The Lib Dems stake out the undemocratic extreme

“Demand better” says the boomerang Lib Dem slogan. That’s good advice when the Lib Dems come round with their proposal to block the wishes of the people and try to overturn the results of the 2016 referendum. Standing on a clear ticket for delay, watering down of Brexit and even a second referendum on terms, they slumped to just 7.4% of the vote in the 2017 election. They had not found the moderate middle, the friendly centre of gravity of the UK electorate as they claim. Their views were far from democratic, as they railed against the decision of the UK voters in 2016. Nor were they very liberal, as they dreamt up another Manifesto of regulations, higher taxes and exhortations to all of us to change the way we live our lives.

It’s a crowded space, this search for the so called moderate centre ground. It is defined as going back to Brussels, saying we are sorry for ever thinking of leaving, and accepting the full swathe of laws, taxes, budgets and common policies that characterise the modern EU. What ever is either moderate or democratic about such an agenda? How is it democratic for more and more laws to be made behind closed doors, drafted by officials we cannot sack or make accountable, and approved by Ministers from 27 countries under pressure not to rock the boat? What is liberal about the austerity policies of the EU’s budget controls, requiring higher taxes, lower spending and lower deficits from countries mired in unemployment in the south and west of the EU? How is the EU’s policy of helping pay for Turkey’s heavily defended borders with the Middle East moderate? What is green about the fishing discard policy or the dash for diesel and the reliance on coal for power by Germany? Why does everything proposed by the EU get through without a whisper of criticism? When will they apologise for the huge damage the Exchange Rate Mechanism did to the livelihoods and businesses of many in the UK, or for the revenge the Euro crisis visited on Cyprus, Greece, Ireland and Spain?

The outgoing Leader of the Lib Dems cannot make up his mind exactly when he will leave his job. Maybe he should hold a party referendum on the topic. Nor does he have any confidence in his fellow MPs, saying that they need to open up the contest for a new Leader to people not in Parliament. I guess as he believes laws should be made in Brussels and more control pass to the EU there is a kind of logic to not bothering whether a party leader can argue, question and vote on what we do here at home in our own legislature. It is a further sign of his insouciance towards UK democracy. Into this private debate with a few voters has intruded Tony Blair. A man who did well out of leading the Labour party, he has gone as far as he dare to say his own party under new leadership cannot win an election, and maybe Labour members like him should look around for a new party. Perhaps he has in mind a Social Democrat pro EU break away from Labour, rather like in the 1980s. They would doubtless need to join up with the Lib Dems.

Others looking at this crowded postage stamp of a political position include the hard line group of pro EU Labour MPs who call themselves moderates and who spend most of their time disagreeing with the electors when they are not disagreeing with their own Leader over most things. All of them suffer from the same underlying problem. There has never been a large market for a pro EU party in the UK. When John Stevens set up the pro Euro Conservatives it gained just 1.4% of the vote in the European elections. It peaked at under 4% in the Kensington and Chelsea by election to Parliament and was disbanded owing to a lack of voter support shortly afterwards. I doubt there would be much of a market on the left for a pro EU Labour party that made its peace with the Establishment on a number of issues where Corbyn is more radical. The pro EU Social Democrats never won new seats in a General Election. The Lib Dem result last time should be a warning to them all that trying to stop Brexit gets you to a very poor third place.

What they seek is no moderate centre they can capture. Supporting a new sell out to the EU is far from being a moderate position to adopt.

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162 Comments

  1. Nig l
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 5:20 am | Permalink

    In terms of anti democracy let us not forget Nick Clegg had a referendum as a Lib Dem policy but renagued on it when he feared he would lose.

  2. Old Albion
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 5:25 am | Permalink

    Sometimes I wish the Libs were a centre ground alternative to Labour and Conservative. I’m constantly disappointed.

  3. BCL
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 5:34 am | Permalink

    There’s only one problem in Parliament that matters at the moment. Not enough MP’s are democrats. They asked the people what we wanted to do and have spent all their time since we told them trying to find ways not to do it. Constantly repeating “I respect the result of the referendum” while trying to undermine it at every turn doesn’t fool anyone. If that was going to be their attitude they shouldn’t have asked us. To ask and then ignore/thwart just makes us cross and is bad for democracy. The more trouble there is in the Labour Party the better. Go on, split into a new SDP. Much good that did them. If labour does itself enough damage, who knows, it might make Mrs May re-electable.

    • Tad Davison
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

      They were looking for legitimacy. They were hoping they could say, ‘Well it was the people’s choice to remain’. It didn’t quite work out that way because they haven’t the intelligence to accurately see how fed up we are with the EU and all its works. And despite the Westminster parties loading the dice in their own favour. We voted out, now we want out, and they who wish to deny us are messing with a disgruntled electorate that will turn round and bite them hard if we don’t get it!

      They shouldn’t rule out civil disobedience if they fail to deliver.

      Tad

      • Steve
        Posted September 10, 2018 at 12:53 pm | Permalink

        Tad

        “We voted out, now we want out, and they who wish to deny us are messing with a disgruntled electorate that will turn round and bite them hard if we don’t get it!”

        They shouldn’t rule out civil disobedience if they fail to deliver.

        Exactly. I’ve been saying this since project fear emerged and the intent to thwart brexit became obvious. But reminding those in power that history repeats itself often results in being branded some kind of fascist, despite the fact that the current political situation is of their making.

        They think shooting the messenger makes the possibility of civil wrath vanish.

        They need to think again.

  4. Adam
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 6:31 am | Permalink

    Vince Cable tries to re-light his dud squib, unaware that the EU loaded it with damp sand under their ban bang rules.

    • Peter
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 11:11 am | Permalink

      Lib Dems are strong in SW London. Voters here will not elect Labour so turn to Lib Dems when Conservatives fall out of favour. However, nationwide Lib Dems are a spent force. Local Lib Dem councillors opposed a property development of 700 homes when in opposition. Now they are in power it is going ahead with 950 homes. And I thought the Conservative council was bad.

      That said, none of the established parties have anything to be proud of. I am constantly reminded of George Carlin’s rant ‘The American Dream’ :-

      The politicians are there to make you believe you have freedom of choice. You don’t. You have owners. They own you.”

  5. Gary C
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 7:02 am | Permalink

    Well done Boris.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 10:05 am | Permalink

      Indeed he is quite right. May & Hammond are massive liabilities to the EU negotiation. They are also economic liabilities, robotic, electoral liabilities, greencrap liabilities, gig economy liabilities and tax, regulate, borrow and piss down the drain, paternalistic socialists to boot. May even seems to wants anti-male discrimination put into law too with her absurd gender pay gap drivel. To May and Hammond Brexit means Brexitina – which is even worse than remain.

      They are just not Conservatives in any sense and never were. May is even worse than Cameron perhaps even worse than the appalling John ERM Major. No change no chance as Major showed in spades.

    • rose
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 11:32 am | Permalink

      If the hypocritical opposition to Boris had policed our borders as enthusiastically as they police his language, we wouldn’t have any suicide bombs.

      • Steve
        Posted September 10, 2018 at 1:02 pm | Permalink

        Rose

        Fully agree.

        I find the treatment of Boris Johnson to be quite disgusting. The latest thing is his exposure for allegedly having an affair, and his impending divorce.

        What business is it of anyone else to be informed of Mr Johnson’s marital matters? This is why I don’t buy papers.

        Clearly it is a smear campaign by those who fear him, and I for one don’t buy into their undignified tactics.

        Leave the man’s personal life out of it I say.

  6. mickc
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 7:10 am | Permalink

    Not just the Lib Dems. …when will the Tories apologise for the ERM disaster? God knows how Major can spout about the EU after his decision to take us into it….

    • Lifelogic
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 10:08 am | Permalink

      Indeed. Politicians only seem to apologise for things they had nothing to do with as pathetic virtue signaling.

      The potato famine or slavery for example. Never for disasters they personally caused.

  7. Anonymous
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 7:19 am | Permalink

    Yeah. We saw plenty of bland yellow on the blue caps and flags that had taken over the Proms last night. This is the future – along with the EU flag emblazoned on our troops last week. A sea of blue and yellow with no history and no meaning.

    I hope these are seen as a wake up call rather than a rallying call.

    • bigneil
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:19 am | Permalink

      Anon – I’m surprised the BBC hasn’t banned those at Proms from singing “Britain never never never shall be slaves” – As we work and pay more taxes so thousands of foreign freeloaders can arrive monthly and be handed lives on our taxes for nothing- it seems the song is already dead.

    • miami.mode
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:38 am | Permalink

      The supreme irony of people waving EU flags at the Proms whilst singing Rule Britannia.

      • Andy
        Posted September 9, 2018 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

        No irony at all. You can be proud to be British and European. I was proud of both. Though the Little Englanders have removed any pride I had in Little Britain.

        • Anonymous
          Posted September 9, 2018 at 8:53 pm | Permalink

          Blandy Andy. A sea of conformist blue and yellow is all that I could see.

          Totally sovietised.

          Sorry but your comment didn’t warrant any higher thought.

        • Edward2
          Posted September 9, 2018 at 8:56 pm | Permalink

          You need to choose Andy.
          Be a citizen of the United Kingdom or a member of The United States of Europe.

        • NickC
          Posted September 10, 2018 at 9:41 am | Permalink

          Andy, I don’t recall you being previously proud to be British. Quite the reverse. I think you are a new “Andy”, and I demand my £5.

      • margaret howard
        Posted September 9, 2018 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

        miami

        No irony at all – just another example of our common European heritage because the song was first performed at Cliveden, country home of the Hanover born Frederick, Prince of Wales (the eldest son of George II and father of the future George III, as well as the great-grandfather of Queen Victoria), in 1740, to commemorate the accession of George II and the third birthday of the Princess Augusta.

        A masque linking the prince with both the medieval hero-king Alfred the Great’s victories over the Vikings and with the then building of British sea power –

        • libertarian
          Posted September 10, 2018 at 11:32 am | Permalink

          Margaret Howard

          How hard is it to know the difference between Europe a continent of 54 diverse and ethnically separated countries and the European Union a politically constructed Federation of 27 countries lead by an unelected oligarchy?

      • Den
        Posted September 9, 2018 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

        More ridiculous is that those naive europhiles do not understand their irony. That is the result of the EU-funded (With British money) Educators indoctrination of their pupils. And these are supposed to be our future? Yuk!

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 12:52 pm | Permalink

      I recall watching that long ago, when it was broadcast in black and white, at a time when we had a disaffected minority of citizens who had transferred their primary allegiance to the Soviet Union. But few of them dared to flaunt their treachery by waving a flag with the hammer and sickle in the way that EU loyalists have been encouraged to wave the flag of their would-be new country, or empire; and which British politicians started that process of undermining national loyalty, even while still representing themselves as the patriotic party? Which party was the first to display that blue and yellow flag on its conference platform?

  8. Fedupsoutherner
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 7:32 am | Permalink

    Sorry but I switch off every time I hear that pompous, egotistical idiot speak. His party is defunct and I wish he were too. Add Clegg into the mix and its truly disastrous.

    • eeyore
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 11:15 am | Permalink

      Lib Dems seem these days not so much democrats as people who hang about near democracy hoping it will buy them a meal.

      They need not worry. In 2010 on of the secrets of British politics was revealed: you don’t have to vote for a Left-wing party to get a Left-wing government. Who needs Lib Dems when you have the Parliamentary Conservative Party?

    • Posted September 9, 2018 at 6:18 pm | Permalink

      Don’t be ”sorry”, Fedup. There are so many of us, of the silent majority, who feel the same as you. Sometimes it feels as though we’re shouting into the wind. While, at the same time, hoping that we will not be let down by those who we’ve looked upon as our true representatives. No more, sadly.
      I’m about to write to my local MP, who is the Undersecretary of State for the Department for Exiting the European Union. He was a Remainder who said he’d stand by the will of the people.
      Oh, yeah? He and Mrs May have lost my vote and many of those I know. I have written to tell him so.

  9. Posted September 9, 2018 at 7:36 am | Permalink

    The scandal of the Labour Party stinks to high heaven. Just when we need an alternative to the Conservative MrsMay they go completely to pieces!
    Mrs May’s brave attempts will come to nothing. M. Barnier makes that clear every time he opens his mouth.
    A hard Brexit is going to cause disaster – even the Police are waking up to that at last.
    The only game in town is rapidly leaving the field: Brexit as planned then EEA through the Efta route. Not perfect but the least worst option.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:41 am | Permalink

      Well, Mike, the good news is that at least once that “option”, which is not actually an “option” at all, has left the field we may no longer have you posting your derivative thoughts about it here but never sticking around to answer any criticisms.

      • Mark B
        Posted September 9, 2018 at 4:44 pm | Permalink

        And what if he is right ? Some how I doubt he will be telling everyone I told you so.

        Personally I think it will create much harm but we will survive. Worse has happened .

    • Jagman84
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:42 am | Permalink

      Still wrong, Mr Stallard. However much you repeat it! There is no such thing as a ‘hard’ Brexit (or Brexit, for that matter) It is akin to talking about a hard or soft freedom. You are either free of the EU or you are not. The EEA drags us back into their clutches and allows them to lessen the advantages of the UK leaving.

    • Anonymous
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:47 am | Permalink

      Therein lies the reason why we got Brexit. Only one game in one town.

      UK civilisation nearly came to an end in 2011. The police could barely control things then. Their numbers were cut savagely by May and whilst in the EU !

    • NickC
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 10:01 am | Permalink

      Mike Stallard, The idea that the UK actually being an independent country “is going to cause disaster” is totally absurd. You obviously don’t think through what you’re saying. Most countries in the world are independent of the EU. It is being frightened of independence that will cause disaster.

    • getahead
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 5:46 pm | Permalink

      Mike, “Brexit as planned then EEA through the Efta route” is not by any stretch of the imagination, Brexit. I voted to leave mainly to regain sovereignty for our country.
      Neither EFTA or EEA give us that sovereignty.

    • Posted September 9, 2018 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

      ”Project Fear”, Mr Stallard?

  10. Tredo
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 7:49 am | Permalink

    What an appalling rant. Untruth after untruth. Let me pick just one. No laws are made behind closed doors in the EU. All are made openly, by Council and Parliament, both made up of democratically elected polticians. Your eagerness to misrepresent the EU is nothing new, but your inaccuracies get wilder. You sound rattled? I think you fear a second referendum now your stories about how easy Brexit will be have unravelled

    Reply Untrue comment- I attended many Council of Ministers meetings to legislate behind closed doors with no official report either of what was said.

    • Prigger
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:53 am | Permalink

      @Tredo
      Try going down your road with clipboard and ask people to name six EU top politicians in Brussels,incorrect pronunciations of names accepted…..and then speak of EU democracy.

      • margaret howard
        Posted September 9, 2018 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

        The same applies to my road here in East Anglia where few people could mention any politicians apart from perhaps those connected with some scandals. Nothing to do with democracy or the lack of it but general public ignorance.

    • NickC
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 10:13 am | Permalink

      Tredo, What an appalling rant. Untruth after untruth. Let me pick just one. All laws are made behind closed doors in the EU. All are made opaquely by the EU Commission as a result of political intrigue behind closed doors including Corporatist lobbying. Only then are they endorsed by the toothless fig-leaf EU parliament, which is not made up of democratically elected polticians because there is no demos. Your eagerness to misrepresent the EU is nothing new, but your inaccuracies get wilder. You sound rattled? I think you fear the first referendum now your stories about how hard Brexit will be have unravelled.

    • Richard1
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 10:37 am | Permalink

      It is certainly the case that EU laws are not subject to the same sort of public debate and scrutiny as are laws made at Westminster. It’s one of the reason you get bad law – like forcing diesel on us.

      • margaret howard
        Posted September 9, 2018 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

        Scrutiny by the unelected House of Lords?

        • Edward2
          Posted September 9, 2018 at 8:58 pm | Permalink

          No real power over us unlike the unelected Commission.

        • Richard1
          Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:50 pm | Permalink

          Public debate at least and debate and scrutiny both by the HoC and the HoL. Doesn’t make it perfect but at least there’s democracy in action. Did you ever hear a discussion on eg any questions on GDPR or mifid2 whilst they were in the works?

    • Reno Fardner
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 11:42 am | Permalink

      Give an example. A concrete detailed example

      • Edward2
        Posted September 9, 2018 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

        Diesel REACH GDPR New regs on copyright and the internet.
        I have more if you want reno

        • Repiman
          Posted September 9, 2018 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

          All debates are on the record

          • Edward2
            Posted September 9, 2018 at 8:59 pm | Permalink

            What difference does that make?

    • acorn
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

      You wait till we are out of the EU. This page will then be full of rants against the stupid WTO; rants about brexit being done wrong by stupid remainiac politicians and remainiac civil servants.

      I wonder if we will get to read the ERG 62 Alternative Chequers plan, before or after we get to a vote on section 13 of the EU (Withdrawal) Act 2018? (Parliamentary approval of the outcome of negotiations with the EU.)

      • Posted September 9, 2018 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

        Perhaps you would tell us, Acorn, how you had envisaged life if we’d remained under the heel of the EU? Perhaps you could paint a picture of how our great and glorious future would have panned out, had we decided to ‘remain’.

        It won’t take you long.

        I am truly sick of people telling us how we were wrong to want to be rid of the EU, while not telling us WHY we should have wanted to remain. Even ONE argument would have been quite outstanding in the silence.

      • NickC
        Posted September 9, 2018 at 6:45 pm | Permalink

        Acorn, We already use the WTO global trading system. Brexit is being done wrong: we voted to Leave so that we could be as independent of the EU as Australia is. Read the Robbins WP: it proposes rejoining most of the competences of the EU via new bilateral treaties and agreements. That is not Leave, it is Remain.

    • G Wilson
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

      Of course EU laws are made behind closed doors. GDPR is an excellent example – a terrible law, all kinds of unintended consequences, and no chance for the UK to change it.

      The EU “Parliament” is effectively powerless. The executive is the Commission, which we cannot elect or influence.

      • Tad Davison
        Posted September 9, 2018 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

        The clue is in the name GW – Commission – appointees by another name, but that seems to pass these remainers by.

        Tad

    • Roy Grainger
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

      Both Juncker and Tusk are on the European Council and neither were democratically elected. If you’re going to accuse others of untruths I would advise you to stop peddling your own untruths first.

      • Reno Fardner
        Posted September 9, 2018 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

        It appears you dont know the difference between the Council and the European Council. Do please stop parading such ignorance

        • Edward2
          Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:21 pm | Permalink

          Both are not elected by the people of Europe.

      • acorn
        Posted September 9, 2018 at 3:47 pm | Permalink

        Google: “Rift between Juncker and Tusk deepens over Spitzenkandidat process”. Juncker came to power after his centre-right European People’s Party won a majority in 2014 EU elections. Member state leaders, don’t like the election system; it gives the democratically elected EU Parliament, too much power.

        • NickC
          Posted September 9, 2018 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

          Acorn, The EU parliament is not democratic because there is no demos. Moreover, there were elections in the GDR, but even that didn’t make the GDR democratic.

          • acorn
            Posted September 10, 2018 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

            I am assuming you know the difference between European “demoicracy” (as in demos) and Western style “democracy”. The rule of the demoi, as invented by the Greeks; translates into Parish and District Councils in the UK. All of which are elected by popular vote. Where is the “demos” problem?

    • margaret howard
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

      Tredo

      “What an appalling rant. Untruth after untruth. Let me pick just one”

      Let me pick another one.

      ” What is green about the fishing discard policy”

      EU policy saved the cod which was about to face extinction through over fishing but has now recovered. As you said – untruth after untruth – shameful.

      • Edward2
        Posted September 10, 2018 at 6:12 am | Permalink

        Nonsense margaret
        Cod was not facing extinction.
        It exists in many seas in huge numbers.
        Throwing dead fish back into the sea was a ridiculous policy.
        The price mechanism would have worked better.

      • libertarian
        Posted September 10, 2018 at 11:40 am | Permalink

        margaret howard

        Whoops, wrong again

        According to the very Green World Wildlife Fund and I quote

        “This situation is the legacy of a failed EU Common Fisheries Policy (CFP) and successive EU fisheries ministers turning a deaf ear to the dire warnings of their own scientists. The EU’s fisheries ministers have also collectively failed to agree a recovery plan for North Sea cod.”

        Untruths eh margaret? Facts are pesky things . Any other made up reasons to remain?

      • Know-Dice
        Posted September 10, 2018 at 11:57 am | Permalink

        On the fishing topic, it is important that any future licencing arrangements tie the licence to British ports and cannot be resold only returned to the Government…

  11. sobeit
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 8:01 am | Permalink

    What you are talking about is complete nonsense- ‘a sell out to the EU’?

    The EU wouldn’t have us now not even if we were going at knockdown price, fire sale, bargain basement cost, the EU will not have us, not under any circumstances, not for this generation, not for the next..not with Canada Plus, nothing..they have had enough..so all of you followers of JR, J R-M and BJ ‘suicide vest’ types please rest assured your wish will come fairly soon March 2019

    • BOF
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:16 am | Permalink

      ‘The EU wouldn’t have us now not even if we were going at knockdown price’.

      You have cheered me up this morning, sobeit.

    • NickC
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 10:15 am | Permalink

      Sobeit, You’re another absurd Remain: the type of person who has convinced himself that it is impossible for the UK to be independent of the EU.

      • margaret howard
        Posted September 9, 2018 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

        We begged to join and the public voted overwhelmingly to remain in 1975.

        • Anonymous
          Posted September 9, 2018 at 8:58 pm | Permalink

          Yet the same people who voted Remain in 1975 are deemed too old, too stupid and too uneducated to have an opinion on the EU today.

          Only when it suits you, eh Margaret ?

        • Edward2
          Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:00 pm | Permalink

          The common market.
          We never voted to join the EU

        • libertarian
          Posted September 10, 2018 at 11:45 am | Permalink

          mh

          17,378,581 voted to stay in the EEC in 1975 , those like myself who voted to stay have changed our minds based on events, facts and actual performance.

          17,410,742 Voted to leave ( thats more people) in 2016

          Strange that you celebrate our original vote but etc ed

      • Drachma
        Posted September 9, 2018 at 5:52 pm | Permalink

        Nick C..fifty years ago we had all of the structures in place to be a great trading nation which we were with ships ports the empire and a conveyor belt trade system extending as far as new zealand..but the times have changed and we have changed too with a JIT style import export calais dover on roro ships. We are not equipped or ready yet to reverse to trading with other countries far away..would someone please explain to me how this is going to work? We don’t even have the expertise in place for such drastic changes..it’s all very well saying to WTO rules but there is an awful lot more to it than that.

        • Edward2
          Posted September 10, 2018 at 6:14 am | Permalink

          Go to Felixstowe and have a look.
          Millions of containers coming and going all over the world.
          One of over 20 ports in the UK.

        • NickC
          Posted September 10, 2018 at 9:52 am | Permalink

          Drachma, You are still living in the 1930s. Wake up, a lot of our manufactured imports come from China nowadays, including JIT. Isn’t that far enough away for you? We get food from Kenya, Egypt, India, China, New Zealand, Brazil. Isn’t that far enough away for you? All of it under the WTO global trading system. It works already.

        • libertarian
          Posted September 10, 2018 at 11:53 am | Permalink

          Drachma

          Before posting I suggest you do some research. You clearly dont have a clue what Just In Time supply chains are, clue its NOTHING to do with geography or the EU.

          We ALREADY trade more than 56% of our current exports via WTO all over the world

          What is it about remainers that they live locked in an out of date bubble?

          Heres a thing Blue Sea Fisheries recently said that it costs more to send their produce to London by train from Devon than it does to ship to China

          Felixstowe is the biggest of more than 20 UK ports shipping containers all over the world

    • Richard1
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 10:49 am | Permalink

      If the EU gets what they are aiming for -full access to the UK market tariff free, full control of the UK regulatory set up through ‘alignment’ if not actual membership of the Single market and customs union, payment of £39bn and probably more in the future, they will have scored a major victory. No competitive threat from the UK, no loss of markets, no loss of money, but not having to worry about the UK’s resistance to federalism.

      for us in the UK that would be a terrible outcome – worse than remain. Certainly worse than clean Brexit.

    • Roy Grainger
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

      Donald Tusk, who I assume knows more about it than you, says otherwise, he is desperate to keep us in the EU.

    • Adam
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

      sobeit:

      If we have reached a stage where the EU will not ‘have us’, that is a soothing position of advancement.

  12. John S
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 8:03 am | Permalink

    Scratch a Liberal and you will find a fascist.

    • Prigger
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:55 am | Permalink

      @JohnS
      I’m not sure fascists would appreciate the insult

    • Tad Davison
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

      True. The term ‘liberal fascism’ is gaining in credibility, and much to our detriment.

      Tad

  13. Sir Joe Soap
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    But it makes their job easier!
    Being part of an outer circle means never having to take responsibility for your ideas going into operation. Then gravitating towards the wishes of professional lefty lobbyists and corporate interests,things get even easier for them. All the way until the ballot box intervenes.

  14. A.Sedgwick
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 8:17 am | Permalink

    …. and there was Dave’s crass decision to let Nick into the act – twice – TV broadcasts and coalition government.

  15. hans christian ivers
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 8:22 am | Permalink

    JR,
    Did you have a particular bad evening last night as the whole World seems to be under criticism except your own party with is also in a real mess?

    • Jagman84
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:47 am | Permalink

      Isn’t that what the Labour mouthpiece, the BBC, seemingly exists for? They are far better at the job!

    • Row rowrowyourboat
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 10:06 am | Permalink

      @hans christian ivers
      Parliamentary Labour is the only party in history where every bench has two weeks of experience of being on the front bench within the last two years.
      Row, row, row your boat
      Gently down the stream,
      Merrily merrily, merrily, merrily
      Life is but a dream

    • NickC
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 10:33 am | Permalink

      Hans, The reality is we are much more enmeshed by your rotten EU than even most eurosceptics thought. So much for the lying Remain propaganda that the EU is just a bunch of friendly co-operating European countries. The EU is made of politicians, by politicians, for politicians. The last couple of years confirms that the EU is our enemy. More so than even I realised hitherto.

      • Andy
        Posted September 9, 2018 at 5:56 pm | Permalink

        Awww. You didn’t understand. Shame. I thought you knew what you were voting for?

        • Anonymous
          Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:03 pm | Permalink

          So which EU party do you align yourself with, Andy ?

          No Googling.

          Your response should be quicker than you can say LibLabCon.

          Who are your MEPs and which parties do they belong to ? Quickly !

        • Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:53 pm | Permalink

          And you were voting for the EU status quo, were you, Andy? Pity you’d never have got it. Haven’t you realised that yet?

        • NickC
          Posted September 10, 2018 at 10:01 am | Permalink

          Andy, Read more carefully: it is you Remains who did not know how deeply enmeshed by your rotten EU we were. We knew, that’s why we voted Leave. Sometimes, though, it is difficult even for me to credit how corrupt the EU is, and how much it is our enemy.

      • hans christian ivers
        Posted September 10, 2018 at 8:09 am | Permalink

        NIckC

        My EU I was not aware I had anything to do with it, so please, explain?

        • libertarian
          Posted September 10, 2018 at 11:56 am | Permalink

          hans

          “My EU I was not aware I had anything to do with it, so please, explain?”

          Hallelujah I think he’s got it. Thats entirely the point hans, the EU has no demos, it doesn’t represent anyone, we can’t influence it. Its not ours. Its an oligarchy, stop supporting it and allow democracy to flourish

      • hans christian ivers
        Posted September 10, 2018 at 8:57 pm | Permalink

        NickC

        there is no enemy except in your own mind

    • mancunius
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 1:08 pm | Permalink

      You sound like the bad-tempered one here. The LibDems are not the whole World (or even world) – very far from it.

  16. Peter Parsons
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 8:33 am | Permalink

    In a democracy, people have the right to campaign to reverse previous decisions. Did the Conservative party pack up and go home after 1997, 2001 or 2005 or did they campaign to overturn those decisions?

    To quote David Davis, “a democracy that is unable to change its mind ceases to be a democracy”. This article reads like, in the context of the 2016 referendum, there are those who wish to see the UK cease to be a democracy.

    Reply The Conservative party accepted defeats in elections. We did not demand a re run or accuse the voters of being stupid

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 10:17 am | Permalink

      In a democracy, the government does not use £9.3 million of taxpayers’ money to deliver an official leaflet to every household in the country saying:

      https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf

      “A once in a generation decision”

      “This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide.”

      “The EU referendum is a once in a generation decision.”

      and then turn afterwards and say that as they think we have made the wrong once in a generation decision the notional period of a generation will be shortened by an order of magnitude, make it the same number of months rather than years.

      There were forty-one years, two or more generations, with five major amending treaties, between the 1975 referendum on whether to stay in the EEC and the 2016 referendum on whether to stay in the EU, and hypocritical eurofanatics who are now calling for another referendum because they lost the last one were not only undisturbed by that chronic lack of democracy, many of them actively sought to prevent us having a direct say, what they now call a “People’s Vote”.

      • Edward2
        Posted September 10, 2018 at 6:17 am | Permalink

        Excellent post.
        Well said Denis.

    • NickC
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 10:40 am | Permalink

      Peter Parsons, We haven’t even had what we voted for yet. Let us see what independence actually looks like for at least the sort of term a Parliament has as a minimum, and preferably the 45 years you Remains have had.

      I would be quite sanguine about a “second” referendum provided the questions are not rigged. Every Remain demand for another referendum that I’ve seen eliminates the option that Leaves voted for – independence. And if one option is to re-apply to the EU, then there must be an option to apply to say the USA as well.

    • libertarian
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 11:51 am | Permalink

      Peter Parsons

      FIRST you have to implement the democratic decision , THEN if you dont like it you campaign against it or to overturn it. What has NEVER happened EVER before is to vote , get a clear decision then to immediately want to change it because you didnt get the result that one side wanted .

      You haven’t changed your mind though , you want what you always wanted and you are throwing a tantrum because you didn’t get it. That is NOT how democracy works

      • Andy
        Posted September 9, 2018 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

        Don’t you get it? They can’t implement the ‘democratic decision’ because what you voted for does not exist. It is a fraud, a fake, not real. Vote Leave made a series of promises – and that is all there is any sort of mandate to deliver. Liam Fox’s wet dream was not on the ballot paper.

        The Brexit you voted for is undeliverable. That is not the fault of anyone who voted Remain. It is the fault of those of you who fell for the lies of the snake oil salesmen.

        • Edward2
          Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:03 pm | Permalink

          Leaving is easy.
          Its staying half in that is a disaster

        • Anonymous
          Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:05 pm | Permalink

          Oh the Brexit we voted for is deliverable.

          Keeping us half in the EU like May has tried is what is undeliverable.

        • Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:58 pm | Permalink

          And what about the ”remain” situation, the EU status quo, that YOU and your ilk voted for? Does THAT exist? You have been scared by Project Fear. Stop reading Facebook.

          Someone said on this very site (sorry, can’t remember who) that if the right are defeated, then they just get on with it till they have a chance to change things in a democratic way – if the left are defeated, they scream and shout and cry ”unfair”!

          Try democracy, Andy – you may even find you like it when you grow up.

          • hans christian ivers
            Posted September 10, 2018 at 8:10 am | Permalink

            L.Jones

            Who is now not grown up?

        • NickC
          Posted September 10, 2018 at 10:03 am | Permalink

          Andy, Don’t you get it? Independence is perfectly deliverable. Are you saying it’s impossible for the UK to be independent of the EU?

        • libertarian
          Posted September 10, 2018 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

          Andy

          Wrong as usual, we just leave , it really isn’t difficult. What the remain government is trying to do is to leave whilst staying in and quite rightly the EU dont want that and nor does the leaver majority

          Independent countries not in the EU dont exist Andy? Are you sure, I can find at least 168 that aren’t in the EU.

          Oh and by the way three other countries left the EEC/EU before us with no problem and they were all tiny. The worlds 6th largest economy can manage it quite well really

    • Andy
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 5:40 pm | Permalink

      I am not demanding a rerun of the last referendum either. I just don’t appreciate the angry pensioners telling us that the country can never reconsider Brexit ever again – which is what your party is doing. That is not democratic.

      • Edward2
        Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:04 pm | Permalink

        We waited 40 years for a referendum.

      • Anonymous
        Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:07 pm | Permalink

        I’m a little older than you.

        I voted Brexit. You are being undemocratic.

      • Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:59 pm | Permalink

        PS We’re not all ”pensioners”, Andy. How many more times must you be told?

      • Chewy
        Posted September 9, 2018 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

        Lots of posts!
        I personally wouldn’t say there should never be another referendum. But both sides clearly stated again and again that this was a once in a generation vote. And I don’t think there was any caveat about it being the generational timespan of a hamster.
        So to propose a referendum where Remain reappears on the ballot paper within 3 years of that vote is simply a non starter. Had there been a clear statement from the Remain side that if Leave did win then there would have to be a subsequent referendum on the final terms then fair enough. But then Remain wouldn’t have stood a chance. As it was even with a huge government sponsored campaign, all the so called experts warning of calamity, and the Remain campaign exploiting the issue that a Leave vote was a leap in the dark, Remain lost. Therefore considering a Parliament sits for 5 years, normally, to call for a Remain rerun after such a short time span ….. well!!

      • NickC
        Posted September 10, 2018 at 10:08 am | Permalink

        Andy, We haven’t had Brexit yet. We have not exited the EU yet (and may never do so if Parliament has its way). So when we have exited, and we are actually independent of the EU, and when we have settled down after the change, then by all means let’s have another referendum.

      • libertarian
        Posted September 10, 2018 at 12:09 pm | Permalink

        Andy

        When your children reach voting age they are perfectly entitled to form a political party or pressure group to campaign to join what ever EU federal group exists then .

        However FIRST we must fully implement the democratic decision of the majority of UK voters .

        The thing is, if you and your mates were right about what a disaster leaving is going to be, then if you had a brain you would be urging us to fully leave , experience the pain of being outside and then begging to rejoin. The issue is though Andy you are terrified that Brexit will be a massive success for the UK and will bring about the breakup of the EU . That will mean your below minimum wage East European nanny will leave so you dont want it to happen

  17. Stred
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 8:42 am | Permalink

    Boris has flushed the benighted traitors out of the Foreign Office in no time at all. They were working to undermine Brexit with May from the start.

    • Jagman84
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 10:01 am | Permalink

      And we worry about Russian spies! The EU has whole Government departments working for the Common (Purpose) good.

    • Chris
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

      He needs to go to the “school of President Trump” where he can learn some real lessons. He is merely at the door, but the signs look hopeful. Can we trust him to deliver this time? The prize is a saved country with prosperity and independence, plus a new “Conservative” Party which actually represents true grassroots Conservatives and not the PC, cultural Marxist, left liberal leaning ones that we have in power at the moment.

  18. Richard1
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 8:59 am | Permalink

    Clearly Cable is leaving the path open for a Labour MP to lead the LibDems. Quite why the likes of Chukka Umuna and Yvette Cooper are still in the Labour Party – notionally campaigning for a bunch of (words left out = allegations about attitudes to terrorist groups and anti Semitism) Marxists to take over the government – beats me. They ought to reverse into the LibDems en masse. If there were enough of them presumably they become the official opposition. The greatest threat to prosperity – and democracy – in the U.K. today is a possible Corbyn / McDonnell government.

    • Richard1
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:03 am | Permalink

      Corbyn is a much bigger cause of economic uncertainty than Brexit. Most of my friends and contacts in business from other countries, now living in the U.K., whilst not enthused by Brexit, regard the prospect of a Venezuela type Govt here with horror, and wont be hanging around to see how it works out.

      • Jagman84
        Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:56 am | Permalink

        Corbyn and co. would be ousted within days, if they were to win a GE. The Chukka Umunna and Yvette Cooper wing (“No shadow cabinet post thanks”!) would make their move. This is what the sitting MP, de-selection battles, are all about. The balance of power is the key. If Momentum are successful, the mooted new party or a drift to the Lib Dums will be a reality.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted September 9, 2018 at 10:12 am | Permalink

        Indeed and May and Hammond are doing their very best to give us the appalling Corbyn/McDonnall/SNP trip to Venezuela.

        I still think it will, just about, be avoided but perhaps I am deluding myself.

      • Rien Huizer
        Posted September 9, 2018 at 10:43 am | Permalink

        Brexit breeds Corbyn

        • NickC
          Posted September 9, 2018 at 6:53 pm | Permalink

          Rien, Wrong, Corbyn got elected to leader in 2015 well before even the Referendum. And we haven’t had Brexit either.

          • Rien Huizer
            Posted September 10, 2018 at 7:21 pm | Permalink

            Prediction

        • Richard1
          Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:55 pm | Permalink

          Corbyn was elected leader of Labour before Brexit and before Brexit looked likely. He looked most unlikely ever to win an election until Mrs Mays catastrophic campaign of 2017, a year after the referendum.

      • Dennis
        Posted September 9, 2018 at 12:06 pm | Permalink

        Richard1 – “regard the prospect of a Venezuela type Govt here with horror,..”

        You forgot to add ‘with gross meddling of the US.’

  19. agricola
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:14 am | Permalink

    The middle ground is where the majority are when they are content. A position from which you can feel generous of thought. Cows ruminating in a lush green field with only udder pressure to concern them. Well life is not like that, the farmer is thinking of going arable, prospects for cows are not good.

    For Homo Sapiens opinions are polarising throughout Europe, principally because he is rarely consulted about anything within the EU. He may protest during national elections, but only to be ignored at EU level. Given time this pressure cooker will blow, and everything the EU was created to avoid will in fact occur.

    Out of the EU our priority is to create a vibrant economy that benefits all. From such grows contentment and a middle ground. At present it is an empty field.

    • Oxiana321
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

      I like your cow metaphor. I agree that the mistake Remainers are making is to assume that the EU in its present form will save us all from future conflict. From the start, the flaw in the EU plan was to foist a new European Federation on the electorate without providing them with the opportunity to influence the course of the ship.

  20. Andy
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:24 am | Permalink

    Quaint. It is nice when those at the extremes of politics worry about those in the centre.

    The concern is not mutual.

    What the country is finding out now from the car crash extremist government and the car crash extremist opposition is that centreism is the least worst alternative.

    • Edward2
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

      extremes of politics…..come on andy get real.
      And the Lib Dems are not in the centre they are moderate left.
      On many policies they are to the left of Labour (pre corbyn)

    • NickC
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

      Andy, You are an extremist Remain; and you don’t even know why.

      • Andy
        Posted September 9, 2018 at 8:47 pm | Permalink

        I am a passionate Europhile – and I know exactly why.

        It is because I learned the lessons of history – and you didn’t.

        • NickC
          Posted September 10, 2018 at 10:18 am | Permalink

          Andy, I suggest you re-learn the lessons of history then. Wars in Europe have occurred as politicians attempt to re-create the Roman empire, or attempt to takeover independent neighbouring nations. It’s happening again; just in slow motion because the EU conquest has been bureaucratic.

          • hans christian ivers
            Posted September 10, 2018 at 8:59 pm | Permalink

            NIck C

            You really need to read up on your contemporary history

        • libertarian
          Posted September 10, 2018 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

          Andy

          You obviously didn’t learn any lessons from European history

          1) There have been 35 wars, revolutions, coups, insurgencies and uprisings in Europe since the EC/EU was formed

          2) The conditions for internal strife in many EU countries is now at a similar level to 1930’s Germany

          3) The EU has not adapted to or embraced changing technology or the digital world which is why even the EU themselves admit that they will become a minor part of global trade over the next 20 years

          4) They have not learned that European people value freedom and democracy , as a people we have removed ourselves from the yoke of racism and communism , third time lucky with dictatorships won’t work ant better than the first two attempts

        • mancunius
          Posted September 10, 2018 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

          Laughable. We’ve already established that you have only the vaguest notion of any period preceding the 1980s.

  21. Paul Cohen
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:24 am | Permalink

    Boris is presenting himself presently as a shambolic and disconnected figure, not someone to rely on.

    We need some grown-ups in the room , and quick!

    • libertarian
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

      Paul Cohen

      Nope had enough of so called grown up politicians. People disconnected from the every day reality of life. Although Johnson is from a privileged background he has always resonated with ordinary people. He is a smart operator. Every single leftie politico and media outfit fell for his Trumpesque dead cat .

  22. Ian wragg
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    All the things you criticise the Limp Dumbs for apply to the Tories.
    We have an EU fanatic for P.M. and Chancellor.
    Wasting £billions on aid and stupid HS2.
    May is content to sell us out to Brussels whilst lying witb every utterance.
    Time is running out for a change in direction
    If you do nothing a thuggish Marxist government is waiting in the shadows.

  23. NickC
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:42 am | Permalink

    Headline in the Sunday Telegraph: “Theresa May gambles on disaffected Labour moderates to get Chequers Brexit plan through Parliament“. I did say that we will get the Robbins White Paper (Chequers) revolving-door Remain because of the Remain majority in Parliament, and so with Labour help. Whether Corbyn jumps too is moot. Brexit is over bar the recriminations and the Tory party meltdown. It was nice whilst it lasted.

  24. Simon
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 10:11 am | Permalink

    So where is your alternative Brexit plan in writing now Mr Redwood?

    Not so easy is it after all ?

    Probably as well it was binned because the leaked contents so far are absolutely hilarious.

    Reply Its written and will be published soon. My version has been available on this site for many months

  25. Row rowrowyourboat
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 10:12 am | Permalink

    @hans christian ivers
    Parliamentary Labour is the only party in history where every bench has two weeks of experience of being on the front bench within the last two years.
    Row, row, row your boat
    Gently down the stream,
    Merrily merrily, merrily, merrily
    Life is but a dream

  26. NHSGP
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 10:20 am | Permalink

    Manifesto of regulations, higher taxes and exhortations to all of us to change the way we live our lives.
    =========

    So what happened to those tax cuts?

    Ah yes, Tories abandoned those mid week.

    John you need to realize that people will compare what you say against the reality of what is going on.

    • agricola
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

      To be fair what John says is mostly what he thinks. Though he is a loyal member of the Tory party he is not afraid to disagree with them in the politest possible way. What is going on is a shambles. The leadership is in something of a priest hole, detached from the party in the country, and from many colleagues in the house. Collectively they offer little that is coherent or likely to satisfy the 17.4 million who voted leave. Even worse in a way they have no clear idea of what to create for the UK after we leave. Within this vacuum John has advocated an acceptable, to me ,way forward.

  27. English Pensioner
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 10:28 am | Permalink

    The problem is that all our political parties have been moving slowly to the left since my younger days. I suspect that analysis of the policies of Labour under Atlee and the Conservatives under May, would show our present Tories are to the left of Labour’s position in the late forties.
    Anyone trying to adopt the position of the Tories after WW2 would now be described as ‘Far-Right’ or ‘Extreme Right’, particularly by the ‘impartial’ BBC.

  28. Denis Cooper
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 11:13 am | Permalink

    Well, it’s Sunday morning, so we have the General Secretary of the TUC on TV revealing her ignorance by arguing that we should emulate Norway by staying in the EU Single Market and Customs Union, while Sajid Javid correctly points out that CETA alone offers no solution to the invented problem of the Irish border, Canada no more being in any customs union with the EU than Norway is in any customs union with the EU; but also gratuitously, maybe deliberately, giving Remoaners the opportunity to say:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/09/sajid-javid-refuses-to-rule-out-disorder-in-case-of-no-deal-brexit

    “Sajid Javid refuses to rule out civil disorder in case of no-deal Brexit”

    because somebody who wants to impede Brexit has leaked a report:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/police-plan-for-riots-and-crimewave-if-there-is-no-deal-brexit-frbbnjjqp

    “Police plan for riots and crimewave if there is no-deal Brexit”

    presumably knowing that they can do that with impunity, as such leaks are permitted if not actively encouraged by a government which is both overtly and covertly working to undermine its own official policy; while the Labour MP Chuka Umunna is allowed to make derogatory personal comments about certain individual supporters of Brexit, comments made on air which I would say could well be actionable, and goes on to cite as proven fact this load of rubbish from Mark Carney in May:

    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/the-six-tricks-mark-carney-used-to-cook-up-his-brexit-costs-you-900-figure/

    “The six tricks Mark Carney used to cook up his ‘Brexit costs you £900’ figure”

    So just another typical Sunday morning of wall-to-wall anti-Brexit propaganda, and I suppose all the duty officers at the Rapid Rebuttal Unit of the Department for Exiting the European Union are in church, or having long lie-ins with breakfast in bed.

    • Anonymous
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:09 pm | Permalink

      Deep State activism.

      • Anonymous
        Posted September 9, 2018 at 9:11 pm | Permalink

        The Proms hijack and the EU insignia on UK troops is a serious misfire for Remain.

        Both looked awful.

  29. Shelagh Sneddon
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    I really wanted to vote Liberal Democrat at the last election. Sadly, my constituency is a Labour one vulnerable to a swing to the Conservatives, with any other party nowhere. As I disliked the policies the Conservatives were running on, I reluctantly voted Labour, and our MP was duly returned with a larger majority. At a general election people vote for all sorts of reasons and often vote tactically. It cannot be taken as a verdict on the popularity of any individual policy.

  30. lojolondon
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 12:43 pm | Permalink

    “Maybe he should hold a party referendum on the topic.”
    Problem is, John, the man himself may be too indecisive to take the step without a firm push, so he may arrange a party referendum, but what to do when the result is not what was desired by the party elite? Remember how ignorant and unimaginative, the common people are, obviously referendums can only be trusted when the people make the ‘right’ decision, otherwise we have to refine the terms and announce another!

  31. Brian Tomkinson
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 1:02 pm | Permalink

    What is the “moderate centre ground”? If we are to assume it is the postion central between Labour and the Conservative parties then it has shifted well to the left now that Labour has been taken over by intolerant Marxists. Add to that the shift to the left of Conservatives under Mrs May’s appalling leadership. We can only hope that before too long your party is going to replace the leader. Labour needs to replace its leader too; whichever party moves first may well take an unassailable lead in public opinion and support.

  32. mancunius
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

    “Standing on a clear ticket for delay, watering down of Brexit and even a second referendum on terms”

    At least they did stand on such a ticket. Conservative MPs stood in 2017 on leaving the EU completely, on Lancaster House terms, at least 50% of them (we know who they are) keeping their fingers crossed behind their back, as their chief desire was and is to thwart brexit and remain in the EU in all but name, and to charge the future taxpayer for the EU contrib utions that will be paid as a quid pro quo for the cosy advantages given to global multinationals lobbying in the CBI and IoD.

    These Tory MPs naturally support Theresa May’s treasonous Chequers plan.

    At least the LibDems are consistent.

  33. Viewer
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    I see, Sajid Javid was on the Marr Show.
    Couldn’t find fault with anything he said, not one little bit really.
    We British love finding a fault even the tiniest fault.
    He let us down badly.

    • mancunius
      Posted September 9, 2018 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

      “We British” – nice try! ;-))

  34. Roy Grainger
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

    Cable has the odd idea of encouraging the Blairite Kanour MPs and the Remainiac Tory MPs to split and form a new party but then says the LibDems would not join it. He seems to have a death wish.

  35. Mick
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1014968/Last-night-of-the-proms-EU-flags-anti-Brexit-campaign-sabotage-British-brexit-news
    What a bunch of traitors these Eu loving bastards are, if it were the 1940’s they would have been rounded up and shipped to there beloved Europe, but there again what do you expect from the brain washed Londoners they wouldn’t have got away with it in my part of England muppets

  36. Denis Cooper
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 2:01 pm | Permalink

    JR, did you happen to notice what Frances O’Grady, the General Secretary of the TUC, told Andrew Marr this morning?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/09091802.pdf

    “What the Prime Minister should be doing now is seeking an extension on Article 50 so that we don’t crash out in March … ”

    Setting aside the question of how the other EU leaders would react to any such request, whether for just an extension of the two year period or for cancellation of the notice of withdrawal, the effect of European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017:

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2017/9/contents/enacted

    was solely to empower the Prime Minister to put in the notice, which she did, it does not impose any restriction on what she may do afterwards; so as far as that Act is concerned she could have asked for the notice back the day after she had sent it, or she could now ask for an indefinite extension to the specified two year period.

    On the other hand that Act was only necessary because the Supreme Court held that she could not rely on prerogative powers to put in the notice, and by the same token it could be argued that she could also not rely on prerogative powers to vary the terms or the effect of the notice, and so she would need another Act to authorise her to do that.

    You could count me in for a contribution to any crowd funding needed for court action to keep her on the straight and narrow and prevent her trying to cheat us, but I hope that if any such legal action does become necessary it will be initiated in time.

    By now we have learned that she cannot be trusted an inch.

  37. Jason Wells
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    As Michael Gove once famously said- it will all work out provided we take the right decisions

  38. Den
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

    I shall never forget Lord Ashdown, ex-Lib Dem leader, on TV declaring that the people’s decision on the EU Referendum, must be honoured. Alas, after the result, yet another flip-flop from the party most experienced in such political gymnastics. The result noe becomes ‘unfair because we did not know what we voted for’. LOL. And such despicable behaviour from these wretched Lib Dems is all because we came up with the ‘wrong’ answer.

    It is clear that democracy works with the Lib Dems ONLY when they are in agreement with it. And for that reason they are most suitably aligned to the unelected oligarchy who rule the EU. And for that reason alone, they are most unsuitable to ever govern a Free Britain.
    Anyone or any party seeking to overturn the democratic decision of the British people is unfit to govern us and should neither be permitted to stand for Parliament nor ever be appointed to the House of Lords.
    Any chance of that being made British Law? Alongside the result of a National Referendum is always to be honoured and within a set time scale. Any chance of copying the Swiss Referendum system? That is real people power.

  39. Den
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    Vince Cable, a man so bizarre and so dull he will never be remembered – Not even as a “Has-been”.

  40. Denis Cooper
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 4:39 pm | Permalink

    It’s difficult to know how lies like these can be countered when the government itself has no interest in countering them:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6146981/Jacob-Rees-Mogg-reveals-Chuck-Chequers-plan-tax-cuts-NHS-funding-boost.html

    “Under a hard Brexit, the UK would pay tariffs on goods and services it traded with the EU. These tariffs range from 32 per cent on wine to nine on cars.”

    So really it’s something of a mathematical curiosity that the average tariff imposed by the EU actually lies outside that range from 9% on cars up to 32% on wine:

    http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/09/07/where-is-the-uks-tariff-schedule-for-march-30-2019/#comment-959490

    “… while it’s not straightforward to calculate the average tariff our exports to the EU would face without any special or preferential trade deal it could be 1 – 2%, which is an order of magnitude lower than when we joined the EEC.

    On the graph on page 7 of this House of Commons Library Report:

    https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN06730

    in 2011 the trade-weighted average of the EU’s MFN tariff was just over 1%.

    Putting that in the context of our whole economy, our exports to the EU, goods and services, comprise about 12% of our GDP, so the tariffs levied on the goods would be equivalent to less than 0.2% of our GDP.”

  41. Prigger
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 6:59 pm | Permalink

    One day, I shall write them off, literally. I owe my Country the UK so much, I have to somehow.

  42. Edwardm
    Posted September 9, 2018 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    So clearly stated.
    I just wish other MPs could see things for what they are – if they could see, there would be few wishing to be on the Lab, Lib and red-Tory benches.
    They have so little self awareness, don’t see their own irony (in their view a democrat is one who reduces democracy) and are unfazed in being so apart from the electorate on big issues such as Brexit and immigration.
    So serious yet so unreal, and so epitomised by the LibLabCon party leaders.

  43. Nigel Seymour
    Posted September 10, 2018 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    So, Here we are with 12? Lib Dems and a whole bunch of them in the Lords. They are politically impotent and hang onto a single policy they hope will resonate with voters namely no Brexit – not a vote on a deal but NO BREXIT! I wondered at the time why Farron chucked in the towel and left Cable with a sort of poison chalice? . We now have the spectre of Gina Miller and/or George Soros entering UK politics by the back door! How frightening is that !!!!!!!!!!!

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    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, He graduated from Magdalen College Oxford, has a DPhil and is a fellow of All Souls College. A businessman by background, he has been a director of NM Rothschild merchant bank and chairman of a quoted industrial PLC.

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