, and have demonstrated their utter contempt for democracy. What a legacy Theresa May has given to the country and to the Conservative Party. History will not judge her kindly nor the MPs complicit in this treachery, and that includes the ones who stood idly by.

    • Helen Smith
      Posted July 7, 2018 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

      They will be, I will do my part to ensure that

  9. Sir Joe Soap
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 6:49 am | Permalink

    Guardian, 11 May 2016:

    Brandishing a Cornish pasty (rather ironically, one of more than 60 British food and drink products that have protected geographical status under EU law, meaning they cannot be ripped off by imitations made elsewhere), Johnson said it was “absolutely crazy that the EU is telling us how powerful our vacuum cleaners have got to be, what shape our bananas have got to be, and all that kind of thing”.

  10. Fedupsoutherner
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 6:57 am | Permalink

    Never before has there been a bigger betrayal of the people. Angry doesn’t even begin to sum up how I feel. Staunch Conservative supporters are never voting Tory again. Not only are we not leaving the EU but Mrs Mays actions have left the door wide open for a Labour government. In one swoop your party has destroyed any hope for a successful nation. I have never heard so many blatant Li’s from a politician in my life and that is saying something. She has taught us never to trust the political elite again. Why didn’t the public listen to Farage and vote UKIP? I hope they have learned their lesson. He’s not so stupid after all.

  11. Tony Henry
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:00 am | Permalink

    Disgusted. I reluctantly trusted Treason May at the start thinking she might surprise us with a hidden steel.

    Instead after a string of concessions she has humiliatingly sold us out. This is NOT what we voted for. Cheated and deceived.

    I won’t vote again in any election. Taxes up for the rest of us but a £39,000,000,000.00 present for a bunch of foreign, unelected gangsters running a protection racket.

    I feel such a disconnect with government in this country. The mother of parliaments has jist become Brussel’s whore.

  12. Fedupsoutherner
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:00 am | Permalink

    How about you John? Let down by your own leader. How are you feeling after listening and being taken in by the garbage you have heard or are you proud what what your party has done?

  13. Brian Tomkinson
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:04 am | Permalink

    As I asked yesterday, we now know that Mrs May did mislead Parliament at PMQs this week. Will she forced to apologise to Parliament for so doing?….. Don’t think so.
    There must be at least 17.4 million people who now realise that politicians cannot be trusted and will never vote for the Conservative party ever again. Our democracy has been abused and debased. Who knows what the ultimate consequences will be?

  14. formula57
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:04 am | Permalink

    I recently repudiated an invitation to participate in VAT fraud (by paying cash, unrecorded) but perhaps that was wrong of me as the worth of the social contract in the UK has been very substantially diminished by the treacherous May government.

  15. Iain Moore
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:06 am | Permalink

    Any threat of a Corbyn Government has just been negated by May’s capitulation. I feel the same anger about May as I did about Major.

  16. JoolsB
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:07 am | Permalink

    Let’s hope there are enough backbenchers with the guts to vote this down. Obviously the lure of their cabinet posts and ministerial cars proved too much for all those gutless Brexiteers in the cabinet. They and May in particular have just lost the Conservatives the next election and many to come I suspect.

  17. DUNCAN
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:08 am | Permalink

    A most pathetic offering from a once respected politician. Rather than attack this grotesque excuse for a PM the blog’s author makes a rather sad and indeed blatant attempt at trying to deflect attention away from the treachery of his leader and of his party

    Politics isn’t about rules Mr Redwood, it’s about the integrity, honesty and indeed the morality of our elected politicians. It’s about human beings doing the right thing and being seen to do the right thing. What we have seen is plainly wrong and we all know it is plainly wrong. It is an abuse of our trust and an abuse of power by an unaccountable political class

    Yes, call me naive but we put our faith in the British political class and we’ve been played, deceived, taken for granted and ultimately betrayed

    This is a victory for an autocratic political class over democracy.

    17.5m voted Leave. One can only hope that a party rises up and confronts the institutional arrogance, treachery and dictatorial nature of the duopoly enjoyed by the Tories and Marxist Labour

    You Sir, are as much to blame for what has happened as is the vile May. You voted for this person to lead our party which begs only one question, why?

  18. Mick
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:09 am | Permalink

    So May and her handful of followers have gone against the 17.4 million , we voted OUT with no strings or a back door re-entry into the Eu but May and her followers think she can overturn the referendum result, what is needed is a mass demonstration by the 17.4 million to show May and her cabinet that we will not stand for this betrayal of the British people, we will not be ruled by Brussels or any other country , so if she thinks she can sign off our sovereignty to foreigners then think again every dog as it’s day and ours will be the next GE when we will put in power people that will carry out our wishes

  19. Tabulazero
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:17 am | Permalink

    No mention of the Cabinet going for the softest of Brexit ? How strange….

  20. fedupsoutherner
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:21 am | Permalink

    If we were allowed to print what we are really feeling John, it would take you longer than a day to edit the expletives from this post today. I note the BBC are full of glee this morning thinking that those who lost the vote have won when really the country has lost so much.

  21. mickc
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:29 am | Permalink

    The future will indeed be “interesting times”. I wonder if political violence will occur in the UK mainland.

  22. Sir Joe Soap
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:30 am | Permalink

    Collecting customs duties differentially for other third-country imports for UK-consumed and EU-consumed product will be extremely difficult. The EU tariff rate will end up having to follow the item through the system until consumption before repayment, making third country items as expensive as they are currently, hence unable to compete with EU product in the UK. Furthermore, the EU will have the right to INCREASE import duty rates on products used mainly in the UK, which will effectively scupper any trade deals whereby other third countries (particularly third world countries) might see themselves selling us agri-products at a fraction of the EU price regime.

  23. Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:31 am | Permalink

    You address important principles, JR. Well said. Alas it seems that far too many people need reminding of these.
    Best wishes, the Brexit Facts4EU.Org team
    http://facts4eu.org/news.shtml

  24. Edward2
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:31 am | Permalink

    I live in hope that the weak offer of our Government, to be put to the EU, will be quickly rejected like all the previous ones have been.
    If it is the chances of actually ending up as an independent nation will increase.
    Please Mr Barnier reject this awful proposal.

  25. Roy Grainger
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:36 am | Permalink

    Seems the agreed Conservative goal is to reconstruct all the features of the EU (including free movement if you look at the details) but without being able to influence any of the EU rules we have to follow at all. Odd idea.

  26. Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:45 am | Permalink

    Yes but you would need rules to stop unscrupulous politicos from abusing referendums by telling Parliament they were advisory only and by inferring into a binary result eg to leave EU all manner of detail that was never asked eg leaving the EEA as well, then cov ering the whole thing in a veil called “Will of the People”.

  27. agricola
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:46 am | Permalink

    Points commented upon.
    1.
    Agreed.
    2.
    Agreed, witness Scotland and Catalonia. getting it right and getting it wrong.
    3.
    Agreed.
    4.
    Agreed. Aimed no doubt at the EU who have no respect for national governments.

    Now we come to “Our Brexit deal for Britain” 7th July signed T may. There are a number of points requiring explanation and clarification. No doubt written by civil servants who prefer just the opposite.
    4.
    What exactly is a “new business friendly customs model” Does it mean big business or all business. Is it to cover goods and services. It says it offers freedom to strike new trade deals around the World. This latter point should not be in question, at no point should it be anything to do with the EU where we trade or how we trade.
    5.
    It is normal in trade to supply what the customer asks for. It would not be normal for any requirements the EU may have to apply to any other customer we may have around the World. If EU/UK trade is to be the subject of a new free trade treaty/agreement, then you do not need a “new business friendly customs model” as in (4).
    7.
    In a sovereign country Parliament makes the rules and regulations. It does not require a lock unless this point leaves the door open for the EU to continue to pour it’s rules over our border.
    9.
    The ECJ should have no jurisdiction whatever within the UK border both land and maritime.

    I suspect that the EU is not going to like this unless it sees it as a negotiating position on which to effect change. This would make it even less acceptable to the 17.4 million who voted Brexit. Prepare for WTO rules as of 29th March 2019.

  28. Anonymous
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:47 am | Permalink

    Tory voters simply won’t vote anymore.

    Keeping Corbyn out simply isn’t reason enough because he won’t be running our country either.

    We can at least thank Brexit for proving that democracy is dead in Britain.

    Travellers have the right idea about the levels of respect to be shown to the establishment and the rule of law. They certainly get treated with more respect than we do.

  29. Know-Dice
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:48 am | Permalink

    I’m sorry Mr Redwood, totally ignoring today’s topic…

    I voted Leave in the knowledge that this would cause short term Pain, but long term Gain.

    Mrs May and Hammond seem to be intent on causing the UK pain for the foreseeable future and beyond.

    I expect a total disentanglement from the EU and nothing less, you Mr Redwood and your colleagues that wish us to leave the EU must act NOW and replace our current Prime Minister.

    Bear in mind that the EU and the EU 27 will reject her current proposal and Mrs May response will be to move even further away from her very blurred Red Lines and give more away – Just stop it now!!!

  30. DaveM
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:52 am | Permalink

    I could go on for ages about how International Rules-Based systems are a liberalist invention intended to curtail the emergence of state-based hegemony and that they have been exploited by national govts to further their own interests. The NSS 2015 explicitly describes how the U.K. govt intends to do this!

    However, with reference to your second paragraph; there is substantial evidence that England wants some form of independence from the U.K. govt and yet you refuse to even hold a referendum on this matter. The U.K. govt is basically holding England captive. The one time the English people spoke with a loud voice, ie 2016, they gave an answer the govt didn’t want to hear and it has basically been ignored, as became apparent yesterday. Anyone who genuinely believes the U.K. should be leaving the EU in totality and who believes England is a nation with a right to a fair and equal voice should stand up for their principles now. And anyone falling into that category who keeps quiet for whatever reason is a disgrace and should find themselves unable to sleep at night.

  31. Turboterrier.
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 7:58 am | Permalink

    I just hope and pray that these cabinet brexiteers do not add salt o injury by treating us as morons and stand for the leadership of the party. They by their actions have shown their true mettle.

    Sad for this country but the only man who seemed to see the downhill slide to where we have arrived since the referendum is Nigel Farage.

    Unless there is an uprising of sorts from within the party then we will struggle to keep our faithful supporters with this kick in the teeth supplied by May and her cohorts. On this showing we will be out of power for decades.

  32. Andy
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 8:20 am | Permalink

    1 Nobody is stopping you implementing the result of the referendum. The trouble is that you can’t. If you could deliver all the golden unicorns that Vote Leave promises I’m sure you would. You can’t because the unicorns do not exist. It was lies. So instead the Tory party has filled the void by yelling at each other. You are putting party before country and it is really rather pathetic.

    2 This is harder than it looks because who determines what constitutes a region? Some would argue that Ireland constitutes a region. It would certainly vote to be a united country. But what about Northern Ireland? It’s not even existed for 100 years and as entirely a political construct. Within it there is, probably, still a small majority in favour of remaining in the UK. But there won’t be for much longer. Should there be a referendum. Scotland voted to stay in the UK, with one of the main reasons being that the UK was in the EU. England has now voted to Leave the EU, against Scotland’s wishes so another referendum is fair game.

    3 The key part is peaceful means. Many nationalists (but by no means all) are the opposite of peaceful.

    4 Agreed and none is.

  33. BOF
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 8:31 am | Permalink

    The only rule of the EU is to crush dissent. Last night it did so via the authority of the Westminster Cabinet. The excellent John Longworth has been the first to accurately sum up yesterdays debacle, which of course has been two years in the making.

    There are no longer Brexit members of the Cabinet, they are all Remainers now. Last night spelt the death of democracy in the United Kingdom.

  34. Posted July 7, 2018 at 8:50 am | Permalink

    The only way to refocus the party is

    a) Cancel subsciptions

    b) Cancel membership

    Which seems to be the theme in the comments sections in the Mail, Telegraph, Conservative Home, Guido.

    No members and no money will clearly let the party know what the election is going to look like. Those remainer MP’s that call themselves conservatives then might realise what they have done.

    • libertarian
      Posted July 11, 2018 at 9:44 pm | Permalink

      Derek Henry

      But but but the Tory party has been haemorrhaging members for years down from 2 million to less than 70,000 already AND the hierarchy haven’t taken any notice at all. The Tories are not remotely interested in their members and couldn’t care less

  35. Timaction
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 8:50 am | Permalink

    Well to describe how I feel today about your Government would not pass your scrutiny. I and millions like me no longer consider your Government in charge and I will decide what rules/laws I will agree to or not. Your Government is no longer relevant. Just as your Government has ignored the express wishes of the 17.4 million in a referendum who voted to leave NOT REMAIN IN THE SINGLE MARKET AND ITS RULES FOREVER WITHOUT ANY SAY! Your Government is a National disgrace.

  36. Kenneth
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 9:30 am | Permalink

    “International Law” is nonsense imho.

    What we have are a series of treaties between governments.

    Where a popular vote contradicts a treaty, the government should withdraw from it or renegotiate it in order to bring it in line with the democratic opinion.

    Sadly, our government is failing in this regard. A lame duck PM has been instrumental in badly damaging the Conservative Party and the country by supporting ant- democratic forces.

    Shame on her

  37. Alison
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    Yes (and a reassuring post, perhaps one to give me a ray of hope). Two points:
    1) What happens when a government, indeed almost a country’s whole parliament, initially mouths worthy statements about respecting the result of a referendum, but gradually gradually shifts further and further away to a point where its members mouth respect of the result but actually action the opposite? Answer: the populace loses faith in the democratic structures of the country. That is a very unhealthy situation. Arising because of undemocratic behaviour (or worse). Consequences: if we are lucky, crumbling of existing political parties, formation of new ones along different axes; if we are less lucky, civil unrest, mis-use of public bodies (eg police, judiciary … people being accused, arrested, unfair trials, etc … things we have perhaps seen in the last few years).

    (Interesting discussion on exactly this with Kate McCann, Portillo on Andrew Neil’s This Week late on Thurs evening, 5 July).

    I think we should look more closely at how Switzerland implements its referenda results.

    2) There is evidence in the public domain that the EU is planning to “tackle” ‘populism’ and ‘fake news’ahead of the 2019 EU Parliament elections. However, ‘fake news’ isn’t always fake .. it’s just news that some sides don’t like. I always remember that in the EU one is not allowed to keep views that the EU doesn’t like (as per Ireland, Greece et al)

  38. Arthur Wrightiss
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 10:30 am | Permalink

    Over 50 years of voting Conservative in all national and local elections has now regretfully come to an end.
    Apparently Brexit doesn’t mean Brexit. Control of our borders doesn’t quite mean that anymore. Cabinet members who vocally supported the majority Leave vote are more interested in retaining their ministerial cars than standing up for democracy and the Conservative Party Manifesto.
    A very sad day.

  39. GilesB
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 10:57 am | Permalink

    2. A change in the boundaries of a state – which is what secession/independence entails – requires sufficient support of everyone in the original state, not just in the leaving region. Otherwise rich enclaves like Kensington and Chelsea will also demand independence.

    The UK is sovereign and so can vote to leave the EU.

    Scotland is not sovereign. I think that the majority of UK voters want Scotland to stay in the UK. Scotland should not decide for itself.

    NI is not sovereign. But I think that the majority of UK voters would support NI leaving for a united Ireland, IF that was supported by a majority of NI voters.

  40. stred
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    The leader of the Catalan party for Independence, who had the idea of calling a referendum, is in Germany awaiting extradition under the EAW to join his colleagues in a Spanish prison. Mrs May supports the Madrid government. She supports the EAW and meets other politicians in the Club of Madrid. The woman is a supporter of international government and a fraud.

  41. LukeM
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 12:13 pm | Permalink

    As regards the new Common Rulebook for The new UK EU Goods trade proposed ..well it has already been said from Brussels that there is only one rule book that matters and that is the EU rule book..so wondet where we go from here?

  42. ian
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

    At least some European people in their countries have taken action and form new parties to take on the elite politicians in their own countries, against the EU.
    I see no action at all from people in England to do anything at all accept moan all the time about their parties and the people they have elected to rule over them.

    At least the people in Europe have some intelligence.

  43. margaret
    Posted July 7, 2018 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

    Those points are happening with grumblings around.( more or less)

  44. David L
    Posted July 8, 2018 at 7:18 am | Permalink

    The success of the England football team is a Godsend to the Government, giving a positive feel to the populace that is diverting attention from what’s going on in high places. Did you or any of your fellow Leave MP colleagues envisage this Brexit situation arising? I just get cynical about anyone who tells me anything in life is simple and straightforward. The world is so complex, and with so many human and natural processes not respecting national boundaries ,that some of the petty nationalism expressed by some posters strikes me as rather sad.

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, He graduated from Magdalen College Oxford, has a DPhil and is a fellow of All Souls College. A businessman by background, he has been a director of NM Rothschild merchant bank and chairman of a quoted industrial PLC.

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