Let’s thank the Irish PM for showing us how absurd Project Fear has become

There are international agreements allowing overflights. Irish planes will still fly over the UK once we have left, and UK planes will still fly over Ireland. BA is of course part of IAG, an Anglo Spanish  company with a headquarters in Madrid,  so does the Irish PM anyway not see that as an EU company that will carry on flying?

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305 Comments

  1. Mark B
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 6:18 am | Permalink

    Good morning- again.

    The PM’s capitulation seems to have pleased the Irish Government enough for them to sit back and relax. It seems that the UK will not have to make them compete for our market after all.

    • Stephen Priest
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:22 am | Permalink

      This is all a frustrating waste of time.

      A comprehensive free trade deal would have satisfied most Leave voters and a large proportion of Remains voters (not unelected Remain Civil Servants, unelected Remain Lords, or ultra Remain MPs).

      A Brexit Believer PM would have look at existing Free Trade Deals and told the EU what we wanted from the start.

      The negotiations would have been short and sweet: ” This or take off Mr Barnier.”

      No €40 billion ransom money, no Irish Border nonsense, no ECJ, no Customs “Partnership”, no humiliation of the United Kingdom and best of all no sneering Juncker, Merkel or Macron.

      • Hope
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

        JR, we read today we are to get weekly scare stories from No. 10, why? Is the next part of her strategy to force us to stay in altogether or referendum2?

      • Andy
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

        Yeah – except your policy is incoherent.

        We currently do not have an Irish border issue because we’re in the single market and customs union.

        You want to leave those – which is fine. But leaving both makes the border an issue unless some sort of new arrangement can be reached.

        You literally voted for a hard border. The Vote Leave cheats may not have told you this but it doesn’t make it any less true.

        • Edward2
          Posted July 20, 2018 at 8:59 pm | Permalink

          Not true.
          The UK as an independent nation can have whatever border arrangements it likes with its neighbours.
          If the UK decides it wants open borders with tariff free trade why are you so afraid?

        • Anonymous
          Posted July 20, 2018 at 9:48 pm | Permalink

          I relish a hard border. It’s exactly what I voted for.

        • Weathervane
          Posted July 21, 2018 at 4:28 am | Permalink

          I do agree. I voted leave in good faith, having been promised the UK was in such a strong position there would be no difficult consequences. I now feel I was not told the truth by men like Jacob Rees Mogg. In fact Brexit is a lot more complex and costly than we were ever told

          • Edward2
            Posted July 21, 2018 at 6:43 am | Permalink

            Only because we are trying to stay half in weathervane.
            Leaving is easy.

          • NickC
            Posted July 21, 2018 at 7:43 am | Permalink

            Weathervane, Leave has been made a lot more complex than it need be by Remain here in the UK. This has played into the hands of the EU which hates the UK. It’s a vicious Remain circle. Don’t like it? – Remain is to blame.

            We should have left by giving 12 months diplomatic notice, without negotiating a trade deal with the EU, instead using recognised international agreements like the WTO, as I originally suggested. Then the only problems would be adjusting to the fact that the EU would become like the USA is for us, for trade.

          • Anonymous
            Posted July 21, 2018 at 7:56 am | Permalink

            Interesting. The recent march in London for a second referendum achieved only 70,000 marchers.

            From a potential 16 million or so who voted Remain and a potential 17 odd million who Voted Leave but who now feel cheated.

            70,000 out of 33 million or so. 8 million of those in the Remain capital of Britain.

            Are you sure that Weathervane is an appropriate handle for you ?

          • alan jutson
            Posted July 21, 2018 at 8:49 am | Permalink

            Weathervane

            Its only more complicated because we have a remain politician in charge calling the shots, who really does not want to properly leave.

            The simple solution is to leave fully, and then trade under World Trade Organisation terms where the rules are already set out, even the EU are members of WTO and trade under this scheme with many other non EU Countries around the World, so how could they complain.
            This was the simple solution suggested by the Leave campaign during the referendum campaign, which would have avoided all of this present complication.

          • James Matthews
            Posted July 21, 2018 at 9:50 am | Permalink

            Didn’t read the booklet thoughtfully provided by a helpful government at taxpayers expense then? Your claimed change of heart demonstrates that your online name is well chosen.

        • Stephen Priest
          Posted July 21, 2018 at 8:44 am | Permalink

          My policy is simple:

          Vote Leave – take back control.

          The Remainer Politicians policy is this:

          Vote Leave – but only on terms agreed by France and Germany, a help them every step of the way in their goals.

        • libertarian
          Posted July 21, 2018 at 8:51 am | Permalink

          Andy

          Oh know yet another knowledge fail from you.

          Look up the CTA , its been in place since 1923

    • Hope
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 9:59 am | Permalink

      JR, I suggest youmreadmStuart Jackson’ interview in ConHome to see how vile May really is. Serious,questions need to be asked of her and she should be ousted post haste on her behaviour alone. How can civil servants make contact and/or offers as a supplicant nation without ministerial control by the department in charge of it? Moreover having been caught out on record claiming their KitKat policy to hide true costs and ties to the EU. Any normal person would have alarm bells going off in their head, not giving the head of this a £20,000 bonus!

    • Sir Joe Soap
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

      No, her capitulation has made them try to push home their advantage against Mrs Weak and Wobbly. Please topple this woman. She used to just be a joke, with her silly lines and dithering. Now we’ve had enough out here. We’re not laughing any more. We need somebody serious.

      • Timaction
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 3:38 pm | Permalink

        Indeed. The more we see and hear her it makes me sick. Our so called Prime Minister who has colluded with other EU heads of State no doubt the Commission, Robins and others to prepare her plans and white paper in secret. At the same time allowing Mr Davis to carry on with her previous red lines and speeches drawing up a different white paper. Then ambush them at Chequers, making all sorts of threats!!!
        She is a lying traitor who has betrayed our Nation, a National embarrassment. She is not fit to hold her office and must go!!!

        • Hope
          Posted July 20, 2018 at 8:35 pm | Permalink

          As Michael Portillo states on TV the Tory party members think she has betrayed them from treachery.
          Stewart Jackson writing about her again in the DT tonight.

          JR, if there is no deal will the backstop for the Irish border come into play i.e. All the U.K. remains in the customs union until a solution is found? Or does it wither on the vine because the punishment will disappear and leave in its entirety come March 2019?

          I would like to know what possible underhand route May might be planning with her dishonest KitKat civil servants. After this might be her way of keeping the U.K. In the EU if she I spoke ousted.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 6:40 pm | Permalink

        Indeed weak, wobbly, rather dim, a total electoral liability and totally dishonest with it too it seems. With a compass that is 180 degree out on nearly every single issue (not just Brexit) but the economy, climate alarmism, criminal justice, taxation, law and order, selective immigration, the self employed, employment laws, HS2, Hinckley C, the energy agenda, gender pay, choice of Chancellor, the appalling NHS …… does she get anything right at all? Well I suppose the Swansea Lagoon was eventually cancelled. Loads of stationary and idiotic wind turbines depreciating daily during this hot spell I see. Hundreds just off the Brighton Coast that we are all paying for.

        • Hope
          Posted July 20, 2018 at 8:37 pm | Permalink

          We read Hammond wants EU immigrants to be given preferential treatment! He really is a tosser about leaving the EU.

        • Sir Joe Soap
          Posted July 20, 2018 at 9:33 pm | Permalink

          Quite stupid to go to the very place which your (supposed) opponent in negotiations is focussed on to give a speech giving the whole false issue more publicity. Mind-numbingly stupid.

        • Fedupsoutherner
          Posted July 20, 2018 at 9:43 pm | Permalink

          LL.. Yes, hundreds of onshore turbines doing nothing in Scotland too but we are to get even bigger ones to replace the useless ones we have now. If there’s no wind for the small ones then having larger ones won’t help.

  2. Lifelogic
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 6:22 am | Permalink

    Indeed he is being absurd. Who (someone in the EU one assumes) is pulling his strings?

    • Tad Davison
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:17 am | Permalink

      LL,

      I have thought that about quite a number of British politicians too, past Prime Ministers included. There are certainly people with deep pockets who want us to have a second referendum, yet no-one seems to question their involvement or their motives, least of all, to hold them to account.

      I would like to be more specific, but alas, I doubt if it would get past the moderator, so I depend upon the ability of my fellow contributors to read between the lines.

      Tad

      • Lifelogic
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

        Let’s try Major, Brown and Blair are appalling failures who are and were nearly always wrong on every issue. Cameron too, but at least he is now sensibly fairly quiet. This after his appalling & gross dereliction of duty in not preparing for Brexit nor issuing the notice the next day and just pathetically abandoning the ship’s bridge.

    • Stephen Priest
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

      Leo Varadkar would be out of his depth in the shallow end.

      • Jason Wells
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:23 pm | Permalink

        Stephen Priest..There’s no point in taking pot shots at the irish pm, the irish are only one of 27..our argument is with brussels..so better keep focused and not allow the Sun distract us from whats important

  3. Newmania
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 6:23 am | Permalink

    The point you have missed is that this enraged outburst shows just how furious Ireland is with a UK that has deliberately acted to wreck its economy and peace
    There is long history of English arrogance towards Ireland and it is entirely typical of John Redwood to have forgotten how appalling the consequences have been.

    • zorro
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:04 am | Permalink

      Nothing that we proposed would have hurt Eire at all. It is the EU’s and Varadkar’s own arrogance and intransigence which have exacerbated and amplified the tension which need not be there at all regarding the border. Does he think that his attitude encourages good relations?

      zorro

    • Richard1
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:17 am | Permalink

      There is no need for Brexit to wreck Ireland’s economy unless the EU decides to start a trade war. The U.K. will not start one. If there is a sensible FTA things will continue as now – where’s the problem?

    • Know-Dice
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:20 am | Permalink

      Last I heard was that the ROI was an EU member, why are they not selling their products to the 500 million consumers in other parts of the EU?, rather than relying on 85% of their trade going through the UK and 65% of their trade going to the UK?

    • David Price
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:30 am | Permalink

      The UK referendum was a democratic act to seek our independence from the EU not a deliberate act to damage Ireland or any other country. We have not demanded other members become independent whereas the EU has made concerted attempts to remove NI from the UK. In any case the Irish economy is controlled by the EU and will depend on their decisions and actions impacting UK policy.

      That said, the posturing by Irish politicians during this process has influenced my opinion and I refuse to buy Irish goods and services at the moment., One consequence is we don’t currently buy beef from Asda and I am reviewing my investments.

    • libertarian
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 8:30 am | Permalink

      Newmania

      No it shows that Leo Varadkar is another in the long line of total incompetent and ignorant EU fan boys.

      If you really think that getting angry with by far your biggest and best customer is a good strategy it explains a lot about you too.

      I also think you are a disgusting human being for trying to politicise a historically awful set of events just to score a political point on a web forum

      • Anonymous
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

        +1.

        Anglo/Irish history is far from one sided.

      • hans christian ivers
        Posted July 21, 2018 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

        unnecessary use of the English language

        • libertarian
          Posted July 22, 2018 at 10:31 am | Permalink

          hans

          Sentences in English start with a capital letter . Still I’m glad you’ve found a job you can do now, English teacher .

          Anything to contribute to the debate? No thought not . What is the point of you being on here ?

    • Woody
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 8:41 am | Permalink

      How is making a democratic decision to leave the eu in any way a deliberate attempt to wreck another nations economy ? I thought the remain argument was the uk was insignificant and would be the one to suffer !

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

        And moreover to leave the EU through a withdrawal clause which the UK government at the time did not really want to have put into the EU treaties, and which only came into effect after the Irish government had forced the Irish people to vote in a second referendum on the Lisbon Treaty …

    • Hilarie Williams
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 8:42 am | Permalink

      Somehow autocorrect changed is to isn’t above – no edit facility

    • Wessexboy
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 9:25 am | Permalink

      The Irish chose their own version of Brexit in leaving the UK some time ago. A considerable amount of Irish blood was shed in the process. They continue to depend on us economically whilst an angry faction still threatens to disrupt peace. This has nothing to do with Brexit.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 9:26 am | Permalink

      Which UK is that? Could you mean the one which volunteered bilateral loans on very favourable terms to help Ireland out of the economic mess it had got itself into, largely through its decision to join the euro? A real economic mess which really occurred, with real GDP losses over less than three years which were about three times the magnitude of the IMF’s most recent totally unreliable predictions for the potential GDP losses for Ireland over twelve years, if the UK was to leave the EU without any special trade deal thanks to Irish intransigence?

      Here’s the chart of Irish per capita GDP between 2005 and 2015:

      https://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/ireland-econ-growth.png

      and 36 divided by 41 = 0.88, so a 12% loss – which of course nobody, not even the wonderful IMF, had ever predicted – compared to the current IMF prediction of a 4% GDP loss if the UK is unable to secure a sensible trade deal with the EU.

      • Matt
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 6:26 pm | Permalink

        We didn’t vote to have special trade deals with yhem, wr just voted to leave

    • Blue and Gold
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 9:53 am | Permalink

      I totally agree with you. The absolutely appalling way that the UK (England in particular) has treated Ireland over the centuries, millions left to die or emigrate to the USA in the potato famine etc.

      I think it is great that the Taoiseach has put forward this idea of banning UK flights in Irish airspace and hopefully it will have the backing of the Oireachtas.

      Just because Brexiteers wish to wreck the UK economy, why on earth should our friends in Ireland suffer.

      Good luck to the Eire in their fight against the arrogant English .

      • Edward2
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

        Your ridiculous rant B and G reminds me of Life of Brian where the old rebels say what have the Romans done for us.

        • Blue and Gold
          Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

          Usual nonsense from you Edward2.

          • Edward2
            Posted July 20, 2018 at 9:01 pm | Permalink

            Not a very good argument in reply B and G.
            You go back centuries to drag up a weak connection with events in 2018
            Not impressed.

      • Gary C
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 3:41 pm | Permalink

        Blue and Gold
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 9:53 am | Permalink
        I totally agree with you. The absolutely appalling way that the UK (England in particular) has treated Ireland over the centuries, millions left to die or emigrate to the USA in the potato famine etc.

        I think it is great that the Taoiseach has put forward this idea of banning UK flights in Irish airspace and hopefully it will have the backing of the Oireachtas.

        Just because Brexiteers wish to wreck the UK economy, why on earth should our friends in Ireland suffer.

        Good luck to the Eire in their fight against the arrogant English .

        • Gary C
          Posted July 20, 2018 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

          @ Blue and Gold

          Oh dear how pathetic, ignorant and stupid!

          It’s comments like this that really show you up, while there is a minority who want to fan the flames of the past living their lives in hatred and bitterness the vast majority of Irish do not and prefer to look forward and get on with their lives.

          And as for Varadaka and his EU puppet masters banning UK flight in Irish airspace that is total rubbish as has been the vast proportion of remains fear campaign, I suggest you do some homework on the issue to verify that.

          And thirdly, you obviously are no friend of Ireland, if you were you would not be mouthing off such rubbish.

          • Blue and Gold
            Posted July 21, 2018 at 10:03 am | Permalink

            A totally ignorant garbage reply.

        • Edward2
          Posted July 20, 2018 at 9:03 pm | Permalink

          Dave Spart lives!

          • Edward2
            Posted July 21, 2018 at 6:46 am | Permalink

            I was referring to the ridiculous post by b and g not you Gary.

      • Anonymous
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

        English peasants suffered too !

      • Mike Wilson
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

        I think it is great that the Taoiseach has put forward this idea of banning UK flights in Irish airspace and hopefully it will have the backing of the Oireachtas.

        Would you like directions to the nearest kindergarten?

        • Matt
          Posted July 20, 2018 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

          He never said such a thing..he merely pointed out that there could be difficulties in various areas like air travel and medicines, banking etc

        • Blue and Gold
          Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:52 pm | Permalink

          You must be joking…that’s where or you Brexmoaners are!!

      • Dominic Johnson
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

        How does a nation with no airforce plan to stop overflights?

        • Blue and Gold
          Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:54 pm | Permalink

          Ignorance…it has an Aircorp and 2 of it’s aircraft were on display at Fairford last w/end.

          • libertarian
            Posted July 21, 2018 at 8:56 am | Permalink

            Blue & Gold

            Ha ha ha , it has a couple of helicopters and some small prop cesnas . You are a total joke.

            So you know the facts. The RAF patrol Irish airspace to keep it safe and provide long range helicopter rescue services , the RNLI provide rescue services at sea.

            Grow up

          • a-tracy
            Posted July 23, 2018 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

            Libertarian, do we do these patrols and rescue services for free or do we charge Ireland for these services provided by British taxpayers?

            I read that Ireland also does not contribute 2% of its GDP to defence, I wonder why?

            Don’t they have their cake and eat it all of the time with the UK, able to vote in our Country.

            Is Ryanair Irish? They too joining in with threats today, saying UK shareholders won’t get equal voting rights after Brexit, I’ll be writing to my share investing companies to insist they get out of shares in this company asap thanks for the forewarning. Don’t companies in Dublin get the benefit of much lower corporation taxes, yet the EU today say we would have competitive advantages well what about Ireland? Perhaps Northern Ireland should have the same corporation taxes as Dublin. Everyone condemns Trump for his threats and twitter rants yet we hear much worse on a daily basis that goes ignored.

      • John C.
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

        Your third paragraph alone indicates your total lack of common sense. What a very silly statement.

        • Blue and Gold
          Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:55 pm | Permalink

          A very realistic statement. Total lack of understanding by a Berxmoaner.

      • Qubus
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

        I presume that you are referring to the great Potato Famine. It is rather foolish to compare the situation now with that of a hundred years ago. At that time, many people in England were half-starved.

        • Blue and Gold
          Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:57 pm | Permalink

          Read up on Irish history!!

          • Anonymous
            Posted July 21, 2018 at 8:05 am | Permalink

            Written by whom ?

            Protestant England had Catholics stabbing it front and back and jumping from above.

            The English were the first to choose to pay lip service to Christianity and turn towards the black arts, the sciences.

            It wasn’t arrogance that lead to these things but a matter of survival.

      • Jagman84
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

        Eire airspace is totally surrounded by UK airspace so not much of a threat. A reciprocal action would definitely be effective!

      • libertarian
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

        Blue & Gold

        Your post tells us all we need to know about your total lack of awareness

        If Ireland could ban the UK from its airspace ( which they can’t) this would be the effect

        There would be no air traffic from Ireland

        1) All Irish planes fly through UK airspace when leaving Ireland

        2) Ireland has no air force worthy of the name, so the RAF patrol Irish airspace for them

        3) UK air trafic control , control airspace in the North Atlantic

        You(people ed)need to get acquainted with reality

    • DaveM
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:20 am | Permalink

      But aren’t we always being told that it’s the EU which ensures prosperity and peace? As usual your argument is as empty as a political promise.

    • Edward2
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:20 am | Permalink

      How can you possibly claim the UK has tried to wreck the economy of the Republic of Ireland?
      The wish of the UK is for a deal with no hard borders and a wish for tariff free frictionless trade.
      Tjat suddenly becomes in your mind a negative.
      Very strange.

    • Nick
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:21 am | Permalink

      The Irish PM diminishes himself every time he opens his mouth.
      How did we treat Ireland once it cleaved itself from the UK? Pretty well. And did we hesitate to advance them a loan when their economy had all but collapsed? No. And have we consistently acted to support the idea of a CTA and open border? Yes and yes. We have been more than fair with these eejits. One last thought: the Irish GDP/capita is higher than ours. This has been achieved on the back of Ireland’s sucking on the EU’s nipple while we, a net contributor, were expected to foot the bill.

    • James Matthews
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:53 am | Permalink

      What this enraged outburst shows is an infantile sense of entitlement.There is no moral obligation on the UK to trade with Ireland on terms dictated by the EU or the Irish Republic and what the Irish Government (and most of its people) fail to appreciate is that, since the establishment of the ROI. Irish citizens have been treated more favourably by the UK than anyone else in the Commonwealth, the EU, or elsewhere. It is to be hoped that this will now change.

    • Sir Joe Soap
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

      It wrecked its own economy with bizarre lending and low Euro interest rates.
      Then we helped it out.
      I think arrogance is laughing in the face of your saviour.

  4. formula57
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 6:29 am | Permalink

    Irish governments have a habit of making threats of this type it seems. A similar “no overfly” threat was met with a counter-threat of invasion by President Roosevelt during Wold War 2.

    • Gareth
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:22 am | Permalink

      Is that what weve come to? Makes threats of war to a neighbour that is just pointing out what it’s rights are?

      • Edward2
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

        Strange logic Gareth
        No one is making threats of war.
        You Remainers need to keep calm.

        • Blue and Gold
          Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:58 pm | Permalink

          As if you Brexmoaners are calm!!

          • Edward2
            Posted July 20, 2018 at 9:05 pm | Permalink

            Well I don’t need two exclamation marks every time I post.

          • Anonymous
            Posted July 21, 2018 at 8:07 am | Permalink

            Touche’

      • Woody
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

        Its Eire who are making the threats. Seems an infectious negotiating tactic of euers.

      • Andy
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

        If this silly mans threats were serious has he thought this through ? Virtually all flights from Ireland heading to Continental Europe overfly UK airspace, so that would mean very lengthy detours for all Irish aircraft when they are banned from UK airspace in a reciprocal act.

        • Edward2
          Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

          What would Southern Ireland do if planes flew over them at 40,000 feet up?
          Would you suggest they should shoot them down?

  5. eeyore
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 6:39 am | Permalink

    In The Times we learn that weekly “bundles” of warnings about a “disorderly Brexit” are to be dumped on us all summer. A senior civil servant tells MPs that ministers have to “balance” causing alarm with giving necessary advice.

    This mandarin and his colleagues have had two years to prepare. Among their duties is to advise ministers on planning for eventualities. It’s almost as if they wish to see maximum disruption so Brexit itself can be discredited.

    Well, it won’t wash. The public resent being taken for monkeys and will know where the blame properly lies. They will not take it kindly when knighthoods and peerages, CMGs and GCMGs are handed out to Whitehall wreckers.

    Among the more agreeable tasks of the leader of a newly independent and reinvigorated Britain will be to overhaul the personnel and practices of the senior Civil Service. There is much dead wood to prune. Trevelyan-style reforms are many decades overdue.

    • Gareth
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 8:34 am | Permalink

      I’m afraid the problem is all too often the other way. Ministers tend to have beautiful ideas, that are really simplistic flights of fancy, and then take offence when the ideas fail. So they blame anything else but themselves and their ideas, and civil servants are first in line. Too often, the Civil Service finds itself in a Cassandra-like situation: right, but ignored.

      Read “The Blunders of our Governments” by Anthony King, for a good assessment of why governments are poor at doing things.

      • eeyore
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

        Gareth — I have read it. King analyses the chronic failings of the Civil Service in The British Constitution which, with JR’s permission, I commend to you.

        It is depressing that HMG instinctively feels the need to “warn” us about Brexit. Why can’t they enthuse us, inspire us, hold out hope, soothe fears, explain our new opportunities, congratulate us on our miraculous escape?

        What a defeatist bunch of negative Nellies!

        • Gareth
          Posted July 20, 2018 at 9:32 pm | Permalink

          Well, clearly you haven’t read it. It’s primarily focussed on the political levels of government, which you ignore entirely.

      • Edward2
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

        If our negotiation positions are repeatedly refused by the EU you blame the UK
        Odd logic.

      • libertarian
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

        Gareth

        Er dear dear boy we already know Governments are really bad a doing things thats why we dont want to be governed by an unelected, incompetent government in Brussels. We’ve already got one, we dont need two

        • hans christian ivers
          Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:58 pm | Permalink

          we have one in the UK already and its supporters

          • libertarian
            Posted July 21, 2018 at 9:00 am | Permalink

            hans

            Can you not read? Thats what said…

        • Gareth
          Posted July 20, 2018 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

          And I think that’s a very reasonable position, with which I wouldn’t disagree.

    • John Fitzgerald
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 9:04 am | Permalink

      Yes but will the little Sir Humphrey Applebys allow this to happen. For far to long, it seems, the situation with the civil service has been a case of the tail wagging the dog! Most, if not all of them, need a reminder that they are the servant not the master!

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 9:42 am | Permalink

      It seems to me that this government is making itself into an enemy of the people it is supposed to be serving, by starting to wage a systematic propaganda war to defeat the decision made by the people in the referendum.

      For over two years it has deliberately allowed a constant stream of anti-Brexit propaganda to go completely unchallenged, and it has covertly added its own significant contributions to that stream – and with casual gross misuse of public resources in that process – and now it is openly coming out as our enemy.

      • Timaction
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 3:48 pm | Permalink

        Indeed and we all know it! They actually think we believe their conniving propaganda when we’re on Project Fear 3, 4 or 5. I’ve lost count!
        I’ve just read that Barnier isn’t happy with Mays plan as it will make us more competitive in services! It’s called independent. More capitulation is coming! Anger growing out here in the real world. Why am I paying taxes for our fool politicos!

    • Tad Davison
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:23 am | Permalink

      I wonder if we might yet see a ‘Sir Olly’ in May’s resignation speech?

      Tad

  6. Peter Wood
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 6:43 am | Permalink

    Do be careful Dr. Redwood, airspace is sovereign space, so they can “close” it any time, as could we. I refer you to Saudi Arabia and Qatar, of recent past.

    • Know-Dice
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:21 am | Permalink

      May be UK airspace should be closed to Ryan Air?

      Some would say that could be a good thing 🙁

    • Gareth
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:23 am | Permalink

      Quite. It’s not a message that Brexiteers appear to want to hear.

      • Qubus
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 4:51 pm | Permalink

        Maybe I am wrong, but didn’t the UK bail out Eire with a multi-billion loan at very favourable interest rates following the financial crisis in 2008? Talk about base ingratitude.
        Bring back Enda Kenny, a politicain with a bit of bottle.

        • Qubus
          Posted July 20, 2018 at 5:01 pm | Permalink

          Leo Varadkar is a politician with a hidden agenda that isn’t very well hidden.

    • L Jones
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 8:02 am | Permalink

      Mr Wood – surely you’re not suggesting that Ireland has a regime in any way comparable to those of Saudi and Qatar?

    • Lifelogic
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 8:15 am | Permalink

      Indeed, but why on earth would they want to?

    • libertarian
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 8:38 am | Permalink

      Peter Wood

      No, they can’t, well not without breaking the law. Ireland are signatories to The International Air Services Transit Agreement signed in 1944

      Oh and for what its worth most of Ireland airspace is controlled by UK air traffic control

    • Nick
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:23 am | Permalink

      Then so could we. O’Leary kindly take note.

    • a-tracy
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:24 am | Permalink

      Why can’t we just fly over Northern Ireland instead?
      The Irish would be much worse off if they start playing games with the UK, we could not allow their trucks to drive through the UK let alone their planes fly over our airspace, we could stop their freedom of movement of people with access to our votes and benefits, this is just all ridiculous and frankly would be a very serious act not one that should be lightly threatened. He is ruining Irelands relationship with the UK.

    • Tad Davison
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:26 am | Permalink

      Peter,

      Their good will towards the UK is important, just as our good will in buying Irish goods is also important.

      Tad

    • acorn
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 11:08 am | Permalink

      No Deal means:

      Air carriers of the United Kingdom will no longer enjoy traffic rights under any
      air transport agreement to which the Union is a party, be it to or from the territory
      of the United Kingdom, be it to or from the territory of any of the EU Member
      States.

      And: Air carriers of the EU Member States will no longer enjoy traffic rights to or from
      the territory of the United Kingdom granted to Union carriers by a third country
      under any air transport agreement to which the Union is a party.

      • Edward2
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

        Unless the agreements are just carried forward.
        It is becoming Project Fear’s modern version of the millennium bug

        • Denis Cooper
          Posted July 20, 2018 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

          Or just pretend that the agreement is continuing anyway … there was quite a long period when everybody was pretending that Croatia was in the EEA when it wasn’t, nobody was much bothered:

          http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2016/08/06/the-snare-of-the-single-market/#comment-827568

          “Here’s a rather funny thing I happened to find out this morning: even though it joined the EU more than three years ago Croatia is not yet part of the EEA, in the strictest legal terms … “

      • Anonymous
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 3:51 pm | Permalink

        2 years our Remain leader has had to sort this out.

        • Edward2
          Posted July 21, 2018 at 6:50 am | Permalink

          The EU has refused to start talks about this issue for two years.

      • Qubus
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

        They said that leaving the EMF would be a calamity; they said that, due to the millenium bug, aircraft would be dropping out of the sky. Now it’s the EU.

      • libertarian
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

        acorn

        You might want to go and do a bit more research about international air space,, Oh and have a check on FIR regions for Air Traffic Control at both High and lower level air space

        • acorn
          Posted July 21, 2018 at 7:18 am | Permalink

          You are confusing fly over rights with cabotage rights.

          • libertarian
            Posted July 21, 2018 at 7:05 pm | Permalink

            acorn

            Nope.. The threat was about fly over. Do stick to the topic

    • Richard
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

      The EU27 haven’t said they are withdrawing from the ICAO’s International Air Services Transit Agreement … https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6821964/irish-pm-plane-ban-brexit-revenge/
      “British officials pointed out that freedoms of the air are not guaranteed by the EU, but a multilateral international treaty – the International Air Services Transit Agreement – signed from 1944 onwards, by 133 countries.

      “The only way Ireland can block British planes flying over it would be to pull out of the treaty, which it has been a signatory to since 1957. …

      “Alex Macheras, Aviation Analyst, said “It’s a ridiculous statement; and the reason why ICAO’s International Air Services Transit Agreement exists – of which Ireland are signatory – which ensures countries cannot simply ‘impose a ban’ on their airspace, and the treaty specifically states that countries are forbidden from discriminating against the nationality of an aircraft.” “

      • Tad Davison
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 5:12 pm | Permalink

        We tend to dismiss scare stories and alarmist nonsense. The Irish must surely know they would be the big loser in any tit-for-tat trade war.

    • Sir Joe Soap
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

      We can be selective in that respect, too. The difference is that Ireland have fewer weapons to shoot down enemy planes than does the UK. Also, Ireland isn’t protected by NATO. They’re skating on thin ice.

      • Mitchel
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

        What if they asked Mr Putin for assistance?Can you imagine the glee?

        • Pragmatist
          Posted July 28, 2018 at 9:59 am | Permalink

          Mr Putin and the Irish Leader have at least one thing in common.
          They both believe they have a right of a frictionless passage across another country’s border.

    • Mark
      Posted July 21, 2018 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

      Saudi Arabia is not a signatory to the international air transit agreement and it is therefore free to exclude whomever it wishes (as is Canada, which withdrew in 1988), but 133 countries are, including the UK and Ireland and I think all EU countries in their own right: the EU itself is not a signatory to that agreement. Signatories grant overflight rights to aircraft from all other signatories. If a country closes its airspace (usually for military reasons, or because of an air traffic control strike or because of e.g. volcanic dust clouds), then no commercial aircraft at all are permitted to fly. I don’t think that is what the EU and Irish had in mind.

  7. agricola
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 6:47 am | Permalink

    As you say, more of project fear. Any government the decides to play silly buggers is wide open to reciprocal action. The Irish Prime Minister would be wise to engage brain before opening mouth.

    • Bob
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:23 am | Permalink

      Well he certainly has a mouth, but the rest is yet to be proven.

    • Tone
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 8:33 am | Permalink

      It is the first time in the history of the Republic of Ireland that its leader’s heart is somewhere across the English Channel and brain unfound.

    • Timaction
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 3:52 pm | Permalink

      You sure it’s not Maybot pulling his choreographed stuff. Like the EU and others! Remoaner propaganda. We’re just not scared or buying it.

  8. Mick
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 6:49 am | Permalink

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2010/nov/22/ireland-bailout-uk-lends-seven-billion
    The Irish seem to have selected memory loss, who do they think they are telling us what to do and don’t, when the Eu goes belly up don’t come running to us for help, muppets

    • Lifelogic
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

      Indeed has the loan been repaid in full yet? A shame that Osborne did not get get approval from the UK tax payers whose money he so “generously” loaned.

      • acorn
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 4:44 pm | Permalink

        He did with the Loan to Ireland Act 2010. £3.2 billion. Final repayment due March 2021.

        The loan was actually to stop the Northern Ireland (NI) cross border economy going into recession. Basically, a disguised bung to NI politicians.

        • Lifelogic
          Posted July 20, 2018 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

          Not taxpayers approval that is just MPs!

    • Michael
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

      Mick..the irish aftet 800 years of being under the british yoke will never come running to you for help..not ever..not even if there was famine evictions and mass emigration again. So thank you very much for your concern.

      • libertarian
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

        Michael

        Er They came running for help in 2009/10 and we gave it willingly

        You’re welcome

      • L Jones
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 6:18 pm | Permalink

        What about the 2010 bailout then, Michael? Perhaps you should go and do a bit of research before you begin casting aspersions. I wonder how many people in Ireland would be impressed by such a comment as yours.

        So ”not ever” isn’t quite true, is it?

    • Ed Mahony
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

      ‘The Irish … muppets’

      – One of my favourite Tories of all time is Edmund Burke (Born in Ireland. And half Catholic / half Protestant, half Gaelic / half Anglo-Irish).

      • Ed Mahony
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

        Burke said that manners and religion (and a lot more ..) were key to a strong country. How I agree with him. And how he hated the French Revolution which brought so much chaos into the world – both in terms of violence and political anarchy and attacking Catholic and Protestant values).

        If we returned much more to the CONSERVATIVE political / social values of Edmund Burke, how great this country would be.

  9. Lifelogic
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 6:49 am | Permalink

    Where is the party 
of law and order? Asks the Telegraph leader today. Where indeed? Crime is out of control and outside a few fashionable areas (such as ‘hate’ crime) the police have virtually given up completely beyond issuing a victim of crime letter.

    They are also very keen indeed on deterring people reporting crimes when they think they can do. This to fiddle the reported crime figures. May played a big roll in this disaster too as Home Secretary for five years. Real deterrents are required and there are almost none.

    • Bob
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:36 am | Permalink

      About 500 people turned up at the US embassy on Saturday to show support for the presidential visit, and about the same number of police, some dressed in riot gear. They slapped a section 12 notice on the gathering and warned attendees that they faced arrest if they tried to leave the event while holding their flags.
      The average age of attendees was probably about 50.

      Welcome to Sadiq Khan’s London.

      • Tad Davison
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

        We ought to let President Trump know. I’ll try to do that via a presidential aid I have communicated with in the past.

        Tad

    • Tad Davison
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:40 am | Permalink

      Couldn’t agree more!

      I have long argued that by its very definition, an effective deterrent deters. That way, no-one becomes a victim of crime, no-one goes to prison, the tax-payer saves a fortune, and society can live in peace. So why don’t we have one?

      The advantage with an effective deterrent is you don’t have to us it so is very cost-effective. The truth is, successive governments have tied their own hands by listening to do-gooders in preference to those who actually vote. That has resulted in the most expensive but least effective option, and we are now seeing these problems manifesting themselves.

      The widespread dissatisfaction should never be underestimated, and it is only fair we apportion blame for the appalling breakdown in law and order. Criminals act with impunity, and that is just not good enough as the first duty of a responsible government is to protect the public.

      Tad

    • Ed Mahony
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 11:51 am | Permalink

      ‘I also think some really angry Brexiters’

      – I mean the angry, red-faced old men in pubs and drinks parties places like that.

  10. oldtimer
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 6:53 am | Permalink

    It is a measure of the extremes to which some are prepared to go to frustrate Brexit. Another example is provided by ConservativeHome’s interview with Stuart Jackson, Chief of Staff to David David when he headed DEXEU. He accuses the Europe unit inside No 10 of “constitutional impropriety”. It is a shocking account of the devious behaviour of May, senior officials and unnamed cabinet ministers. Unsaid, and probably unknown to Jackson, is the extent of the collusion between No 10 and the Commission. Looking back at the curious way the “negotiations” were conducted by May with the craven acceptance of the EU timetable and order of events, it would be easy to conclude that once again there is no smoke without fire. In time, no doubt, the full unsavoury account of deception and betrayal will be revealed by Tim Shipman or another enterprising journalist. In the meantime May should not be trusted for one moment.

    • mark riley
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:33 am | Permalink

      Yes, well said. I too am amazed that more has not been made of the deceitful, duplicitous actions of May in setting up DexEU only to completely bypass or undermine its operations. What a complete waste of money if nothing else. Without wishing to engage in conspiracy theories it is hard not to believe Hammond’s obstruction to ‘No Deal’ preparations was part of the strategy.

    • Hope
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 9:33 am | Permalink

      It is truly shocking behaviour. May has a reputation for being underhand.

      The EU would be mad to entertain her latest capitualtion because they would know the politicians and public in Britain are not going to allow it. The EU will seek to have May’s first two capitualions paid up in full before any further chats about her trade capitulation with the U.K. a vassal state.

    • Tad Davison
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:44 am | Permalink

      Good post OT.

      Tad

    • Ed Mahony
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 11:56 am | Permalink

      The Hard Brexiters could have got rid of May ages ago. More likely than not they’re just waiting for us to leave the EU without a deal. Fine. But we need a detailed Business-like Plan how to deal with the Hard Brexit in the Short to Medium term. A lack of detailed planning only leads to chaos not disaster.

      And any people who work in Business (or in the Army where strategy / tactics is key) would be asking the same question. It’s just common sense.

      • Ed Mahony
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

        And there’s no excuse for not producing and publicising a detailed Business Plan-like plan for Short to Medium Term Hard Brexit. Above all, it would calm people in business and the markets. So I can only conclude there isn’t a plan. Which is why business and the markets are getting extremely jittery. And will look after their own interests first if things being to spiral downwards when we live. Hard Brexiters have got to produce this plan – NOW. No excuses. And if they don’t, History will judge them harshly for not.

        • Ed Mahony
          Posted July 20, 2018 at 12:02 pm | Permalink

          (Apologies for being a pain in the ass – but I genuinely believe this – and I want the best for my country)

      • oldtimer
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 6:52 pm | Permalink

        It is clear that the Remainers had a plan; it is called Brexit means Brino. That much is abundantly evident when reviewing the swift sequence of events from the moment the referendum result was declared, starting with Cameron’s resignation followed the Monday morning by the legal challenge that went all the way to the Supreme court. The Remainers in Cabinet and the civil service have no discernible plan for exit on WTO terms, though as our host has frequently pointed out, that largely rests in the hands of businesses who trade with Europe. All governments do, most of the time, is get in the way.

  11. Ian wragg
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 6:57 am | Permalink

    The Irish PM would do well to be quiet.
    There is likely to be a boycott of their goods if he continues with his hysterical rantings.
    His attitude may bring us out of the EU without agreement. Good. The IMF predicts 8% loss of GDP to the Irish economy so a bit of cooperation would be advised.

  12. alan jutson
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:00 am | Permalink

    Given Parliament have just voted to give politicians anonymity for any sexual harassment accusals, is it not time to make that the case for all people in the UK the same benefit/protection given the recent spate of prosecution failures and false accusations.

    Why should Politicians only be a special case ?

  13. Martin Conboy
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:07 am | Permalink

    Airspace and overflight rights are under the auspices of the United Nations Chicago convention, which created the International Civil Airspace Organisation (ICAO). This organisation long pre-dates the EU, in fact it long pre-dates the EEC too. Is Leo varadkar really so determined to spite us that he is proposing to pull Ireland out of the ICAO?

  14. DUNCAN
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:10 am | Permalink

    PM May’s opened up the UK to international humiliation. We are now being patronised by the Irish PM, a nation of 5m people.

    We are a nuclear power. We are a perm. member of the UN. One of the most powerful nations on earth and we have become a laughing stock under this person called Theresa May

    We are being patronised and scolded like a child by their parent

    John. We want this leader booted out before Sept. All Tories want a leader that is Eurosceptic and a Tory.

    We have had enough of our nation being ridiculed and held to ransom by other leaders of nations who appear to be taking pleasure in doing so

    Irish politicians need to remember who their real ally is and it isn’t the EU. I have family in Ireland. I love that country but their politicians are despised even by the Irish public themselves

    • L Jones
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 6:24 pm | Permalink

      Thank you, Duncan. You have put into words very well what many of are thinking. I’m sure I’m not alone.

    • graham1946
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

      ‘All Tories want a leader that is Eurosceptic and Tory’

      Maybe the paying members and voters do, but the MP’s? No they favour the EU over their own country.

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 9:30 pm | Permalink

      Well done Duncan. I love your posts. You speak for most of us. It is criminal and sad what is happening to this once great nation. We are being ruled by fools and idiots and not least, cowards.

  15. hans christian ivers
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:24 am | Permalink

    JR
    Can we please start looking at the real problems ur country needs to deal with instead of just the EU and Brexit
    -Lack of investments in infrastructure
    -Long NHS waiting lists.
    -An educational system that lets down 20% of the population
    -Elderly care not working in the community
    -Young people’s mental problems.

    thank you

    • Ian wragg
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

      Brexit is by far the most important
      Most of the things you list can be better dealt with by a sovereign nation.
      We understand you don’t want to discuss Brexit now no deal is a strong possibility.

      • hans christian ivers
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:59 pm | Permalink

        we have much bigger problems but I do not expect you to be able to see then Ian so do not worry too much

    • libertarian
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

      hans

      Good post at last. Totally agree

      When we’ve left the EU we can spend the money saved on exactly the things you highlight

      • hans christian ivers
        Posted July 21, 2018 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

        Libertarian,

        That assumes we do not get poorer in the process and that is the most likely outcome according to most forcasters

        • libertarian
          Posted July 22, 2018 at 10:41 am | Permalink

          hans

          Thats good because most forecasters get most forecasts drastically wrong.

          Theres no reason based on current activity and direction of travel to assume we will get poorer as a nation . Forecasters from both sides of the debate start with an end in mind then try to find statistics to fit their arguments. Its why Economics is such a rubbish subject. You’re far better off with studying human behaviour.

          Meanwhile in the real world unemployment in the UK has plummeted once again, we are leading the world in digital tech, with one new tech company starting up every 5o minutes in the City of London. UK manufacturing currently 8th largest in the world is set to enter the top 5 by 2021 and apparently British cheesemakers are about to experience a boom in sales as according to PvL and others the Dutch dont want to sell us Edam and Gouda anymore .

  16. Adam
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:25 am | Permalink

    It is easy to reveal the extent of Project Fear absurdity.

    A dedicated 2-column website could list every Project Fear claim by logging a Myth No, date & source in the 1st column. The 2nd column would demonstrate why each is wrong (or even right, if so), against each entry.

    Then, each time Remainers attempt to raise Project Fear, respondents can snub them with short simple answers such as: Myth No 17.

    That may be useful on Twitter where long arguments are better shortened to key points.

  17. Prigger
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:53 am | Permalink

    The Irish leader has a domestic electorate who emotionally and historically like taking an economic shot at the Brits. You cannot blame them. But he is leading them into absolute servitude to the EU and trying to hide the economic realities of Ireland’s massive trade with UK.
    He takes his own people for fools. Odd kind of patriot! Irish farmers and Irish manufacturers know their best shot is to make a profit from the English by selling their stuff to us.

  18. Gareth
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:56 am | Permalink

    Now on this one, I agree with you that Varadkar is wrong. Overflights (first air freedoms) are governed by the International Air Services Transit Agreement, of which both UK and Ireland are signatories and do overflights are allowed subject to fee payments (as now). So overflights over Ireland will continue by virtue of our IASTA rights.

    But I repeat what I said in the other thread, and for which I have had no substantive answer: if there is literally NO Deal then, when the U.K. ceases to be an EU Member State, we will lose our Eighth Freedom (Consecutive Cabotage) Rights to fly between any two points in the EU will cease. Calling this part of Project Fear is just dodging the issue and cuts no ice: reality has a nasty habit of biting people that resort to simplistic solutions or falsehoods.

    • Edward2
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

      You assume no new agreements between interested parties.
      Is it likely air travel will stop?
      Is it likely major world airlines will sit back and allow their routes timetables and passengers to be dislocated because some bureaucrat will not sign a piece of paper?

      • Matt
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 6:45 pm | Permalink

        Who said- “do you seriously think that the Bavarian car workers are going to sit by and not put pressure on mrs Merkel?”etc

        Who said- “do you seriously think the french wine producers will not come onto the streets..etc etc?

        Well so far the car workers or the wine industry has been fairly quiet to say the least..as regards the airlines they have their own problems but with uk travel to european holiday destinations expected to be down from next year schedules will have to be looked at again

        • Edward2
          Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

          Like us in the UK, they believe trade between nations will carry on just as it does today.

        • libertarian
          Posted July 22, 2018 at 10:46 am | Permalink

          Matt

          Try reading the German press if you dont think German car makers are worried about Brexit

    • acorn
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

      Gareth, this is the number one Brexit site for simplistic solutions and and falsehoods! I and other number crunchers, tune in to read if anyone has actually got anything factually correct; which is rare.

      I agree with your Eighth Freedom but remember only the first five ICAO Freedoms are covered by Treaties, six through nine are officially “so called” freedoms. 😉

      • libertarian
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 5:41 pm | Permalink

        acorn

        Factually correct , what you mean like South Korean ship builders being passed of as French ? You mean like a certain person telling us that the French government would never sell an important shipyard to a foreign company a week before the French sold it to the Italians…. Or did you have some other falsehoods in mind?

        • Edward2
          Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

          Correct
          And don’t forget all the “facturally correct” predictions of doom by project fear which never happened.

          • acorn
            Posted July 21, 2018 at 7:28 am | Permalink

            Just add two years to the predictions. Due to not posting the Art 50 letter the day after the referendum.

          • Edward2
            Posted July 21, 2018 at 3:47 pm | Permalink

            The doomsday predictions of Project Fear were for immediately after the vote day.
            Not after we eventually leave.

          • libertarian
            Posted July 21, 2018 at 7:10 pm | Permalink

            acorn

            So lets get this straight, you are saying the loss of 500,000 jobs , the great recession, the £4300 extra cost to each family, our economy tanking, huge queues at British customs etc etc will all come true after next March will they ?

    • Mark
      Posted July 21, 2018 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

      How many flight routes operated by UK airlines does this affect? We don’t tend to offer flights between Rome and Berlin, or run a flight with intermediate stops on the way to Athens or Sofia. Aer Lingus would probably have to withdraw flights between London and Belfast as they would lose that right in the UK. unless agreement is reached.

    • libertarian
      Posted July 22, 2018 at 11:00 am | Permalink

      Gareth

      Firstly, an apology, i was over aggressive in my responses to you initially, and you have remained polite and stuck to facts. This is due to the lowering of the tone on this forum since Andy arrived with his shrill statements and aggressive posts .

      To answer your concerns about cabotage. There is no reason for the European treaties not to be signed over individually to the UK. Sure the EU may use this as a bargaining point but once again this would hurt EU airlines more than the UK.

      Heres why

      There are only around 5 UK owned airlines now and 4 of them are small/charter only.

      We dont tend to fly stop over routes around Europe and very few UK airlines tend to offer many flights between European destinations .

      We are a major part of the European/North Atlantic Air Traffic Control System

      There are a number of treaties that the EU have taken it upon themselves to negotiate on our behalf and which include us as part of the signatories. There is a whole set of issues that would arise if the EU tried to preclude the UK independently from these ( I’m not saying it won’t happen, as the EU has so far showed its dictatorship like qualities for all to see) . However under international law its extremely unlikely .

  19. gyges
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:57 am | Permalink

    One thing that Mr Redwood’s post highlights – “BA is […] part of IAG, an Anglo Spanish company with a headquarters in Madrid,” – is the effect of disintermediation with regard to the erosion of the EU (and indeed to Sovereign states).

  20. margaret
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    what about landing?

  21. Peter Divey
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 8:13 am | Permalink

    The IMF have warned all the “players” about a “disorderly” Brexit…reverting to IMF rules will collapse UK GDP by 4%. Eire will also be hit hard. The IMF has very little credibility, and need not be taken seriously. Cried Wolf once too often. It is interesting that in the US President Trump is grumbling about the Fed…a similar scenario the Treasury here, actions taken that seem designed to stifle the economy. So, Dominic Raab has been mocked by Barnier? No matter, even if true, Robbins is running the show. Project Fear has worked. Westminster and Whitehall will continue the association agreement that was laid out at Chequers. There will be no change in direction as long as May is PM.

  22. Sebastian Weetabix
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 8:14 am | Permalink

    Fundamentally Ireland cannot close its airspace even if Mr Varadkar should (rather stupidly) decide to do so. Ireland doesn’t really have an airforce to speak of, the Irish army air corps consisting as it does of a few helicopters and some transport & surveillance aircraft. Ireland could theoretically assert the right, but cannot exert it. But just for fun, let’s assume the Irish government did so. In return the U.K. could (just for starters) cut off the gas supply. Plainly the entire scenario is absurd and simply won’t happen.

    Mr Varadkar is not dealing with reality. I am surprised the media is giving him room on their front pages. I’m a dual citizen of the U.K. & Ireland, by the way, lest anyone should think I’m motivated by malice.

    • Dominic Johnson
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

      Data would hit harder
      There are no data cables between Southern Ireland and mainland EUrope, how they are going to square that circle after gdpr who knows

    • Gareth
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

      Clearly, Mr Weetabix, you are a cereal offender when it com s to taking no a hard line with Ireland (cereal – geddit? No? I’ll get my coat…….)

  23. jonP
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 8:19 am | Permalink

    Don’t know what the Irish PM has got to do with anything..we are negotiating with Barnier.

  24. Iain Gill
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 8:40 am | Permalink

    Ireland is doing a roaring trade in facilitating illegal immigration into England, many people allowed to fly into Dublin who would not be allowed to enter at a UK airport, they cross the land border, then they can cross the sea in a ferry without showing ID.
    This flow will only increase after brexit as Mrs May has made silly commitments not to take any of the obvious action to stop it.
    Expect south east England to get ever more full.

  25. Mike Neumann
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 8:47 am | Permalink

    The thought of Irish airspace closing to UK aircraft is yet more baffling nonsense. Non EU resident aircraft and airliners from all over the world fly over Irish airspace. Do planes from Switzerland not fly to and from the EU. Do aircraft from the EU not fly to and from Switzerland. The barrage of silly threats will eventually unravel.

  26. Tone
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 8:57 am | Permalink

    I guess the impact on Ireland will also depend on whether the USA finds it easier or harder to trade with EU Ireland than non-EU UK. The EU has already fined Ireland for in effect offering good trade deals linked to low taxation with the USA. Juncker thinks the Irish are naughty…staggeringly so.

  27. Original Richard
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    Mrs. May is working to thwart Brexit.

    So we will have a summer of dire economic warnings from the EU’s UK collaborators, such as the EU funded BBC, CBI and IMF, plus attempts to slow down the economy by the Chancellor, the Treasury and the Governor of the BoE, and a series of outright threats from foreign governments to close down our ports and airports designed to impose travel restrictions and trade sanctions against the UK.

    Mrs. May will say or do nothing to counter these threats and in the meantime the EU will refuse to negotiate anything else but the withdrawal agreement where their weaponising of the Irish border will finally call a halt to the negotiations and both sides will declare a crisis of monumental proportions as the March deadline draws closer and the threats to the UK and its people grow louder and more numerous.

    At this point, Mrs. May will suggest another referendum should take place as this will again be seen as the only way Mrs. May and the Conservative Party’s MPs, the majority of whom supported to remain in the EU, believe they can thwart Brexit and remain in power.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

      Our GDP is now up to 10% higher than the Treasury predicted in May 2016:

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36355564

      The worst prediction was for a 6% loss, but there has been a gain of nearly 4%.

      This is why I am keeping quite calm about the fresh batch of dire predictions, the models are so poor they could easily be out by 10% of GDP.

    • Original Richard
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 8:02 pm | Permalink

      PS : I left out a stage :

      The EU is also warning how damaging it will be for the EU if the UK leaves without a deal.

      So Mr. Barnier and Mr. Robbins will say that article 50 must be delayed to avoid the “cliff edge” and thus the UK will continue to be a member of the EU/SM/CU/ECJ/CFP/CAP and subject to all regulations and directives and will continue with its EU payments whilst “negotiations” continue.

      This will mean the UK will again be selecting its MEPs in May 2019, Mr. Robbins having already set aside the money to pay for these elections.

      UKIP will come first in these elections, as they did in 2014, and the Conservative Party will offer the electorate a “once-in-a-lifetime-we-will-act-upon-your-decision” referendum in order to be returned to power in 2022. There will not be a vote for an earlier GE because the majority of MPs are happy for the UK to remain in the EU.

      In the meantime the UK remains a full member of the EU.

  28. Chris
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 9:19 am | Permalink

    The weekly publication of No Deal fear mongering articles has to be countered and in an organised way. Who is going to do it, as Tory Brexiter MPs said they will support May, so they are presumably not going to provide the necessary scrutiny of the No Deal claims in an official way. I see that Portillo is saying that the H of C would not let the UK “crash out” i.e. leave with No Deal (not my words), but instead would go for an extension of Article 50. That is unacceptable. Brexiter MPs have to put an end to that idea forcefully and swiftly.

  29. William Long
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 9:33 am | Permalink

    I am surprised that neither M. Barnier, nor the Irish PM and most of the UK Civil Service and other Remainers, have yet taken on board the effect that ‘Project Fear’ indubitably had on the result of the Referendum. If anything is likely to unite the British electorate in favour of No Deal, it would be Project Fear Mark 2 – bring it on!

  30. No More Project Fear
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 9:50 am | Permalink

    Still no debate in the Media about who the Establishment think we need to controlled by fear, which on principle MPs should find abhorrent (or it will happen all the time) and still no mention by the MSM of the millions of people who lived caged in North Korea under an unelected dictator (if the MSM do not care nor many politicians we will end up with the same here).

  31. Chris
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:11 am | Permalink

    This from Hugh Bennett of Brexit Central on how Brussels views the Chequers plans, and importantly how the 4 amendments do nothing to alter the Substance of the Chequers plan:

    “…Instead, the Chequers plan appears to be viewed in Brussels principally as a domestic political exercise in the UK for May to face down Brexiteer opposition en route to a significantly softer Brexit yet.

    By my reading, the four Brexiteer amendments to the Customs Bill the Government accepted on Monday do nothing to affect the substance of the Chequers plan. If the Government does not change course and adopt the alternative model for a Canada+ style free trade agreement that David Davis developed while Brexit Secretary, while also making a genuine stand against the EU’s duplicity over the Irish backstop, it seems inevitable that the UK will simply be trapped in the EU’s lobster pot as concession after concession continues to be squeezed out of it.

  32. Atlas
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:17 am | Permalink

    The more debate is had about the NI border the more people will start to enquire just what Blair was playing at giving away Sovereignty there, as well as those secret ‘letters’…

  33. Monza 71
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:18 am | Permalink

    Last night on the BBC’s This Week programme, ignoring the truly dire amateur dramatics, the conclusion was that the Autumn would be a very dangerous and unpredictable time in UK politics.

    The panel’s view was that there really is no majority in Parliament for any kind of Brexit deal that our host and most of us here would be happy with. I have to say, I have thought this to be the case for some time. It’s clear that this situation would not change, whoever was in charge in Downing Street.

    I have always respected Michael Portillo’s opinions and he is saying that, such are the Remain forces lined up against us in and outside parliament, that we have effectively lost the battle and the war. Even if there was another truly great leader as charismatic and forceful as Margaret Thatcher available, ( and there certainly isn’t ), I cannot see how he or she could push through any kind of Brexit that leaves us properly independent, given the current balance of forces ranged against us.

    I agree with the view from the This Week team that Parliament would not allow an exit on WTO terms so a request for an extension to Article 50 looks to be on the cards. In order for this to be acceptable to Conservatives, the request would have to come from a new Conservative Leader who would have to be a Brexiteer.

    Of course, I would like to see May replaced by a Brexiteer, but the likelihood is that whoever is in Downing Street, Robbins and those like him throughout the Civil Service, together with Remainers in Parliament and big business, will conspire with Brussels to run A50 on indefinitely until such time as they think enough of us Brexiteers have died that they can hold another referendum and reverse the decision.

    Our only hope for a proper Brexit might now be a new Conservative Brexiteer leader and a well run General Election campaign based on a proper Leave manifesto. This could be held in a period of calm during an extended A50 period.

    With the right Conservative leader in place and Labour in its current parlous state under Corbyn, it might be less risky than we might think.

    • Dominic Johnson
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

      Theres no option to extend A50
      Its new deal or crash out

      Even a “deal” to extend A50 for two years would require a vote in the HoC now thanks to remoaners, and they dont have the numbers 🤔

      • Monza 71
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:03 pm | Permalink

        You are sadly wrong. A request to extend the A50 period could be submitted but would have to gain the support of all 27 other members.

        We might think that could be difficult but we already know just how desperate they are to get their hands on our money and the 27 would know that our £10bn (and rising ) net contribution pa would continue until we finally left – if ever.

        • Mark
          Posted July 21, 2018 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

          A deal requires the agreement of all 28 members. There is a nice question as to what would be considered proper UK consent.

  34. Ken Moore
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:38 am | Permalink

    It could be worse. Imagine if we hadn’t just had a wet spring and winter….

    With a population of 70 million plus and the refusal of generation spoiled to kerb their water consumption we would be looking at very severe shortages now.

    As I have said before this country is in very very deep trouble. Prosperity is in decline, we cannot afford the infrastructure needed to support an expanded population.

    God help you if you happen to need an intensive care bed in London…okay so you paid taxes all your life and in your hour of need require help. Tough the government gave your birthright away…

  35. a-tracy
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:40 am | Permalink

    Never mind Ireland.

    What is the story on policing John?

    I thought that policing was funded through local taxation (rates) which are going up higher than inflation each year now and national taxation and this is what a % of the Business rates also funded? I thought local councils decided to divert funds to local community policing with lower grade officers then called ‘Community Support Officers’ then the Conservatives diverted front end policing funds to have EU type Mayors and Police Commissioners with their own teams of people. When you add all of these new jobs up and add them to traditional police officer numbers what are the number comparisons and cost comparisons. Is this just a failed experiment?

  36. Bob
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:47 am | Permalink

    It behoves the BBC to question these outbursts from EUphiles like the Irish Prime Minister rather than parroting them without an iota of critical analysis.

    Scrap the TV Licence Fee.

  37. Shieldsman
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:48 am | Permalink

    Typical of many Politicians the Taoiseach is not technically qualified and speaks off the top of his head. If he was a real Irishman it could be called Blarney.

    Every Country does of course have control of its sovereign airspace and the right to refuse entry. The Chicago Convention laid down the rules for negotiating bilateral Air Service Agreements.

    The Brussels Commission has yet to sit down with the United Kingdom and renegotiate the current Air Service Agreement which becomes invalid next year when we leave the European Community and the Common Aviation Area.

    Overflying rights are only valid for Countries that have ASA’s between each other.

  38. Nick O.
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    Slightly off topic, but could Mr Redwood – or someone – not put in a Freedom of Information request for all us to see the alternative White Paper, the one which DD and co. were working on before the Chequers ambush? DD asked her about this in PMQ’s and she studiously avoided answering him, so it seems to me that for some reason she is determined that we – the poor old taxpaying public who pay for all this – are not to be allowed to see it. I wonder what she does not want us to see, then? Because DD, Steve Baker and co. had been working on this for many weeks, and the Chequers event was organised deliberately to stop Dexeu’s White Paper getting out first, if at all. Mr Redwood, can you do something to get the other White Paper released to us?

    • Know-Dice
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

      There is nothing to stop you issuing a FOI request on the correct department.

  39. Dr GP
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 11:09 am | Permalink

    Cut the cables to Ireland. They all come though the UK.

    A few days with no internet would concentrate minds.

    • Dominic Johnson
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

      Under GDPR data can’t leave the EU
      Ireland loses internet once we crash out anyway

    • libertarian
      Posted July 22, 2018 at 11:04 am | Permalink

      Irelands only gas feed also comes from the UK

      There is a glaringly obvious reality based answer to all of this. Ireland ought to also leave the EU . Problems solved. They could also then carry on with their low corporation tax attraction to large US corporations

  40. Richard1
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 11:17 am | Permalink

    Veradker is a fool to talk like this. Apart from anything else Irish airspace is protected by the RAF. Norway does not give unlimited access to its fishing waters but we do not say Norwegian Air or SAS aircraft coming from Norway can’t fly over EU countries.

    This is Project Threat which is running in parallel with Project Fear 2.0, being orchestrated here by Continuity Remain. m Barnier has made contribution to Project Threat with the hoary old chestnut of lorry queues at Dover.

  41. Chris
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 11:19 am | Permalink

    Mr Redwood, it would appear that May’s Chequers plans are what is going to be presented to Brussels. How can that be when they do not represent Brexit? It would appear that Tory Brexiter MPs are going to let her do this. If so, Brexiter MPs are complicit in the betrayal of the electorate by Theresa May.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/991796/Brexit-news-germany-france-angela-merkel-macron-theresa-may-white-paper

  42. Pud
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 11:39 am | Permalink

    Irish airspace is completely surrounded by UK airspace. If UK flights are not allowed into Irish airspace then the UK simply returns the favour and nothing can fly from Ireland.

  43. Denis Cooper
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 11:46 am | Permalink

    On the BBC Business programme this morning Tony Lloyd, Labour’s Shadow Northern Ireland Secretary, said:

    “Everybody who’s looked at the situation of the Irish border has known for a long time,
    this is going to be the single defining process which drives the way in which the UK and
    the EU negotiate a settlement.”

    Meanwhile, this scrolled along underneath:

    “Cross border trade was worth $3.8 billion in 2016”

    I don’t know why they had it expressed in dollars – probably they hadn’t bothered to look for a better source with it in pounds – and I don’t much like their use of the word “trade” which can be understood in different ways, but I pointed out as long ago as last December that our exports across the land border correspond to about 0.1% of UK GDP:

    http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2017/12/09/the-joint-report-on-the-negotiations-so-far/#comment-906459

    “Are we going to allow every business in the UK to remain bound by EU law because of the Irish government’s absurd, extreme and intransigent refusal to contemplate any kind of controls over imports of goods corresponding to 0.1% of the UK’s GDP? That would be literally a hundred times sillier than what we have at present.”

    Well, to be fair that is not what Therolly is now proposing, instead it would only be every business in the UK concerned with goods in some way, that is about 20% of our economy still being run under EU rules so that the Irish need not worry about the 0.1% being driven across the border into the Republic.

    Oh, and Tory Lloyd persisted with the official Labour deception that it would be enough to have “a customs union with the European Union that mirrors the customs union we are now in”, when the removal of controls at the EU’s “internal” borders only came with the advent of the EU Single Market, not the Customs Union – as some dissident Labour MPs are sufficiently honest to recognise.

  44. Denis Cooper
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    In her speech in Belfast today:

    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/theresa-mays-keynote-address-at-belfasts-waterfront-hall-full-speech-37138123.html

    our deeply misguided Prime Minister offered three reasons why she and her favourite unelected civil service adviser Olly Robbins are proposing that the UK should become a vassal state, albeit under an ostensibly limited vassalage.

    “First, the rules that cover goods have been relatively stable over the last 30 years.

    Second, many of the relevant standards are set by international bodies which we will remain a member of after we leave the EU.

    Third, the many UK businesses that trade with the single market will continue to meet these rules anyway whether or not the Government makes a promise to.”

    The first is questionable – for example 3o years ago there was no EU prohibition of high powered vacuum cleaners – but insofar as it is true it means that we need not worry too much about the possibility of undesirable changes to the standards being applied to goods being brought in from the EU, and if we are not inspecting them at the Irish border now then it is unlikely that we will need to start checking them in the future.

    The second is either irrelevant, or it could possibly mean that we will find ourselves being pressured to follow the same line as the EU on those international bodies.

    While the third argues for UK law to be changed to normally permit companies to follow EU rules if they choose to do so, just as they might work to the standards of other export markets, while strictly prohibiting the export to the EU of any goods which the EU would deem unacceptable.

    It certainly does not argue for it to continue to be compulsory for every company in the UK which is concerned with goods, and all goods made within or imported into or sold within the UK, to conform to all EU rules.

  45. JJE
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    It’s whether the airline has majority EU ownership that matters, not where the HQ is.
    Only majority EU owned airlines can fly from one EU airport to another EU airport.
    Airlines have warned U.K. shareholders that they may have to force them to sell their shares as allowed for in their articles of association.

    • libertarian
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 6:26 pm | Permalink

      JJE

      Delta Flight DL8655 London to Paris ( arrived 47 minutes late ) 19th July 2018

      Delta Flight DL8420 Paris CdG to Berlin TXL ( arrived 20 mins late) 20th July 2018

      Delta is HQ in Atlanta Georgia and is a wholly owned US airline

      Try again

      • acorn
        Posted July 21, 2018 at 8:00 am | Permalink

        Both the EU and the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU, David Davis MP, have since confirmed it was likely the UK would leave the EU-US Open Skies Agreement

        There’s a Bill currently stuck in the HoL to try and remain in this agreement. Open Skies Agreement (Membership) Bill [HL] 2017-19

        Try again libby.

  46. Ed Mahony
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

    Apologies for getting all philosophical but recently, I got caught in the middle of a knife attack, in a middle class part of London. I was fine. But a 17 year-0ld kid got cut in the head. Luckily the police arrived in time. But it was an ugly business. And made me think hard about my mortality. And the state of affairs in Britain today. Suddenly Brexit stopped being so important as it had done (but is still important – and I accept, to a degree, the arguments of Hard Brexiters, but right now, I just want a proper Business-plan-like plan for the Short to Medium Term Hard Brexit).

    • libertarian
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

      Ed M

      No what we want is a London Mayor that actually cares about London, stops virtue signalling and actually starts to keep some of his promises

      • Fedupsoutherner
        Posted July 21, 2018 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

        Let’s face it, Khan is another Obama. All talk and no action.

  47. BrexiteerwivMusket
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

    Mrs May contradicted the Brexiteer argument that largely technology means could help solve the EU’s issue of a frictionless N.I border. She openly said so in her Northern Ireland statement today.

    She nicely smiled when she said “The Common Rule Book” will be instrumental ( in thwarting Brexit actually ). Of course she expects Barnier to perceive the weakness and go for a more inclusive Rule Book to which she will “reluctantly” accept as it is “a matter of give and take” )

    The fight for our Independent UK begins AFTER she has negotiated a nothingburger. If Raab doesn’t walk away and resign his new position then we shall think less of him as doubtlessly he will wish a go at PM nominations in next to no time.

    Brexiteers in Parliament have tolerated Loser May for an incredibly long time.

    • BrexiteerwivMusket
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 2:29 pm | Permalink

      Update:Of course Barnier has now asked as a main position of the EU that the Common Rule Book include more concessions of just about everything we would not want.
      This is no position for continued negotiations. The only achievement so far of the Brexit Team is that millions of EU citizens can stay here and more to follow .Well done! Great negotiators over months and months! Arrange for their departure from our soil at the latest 29th March 2019!

    • Iain Moore
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

      With the Brexit department getting gutted of staff, and in light of the humiliation May heaped on David Daavis , Raab is nothing more than Olly Robins assistant, if that.

  48. Nig l
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 12:51 pm | Permalink

    Seems from TMs latest comments she hasn’t budged from the White Paper an inch, still wants us to be a rule taker and apparently a technological solution to the border doesn’t exist any where in the world?

  49. BrexiteerwivMusket
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 1:10 pm | Permalink

    Just listened to Barnier. He has moved a very long way. From our being a member of the EU and accepting all its laws and regulations to being a not a member of the EU and accepting all its laws and regulations.

    Oh he wishes to negotiate on our MILITARY bases being in Cypress and Malta.

    Why has not Raab resigned half-way through Barnier’s speech?
    There is nothing further to say to the EU and frankly there is nothing Raab could possible say to Brexiteers which would be of interest to us except his resignation speech. He must keep it brief though, so Mr Bercow can get a word in.

    • Chrisf
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 2:43 pm | Permalink

      Was it just me, or did he (very overtly) admit that the EU were worried about the UK being MORE competitive than the EU in Services when we left?

      Which raises a coupe of questions;

      1). I wasn’t aware that there was an EU agreement on Services (glad to be told otherwise if not true)

      2). Has he just admitted to everyone that the EU gets in the way of being competitive (not that we didn’t know that)?

      Why would we want to be shackled to this bunch when WTO is an option?

      chrisf

      • BrexiteerwivMusket
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

        Yes he did admit the possibility! 🙂

      • Chris
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

        That is one of the key reasons for leaving the EU, so that we can grow our economy and become competitive, and yes, generate wealth. If the EU choose to use a duff economic model, then let them do so. That is their look out.

      • Matt
        Posted July 20, 2018 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

        ChrisF..no he just raised the point that the EU is not going to allow UK have any unfair advantage over EU in its dealings into the future..something they have always said..remember..no cherry picking allowed..no having your cake and eating it

        • Oxygen
          Posted July 20, 2018 at 8:24 pm | Permalink

          Matt, Mr Barnier has no say whether we gain commercial advantage in the future. We intend to gain advantage in every conceivable way. That is why we are leaving the EU.It is honourable of him to admit that by leaving we will.

          • Chris
            Posted July 21, 2018 at 9:30 am | Permalink

            You are quite right, but it seems we have a PM stupid enough to promise that we won’t take advantage of our position outside the EU, and its strangling bureaucracy.

        • graham1946
          Posted July 21, 2018 at 9:56 am | Permalink

          What is ‘unfair’ advantage. By these terms the whole world has an ‘unfair advantage’. What he means is that the UK must be tied up in expensive red tape and costs so as to make the inefficient single market work.

    • hans christian ivers
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

      which base is this in Malta, please inform

  50. John
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

    I am curious as to why (apparently) the Irish Parliament is not confronting Varadkar more aggressively over his border stance. One one hand he plays victim and moans away about how nobody wants a border settlement which will damage the Irish economy, and then almost in the same breath he trots out endless defences of the Barnier position which are clearly not in the interests of either Irish business or it’s citizens.

    So why is nobody asking who Varadkar is acting for – the Irish people or Jean-Claude Juncker?

    • Ron Olden
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

      This is a fact.

      The only people who have ever threatened a Hard Border between Northern Ireland and the UK is the EU itself, and Ireland will have to enforce it.

      The UK has no interest in having a Hard Border. Non Irish and UK migration over the border would be miniscule and even then they’d still have to make their way to the mainland, But as for goods we want Free Trade anyway.

      It’s the EU which has the interest in maintaining an external tariff border.

      My view has always been that Varadkar has been behaving in the way he has, just to suck up to the EU. Without the UK, Ireland is dispensable (possibly even a liability) to the EU and Varadkar feels vulnerable.

      Who knows what’s been said behind the scenes.

  51. Sir Joe Soap
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    “Great Britain will be an island”
    Not so much sabre rattling as waving pots at the kettle and calling it black.

  52. Denis Cooper
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 3:02 pm | Permalink

    In his press statement today, from 8 minutes in here:

    http://www.euronews.com/2018/07/20/watch-live-barnier-to-address-the-uk-s-brexit-white-paper

    Michel Barnier expresses concerns about whether the EU could maintain the integrity of its Customs Union and Single Market under the plan in the UK White Paper, with the EU having a duty of care to consumers in its territory.

    Well, fine, various eurocrats have been saying these things for a long time now, and they are legitimate concerns; and it would seem perfectly reasonable for us to offer to help the EU protect its standards within its territory, but without agreeing to necessarily impose any of them within any part of our territory.

    While we are in the EU we have domestic laws which protect the EU Single Market south of the Irish border by excluding illicit products from the north, but there is no reason why we should not replace those protective laws with new laws to rigorously exclude any such products from the goods which are taken across the open border to the south.

  53. margaret howard
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

    Thankful for smaller and smaller mercies, John?

  54. Stephen Berry
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

    The Irish PM needs to be asked if British ships should also be prevented from docking in Irish and EU ports. Then he should be gently reminded that wholesale prevention of goods from British firms arriving at their destination amounts to nothing less than an economic blockade. Then he should be reminded that under international law, economic blockade is often construed as constituting an act of war.

    Then he needs to take a cold shower.

  55. Ron Olden
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    SURPRISE SURPRISE

    Well Well Well, Surprise Surprise.

    Even Mrs May’s abject surrender to the EU isn’t enough and they have announced that they see the Chequers plan only as a starting point for discussions and more concessions.

    This is EXACTLY what Eurosceptics like David Davis, Boris Johnson or anyone with any common sense warned would happen.

    At a push enough Eurosceptics might have been able to swallow the plan if it went no further. But we warned it was tactical suicide to make so many concessions at the start.

    You do not succeed in negotiations by turning up waving a White Flag.

    So want does May have to say now?

    If she refuses to move any further Remainacs here and the EU itself will blame her for intransigence and wanting a Hard Brexit.

    If she makes any more concessions it will no different from staying in the EU but on worse terms that we had to start off with and they will keep demanding more and more.

    The only options now remaining are staying. in the EU or a ‘No Deal’ Brexit. May has ruined any chance of ‘Compromise With Honour’.

    She’s the worst negotiator since Chamberlain obtained his assurances from Hitler.

    But who can blame the EU? Over the decades the UK has proved itself to be the biggest pushover around. So (and especially with Remainers in Parliament undermining even these surrennder terms, why wouldn’t they assume the same now?

  56. Chris
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

    This statement comes from D Telegraph politics newsletter:
    “Michel Barnier pushes for more concessions despite Theresa May suggesting she can go no further”.

    This is no surprise to anyone, and the next step, I fear, is utterly predictable. If Brexit is to be effected, the country must have, and deserves to have, a PM capable of, and utterly committed to doing it. We do not have that at the moment.

  57. Qubus
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

    I am highly critical of T. May, but at least she seems to be sober most of the time.

  58. Anonymous
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 4:54 pm | Permalink

    Eurosceptic party of fiscal rectitude and law and order…

    Bwah ha ha ha ha !

  59. Iain Moore
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 5:02 pm | Permalink

    Yes it was ridiculous, especially as most of Irish flights over fly the UK, so if Varadka gets his way, the Irish won’t be travelling anywhere other than Lanzarote , but what is more humiliating was/is the craven response from the British establishment. For this morning we had Karen Bradley on the Today programme being asked about just this, and rather than sticking up for our country, and giving people a small feeling that their Government cares about the country, and won’t allow us to be talked down that way, we instead got a lot of waffle and flannel, and coming out with the slippery response or ‘ I haven’t heard the comment’…. I bet she had….. but it seems that is against some law, or perhaps racist to stick up for our country.

    • graham1946
      Posted July 21, 2018 at 9:49 am | Permalink

      Waffle and flannel is a sure sign they don’t know what they are talking about but feel they must say something. Parliament is stuffed full of incompetents on salaries tand conditions hey could not command outside. They usually have to wait to be told by the PM what their opinion is.

  60. Ian wragg
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

    I hear Barnier wants to discuss the sovereign bases in Cyprus and Gibraltar.
    The clue is in the name sovereign. The land belongs to the UK and is no business of the EU.
    He really does want a no deal. Let’s just cut the crap and declare as such.
    He has rubbished the Chequers paper as he knows even without more concessions it can’t get through parliament so why the pretence.

    • Steve
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:18 pm | Permalink

      @Ian Wragg;

      Well it won’t be the first time they’ve said non to us.

      Was the very brave ‘french national hero’ DeGaulle who said it after fighting the war from the safety of Buckingham palace.

      We should have had nothing further to do with that ungrateful lot when they snubbed us before.

      I agree we need to stop messing about, cut the crap, and make our own way in this world.

      Or Theresa May could just tell Barnier that if they don’t show us due respect we’ll make sure to destroy the EU when are out. Personally I think we should just wreck the damn thing anyway.

  61. Steve
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 5:16 pm | Permalink

    If the government here had any sense it would be conducting covert negotiations with countries like Ireland so that when we leave the EU and trade with the rest of the world they could come in with us, and do rather nicely.

    Same with Greece, a once proud shipping nation.

    I think there should not only be plans for hard BREXIT, but also plans to facilitate breaking up the federal pariah EU once we are out.

  62. Qubus
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

    Following all the deliberate obstruction, essentially emanating from A Merkel,I am beginning to think that Mrs Thatcher was right about the two Germanies.

    For Holy Roman Empire read European Union !

    Wasn’t it François Mauriac who said: I love Germany so much that I am glad there are two?

    • Andy
      Posted July 21, 2018 at 11:10 am | Permalink

      Maggie was dead right about the effect a ‘United Germany’ would have on Europe and you only have to see the damage wrought in Greece by German intragegence to see that.

      • margaret howard
        Posted July 21, 2018 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

        Damage wrought on Greece by Germany? They paid Goldman Sachs millions to fiddle the figures so that they would be allowed into the EU. Without EU help they would have gone under.

        The following is an extract from the World Bank on Global Economy:

        In the “Doing Business” category Greece came 61st, just behind Tunisia

        For “Reliability” it came 155th, just behind Malawi

        For “Tax Collecting” it was behind the Solomon Islands

        But in other criteria it compared favourably to Tongo and Morocco

        • Edward2
          Posted July 22, 2018 at 7:32 am | Permalink

          In their overwhelming desire to expand their empire as fast as possible the EU decided to ignore Greece’s obvious problems and make them a member.
          Then a totally inappropriate rate of exchange of the Euro affected their economy even more.
          Another EU inspired disaster.

  63. Denis Cooper
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    Since it was given Royal Assent yesterday we now have a new Act about the granting of permits to road hauliers:

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2018/19/contents/enacted/data.htm

    “Haulage Permits and Trailer Registration Act 2018”

    So what we need now is another new Act to indirectly but effectively control goods exports across the Irish land border, let us call it the:

    “Prohibited Cargo (Irish border) Act 2018”

    Which would:

    a) Provide a route to the detailed specifications of all the goods which the EU did not want to be taken across the Irish land border into its Single Market; and

    b) Define a graduated scale of related offences and lay down maximum civil and criminal penalties, which would include possible loss of the haulage permit.

  64. Andy
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

    I really like Leo Varadkar and Simon Coveney. Michel Barnier is pretty ace too.

    Every time they speak, they brilliantly and succinctly sum up the dumbness of Brexit.

    It’s really quite entertaining to watch how much it winds you all up.

    The fact is that you all got an easy ride for 30+ years.

    Nobody sensible gave the Eurosceptics rantings any thought.

    That was a mistake because, it turns out, people (particularly old people) are gullible.

    Still – it is important that we return the favour.

    What you’ll soon learn is that the drip drip of bad headlines is exceedingly damaging.

    We’ve not even got started with Brexit yet. The really bad stuff is still yet to happen.

    When it does you’ve got a major problem on your hands.

    Future generations do not want your Brexit.

    We are proud Europeans not closed mind Little Englanders.

    We do not need more than one chance to kill off your Brexit.

    It will not take us long to get one.

    • Psychic
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 8:16 pm | Permalink

      “Future generations do not want your Brexit” It seems you’re having a Leo into Uranus moment.

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted July 22, 2018 at 7:37 am | Permalink

        As a Leo I object to that … 🙂

    • Edward2
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 9:08 pm | Permalink

      Why do you create a paragraph for every sentence.
      Very poor grammar.

      • Andy
        Posted July 21, 2018 at 7:50 am | Permalink

        On the contrary. It’s knowing your audience.

        And it makes my posts stand out.

        I know how much you all like reading my thoughts.

        • libertarian
          Posted July 21, 2018 at 7:13 pm | Permalink

          Andy

          Are your thoughts beamed in from Uranus ?

        • Fedupsoutherner
          Posted July 21, 2018 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

          Yes Andy we always have a laugh at your posts. Thanks for cheering us up and reminding us that the education system needs reforming.

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 9:15 pm | Permalink

      Andy, your vindictiveness towards your own people knows no bounds. Goodness only knows what kind of people your children will become if they look to you for guidance. All very sad and one wonders why you are so slow to leave the UK when it seems you no longer want to be here. Best get over there before the threat of Brexit stops that opportunity or at least that’s what the doom and gloom idiots believe. Living abroad isn’t always what its cracked up to be. I know from personal experience but by all means leave if you want to.

      • Andy
        Posted July 21, 2018 at 7:43 am | Permalink

        You old folk are not ‘my own people’.

        You represent everything that is wrong with my country.

        You, literally, have nothing in common with me and my generation.

        • graham1946
          Posted July 21, 2018 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

          What do you consider ‘old’? At 45 most of the young would consider you old and due for an appointment at Dignitas.

        • libertarian
          Posted July 21, 2018 at 7:13 pm | Permalink

          Andy

          Apart from being your parents you mean?

        • Fedupsoutherner
          Posted July 21, 2018 at 10:03 pm | Permalink

          That’s fine Andy as long ad you remember that in your rule book once you get to pensionable age you will have no day either. If we’re lucky by that time you might have another brain cell and if we’re really lucky you might have b—gered off.

    • margaret howard
      Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

      If they really succeed with Brexit this time we might console ourselves with the fact that in a few years time most of the Brexiteers will have popped their clogs and many more young, go ahead Brits will vote to get us re-admitted.

      We shall have to beg for the EU to have us back again, just as we did in the 1960’s. Hope they will have us. Last time Germany supported us despite de Gaulle’s NON. I don’t suppose they will make the same mistake again.

      • Edward2
        Posted July 21, 2018 at 7:02 am | Permalink

        Still using that tired old argument that only old people voted to leave.
        First that is simply wrong and secondly you need to realise those who are in their 50s today are likely to live for another 30 years.
        Thirdly, people’s views change over time and it is just as likely that as you youngsters get older you become wiser and turn into leave supporters.

        • David Hoy
          Posted July 22, 2018 at 9:24 am | Permalink

          Young people only support the EU as it is all they have known and have no doubt had its virtues sung to them by their teachers. After a few years of being out they will change their mind and want to stay out much to the disappointment of little Andy.

      • James Matthews
        Posted July 21, 2018 at 8:54 am | Permalink

        Dream on.

        • Edward2
          Posted July 21, 2018 at 3:52 pm | Permalink

          So why isn’t there a permanent Conservative majority in Government if the demographic is an ageing population who according to you are all right wingers?

    • Anonymous
      Posted July 21, 2018 at 8:17 am | Permalink

      I think you’re mistaken if you think Brexit voters are all old.

      – Most soldiers voted for Brexit

      – Most low ranking police officers voted for Brexit

      – Most builders, football fans, thugs voted for Brexit

      Thank heavens for social media to counter the propaganda.

      • James Matthews
        Posted July 22, 2018 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

        She has weighed these people in the balance but prefers thrusting energetic vibrant youngsters like as Ken Clarke, Michael Heseltine, Vince Cable, John Major, Tony Blair, Peter Mandelson and George Soros. Each to their own.

  65. Fedupsoutherner
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

    So Barnier is giving out negative vibes. Isn’t it about time the UK stopped crawling, pleading and making concessions to the EU and told them we’re going? Let’s just get on and forge our own way and leave them to it. The latest is that we are being sued by the EU over tax concessions. When are we going to tell them to stuff it?

  66. James Snell
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    What is absurd is JR putting up a post like this based on a rag tabloid headline..now j R-m has joined the fray..well you guys will get what you wish for soon enough..and very likely it’ll be in the form of a general election..after that things will be different..and maybe worse.. but different.

  67. Original Richard
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    Isn’t it likely that the EU bureaucracy is keen to ensure a “no deal” so that WTO tariffs can be applied to UK goods entering the EU from which they will benefit from receiving the standard 80% of the duties levied ?

    Particularly as they will be losing the 80% they currently collect from UK imports from non-EU countries ?

    Mr. Varadkar is being duped by the EU to be completely intransigent on finding a solution for the Irish border thus making a “no deal” more likely, which is likely to be more damaging to Ireland than to either the UK or to the rest of the EU.

    Plus of course, the EU’s desire to give the UK a punishment deal to deter any other countries who may be considering leaving the EU.

    • graham1946
      Posted July 21, 2018 at 9:37 am | Permalink

      Your last paragraph shows up the Remainers claims for what they are – worthless. Why would there be any need of a punishment for leaving if the EU is such a fantastic idea? The EU and Remainers are terrified that the UK will make a success of things outside and prove them to have been wrong over the last 43 years.

      Barnier has said just yesterday they he cannot allow British firms to be more competiive than EU firms. That’s it in a nutshell and why the EU will fail – all going along at the lowest common denominator, protected by artificial tariffs and non tariff barriers.

      • margaret howard
        Posted July 22, 2018 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

        “The EU and Remainers are terrified that the UK will make a success of things outside and prove them to have been wrong over the last 43 years”

        Really? Makes you wonder why we begged to become a member in the first place. From ‘the sick man of Europe’ to the world’s 5th biggest economy in the last 43 years and nothing at all to do with our EU membership!

        What a coincidence ! What to you think caused it?

        • James Matthews
          Posted July 22, 2018 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

          Margaret Thatcher.

        • Edward2
          Posted July 22, 2018 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

          We joined a Common Market
          Prosperity freedom lower taxes opportunity for businesses to thrive.

          We are leaving a body that aims to become an empire.
          The left hated the common market.
          Now they love the EU

  68. Prigger
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    Is Mrs May going to promote our technological excellence which she crows about and put out a tender for firms to come up with/invent the technology she claims does not exist? She could put it to a sixth form science class first. It will take them three months.

  69. Right-winger
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    Can we put Mrs May on the transfer list for Real Politik? Ask for Twopence but accept a Penny if they get cheeky.

  70. margaret howard
    Posted July 20, 2018 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

    Just a reminder of what we are leaving:

    The EU is the world’s largest trading bloc, and second largest economy

    In 2014 the value of the EU’s output totalled $18.5 tri

    It’s north European members consistently top the world development index.

    Largest air craft industries, steel dairy fashion beer cosmetics luxury goods mobiles energy paper banking car

    EXIT BREXIT!

    • Edward2
      Posted July 21, 2018 at 7:07 am | Permalink

      You are obsessed with trade.
      It is about freedom, independence, the right to make our own laws in our own Parliament with our courts supreme.
      The right to control our borders, to have our own currency and our own armed forces and not to have to pay billions a year to a supranationall body that as a whole creates a £90 billion trade deficit with it.

      • margaret howard
        Posted July 21, 2018 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

        Our own currency? The £?

        Never joined Schengen

        Don’t think the army, air force or navy would like you describe them as foreign owned. After all the US forced us to join them in their illegal wars starting with Iraq that have now destabilised the whole Middle East, not the European EU members. You are just repeating the same old Daily Mail cliches.

        EU membersship turned us from the ‘sick man of Europe’ into the world’s 5th largest economy. All going now.

        • Edward2
          Posted July 22, 2018 at 7:40 am | Permalink

          Correct our own currency is the pound.
          Remaining would inevitably end up with the UK having the Euro.
          Remaining would inevitably end up with the UK’s armed forces subsumed into the EU.
          We had recessions and crashes and periods of low growth and periods of high unemployment during our time in the EU
          Are you saying that was all due to the EU too?

          • margaret howard
            Posted July 22, 2018 at 3:11 pm | Permalink

            “Remaining would inevitably end up with the UK’s armed forces subsumed into the EU”

            You mean rather than follow the US into illegal wars starting with Iraq?

            As for joining the euro – the pound has dropped like a stone against it.

          • Edward2
            Posted July 22, 2018 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

            The pound has varied between parity and 1.60 against the Euro
            It hasn’t dropped like stone ecently as you claim.
            Your anti US comment is a complete red herring.

        • Mark
          Posted July 22, 2018 at 11:39 am | Permalink

          It was Margaret Thatcher and her government we have to thank for turning the UK economy around – not the EU.

      • Ken Moore
        Posted July 24, 2018 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

        The ideal of absolute sovereignty is a bit of an illusion ..the Uk is under the ‘double coffin lid’ of EU law that is underpinned by international law. The Eu for all it’s fault is often a convenient bogeyman.

    • Right-winger
      Posted July 21, 2018 at 7:26 am | Permalink

      The Chinese make one or two mobiles too, ermmm in fact….

    • Wing maker
      Posted July 21, 2018 at 7:27 am | Permalink

      Yes but their aircraft will soon lack wings

    • Prigger
      Posted July 21, 2018 at 7:46 am | Permalink

      The sun is rising quickly in “The East ” of our world. The Brexiteers know it, while Germany contents itself in nicking our deck chairs and basking in the very early sunshine

    • Anonymous
      Posted July 21, 2018 at 8:22 am | Permalink

      “The EU is the world’s largest trading bloc, and second largest economy”

      I don’t recall this nation being offered to us in any manifesto.

      I don’t recall any MP EVER campaigning with an EU emblem on his person or in his literature. In fact their EU-ness was always kept quiet and a very minor (if non existent) in their policies.

      A pro EU parliament was foisted upon us by stealth and is clearly unrepresentative of the general population.

      As for wealth ? Look at our national debt as well as the potholes.

      • margaret howard
        Posted July 22, 2018 at 12:37 pm | Permalink

        Maybe you should start looking nearer home.

        “Unrepresentative of the general population?”

        Why is it that after hundreds of years of so-called democracy, the country is still owned by a few people at the top? Why do we have an unelected house of lords stuffed full of people kicked upstairs for doing various favours to various governments? An unelected head of state brought in a few hundred years ago from Germany?

        Democracy? Our country run by ‘representatives of the general population? What a joke.

    • alan jutson
      Posted July 21, 2018 at 9:12 am | Permalink

      Oh dear Margaret.

      Do you really thank all trade with the EU will completely stop after we leave.

      Do you really think when we leave there will be no co-operation between EU countries their Companies, universities, security services, transport/travel services, etc etc, and those in the UK.

      • margaret howard
        Posted July 22, 2018 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

        No, of course I don’t.

        But it won’t be anything as good as we have now.

        And what for? We had the world and swapped it for an ugly ideology.

    • Rien Huizer
      Posted July 21, 2018 at 10:16 am | Permalink

      I should have added that the UK is merely a pawn in the long game between the US and EU for lower friction in mutual trade. The problem there is what to do with interest groups on both sides, especially the Trumpists and farmers in the US and the farmers and defense companies in the EU. As you may have noticed, the EU has an agreement with Japan now that will, with or without brexit, make Japanese car production in the EU l;ess viable than shipping from Japan or Canada (as Honda plans to do) and create much better opportunities for German elite brands in Japan.

    • libertarian
      Posted July 21, 2018 at 12:44 pm | Permalink

      margaret Howard

      NAFTA is the worlds largest trading block

      NAFTA has a value of $20.7 tri

      NAFTA has worlds largest Financial service, technology and Digital businesses

      Just 5 US tech businesses have a value of $3.3 tri ( nearly $1 tri more than whole of France)

      Commonwealth has 2.3 billion people

      The Worlds largest economies are

      1) USA
      2) China
      3) Currently EU , but they will drop places once UK leaves

      The CEBR predicts that by 2028

      1) China
      2) USA
      3) India

      • margaret howard
        Posted July 21, 2018 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

        Ah yes, NAFTA – Canada, America, Mexico!

        The latter two so fond of each other that the US is now building a wall across their borders to stop those pesky Mexicans flooding their country.

        AND the Commonwealth!

        Lovely countries AS Bangladesh, Cameroon, Nigeria, Tonga, Ghana, Cameroon, Swaziland and many of the world’s poorest with unstable democracies.
        GDP for all $10 trillion, 50% of 3 – which is by just the UK, India and Canada

        That’s why we ditched them when we joined the EU

        Commonwealth?

        • Edward2
          Posted July 22, 2018 at 7:41 am | Permalink

          No real response to the figures Libertarian provided.

      • Newmania
        Posted July 21, 2018 at 9:11 pm | Permalink

        NAFTA is the USA and local dependent economies Canada and Mexico . To put this in perspective California 2.62 USD tri Canada 1.65. The USA is a successful multi state trading block requiring the complete sacrifice of political independence for its constituent parts .
        India is growing at about 7% faster than China . Both countries were prefigures by Japan the post war miracle country.The UK has recently been obliged to beg Japan to let it copy the EU`s trade agreement. This was created without any input form the UK. Words fail me !

        Economies by size

        USA 19.39
        EU17.30
        China 12.04
        Japan 4.87
        Germany 3.68
        UK2.61
        India 2.60
        France 2.53
        Brazil2.05

        • Edward2
          Posted July 22, 2018 at 7:43 am | Permalink

          You and Margaret both seem to think leaving means never trading with the EU after we leave.
          Very odd.

  71. Nigel Seymour
    Posted July 21, 2018 at 8:51 am | Permalink

    The Irish PM is the absolute lightweight in EU circles. just ‘Plane’ and simple…

  72. PrezleB
    Posted July 21, 2018 at 12:59 pm | Permalink

    The irish PM may not be too wide of the mark when I read that air space for air travel is not covered by WTO rules

    • Ken Moore
      Posted July 24, 2018 at 12:08 pm | Permalink

      “there is no World Trade Organisation (WTO) fallback position for aviation traffic rights in the event of a hard Brexit”, a fact which has been conveyed to the Irish government and the European Commission.

      This is affirmed by the European Commission, which has no hesitation in backing the Irish position, It says that EU rules in the field of air transport will no longer apply to the UK after Brexit, which would have “consequences in the different areas of air transport”. Not least, of course, EU Member State carriers “will no longer enjoy traffic rights to or from the territory of the United Kingdom”.
      But Dr Redwood just assumes it will all be fine.
      Regarding project fear we all know what happened to the boy that cried wolf too often…

  73. Peter D Gardner
    Posted July 22, 2018 at 2:42 pm | Permalink

    Mrs May is right now embarking on yet another variant of Project Fear touring the constituencies. She told the parliamentary committee last week (The Liaison cttee?) the Government will write to individuals and businesses telling the why they should back her BRINO and what they should do in the event of No Deal. What they should do! What about what she should be doing and should have done by now? Talk about polishing the proverbial.
    And Dominc Raab pops up to say he’ll make the £39 billion payment conditional on a trade deal. He thinks the EU will wear that? David Davis told the Brexit Select Committee way back in Dec or January that the bulk of these payments would be made during the transition period starting in 2019.
    the idea that Uk can claw back what it has already conceded and agreed is absurd. The only realistic path from the White Paper onwards is one of more concessions. T\that’s reality so stop your romantic illusions May and Raab.

    • Peter D Gardner
      Posted July 22, 2018 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

      Unless, of course, UK changes its Prime Minister. Then and only then could it credibly claw back not just one but every single concession and start again. But not otherwise.

    • Simon Coleman
      Posted July 28, 2018 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

      There’s no need for Project Fear any more. A lot of Leave MPs are now seriously worried about a No Deal outcome. We import so much food, medicines – and labour – from the EU that the first few weeks will be chaotic. And the uncertainty could drag on for months if there are just short-term arrangements in place. If we get to a No Deal situation, then Project Fear will look like Project Minor Worries compared to the reality!

  74. Ken Moore
    Posted July 24, 2018 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    The freedoms of the air which are given effect by Regulation (EC) No 1008/2008 automatically lapse when the UK leaves the EU. And, with regard to that, a spokesman for the IAA has said: “There would need to be a new agreement in place to maintain the existing level of connectivity between Europe and the UK”.

    • Simon Coleman
      Posted July 28, 2018 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

      Thanks for that clarification. Mr Redwood tends to make things up as he goes along, so facts like this are really helpful.

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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