Ministers decide, civil servants advise

David Davis’s letter raised important issues about the process of government. We learned from the background to it  that the Secretary of State for Brexit who should be the principal adviser of the PM on these matters, and the main negotiator under the PM, was often sidelined by the official civil service. Of course this could only happen if No 10 let it happen, whether by design or by misunderstanding. It nonetheless raises crucial issues about how democratic government is functioning at an important time for our country.

There appears to have been a tough approach taken towards much of the Cabinet over the production of the White Paper. Apparently many Ministers saw the draft late, and were given little time to respond. On a major policy document like this, published two years after the first demand for it, you would expect all relevant Ministers to be fully engaged through correspondence, sharing drafts, and through Cabinet committees where necessary. At its best UK government is very good at this, with several drafts refining views as Ministers seek improvement, attend to detail, or find compromises.

There needs to be trust between all Ministers and senior officials. They need to share their work in private with each other. Officials are welcome to their  views and to put in suggestions, but in the end Ministers have to decide, to approve the lines and sign off the final text. Clearly this did  not happen with the Chequers Statement and White Paper, which is why it triggered several resignations of Cabinet Ministers, junior Ministers,  and Parliamentary Private secretaries. It also led to the resignation of   two Vice Chairmen of the Conservative party who would of course be outside the formation of a collective view on this or any other government matter, but need to sell the policy. Their refusal to do so reflects the fact that the more politically minded members of the Cabinet did not have enough chance or enough support to get the strategy amended to one which could gain more popularity.

The lack of trust  by some Ministers is part of a much wider distrust between public and officials on the mighty topic of the EU. Viewed from the outside to many members of the public  it looks as if a large  number of officials voted remain, think the voters were wrong to vote Leave, and are doing their best to re run Project Fear in various guises. I of course appreciate there are many good officials who do not let their personal political views influence their work, and some officials who did vote Leave who therefore support the government policy of leaving willingly. What is undeniable is the civil service as a whole have taken to the task of trying to find as many  difficulties as possible that they think might delay or impede Brexit, and have been very shy about finding and tackling all the opportunities that a clean Brexit brings.

Of course where something needs fixing by March 2019 to make sure things work as planned, the civil service are right to flag that up. They should also flag up the remedies as well as the problems. They also need to help Ministers knock back the self serving and factually incorrect fears that some Remain oriented groups and businesses are putting forward.

I trust  now Cabinet has reaffirmed its wish to get on with the WTO Global UK option there will  be strong co-operation to do so. I would also like to see good news policies covering a new migration policy, a new farming policy, ways of spending the money we will free if we simply leave in March 2019, and what we should do with all the customs revenue if we end up on WTO terms. The civil service at its best is balanced in its judgement of risks and opportunities, and keen to implement the government’s policy. The government’s policy as specified in 2017 was to leave the EU. The civil service have helped talk the remaining Ministers into a policy which does not amount to leaving the EU. The  Ministers who relied on this bad advice have now placed themselves in a difficult position, where they need to change their policy as soon as possible so we can conduct good and strong negotiations for the UK.

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316 Comments

  1. Stred
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:25 am | Permalink

    The BBC may as well be part of the civil service. They have bumped David Davis off Marr to allow May to tell everyone that it is her capitulation or no Brexit. ie No Brexit Means No Brexit.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:07 am | Permalink

      Indeed the BBC bias is appalling. The ratio is at best 4:1 pro remain on BBC political or news programmes. Often they can hardly get a word out before the other four endlessly interrupt them on discussion programmes.

      Analysis of the News-Watch research for the Civitas report found that out of 4,275 guests talking about the EU on BBC Radio 4’s flagship Today programme between 2005 and 2015, only 132, equivalent to 3.2%, were supporters of the UK’s withdrawal from the EU.

      Almost every single BBC presenter is a big government, pro EU, pro climate alarmism, PC, lefty, art graduate with zero understanding of maths, science, engineering, business or real economics. Andrew Neil perhaps the sole exception but we see him less and less now.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:14 am | Permalink

        May was appalling on Marr just now. Totally refusing to answer questions (particularly the one about when the Common Rule Book scam was invented or reviled to David Davis). Just churning out the usual set phrases & drivel about maintaining high standards.

        Marr as usual was pathetically wet and let her get away with it.

        When I hear May I always expect her to start by saying “Now children sit down, be quiet & listen very carefully and I will explain things to you very slowly, as you are not quite as clever as me”.

      • Stephen Priest
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 10:35 am | Permalink

        Lifelogic: “Indeed the BBC bias is appalling”

        Prime example: Vicky Young on Five Live last week:

        ” Michel Barnier is understandably frustrated …..”

        • jerry
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 2:39 pm | Permalink

          @Stephen Priest; Except reporting a fact is not being bias, NOT reporting a fact does = the very real bias though.

          • libertarian
            Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:08 pm | Permalink

            Jeremiah

            Nope wrong

            ” Michael Barnier is frustrated” Is a fact

            “Michael Barnier is UNDERSTANDABLY frustrated” Is a tacit agreement and therefore biased

          • jerry
            Posted July 16, 2018 at 6:03 am | Permalink

            @Libby; Just as Brexiteers ‘are UNDERSTANDABLY frustrated’ (or words to that effect) you mean, thus proving that (on your logic) not only are the BBC biased but the eurosceptic media and press, especially the press, there being far more eurosceptic or at least euro-hostile press in the UK than europhile. Nice own goal their Walter – dream on!

          • libertarian
            Posted July 16, 2018 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

            Jeremiah

            Blimey you really have been living in a cave these last 50 years… YES of course the press and media are biased, thats the WHOLE point, blimey you are dumb sometimes … Own goal indeed.

          • jerry
            Posted July 17, 2018 at 7:54 am | Permalink

            @Libby; Once again you miss the point, wilfully perhaps, I must ponder.

            You need to learn the difference between reporting a fact and reporting an opinion, they are not the same, how ever much the print/web media and those on both the political extremes wish them to be – yet Walter expect us to believe s/he owns an Ofcom licensed radio station, dream on, if s/he does s/he most certainly doesn’t manage it…

            I do not like how the BBC are reporting President Trump, Jeremy Corbyn or indeed the EU/Brexit but everything they broadcast is a fact, selective perhaps, the same can not be said about the UK print media.

          • libertarian
            Posted July 18, 2018 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

            Jeremiah

            oh you silly boy

            You, too scared to even admit what ( if anything) you do for a living

            Yes I’m afraid no matter how much it irks you I do own an FM licensed community radio station. Yes I do know the impartiality rules and yes we do implement them on our station. However people are people and they display their bias, the print press are famously biased which was actually my point but as always in your haste to argue you completely missed the obvious FACT

            You are such a BBC fan boy that you go into meltdown when anyone criticises them. This will make you even more mad, one of my senior people on the radio station works full time for the BBC , he’s a raving lefty and I’m repeatedly having to tell him off about on air “unconscious” bias

            Oh and dont pompously lecture me about the difference between an opinion and a fact as that was also entirely the point you got wrong in the first place

          • jerry
            Posted July 20, 2018 at 8:41 am | Permalink

            @Liiby,; I do own an FM licensed community radio station.”

            Then you will have no problem publishing your Ofcom community radio licence number, will you…? The owner of my local community station does so without problem.

            I am not a BBC fan, I am a fan of unbiased PSB , I have stated many time that the BBC could be privatised as long as the whole industry funds and maintained a meaningful PSB sector, either as a dedicated channel or as party of their prime-time broadcasting. The only ‘fan club’ on this site appears to be for a fully dumbed down commercial broadcasting industry.

            If the BBC is biased in the way you claim how come it receives complaints from both the political left and right about the very same content.

            “I’m repeatedly having to tell him off about on air “unconscious” bias”

            In your opinion of course, has Ofcom ever received a single complaint for bias?

            “Oh and dont pompously lecture me about the difference between an opinion and a fact as that was also entirely the point you got wrong in the first place”

            That silly comment just proves your own bias, never mind classlessness of journalism practice and law. Walter, facts are never bias, only opinion can be biased. We might not like the facts but they are never bias.

          • libertarian
            Posted July 21, 2018 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

            Jerry

            “Then you will have no problem publishing your Ofcom community radio licence number, will you…?”

            Let me have your full name and email address and I’ll email it to you.

      • jerry
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

        @LL; “research for the Civitas report found that out of 4,275 guests talking about the EU on BBC Radio 4’s flagship Today programme between 2005 and 2015, only 132, equivalent to 3.2%, were supporters of the UK’s withdrawal from the EU.”

        Yet those wanting Brexit won the referenda the following year, 2016. So either something was wrong with the research methodology or the majority no longer gain their news and opinion via the BBC. My betting is on the latter, with free-to-view satellite TV and the internet it is obvious that all the traditional news and opinion making media outlets are going to have far less influence than they did 10 and more years ago.

        Nice rant though!

        • Edward2
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:56 pm | Permalink

          Just think what influence that bias created.
          Instead of 52 48 it could have been 60 40 if voters had listened to a balanced debate.

          • jerry
            Posted July 16, 2018 at 6:11 am | Permalink

            @Edward2; Indeed less bias from the europhobic press might well have given a 60/40 win to Remain if voters had listened to a balanced debate…

            The broadcast media industry have a LEGAL duty to provide unbiased coverage, unlike the print media. If you had evidence, not just a wish-list, of bias by the BBC (or any UK broadcaster) why did you not submit a complaint, perhaps even ask the police to investigate the breach in election law?

          • Edward2
            Posted July 16, 2018 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

            Some good evidence is above.
            Lifelogic post July 15th 6.07am

          • jerry
            Posted July 17, 2018 at 11:19 am | Permalink

            @Edward2; Then he needs to stop positing here and send his ‘evidence’ to the relevant authority/police. Why do you think he, or someone else, appear not have done so, but if they have it has never lead to censure or prosecution?

        • Jagman84
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

          The BBC’s target audience is currently the politicians in the House Of Commons. They are desperately trying to generate a majority to vote for May’s rotten deal. Since the referendum, BRINO has been their ambition for the UK.

          • libertarian
            Posted July 18, 2018 at 8:24 pm | Permalink

            Jeremiah

            Greg Dyke and others have admitted there is a slight left wing bias amongst BBC people Research also confirmed this back in 2013

            https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/bbc/10235967/BBC-is-biased-toward-the-left-study-finds.html

            Me, I couldn’t care less to be honest, I dont watch the BBC their programmes for the most part are poor these days . Like most broadcast media they’ve been overtaken by technology . Internet radio and Streaming TV etc

            Theres no point complaining to Ofcom they’re a branch of the BBC , they have almost given up investigating anything if the rise in the number of pirate broadcasters is anything to go by.

          • jerry
            Posted July 20, 2018 at 8:48 am | Permalink

            @Libby; “Greg Dyke and others have admitted there is a slight left wing bias amongst BBC people”

            Oh for goodness sake, Greg Dyke (and perhaps the others) have not been employed by the BBC since at least 2004 – the BBC has undergone many changed since then, back in 2004 the whole country had a left wing bias, including the electorate – again was it bias or just the BBC reflecting the public opinion.

            The BBC and most commercial radio and TV have been overtaken not by technology but over commercialisation, the lowest common is all that masters now, who cares about quality just so long as the ratings figures are high.

          • libertarian
            Posted July 20, 2018 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

            Jerry

            The Telegraph study was from 2013

            Roger Mosey, former head of BBC TV news, has published a book giving chapter and verse on the Corporation’s liberal bias ( 2015)

            Oh and today

            The UK is the biggest exporter of books in the world. Most go to non-EU countries. Industry announces record sales of £5.7 billion. BBC headline: “Brexit threat to record exports”.

            As I say , I dont really care because I dont watch it, its rubbish

          • jerry
            Posted July 20, 2018 at 9:08 pm | Permalink

            @Libby; You still do not seem to understand the difference between reporting ones own “facts” and reporting someone else’s.

            The BBC did not say “Brexit threat to record exports”, the Publishers Association did, the BBC merely reported them.

            There was no more bias from the BBC above than if the ‘New European’ were to report our host has told a pro-Brexit group; ‘Brexit will be a Grand Success’, readers to that newspaper might not like what our host said, nor perhaps that it has been reported, but few if any would accuse the publisher of bias!

            As for what Greg Dyke and Roger Mosey say, they are welcome to their opinions, but if it is anything more than just their opinions on current standards then I find both very strange admissions, why would either admit to allowing such bias on their watch!

    • Peter
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:52 am | Permalink

      We have to fight against May. If she is not toppled for whatever reason then all the legislation she tries to get through so that it is impossible for her to govern.

      • Peter
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:49 am | Permalink

        Vote against all the legislation she tries to get through so that it is impossible for her to govern.

        • Hope
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

          Correct and the budget. Labour will not be aligned to Mays budget, divide the two parties. After all remainers from the Tory party were working with Corbyn’s Labour to get where we are.

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 11:23 am | Permalink

        I was prepared to set aside the past – which for me included standing against her as the UKIP candidate in 2001 – and trust Theresa May to do what she was promising to do. She has shown herself unworthy of that trust, whether that is because she is basically hypocritical and dishonest or because she is too easily misled by “evil counsellors”. I find I have now got to the point where I can hardly bear to watch her on TV knowing that she is lying through her teeth, just as I reached that point with some of her predecessors. She is no better than “Call me Tony” Blair, and no better than “Cast-iron” Cameron.

        • NickC
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 3:54 pm | Permalink

          Denis Cooper, Until Chequers I put the backsliding mainly down to the civil servants with Theresa May being an empty head. However unless Olly Robbins has engineered a coup d’etat, he must have produced his White paper (in secret from DExEU) on the instruction of Mrs May. That makes Mrs May startlingly devious, and the Robbins WP on a par with Tony Blair’s dodgy dossier. We have been taken for dupes. Again.

          • Bob
            Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:14 pm | Permalink

            What a contrast seeing her with President Trump.
            His honest plain speaking is a breath of fresh air after the Machiavellian manoeuvres of Theresa May and chums.

      • Augustyn
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

        Yes indeed.
        I am 63 years old and have participated in every general election since the age of 18. I have never voted Labour or LibDem.
        It pains me to say that Jeremy Corbyn is more likely to receive my next vote than Mrs May. As I do not like Mr Corbyn’s history and many of his current policies it says something that he is preferred to Mrs May’s version of Conservatism.

        • Timaction
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 1:35 pm | Permalink

          Words cannot adequately describe how I detest this woman and her cohort’s who have deviously betrayed the Nation. She has lied repeatedly and history will show this to be worse than the expenses scandal. She has broken all faith in our democracy. This Government must be brought down and Brexiteer candidates nominated in every constituency. This is bigger than any party issue or any indiduals career. It’s time for actions not empty words.

          • Sir Joe Soap
            Posted July 15, 2018 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

            Indeed.

            This woman is a weasel, as Cameron was a weasel. She will finally prove to be just as much a coward as him, as she runs away from the tough stuff at some stage soon.

            Preferably get rid of her post haste, but if not, better a communist speaking what he truly believes in than these weasels.

        • mickc
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

          Yes indeed! I am Thatcherite, but I will vote for Corbyn. He has always espoused Socialism because that is what he truly believes in; wearlier know what we will get. May professes to help Conservative but is Blairism on steroids.

        • JoolsB
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

          But why Labour who will never delivery Brexit and will destroy the country in the process. Why not UKIP????

          • libertarian
            Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

            JoolsB

            Its the same thing vote Labour or UKIP you get Labour

          • Sir Joe Soap
            Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:51 pm | Permalink

            Current strategy should be to get Tory MPs on side, by whatever means. Alternatives to be discussed later if that doesn’t work.

          • Bob
            Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:28 pm | Permalink

            “Why not UKIP????”

            Because the MSM have put in a lot of time and effort to demonise them in the eyes of the gullible.

            Remember C4’s “UKIP: The First 100 Days”?

            I understand they’re currently working on a smear job about the current ukip leader too.

          • Caterpillar
            Posted July 15, 2018 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

            There is no UKIP, there is also no opportunity to vote. If things have gone as expected I suggest voting LibDem!!! Reenter EU, the EU elections will be PR, an alternative to UKIP might rise. It will be a long hard slog to freedom.

        • Woody
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:17 pm | Permalink

          Sadly I have to confirm my views are identical .. A life long tory voter and I will not vote for the Tories again if they do what Mays remainer appartichik “advisors” have tried to con us into. She has proven not just to be weak and wobbly but she is a liar. Her line that do what we have been told or we will have no brexit or the alternative threat .. we will have a corbyn government, no longer is a tenable argument … if we do what she has tried to trick us into signing up to then there will be no brexit and there will be no tory government for decades. Shocking and appalling lack of wisdom, honesty and leadership by May.

    • Peter
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 2:03 pm | Permalink

      Interesting article from Andrew Rawnsley in The Guardian, of all places.

      If you ignore words like “Brextremist” and the idea that No Deal is a catastrophe, he argues that May no longer has numbers on her side.

      Conservative votes are insufficient. Labour will not shore up a Tory PM and she is even alienating Remainers too.
      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/15/theresa-may-grand-plan-has-left-her-stranded-in-no-womans-land-brexit

  2. formula57
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:34 am | Permalink

    T. May’s modus operandi, seen at the Home Office too, seems to be to decide all herself in private, with eventual public disclosure being late and partial. The gross inappropriateness of such approach, especially in a prime minister, contributes much to the current mess, clearly.

    She is flawed and damaged and must go. Irreparable harm has likely been done though.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:11 am | Permalink

      Indeed. Hence the farce of her “presidential” general election and the punishment manifesto from Ben Gummer et al. Yet she would not even dare to do the TV debate herself.

    • Iain Gill
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:13 am | Permalink

      She did something completely different to the declared public policy on immigration over years as home secretary, and she continues the same approach as pm.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:59 am | Permalink

        Indeed, say one thing do the complete opposite T May.

        It seems Dan Hannan would vote for her Checkers ‘Brexit means absolutely nothing at all’ deal. Better that Corbyn/SNP seems to be his view. But that is not the only alternative.

        In the Sunday Times today.

        • Nig l
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 12:51 pm | Permalink

          Sums it up. Vote for something complete at odds with the electorate and previous public pronouncements just to stay in power.

          I wonder if he has been offered a plum seat when his MEP job disappears and he is repaying that?

          • mancunius
            Posted July 15, 2018 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

            Well he’s been trying hard enough for long enough.

            Hannan is rather a puzzle wrapped in an enigma. Eternally critical of the EU, yet his EEA answer is to adopt all its rules, allow limitless immigration, and do as the Norwegians do, adopt 92% of its legislation without question.

            Even so, May’s current wheeze is (except for immigration) even worse than EEA/Efta membership.

          • Lifelogic
            Posted July 15, 2018 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

            I do not think Dan Hannan is that type of person at all. I think he rightly thinks Corbyn/SNP much be avoided at all costs. But we can do that without retaining May’s appalling Checkers agreement. Indeed we have more chance of avoiding Corbyn by ditching both May and the agreement.

          • Hope
            Posted July 15, 2018 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

            The threat of a Corbyn has been used before by acameron. Last time it was red ed and SNO. But May stated in parliament she would build on Red Ed’s work! Do not be fooled by the scare narrative again. If the U.K. Remained in the EU then it makes no difference which party is in office.FFS you do not support the party that just betrayed you!.

          • Hope
            Posted July 15, 2018 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

            The threat of a Corbyn has been used before by Cameron and Osborne . Last time it was Red Ed and SNP. But May stated in parliament she would build on Red Ed’s work! Do not be fooled by the scare narrative again. If the U.K. Remained in the EU then it makes no difference which party is in office.FFS you do not support the party that just betrayed you!.

    • oldtimer
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:22 am | Permalink

      Your view of May’s modus operandi is confirmed by Baker’s reasons for his resignation. May set up a parallel operation under her direct control run by Robbins. She then sought to bounce the cabinet into accepting it at Chequers and seeks to bounce her party and the House of Commons into it too.

      In doing so she makes untrue claims and says there is no alternative. I do not see how or why anyone could or should trust a word she says. She is unfit for office. The issue for the Conservative party is how and when she is removed from office before she does yet more damage to it and, more importantly, to the integrity of the political processes on which we all depend for an orderly society and in which people can have trust.

      • Peter
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:10 am | Permalink

        Yes ‘how and when’ to remove her is important. They say that if she survives a vote of no confidence it gives her another year protected before she can be challenged again. Guerrilla warfare against her legislation might be a better approach.

        Who knows. If there is anything members of the general public can do to save the country from her plans then I would be keen to hear about it.

        • Sir Joe Soap
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

          We need our own personal recipes.
          Every little helps.

        • Hope
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:01 pm | Permalink

          Both. The first would get huge negative publicity for her even if the vote lost. Then try sabatoging all legislation including the budget in November.

      • Tad Davison
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 10:22 am | Permalink

        I agree OT, but she was unfit for office before she was handed the keys to number 10. That makes me wonder why the Tories in Westminster couldn’t see her inadequacies and weaknesses beforehand when they were so glaringly obvious to the rest of us. So it isn’t just her judgement that is in question. The judgement of all those who dumped her upon us is at best suspect.

        The acid test for any new leader is, will the people back them? The Parliamentary Conservative Party failed to take on board that May was already damaged goods following her lack-lustre tenure at the Home Office.

        Again this morning, May is fighting a rear-guard action to save her skin. That is not what we want, and certainly not what we need. To delay her inevitable dismissal is a waste of precious time. So I say this: For god’s sake get rid of May and give us instead a real Brexiteer in whom we have faith!

        Tad

      • NickC
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

        Oldtimer, You have it right. Unless Olly Robbins has engineered a coup d’etat, the instruction for his White paper (the second) must have come from Theresa May.

        She has been breathtakingly devious by creating two governments: one for show, to keep her back benchers at bay and hoodwink the Leave voters, and another, to impose her capitulation.

        This is no longer limited to Brexit, it is unravelling into a crisis in her premiership, the Tory party, the government machine, and even in our whole democratic system.

        • Timaction
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

          I would join any march or peaceful protest anywhere in this Country to show the anger and resentment this betrayal has brought. This is not over.
          No taxation without representation!!

        • Lifelogic
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

          Olly Robbins – just what is it about people who read PPE at Oxford. Is it just the sorts of people who aspire to such a course. Or do they indoctrinate them with sinister propaganda only when they get there?

          Few seem to have any real grasp of real economics, logic, science, straight dealing or honesty. etc ed.

      • Andy
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

        Steve Baker is one of the most inept ministers ever.

        A man who publicly abused civil servants because he didn’t like what they were telling him.

        It is not the fault of any civil servant that Brexit is an incoherent car crash.

        Civil servants advised. The problem comes when you have inept clowns in government who are too thick to decide.

        • libertarian
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

          Andy

          You know nothing and have achieved nothing meanwhile Steve Baker is a very smart man heres his bio

          Baker served in the Royal Air Force as an aerospace engineer from 1989–99. After leaving the RAF, he studied for a postgraduate degree in Computer Science at the University of Oxford, later becoming a software engineer and consultant. He chose to enter politics after witnessing the financial crisis in 2008, having been one of the chief architects of the IT systems at Lehman Brothers .

          Meanwhile you Andy have never run a business, tell big porkies and spout nonsense

          • hans christian ivers
            Posted July 18, 2018 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

            unnecessary

      • Chris
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

        Yes, Oldtimer, and what is staggering is that Tory Brexiters are still supporting her in cabinet: Gove, Raab, Liam Fox (Penny Mordaunt and others also?).

        The deception by Theresa May has been crystal clear and no amount of spin saying her document represents leaving the EU will convince me or many others. It’s like saying black is white. How can she trot out the spin? One thing to bear in mind is that May’s capitulation was clear with the Dublin agreement and yet Tory Brexiter MPs apparently refused to acknowledge it. Why, and how could they? Charles Moore accurately described the Dublin agreement last December as a “complete capitulation” by Theresa May and very many members of the public thought that we had been betrayed even then.

    • eeyore
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:56 am | Permalink

      The mood has changed. Today JR directly blames No 10, I think for the first time. Elsewhere Mrs May is quoted as saying it’s her Brexit or no Brexit. She must feel confident of her votes to say that.

      Those here who want a showdown may soon get one.

      I’m not among them. Mrs May and the EU have plenty of rope left to hang themselves with. Polls show the public has no liking for her plans, nor for her neither. But events have their own momentum. If there is a challenge let’s pray it works.

      By the way, we who like historical parallels are irresistibly reminded of 1688 and the unwise policies and melancholy fate of King James II.

      • Ex-NHS medic
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

        1642 is a more appropriate year.

    • Stephen Priest
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:08 am | Permalink

      I can’t believe the naivity.

      Daniel Hannan in the Telegraph: “Theresa May’s Brexit plan is an embarrassing climbdown, but I would vote for it nonetheless.”

      Daniel Hannan is completely wrong. Theresa May’s Remain plan means that in the very near future we could rejoin at the drop of the hat. This is a plan to Remain not Leave.

      Now is the time to fight for Brexit. Not 2023, 2026. By then we could have a Labour Government with an ultra EU loving leader. (Her name: Theresa May)

      • Tad Davison
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 10:45 am | Permalink

        Stephen,

        We could argue that we do indeed already have a left-leaning liberal Prime Minister and a government that reflects her inclination. I struggle to find much common ground these days, and that is something I could not contemplate not so many years ago.

        Tad

      • NickC
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

        Stephen Priest, Indeed. The Robbins White paper is a “revolving door” Remain – it envisages the UK leaving the existing EU treaties on 29th March 2019, only to sign up to new treaties, and re-enter existing EU programs, the day after. Would we concede this much to the USA just to get a trade deal? Obviously not.

      • Andy
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:24 pm | Permalink

        Brexit will be undone soon enough anyway.

        Pensioners want it. Young people (under 45s) overwhelmingly don’t.

        Pensioners die off quicker.

        Even if Brexit were not incoherent bunkem you’d be fighting a losing battle against demographics anyway.

        • libertarian
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

          Sacked your young staff yet Andy ?

          • hans christian ivers
            Posted July 18, 2018 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

            more rubbish

        • Anonymous
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

          Not if the obesity epidemic is anything to go by.

          A pensioner can easily have 35 years ahead of them these days.

          Most young people trained in fighting (army/police) voted Brexit. Most young thugs (as you keep telling us) voted Brexit.

          If we are going to ignore a democratic vote and if you are going to continually insult us then this will count against you.

        • Edward2
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:40 pm | Permalink

          That argument is one you repeat and it has been de bunked every time.

        • Tad Davison
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 11:56 pm | Permalink

          People generally get wiser as they get older, so the reservoir of leavers is constantly being replenished. Most people are amenable to reasoned logical and can see when the remain argument is not viable. I do accept however that some remainers are so intransigent and removed from reality, they will never change their minds. Of those who refuse to accept the overwhelming weight of evidence, well, I’m sure there are good psychiatrists who could come up with the answer to their problem.

        • Lifelogic
          Posted July 16, 2018 at 7:06 pm | Permalink

          Well surely it is “die off more quickly” rather than quicker.

          But of course young people, as they age, do tend to get wiser thus augmenting the Brexit support.

      • Chris
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:35 pm | Permalink

        IN my view, Daniel Hannan has never been a convincing Brexiteer, but rather someone who wanted an Associate type membership of the EU. It was he, together with Douglas Carswell, who apparently masterminded the plan to infiltrate UKIP in order to destroy Nigel Farage . However, despite their treachery, and the weakening of UKIP (until recently) the irony is that worldwide noone really remembers the names Carswell or even Hannan in connection with Brexit. Farage is the name most quoted, whether people like it or not.

      • Jagman84
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:05 pm | Permalink

        The Telegraph, along with the Mail, the Sun and the Times, launched the vitriolic attack on Andrea Leadsom for her ‘lack of judgement’ about her children comments. “Not fit for Prime Ministerial office” they wailed. Maybe now they can apologise for their appalling judgement for backing Theresa May. I will not hold my breath!

  3. Nig l
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:41 am | Permalink

    Steve Baker reconfirms in the DT that No 10 was running a secret parallel operation deliberately sidelining the Secretary of State for Brexit. This included Lidington, who I see incredibly briefed the opposition to get their support and Barwell plus advisers so it is Theresa May your (f)ire should be aimed at.

    She is totally risk averse as are her advisers and it is she that has bought the softest possible action. If true, and I am afraid my cynicism about politicians and protecting their jobs makes me doubt it, Michael Gove for instance, the sharpest of sharp had to have realised what the implications truly were but had recently been bought back in from the political wilderness, a clever ploy by TM to silence him, and was never going to give that up? Equally Penny Mordaunt, a critic but again bought off with a big job.

    The fact that they have been duped into accepting and spinning something so blatantly at odds with their headline statements is truly disgraceful. Some have been eerily quiet recently, I guess the tempest of opposition plus I see the polls showing a resurgence of UKIP is concentrating their minds.

    Does the White Paper get voted on and is that it?

    • Iain Moore
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:58 pm | Permalink

      People who join the civil service you would think are risk adverse, and not go getter entrepreneurs , yet it seems that these people who are frightened of their own shadow are the people who are plotting our nation’s course, and seemingly determining Brexit policy. Its no wonder the country is in a bad shape, and that we are going to go for the worst Brexit policy.

      Also if I remember correctly , it was the Foreign Office for whom the EEC/EU was their policy/project, stated by them at the time that they wanted to ‘mange our decline’.

      It would seem that the British people have more faith and more ambition for our country than the British establishment. and if we ever get out of the EU, the job won’t be done, for there is the British establishment to fix as well, as was said in the US elections, there is swamp to drain.

  4. Lifelogic
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:55 am | Permalink

    Indeed huge duplicity by the appalling T May. One can certainly understand why there is so much discussion of her treachery or otherwise, largely form Tory supporters, in the Telegraph.

    “I trust now Cabinet has reaffirmed its wish to get on with the WTO Global UK option there will be strong co-operation to do so”. Well I rather doubt this will be anything more than a window dressing activity under “Brexit means let’s change the names & Remain” Theresa May.

    Dominic Raab, despite being an Oxford lawyer, seems to be quite sound. He is against “positive” discrimination (which is clearly just blatant active “discrimination” against some people). He is also right in saying some feminists are “obnoxious bigots” as some very clearly are. Most women I know agree fully with this. This is perhaps why only 7% of the population consider themselves to be feminists.

    But why on earth did Raab sign up to the Checkers agreement and agree to take on the roll of Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union? The Checkers agreement is not exiting the EU at all – he must surely understand this. Why join in with this duplicity?

    He should listen to Gove on Marr last week trying to defend the indefensible (Boris might put it more vividly), he just sounded absurd and Dominic Rabb will too when he tries to.

    Apparently he shared a corridor at Oxford with Cathy Newman, famous for showing just how daft some Oxford English First Class Graduates can actually be, by her idiotic questioning of Jordan Peterson.

    • Nig l
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 3:24 pm | Permalink

      You have answered your own question. He took the thirty pieces of silver in the form of a seat at the Cabinet table.

    • rose
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

      I think Raab went into the Cabinet to make sure there was still someone there who had the right ideas. I know people have been trying to get the Brexiteers out of the Cabinet and out of the Government, and the resignations have had their effect, but there surely has to be someone there inside the tent, if only to know what is going on.

  5. Mark B
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:55 am | Permalink

    Good morning

    This can be traced all the way back to Tony Blair and his sofa style government.

    The Civil Service has for the past half century gained much power. What many fail to understand is, that the EU was created by Civil Serpents for Civil Serpents. It is new form of government where Technocrates rule and we are given a thin veneer of democracy to keep us quite and leave them to get on with the job of government.

    Messers Salter and Monnet made the same mistake as Marx when he thought up his ideas to save the world /sarc. He failed to factor in the ‘Human Condition’ of self interest. So, when you know the EU is about power for Civil Serpents without accountability then you know one should be very sceptical about their advice.

    Of course this is the PM’s fault. If she were not so secretive then none of this would have happened.

    • Adrianne Smyth
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:58 pm | Permalink

      She has always been secretive. Her six year in the Home Office are shrouded in mystery – she kept her head down and became skilful at hanging on to her job while failing to deport any criminals, murderers, rapists (didn’t even know about the rape gangs all over Britain) except Hamza and that took six years.
      What a complete loser the stupid woman is.

      • Iain Moore
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 10:00 pm | Permalink

        Was she given the nick name of the submarine?

  6. Henry Spark
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:04 am | Permalink

    It is wholly untrue to claim that the civil service “have taken to the task of trying to find as many difficulties as possible that they think might delay or impede Brexit, and have been very shy about finding and tackling all the opportunities that a clean Brexit brings”. The reality is that the civil service are grappling with the many lies told by the Leave campaign – that the EU would quickly offer us a great deal, that German carmakers would rise up in support of the UK, that India, USA, Australia etc would offer us free trade deals, that £350m would go to the NHS, etc. The civil service cannot deliver this – no one can. Brexit is going very badly, and the fault lies totally with lying Leavers

    • Sir Joe Soap
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:06 am | Permalink

      People voted to leave to return sovereignty, not for £350m to the NHS or thinking German carmakers would give us a good deal. If the Civil Service can’t cope with the UK regaining sovereignty over its territory, then they shouldn’t be in place.

      • Sam Duncan
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 3:25 pm | Permalink

        Indeed. One of the reasons we’re in this mess is that the government is being run by Remainers who believe their own hype about the motivation for voting Leave. (And why shouldn’t they? Everyone they know, everything they read in the papers, everything they see and hear on the BBC, confirms their prejudice.) If we’d had real Brexiteers in charge, ending ECJ jurisdiction and EU interference in our internal affairs once and for all would have been right at the top of the agenda.

    • fedupsoutherner
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:27 am | Permalink

      @Henry Spark. What utter rot. The fault lies in the way negotiations were carried out from day one. We should have gone to the EU and told them we were leaving from day one and then started the motions. The EU may have been more than willing to have real talks and come up with a solution which would have been good for everyone. The trouble was the EU could see we were really all for staying regardless of the vote and then didn’t need to give much away. Everything went their way because our ministers or those that were plotting for us to stay did everything the EU wanted. Capitulation on a grand scale.

    • L Jones
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:33 am | Permalink

      Perhaps, Mr Spark (in the interests of impartiality of course) you should list all the Remain lies. I think you’ll have to admit there are one or two…..

      If ”Brexit is going badly” perhaps it is because of all the people who haven’t shown loyalty to their own country, and do nothing but denigrate it and search for ways to hand over its rule to a foreign power.

      While you’re compiling this ‘list’ perhaps you could also include the benefits of remaining in your revered EU (an EU army, jurisdiction of a foreign court, handing over lots of our money for the privilege, etc) and why you believe it would be better if your EU masters ruled us, rather than our own Government. At least we can vote out our own.

      What is WRONG with people that they can’t have faith in the sovereignty of their own country?

    • Edward2
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:47 am | Permalink

      Leaving is easy.
      160 nations carry on with their lives and carry on trading without EU membership.
      It is trying to stay half in that is difficult.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

        Indeed.

    • NickC
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 1:21 pm | Permalink

      Henry Spark, You might have a point if there were no other countries on the planet independent of the EU. The fact that there are plenty, some of them Anglophone to boot, means your position is utter tosh. Unless you can explain why, uniquely, the UK cannot be independent, you have no case.

    • JoolsB
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:02 pm | Permalink

      There were many countries who said they would trade with us post Brexit, the USA and Australia to name but a few but now because of May’s betrayal and intention to keep us tied to the EU, those two countries have now said quite rightly, that a deal may not now be that easy.

      The fault for this does not lie with leavers who have every faith in their country post Brexit but with lying May and all those remain MPs who can’t see life outside the EU and have stuck two fingers up to their leave consituents.

    • Dennis
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

      Henry Spark – there never was any promise, guarantee, pledge to give £350m per week or a single penny to the NHS.

      Read the bus poster again and stop writing fake news.

  7. Martyn G
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:17 am | Permalink

    You are very reasoned and polite, John, which is perhaps why we are where we are. Should you (we?) not be shouting from the rooftops that our civil servants are now running the show by getting elected politicians to do their will? Is that not what it boils down to? Just as the EU commissioners tell the joke EU Parliament what to do?
    A truly sorry state of affairs for our once proud and sovereign nation…….

  8. Ian wragg
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:18 am | Permalink

    Every paragraph of the WP binds us to Brussels.
    Regulatory alignment. Non regression clause.
    There is not one policy area which doesn’t have remainer stamped all over it.
    Still she is allowed to continue humiliating the country with her lies and nothing is done to challenge her.

    • NickC
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

      Ian Wragg, How Mrs May has the gall to stand on her hind legs, look the camera in the lens, and tell us Remain is Brexit, I do not know. She is either very stupid and thinks we are too, or she knows exactly what she’s doing. And since it was Mrs May who must have instructed Olly Robbins to produce the WP in secret, she knows. We thought she was bad, but the extent of her duplicity is breathtaking.

      • Timaction
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

        Agreed. A traitor!

    • Chris
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

      Re your last sentence, Ian W, about nothing being done about challenging her: yes, that is the crunch. Words from aggrieved Tory Brexiters who feel they have been duped are simply not good enough. Action is needed and fast.

  9. Nig l
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:22 am | Permalink

    So the latest project fear spin is the threat of no Brexit at all, presumably unless you give in and of course it will be your fault.

    Presumably the sun won’t shine next!

    • Ian wragg
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:49 am | Permalink

      I know I worked abroad over 20years but I missed the bit where we elected a President.
      I was under the impression that we voted OUT and Parliament voted to respect the wishes of the electorate.
      Now May is saying it is herr way or no way.
      Interesting times.

    • Tad Davison
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 11:13 am | Permalink

      I saw that headline too, and it appears to be saying ‘May’s way, or no way’ so May’s way is the best we can hope for.

      What a load of cods! Talk about myopic and a lack of vision! Yet more BS to try to scare us. How much more evidence do we need in order to prove these remainers will do absolutely anything to try to get us to question our resolve?

      We really have got to drum these short-sighted unimaginative people out of office along with the civil servants who work to undermine the democratic will of the people!

      Tad

  10. hans christian ivers
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:35 am | Permalink

    JR.

    Factually incorrect I could not agree more on both sides including your own.

    1) A technological solution is no problem is no problem in Northern Ireland
    2) There will be no delays at Dover and no more paper work with WTO solution

    3) We will have £ 13 billion more to spend if we leave with no deal as if that would have no implication for the Treasury in terms of income.

    Yes you are right factually incorrect information on both sides.

    • NickC
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

      Hans, If you insist on interfering in a foreign country you should at least learn the language properly.
      1. The Eire/N.I. border is being used by Brussels to foment trouble – your EU is shamefully playing with terrorist fire for political gain. The border exists already – customs simply adds one more bureaucratic procedure onto all the rest.
      2. We export about 50% more to the rest of the world – using WTO procedures – than we do to the EU. This does not cause us problems. We will use WTO rules for our exports to the EU after we Leave. The EU will have to sell to us under WTO rules, just as the RoW does now, with no problems.

      • hans christian ivers
        Posted July 16, 2018 at 5:01 pm | Permalink

        there is no issue for the EU on the NI/Eire border we are the one’s causing the issue.

        If, you are talking about goods exported only, then we do not export 50% more to the rest of the World as 44% of our goods are already exported ot the EU in 2017. up from 43% in 2016

        • libertarian
          Posted July 18, 2018 at 8:30 pm | Permalink

          hans

          These are the facts ( ONS)

          UK major trading partners, exports of goods to the EU went up 0.6 percent, as sales increased mainly to Germany (2.8 percent), France (7 percent), Ireland (5.3 percent) and Italy (0.3 percent); while there was a decline in exports to the Netherlands (-9.6 percent), Belgium (-3.1 percent) and Spain (-0.4 percent). Sales to non-EU countries jumped 7.7 percent, namely to the US (11.3 percent), China (38.6 percent), Canada (16.9 percent) and Switzerland (30.7 percent). Exports in the United Kingdom averaged 23725.94 GBP Million from 1955 until 2018, reaching an all time high of 52952 GBP Million in January of 2018 and a record low of 962 GBP Million in June of 1955.

  11. Gary C
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:36 am | Permalink

    Astonishing, we have a PM who openly conned the electorate, dithered waffled and wasted time , u-turned on promises given, made a mockery of not just her own party but UK politics as well.
    Add to that continued capitulation to the EU and now she turns on her own people with a warning of no Brexit at all whilst seemingly willing to see the annihilation of the Conservative party.

    Treachery beyond belief!

    • Peter
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:16 am | Permalink

      Indeed. Well said.

      • Hope
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:09 pm | Permalink

        May says this knowing 80 percent of the electorate voted for this when voting for both Labour and Tory at the last general election. May is a liar and ha no integrity to make this remark. It also demonstrated for me she has colluded indirectly with the EU and Labour. Why else did Labour change its position?

    • Lifelogic
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:17 am | Permalink

      Indeed and so stupid too as her silly strategy will not and cannot work.

      • Chris
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:49 pm | Permalink

        LL her silly strategy will work for as long as Tory Brexiter MPs support her in Cabinet and outside. Yes, one asks how can they, but they do. I wonder if one at least is compromised.

    • Gary C
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:29 am | Permalink

      it’s been obvious for awhile now that unless a strong Brexit party emerges soon then we are heading for many years of Corbin and Labour.

    • Mark B
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 12:55 pm | Permalink

      We know. Not bad for a Vicar’s daughter.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

        Perhaps she observed just how many people (in her fathers congregation) could be taken by in a few stories about ribs, serpents, floods, heaven, hell, the promise of an after life, plagues and miracles?

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:45 pm | Permalink

        The Vicar of Bray, which is in her Maidenhead constituency.

        “In good King Charles’s golden days,
        When loyalty had no harm in’t,
        A zealous High Churchman I was,
        And so I gained preferment.
        To teach my flock I never missed:
        Kings were by God appointed;
        And they are damned who dare resist
        Or touch the Lord’s anointed.

        And this is law I will maintain
        Until my dying day, sir,
        That whatsoever King shall reign,
        I’ll be Vicar of Bray, sir.

        When Royal James obtained the Throne,
        And Popery grew in fashion,
        The Penal Law I hooted down,
        And read the Declaration;
        The Church of Rome I found would fit
        Full well my constitution;
        And I had been a Jesuit
        But for the Revolution.

        And this is law I will maintain
        Until my dying day, sir,
        That whatsoever King shall reign,
        I’ll be Vicar of Bray, sir.

        When William, our deliverer, came
        To heal the nation’s grievance,
        Then I turned cat-in-pan again,
        And swore to him allegiance
        Old principles I did revoke,
        Set conscience at a distance,
        Passive obedience was a joke,
        A jest was non-resistance.

        And this is law I will maintain
        Until my dying day, sir,
        That whatsoever King shall reign,
        I’ll be Vicar of Bray, sir.

        When glorious Anne became our Queen,
        The Church of England’s glory,
        Another face of things was seen,
        And I became a Tory.
        Occasional Conformist Face!
        I damned such moderation;
        And thought the Church in danger was
        By such prevarication.

        And this is law I will maintain
        Until my dying day, sir,
        That whatsoever King shall reign,
        I’ll be Vicar of Bray, sir.

        When George in pudding-time came o’er
        And moderate men looked big, sir,
        My principles I changed once more,
        And so became a Whig, sir;
        And thus preferment I procured
        From our Faith’s great Defender;
        And almost every day abjured
        The Pope and the Pretender.

        And this is law I will maintain
        Until my dying day, sir,
        That whatsoever King shall reign,
        I’ll be Vicar of Bray, sir.

        The illustrious House of Hanover,
        And Protestant Succession,
        By these I lustily will swear
        While they can keep possession
        For in my faith and loyalty
        I never once will falter,
        But George my King shall ever be,
        Except the times do alter.

        And this is law I will maintain
        Until my dying day, sir,
        That whatsoever King shall reign,
        I’ll be Vicar of Bray, sir.”

    • Timaction
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

      Plus one more!

  12. alan jutson
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:41 am | Permalink

    We have not had true cabinet government since Tony Blair took office, maybe even before that.
    We have had Prime Ministerial Government with a close cabal of ministers and unelected helpers, spinners and advisors, who have drawn up almost personal Prime Ministerial plans which are then pushed through without proper scrutiny by the full Cabinet.

    Hence we get such bad legislation.

    Perhaps it was the actions of the Sir Humphries of the Civil service, where everything seems to take such an age to do anything, that encouraged this sort of governance in the first place.

    The proper solution is to sort out the Civil Service and make it fit for purpose, so proper Government consultation is possible.

  13. Adam
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:42 am | Permalink

    Ministers are muddled in Mayhem. She & her obstructions should go now.

    • jerry
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:35 am | Permalink

      @Adam; How would changing the PM change what the EU want, change what the majority of (europhile) MPs want – by all means dump the PM in April 2019, doing so now will only end up with Brexiteers shooting themselves in both feet not just one!

      • Jagman84
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:45 am | Permalink

        It matters not one iota what the EU wants. We are leaving in March next year. It’s akin to getting divorced and being told that you must agree to conduct yourself in a manner, dictated by your ex, in perpetuity. Something that prompted your divorce in the first place!

        • L Jones
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

          Great analogy, Jagman. And so true.

          How sad we are driven to find analogies in an effort to describe to ourselves the awfulness of it. And what T May is doing seems to be truly awful.

          She is a huge HUGE disappointment. Many of us really did want to believe in her. She had a chance to be someone great in the annals of this country of ours. Does she ever wonder how history will judge her?

          • JoolsB
            Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

            Indeed, I was horrified when all those Brexit Tory MPs chose her as leader, but then she seemed to talk the talk – BREXIT MEANS BREXIT and we thought maybe they chose right. She deceived us all.

          • Jagman84
            Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:39 pm | Permalink

            At least she will not be a disappointment to her children……

          • jerry
            Posted July 17, 2018 at 8:07 am | Permalink

            @JoolsB; No one chose Mrs May, she became leader by default, on the other hand Brexiteers did opt to either not stand or to withdraw from the leadership contest – nor has any Conservative Brexiteer ever explained why this happened.

      • Adam
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 1:15 pm | Permalink

        A better-led Conservative party would pursue Brexit as voters decided. We make our own choices. What the EU does is a matter for them.

        Europhile MPs are a further obstruction, & Theresa May’s waste of a previously substantive Conservative majority still is. Her loss of that majority is the cause of why expelling her now could be less effective. Your assessment, jerry, is probably correct, yet taking her fault out of the equation soon might at least repair the broken compass in readiness to go straight.

        • jerry
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

          @Adam; “A better-led Conservative party would pursue Brexit as voters decided.”

          Well judging from how “voters decided” in the 2017 general election they want a ‘BRINO’ Brexit, after all that has been the only time since David Cameron triggered the referenda the electorate have been allowed to express a direct opinion on How the UK should leave.

          So OK, dump the current leader but who should the Tory party elect to “better-lead’ the Conservative party, Mr Johnson or Mr Clarke…?!

          “Europhile MPs are a further obstruction”

          No, they are the main obstruction, obtaining a meaningful vote for the HoC and all that, and were the main obstruction before the last general election was called, hence why an otherwise totally unnecessary general election was called – and voted for by conservative eurosceptics if I remember correctly.

  14. Old Albion
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:46 am | Permalink

    And now Mrs May is saying it’s this white paper or NO Brexit………………..

    What happened to “no deal is better than a bad deal”

    She has to go…………

    • Steve
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:47 am | Permalink

      Makes you wonder who she’s working for, doesn’t it ?

      • Gary C
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

        Yes it does.

      • Chris
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:51 pm | Permalink

        I think it is rather obvious for all to see who she is working for. At least this latest development has revealed all to those Tory Brexiter MPs who kept supporting her.

    • jerry
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 10:12 am | Permalink

      @Russ; “the Directors Institute wanted cheap labour.”

      True, and immigrants are willing to work for lower wages (but not illegal wages), unlike many of those born here.

      Couple that to investors wanting high returns on their investments, expecting the company to drive sales via ‘competitive’ factory-gate/check-out prices which compete with that other hidden form of migrant worker -the outsourcing of manufacturing to low-cost third countries.

      Stop blaming company owners/directors for doing what investors expect and the law demands, maximising their profits.

      • Anonymous
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:32 pm | Permalink

        But those workers get their living standards topped up by the government.

        This includes free healthcare and education for their families – and any of their rellies who choose to come here on NHS holidays.

        They are being subsidised !

        • jerry
          Posted July 16, 2018 at 6:27 am | Permalink

          @Anonymous; “But those workers get their living standards topped up by the government.”

          As does anyone on a low wage..

          “This includes free healthcare and education for their families”

          As does anyone…

          “and any of their rellies who choose to come here on NHS holidays”

          As does any expat Brit who, whilst holding a UK passport, never having actually lived in the UK for any significant period of time, has never paid UK tax or NI (perhaps not even UK VAT) whilst many others have not done so for many a year…

          “They are being subsidised !”

          Who, not the migrant worker, or whose UK employer, pays UK taxes due to such employment, but you might have a point about those expats (and their passport holding adult sprogs) who return to Blighty on their “NHS Holidays” rather than do the correct thing and pay for local health care…

      • David Price
        Posted July 16, 2018 at 4:35 am | Permalink

        You have an overly simplistic model of enterprise, investment and what motivates different investors.

        • jerry
          Posted July 16, 2018 at 6:30 am | Permalink

          @David Price; Pot calling the Kettle black! Otherwise please do tell us why you think companies do not actually have such legal duties to their investors.

  15. agricola
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:52 am | Permalink

    Democratic government has not functioned in terms of Brexit. Very few of our representatives or the polishers of the civil service have supported the democratic decision of the people. The White Paper was railroaded through cabinet and Chequers to ensure it reflected the opinions of May, her remainers, and a remain civil service. Hence so many resignations, and my complete lack of trust in May and the process she is responsible for.

    The PM has at best been naïve, but at worst duplicitous. I tend to the latter. I think we have reached a Chamberlain moment in our history and need a leader of leave resolve to guide us with Churchillian clarity.

    • agricola
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:42 am | Permalink

      Well she talked a lot on Marr, but failed to convince me that her WP was in the spirit of Brexit and all she had said for two years before. At best mutton dressed as lamb and now subject to EU erosion. If it came about it would have to be unpicked five years down the line. For absolute certainty it is not the return of UK sovereignty. A dishonest 98 pages.

  16. Denis Cooper
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:54 am | Permalink

    Apparently Therolly has now forgotten the unambiguous promise made in the official government referendum leaflet delivered to every household at pubic expense:

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf

    “The referendum on Thursday, 23rd June is your chance to decide if we should remain in
    or leave the European Union.”

    “This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide.”

    Not:

    “This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide provided that you do not decide to leave the European Union, in which case the Government would contrive not to implement what you decide.”

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:54 am | Permalink

      public!

      • L Jones
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

        Never mind, Denis. It’ll go down in the anals of history anyway.

        • Denis Cooper
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:20 pm | Permalink

          🙂

  17. Mick
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:56 am | Permalink

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/14/theresa-mays-secret-cloak-dagger-plot-foil-brexit-revealed-minister/#comments
    This probably as the civil service written all over it, if there is no Brexit there will be no Tory/lab/lib dem/green/Welsh voted in come the next GE but a big surge UKIP , you have been warned don’t take us for mugs we are not idiots we will have what we voted for out of the dreaded and dying Eu

    • Tad Davison
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 11:34 am | Permalink

      One poll today shows movement in UKIP’s favour (up 5, Tories down 6).

      I recall the Tories had a comfortable lead in the polls before the last election, but the public saw through May who was shown to be totally inadequate – anything but strong and stable – and she squandered it. Next time, it looks like she could be starting from the back of the grid.

      Some might say she has plenty of time to turn things around. Seriously, does anybody really believe that?

      At least with her removal at the earliest opportunity, it gives a more suitable and credible person the chance to undo the damage and restore the Tory party’s fortunes – but next time, it has got to be right!

      NO MORE DUDS!

      Tad

      • JoolsB
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:15 pm | Permalink

        If only enough in the country had the courage to vote UKIP (the true Conservative party) but so many don’t for fear of splitting the Conservative party. But on Brexit, I think they would also split the Labour vote, so let’s have the courage of our convictions and vote for them.

    • forthurst
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

      Further according to the DT, “The Telegraph has learnt that last month’s bombshell warning from Airbus that it could be forced to leave the UK came after discussions with senior Remainer ministers preparing for the Chequers summit.”
      …then the government gave a £2bn RAF contract to Boeing without a competition which is why Airbus is very angry.

      I would not be at all surprised if all the foreign bosses (apart from the Banksters) have been prompted by traitors within the gate of which the Tory Party and government has a plenitude.

  18. Javelin
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:06 am | Permalink

    May decided to rebadge the EU membership as Brexit and the civil servants advised her how to do it.

    P.S. Please find a comment on any Political news on the internet who say they will vote conservative. I cannot find one among many thousands.

    • Stephen Priest
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:16 am | Permalink

      UKIP up from 3% to 8%. Conservative down 6 percentage point, 4 points below Labour.

      The likes Daniel Hannan, Gove, Mordaunt, Leadsom, Fox still seem to believe her every word. This is worse than Brexit in name only. It’s Remain.

      Next they’ll be a referendum:

      1. Remain
      2. Theresa May’s deal, also Remain.

      There is no way another referendum will allow LEAVE to be on the ballot paper.

      • Ex-NHS medic
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

        Then we are heading for a civil war

        • Turboterrier.
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

          Ex NHS Medic

          Totally correct and it will be happening sooner than we all think

        • L Jones
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

          Yes. I’ll join in for my children’s sake. And I may also join UKIP. At least they delivered on their pledge.

          And their manifesto is all that the Conservatives should be embracing.

          • Fedupsoutherner
            Posted July 15, 2018 at 10:01 pm | Permalink

            @jones. I’ve renewed my membership. Ukip are more conservative than the Tory party now. If Farage comes back then watch the storm blow up.

  19. Lifelogic
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:06 am | Permalink

    Back me or risk no Brexit at all says Theresa May. But what she is is proposing is no Brexit at all anyway. She must go. Even without her brazen Brexit duplicity she & ‘tax to death’ Hammond are economic and electoral liabilities who will give us Corbyn/SNP. They must go just for this reason.

    • percy openshaw
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:09 am | Permalink

      Spot on. Further to your remarks, I suggest that if the majority of the parliamentary Conservative party is too cowardly to ditch her, then those who see plainly what is going wrong should resign the whip and form their own party. They might engage in confidence and supply arrangements with May’s cabinet of puppets and yes-men to prevent Corbyn in the short term whilst organising properly conservative candidates for the next general election.

    • jerry
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:52 am | Permalink

      @LL; I agree, May and Hammond will give us Corbyn or the Corbyn/SNP coalition you suggest), but your economic ideals would give us Corbyn on stilts (and justifiably so), the 1945-50 Labour governments majority and polices might appear very tame in comparison.

      People have woken up to the fact that low taxes = low spending = the loss of public services, non-renewal or poorly maintained infrastructure etc. The Thatcher government had (much) fat to cut off the Sunday roast, Blair trimmed the meat, now we have reached the bone…

      • Edward2
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

        Public spending has continue to rise steadily over decades.
        Since 2000 it has gone up from 350 billion and by 2020 it could be over 850 billion.
        To the bone indeed.

        • jerry
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

          @Edward2; That would be why Vote Leave promised to spend the Brexit dividend on the NHS, remember that bus, because in real world terms the NHS is so adequately funded – just to give one example…

          • Edward2
            Posted July 16, 2018 at 8:55 am | Permalink

            Complete red herring.
            You said talking about state spending and apparent cuts….we have reached the bone.
            I showed that there has been a considerable increase in state spending.
            You are now talking about spending priorities and
            the bus slogan which only aimed to illustrate how much the EU costs us.

          • jerry
            Posted July 17, 2018 at 8:24 am | Permalink

            @Edward2; The only Red Herring, with a £350m per Lbs price tag, is your ‘explanation’. If enough money is already being spent by HMT to keep all necessary public services and infrastructure preforming as they should why was Vote Leave suggesting/promising to spend the Brexit dividend on the NHS – why not on the creation of a UK space-port or some such icing-on-the-cake ‘White Heat of Technology’ project?

      • Lifelogic
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:07 pm | Permalink

        We have very high & increasing taxes and yet we get public services that are generally appalling many are not a “service” at all. A huge & bloated state doing very little of much use at all and lots that is very damaging.

        • jerry
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:37 pm | Permalink

          @LL; Thank you for your opinion, but a 0.01% tax rate would still be “very high” to someone who doesn’t actually believe in taxation, whilst we could have the best health care etc. in the world but you would still slag it off simply for being run by a government department because you do not believe governments should be running such “services”.

          • Edward2
            Posted July 16, 2018 at 9:00 am | Permalink

            Tax take is at an all time high.
            Service levels are mediocre and we have calls for higher tax take to “properly fund” state services.

            LL has already stated he ,like me, prefers a smaller state with lower tax levels.

            Instead of over 40% he has said a figure in the 30s
            So your claim of under one is silly.

          • jerry
            Posted July 17, 2018 at 8:39 am | Permalink

            @Edward2; “Tax take is at an all time high.”

            Tell that to someone who was faced with Labour’s Super Tax of the 1970s, you do remember that era don’t’ you Eddie, when the press used the phrase “Brain Drain” to highlight how high earners were buying one-way air tickets out of the UK?…

            But I do agree to a point, recent governments since 1979 have used indict taxation to increase effective personal taxation, whilst lowering direct income based taxes and not being quick enough to close off tax loop-holes meaning that those at the lower income ranges tend to incur a higher total tax take.

            As for the rest of your comment, thank you too for your opinion.

  20. Richard1
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:10 am | Permalink

    It’s the same thing as happened with the election manifesto isn’t it? Mrs May with a small coterie of trusted officials and maybe (or maybe not) one or two ministers has come up with a very unsatisfactory policy. I don’t really see how this can change in the way you suggest while she remains PM. The choice is either put up with this bad policy and make the best of it post brexit or get rid of her now.

    • Mark B
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

      Out of all the people here I regard you as a very loyal supporter of the Conservative Party. So when you suggest or demand that the PM and Leader of the Conservative Party resign that is a very significant moment.

      Mr. Redwood MP sir, please take note.

  21. Chris S
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:20 am | Permalink

    What has been going on is exactly what many of the regulars posting on JR’sD have suspected.

    Denis has repeatedly pointed out that there has been no “Rebuttal Unit” ready to challenge Remain’s Project Fear V.2, 3 and 4. Think back to the Blair years when no criticism of official policy went unchallenged by Alistair Campbell. Remainers and Brussels have been making all the running while The Government has never once challenged any of the wild speculation and downright lies repeatedly pedalled by the BBC and the likes of Soubry, surely one of the most disliked Conservative Members of Parliament.

    It now seems crystal clear that the conspiracy to thwart anything that looks like a proper Brexit extends right to the heart of Government. We have been lied to, most famously in the Mansion House speech. That can only mean one thing : Teresa May has to go and be replaced with someone committed to ensuring that the UK returns to being a fully independent Country.

    It might be uncomfortable and cause a delay but Mrs May cannot be allowed to continue in office having been at the head of the biggest conspiracy to thwart democracy in several hundred years.

    • Chris
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:54 pm | Permalink

      Seconded, Chris S.

  22. Ian Murray
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:26 am | Permalink

    We are now presented with a bad case of BRINO backed up by our old friend TINA. Mrs May has long overstayed her welcome.

    Ian Murray

  23. Michael
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:39 am | Permalink

    The main problem is government being out of tune with many in the population.

    The PM may believe with good intentions she is acting in the national interest by promoting the white paper and that she knows what is best for us all.

    But she is taking us down an unwanted, unpopular, sub optimal path that will not deliver the result of the referendum. We did not vote for associate membership of the EU. We voted to leave.

    • jerry
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:01 am | Permalink

      @Michael; “But [TM] is taking us down an unwanted, unpopular, sub optimal path that will not deliver the result of the referendum.”

      Oh dear, here we go again… The referenda never actually asked what the optimal path is, only if we want to take to the path.

      • matthu
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

        An optimal path delivers the result you want. A sub-optimal path risks your being diverted to a different destination.

      • NickC
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

        Jerry, Oh dear, here you go again – the Referendum (–um is singular; –a is plural) asked us to decide on the outcome. We were not asked if we wanted “to take to the path”, with an uncertain and undefined outcome. We were asked what result we wanted – Remain OR Leave. We chose Leave. That’s what must happen.

        • jerry
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:57 pm | Permalink

          @NickC; The referenda (both of them, 1975 and 2016 😛 ) asked for a destination only, it did not ask How we should get to that destination, perhaps had they we would not have been flirting with ‘Miss Trouble’ and now be looking down the wrong end of a shotgun wedding when we try to leave town.

          • Edward2
            Posted July 16, 2018 at 5:41 pm | Permalink

            How can you have a referendum which asks
            Q1 Remain or Leave?
            Q2 Please describe the method and your negotiation tactics plus full costings.
            (If you need more A4 paper please ask the polling station staff)
            This is in effect what you are calling for.

          • jerry
            Posted July 17, 2018 at 8:58 am | Permalink

            @Edwared2; The country hold two septate referenda, the second dependant on the result of the first. It would be for those Campaigning for the options to describe the method, negotiation tactics, costings etc not the voter, just as was the case in 2016, as was the case in 1975.

            For example.
            First referenda = Leave
            Second referenda asks how the UK should leave;
            1/. No deal, WTO rules
            2/. UK/EU trade agreement
            3/. BRINO

            First referenda = Remain
            Second referenda asks how what the UK policy should be within the EU;
            1/. Keep the status quo
            2/. Give up certain opt-outs
            3/. Campaign for a fully federated EU/elected president etc.

            You will note that neither second referenda could reverse the first.

      • Anonymous
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:37 pm | Permalink

        Which part of the word ‘leave’ don’t you understand, jerry ?

        You obviously didn’t vote for it so don’t presume to tell those of us that did what our version of it might be.

        • jerry
          Posted July 16, 2018 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

          @Anonymous; I understand the meaning of the word Leave very well thanks, on the other hand what part of the word ‘How’ do you not understand.

          The question asked was; “Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?” – Norway is not a member of the EU, but nor is the USA… As it is, I favour being an equal to the USA, based on WTO rules, and would vote for such a ‘How’.

  24. Sakara Gold
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:41 am | Permalink

    I would like to see a piece from you on how we are going to preserve, maintain and build on the financial services industry in the City after Brexit next year. Or was allowing the destruction of this crucial part of our “knowlege based economy” what Boris Johnson meant when he was heard to use the crude vernacular expression “f**k business” at the recent Foreign Office diplomatic reception to honour the Queen?

    The White Paper says very little about the City – the powerhouse of the economy. Or are you prepared to see the Germans take over financial services as they did with our car industry?

    • jerry
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:08 am | Permalink

      @Sakara Gold; I would prefer our host to outline how the UK is going to preserve, maintain and build upon our very skilled manufacturing sectors post Brexit, or even if the PM gets her way – far more important than the fate of the financial ‘privatise the profits, nationalise the losses’ (service) industry.

      • NickC
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

        Jerry, “The City” was not bailed out. RBS, HBoS and some building societies were. RBS and HBoS were retail banks operating throughout the UK. HBoS was taken over by Lloyds at the behest of Gordon Brown, so it’s not fair to blame Lloyds. RBS largely failed as a result of Fred Goodwin’s hubris.

        The whole banking sector was put in jeopardy by Brown’s reliance on the CPI (“Chinese” Prices Index) thus allowing the BoE to set rates too low causing a housing boom. Coupled with the subprime scandal caused by Clinton’s beefed up CRA, HBoS and the building societies, dependent on the housing market, were vulnerable.

        • Sir Joe Soap
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

          1 Lloyds could have and should have said “no”
          2 Goodwin wasn’t acting alone.
          3 The independent BoE set rates. They didn’t rely only on the CPI, they relied on their knowledge which was fallible.
          4 Brown prompted 1,, knighted 2, and orchestrated 3, also spent all the money.

      • libertarian
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:28 pm | Permalink

        jeremiah

        1) Services are far more than just our excellent financial services industry

        2) Hi tech manufacturing is going from strength to strength in the UK

        3) Without “services” we won’t have a manufacturing industry ( finance is an integral part as is software and IP ….. all services )

        The Manufacturer ( Trade Magazine)

        “Manufacturing contributes £6.7 trillion to the global economy. Contrary to widespread perceptions, UK manufacturing is thriving, with the UK currently the world’s eighth largest industrial nation. If current growth trends continue, the UK will break into the top five by 2021. In the UK, manufacturing makes up 11% of GVA, 44% of total UK exports, 70% of business R&D, and directly employs 2.6 million people”

        • jerry
          Posted July 16, 2018 at 7:15 am | Permalink

          @Libby; No one is suggesting an either/or position, just not the lopsided obsession with the “services” industry.

          You are so out of touch with reality, you keep talking about the “service industry” as if such a brave new era only began a week or two ago, not 30 plus years ago and which is now showing significant cracks in its very thin vainer.

          Back in the real world, back down on main street though, Walter the brave new 1980s (and its “Big Bang”) were 30 plus years ago, a period as long as the post war political consensus was which ended in May 1979…

          Coal once drove the industrial revolution here in the UK [1], that industry has all but died, for the last 30 odd years the so called “service industry” has been driving a new industrial revolution, but like coal it is not a given that it too should survive, at least in its present form, nor should government cow-tow to it any more than they should have done to coal.

          [1] and no doubt 18 & 19 Century Yupies cited trade journals extolling the virtues of their coal industry back then, just as late 20 c. Yupies extol the virtues of their brave new “service” industries and do so to this day.

      • Anonymous
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:41 pm | Permalink

        Jerry – we had that debate about manufacturing during the referendum.

        We still voted Leave despite the horrors which were meant to visit us the day after. (Which, of course, they didn’t.)

        If what you say is true the factories will be going anyway, now. We will be shafted if we remain.

        • jerry
          Posted July 16, 2018 at 7:21 am | Permalink

          @Anonymous; “we had that debate about manufacturing during the referendum.”

          We had many if not most subjects debated during the referendum, by that logic our host best talk about breading a new variety of Rose, perhaps he could name it “Brexit”!

          Oh and what I’m saying is, because of Brexit we need MORE factories, and because of Brexit we will have them.

    • Sir Joe Soap
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:11 am | Permalink

      We’re prepared to put the people ahead of big business, not big business ahead of the people. That’s what this is about.

      • Puffer Fish
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

        ‘Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven’

    • Fishknife
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 10:12 am | Permalink

      The ‘Common Rule Book’ is rather like Japanese Kudzu, let it get a tendril in and it will take over, just as the German car industry did.
      The EU is itching to throttle the City in just the same way, if we let it.
      Have you read MiFID II?

  25. A.Sedgwick
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:47 am | Permalink

    Quite simply she has to go. It is difficult to see how the Conservative Party can survive in its post war form with her remaining. It is also time for the genuine Leaver MPs to walk rather than talk. It is disappointing some have remained in the Cabinet. Despite the PR disaster that is Corbyn who is going to vote for May, Hammond, Hunt next time round?

  26. Lifelogic
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:53 am | Permalink

    Theresa May’s former chief of staff Andrew Griffiths quits over 2,000 sex texts to two barmaids I read. Two thousand texts! Did he find time left to do any work as Minister for small business for his ministerial salary? Will he be paying the salary back? Will he get the usual ‘resigning’ ministers pay off. He was ‘deeply ashamed’ apparently.

    May does seem to pick rather odd people to be close to her, but then perhaps many MPs are just rather odd?

    It perhaps explains why the May/Hammond Government (and the uncompetitive banks) have chosen to kick and tax small businesses in the UK at every turn.

    It seem he is seeking professional help to address his unaceptable behaviour. So that’s alright then. What sort of professional ‘experts’ are these I wonder? Is there a degree at Bognor Polly or somewhere?

    • Sir Joe Soap
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:15 am | Permalink

      Of course he had time.
      Who needs a UK Trade Minister when you’re going to rely on the EU’s trade people in perpetuity?

      I can’t see how we’ll ever get deals any better or different from the EU’s if we’re starting off tethered to them in the first place. We’ll be lucky to be able to carbon copy their deals elsewhere, because we’re losing our key bargaining chip.

      • Hope
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

        Damian Green? Reported to be her friend as well.

    • Tad Davison
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 11:47 am | Permalink

      He’s not the first LL, nor will he be the last. Unfortunately, there’s an alarming number of Tories on the list of those with a peculiar sense of what is acceptable and unacceptable.

      Tad

  27. Fedupsoutherner
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:56 am | Permalink

    What can I say but what a mess. You and your fellow MPs must be feeling very let down now. She has shafted her own party. Such treacherous behaviour cannot go unpunished. Both she and Hammond will be the demise of the party and consequently the country. Any MP worth voting for must vote against the white paper and see to it that May goes.

  28. gregL
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:58 am | Permalink

    At some time common sense will have to prevail..if we don’t need or want the EU then the cliff is the best option..if we absolutely need a transition to something else then we have a start here in the white paper..the No Brexit option might be the best option if it is only for the short term, say thirty or forty years, until we work out what exactly we want as a nation, could better to take our time and get this right because we are deciding for future generations..

    Problem for us now is that the EU has lost confidence in us and can see that Britain is not a happy or a safe place to do business with..they are not going to put up with decades and decades more of the whinge..so are very likely to let the whole british thing go to the cliff..toWTO..therefore JR no need to worry..it seems to me we are fast heading that way

    • Jagman84
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:56 pm | Permalink

      So all of our non-EU trade is a cliff? A cliff that generates a trading surplus. No wonder the EU wants us constrained by a fake Brexit deal!

  29. acorn
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:03 am | Permalink

    I would not surprise me that should the ERG 62 – The Mogglodytes – ever get into Downing Street; as they walk in the front door, the Civil Service (CS) will walk out the back door; led by Treasury and Defence.

    The CS never forgets those that attack its independence as the tool box of here today gone tomorrow governments of all colours. They have to deal with their half baked ideologies and little policy design competence.

    Then Departments have to deal with frequently changing ministers who turn up with yet another “initiative” to impress the boss. That’s before the previous minister’s “initiative” has finished buggering up the system. And so on ad infinitum.

    There are now numerous Catch 22 quotes you can apply to Brexit, particularly on sites like this one. “Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t after you.” ― Joseph Heller.

    • Edward2
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:51 am | Permalink

      Civil servants have never walked out in the last hundred years despite some very different styles of government.
      They cling on for their early retirement, big pensions and nice part time jobs.

      • Puffer Fish
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

        According to civilservant.org.uk ‘Can civil servants be dismissed?’ the situation is more complex than what you write.

        • Edward2
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

          Out of 100,000 civil servants just how many have been sacked For bad performance in the last 30 years?

    • Jagman84
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 10:01 am | Permalink

      You point would be valid if the Civil Serpents were truly “independent”. However, in reality, they are an outpost of Socialism, steadfastly continuing the work of Blair and Brown. Hence, their vehement opposition to leaving the EU. Their only defence, in this instance, is that the current PM is a Blairite too!

    • Tad Davison
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 11:55 am | Permalink

      The civil service is like fire and water – good servants, but bad masters. As JR has already said, their duty is to assist government, not lead it. If civil servants were to walk out of the back door in the circumstances you describe, then their absence would not be missed, it would be welcomed.

      Tad

    • Ex-NHS medic
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

      Then we can recruit and train impartial civil servants. Big deal.

    • NickC
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:01 pm | Permalink

      Acorn, It is the EU that has corrupted our civil service. The direction of travel is set by the treaties but policy is, in reality, decided by the civil servants meeting together in Brussels. They have got used to the power (“power tends to corrupt”) and don’t want to let go of it.

  30. Peter Wood
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:03 am | Permalink

    With regard to the method of production of the Chequers White Paper, its content and now its presentation to the public, it is beyond belief, that a PM of a Conservative government in our country should act in this perfidious manner. Mrs. May must be forced to resign immediately.

  31. William Long
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:11 am | Permalink

    That is all well and good and, as ever, what you say encapsulates the situation and where things are going wrong, clearly and concisely. But, do you really think that the Cabinet’s ‘wish to get on with the WTO Global UK option’ was any more than lip service to what real protagonists of leaving the EU were perceived (rightly) to want to hear? Though I should be delighted to be proved wrong, I will only believe it when I see it. I think all that the members of this Cabinet aaare doing is waiting to hear which way Brussels will tell them to jump next.
    Incidentally I now have a much clearer idea of why so many Americans voted for Mr Trump.

    • fedupsoutherner
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:36 am | Permalink

      @William. I think many of us on this blog would endorse Trump’s way of doing business any day. Tell it like it is and do what you say you are going to. Mrs May and several of her ministers would do well to listen to his advise and take heed for they have all truly pissed off the electorate big time.

      • Gary C
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

        @ fedupsoutherner

        Re: ‘Mrs May and several of her ministers would do well to listen to his advise and take heed for they have all truly pissed off the electorate big time.’

        I can only think they are gambling the electorate will vote for them to avoid a Labour government, In my view this has gone well beyond expecting those you have shat on to vote for the best of the worst, quite frankly TM and her cohorts have gone way too far this time and the only thing that will save them is a proper Brexit with no strings attached.

        TM has induced such anger their voters are turning away in droves and who can blame them, Corbin must be delighted.

        • Jagman84
          Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:03 pm | Permalink

          The problem is that should Labour be returned to power, Corbyn would be swept aside by the Blair wing of the party. Golden-boy, Kier Starmer, would be shoehorned in as PM and Brexit would be nothing but a broken dream.

    • NickC
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:09 pm | Permalink

      William Long, You are right, I would be very surprised if the government has any meaningful plans for the WTO deal Brexit. At the very least the government would have to start talking to actual business people (no, not the CBI) to find out what they have already planned. The problem is Mrs May is a “top-down” character, so won’t have even thought of that.

  32. Paul Cohen
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:12 am | Permalink

    The Chequers meeting seems to be an of how not to have a team building exercise where the members are treated to a degrading put down and a reminder they may have to walk home if they don’t comply! I don’t think Mrs May has what it takes to carry Brexit to a successful conclusion – but who- Owen Patterson perhaps?

    The non availability of the white paper in the Commons was farcical and another embarresing shambles.

    As we were already members of the WTO why was this not the first choice ? The EU could simply have been invited then to improve aspects of it , avoiding the dog fights we have all had to suffer

    • NickC
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

      Paul Cohen, Absolutely right, but too sensible for Mrs May and the civil service.

  33. Roy Grainger
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:27 am | Permalink

    I think in this case it is harsh to blame the Civil Service, there’s nothing to suggest they haven’t been following exactly the policy May set for them.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

      Maybe the policy that May set for them on their advice?

      This is why I refer to the composite Therolly, Theresa fused with Olly.

  34. jerry
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:30 am | Permalink

    “Of course this could only happen if No 10 let it happen, whether by design or by misunderstanding.”

    That implies Davies either accepted this or he should perhaps have resigned long ago and thus forced the issue out into the open. It’s not as though eurocrats and senior member of the UK civil service were meeting in private.

    Most people on civi-street will likely never know why Davies appears to have been sidelined by or for the official civil service, judging by the smiles each time, one would assume that Davies and Barnier had at least a working relationship -but perhaps they did not, what then, crash out on March 29th 2019 unprepared, ask for an extension to the A50 process, ask for our A50 letter to be revoked?

    More questions than answers, but once again the original “silent service” are getting in the neck from those with vestige interests/opinions – what ever the civil service do they are the servants to the nation via the PM and his or her Ministers – stop blaming the servants Downstairs for disorganised and rowdy household Upstairs -Hudson nor Mrs Bridges, not even Ruby, are to blame!

    • NickC
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

      Jerry, Or the Robbins WP was produced behind the backs of David Davis and his team of civil servants at DExEU.

    • Edward2
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

      I think you may be mixing up civil servants with SPADS who are very much upstairs influencing the PM

    • Chris
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:46 pm | Permalink

      It is getting quite easy to believe that Davis, Fox and Johnson were set up as a front for the gullible public and MPs, whereas the real operation was a covert one, with a very different agenda. Yes, Steve Baker has stated that there was a covert operation but I am beginning to think that this undercover operation was planned right from the very beginning (maybe that is why Nissan were apparently so easily placated in the early days? What reassurances did May, or her civil servants perhaps give them?). The more Steve Baker’s words sink in, the more I realise the extent and depth of the treachery that has been carried out. Noone should be in any doubt as to the gravity of what Theresa May has apparently tried to carry off. We need MPs with honour to swiftly put this situation right, and also to try to ensure that this never happens again. This cloak and dagger stuff with a cabal of trusted operatives is not what democracy is about.

  35. Dave Andrews
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:32 am | Permalink

    “Ministers decide, civil servants advise” under decades of EU rule has been turned into “Civil servants decide, ministers do as they are told”.

    It seems the best course of action for the UK is to make a clean, no deal break, and then negotiate from outside, which is unfortunate since we could have been negotiating a decent deal under David Davis.

  36. JJE
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:41 am | Permalink

    I see Peter Mandelson is calling the White Paper proposals a national humiliation and says a hard exit would be preferable. Even arch Remainers hate this proposal.

    • DancerJ
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

      JJE- yes- and we don’t need Peter Mandelson telling us about how bad the white paper proposals are..the EU people think the very same and for this reason it is not going to fly..furthrrmore they know there’s huge division in the UK camp which will bring trouble for years to come so therefore there’s absolutely no chance it will be accepted not even to sit down and start with..

  37. Steve
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:43 am | Permalink

    How interesting that it’s taken all this time for anyone to admit the civil service is completely infiltrated with Blair-ites. All of it, everything from local government to the BBC.

    That said, the treachery is by May’s hand, ultimately.

    You might think there is no ideological alignment between May and Blair-ism. Think again !

    What we appear to be facing is in effect a coup, by those who’s mission is to pull this country down and they’ve achieved it by infiltration.

    If people really knew about May’s family background they’d conclude she should have ever been allowed anywhere near public office. Her religious and ideological form is, put quite simply; anti-English.

    She needs to go RIGHT NOW ! and the civil service needs it’s Blair-ites routed.

    The choice is this; expose and clear out this treacherous vermin now, or there will be blood on the streets when the British public finally wakes up and the lid blows off.

    • jerry
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:38 am | Permalink

      @Steve; If the civil service is “completely infiltrated with Blair-ites” the White Paper would not run to some 100 odd pages but a mere 5, including covers and Crown Copyright notice, it only needs one page to outline how the UK government will be scrapping Brexit, ignoring the referenda result, remaining in the EU on current (as of early 2016) terms.

      No Mrs May’s personally hand crafted document is far worse, May intends to turn this country in to a vessel state, not even one of the 28 fully Federated states that Blair dearly wished for -no doubt with him as President of the USE!

    • Tad Davison
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

      They’re all from the same gene-pool Steve. We shouldn’t really be surprised they think more or less the same way, and come to similar conclusions.

      We need a far better standard of politician and civil servant. People who break the mould and who do not kowtow as soon as they meet an obstacle. This lot bind their own hands with political correctness and more besides, and it’s pitiful to watch.

      Tad

      • Anonymous
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

        Jobs are advertised in the Guardian and recruitment through the indoctrination camps… I mean… universities !

    • Fishknife
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

      @ Steve
      Youngsters, The Civil Service was reading the Grauniad long before Blair.

      Coming from a gereration before VISA I remember when Cash was King.
      Readies in hand – pay the listed price, no way.

      Cash in hand we can dicker for a deal with whomever we want US, China, India, Japan, the Commonwealth, even ourselves.
      You do a Trade deal to further your own interests, buying or selling.
      This one blatantly isn’t working.

      Can’t cut a deal – where are the “Flying Forskins” (Royal Bucks Hussars) when you need them.

      Fix bayonets.

  38. Blahblah
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:45 am | Permalink

    We did not vote for a common rule book- we should just leave like we voted for- we don’t need the WTO rules either..too many rules..we are not going to be a rule taker

    • NickC
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

      Blahblah, The EU keeps making new rules taking more sovereignty away from us step by step without additional treaties. It’s known as the “ratchet”. The rules from the WTO, NATO, etc are limited to those already in the treaty. That’s a marked difference.

  39. Caterpillar
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:13 am | Permalink

    There would seem to be four lines of defence for the country,

    1) Increased media cover of, and public pressure for, a defence of democracy (difficult as the opposition is not defending democracy, indeed prefers to march against a democratically elected head of state).
    2) Persuade the Govt and opposition (and find a face saving route for this) to follow the WTO Global UK (aka clean Brexit) route. Hopefully some rapid clarification on how the white paper really effects future trade agreements with others (POTUS and Thornberry have questioned this, as have service businesses) will allow a back tracking.
    3) Bring the leadership / Govt down (a leadership challenge might not succeed, so motion of no confidence, leave the party ..?)
    4) Begin an investigation on whether the Civil Service Code has been broken, if civil servants views have been allowed to influence the democratic process it needs to be publicly investigated and rooted out to maintain the democratic process. [I think this has to be done whatever]

    Aside from these I’d like to read a critical comparison (e.g. by the briefingsforbrexit academics, or the lawyersforbritian experts) of the current white paper, the DExEU intended white paper and Redwood at al’s ‘ Road to Brexit’ paper.

  40. Caterpillar
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:28 am | Permalink

    I’ve just re-read Ken Clarke’s infamous comments on Mrs May at the time of the leadership election, including, “So long as she understands that she’s not to deliver on some of the extremely stupid things she’s been saying.”

    Seems Mr Clarke was right.

  41. Brian Tomkinson
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:28 am | Permalink

    I have no confidence in Mrs May and her performance on Marr this morning has reinforced my opinion. You and your colleagues need to sort this out quickly as your ratings are plummeting and will continue whilst she behaves like this. Time isn’t just running out on Brexit negotiations it is also on the future of your party. The wilderness seems most likely outcome.

  42. Shieldsman
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:32 am | Permalink

    So there are two white papers!!
    That of the Official Government Department for Brexit and the No.10’s Ollie Robbin’s one.

    May’s secret ‘cloak and dagger’ plot to foil Brexit.

    Then we have another plot in which Airbus claim they did not get their pieces of silver for rubbishing Brexit.

  43. Arthur Wrightiss
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:33 am | Permalink

    I have just listened to Mrs May on the Marr programme.
    The Titanic Party ( formerly the Conservative Party) is proceeding at full steam ahead towards the iceberg. Iceberg, what iceberg says Mrs May , let me be clear, waffle waffle.
    When I hear politicians say they have been “ very clear “ I know they are being precisely the opposite.
    Like many thousands/ hundreds of thousands/ millions, the Conservative Party has lost my vote, and I’ve been voting Tory for over 50 years.
    Was it Alan Deutschman who wrote Change or Die ? The end is coming sooner than you think.

  44. DUNCAN
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:41 am | Permalink

    May to Marr –

    She will not accept a border between Ireland (EU) and the UK (EU). Therefore Brexit is dead

    Thanks John. Thanks a lot for betraying your party, your voters, your principles and British democracy

    You and your ilk voted to elect this politician to lead our party and now we face a future as little more than a region of the German empire

    Well done, well done to all Tory MPs for betraying your nation

    Reply I did not vote for her. We need to play the cards as dealt. Try helping these of us who are out to get a good Brexit instead of screaming abuse at us.

    • Timaction
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 2:03 pm | Permalink

      Then make the Government fail in its legislative programme and total disobedience to your leader and remain cohort. Ask former Brexiter to look at themselves in the mirror and do it all publcally with the media Mr Redwood!!

    • rose
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

      Mr R did not vote for Mrs May, at any stage. You have been told this before. Why do you cling to this calumny?

    • Norman
      Posted July 16, 2018 at 1:38 am | Permalink

      Appreciate your efforts, John. Please don’t let this frenzied, intemperate atmosphere deflect you from your worthy mission. Besides, there are events outside the hand you and like-minded colleagues have been dealt, which may well determine the future – it doesn’t all rest on one person’s shoulders, as many here seem to think. President Trump, for all his refreshing brashness, seemed to appreciate this.

  45. Steve
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:51 am | Permalink

    Hope may reads this;

    So, no BREXIT eh ?

    Well get this May; we’re getting you and your cronies out, one way or another. You WILL pay for this.

    • Anonymous
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:14 pm | Permalink

      Simply by staying at home on election day.

      It really is as simple as that.

      Voting is a waste of time. In fact it’s damaging. It’s kept a zombie Tory party alive.

  46. Peter D Gardner
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 10:09 am | Permalink

    Seeing that her own supra-nationalist views are contrary to those of both the majority of the electorate and the responsible department and that they transgress the manifestos of both main parties and as such would rightly be terminated were they put forward by the House of Lords, Mrs May did the following:
    1) Established within her government a detached private cell comprising herself and an unelected adviser in the person of a civil servant, Ollie Robbins.
    2) Used her private cell to undermine and circumvent properly established and functioning government departments.
    3) Blocked her government, with the help of the Chancellor, from preparing for No Deal so that she could present her deal on a take it or leave it basis to parliament knowing that so late in the day a Remain dominated parliament would choose a bad deal over a highly disruptive unprepared ‘No Deal’.
    4) Established a secret channel between her private cell and the EU and selected heads of government of member states, so that she could negotiate separately and without the knowledge of her government or government departments.
    5) Rejected and suppressed her own government’s draft white paper on the future relationship with the EU and instead used her private cell to produce her own fundamentally different white paper in secret, in conjunction with UK’s competitors and more favourable to their interests.
    6) Bounced her cabinet into accepting her and UK’s opponents’ proposals by disclosing it only the night before her Chequers meeting, and taunting any who might oppose it with removal of their ministerial cars and a long walk down the driveway of Chequers late at night, and issuing a disused telephone number for a local taxi.
    7) Standing up in Parliament saying that her Chequers statement and now her white paper say all her previous commitments on Brexit are fulfilled, while MPs could read it themselves and could see it says nothing of the sort. It is beyond comprehension that she has not been charged with lying to parliament. Perhaps when it is that obvious and blatant it doesn’t count. We are supposed to infer that the only person being deceived is Mrs May herself.
    At the very least the devious dictatorial tendencies of Mrs May have been exposed. Whether technically correct in law or not, commonsense indicates that Mrs May has been for sometime working against the interests of the UK and doing so in secret in conjunction with UK’s opponents, and has deceived the country about what she is doing and her actions therefore constitute treason or sedition.
    In the days of absolute monarchy our rulers at least understood they walked a fine line between the interests of the country they governed and treason and that if they got it wrong they would lose their heads. In the absence of severe penalties, it seems Mrs May has not troubled herself to care much about the distinction.
    Should this not be investigated formally by a Royal Commission?

  47. Simon
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 10:09 am | Permalink

    In due course Mr Redwood you are going to need to admit to the true root causes of the current mess – the breathtaking incompetence of the Prime Minister.

    • Anonymous
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

      No.

      She was put in place to scuttle Brexit.

      Mission accomplished.

      • Jagman84
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:13 pm | Permalink

        Who provided May’s backing in the leadership election/coronation? They are the ones to target. They share the blame for this debacle.

  48. Qubus
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 10:32 am | Permalink

    Never mind Donald Trump.

    In public, Mrs May recruits David Davis to lead an official committte to persue a Brexit deal. Secretly, she arranges with civil servants to persue a second independent group to persue a soft deal, which completely cut the ground from under Mr Davis’s feet.

    Is treachery too strong a word for this action.

  49. margaret howard
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 10:44 am | Permalink

    ‘Civil servants advise’ – unless they are Brussels civil servants. Then, in Brexiteer speech, they become unelected bureaucrats! Double standards.

    • Edward2
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

      No not double standards.
      Civil servants should only advise and take government policy forward.
      But we see increasingly they are trying to influence policy.
      Just like the unelected technocrats in the EU

    • NickC
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

      Margaret Howard, As usual you’ve got things the wrong way round. “Civil servants advise” is an instruction not a description. And the EU Commission has vastly more power than even our senior civil servants.

  50. Denis Cooper
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 10:59 am | Permalink

    The female half of the Therolly combo was interviewed on the Andrew Marr show this morning, and she said that major manufacturers would stay by EU rules anyway in order to sell their goods to the EU.

    She didn’t go on to say that because some of the 6% of UK businesses that export 12% of our GDP to the EU would have to conform to EU requirements on goods anyway all other businesses should also have to conform to those EU rules, whether or not they export to the EU, and whether or not they export goods to the EU, but that is the engrained Therolly presumption.

    Which is also why Therolly is incapable of grasping that if the EU doesn’t want properly disinfected chicken included in the goods worth a mere 0.1% of UK GDP which are driven across the land border into the Irish Republic then rather than having a law to prohibit its importation into the UK, as we do now, we could equally well pass a new law to prohibit its exportation to the EU, including across the Irish border.

  51. Helen Smith
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 11:23 am | Permalink

    As ever our host is polite and understated.

    May has deliberately wasted time in order that she could produce her ‘Remain’ Brexit policy when there was no time left, and she backs that up threatening that there will be no ‘Brexit’ at all unless her policy is supported.

    She ignores the vote, her manifesto and the polls. She is a conniving, wretched, weak liar. I absolutely loathe her, really, really loathe her.

    • Anonymous
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:18 pm | Permalink

      Can’t stand the sight of her. We must prepare for Corbyn.

      • Jagman84
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:20 pm | Permalink

        Corbyn would be ousted within days. Prepare for Blair mark II, Keir Starmer, the Brexit killer.

  52. ian
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 11:55 am | Permalink

    At the moment, it only a plan to try to sell to the EU, if the EU is not buying the plan without a customs union then there will be no deal on the white paper, labour and the lords want a customs union put in the trade bill, so then it either a last-minute deal and alter trade bill, later on, withdrawal of the article 50, extend article 50, the outcome is all up in the air and maybe not be know till April next year, I can’t see anything happening this next year unless may cave in altogether or the EU.

    • Chris
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 10:01 pm | Permalink

      I believe the EU will make encouraging noises about the plan put forward by May, initially, then bit by bit wring more concessions from her. They may enjoy this process so much, that it may get to the point when she realises that it has all gone a bit too far even for her, and that she alone has been responsible for the utter fiasco of vassal state status that she is inflicting on us.

      History will not be kind to her, but maybe she is not concerned as she will have fulfilled her orders from those pulling all the strings. There are indeed some similarities with the deep state coup that was attempted against President Trump. The situation is deadly serious for this country and I believe this will be the last chance to save it and democracy. I think perhaps Jacob R-M understands that now, but it has taken far too long for the Brexiter MPs to wake up. The people saw it before the politicians apparently. That is why UKIP under Farage took off.

      • Chris
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

        Mr Redwood, a PS to my comment above: I want to add “apparently” before “fulfilled her orders” (first sentence second para) as obviously that is my view/opinion only.

  53. Prigger
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 12:06 pm | Permalink

    Naughty civil service. Pah! But mainly bah!

    Listened to Rees-Mogg on TV today.It seems he and we must await David Davis’s Statement in Parliament on Monday and also a same day meeting of Brexiteer MPs. A strategy will be formed for defeating Mrs Civil Service May.
    The agenda will surely have options:

    1.A vote of “No Confidence”
    2. An attempt to “persuade” May to backtrack on what she has declared…..achieving stability of her Office and the Tory Party

    Mrs Civil Service May, if I were in her position and with her obvious years of sabotage work, would stand firm…she has no choice. She may win a Confidence vote in the House. But not from the electorate’s point of view. They do not care how MPs manage their treachery.
    #Conclusion: Timid Tory Remainer MPs fearing their own electorates, will compromise.They will urge her to resign without a No Confidence Vote and accept a new candidate for PM who still may not be a Brexiteer but not a a saboteur of Brexit with the understanding the Common Rule Book is OUT
    Ideally of course I would wish JR to be PM or Rees-Mogg or Boris

    • NickC
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

      Prigger, Who can trust Mrs May now?

    • rose
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

      I second those three. Ideally, Boris as PM, JR as Chancellor, and Rees Mogg to clean up the civil service.

      • DWMF
        Posted July 17, 2018 at 9:09 am | Permalink

        J R-M will also need to clean up his own parliamentary party. If UKIP has MPs, a coalition may be on the cards.

  54. Pragmatist
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

    Labour MPs and Councillors despite their official calls for a second referendum actually fear it. For Labour rock solid Labour voters to vote effectively against Labour for Brexit…. twice …would be too greater risk for their positions .It would “break the mould” to coin a Liberal phrase, for ever.

    • Helen Smith
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

      Indeed, should there be an early GE Labour are surely not going to put a commitment to a second ref in their manifesto. If they won power they wouldn’t want the public to vote on their deal anyway.

      Once Conservative MPs have taken stock they will surely get the loathe some creature to stand down

  55. TROD
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    I do not agree with Mrs. May when she warns that voting against the white paper will make it harder to leave the EU. Because, I think that voting must take place on the merits of the proposed legislation alone, rather than a tactical vote based on hypotheticals.

    • Steve
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 2:46 pm | Permalink

      @ Trod; Actually May is saying that there will be no BREXIT at all other than the capitulation she and her Franco German bed fellows have conspired.

      Of course, she has no mandate for this and if she does stop BREXIT then expect riots – very big ones. She will need a really good hiding place and might find herself facing a ceausescu style exit.

      Her words are those of east german Angela Merkel, with whom she is subservient.

      The tories need to sling this woman onto the streets, without the privilege of tax payer funded security ASAP. If they don’t, the country is definitely FBR and there’s going to be one hell of a reckoning not just for her but also for the cowards who put EU interests before those of the nation.

      If the tories really are serious about facilitating the BREXIT we voted for, they need to throw this woman to the lions pretty sharp. Even then I think its too late, the tories won’t ever be elected after this, electorate will be running in their millions to UKIP.

      Should have routed the Europhiles years ago.

    • graham1946
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:40 pm | Permalink

      She went further than that. She more or less threatened that there would be no Brexit at all if she doesn’t get her way.

      • Chris
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

        It really does appear as if she is taking orders and passing them on. Noone who has confidence in him/herself would behave in the manner she is, passing on apparently ridiculous threats e.g. about no Brexit if she doesn’t get her way, (also the risible threat about ministerial cars and taxis at Chequers).

      • Newmania
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 11:41 pm | Permalink

        A result the majority of the country would be happy with

        • Edward2
          Posted July 16, 2018 at 9:04 am | Permalink

          Not according to recent surveys.
          One had 70% saying they wanted the government to get on with it.

        • graham1946
          Posted July 16, 2018 at 9:48 am | Permalink

          48 percent is not a majority. You need to brush up your arithmetic skills. Where is your evidence that more than 50 percent now want to stay? Just another Remoaner made up ‘fact’?

  56. alan jutson
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    Looks like Mr Cameron should have pushed through the boundary changes when he had the chance.
    No chance now of Mrs May doing it right, given her poor record on almost everything.

    You are already fighting the next election with a 10% benefit to Labour given the current constituency voting arrangements, given you are now down in the polls as well, that makes it doubly difficult.

    Mrs May seems to get all of the major decisions wrong, we had the disastrous social care factor which hammered the Conservatives in the last election, now we have EU capitulation on top of that.

    What next ?.

    • Chris
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

      Hammond has a few tax rises up his sleeve apparently.

  57. Gareth
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    I am sorry to say it, but what you say is only half the situation. I know many Civil Servants, most of whom have no involvement in Brexit in their day jobs, some of whom are occasionally involved in staffing of a Brexit issue, and some who are immersed in it. Those called on for occasional advice very often say in staffing that Brexit has no bearing at all on the issue since our engagement with Europe is not with the EU but through some other arrangement or Treaty (e.g. ESA, CERN).

    It’s those immersed in Brexit that are the interesting lot. Often, they’ll say they’ve managed to work through a batch of issues no problem. But, despite the Leave claims, they still tear their hair out over other, often major, issues. You might talk of Project Fear, but Leave is guilty of Project Micawber. There really are some intractable problems, problems that WILL affect future investment in the U.K. And the claims of the Leave camp – “we can have our cake and eat it” (Johnson), “a free trade deal with the EU will be the easiest thing in the world” (Fox), and pretty much anything Davis said, are as outlandish as anything in Project Fear.

    I’m afraid this whole episode has cost the entire political class in a poor light. Brian Cox has it right: politicians, and for that matter the electorate, are too driven by ideological concerns and take far too little heed of evidence. Especially when evidence tells them something they don’t want to hear.

    That fact that the same applies in the EU as it does in the UK only makes matters worse.

    • NickC
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:41 pm | Permalink

      Gareth, The evidence is that it is perfectly possible for the UK to be independent of the EU. You glibly segue from known problems to saying that independence is impossible – without any chain of logic. We are not a third world nation so two island nations – New Zealand and Japan – show it can be done.

      • Gareth
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

        I have not said anywhere that leaving the EU is impossible, nor that Britain cannot be an independent nation. Of course leaving is possible, and of course we can be independent. What I am saying is that in extracting ourselves from the EU there will be immense difficulties in several, perhaps many, areas. In this regard, Leavers have been just as bad as Remainers – all this “have your cake and eat it” nonsense, “easiest thing in the world” rubbish. It’s glib and false and not what those actually working the issues are experiencing.

        And remember this: it’s a lot harder to extricate yourself from something you’ve been entwined with for decades, than it is if you’d never joined at all. And that’s why New Zealand and Japan are different to us.

    • Rb
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

      Brian Cox has it right: politicians, and for that matter the electorate, are too driven by ideological concerns and take far too little heed of evidence. Especially when evidence tells them something they don’t want to hear.

      >
      Brian Cox thinks the Americans walked on the moon. I wouldnt take too much notice of him

      • Puffer Fish
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:14 pm | Permalink

        Welcome to this site: we didn’t have flat earthers yet!

      • Gareth
        Posted July 16, 2018 at 7:05 am | Permalink

        It is a sad indictment of our times, that I can’t be sure whether you’re joking or subscribing to a conspiracy theory!

  58. Newmania
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 12:43 pm | Permalink

    self serving and factually incorrect fears that some Remain oriented groups and businesses are putting forward.

    If a business puts forward a ‘self-serving’ point , as you put it , that means it is trying to save its profits and its employees form harm
    Businesses are people, just people; gathered into a legal entity for the purpose of profit and employment. There is nothing disreputable about them, or wrong with wishing to protect them from ideologically Nationalist rabble rousers

    • mancunius
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 2:26 pm | Permalink

      To most sensible people it looks as if it’s the CBI doing the rabble-rousing – and equally, most sensible people (including the employees of these rabble-rousing employers:-) will view with some scepticism the claim that they have their employees’ interest at heart.
      The big multinational globals who fund the CBI spend billions (and write it down as a business cost) on plush offices in Brussels and on dubious ‘think-tanks’/PR firms to lobby the EU in order to gain the kind of over-regulation that will not dent their profits, but will prevent smaller competitors from breaching the wide moats they have established over the years.
      The only problem for these manufacturers would be if the EU were to erect barriers to trade with the UK. So it would be better for them to ask Brussels not to do so.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

      The point is that only 6% of those legal entities in the UK export part of their output to the rest of the EU, and yet some of them are being allowed to determine government policy not just for themselves and for all of the 6% but more importantly for the 94% who do not even export to the EU.

    • Pragmatist
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 3:15 pm | Permalink

      Newmania
      ” ideologically Nationalist rabble rousers” I guess you would suggest if we “do not have bread we should eat cakes “

    • Edward2
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

      Multi nationals have no concerns for nations or very much concern for employees.
      They exist only in the middle of oceans.
      Some are as big as major nations.
      The EU is in thrall to them.
      Profits before people.
      Yet you liberal lefties love them.
      Very odd

      • Puffer Fish
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:32 pm | Permalink

        Are you sure? EU is making Apple pay €13bn to Ireland in unpaid taxes. And the (most hated here) GDPR is an attempt by EU to restrict the amount of data collected (for free but then sold later to other companies) by the GAFAs (Google, Amazon, Facebook, Apple, …).
        A rather funny way to be in thrall, specially when it was the UK who in 2014-15 was trying to prevent GDPR. Very odd, indeed.

        • libertarian
          Posted July 16, 2018 at 8:52 am | Permalink

          Puffer Fish

          You are correct the EU hates Apple, FB, Google, Microsoft VAT MOSS GDPR and the even more laughable Article 13 are attempts to shut them down. The reason that the EU is at war with the new digital business arena is that the EU is firmly locked into the past. Big multinational corporations in cars, ships and agriculture etc. The EU is so far behind the digital curve as to be laughable. Also notice NONE of the companies the EU is attacking are European

          Meanwhile the EU is now fully in charge of Irelands tax policy

    • NickC
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

      Newmania, Until you can come up with sound reasons why it is impossible for the UK to be independent of the EU, and as prosperous as Japan or New Zealand, you have no case.

      • Andy
        Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:17 pm | Permalink

        Good point.

        Both Japan and New Zealand have lower GDP per capita than us.

        As your Brexit will make us poorer there is no reasons at why it can’t make us like them.

        • Edward2
          Posted July 16, 2018 at 9:23 am | Permalink

          More fake news from you Andy
          GDP per capita 2016 in US dollars…
          UK 39,899
          New Zealand 39,426
          Japan 38,894
          So lower by a few hundred dollars
          Whereas
          France 36,854
          Spain 26,528
          Italy 30,527
          Maybe by remainin in the EU instead of having a similar GDP per capita to Japan and New Zealand we will have a similar figure to France Spain and Italy

          • hans christian ivers
            Posted July 18, 2018 at 9:44 pm | Permalink

            or Denmark, Sweden HollAND, aUSTRIA lUX OR GREMANY

    • Anonymous
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:12 pm | Permalink

      What rabble ?

      The only rabble I’ve seen are such as those flying an orange blimp in a nappy but hey, that’s OK. They’re on the right side of history. *sarcasm*

      You ignored us time and time and time again over mass immigration.

      Over years, nay decades, we put together an alternative vote and used the ballot box both peacefully and patiently to try to get you to listen to us and despite all of this you’re not listening still.

      Instead you have switched to anti democracy and insult. Both you and Andy have dehumanised us with your offensive labels. Just where do you think this is going to go next ?

      Please do not make the mistake that Brexit voters are old and physically weak, or that they don’t have long to live. You keep telling us we’re all knuckle dragging thugs, after all. So stop pushing. You will not win.

      Prepare for Corbyn (we’ll never vote for May) and we’ll see where this all ends up afterwards.

      Staying in the EU after all this is idiotic. We will be finished anyway. We cannot be forgiven and must be shown to suffer.

  59. ian
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 1:15 pm | Permalink

    The government must have the right of signing a deal taken away from them, no more unless deals, word of mouth only going forward and if others don’t like it they will just have to lump it.
    How leaving the EU ended up with them trying to sign a new treaty, nobody said anything about signing a new treaty.

    The government have done more damage to this country by signing a treaty than anything else over the years, world war one and two, CO2, to name some and can do without FOX running around making deals only find out he and they have dropped you in it again.
    They have treaty again with Poland like in 1938 that if Russia steps a foot into Poland you are automatically at war with Russia.

    This BS has got to come to a stop, Poland is protected by NATO, This and the other UK government of the pasted just around committing you and signing you up to any old thing to try and make out that they are leading world, they haven’t even got a pot to piss in without raising taxes more. They the government are going around signing everybody life and rights away, that all.

  60. MikeW
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 1:28 pm | Permalink

    Only goes to show nobody want’s that job as PM at the moment..except maybe Corbyn..so May is safe for present..however you’d wonder why would anyone want it anyway..looks loke a hopeless thankless task..if the Torys at the top spent as much time and effort fighting for the country as they do jockying for position then we could be a great country..but alas..and so that is why civil servants step in..jusg look at Northern Ireland..am afraid UK itself as an entity is on it’s last legs..hardly the fault of the EU

    • rose
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

      I should say Hammond, Hunt, Javid, Boris, Penny Mordaunt, Amber Rudd, Gove, and Raab would be more than happy to take the position. There will be more.

  61. mancunius
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

    Ah, you again, under yet another name, so transparently easy to identify. I don’t know why you bother – waste of your time and ours.

  62. Mick
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 2:29 pm | Permalink

    What happened to the no deal is better than a bad deal, go against the wishes of the 17.4million and growing and the Tory’s and labour will be unelectable for years, you have been warn , your bosses US don’t want to be in any way tied to the dying Eu, what part don’t you understand, it’s straight forward get us out with no strings or any chance of a political party taking us back in without our permission

  63. mancunius
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 2:30 pm | Permalink

    I agree entirely with what JR says about the civil service, which has become politically biased and subject to incestuous and arrogant group-think over the past three or four decades.
    It needs reining in.
    As to Mrs May, she should be re-named ‘Mrs Might-Have-But-Never-Intended-To’.

  64. The Prangwizard
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 3:03 pm | Permalink

    Can Mr Redwood confirm that he still has confidence in Mrs May personally and as PM and party leader and that she has his full support. It must be assumed to be the case as he still refuses to send in a letter as far as I know. Party comes first as ever.

    His political life’s work is being betrayed but he does not act. Where does that leave the rest of us? I wasn’t a UKIPer but we all should go there now – the streets as well.

  65. Iain Gill
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

    More than anything it amazes me how different the views of the political and journalistic classes are from the vast majority of people in the real world. It is surely not sustainable for our supposed leadership to be so far apart from us.

  66. Dead Roman Senator
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

    A few remoaners argued the Referendum voting paper did not include this and did not mean that.
    It sure as dixie didn’t include argumentum ad temperantium as Mrs May frames, crafts words for the gallery of her total betrayal of democracy and British people

  67. Denis Cooper
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 3:33 pm | Permalink

    I didn’t want to try the patience of the editor by rushing to send yet another letter to the Maidenhead Advertiser, but I have been left with no choice:

    “Dear Sir

    I was saddened to see our Prime Minister write this in a Sunday newspaper:

    “I am yet to see a workable alternative future trading arrangement that would deliver on our commitments to Northern Ireland, preserve the constitutional integrity of the UK and deliver on the result of the referendum.”

    Clearly she has not been keeping up with her most excellent local newspaper, and in particular this lively Viewpoint section in which readers, her constituents, often put forward interesting ideas.

    Moreover realising that she has many demands on her time I had exercised my prerogative as a constituent and directly sent her a copy of my most recent letter on this subject, which you were kind enough to publish on July 5th under the heading:

    “The solution to the Irish border question”

    And not only did I receive an acknowledgement from her assistant, but unlike M D Geary last week I also had an assurance that:

    “Theresa is grateful that you have taken the time to forward your thoughts and she has taken them on board”.

    Well, perhaps she had, in a way, subconsciously, insofar as her White Paper says that only those EU rules on goods which are “necessary to provide for frictionless trade at the border” will continue to apply after we have left the EU.

    Obviously goods which are only circulating within the UK and are not sent to the border for export to the EU cannot possibly create any friction at said border, so should it not follow that they will not need to comply with EU rules?

    Yours etc”

  68. Sir Joe Soap
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:07 pm | Permalink

    Following a wishy-washy e-mail sent to any constituents who were questioning his position here in the week, Robert Courts MP for Witney has now quit the government.

    Mission (part) accomplished.

    Keep on keeping on to your local MPs – it has an effect.

  69. Alastair McIntyre
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

    Living in Canada and watching all the Brexit discussions it is actually quite hard to get to the facts about Brexit. My only TV news service in Canada is from the BBC so of course I keep seeing all the anti-Brexit content. I have to subscribe to various blogs to get pro Brexit views.

    Each week I post up a weekly newsletter and do a video introduction to it on YouTube. I am convinced that leaving the EU on WTO terms is the right deal for Britain and so I reflect my views in my newsletter.

    My site is mainly to do with the history of Scotland and the Scots at home and abroad. I know that Scotland when joining with England and Wales had just come out of the Darian debacle but some 50 years later we started to see remarkable profits through the enlightenment period and onward to the two world wars. Scots in particular did very well indeed through the expansion of the British Empire.

    Scots in America are only some 1% of the population although if you also take the Ulster Scots or Scots Irish as they are referred to in America we’re more like 3%. However some 10% of all millionaires in America trace back to Scottish roots.

    In Canada some 15% of the population are of Scots descent and in many ways is more Scottish than Scotland. In Canada we retain much of the culture that has been lost in Scotland and indeed are often invited back to Scotland for them to re-learn their old culture. Step Dancing is one such cultural item that thrives in Nova Scotia but was totally lost in Scotland.

    The point I am making here is that in North America we see an enormous upside in Britain leaving the EU and can’t understand the lack of pride in Britain as being capable of doing well outside the EU. Trump hinted strongly that the Chequers deal would likely scupper a meaningful free trade deal with the USA and likewise deals with Canada, Australia and New Zealand and the rest of the world.

    In my view it is the Civil Service which is causing the issues and the lack of any back bone by ministers in dealing with them.

    I have continued to talk up the fantastic opportunities the Commonwealth countries offer Britain and indeed Dyson is very much pro Commonwealth. Most large African countries are in the Commonwealth and with progress being made with an African Free Trade zone the opportunities for Britain are enormous.

    So from my perspective I see only great opportunities for Britain outside the EU and all I see is Britain being humiliated by the EU and continuing to be fearful. It’s time people in Britain got some back bone and to grasp the opportunities that the people voted for. Time for May to go as she’s proving to be the worst Prime Minister in our history. I think Churchill is turning in his grave right now. I mean how humiliating is it that May had to get Germany’s approval before presenting the deal to the cabinet

  70. DancerJ
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

    Nellie the elephant packed her trunk and said goodbye to the circus.. g’bye Trump..hope you don’t come by here again forva long time

    • graham1946
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

      I think he didn’t really wanted to in the first place. Why should he? Merkel is toast, May is toast, Macron is out of his depth. Who else is there to talk to other than Her Majesty who cannot say anything useful? He said Putin will be easier to deal with because he has power whereas the others no longer do.

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:50 pm | Permalink

      @Dancerj. Oh dear, perhaps you’d be better watching Dumbo again.

  71. Simon Coleman
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:03 pm | Permalink

    You say ‘The civil service have helped talk the remaining Ministers into a policy which does not amount to leaving the EU.’ Is there any real evidence for this apart from the late circulation of papers to ministers and the ‘background’ to Davis’s resignation? We have people in the cabinet (Leadsom, Gove, Fox) who campaigned for Leave – the first two names were very prominent in the referendum. Is it credible that they allowed their views to be changed by civil servants to support something that is nothing like what they campaigned for? Either they enjoy being in office or they have reached a judgement (their own) that a No Deal Brexit is a terrible option.

  72. graham1946
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:03 pm | Permalink

    Mrs. May says it it her deal or NO Brexit at all. Think about that – it seems to have gone by without media attention. This is an open invitation for the EU to turn it down knowing she wants us to stay in and will try to do so without further reference to the people. UKIP is in the ascendancy again. Look out Tories, they frightened you into a referendum you didn’t want, this time they will slaughter you if she fulfills this threat and Farage comes back.

  73. Steve
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:12 pm | Permalink

    This is just typical, found on the net;

    ‘petition to remove Theresa May as British Prime Minister’……rejected by the government on the grounds that petitions are for appointments.

    This angers me, who the hell does the woman think she is !

  74. Andy
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

    I am, quite literally, crying with laughter. With Brexit you guys have basically created the greatest sitcom of all time. A revolving cast of clowns, malcontents and general all round ridiculousness and madness.

    Can I suggest we make The Surfari’s ‘Wipe Out’ the official song of this Tory hard-right pensioner Brexit farce? Because a wipe out is precisely what is coming to your party at an election soon….

    • libertarian
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 7:34 pm | Permalink

      Andy

      You seen to completely misunderstand that the Tories will as you say be wiped out at the next election because they HAVE NOT done what they were told to do by the electorate.. Leave the EU.

      We’re all laughing at you Andy

    • L Jones
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:07 pm | Permalink

      Gleeful at the idea of your country failing or suffering in some way, Andy? Just so that you can say ”I told you so”. How shameless you are.

      Do you inspire admiration in anyone? Even your children will one day be ashamed of you.

    • Edward2
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:51 pm | Permalink

      You get more simplistic childish and ridiculous with every post Andy.
      Argument and political debate is good.
      Even your views, when properly put, are worth reading.
      But you are now sounding like some student at a bar after a few beers

    • Anonymous
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:11 pm | Permalink

      “hard-right pensioner ”

      Objection to the editor. This is fomentation of hatred etc

      We would not allow it directed at any other group and quite rightly so.

    • rose
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

      The anti-democratic remainiacs have created this situation with their sabotage. It is a national tragedy.

    • Oggy
      Posted July 15, 2018 at 11:19 pm | Permalink

      I agree with you for once. Corbyn will be the next PM, which means your higher rate of income tax will go up, your council tax will go up – all to pay for his Marxist policies (which incidentally are not allowed under EU state aid rules.)

      Remember Liam Byrne ? he was the Chief Secretary to the Treasury in Gordon Brown’s Government and is known for leaving the now infamous note for his Conservative successor upon his departure saying “I’m afraid there is no money left! ‘’
      Venezuela here we come – enjoy !
      Poetic justice for you snowflakes.

      • Andy
        Posted July 16, 2018 at 7:44 am | Permalink

        I am not an ‘anti-democratic’ remainiac. I am exercising my EU guaranteed right to free speech. I can think what I like, say what I like and vote how I like. Best of all I can laugh at you all!

        You all make the mistake of confusing Brexit with Britain. I want Britain to succeed, to thrive. And that is why I want Brexit to fail – because it is the most backward thing this country has ever done. It is one of the most backward things any country has ever done.

        We have MPs to make complex decisions on our behalf. Their job is to understand minutiae, detail and law. Most of them do – which is why, despite the EU’s imperfections, mostly Parliamentarians understand we are better in than out.

        Permanently handing sole decision making powers over complicated trade and foreign policy matters to semi-literate bigoted pensioners is not the way to run a country.

        • Edward2
          Posted July 17, 2018 at 7:00 am | Permalink

          You are being rather unfair to the House of Lords again.

  75. Borderfox
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

    If you’re looking for a weather vane..lonly look to the DUP..already there is a distinct sign of nervousness about them..for when the government falls, and it will, they are toast..not only in London but especially in NI..no doubt Sinn Fein will overtake them at the GE and with the help of friends in the labour party bring about the last part of the jig saw..a united ireland..within the EU

  76. Anonymous
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 9:06 pm | Permalink

    This in reply to Newmania.

  77. Chris
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    Perhaps there is hope with the Conservatives yet? I haven’t read all as behind the paywall, but ….
    The rest of the world believes in Britain. It’s time that we did too
    By
    Boris Johnson
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/15/rest-world-believes-britain-time-did/

  78. Lindsay McDougall
    Posted July 15, 2018 at 11:32 pm | Permalink

    You are still not identifying what needs to be done in the political arena if we are to achieve the ‘hard’, i.e. the proper, Brexit that 52% of the country voted for. It is possible that Mrs May, after input from the European Union and the Labour Party to make her idiotic ‘soft’ Brexit even softer, will be able to get it on the Statute Book. Their parliamentary numbers may be enough.

    In order to overturn such an agreement, there needs at the next General Election to be a political party that offers a hard Brexit and attracts the 52% of the electorate that voted Leave. It will need to embrace Conservative Euro-sceptics, UKIP members and the small band of Labour Euro-sceptics led by Kate Hoey. This group should be preparing its manifesto now. Don’t wait; be pro-active, not re-active.

  79. robert lewy
    Posted July 16, 2018 at 8:16 am | Permalink

    Words,words, words

    Brexit means Brexit ( tautology)

    But

    Brexit may mean Brexit ( a choice!)
    May Brexit means Brexit ( tautology?)

    Or

    Brexit means No May (aspirational)

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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