The EU’S borders

The main issue tackled at Salzburg is of great interest and concern. How many migrants should the EU admit? What controls should it place at its external border to control numbers arriving? How many of those borders should be hard physical borders with walls and fences, watch towers and plenty of staff? The EU has helped fund just such a tough border for Turkey with the states to the south, and some states like Austria and Hungary have also built their own walls and fences with razor wire.

The EU has a European Border and Coastguard service or Frontex, with a headquarters in Warsaw. The informal Council discussed whether this should be substantially beefed up with 10,000 new recruits to help member states handle the big issues of entry into the EU. To date Frontex has always claimed member states have the responsibility for policing their own borders, to an approved set of common rules. Frontex has access to specialist personnel and equipment to come and assist where there are particular problems or pressures. Recruiting many more staff would be a precondition for Frontex becoming a much more active participant in border security. Frontex offers ships, trained personnel and surveillance equipment.

Member states are divided on this issue. There is a strong wish to see tougher common EU border security, but also in some cases a reluctance to surrender power to police the border to an EU authority. Some states like Hungary and Austria have pushed their interpretation of EU policy a long way in the direction of hard  borders and tough controls. The EU is now responding. It has a good relationship with Egypt to deter migrants from that country. It is now collaborating with the Libyan coastguard so more people rescued at sea who started out from Libya are returned to Libya. It is looking to enter agreements with more North African states, just as it has done with Turkey. In return for substantial sums of money, Turkey has agreed to provide a home for Syrian refugees and not to send them on to the EU.

Mr Salvini in Italy is pressing hard for a much tougher EU stance on migration. He has been refusing boats the right to land, and has recently organised the removal of a Panamanian flag from a charity boat that brings migrants from the sea to the shores of Italy, to remove the boat’s right of passage. The EU do not like his approach, but so far have been unable to stop it.

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123 Comments

  1. Lifelogic
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 5:19 am | Permalink

    It is a difficult problem but you really do have to seriously deter people from coming other than through official routes. Otherwise more and more will clearly follow.

    Meanwhile is seems Labour is very determined indeed to destroy the economy by promising to steel people’s investments and assets and to undermine Brexit. What a collection of dangerous idiots they are.

    Not easy for May/Hammond to point out the damage this will all do as they have (but to a lesser degree) essentially the same socialist, tax borrow regulate and waste policies as they do.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 9:02 am | Permalink

      steal!

      More drivel from Labour about creating “green” jobs. All created of course by huge “renewable” subsidies that are paid for from huges taxes that destroy many (perhaps 4 times or so) as many jobs as are “created”. Plus it gives us expensive and unreliable energy too. Not much movement on the vast number of windfarms off Brighton today. What is the daily depreciation on this huge mad “investment”?

      • Fedupsoutherner
        Posted September 26, 2018 at 9:44 pm | Permalink

        Spot on LL. All these job loses were predicted years ago. Renewable energy is devastating to the economy and to much of our wildlife. The numbers of birds and bats killed are covered up by the wind industry. The jobs that are misplaced are also not reported. The ruse in consumers bills are mainly due to renewable energy. So much loss!!

  2. Lifelogic
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 5:33 am | Permalink

    It is reported that Hammond wanted to continue with what is essentially a blatantly racisist immigration policy of discriminating against non EU migrants regardless of merit and in favour of EU ones rather than looking at each case on a fair basis.

    What a very silly man the Chancellor seems to be.

    • John Hatfield
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

      You are too polite, Lifelogic.

  3. Narrow Shoulders
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 5:39 am | Permalink

    There should be no numbers permitted, a limit encourages people to travel.

    Many asylum claims are bogus, refugees do not automatically get asylum, thy are merely displaced.

    The only way to stop Africans travelling across the sea is to send them back if caught or picked up. David Cameron had the right idea, give aid in the camps and allow asylum claims only from outside our countries. These people are already voluntarily displaced, so, to them, to where they are sent back is unimportant

    Feeling sorry for these individuals does not make good policy.

  4. Iain Gill
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 5:44 am | Permalink

    Meanwhile the British government issue visas like confetti.

  5. Ian wragg
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 5:44 am | Permalink

    Well done Salvini.
    The BBC are in overdrive on the subject of unskilled immigrants.
    According to them UK plc will grind to a halt if we start controlling immigration.
    They needn’t worry because May will no doubt renege on FoM.

  6. DUNCAN
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 5:46 am | Permalink

    What triggered this mass movement of cheap labour from Africa and Syria? It all ties back to one man, Obama. And one woman, Merkel. Just join the dots. Without the maintenance of German productivity the EU will collapse.

    • margaret howard
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 5:10 pm | Permalink

      Duncan

      I can answer your Syria question.

      Mrs Merkel was the only world leader with enough compassion to alleviate the tragedy of refugees caused by the illegal wars and invasions by US/UK which has destabilised the whole region. Millions had already fled before she offered some hope to the survivors.

      It cost her much unpopularity but history will judge her to in a different light.

      • mancunius
        Posted September 26, 2018 at 8:24 pm | Permalink

        Sorry to disagree, but history has already judged that Merkel did nothing. (See for example the statistical analysis, ‘Merkel war es wirklich nicht’ in Die Zeit, 11 October 2016.)
        Merkel ‘alleviated’ nothing and ‘offered’ nothing: she was simply unable to stop the crowds of determined migrants heading from Greece towards the nirvana of the most attractive high-wage, high-benefit western economy. The (formerly armed) Bundesgrenzschutz had turned itself in 2005 into just another national police force, so (as with Greece, Austria and the Balkans) the German federal states had no way of defending themselves against the tidal flood of determined young men.
        Merkel then pretended post-hoc that this social disaster was an opportunity for German industry. The Germans are so far increasingly unimpressed.

      • Edward2
        Posted September 26, 2018 at 8:38 pm | Permalink

        You keep saying “illegal wars” margaret.
        Have you told the Police of your evidence.
        They will take action.

        • margaret howard
          Posted September 27, 2018 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

          Not sure whether you read my reply before JR saw fit to delete it.

          • Edward2
            Posted September 28, 2018 at 6:46 am | Permalink

            No I did not.
            Casually repeating the word illegal is ridiculous.
            An elected PM can take a nation to war.
            You may not like that decision and its outcome but it is the ballot box that is your solution.

    • Timaction
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

      Google Barcelona Agreement and you will have your answers. As always the EU. Anyone would think they want to undermine the sovereign states, feelings of identity, culture and values of Christian Countries. All this is supported by the mass migration legacy parties!

      • Stred
        Posted September 27, 2018 at 6:23 am | Permalink

        The IOM/UN instructs governments to accept economic migrants as refugees. Merkel and May do as world government says. They believe in it. Trump tells the UN to get lost but they cooperate. At least Merkel pays less in foreign aid than May likes to. She gets other EU countries to pay for her mistake.

  7. Norman
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 5:52 am | Permalink

    Fundamentally, this is about national identity, which in turn, is based on the family, individual relationship and freedom. In the past, offering sanctuary to fugitives from famine or oppression was deemed the Christian thing to do. But now, something altogether different is going on, and there clearly have to be controls, if the host culture is not to be overwhelmed or even replaced. Our efforts should rather be , as far as we can, to help resolve issues in the source countries.
    Mrs Merkel’s well-meaning ‘open arms’ policy, and the erroneous edicts of Establishment Religious figures, should be interpreted in the light of Acts 17:26: “and [God] hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;” The bounds of their habitations are an expediency against reversing Babel – a key feature of the EU itself, and a sign of its Antichristian direction. This is also why the left hates Israel, branding them racist. People of the world, be warned!

    • Dave Andrews
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

      I liken the EU to the Tower of Babel.

      An analogy that is probably lost on most people.

      • Norman
        Posted September 26, 2018 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

        Quite so, Dave – despite the European Parliament building in Strasbourg being modeled on it. Who is being mocked here??

  8. Bob Dixon
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 6:08 am | Permalink

    When do we get to see the border controls improved, after the 29th of March 2019? How are the many ports and airfields around the UK to be secured? Which Minister is responsible?

  9. Mark B
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 6:15 am | Permalink

    Good morning

    Where does one begin with this ?

    I think we need to be clear. Those coming from the continent of Africa are NOT refugees. They are economic migrants with little or no skills. They therefore need to be sent back. Only by doing this will we stem the tide and discourage others from attempting the same dangerous passage.

    The EU and FRONTEX do indeed have technology and ships. Paid for by the UK tax payer. Will the EU pay for us to effectively police their borders ? Will our government demand they the EU pay for the use of the Royal Navy that provides a free ferry service between Africa and the EU. They seem to demand that we pay into their services.

    I am reminded that strong borders / fences make good neighbours. So a beefing up borders is no bad thing. Shame that they seem it OK to punish Hungary for wanting strong borders but are happy to pay the non-EU Turkey. Now there’s a thought 😉

  10. Newmania
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 6:15 am | Permalink

    This all seems quite reasonable , it is an issue that should be of concern to Europe and there is hardly likely to be one view . No-one cares what we think any more of course

    • Anonymous
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 3:29 pm | Permalink

      There’s the problem.

      The EU doesn’t care what its populace thinks – so off we go.

      • Anonymous
        Posted September 27, 2018 at 8:06 am | Permalink

        “there is hardly likely to be one view ”

        Yup.

        The modus operandi of the EU. Make consensus impossible and default to the Commission’s aims.

  11. Andy
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 6:26 am | Permalink

    The word migrant is used a lot. Here is a better word for them: people.

    These people, to whom many of you vehemently object, fall mostly in to two categories.

    1) Those fleeing war, terror, famine or persecution. Imagine how desperate you have to be to risk your life – and the lives of you children – in a dodgy dinghy in the Med. Imagine if the alternative to that is worse? These people deserve our compassion and our help. They have predominantly received our hatred and scorn. It is entirely an accident of birth that none of us are in their shoes. Our behaviour, as a country, is to our shame – and it is the fault of the government.

    2) Economic migrants. People who want to do whatever they can to improve their lot in life. They are prepared to give up their lives, their family, their friends, their background to make their lives better. These people are exactly what Conservatives think we should all be like. And yet many of you don’t like them.

    • Sir Joe Soap
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

      You haven’t thought this through.

      First, to that the logical conclusion of an “open borders” world is that we all live to the lowest common denominator, including those migrants who came here to seek a better life. They will infact enjoy nothing other than taking advantage of our forefathers’ hard work, toil, suffering and death to preserve a civilised and prosperous environment from which we can help the developing world without them all coming to us.

      That brings me to my second point in wondering what your forefathers would say to you telling them – forget what you fought for – I’m just giving all that away and allowing anybody who wishes to pillage it. Like your children and their children to be, in the end your forefathers wouldn’t be too impressed with your attitude either.

      Think it through.

      • Anonymous
        Posted September 26, 2018 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

        I’m surprised you bothered, Sir Joe.

    • Anonymous
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

      Sigh.

      You forfeited your right to be read yonks ago.

      Stop reading him, folks. He’ll go away.

    • Dave Andrews
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

      If you worked out that the UK’s share of those two categories for the entire world supply of people with miserable lives, meant multiplying the UK population several times over, would you still be so welcoming?

      Nevertheless, I agree with you that these are people, to be helped where possible.

      • Andy
        Posted September 26, 2018 at 8:27 pm | Permalink

        Yes, I would help regardless – however many there are. Because it is about decency, not just numbers.

        Bad things happen to good people. And vice versa. And if people are unlucky enough to get caught up in war – or other tragic circumstances – then they deserve compassion and help.

        Remember this. You might be a refugee someday. It might not be a war that forces you from your home. It might be a natural disaster like a flood or a famine. If you are unfortunate enough for this to happen to you, I hope others will treat you with compassion.

        • Edward2
          Posted September 27, 2018 at 7:26 am | Permalink

          So no limits.
          Million every year then.
          Cties the size of Manchester or Birmingham to be biult every year.
          Says andy waving his virtue signalling flag as we collapse as a nation.

        • Anti Hypocrite
          Posted September 27, 2018 at 8:09 am | Permalink

          Refugee centre and council estates for Beaconsfield please.

          Plenty of opportunity for you to pay voluntary tax and take some into your home, Andy.

          Like all socialists you expect others to bear the brunt.

    • margaret howard
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

      Sir

      “That brings me to my second point in wondering what your forefathers would say to you telling them – forget what you fought for – I’m just giving all that away and allowing anybody who wishes to pillage it.”
      ==

      Britain has invaded/settled more countries than any other European nation.
      America, Australia, New Zealand – all English speaking and settled by British people often pushing the native population into the margins or exterminating them.

      • Anonymous
        Posted September 26, 2018 at 7:07 pm | Permalink

        Oh. That settles it then. Let ’em all in.

      • ki
        Posted September 26, 2018 at 8:04 pm | Permalink

        As the Romans, Vikings, Saxons and Normans did to England. What’s your point?

        • margaret howard
          Posted September 27, 2018 at 11:53 am | Permalink

          ki

          That happened just a century or so ago in a so-called civilised, christian country, not 2 thousand or a thousand years ago.

      • Edward2
        Posted September 26, 2018 at 8:39 pm | Permalink

        And what a tremendous job we did.

      • Fedupsoutherner
        Posted September 26, 2018 at 9:58 pm | Permalink

        Margaret. Why do I get the impression you don’t like your country? Whatever could make me think that?

    • Adam
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

      Andy:

      How many of the people you describe have you helped with accommodation in your own home for more than 3 months?

  12. Fedupsoutherner
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 6:28 am | Permalink

    All I can say to that is good for Mr Salvini. Illegal immigrants should be returned from where they started. Most have no papers so if that is not where they normally reside then that’s tough. Europe and the small island of the UK can’t take in the world much as some would like. Mind you, I’m sure Andy and the likes would be only too willing to share their homes with someone they know nothing about including any criminal record.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

      Well, logically Andy would say that the word criminal is used a lot but there is a better word for them, people, and so he would be happy to share his home with them.

    • Andy
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

      An illegal immigrant is, by definition, illegal. I hate to tell you but post Brexit there will still be immigrants who arrive illegally. Indeed, the problem will probably get worse because Mr Grayling and others just want us to wave all lorries through. Apparently that is what you voted for. Who knew?

      • Edward2
        Posted September 26, 2018 at 8:40 pm | Permalink

        Most are waved through now.

      • Posted September 26, 2018 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

        ”I hate to tell you” – since when does ill-wishing the UK not give you pleasure, Andy?

      • Fedupsoutherner
        Posted September 26, 2018 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

        Reply to Andy and Dennis. I think most people on this blog would disagree with your posting.

  13. Stred
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 6:39 am | Permalink

    The EU is planning a US style visa system for visitors, costing 7E, by 2020. Visitors are not their problem. Mass economic migration from Africa and Asia is the problem and subsequent high birthrate of migrants, whilst young native people cannot afford to have children.

    The UK should offer to match their visa system but have a zero charge if they do likewise.

  14. Stred
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 6:42 am | Permalink

    Their visa system will enable them to block visitors from the UK such as retired ISIS fighters and war criminals.

    • Dave Andrews
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

      I doubt it. Tony Blair will still probably get in.

      • Mark B
        Posted September 27, 2018 at 5:10 am | Permalink

        Post of the day

  15. oldtimer
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 6:46 am | Permalink

    This sounds like an evolution of the Australian solution to the problem of large scale illegal and unwanted migration. Pay vast wads of money to the country from which they were departing for Australia.

  16. Adam
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 6:55 am | Permalink

    A nation’s border security is as essential as each of its citizen’s domestic front door.

    Would anyone sensible transfer authority of their home to an EU bouncer?

  17. SecretPeople
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 7:07 am | Permalink

    >In return for substantial sums of money, Turkey has agreed to provide a home for Syrian refugees and not to send them on to the EU.

    But yesterday Erdoghan was reported as saying that the cost to Turkey of housing the refugees was £32bn (not sure of currency from memory), whereas the EU had given him only £3bn. Not sure how long his ‘goodwill’ will last, or how paying such sums to African countries is financially viable.

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 9:53 pm | Permalink

      Secret people. Ha,ha. Could have predicted that months ago.

  18. Sir Joe Soap
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 7:15 am | Permalink

    Notice you chose to ignore May’s low tax speech. Judge people by their actions not their words was never truer than in the present Conservative party.

  19. agricola
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 7:17 am | Permalink

    The EU has been too slow , as has the UK, in manning it’s borders effectively. The EU seem to be waking up to the need at last, having suffered from terrorism and a crime wave instituted by immigrants in many cases. The key question for the UK is what is it going to do to rectify the results of none existent borders. I refer to the to the estimated 2million illegals we have in the UK, the terrorists and criminals we have in jail, and the wave of stabbings in London and elsewhere. Where do you stand on deporting them. For me they are a luxury the UK does not need.

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 9:55 pm | Permalink

      Absolutely Agricola

  20. Adam
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 7:19 am | Permalink

    People who force themselves into other nation’s land need Haven.

    Haven is a purpose-built remote Safe City in central Africa at willing nations’ expense. People breaking into other nation’s borders illegally would be directed to Haven, & issued with citizenship. Haven citizens would do paid work according to capability & obtain housing, medical care & other appropriate essentials for harmony. Every Haven citizen would have the opportunity to apply to live in any country in the world, & be accepted on merit.

    If there is a simpler, better solution, why doesn’t one exist?

    • John Hatfield
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 7:18 pm | Permalink

      Adam, your solution does not answer the problem of burgeoning African populations seeking an overflow.

      • Adam
        Posted September 27, 2018 at 8:13 am | Permalink

        John Hatfield:

        Haven is a concept initially to remedy illegal entry to the UK & European nations, John. It would be the building of an entirely new African city, & others depending on measured performance against objectives.

        Beyond population growth, overcrowding is a consequence of too many people being attracted to cluster within the same space. Africa has space & warmth.

        London is vastly overcrowded with people & cluster attractors. In earlier decades the Location of Offices Bureau was assigned to attract business out of London to other parts of the UK. The results were so effective that their objectives were eventually reversed. Now extreme congestion has recurred.

  21. Richard1
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 7:56 am | Permalink

    Brexiteers are coming under a lot of criticism for making friendly overtures to and remarks about the nationalistic governments of Poland and Hungary. Do you have a view on the conduct of these governments and whether the UK should join in the chorus of opprobrium?

  22. Denis Cooper
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 8:00 am | Permalink

    These mass inflows of illegal immigrants are no accident; those of us who are old enough to have seen it have known for a long time that this is what some in the EU want.

    Legal or illegal makes no difference, let alone skilled or unskilled making any difference.

    Just plucking this out of the file, from 2000, 18 years ago, and not the earliest:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/jul/28/immigration.immigrationandpublicservices

    “Europe ‘should accept’ 75m new migrants”

    Ordinary citizens do not get a say in this; that would smack of “populism” or “nationalism” or “identitarianism” or “nativism” or some other unacceptable “ism”.

    • forthurst
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 10:03 pm | Permalink

      It’s not specific to the EU, it’s specific to a particular group of people.

  23. Know-Dice
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 8:09 am | Permalink

    I have no problem with controlled immigration and here comes the BUT, after encouraging UK young adults to go to university and get saddled with large debts, don’t allow immigrants under cut them in the jobs market.

    When it comes to jobs British citizens should have the first bite of the cherry…

  24. GilesB
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 8:21 am | Permalink

    Individual states can guard their own borders. There is nothing physical that the EU can do that the individual states cannot do. Therefore, by the principle of subsidiarity, guarding borders should be implemented by the individual member states.

    What policy each state should apply is a different question. If the nation states choose to each have the same policy, then the EU will have a common policy: otherwise they do not.

    Or subsets of nation states can agree to arrangements like Schengen and the Dublin agreement. But none of these arrangements require the implementation of border policy to be taken away from the individual member states.

    There is only one plausible reason for expanding FRONTEX and taking the responsibility away from the nation states: so that the EU bureaucrats can impose a migration policy against the wishes of a legitimately appointed government of a nation state.

  25. homebird
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 8:23 am | Permalink

    The EU stance is correct. The ‘Aquarius’ crew and the other do gooders are only acting as a pull factor while they hang about Libyan waters. At one time Aquarius was registered in Gibraltar but we didn’t see many being landed there- then there was a change of flag to Panama? So let’s be sensible- we can clearly see from TV pictures that most of these supposed refugees migrants out of Libya are coming in the main from West Africa and sub-saharan africa, all young mostly male, you’d have to wonder if we did rescue them and brought them all Europe- what the hell are they going to be doing with themselves in say four or five years time..all living together in high rise somewhere.. no this would be a big mistake and only be storing up big troible for the future..much better If Nigerians or others from that part want to want to go for refuge somewhere then they have plenty of choice nearer home . The Syrians peoples suffering is a different matter entirely and we should do all we can can to help these poor people.

    • Bob
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

      Many of them pose as Syrians, when a rudimentary check would reveal that they’re not.

  26. Bob
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 8:33 am | Permalink

    The asylum system has been so abused as to be not fit for purpose. It’s become a loophole for human trafficking. The EU under Frau Merkel’s influence has been encouraging this trade and is culpable for the death and human misery that has resulted. I’m glad that some EU leaders have finally said enough is enough, notably Hungary, Poland and Italy.

    • margaret howard
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 9:59 pm | Permalink

      Bob

      ” The EU under Frau Merkel’s influence has been encouraging this trade and is culpable for the death and human misery that has resulted”
      ==

      An outrageous calumny. She should be given the Nobel prize for showing compassion to the millions of Syrians fleeing a Middle East destabilised by the illegal US/UK wars starting with Iraq. No other politician had the courage she showed.

      • Stred
        Posted September 27, 2018 at 6:58 am | Permalink

        Mutty should get the Nobel prize for cancelling German nukes and building lots of dirty lignite stations instead with wind turbines everywhere working fot quarter of the time. Proof of her success is that Germany is increasing CO2 emissions, unlike other countries such as the US and UK.
        What a disaster Merkel and May are.

      • Bob
        Posted September 27, 2018 at 7:19 am | Permalink

        @margaret howard

        ” She should be given the Nobel prize for showing compassion”

        Perhaps she could have Barack Obama’s one, ‘cos he also did nothing to earn it.

      • Edward2
        Posted September 27, 2018 at 7:29 am | Permalink

        Bob is right.
        Asylum is routinely abused.
        It was meant to be the nearest safe haven.
        Those who travel across many nations to get to Germany France and UK are illegal economic migrants and should be returned like Australia did.

        • margaret howard
          Posted September 27, 2018 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

          Yes, Australia set a fine example – a nation of immigrants only a couple of hundred years ago turns away desperate asylum seekers.

          No doubt they remember how their forefathers treated the native residents when they arrived!

          • Edward2
            Posted September 28, 2018 at 6:52 am | Permalink

            They were illegal economic migrants serviced by criminal gangs of people smugglers.
            Many were drowning on route.
            Australia showed that they would not get into Australia by those illegal means.
            They were welcome to apply to enter by the methods everyone else does.
            Australia has almost totally defeated these criminal gangs and saved thousands of lives since.

      • Know-Dice
        Posted September 27, 2018 at 8:21 am | Permalink

        Margaret, as you clearly are a historian…you should know that the problems in the Middle East didn’t start with Iraq.

        So, how far back to you want to go?

        Iraq invading Kuwait
        Iran Iraq war
        CIA involvement in Iran
        Establishment of the state of Israel
        The Moors invading the Iberian peninsula?

        The problems in Syria were exacerbate by the West supporting the so called “good” rebels and deciding that Bashar al-Assad was a bad dictator. It’s about time that we in the West realised that certain cultures need the likes of Gathafi, Hussain & Assad to keep stability, regardless of how distasteful that is.

  27. JustGetOnWithBrexit
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 8:36 am | Permalink

    Just like a super-tanker, the EU takes miles to alter course or to turn around.

    Response to a major crisis eventually starts to take shape, as the crew takes its own actions, in the interest of self-preservation. Meanwhile, the Captain of the ship, as usual, lies drunk in the cabin, with the other Officers, after yet another junket.

    Much damage has been done to EU countries, by the lack of EU action on the migrant crisis…The EU is superb at legislating and controlling the lives of EU citizens, on the most minor of issues, but when it comes to a real crisis, demanding quick and effective action, they are the proverbial ‘chocolate teapot’.

    • Anonymous
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

      Worse. It wants a fungible population. Don’t like the way people vote ? Change the voter.

  28. A.Sedgwick
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 8:40 am | Permalink

    Had Scotland voted for independence in 2014 and the EU Referendum taken place in 2016 in the remaining UK with the same if not bigger Leave win – two questions?

    Would the EU have fast tracked Scotland into the EU?

    Would the Scotland/England border have caused as much furore as the Irish one?

  29. Denis Cooper
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 8:56 am | Permalink

    Off-topic, as briefly as possible:

    The Express website had a live column yesterday:

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1022403/Brexit-latest-news-update-theresa-may-EU-european-union-trump-trade-deal

    in which it was reported that Angela Merkel had publicly rejected the Chequers plan even while Theresa May was publicly clinging to it.

    However according to a leaked internal document seen by Reuters:

    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-may/may-no-deal-brexit-better-than-current-eu-offer-idUKKCN1M525R

    the EU was willing to offer the UK a free trade agreement, but with customs borders.

    But as the Irish government has committed itself to an absurd, extreme and intransigent position over the land border between Northern Ireland and the Republic that also cannot work unless the EU really is willing to treat that border as a special case.

    Which in my view should mean that it was treated like the border between Liechtenstein and Switzerland, based on the concept of “parallel marketability”:

    http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/05/17/the-business-of-england/#comment-935654

    “If the UK passes a law to control exports across the border and ensure that nothing which does not conform with EU standards will be sent over then the Irish, and the EU, should be content with that.”

    • Bob
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

      @Denis Cooper

      Just slap CE stickers on everything, just as the Chinese do.
      No one checks.

      • Nigel Seymour
        Posted September 26, 2018 at 7:40 pm | Permalink

        Good one. CE means Jack.

    • Richard
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

      As David Davis said: “the heads of both the British and Irish customs authorities have told us that a hard border is not necessary. Jean-Claude Juncker, Leo Varadkar and Theresa May have all said that they would never enforce one.
      There will be no hard border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. It’s that simple.” https://order-order.com/2018/09/20/dd-will-no-hard-border-simple/

      The idea that Ireland would shoot its economy in the foot with an unnecessary hard border is nonsensical.

      • Stred
        Posted September 27, 2018 at 7:03 am | Permalink

        Or veto a deal and have 40% tariff on cheddar and meat.

  30. hans christian ivers
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 9:15 am | Permalink

    We need a much more coordinated migration system in Europe and building fences and walls and further restrictions is not the solution to the problem, when we as European are all getting older and we need youth to look after in our old age as well

    • Ian wragg
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

      That’s the bull… argument. Unless you earn around £37k per annum a family of 4 are nett users of welfare. The majority of immigrants are on minimum wage and make no financial contribution at all.

    • Timaction
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

      Indeed. Immigrants get old as well you know! Governments could make tax incentives for our young to have more children as they did in the past. Their agenda is clear. To remove the feelings of Nation state, culture and common heritage by replacing the indigenous population. Globalist left wing legacies acting on behalf of their EU master!

    • Know-Dice
      Posted September 27, 2018 at 8:32 am | Permalink

      Hans,

      We spend some £12 Billion a year on International aid, how effectively is that spent or does it just end up in the pocket of despot dictators and their cronies?

      Yesterday, Corbyn was saying that we need to stay in the Customs Union, I see that arrangement as protectionist and damaging to trade in Third World countries. People migrate because they either want a better life for themselves and their families or their lives are threatened.

      I say the best way to minimise mass migration for economic reasons is to help the establishment of trading relationships directly with companies within these disadvantaged countries, rather than put up physical and economic barriers.

  31. Mick
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 9:26 am | Permalink

    There should be a boarder between the snowflake London and the rest of England, getting back to the muppets at the labour conference and do they take the public for idiots all they seem to be spewing out is a GE or a people’s vote “referendum “and that Mrs May should meet labours 6 tests, what a complete load of tosh they just want to be in power and will use any means to get there, labour saying they either want a GE or a people’s vote tough your not going to get nothing, and when a GE does come in 2022 labour hopefully will go the same way as the libs well we can only hope

  32. ian wragg
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 9:40 am | Permalink

    In todays papers, May is quoted as saying we will be the lowest taxed country in the G20.
    She knows full well that there is a non regression clause in the withdrawal agreement which ties our fiscal, energy and environmental policies to the EU. Can the woman not stop lying. I can’t bare to see her face anymore, she is a complete embarrassment.

    • Anonymous
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

      Like Andy I’ve taken to not listening anymore and also turning the TV off when she comes on it.

      • Timaction
        Posted September 26, 2018 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

        Agreed. She is a shameless liar. She believes if she lies about Chequers often enough people may get to believe it. Some of us out here in the real world have to make a living by making money and NOT like foolish lying politicos!

      • Fedupsoutherner
        Posted September 26, 2018 at 10:01 pm | Permalink

        Anonymous. Well I’m completely turned off when Andy’s name is mentioned!!

      • Mitchel
        Posted September 27, 2018 at 9:54 am | Permalink

        Did you notice the sea of empty seats for her UN speech-and a couple of the few there wandered off a few minutes into it.She’s not exactly a hot ticket internationally either!

    • Chris
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

      I believe she is simply saying this to offer a few crumbs before Conference. The problem is that she is not trusted, so what she says and promises are of little significance to them. You cannot betray the electorate and then expect them to believe you, support you and vote you in again.

    • piglet
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 5:01 pm | Permalink

      Ian, I feel exactly the same way. What sort of creature is she that she can lie, mislead and dissemble the way that she does? She is a stain on our democracy … and if that’s what comes of being brought up a vicar’s daughter, certainly no great advert for the clergy.

      • Jagman84
        Posted September 26, 2018 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

        I believe that she is receiving extremely poor advice. It’s not too difficult to guess where such advice is coming from.

    • Richard
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

      A quick google indicates that total UK public spending is near historic highs: https://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/past_spending

      And many/most G20 countries have lower public spending: https://ourworldindata.org/public-spending

      A smaller state sector leads to GDP growth which pays for future state spending: http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/08/09/tax-rises-do-economic-and-political-damage/#comment-953485

    • Lifelogic
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 7:41 pm | Permalink

      Indeed she and Hammond (and Brown & Osborne) have put taxes up massively. Why appoint & retain a “tax to death” chancellor if she believes in low taxes? Why piss money away on Green Crap, HS2, boated government & Hinkely C if you want lower taxes?

      I suppose being a Vicar does indeed involves a lot of lying (blatant and some white lies to keep people “happy”). This as surely they cannot belive all the endless drivel they come out with. But then pehaps Justin Welby & Corbyn do actually believe in the lefty lunacy they push.

    • Steve
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

      Ian Wragg

      However, the Withdrawal Agreement must be signed by government, which won’t happen. If they dare sign it, you can be sure to ‘predict a riot’.

  33. Dominic Johnson
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 10:03 am | Permalink

    It’s amazing how EUrope can tolerate a completely open border from Greece to Portugal, but would require tanks on the border in Ireland.

  34. Mark
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 10:26 am | Permalink

    There seems little point in simply landing boat people back in Libya to try again. In most cases, their country of origin is readily discernible from their language and physical appearance. By taking them back there, the message that attempting to get to Europe is an expensive way to defray family wealth and fraught with danger, gets told by those who experienced it to those who might consider attempting it. By giving the message that they will return to the start from square 99 in the game of snakes and ladders (and preferably that squares from 93 onwards are covered by a multi headed hydra that will also return them to square 1, so whatever they throw on the dice they will land on one of them) there is a good chance that the numbers attempting the journey will fall sharply, as Australia found in using similar tactics with their boat people.

  35. John Probert
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 10:30 am | Permalink

    The EU continue to show that they are unable to make decisions to solve our current problems

  36. Andy
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 11:51 am | Permalink

    In the midst of Tory chaos Mr Corbyn now sounds like a prime minister in waiting.

    Another irony of Brexit. It will not be the Conservatives that properly implement it. Amusing.

    • Edward2
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

      Your comment certainly is amusing.
      Corbyn a PM in waiting……hilarious.

      • Steve
        Posted September 26, 2018 at 7:47 pm | Permalink

        Edward2

        “Your comment certainly is amusing.
        Corbyn a PM in waiting……hilarious.”

        Yes he comes out with some right belters.

        Corbyn, PM ? I don’t think so. It’s the same now as it ever was with that lot, all boils down to politics of envy. Labour is finished, casualty of itself.

    • libertarian
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

      Andy

      Is being smug coz he thinks a Labour government will overturn Brexit. They won’t/can’t of course

      1) Corbyn is a lifelong leaver

      2) Their Union paymasters are lifelong leavers

      3) He can’t implement nationalisation under EU rules

      Sorry Andy , another fail for you

    • Posted September 26, 2018 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

      But, Andy, when you allow yourself to consider the UK suffering in some way, you ALWAYS find it amusing. Most unattractive attitude, and nothing at all to be proud of.

    • Bob
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

      “Corbyn now sounds like a prime minister in waiting”

      Prepare for govt Andy 🤪🤪🤪

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 10:03 pm | Permalink

      Andy, what a pathetic, attention seeking comment. Must try harder.

  37. Harry
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

    Am still thinking of M Gove’s words “the day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and can choose the path we want” the EU has it’s downside but nothing compared to ours

    • Steve
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

      Harry

      I dont trust Gove one iota, he’s loyal to no one but himself.

  38. Margaret
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 1:13 pm | Permalink

    In Mallorca at present and it is still full of holiday makers who are mainly German and migrants cannot be seen. The BBC world coverage is still showing deaths and attempts at resuscitation for those coming over in inflatable boats My real anger is with those countries who create such hostile environments that their own citizens have to flee for their lives. How can these countries expect to be powerful as they destroy lives and cities? Are they simply dim witted?

    • Jagman84
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 7:41 pm | Permalink

      A very small number fall into the category of “have to flee for their lives”. Despite the sob stories, the overwhelming majority are economic migrants, attracted by the prospect of a better life than they could ever imagine in their country of origin. Regarding the criminal elements in the migrant flow, their home countries are probably delighted to see the back of them!

  39. a-tracy
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 1:36 pm | Permalink

    Are we allowed to ask what the repercussions are of the none EU immigration coming through the EU into the UK?
    How many people came in 2017? How many men, how many women, how many dependents, what age groups?
    Where are they living? Social Housing, or private rental with rent and rates paid by the UK State? What % fund themselves?
    What % are working in full-time jobs? What % are working in part-time jobs?
    How many are kept not working in UK centres, how much does this cost per person? What do they have to contribute towards their keep? Hours working decorating, cleaning, moss control, cooking, cleaning. When I see some of these run down centres people are living in I think why aren’t the immigrants doing their own DIY repairs, cleaning, why aren’t Councils collecting unwanted furniture to rehome them for immigrant use. Why can’t they work in shortage of work areas?
    How many, what % head straight for London or Birmingham?
    If people are coming to work and work in jobs that we have shortages like farming, fruit picking and caring that we are told there are tremendous problems recruiting for.

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

      A-tracy. A well thought out post.

  40. Nigel Seymour
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 2:43 pm | Permalink

    J, I don’t have the faintest interest in EU borders. They can let in whoever they like from wherever they like. I am however interested in those migrants that are able to quickly gain EU status and then simply come into this country pre/post Brexit and gain UK citizenship. Some would say this is pure racism and some would say it’s just controlling and managing our borders and immigration. TM yesterday came out with the rubbish she has been peddling for years about <100,000.!!!! Forget it John, it will never happen in both of our lifetimes.
    p.s I was right about Monday cab meeting when some expected her to ditch chequers. I think she would rather resign or be voted out…

    • Bob
      Posted September 26, 2018 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

      @Nigel Seymour

      I think Chequers has already been agreed between Olly Robbins and Brussels but they’re pretending otherwise in order to justify more concessions from the UK.

      I would put money on it.

  41. ChrisS
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

    Why is May persisting with Chequers in the face of a refusal from the EU, implacable opposition from the ERG and the near-certainty that Labour is going to veto any deal she comes back with ?

    Surely the time has come for the Cabinet to get real and tell her a few home truths ?
    The only chance there is to get any kind of deal through parliament, and it is a remote one, is for a deal based loosely on the Canadian model.

    I can see Mrs May losing a vote on Chequers but winning a confidence vote. The very idea of having reached some form of agreement with the 27, and then being sent back by Labour to renegotiate it, is just plain daft.

  42. Steve
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

    JR

    Next time I shall vote for a party that doesn’t cower to political correctness and is unafraid to tell it like it is.

    I shall not be voting for a leftist sympathiser masquerading as a conservative.

  43. Harry
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 6:26 pm | Permalink

    Theresa may speaking at the UN..the Uk peoples vote decision to leave was clear and decisive…big lie

  44. mancunius
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 8:48 pm | Permalink

    Hungary’s predictions about how Frontex will act (or rather, fail to) seem quite realistic. First of all, the EU will pay no attention to which countries they come from, so Hungarians will find their borders being ‘policed’ by Romanians, Slovaks, Sicilians and Basques, all unable to speak Hungarian or communicate with each other. They will wear designer uniforms, clock off at 4.30pm and have no combat training and bear lethal weapons. Their activities will be restricted mainly to putting up notices sternly warning the local population that any kind of verbal abuse will result in a fine, and putting down demonstrations against their presence: the migrants strolling past them into Hungary will regard them amiably as a joke.

  45. Iain Gill
    Posted September 26, 2018 at 9:03 pm | Permalink

    Deary me the labour TV advert would be easy to demolish? why is the Conservative party not doing so?

    The reality is the reason those places are still jobless wastelands is because of the way the social housing system works, putting massive pressure on people to stay put, when if they had control of their own housing subsidy they would have individually over time migrated towards the ever evolving jobs market and away from places with less jobs. It is only the top down rationed state controlled, end citizen has no say, style of service provision that keeps places like that.

    The Conservatives need an over arching story which brings together several policies around a core theme, themes like handing power over to individual citizens and away from the state in all areas of service provision from social housing, to social care, to school allocation, to healthcare. There would be real appetite for this in the labour heartlands (and the Conservative heartlands).

    The Conservatives need to listen to the majority and recognise that real firm downward pressure on immigration is needed, and we need to value social cohesion and quality of life about never ending supplies of cheap labour. We need to make it at least as cheap to hire a local as import labour from abroad, we need to return the incentives to train and hire locals.

    We need a firm patriotic story.

    And we need basic factual narrative which demolished the marxist policies Labour are advocating, similar to the way Jordan Peterson does it, which shows that they always lead to failure and remind people how many people Mao, Stalin, etc killed.

    We need to listen to the real people and not the middle class spoilt brats who have dossed around in uni social science lectures and worse, and think they are proper little class warriors now.

    We need to push for proper equality of opportunity, and that includes stopping discrimination based on class heritage, and regional accents with as much vigour as racial and sexual discrimination are outlawed. We need proper justice and rights for the white, working class, male, hetro sexual workers, too, especially the ones in dangerous jobs or working crazy hours often far from home.

    And so much more which is obvious to anyone outside the political bubble.

    Please dont let the Stalinist version of Labour send this country into a tail spin.

    Get your act together Conservatives or Brexit will be the least of our problems.

    Please cc to the cabinet and Boris!

  46. Lindsay McDougall
    Posted September 27, 2018 at 12:42 am | Permalink

    On a related topic, what reason(s) is Mrs May giving for saying that a Canada plus deal would be worse than No Deal? She is surely not assuming that a pipsqueak little nation like the Irish Republic can dictate to us. If she is, she isn’t fit to be within barge pole length of public office.

  47. Ron Olden
    Posted September 27, 2018 at 6:34 am | Permalink

    FOREIGN INVESTMENT

    I keep wondering why it is that Month after Month since immediately after the Referendum, companies from all over the World, keep spending huge sums of money buying assets and making huge investments in the UK, whilst we are all simultaneously told that Brexit is going to be a disaster.

    Before the Sky TV bidding war started less than two years ago the Shares in it, were worth 787p each, having crashed from 2100p in 2000 when the prospects for On Line TV Services started to loom large.

    And many were saying that they were overvalued even then.

    Now ComCast are paying 1728p for them (a total of £26 Billion). That’s 120% more than the market thought they were worth less than two years ago. And that’s despite the added risk of Corbyn threatening to Nationalise everything.

    This has been repeated over and over again with foreign investments in everything from Banks, Transport, Food Manufacturing, Pharmaceuticals, and even Steel, which was about to shut down completely before the Referendum.

    KeolisAmey, a French/Spanish Joint Venture has successfully bid for the Wales Train Franchise with an investment of £5 Billion (that’s the equivalent of £110 Billion if it was a UK wide investment), on the condition that it even spends £800 Million building the trains in Wales, Deep Cleans all the Stations, and puts on more services!!

    Perhaps the road to prosperity doesn’t depend on importing unskilled cheap labour and giving immigrants Tax Credits, Housing Benefits and Child Benefit to send home after all.

    Funny. Who’d have thought?

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, He graduated from Magdalen College Oxford, has a DPhil and is a fellow of All Souls College. A businessman by background, he has been a director of NM Rothschild merchant bank and chairman of a quoted industrial PLC.

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