72% of Conservative members oppose the draft Withdrawal Agreement

I was surprised as many as 23% of Conservative members support the draft Withdrawal Agreement. Maybe they heard the Prime Minister say on tv that we are taking back control of our laws, our money and our borders and ending freedom of movement. We all agree with that. That is exactly what the EU Withdrawal Act achieves. Unfortunately it is not what this Agreement says.
The PM must understand that the draft Withdrawal Agreement does the opposite. It means we pay the EU a fortune, stay in everything for at least 21 months and will have to stay in the Customs Union thereafter unless the EU is suddenly very nice to us. As more members read the document or read about it and understand it is not Brexit, I suspect they too will be disappointed.

(Conservative Home survey)


  1. JustGetOnWithBrexit
    November 17, 2018

    Mr Redwood.

    We must have an objective assessment of a No Deal, from the Government now!

    They must cut out the Project Fear sound-bytes!

    What are we likely to face with a No Deal? How do we intend to MITIGATE problems?

    May needs to tell us truthfully (for once!)…the time for playing games on behalf of the EU is over!

    No Deal…a Clean Brexit approaches…please demand an honest assessment of a No Deal scenario.

    1. L Jones
      November 17, 2018

      It should be repeatedly called a ”No EU Deal” – then perhaps the more gullible might get the message – and perhaps read that so-called ‘agreement’ for themselves.

      It’s all there.

      1. Hope
        November 18, 2018

        Martin Howe makes clear the 179 pages relating to the backstop gives the EU the right to keep the UK in forever! May surrendered the UK departure for nothing. This does not give any certainty whatsoever for businesss for years.

    2. alan juston
      November 17, 2018


      Do you really think Mrs May is going to tell you the truth, and admit her (Oily Robbins) proposal is worse than WTO terms.
      She has had ample opportunity to tell us the truth for over 2 years now but she has failed, she lost ground in the last open goal election with her stupid manifesto, and she will certainly lose properly the next one.

      Enough is enough.

      1. Lifelogic
        November 17, 2018

        Indeed, we have had more than sufficient lies, endless tax increases, socialist PC lunacy and a totally incompetent election and duff manifesto plus other gross incompetences from this appalling socialist PC dope.

        Why indeed would even 23% of members supports it? You are surely right is can only be because they have trusted the drivel that May and the BBC have fed them and not actually read or understood the document. The agreement is absolutely appalling, how can anyone possibly think otherwise?

        Excellent performance on Any Questions, this despite the endless daft interruptions from the chair and the really most unpleasant and unelected Lord Adonis.

    3. Hope
      November 17, 2018

      The UK is unable to leave May’s agreement to remain in the customs union and single market. The UK can unilaterally leave under article 50 but cannot leave from her withdrawal agreement!

      If this is the best she can achieve, as she states, there is no hope for a trade deal in the following years after our departure. Therefore no punishment extension required or sought, it is a very bade deal and by her account the UK must leave without a withdrawal agreement. If the EU wishes to discuss trade it can still do so in March 2019 as is proposed without any pre-conditions attached!

      One thing her proposed agreement demonstrates is that she repeatedly lies, she is underhand, untrustworthy, works in isolation and is deaf.

      The public survey shows that the public does not want her deal and they do not want her!

      Where is Bernard Jenkins, he seems awfully quiet?

      1. Mark B
        November 18, 2018

        . . . there is no hope for a trade deal in the following years after our departure

        I have no problem with that. We can still get trade deals with others and, once done, put up tariffs on produce the EU sells to us. But because others have trade deals the tariffs will not apply. So in the end the EU will have a stark choice. Either they negotiate a trade deal or, lose market share. Simple.

    4. acorn
      November 17, 2018

      How do you MITIGATE capital flight out of a country and the subsequent sell-off, of its currency? The BoE will jack up interest rates big time, that is if it plays a conventional neo-liberal gambit. It will be the same as happened when the UK crashed out of the ERM in 1992.

      All the signals are apparent at the moment. The Pound moves on every speech from a politician. Hopefully the Treasury / BoE, will let the pound find its own value. The price of imports will rise significantly and help reduce our large trade deficit and encourage greater domestic production of staples. Our export prices can be jacked up a bit, so that they can still remain competitive in foreign currencies.

      1. libertarian
        November 17, 2018


        You must be making an absolute killing on the markets

      2. JustGetOnWithBrexit
        November 17, 2018

        More sound bytes and Project Fear. Thin gruel.

        We need reliable information, analysis and preparation… not speculation.

        But thanks anyway, for you input.

        1. acorn
          November 18, 2018

          Have a read of CEPS “The Impact of Brexit on the EU’s International Agreements” What we need is answers to the 1,139 (and counting) agreements the EU has with third countries.

          We need to find the individual civil servants, working on each of those items line by line. The guys who can say “I’ve sorted that one and our planes are still in the EU US Open Skies agreement (we had to give away a few more landing slots at Heathrow)

          And, find the guy who is hopefully getting more than the 103 Truck Permits for driving UK wagons and trailers in the EU (Haulage Permits and Trailer Registration Act 2018).

          Or; there maybe nobody working on this minutiae which the ERG (40/51/65) dismiss as irrelevant.

      3. Mark B
        November 18, 2018

        And of course none of what you suggest ever happened when we were part of the ERM ?

      4. NickC
        November 18, 2018

        Acorn, The only capital flight happening at the moment in Europe is from states such as Spain and Italy via the ECB’s Target2 system.

      5. Fuddy Duddy
        November 18, 2018

        Acorn – “It will be the same as happened when the UK crashed out of the ERM in 1992.” Wrong.

        When the ERM finished the interest rates went down. Before when in the ERM I was getting 15% interest on my £s in a HK bank. Luckily when I heard that all was well I changed my £s to dollars knowing that the crash was certain.

      6. libertarian
        November 19, 2018


        “Since the euro was formed in 1999, the German and French economies have grown by 32pc, the Italian economy by 9pc – and the poor old UK, self-excluded from the enormous benefits of the euro, has grown by 44pc. Funny, that.”

    5. NickC
      November 18, 2018

      JustgetonwithBrexit, Please, there is no such thing as a literal “no deal”. There is such a thing as “no trade deal”. That is what I have advocated for years.

      In order to leave the EU sensibly, we must resume representing ourselves directly with international institutions such as the WTO, ICAO, etc; and that involves negotiation with them. There would also be limited negotiation with the EU for an orderly exit from their programs, solely to tie up loose ends. Mostly that would just be a date for the last “paying and obeying”.

      There would be no negotiation with the EU about Northern Ireland. N.I. is part of the UK, and none of the EU’s business. The EU’s concerns about their internal market is their problem. They will have to sort it out themselves. The UK will conform to agreements that pre-date the EU, and with the Good Friday agreement. Again no need to even involve the EU in our compliance with non-EU agreements.

  2. miami.mode
    November 17, 2018

    Mrs May gets away with it because nobody seems to challenge her with a detailed argument, particularly with regard to the laws where it is intimated that the ECJ will still have some say after the implementation period.

    1. Peter
      November 17, 2018

      She rarely speaks at length in an interview. She offers mantras and catch phrases. She tells lies. Allies defend her in the media.

      She is not going to expand on her views at this late stage. She will hunker down behind the bunker. Maybe she will look for sympathy too – the lonely leader doing her best when the world at large fails to understand the issue.

    2. Hope
      November 17, 2018

      I understand the DUP agreement is with the Tory party not May. They made this point clear several times last week. I understood their comment to mean if May stays in post with her remain Agreement the DUP will not support the govt, if May is got shot of you have their support.

      A lot of Tory supporters upset that Soubry appears to be campaigning for Corbyn to join her campaign to get a second referendum, what is your party and her association doing about Her? I suppose the failure Rudd in govts on the same ticket shows May’s support despite saying otherwise. No on can believe a word May says so it is feasible that it is govt policy as she has now said the UK might not leave. Presumably, nomtheough cabinet and will,be sprung on them. Raab confirmed again how she included something in her agreement without his knowledge in his resignation speech. May really is slimy, underhand and untrustworthy.

      1. Steve
        November 17, 2018


        “May really is slimy, underhand and untrustworthy.”


  3. Mark B
    November 17, 2018

    Good afternoon

    I hate to say it but, what the members think is unimportant. It is what the MP’s in the HoC vote for is. If they vote for this utter betrayal then they should resign on mass because none of you are worth a single vote from us. You would have finally absolved yourselves from the positions you enjoy.

    I thought the way the Greeks were treated was bad, but this is far worse.

    1. Rien Huizer
      November 17, 2018

      Mark B,

      Thde Greeks chanted on entry and should never have been allowed into the EUR. Then they borrowed lots of cheap money under their sovereign rating at the same time accommodating ongoing capital flight: wealthy Greeks would never consider to keep the bulk of their money there, or pay taxes. Thje EU has treated Greece a lot better than the Greek rick seem to be doing, or London hedge fund managers.

      Now to the vote on this agreement: the Tory membership is a tiny fraction of the Tory electorate. The Party’s challenge is not to keep the membership happy (for that maybe a merger with UKIP would be OK) but maximize its chances at the next election, which may be very soon. A no deal will not produce a good election result and once the reality has hit, a rather angry electorate. In my humble opinion of course.

      This deal is the best (economically speaking) the UK cabn get because it secures a transition period and provides a bottom under where the UK may be pushed once the future relationship gets negotiated.

      Anyway, sack Mrs May if you can, good luck, she will eat her opponents for breakfast.

      1. libertarian
        November 17, 2018


        So now you know why the EU is such a basket case. It breaks its own rules and that is why it can’t be trusted


        1. rose
          November 18, 2018

          I have heard Germans lamenting that so much was done to put and keep Greece in the EU, and so little to keep the UK.

      2. Mark B
        November 18, 2018

        There was only one country that met ALL the criteria for membership of the EURO – Germany. The UK, the Netherlands and France came close, but only close. But the Eurofanatics wanted their EURO so they allowed all current members of the EURO to join. Hardly a mistake or, as you suggest of Greece, a result of cheating.

        The membership does matter. If the members decide to deselect an MP, even an MP as PM, you have to listen. They are much more powerful than you think.

        Reply Germany’s debt exceeded 60% so she did not qualify, which is why they conceded on non compliance.

      3. NickC
        November 18, 2018

        Rien Huizer, “The Greeks … should never have been allowed into the EU”. Oh, so the “Greeks” were imposed on the poor helpless EU? So not the EU’s fault at all? Well, well, here’s me thinking it was EU hubris and the EU lust for power and hegemony.

        When something goes right it is because of the splendid EU. Obviously. When something goes wrong it is the fault of those ………. Greeks, or the perfidious Brits, or the “populists”, but never, ever, your perfect ideology.

      4. Chris Maughan
        November 18, 2018

        Rein Huizer

        From your far off land you obviously understand little or nothing about us.

        To quote you ” for that maybe a merger with UKIP would be OK ”

        For other posters in the UK, that’s all I need to point out.

  4. L Jones
    November 17, 2018

    Mr Raab’s letter of resignation says it all, especially in his second point.

    Of course Mrs May understands what the Draft Withdrawal means. If she doesn’t then she really is NOT fit for purpose and is just a puppet.

    The word ”disappointed” doesn’t come anywhere near what most of us feel. We are being treated as gullible and ill-informed fools – those in the Westminster bubble don’t seem to realise that it’s a big world out here and these days they can’t so easily hide their intentions.

    1. Martin
      November 17, 2018

      Mrs May is not fit for purpose and she is just a puppet. How could anyone possibly not see that?

    2. Chris Maughan
      November 18, 2018

      Indeed they can’t hide from the electorate anymore.

      The Internet gives us all access to numerous speeches they have made (written and video), media appearances and a vast library of facts we can check to uncover any lies or propaganda.
      Unfortunately for Mrs May, she has fallen foul of this many, many times. There’s a huge internet crowd out there shining a spot-light on her and the public trust in her is diving rapidly.

      1. libertarian
        November 18, 2018

        Chris M


        One of the reasons that the EU and the May/Hammond government are trying to control the internet. They never will of course

        The beauty of independent technology is that these people will have to learn to be far more ring fenced in the things that they interfere with . The internet will reduce the amount of over government we have

    November 17, 2018

    Theresa May is a liar. She’s hoping that her audience will simply assume that what she is saying is the truth based on the premise that she’s trustworthy and honest. She isn’t trustworthy and honest. She’s a Europhile and she will say anything in public to ensure that the UK is trapped inside the EU construct for the foreseeable future

    I don’t trust her. I don’t believe her. I know she’s lying. She’s mendacious. She’s sly and she’s cunning

    Her entire political career’s been hallmarked by capitulation to achieve either positive media headlines or reduce the probability of damaging media headlines

    She’s unprincipled to the core. A pure political animal whose instinct is to virtue signal for public effect and target our freedoms for party political aims

    Blair was a liar but he’s nothing compared to this grotesque PM.

    May and Monet operating singing from the same hymn sheet –

    ‘Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation. ‘

    No more words. Depose her even if it means fracturing the Tory party

  6. Richard1
    November 17, 2018

    I guess we will all have to plough through it ourselves to take a view. The summary I’ve seen seems to say any future trade deal post the transition period will also keep us in the customs union and – through commitments to regulatory alignment – the single market. There is clearly no point leaving the EU at all for this, if that’s correct. I don’t really mind a bad and expensive 21 month transition period, but I mind a lot if we don’t have the freedom to implement proper free trade thereafter.

    Tim Montgomerie is surely correct – the time to have got rid of May was after Chequers when it became quite clear what she would come up with. He may unfortunately also be right that there’s no time now for a better agreement and Conservative MPs, and some Labour, will eventually be cowed into voting for it.

    Separately, I enjoyed your performance on Any Questions on which as on all BBC panels you as the sole leaver were outnumbered 4-1 by remain (maybe 3.5-1.5 if you count the ineffectual minister called Jake), and a howling audience of remainers. The only point which you didn’t get a chance to nail (& good job on all Adonis’s rubbish about planes not flying and a shortage of medicines) was Mr Meyer of Siemens’s claim that WTO Brexit means supply chains won’t work. I think that one needs more explicit tackling.

    1. forthurst
      November 17, 2018

      As you might expect, UKIP has produced a rather more masterly summary of the 585 pages than is available to Tories who are spoon-fed sophism:


      1. NickC
        November 18, 2018

        Forthurst, Good link, thank you.

  7. Tony Henry
    November 17, 2018

    The full horror is set out here. No-one who loves their country could support Treason May or her position after reading this. It is a total and patheitic capitulation. I expect her to sign it in a railway carriage in a French forest.


    1. Stred
      November 17, 2018

      This is much worse than remaining. As requested by Robbins. Stand by for a second rigged vote.
      Utter treachery.

    2. hans christian ivers
      November 17, 2018

      Tony henry,

      Talking about Treason and using the work just shows you have missed the point of democratic compromise and debate, completely, grow up

      1. NickC
        November 18, 2018

        Hans, Your “democratic compromise” is the same as compromising democracy. We were asked by Parliament to make a democratic choice between two deals: Leave, or Remain. We did.

        If it’s not independence it isn’t Leave. Theresa May is selling us out to a foreign power, and that is the definition of treason. Your thralldom to the the EU has no relevance either to the principle or the definition.

      2. Chris Maughan
        November 18, 2018

        hans christian ivers
        No personal insults on here please.
        Ad Hominem isn’t required.

    3. rose
      November 17, 2018

      And he doesn’t mention the fish.

    4. M Davis
      November 17, 2018

      £££! = money to be paid to view!

    5. rose
      November 17, 2018

      This piece has now got para by para rebuttals in it, from no 10 Downing St. Sinister. The barrage of propaganda today and yesterday has been alarming. I wonder whether they will start trying to control this website too.

      If only they would learn that we are not the enemy.

  8. iain
    November 17, 2018

    It proves that the EU negotiating team were much stronger than ours and if necessary will continue to be so. The only way forward is to accelerate planning for ” no deal” as that is now the likely outcome. It should hold no fears for us and it is necessary for the Government get this message across to the general public asap. With Mrs May in charge that is unlikely to happen.

    1. DUNCAN
      November 17, 2018

      iain -The UK didn’t have a negotiating team fighting the UK’s corner. Both the UK and the EU team have conspired to keep the UK in the EU. Therefore May and her grubby allies have never been on the side of the UK fighting to ensure a clean, full break from the EU. May’s been fighting to keep us IN THE EU not fighting to take us OUT OF THE EU

      The wool’s been placed fully and firmly over the eyes of the naive British electorate

      It’s gonna take another Churchill to wake up and crush another hopeless Chamberlain (May)

      1. NickC
        November 18, 2018

        Duncan, Indeed you are right that at least some UK civil servants have conspired successfully with the EU to keep us under EU subjugation. The “Kit-Kat” revelations prove that.

    2. Freeborn John
      November 17, 2018

      I don’t believe it was a matter of negotiating strength. Or even Mrs May’s incompetence. The leaked reports in the German press after her first meeting with the EU Commission following the triggering of Article 50 reported that she was seeking a cosmetic Brexit modelled on her earlier (as Home Secretary) official opt-out from EU Lisbon Treaty measures on Judicial and Home Affairs. She enacted the opt-out but then opted back in to each of the important measures such as the EU Arrest Warrent. And she is doing the same today officially leaving the EU and its customs union and single market but opt-in instead to measures that ave identical effect. This includes much more than the single market regulation and EU-UK customs union. She wants security arrangements which will recreat the Lisbon Treaty Judicial & Home Affairs measures again. The Common Fisheries policy is likely being recreated. And we will bound by the withdrawal agreeembt to EU Tax, environmental and social policy. She is creating EU2.0 with no exit clause and doing so as a deliberate act of her own free will. That is why she has to go.

    3. Billy Elliot
      November 17, 2018

      You are right Iain. EU negotiating team was stronger – and so is EU.
      From their perspective the Financial Settlement of 39bn is their money.
      That just have to be paid. We can of course say no way – then things really get difficult. All countries are equal – some are just more equal and EU definitely is more equal compared to us.
      Besides if we don’t take care of our obligations why would any one give us a good deal?
      And please save me from fairy tails of global trade deals.
      Negotiating them takes a looong time and they will be worse than our present deals.
      Besides if we don’t take care of our obligations why would any one give us a good deal? Pinocchios don’t deserve good deals.
      US already offered some sort of deal what it comes to “open skies” – worse than what we have now.
      Mexico, Chile and South Korea have already communicated that “roll over deals” are dead in the water.

      Some African countries said they were keen to make deal with us – I haven’t seen any further headlines. Will that happen? Who knows.

      But hey it is about sovereignty n’est pas?
      Couple of economically crippled generations don’t really count

      1. Chris Maughan
        November 18, 2018

        As I’m sure you already know (but forget as it doesn’t support your argument) there is no legal obligation to pay anything like £39billion. Government analysis shows this amount is only due if we remain in a customs union with the EU for the whole transition period.
        Having said that, I agree that the EU will be less willing to agree a trade deal with the UK in future if we don’t give them this “bunge”.

    4. Rien Huizer
      November 17, 2018

      The EU has been holding all the cards, from the start. This result is generous and signals a spirit of cooperation, despite the UK’s history of disloyalty to Union principles and constant exceptionalism.

      1. JustGetOnWithBrexit
        November 17, 2018

        You must use the same opticians as Mrs May.

        Those rose tinted spectacles are truly amazing!

        By the way…nice try at a wind up.

      2. Chris Maughan
        November 18, 2018

        Honestly Rien, your wasting your time.
        Your words “generous” and “spirit of co-operation” can only be measured against an emotional yardstick and are inutile expressions without use in a negotiation. Your Anglophobia is univocal.
        I understand that you will be angry at those who wish to undermine the European project which you hold so dear, but that’s not what we are doing. We simply don’t want to be part of it.

    5. Denis Cooper
      November 17, 2018

      In effect our negotiating team was part of the EU’s negotiating team.

  9. Original Richard
    November 17, 2018

    Either Mrs. May is completely deluded or she is lying when there is such a discrepancy between what she is telling the public and what is contained in her Withdrawal Agreement.

    Even the EU are saying they will “retain all the controls” for as long as they want.

    1. Adam
      November 17, 2018

      Mrs May in on the Ridge on Sunday, followed by the cliff edge on Monday & risks falling from high office into obscurity soon after.

    2. Rien Huizer
      November 17, 2018

      Of course they will. What did you expect?

  10. Beecee
    November 17, 2018

    I am confused!

    Why please does Mrs May continue to state that this draft agreement gives us back control of our borders, laws and money if many say it so clearly does not?

    We are used to some politicians being economical with the truth and sometimes ‘fingers crossed’ bare-faced porkies, but Mrs May is adamant that she is right when she tells the Nation that it delivers on everything she promised and that the majority voted for.

    She is either right, wrong (in which case openly fibbing) or deluded.

    If the former she deserves apologies, if either or both of the latter then she is unfit for Office.

    1. rose
      November 17, 2018

      We have ample experience of her duplicity to know who is right this time.

    2. Alan Jutson
      November 17, 2018


      The simple answer is to read it (the agreement) yourself !

      Then you can see it with your own eyes.

    3. NickC
      November 18, 2018

      BeeCee, Read the Chequers executive summary. That is the most accessible account of the position Theresa May has put the UK in. Then read her foreword in the same Chequers plan. You will see the contradictions.

      Mrs May says we will be leaving the CU, the SM, the CFP, blah, blah. She is right – she intends the UK to leave the existing EU multi-lateral treaties. But we are to sign up to new bi-lateral treaties and agreements to almost the same effect as our current membership the next day (bear in mind she intends first a “transition”, then a trade deal).

      That’s how she can stand in front of us – she has the capability to absolutely separate out the leaving part from the re-joining part in her mind. It is actually hard for normal people to lie successfully – but one way is to tell the truth, and not tell all the truth. It’s a trick. That’s what she is doing.

  11. Walkabout
    November 17, 2018

    The world is made up of a lot more than conservative members- fortunately

    1. hans christian ivers
      November 17, 2018

      so are most the members of Parliament

    2. Original Richard
      November 17, 2018

      Apart from the fact that the Conservative Party are in government and hence in charge of Brexit negotiations a majority of the electorate voted to leave the EU and not be bound to it in perpetuity – at least EU membership contained article 50!

      1. Bob
        November 18, 2018

        Article 50 is/was a trap. Gerard Batten always maintained that and stated publicly that the best solution for a clean Brexit would be to repeal the 1972 European Communities Act.

        I tried to post links on this blog many times to Mr Batten’s pdf warning paper “The Road to Freedom” but my attempts never passed moderation due to blog rules regarding links.

        I will separately post a YouTube link to a short speech by Mr Batten in European Parliament, in Strasbourg on 4th July 2016.

  12. Bill
    November 17, 2018

    So have you put your letter in?

    1. hans christian ivers
      November 17, 2018


      You can always play party politics but that does not make the country, better off does it?

      1. NickC
        November 18, 2018

        Hans, Independent nations tend to do better than provinces of an empire.

    2. Rien Huizer
      November 17, 2018

      One would expect not, for excellent reasons.

  13. hans christian ivers
    November 17, 2018


    Even if 72% of the conservatives want to play party politics does tat mean it is the best solution for the country? and are you so sure?

    1. libertarian
      November 17, 2018


      You’re the one that keeps saying there are more issues that just Brexit

      May has to go because she is useless and a very very poor PM

      Failed her own immigration targets ( yet has made a mess of Tier 2 visas)

      Dementia tax

      Universal credit

      Yes but no but increases in NI for Self employed

      stamp duty ( exacerbating housing crisis )

      Nearly losing an election from a 20 point lead

      Vast increases in Business rates ( whilst moaning that high street is dying)

      Implementing retrospective tax grabs

      Being detached, unapproachable , and stubbornly wrong

      I thought Gordon Brown was our worst PM ever.

      May… hold my beer

      She has to go


      1. Lifelogic
        November 18, 2018

        Quite some competition in this area. Even a Thatcher made serious totally avoidable mistakes.

        Prices and incomes policy Heath who took us in, Tax borrow and waste Wilson (who did at least keep us out of Vietnam), ERM fiasco Major, pointless warmonger on a lie Blair, save the world lefty dope, no return to boom and bust Brown, abandon ship Cameron and the appalling lefty Appeaser May. All were/are absolutely appalling.

  14. Andy
    November 17, 2018

    Any survey of Conservative members is by definition going to be a small and unrepresentative study. This is because there are not many Tory members and they are mostly old.

    Why don’t you try polling younger people who actually have to live with the consequences of your Brexit? We reject Mrs May’s ‘deal’ – but we reject Brexit full stop. Your policy of deliberately making us poorer and stealing our rights will be overturned.

    1. Anonymous
      November 17, 2018

      Andy. Down wiv da kids.

      The oldest swinger in town.

      So… importing ever more competition for jobs and housing has made my kids richer ?

      That’s why they can’t afford a house despite being PhDs when I could with four CSEs at their age ???

      1. Andy
        November 17, 2018

        In 1945, average life expectency for a newborn boy was 63. For a girl it was 68.

        Life expectancy has risen dramatically – and those people who were expected to die have not. Many are still here living 10, 20, 30 years longer.

        Child mortality has massively decreased too. And the due to huge peace dividend a united Europe has brought the number of young people being sent off to fight and die in wars has plummeted.

        All these extra people need to go somewhere – and they need to go into houses which your generation has failed to build.

        In any case the majority of migrants come from outside the EU. But, as always, it is easier to blame foreigners than granny.

        1. Edward2
          November 18, 2018

          That life expectancy figure is distorted by the effects of war.

          Who blames those who actually come here?

          But we still need some controls.
          Having several hundred thousands coming here every year is not sustainable.

        2. libertarian
          November 18, 2018



          Its due entirely to the inventions, science and technology developed by the baby boomers you despise

          There have been 35 wars, revolutions, uprisings and coups in Europe since 1948… What peace dividend ?

      2. margaret howard
        November 17, 2018


        “That’s why they can’t afford a house despite being PhDs when I could with four CSEs at their age ???”

        The obscene rise in house prices has nothing to do with the EU membership but everything with pure greed by the people encouraged by greedy banks.

        People were glad to see their houses become investment tools, not places to live in. ‘Our house is now worth so and so much’ became a party conversation favourite. All encouraged by greedy banks.

        There was always a price to pay and our young people are paying it
        They can’t even hope now for us to leave them our valuable properties as many will now be used up to pay for our old age.

        What a mess.

        1. Edward2
          November 18, 2018

          You need to study supply and demand margaret.

    2. libertarian
      November 17, 2018



      You gov

      Just 19% of UK support May’s plan

      Only 26% support a second referedun

      At least you are consistently wrong about everything


  15. Messenger
    November 17, 2018

    Why are there so few MPs prepared to stand up and say to the people- in parliamentary language, of course- that May is stating one thing and doing the opposite?. Those of us who read blogs such as this one are only too well aware that the so-called deal is completely unacceptable , binding us to all the things we were told we would be rid of.

    This Brexit does not mean Brexit and I am incredibly angry

    1. hans christian ivers
      November 17, 2018

      We cannot afford what you are proposing

    2. NickC
      November 18, 2018

      Messenger, Jacob Rees-Mogg has stated in Parliament that what Theresa May says is not what she does. You cannot get more pointed without actually saying she lies. And, indeed, we cannot afford the slavery to the EU Mrs May is proposing.

      1. Chris
        November 18, 2018

        Yes, Rees-Mogg was crystal clear. How MPs can go on supporting May’s Plan her when they know that what she has claimed is in the draft agreement is actually contradicted by the words actually in the document, reveals, in my view, their total lack of honesty and integrity, and also displays their contempt for the voter.

  16. ian
    November 17, 2018

    Good program on RT crosstalk yesterday call Nationalism, about Mr Marcon remarks last Sunday, to mark the 100 years of the end of world war 1. Worth watching.

  17. Caterpillar
    November 17, 2018

    Such percentages no longer matter. The Govt and other elite have ignored the democratic referendum with its clear result. The country has already shifted to a combination of elite and mob rule. Whether this is the elite and the marching remain mob, or the co2 policies and the climate protest mob, rule is no longer democratic and reasoned. Unless the PM and the Remain HoC see the light then this severe principal agent problem will be the last. Policies and, law and order, need to reflect the people (and the nation) the UK has thrown democracy, reason and decent behaviour out of the window . The elite and mob will rule for some years but there will be some people who will look to respond in anyway they can, with no democratic route and current examples of the mob what will happen is scarily obvious. I wonder whether the PM and other elite are knowingly ending democracy, ending the UK and ending a largely peaceful country.

    1. Chris Maughan
      November 18, 2018

      I’m seeing this very message on so many forums across the Internet.
      It’s all very worrying, but also completely understandable.
      We have to realise that some have been waiting for 40+ years to be heard and their hatred of centralisation/globalisation to be addressed. Huge swathes of our population have lost out. Deny a huge slice of the electorate a voice and their aspirations and it will eventually blow up in your face. They finally think they have been listened to. God help us if they are ignored again.

  18. Tabulazero
    November 17, 2018

    28% of the Conservative party is not afflicted by an early onset of dementia, then…

    Good to know.

    1. Edward2
      November 17, 2018

      A very poor comment.
      Is this awful illness a joking matter?

      1. Tabulazero
        November 18, 2018

        Given Mr Redwood lamentations regarding the austerity policy followed by the EU in light of what his very own Conservative party has put the UK through, I think it is a very pressing matter for the Conservative party.

        Did you know that the Conservative Party derives more money from it ex-members’ wills than from contributions from the livings ?

        A true party of the dead.

        1. Edward2
          November 18, 2018

          Wriggle as much as you want Tabulazero but I think your orginal comment was in very poor taste.

        2. Chris Maughan
          November 18, 2018

          You come across as a highly unlikeable angry person.
          I’m surprised some of your comments make it past the moderator.

      2. libertarian
        November 18, 2018


        I put it in stronger terms but my comment was moderated out

        Anyone using mental health issues as a debating point loses the argument

        I would expect a large donation from Tabulazero to my mental health charity

    2. a-tracy
      November 18, 2018

      Is it ok to insult people and their mental abilities because they don’t agree with you Tabulazero? I thought you left wing types were all politically correct.

  19. Lindsay McDougall
    November 17, 2018

    We’re not out of the woods yet. It is just possible that the EU will take fright at No Deal (as well they might) and make last minute concessions. If the EU were agree to make the backstops time limited or allow the UK to exit them without the EU’s permission, Mrs May might just get the slightly modified Withdrawal Agreement through both houses of this rotten parliament.

    Brexiteers must be ready to fight a General Election under the banner Brexiteers or Leave means Leave and not under their current Party labels. For that we need a Brexiteers Manifesto – a programme for government action of between two and five years duration – that is endorsed by all of the politicians representing the 52% who voted Leave. That is the Conservative Brexiteers, Kate Hoey & Co, the DUP, UKIP and Nigel Farage. Nigel is a superb campaigner who knows from the inside just how rotten and fanatical are the EU’s institutions. Get him on board.

    More and more I am convinced that most Remoaners are knaves, not fools. They have seen the European Commission pursue the creation of a Federal European SuperState with determination ever since the founding fathers met in the late 1940s. They have seen the creation of the Euro, more and more QMV, a European Constitution masquerading as the Lisbon Treaty and the publication of the Five President’s Report. Yet they still want to bind us into the EU.

    1. margaret howard
      November 17, 2018


      “Yet they still want to bind us into the EU.”

      Yet people like you raise no objections to us following the US into illegal wars like Iraq and all that followed so that we can become their obedient poodles?

      All in a mistaken belief of a ‘special relationship’ which doesn’t exist in American eyes?

      1. a-tracy
        November 18, 2018

        Margaret how can you make such an accusation against LindsayMcDougall of raising no objections to the Iraq war you don’t know? You surely remember it was Tony Blair and his Labour Party spin machine including a very convincing Mr Campbell who lied to the British public.

      2. Edward2
        November 18, 2018

        a) it wasn’t illegal
        b) we had a choice to go to war or to not go to war.
        c) we have a choice to have the USA as a close ally

      3. libertarian
        November 18, 2018

        margaret howard

        How do you now Lindsay didn’t raise objections? More than 1 million marched against the EU fan boy Blair . Oh and the EU did what to maintain the peace ?

        I guess you’ve never been to USA the Margaret

        Over the last 40 years I’ve lived and worked in 3 different places in the US, I do business with the US now and I’ve just returned from a US trip

        You are totally wrong there is a very strong bond between the US and the UK. Just because you’re poster boy Obama didn’t like us isn’t much of an argument

        Odd that you are quite happy to be the obedient poodle of some Belgians though . You are quite bizarre

      4. NickC
        November 18, 2018

        Margaret Howard, If the EU tells us to do something we have to pay and obey. If the USA tells us to do something we can choose to say no. Independence is the best outcome for us.

    2. Tabulazero
      November 18, 2018

      The EU would very much like to see the back of the UK in an orderly fashion and does not want to get sucked into trying to make sense what Brexit exactly means and what does the UK exactly wants.

      If Mr Redwood and the ERG really thought their invisible border could eventually work, they would not have any problem to sign the backstop.

      The fact that they do not means that even themselves doubt it will be the case.

      Reply It will work but we don’t trust the EU to accept the obvious and let us leave

  20. VotedOut
    November 17, 2018

    If the PM had announced on Wednesday night that the draft Withdrawal Agreement couldn’t be accepted by any PM and that she was going for no deal on that basis I think she would have been seen by history much kinder than she will be now.

    It gives a new meaning to a Carthaginian peace. The fact that it was proposed shows how weak the EU thinks the UK is.

    No deal, no problem

  21. Dioclese
    November 17, 2018

    Quislings and traitors always come to a sticky end. May needs to think on that while she’s defying the electorate and selling her country down the river…

  22. Edwardm
    November 17, 2018

    It just shows some people place hope before reality. Perhaps they haven’t seen any forensic analysis of the WA. And as a warning, at 500 pages it is too long for a straight-forward arrangement.

    It would be good if 72% or more of Conservative MPs were to become committed to Brexit.

  23. Mike of Wokingham
    November 17, 2018

    It looks like Brexit has failed. As your Guardian article () says, we would be far better off remaining in the EU than leaving under these terms.

  24. Kevin
    November 17, 2018

    Mr redwood
    The tide is coming in
    Put your letter in or be washed away

  25. Tom Rogers
    November 17, 2018

    The draft deal is treason. Anybody from this country who signs it or agrees to it or supports it is a traitor.

  26. Please sir
    November 17, 2018

    It is a withdrawal agreement to wind up our affairs..it is not an agreement going forward beyond december 2020. It is an agreement business and other things like euratom etc needs and gives us time to work out the future

    1. Denis Cooper
      November 17, 2018

      Which future would have to be more or less a continuation of the same, or it would be blocked by the Irish government.

      Given that this Irish government has hit upon such a brilliantly successful strategy to protect the economic interests of the Republic, with the co-operation of Theresa May and Olly Robbins, I cannot believe that it or any future Irish government will ever say:

      “Actually we’ve changed our minds, it would be fine with us if it was decided that Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK would no longer be under the rules of the EU Customs Union and the EU Single Market.”

      Of course that will never happen, as has been clear for nearly a year now:


      “Brexit: Remain in customs union and single market to solve border issue, Ireland’s European commissioner tells May”

      “Theresa May is facing fresh pressure to change course over plans for the Northern Irish border after Brexit as Ireland’s EU commissioner stepped up threats to veto trade talks.”

      “Mr Hogan, the EU’s agriculture commissioner, said Ireland would “play tough to the end” over the border issue, and said it was a “very simple fact” that “if the UK or Northern Ireland remained in the EU customs union, or better still the single market, there would be no border issue”.”

      That was from November 26th 2017.

  27. GilesB
    November 17, 2018

    Be careful here.

    The indefinite ending to the backstop (expressed as 20XX) is a trap. It’s totally and utterly unacceptable. No Prime Minister could possibly accept vassalage. So why is it in the draft agreement? It’s there simply so that May can claim a triumph when she comes back with a replacement of 20XX with 2048, or 2028, 0r 2023, or whatever.

    Yes make sure that it goes, but don’t be deceived: getting rid of the indefinite ending is no triumph. You should just laugh at it!

  28. Steve
    November 17, 2018

    It’s a cop-out to oppose PM’s works, but cower from actually removing the dreadful woman.

    Surely if two thirds consider May’s shenanigans unacceptable, then why has there allegedly not been 48 letters sent?

    Broadly speaking you’d expect the number of letters to represent somewhere near two thirds of conservative MP’s ? given the seriousness of the situation.

    Perhaps someone needs to investigate exactly how many letters Graham Brady actually has……just to make sure.

    However I suppose for the conservatives it’s all pointless now, they’re finished for good come the next general election, and they know it which is why they won’t kick May out and deliver on the referendum. They’re all just clinging on by their fingernails to the salary, pension and perks of office.

    Rats on a sinking ship, springs to mind.

  29. Helen Smith
    November 17, 2018

    Are the other 28% quite mad?

    Apart from everything else Dublin might like the deal but I’m not so sure about Loyalist terrorists. I never thought adding a few customs checks to goods at a warehouse miles from the border would cause a problem but giving Dublin rule over NI trade and customs regs and splitting it from the UK is surely a recipe for disaster.

    I truly believe May is mad now and needs removing before this great country ends up as a colony of a hostile organisation.

    1. a-tracy
      November 18, 2018

      In what way is Mrs May ‘Mad’, mental health isn’t something to be flung around in general insults. Mrs May I believe is trying to deceive us but I don’t think she is mad.

  30. rose
    November 17, 2018

    Yes, it is puzzling why so many members should think this capitulation of an undefeated nation is acceptable, but why on earth are MPs like Rory Stewart and Oliver Letwin supporting it? Presumably they have actually read it.

    1. Lifelogic
      November 17, 2018

      Who knows? Anyone sensible would surely refuse to take such a turd polishing presentation job. Rory is usually fairly sound too.

  31. JustGetOnWithBrexit
    November 17, 2018

    Article 8 of the Lisbon Treaty!!!

    1. The Union shall develop a special relationship with neighbouring countries, aiming to establish an area of prosperity and good neighbourliness, founded on the values of the Union and characterised by close and peaceful relations based on cooperation.

    2. For the purposes of paragraph 1, the Union may conclude specific agreements with the countries concerned. These agreements may contain reciprocal rights and obligations as well as the possibility of undertaking activities jointly. Their implementation shall be the subject of periodic consultation.
    What a joke!

  32. Anonymous
    November 17, 2018

    You’ve lost the momentum, John.

    Face it. It’s over.

    1. Caterpillar
      November 17, 2018


      I agree with this. Following the referendum and Cameron’s (disgraceful) resignation Give backstabbed Johnson leaving Remainers in charge. After a needless , majority losing election Remainers were left in charge. When the first resignations happened not all leavers acted as one, some stayed in cabinet others took promotions. Now we see the same, some brexiteers staying in cabinet. Gove’s behaviour threw the first battle, after that a complete lack of coordination has left the decent brexiteers out manouevered. The country and democracy are lost.

  33. oldtimer
    November 17, 2018

    Earlier in the week Rory Stewart said that a second referendum was not possible because it would undermine the democratic process and risk ” civil war” – his words. What I did not understand is why he thought that signing up to this draft agreement would not risk the same consequence.

    1. Lifelogic
      November 17, 2018

      Indeed, me neither.

    2. Steve
      November 17, 2018


      “What I did not understand is why he thought that signing up to this draft agreement would not risk the same consequence”

      I share the sentiment.

  34. Chewy
    November 17, 2018

    Seen this?
    If true looks like they’re trying to force a second referendum.
    (Apologies if you’ve got a duplicate as message seemed to vanish from my screen)

  35. ian
    November 17, 2018

    The Spectator writes about the 40 hidden horrors of the Brexit deal.

  36. Peter Lavington
    November 17, 2018

    Mr Redwood – as a man of principal, if I were you I would resign from the Conservative party and force a by election. I’m certain you would win and it may encourage other true Conservatives to abandon their party which no londer represents Conservative voters.

  37. VotedOut
    November 17, 2018

    Larry the Downing Street mouser, has handed in a letter of no confidence…

  38. hardlymatters
    November 17, 2018

    What if some of the EU 27 countries object to some point in the withdrawal treaty as set out and don’t agree and won’t sign? where are we then? it could be the end of all arguments from our side- we won’t even need Boris or DD or Raab

  39. Original Richard
    November 17, 2018

    It is now perfectly clear, if it wasn’t already, that the only way the UK can leave the EU with its union and sovereignty intact and without being subject to the EU’s unbelievably penal, asymmetric ECJ adjudicated clauses is to leave with a “no deal” on WTO terms for trade.

    In preparation Mrs. May and her EU collaborators have spent the last 2 years falsely describing the “no deal” as causing a complete meltdown with no flights, food or medicines available and all ports grid locked to ensure that “any deal” is seen as preferable to “no deal” and to bully the UK into capitulation.

    Even if Mrs. May and Parliament sign up to this terrible deal and against the referendum result it will be so unfair and unpopular that it will cause long-term instability in the UK.

  40. Peter D Gardner
    November 18, 2018

    Dr Redwood, you have to accept that the Withdrawal Agreement is what it is – an agreement to hold close to the EU while waiting for the new EU treaties to take effect by 2025 (a highly significant EU milestone date noted in the withdrawal agreement as ‘four years after the end of the transition period’) – an accession agreement, because that is what Mrs May earnestly desires. It is not because she is weak and feeble, demented, stupid, daft or outmanoeuvred by conniving civil servants.
    Mrs May will not, as Michael Gove seems to imagine, allow any deviation from this course. Neither will the EU allow UK any slight ruffle in the velvety smooth flatness of the level playing field – specified for bowls rather than for rugby.
    Mrs May is batting for the wrong side, Dr Redwood. You have to face the reality. She may earnestly believe that technocratic supra-national government by good honest well intentioned people like her is better for UK than messy sovereign parliamentary democracy that may hiccup and let people like Corbyn into No 10. But we have not had that debate: post democracy supra-national government versus sovereign national parliamentary democratic government.
    Whatever her beliefs, her actions amount to betrayal of the an independent United Kingdom and she is irredeemably attached to this Withdrawal Agreement.
    She must go. I understand the risks, that incredibly she might win a leadership election. So another way must be found. Were she persuaded to resign, not standing for re-election could it be made a condition that she does not stand? She could go quietly with good grace having done her best and allow a new hand on the helm. Only the latter would be enough to persuade the EU to reset the negotiations – tweaking will not suffice, at least 500 pages of the agreement need to be cut out completely and I have read it all.
    She achieved the bulk of withdrawal agreement in 7 mths. A transition to WTO terms, given that the ground has already been covered, could be agreed in 3-4 mths. But only if she goes.

  41. Sakara Gold
    November 18, 2018

    Parliament surely will not approve this one-sided agreement that has been negotiated by the PM and her civil servants, not the Brexit Secretary Dominic Raab who resigned.

    Having had time to study itit would seem that Theresa May has capitulated to bullying from the EU and has given them most of what they want, without securing anything in return. This agreement is not Brexit and the PM is being duplicitious in saying that it is.

    We should just leave in March next year. We will muddle through. I can live without french camembert or a German BMW car.

  42. David Price
    November 18, 2018

    They didn’t ask all members, only 1403. Though if you took the Yougov poll (3154 samples) as more representative there is still a majority of 42% brexit supporters against the draft agreement versus 22% for it. The difference there in the Remain supporters is even greater at 47% against and 20% for.

    The EU clearly don’t want a trade agreement with the UK, now or after the UK leaves so we should prepare for a WTO basis and focus on discussions with those that do want to trade.


  43. Nigel Seymour
    November 18, 2018

    If there are only 47 letters sent in then can Brady send one to himself?

    Reply Yes

Comments are closed.