The Pizza 5

So five Cabinet Ministers who voted for Brexit are staying in the government. They tell us they do not like the draft Withdrawal Agreement, and will try to get the PM to seek amendments to it.

There are three problems with this approach. The first is there is no sign the PM wants to renegotiate. Secondly, based on the PM’s determination to advance this draft, the EU has made clear it doesn’t want to renegotiate. The third is the Agreement is so bad just changing some words on the Irish backstop does not fix it. The document is seriously rigged against us and has to be scrapped. It leaves us powerless in many ways. Far from leaving the EU it keeps us chained to their rules, payments and Customs Union, with no unilateral way out. The only way the EU would be persuaded to renegotiate is if the UK government said we were leaving without signing the Withdrawal Agreement.

Ministers have to support this unacceptable Agreement all the time they stay in. They will be watched particularly closely by the media and the PM now we know they are trying to alter the policy. They would be better off resigning together. Then we would see the simple truth. You cannot want to leave the EU on 29 March 2019 and join or stay in this government. No Leave voter could possibly accept this deal as giving us what we voted for. It appears a lot of Remain voters also think it is a bad deal.

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220 Comments

  1. Leslie Singleton
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 5:17 am | Permalink

    It is unbelievable that now, as proposed, we won’t even have an Article 50–absolutely and completely incredible–the Americans, especially, look on with incredulity. We all understand that Trade is important but this is ridiculous and very very unfunny. All the woman does is increasingly demonstrate her appalling judgement.

    • Lifelogic.
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 7:30 am | Permalink

      Indeed and her appalling judgement and not just on this appalling “Brexit” agenda. She is also a ‘highest taxes for 40 years’, regulate to death, climate alarmist, HS2 pusher (now hugely delayed and over budged needless to say), a prices and incomes controls dope who thinks that ever bigger government knows best. She wrong on almost everything and a tedious, robotic electoral liability as well.

      I see that Rory Stewart seems now to have agreed to be the chief public turd polisher for this appalling deal. Does he not realise just how stupid this makes him sound. It soils him far more than it convinces anyone of the merits of this totally indefensible deal.

      • Hope
        Posted November 20, 2018 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

        JR, Gauke on TV is morning saying it will be May’s deal or Brexit will be suspended or deferred!

        Is it not clear how May would achieve this. Is it possible to defer or suspend article 50 or any other means?

    • Stephen Priest
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:10 am | Permalink

      Maybe the Brexit Conservatives could all defect the the DUP.

      They are the only party whose leadership believes in Brexit and believes in Britain.

      • Lifelogic.
        Posted November 20, 2018 at 10:52 am | Permalink

        The Tory party needs to be reclaimed from the pro EU wet, tax to death, lying socialist, interventionist, and anti democratic dopes like Appeaser May and Hammond. The party has the historical brand that is vital in a first past the post voting system.

        Despite this brand being trashed by May, Cameron, Major, & Heath it still has value and needs to be captured back from these ‘no nation’, socialist, tax to death dopes.

        It need to be restored as a party of low taxation, small government, a real (UK based) democracy, law and order, person freedom and light regulation.

        • L Jones
          Posted November 20, 2018 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

          Start a new party, LL – and I think there are many of us who would join!

          This is all deeply disappointing and dismaying. It’s enough to make one into a conspiracy theorist. Who is pulling the strings? What do these puppets have to gain?

          And, above all, to whom can we turn now that we have been so sorely betrayed? How shall we know who they are, where they are,what they are? This must be one of the most critical and heartbreaking moments of our history.

          Someone – our host, perhaps? – should point us in the right direction.

        • Stephen Priest
          Posted November 20, 2018 at 7:40 pm | Permalink

          How many people are thinking

          “I hate Corbyn, but can he really be worse than May”?

          This is what Tory MPs should be told.

      • Peter Wood
        Posted November 20, 2018 at 11:58 am | Permalink

        Elected Tory members, not worthy of the name, what a dishonorable bunch! We have to rely on the DUP to hold the UK together and give some backbone to the Conservative and Unionist Party. Tory members should hang their heads and resign from this shameful government. But instead they strut around with pretence, for their own self interests.

        • Chris
          Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:08 pm | Permalink

          It has been suggested in the Press today that Duncan Smith, Owen Paterson and Sir Bernard Jenkin were pulled back from the brink of sending their letters in by May with promise of future rewards in the H of L? I have no idea if it is true, but it is very odd how these so called committed Brexiteers u turned at the last minute after meeting with May. Whatever happened, it looks awful to the voters, and one wonders if these individuals realise, or even care? Again, it seems that self interest takes priority over the future of our country. What a revelation of the qualities and calibre of the political class has this whole Brexit debacle been.

          Reply Nonsense story. Why would they want to leave the Commons

        • Richard
          Posted November 20, 2018 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

          The DUP are now negotiating seriously. Conservative MPs need to wake up and smell the coffee! https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/20/dont-complacent-mrs-may-dup-could-bring-whole-house-cards-crashing/

      • Hope
        Posted November 20, 2018 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

        What is disturbing is the narrative that the govt is creeping in to general circulation that people voted leave are rebels, saboteurs and last junior minsister Stewart used the term Brexit extremists! People who voted leave have every right to feel insulted by this govt. It is the same tactic that was use to prevent discussion around immigration, racist, little England etc.

        JR, Stewart and your govt need to be challenged on their disgraceful behaviour towards 17.4 million people.

    • KMILLS
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:42 am | Permalink

      Mrs May and those around her have excellent judgement in relation to keeping us running alongside the EU until such a point that many are so tired of such a situation that the majority view is that we might just as well be in again,but this time with all the bells and whistles firmly attached so that there is no way out at all.
      The Irish /eu are simply not going to release us……..why should they because it will all work so well for them particularly so because the elite here are working for them as well
      I innocently expected far better of our government but my fears have had every chance to develop over the last several months.

      • L Jones
        Posted November 20, 2018 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

        ”ELITE”???? What? They are NOT ”elite”. They are duplicitous, mendacious, self-serving liars.
        They are NOT ”elite”!
        Otherwise I agree. How disappointed are we?

        • Stephen Priest
          Posted November 21, 2018 at 11:17 am | Permalink

          The term is derogatory term. When people say “elite” the mean people who consider that themselves “elite” and far superior to ordinary mortals. Prime examples: Blair, Branson, Obama, Bono.

          A lot of leave support politicians tend to be more maverick and don’t tend drift along with the general consensus: Gisela Stuart ( German born ex labour MP) Kate Hoey, Frank Field, Boris, Priti Patel

          Michael Gove is maverick or elite depending what side he got out of the bed that morning.

    • vera
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

      Mrs May is finished. How can anyone now trust her? She needs to go before she does more damage to the party and the country. If she had any sense of responsibility she would go now and let someone who knows what they are doing take over – that can’t be difficult, almost any Brexiteer would be preferable to her.

      • L Jones
        Posted November 20, 2018 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

        Ah, but she has no ”sense of responsibility”, has she?
        Self-service, perhaps. Even fear, perhaps. No honour or courage, definitely.

        This is dire.

  2. oldtimer
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 5:27 am | Permalink

    Given all that has happened since Chequers, May is not going to change her mind and renegotiate anything of substance. The Pizza Five will be fobbed off with meaningless words.

    The moment of truth for all MPs will come in December when the HoC has to vote on the deal May has reached. This will be especially so for Conservative MPs. For them it will also be a question whether they sign up to this suicide note.

    • Hope
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:37 am | Permalink

      On a positive note Barnier was clearly concerned and worried yesterday to try to assure leavers we would take back control and was using May’s strap lines! He knows she is in a precarious position and their collusion of an agreement is not going to get through parliament. Leavers “insurance policy” the DUP have principles values and conviction u like May and her treacherous rag bag remain sycophants.

      Scotland, Spain and Argentina have clear legitimate claims for the UK to give part of our nation to the EU like N.Ireland. Why not? EU will tax and legislate for N.Ireland without its citizens having a say, complete vassal state.

      JR, also noted is that May has not defined what ‘goods’ are in the sell out. So the Eau could control a lot more than stated which will be decided by the ECJ. Does this include inchoate items like ideas, processes, technology, fish etc. She also give the EU the right to access data here but for the UK to have access to EU data. She also allows the EU to have control over intellectual property.

    • eeyore
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:49 am | Permalink

      Old timer – how true. Chess players will be familiar with zugswang – the state when any move at all makes your position worse. The Conservatives have been in zugswang since the election. They still are but some seem not to know it.

      That does not make Mrs May the winner. She sins against Burke’s Law: “The best policy for any government is simplicity of heart.” As a vicar’s daughter she will not need reminding what the wages of sin are.

      And the pizza feasters? Well, thank heavens for the wild men and women of Ulster, who eat Prime Ministers raw.

    • Horatio
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:53 am | Permalink

      Indeed, the Pizza 5 are not true be-leavers. It feels like many Tories are far too secure in their safe seats with no fear of recall or replacement by their constituency associations.

      If this BRINO deal is done the damage to the country can’t be undone. Furthermore, no matter who the next leader is, voters will leave the Tories in droves and vote UKIP, the result Corbyn.

      Many people have suggested that the establishment plan was to draw out the transition period to the next GE so that becomes a third referendum on the issue. It looks like we’re going thst way. Now the Express and The Mail have new, remainer editors there is only the Telegraph, RT and The Sun backing Brexit and refuting project fear.. I’m not hopeful.

      • Frances Truscott
        Posted November 20, 2018 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

        The only thing to be done is to stop buying remainer media. Unfortunately we are obliged to pay for the biased broadcasting company.
        We are all turning them off every time they spout remainer tripe.

      • Richard
        Posted November 20, 2018 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

        Readers likely to migrate to eg The Sun / The Telegraph / online.
        https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/family/beginning-look-lot-like-brexit-conspiracy/ “According to one source, Downing Street officials have discussed an even darker strategy to twist arms. “Number 10’s plan is to encourage a crash in financial markets after losing a first vote [in Parliament] in the hope this stampedes MPs into voting for it second-time,” says a source who has discussed the issue with Mrs May’s advisers.

        It should beggar belief that our own Prime Minister’s aides are discussing tanking the economy so they can get her wretched deal through.”

    • Timaction
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

      I believe we are getting close to the point where the Government no longer have any mandate to continue in office or make laws over us. If May continues on her mission to keep us in the EU by stealth and ignore the peoples instruction to leave, then we must take back control from the politicos.

    • Chris
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

      Andrea Leadsom has reportedly said that she doesn’t even like pizza and has laughed the whole idea off, stating that the meeting with May was very friendly.

  3. Stred
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 5:32 am | Permalink

    If May forces her capitulation through, Dr Fox will be redundant anyway. We will be unable to negotiate with countries outside the EU.

    If she is not deposed, we will soon have a second referendum. Two thirds of the Con party see this as a way to break their promises and manifesto, which fooled Ukip voters. The MPs in safe seats will be paid the same in opposition. Those that lose their seats will expect to be rewarded with jobs in quangos or big business.
    .

    • A.Sedgwick
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:43 am | Permalink

      His appointment was a non job from the start.

      The F.O. should be charge along with a vastly changed foreign aid programme.

  4. Cheshire Girl
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 5:52 am | Permalink

    Its one thing to threaten to resign, and quite another to actually do it. I’m not really surprised, that, when the chips were down, some people changed their minds. I’m sure it will be noted who they are. Pressure is being applied, but they should resist it.

  5. Helena
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 6:04 am | Permalink

    O dear! Splits and factions in the ERG! Tell me sir, could you extremists organise a drinking opportunity in a brewery?

    • Richard1
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 7:21 am | Permalink

      I wouldn’t laugh too soon. The EU negotiators have played a blinder against May and her hapless civil servants I agree, but they might have over-played their hand. WTO Brexit is bad news for the EU, especially Ireland – & if there’s a new eurozone + banking crisis, all of them.

      • Chris
        Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:11 pm | Permalink

        You imply that May and her civil servants are on the opposite side from the EU. They are not. They are on the opposite side to the Brexiters.

    • Anonymous
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:21 am | Permalink

      Then much of the UK and much of Europe must be extremist.

      Well done EU !

    • L Jones
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:51 am | Permalink

      Remainer Facebook insults again, Helena? Why bother to post here if you don’t have anything worthwhile to add to our host’s views and comments?

      Perhaps, instead, you could tell us how YOU would like to see the situation evolving, and, if you think this agreement is a good thing, why is it, exactly?

      (By the way, the ERG stuff was yesterday. Do keep up.)

    • libertarian
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:03 am | Permalink

      Helena

      Whilst you are quite right the Tories couldn’t organise a proverbial , i wouldn’t be too smug if I were you. If this agreement gets passed the Remainers will hate it even more than the leavers. You see it STILL sends all your 50p per hour nannys, child minders, car washers and gardeners home, the only reason you want to be in the EU according to the trolls on here is free movement Doh !

    • libertarian
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

      Interesting

      Dutch government has proposed a “Great No Deal bill” which gives the government powers to take emergency measures related to social security, recognition of UK drivers licenses & professional qualifications. Bill also includes provisions to guarantee continued functioning of energy links with UK.

      And a measure to ensure UK remains part of an agreement on chips & semi-conductors.

      Plus, Dutch citizens residing in the UK will still be covered by Dutch healthcare regulations.

  6. Renton
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 6:10 am | Permalink

    So the Pizza 5 have put career ahead of principle! Real life intrudes on your Brexit ideology, eh Mr Redwood

    • Anonymous
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:28 am | Permalink

      Realpolitik yes.

    • libertarian
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:04 am | Permalink

      Renton

      What an odd post. Have a rethink and try to post something logical

      • Miss MBJ
        Posted November 20, 2018 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

        This is a sound post with a feeling many share.

        • libertarian
          Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

          Miss MBJ

          If you understand what “Real life intrudes on your Brexit ideology, eh Mr Redwood” means You better explain because its an illogical , meaningless statement

          We all agree that the pizza 5 have put career ahead of principle

  7. Peter
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 6:10 am | Permalink

    Not reaching 48 letters and not following up on a threat to resign if the PM does not change course are both damaging.

    However, more than ever, the key event is rejecting the Withdrawal Bill when it is put before Parliament.

    • Hope
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:44 am | Permalink

      There is an important point here for public perception. If the Tory MPs do not oust May the general public assume, wrongly, that all of them support her and her plan giving credence to her lies.

      Some will no care as the EU project is more important than being in govt. some view Corbyn in govts as better than leaving, Some are in safe seats and will continue whatever happens. Do not forget May went to Corbyn last week to get his support for her plan and have and are trying to woo Labour MPs against her own party. So her loyalty to the party and her own MPs is not there! Why they give her loyalty is a dullards game.

    • Graham Wood
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:04 am | Permalink

      Withdrawal Bill? Would someone explain why we need 585 pages of turgid EU
      legalese either to leave or to plan a future relationship with the EU?
      Who asked for such nonsense, and why is it deemed necessary?

      • Tad Davison
        Posted November 20, 2018 at 11:30 am | Permalink

        The 585 page document is engineered to confound and confuse. It is part of May’s plan to keep us in the EU at any cost where her predecessor failed. Where lying to get one’s way is seen as underhanded by most, with May’s kind, it is a legitimate tactic.

        We really do need to get wise to this con artist and fight her at her own game, not take the gentlemanly approach. The time for being courteous has long passed.

        She is not a true Tory and never will be. She is far more suited to the Liberal Democrats and merely uses the Conservative party as a vehicle to pursue her neo-liberal doctrine. We owe her nothing, and neither does any member of the so-called the Pizza 5.

        As someone who used to campaign on Law and Order, I stopped saying anything nice about that woman when she was Home Secretary. Unfortunately, I am prohibited from saying what a disgusting untrustworthy individual I think she is, in the terms I would prefer to use.

        She’s a Mantis, just sitting there waiting to pick the leavers off one by one. She can only do that if those at Westminster are gutless enough to let her. For Christ sake have the guts to shout her treachery from the rooftops so the whole nation hears the message!

        Tad Davison

        Cambridge

  8. Richard1
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 6:27 am | Permalink

    It probably isn’t very helpful to point it out now but Brexit Conservative MPs should clearly have got rid of May after Chequers when it was clear which direction she was going. It was by then clear that she would use her proud bloody difficult woman image, not to get a good deal for the UK, but obstinately to pursue BRINO.

    I assume the Brino deal will go through on the back of Conservatives cowed by project fear 2.0, tactical Labour /SNP abstentions and some Labour votes. Then May presumably will be ditched next spring / summer and the whole political debate will move onto ‘how do we get out of this terrible deal?’, with the EU laughingly telling us there’s no way out its a binding international treaty.

    Perhaps the best that can be hoped is we are allowed to change it the EFTA model. Otherwise I think the only way clean Brexit has a chance is if you team up with Lord Adonis to demand another referendum but with clean Brexit as one of the (three) options.

    Oh dear. It would have been better to have been better coordinated amongst Conservative Brexiteers, ministers included, 6 months ago!

  9. Mark B
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 6:38 am | Permalink

    Good morning

    I see my post from yesterday is still in moderation. To those who wish to know what the government might try to do next it may be worth a read later 😉

    If you are not at the dinning table, then your on the menu. This can be both applied to the cabinet and the Withdrawal Agreement. The EU want us destroyed as a nation. The Globalists in government and the Civil Service agree.

    The PM gave a speech recently, in which, to great applause, she claimed to have delivered BREXIT. Funny thing is, the much admired speech was delivered to members of the BREXIT hating CBI. Now there’s a thought 😉

    I am hearing on the rumour mill that should the PM fail to get her surrender document through there will be a run on the pound. This the EU can engineer as they hold quite a lot of Sterling. It is that which has allowed them to have the upper hand. As I have said before, the EU, not the rEU27, are immune to the argument over trade and who sells more to who. No matter what, their survival is more important than any one country

    • Al
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:58 am | Permalink

      **This the EU can engineer as they hold quite a lot of Sterling.**

      Wasn’t it a similar threat (from the US, not EU) that did for Eden? He at least resigned.

    • forthurst
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

      I don’t believe it. Remember that at the time of Eden, Bretton Woods applied, which was wrecked by de Gaulle demanding gold money in exchange for paper money printed by the private secret Fed. As the lessons of Bretton Woods had not been learned by the moronic Europhiles, we were dragged once again into a system of fixed exchange rates with the ERM; however, in a system of floating exchange rates, only a weak economy can be destroyed by a thieving bankster or a thieving bankster controlled empire. Hence, the Germans are said to unfairly profit from their membership of the Euro and we ourselves have increased our competitiveness recently by a lower pound, nor can the EU change international demand for the pound by the combined weight of far greater economic might than the EU can muster.

    • Peter
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

      “I am hearing on the rumour mill that should the PM fail to get her surrender document through there will be a run on the pound. This the EU can engineer as they hold quite a lot of Sterling. It is that which has allowed them to have the upper hand. As I have said before, the EU, not the rEU27, are immune to the argument over trade and who sells more to who. No matter what, their survival is more important than any one country”

      Correct. However, further details about this get deleted on here. Readers will have to do their own research.

  10. Andy
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 6:57 am | Permalink

    I’m a remain voter – and I can confirm it is a very bad deal.

    But, Mr Redwood, here’s the thing. It is what YOU voted for. It is Brexit.

    No, it is not the fantasy Leave which was written on a bus.

    It is the reality Leave. The one you were all always going to get.

    So there you have it. This is what Brexit actually means.

    And soon we will learn exactly what it costs too.

    Of course, we already know that Brexiteers – people who struggle to count to 48 – will not believe the figures.

    • matthu
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 7:47 am | Permalink

      It is not what Leavers voted for: it is what a Remainer has cobbled together.
      And this is not what Brexit actually means, it is what Remainers would like it to mean.

      People like you.

      • Andy
        Posted November 20, 2018 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

        It doesn’t mean what I would like it to mean. I want to remain. This deal does not do that.

        It really is not the fault of anyone who voted Remain that you lot did not understand the basics.

    • Roy Grainger
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 7:50 am | Permalink

      You voted for a European Army Andy ? Why ? Did you ask your children about that ?

      • TRP
        Posted November 20, 2018 at 11:28 am | Permalink

        What a ridiculous threat.
        If most of you guys and girls were not repeating the same blah blah and had a bit more reading outside your favorite sites, you might have realised what the Britannia Unchained Five are after, who is supporting them, that JR is not exactly on the same wavelength as those, etc etc…
        But better to write a few meaningless comments on these pages every day, that keeps one busy.
        Mama mia, what a waste of time and energy.

      • margaret howard
        Posted November 21, 2018 at 12:21 am | Permalink

        Roy

        “You voted for a European army?”

        If it stops us from following the US into illegal wars and invasions a la Iraq and others, then it can only be a good thing.

    • Lifelogic.
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 7:54 am | Permalink

      It is not Brexit in any real sense whatsoever it is even worse than remain as you could not escape. It is vassal state lunacy from Appeaser May and Hammond. How can they be so totally dishonest and moronic? They clearly do want to bury the Tory party once again, just as the appalling dope John Major did.

    • Bryan Harris
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 7:55 am | Permalink

      ~
      ~

      That’s a very misleading assessment Andy – BREXIT never included an option to become an EU vassal state

    • BCL
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 7:58 am | Permalink

      “Brexiteers” is a word that covers a multitude of opinion and one can no more class all brexiteers as those “who struggle to count to 48” than one can all remainers as those who cannot count to 52.
      Lies were told on both sides and it is pointless to refer to the £350M for the NHS on the bus as it is to the leap in unemployment or the emergency budget.
      I really don’t think this kind of language helps at all.
      I also don’t agree that what Mrs May is offering is anything like Brexit

      • Dennis
        Posted November 21, 2018 at 3:53 pm | Permalink

        “… the £350M for the NHS on the bus ..” A suggestion cannot be a lie.

        Read the bus poster again and try to understand its simple English.

    • Old Albion
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:00 am | Permalink

      Actually Andy, we voted to ‘leave’ the EU. This document keeps us in. That’s why it’s such a bad deal.

    • Lifelogic.
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:02 am | Permalink

      It is not what anyone voted for. It is what you get if you have a dishonest, remainer, high taxing, socialist electoral liability called T May doing the negotiation behind the backs of her more sound ministers. She has to be buried before she buries the Tories. Buries them for many terms and gives us the even more appalling Corbyn/McDonnall/SNP

    • Richard1
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:18 am | Permalink

      What is going to be interesting is if it is WTO Brexit, the EU having overplayed it’s hand, and there turns out to be no cliff edge,or the cliff was 6 inches high. Your posts, if you make any, will be a joy to read after that.

      • Know-Dice
        Posted November 20, 2018 at 11:45 am | Permalink

        Agreed, and this cobbled together “agreement” certainly DOES create a huge obstacle to climb over for many years.

        I thought that the problem with businesses was uncertainty, but that’s what the CBI is voting for?

        Have a read of TF50 (2018) 56 – What garbage…

        “Shared values” , “Dialogue and exchanges”, “deep regulatory and customs cooperation”, “level playing field”, blah blah blah…

        https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/outline_of_the_political_declaration.pdf

      • Andy
        Posted November 20, 2018 at 3:14 pm | Permalink

        As will yours when your children lose their jobs and your grandkids refuse to have anything to do with you.

        • Richard1
          Posted November 20, 2018 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

          Being almost as youthful as you I don’t have any grandchildren as yet. But I will be happy if they grow up in a country where they can elect the people who make the laws under which they live and can remove them in elections. I would also prefer that they aren’t locked into perma-social democracy without a vote.

          I wonder whether you will be like those now shy EU enthusiasts who poured disdain on those who opposed the ERM and the euro and the Maastricht treaty but who cannot now be got to admit their erstwhile support for these disasterous policies?

        • libertarian
          Posted November 22, 2018 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

          Andy

          Is an expert on losing jobs….. he sacked all of his staff in a temper tantrum when the Brexit vote was announced

      • libertarian
        Posted November 20, 2018 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

        Richard1

        Andy Newmania, Margaret H and Helena and the rest will disappear without trace once the good news overwhelms their scare myths

        • Richard1
          Posted November 20, 2018 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

          Yes I suspect so. There used to be a virulent leftist who posted here called unanime5 or something – might be one of these under a new name. Hasn’t been seen since the Conservative victory in 2015 I think.

    • Edward2
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:26 am | Permalink

      You keep saying…this is what you voted for.
      It is the opposite of what we voted for.
      We voted to leave the EU.
      This is staying in.

    • Anonymous
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:26 am | Permalink

      We are in the midst of a coup and not for the first time in EU history the winners of a democratic vote are called rebels.

    • Al
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:31 am | Permalink

      **It is the reality Leave. The one you were all always going to get.**

      And now we get to continue with life under the EU, with their well thought out directives like VATMOSS, and media restrictions, along with restricted access to overseas sites ranging from History.com to the Washington Post, to this morning’s anouncement:

      “an overbroad EU Copyright Directive could restrict Europeans’ equal access to the open Internet—and to Reddit. But time is running out. To drive home this point, we are blocking Reddit in the EU today from 09:00 – 17:00 CET.”

      On the day Theresa May announces how she’s tying us to the EU, the UK is blocked from one of the largest web communities because of that. Can we please get some sense in government? Please?

    • formula57
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:53 am | Permalink

      No Andy, it looks more like what you voted for, a complete surrender and vassalage.

      Its form might be Brexit, but the substance is continued membership shorn of influence.

    • libertarian
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:06 am | Permalink

      Andy

      Oddly though we can tell the difference between 17.4 million and 16.1 million and you can’t

      • Charles v
        Posted November 20, 2018 at 10:31 am | Permalink

        To have a lasting brexit you always had to convince some of the 16.1 to live with it. You are failing on this miserably. The gross incompetence and arrogance on this point is completely staggering.

        • libertarian
          Posted November 22, 2018 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

          Charles v

          You can’t convince people who wish to remain ignorant, who naively believe everything they are told in the media and never check the facts about anything .

          The problem is we KEEP asking remainers what it is they want from being members of the EU….. They NEVER answer

          By the way does the same piece of arrogant nonsense apply to general elections too. i.e. When Corbyn wins he will be convincing us all to become Marxists ? OK mate if you say so

    • Original Richard
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:15 am | Permalink

      Andy,

      It’s a “deal” not negotiated by a leaver but concocted between a remain supporting PM, the Civil Service, the EU funded CBI and the EU.

      It is designed to make it far worse than either “no deal” or remaining in the EU with the intention of running a second referendum, or even possibly, the remain supporting Parliament cancelling Brexit altogether “in the national interest” even though in constituency terms leave won 64:36.

    • Jagman84
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:46 am | Permalink

      It is not Brexit. It is what EU lickspittles like you have concocted. It’s akin to the opposition leader running your election campaign and then wondering why you have lost so heavily.

    • WingsOverTheWorld
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 10:10 am | Permalink

      Andy, when polled, most Leavers responded that sovereignty was their highest priority, over and above money and control of immigration. The reason why sovereignty is most important is because the other two derive from it. May’s Withdrawl Agreement plainly does not give us proper sovereignty, so it is disingenuous to state that this is the real Brexit. Indeed, it is far worse than that – worse even than staying in – since it cedes our own ability to even leave the treaty without the other party’s permission but also means we would have to accept their rules without a say. And please don’t be so naïve to suggest that this would only happen in the event of a deal not being thrashed out before December 2022; the EU would have no incentive, or ability, to resolve a deal before then.

    • libertarian
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:41 pm | Permalink

      Andy

      This is why you should never believe CEO’s of huge corporations

      Jurgen Maier CEO of Siemens UK was on Any Questions with JR. He argued forcibly that Brexit would damage his company and he would have to leave

      4 days later

      Confirmed: Siemens to build £200m train factory in Goole after signing £1.5bn contract with TfL – 700 jobs are expected to be created at the new site

      Happy to come and give you some anti gullibility training mate

  11. Martin
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 7:03 am | Permalink

    Instead of bothering with Pizza eaters would campaigning for a third Heathrow Runway be better?

    The whole SE England runway business started as Mr Heath was taking us into the Common Market. Now leaving the EU and runways still not sorted out! A splendid example of kicking the can down the road.

  12. javelin
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 7:13 am | Permalink

    Definition Backstop: “ a fence or screen that is placed behind the catcher to prevent the ball from rolling away. : something that is kept so that it can be used if it is needed.”

    The word ”backstop” gives the EU say over whether the UK can leave the custom union, which is against the British people’s legally enforceable human right to self determination.

    The term backstop is actually used to mean, if a Brexiteer gets into power and tries to take the UK out of the EU then there is a “backstop” to stop them doing so.

    In otherwords May is breaking the law by actively putting a illegal impediment in place to stop Brexit from happening.

    • javelin
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 10:23 am | Permalink

      Further thoughts of the backstop clause.

      From the perspective of the EU the right to self determination under international law gives every country a right to leave the EU. In otherwords Article 50.

      Any of the countries, including the UK, that votes for this clause is undermining their right to self determination. They are basically saying we agree that a sovereign parliament can give away said right.

      On the road to ever closer integration this is a huge legal step towards countries not being able to leave the EU.

  13. Nigl
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 7:15 am | Permalink

    The pizza five approach was just a pathetic sop to their consciences trying to convince themselves and their voters that they weren’t just voting fodder.

    The reality we always knew would be different and jelly spines sell us out again.

    • Timaction
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

      Indeed. There is no logic for them to stay any longer as May has proven to be a liar and a person who is prepared to sell out her Country whilst repeatedly claiming falsehhoods.

  14. Fedupsoutherner
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 7:19 am | Permalink

    John, I have to say I have even lost respect for you. Even with all that has gone on and the dreadful way Brexit and the economy has been handled by this PM you still insist you support her just like many others in your party. Unbelievable!

    • NickC
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:16 pm | Permalink

      Fedupsoutherner, Why does it have to be said that remaining in the single market, remaining in the single customs territory, remaining subject to the CJEU, and remaining subject to the EU’s Foreign, Defence and Security policies, IS NOT LEAVE.

      Frankly I don’t know what to make of Theresa May. We have proof that she has lied. But her advocacy of the DWA is insane. And Tory MPs are mad to support her. Do they seriously think that she is good for the nation? If so they will only wake up when the Tory party is reduced below 100 MPs at the next election.

  15. G Wilson
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 7:31 am | Permalink

    The fourth problem is that they can’t trust May, who has a track record of misleading ministers, or the EU, which plays fast and loose with its own rules.

    People who think the have a mandate to barter away our independence don’t belong in our Parliament.

    • Tad Davison
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 11:49 am | Permalink

      Nor even our country!

      Tad

  16. Bryan Harris
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 7:43 am | Permalink

    It’s like the old mantra we used to hear about IMPROVING the EU – ‘YOU HAVE TO BE IN IT TO CHANGE ‘ – That approach never worked with the EU, and there is no evidence it will work with a PM that is so in love with the EU that she would surrender her country to it.
    So just what are the options left when She has cotton wool in her ears?
    – it wouldn’t matter if half a million people descended on number 10;
    – the process to challenge May for leadership seems to be broken;
    – will parliament actually reject this agreement… or will events ensure we somehow manage to pass this vile legislation?
    The May government has already tried our patience beyond endurance with her new taxes and a slide to the left. Should we end up a vassal state to the EU, the anger will surpass even that generated by the abuses of King John.

  17. Roy Grainger
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 7:49 am | Permalink

    Not quite true that the EU doesn’t want to renegotiate the document – what they have said is that UK can’t renegotiate it but now that Spain has raised objections then they can, so it is a one-sided restriction. I see the section of the future relationship has been expanded from 7 to 20 pages – one wonders what horrors are lurking there – unilaterally giving away our fishing rights I imagine.

  18. mark riley
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:02 am | Permalink

    am clearly very simple but cannot understand this deal, no deal thing. We do not appear to have a deal as I understand it. In the words of May and all Gvt spokespeople all we have (for £39B) is a framework for future negotiations about a deal. The negotiations appear to subject a straightjacket dictated by the EU Commission which under any normal business negotiation would not be entertained. When the Maybot comes out with the mantra – taking back control, no more “vast” sums, bs, bs, bs, ….. Why is she never challenged that these are still only aspirational and not agreed. It was always promised that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed so why are we giving a minimum of £39B as much has yet to be(will never be) confirmed.

  19. Glenn Vaughan
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:18 am | Permalink

    I would like to see the current Prime Minister removed but assuming that Theresa May is replaced (which looks less likely with each passing day) what would prevent another “remainer” from becoming P.M. such as Jeremy Hunt?

    I’m unaware of any Brexit enthusiast in the governing party who has the overwhelming support of Conservative MPs.

    • Tad Davison
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 11:52 am | Permalink

      Beware the leaver who was until recently, a remainer.

      We want no more of that kind leading from the front.

      Tad

      • Mark B
        Posted November 20, 2018 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

        Agreed.

  20. Christine
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:19 am | Permalink

    If they stay their careers will be over anyway. TM will sideline them until she can quietly dismiss them. She will continue to fill her cabinet with Remainers. They need to make a stand and resign enmass. We are headed for an Article 50 extension followed by a second referendum. There is no end to TMs lies. She will bring down her party and the country to stay in the EU.

  21. Brahm
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:21 am | Permalink

    All that is happening is as a result of unintended consequences- Mrs May is very determined and it is unlikely the Pizza 5 will stop her- with her it’s personal now- she’s going to deliver a nightmare to your ERG and UKIP factions- as she has been listening to their anti EU whinge for thirty years now- M Thatcher was the iron lady so Mrs May is going to be remembered as the ‘steel’ lady and little anybody can do about it. The letters are not going in in the right amounts and in the end Tory personal careers come first, even the disreputable creationist’s DUP will come on side which will also signal their demise.

    I said unintended consequences because despite all of the ‘think tanks’ throughout the country nobody was planning for this- ie. the complete fragmentation of British society thinking.

    What we have is a withdrawal agreement that represents one person’s view as to what leaving should be but I am sure that there are thousands of other versions out there that are not even being considered. Mr Redwood this is your nightmare, you with the other Ultra’s started it, you nurtured it, with your constant sloganeering about taking back control, plus 350 on the bus and a tiger in the tank, and all the rest of the old guff. So now here we are?

    The Withdrawal agreement will not be opened again, the EU will not allow it, there may be some riders or protocols added but that is all. We now move to the start of talks for the future which nobody voted for.. like I say Pandora’s Box.. a mess..a complete dog’s dinner and all on a tory government’s watch.

    • John C.
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:15 pm | Permalink

      Seems a bit harsh to blame a true leaver for an agreement he opposes and which was created by remainers. Incidentally, the 350 on a bus was a fair ambition. Fouled up now,of course.

  22. Alan Jutson
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:22 am | Permalink

    I actually do wonder if Mrs May truly understands what is actually written and outlined in this agreement.

    Given it contains many references to legal jargon, and has been written by the EU equivalent of our Civil Service, it does need to be read multiple times to gain the true flavour of what is being proposed.

    Is she just relying on Oily Robbins interpretation ?

    Surely no UK MP let alone a Prime Minister could really accept this agreement if they really read what it contains, and understands its direction and proposals.

  23. oldwulf
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:24 am | Permalink

    Politics is a dirty game.

  24. Alan Jutson
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:26 am | Permalink

    I wonder if the Large Companies that make up the CBI will live to regret supporting the agreement.
    EU rules, legislation and regulation from now on in, with no UK say at all.

    Not much change to trading terms or cheap labour initially, but just wait a few years if the EU want to target certain industries to favour those within the Euro Zone.

    • Adam
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 10:37 am | Permalink

      The large companies and financial institutions that support the CBI, and support this agreement, are able to lobby at an EU level.

      And if they don’t like the rules dictated by the EU to the UK in the future, these companies can just shift operations to a different country.

      Whereas our SME’s and start-ups will be stuck with whatever laws and trade policies the unelected EC bureaucrats deem fit for the British economy.

    • Chris Maughan
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

      Big business are remarkably good at shifting their Head Quarters to where it suits prevailing regulations. If they believe the EU rules are purposely making the UK environment less competitive, I believe they will simply move there HQ elsewhere. Moving large processing units/factories is much more of a challenge of course.
      Unfortunately it’s the plethora of the UK’s small-medium enterprises who will suffer the most.
      That’s 94% of our UK companies who supply the vast majority of our employment.

    • a-tracy
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

      Who are the large companies that make up the CBI Alan? It’s a genuine question I don’t know, are they those majority owned by European shareholders and companies such as they’ve been accused? How many self-made large UK business Entrepreneurs are in the CBI is Dyson or the Chap on C4 news last night? How many sme’s pay subs to the CBI?

      • Alan Jutson
        Posted November 20, 2018 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

        a-tracy

        I thinks Adams response sums it up perfectly.

  25. jerry
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:26 am | Permalink

    Its a judgement call, and true judgement can only be made later, perhaps much later. Have these five Ministers said they would never resign over this issue, if their position not unlike your own when people on this very site were suggesting you should resign the party whip (if not join UKIP) when it looked like Mr Cameron was selling the UK out, yours and others pressure won the day – eventually.

    The one thing that MUST not happen is party infighting among Brexiteers, that is what Remain want, for the same reason this obsession with letters to the 1922 Committee is ill-advised, TM and this agreement can be more effectively defeated on the floor of the House.

  26. Alan Jutson
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:32 am | Permalink

    I foresee humble pie on the menu not Pizza !

    In my view they have now left it too late to do anything of substance, and that includes resigning.

    They now only have a career with Mrs May.

    Not surprised at Gove given his recent past, but thought the others would have rather more spirit.

    • Mitchel
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 3:14 pm | Permalink

      With a generous helping of Eton Mess!

  27. A.Sedgwick
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:40 am | Permalink

    Quite simply they are not Leavers, just as deluded as their leader.

    Unless the genuine CP Leaver MPs send letters of no confidence this act WILL pass.

    If a contest is held, the one year delay for another one will concentrate minds given a GE is now a probable in 2019 and do a majority of Conservatives want her in charge after 2017 and her widely regarded deceit in the country. Corby is a shoe in.

  28. The PrangWizard
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:43 am | Permalink

    May and the Withdrawal agreement are one and the same thing. May will not give any ground to those who oppose it, and she knows if it goes she goes with it; in her obsessions and intransigence she defends it regardless of the consequences for the country. She will probably concede more to the EU if anything. Anyone who opposes the Withdrawal agreement must oppose her, she must be removed now, before she travels. Those who say they can separate the two are deluding themselves and deceiving the people.

  29. Beecee
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:54 am | Permalink

    It has been reported that Mr Gove turned down the job of Brexit Minister because Mrs May refused to renegotiate the Agreement. He then states he is staying in the Cabinet in order to press Mrs May to renegotiate it.

    He cannot seriously think that this does not seem ludicrous?

    Treating the electorate as idiots – again!

    • JoolsB
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

      What is even more ludicrous is he has since stated that even if she still refuses to budge he still won’t resign. What a plonker!

  30. formula57
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:55 am | Permalink

    Soon to be named The Infamous Five perhaps?

    They have sat in Cabinet too long for any good they might do…..

    • Duyfken
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 11:04 am | Permalink

      Futile Five.

  31. Chris
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:56 am | Permalink

    Richard Littlejohn today has it about right: A Very British Coup
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6408215/RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN-British-coup-looks-like.html

    Whatever the Cons Party does now, he R L thinks they have no chance after the next election, whatever the Remainers feel they are gaining now.

    • Hope
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

      He is spot on. May yesterday said it was the deal she always wanted! What does that mean about her alancaste speech and following comments not be half in and half out or remain in parts would not be leaving? May is a liar and appears unable to stop lying.

      • Chris
        Posted November 20, 2018 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

        She seems to have mendacity diarrhoea.

  32. acorn
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:57 am | Permalink

    Did you know there are 141 Conservative MPs who form the “payroll vote”, the largest since 1979. They are pledged to vote with Mrs May; or, resign their government post. This amounts to 45% of MPs on the Conservative benches and 22% of the total number of MPs elected to the House of Commons. (HT: Who Runs Britain?)

    • Mark B
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 7:15 pm | Permalink

      As I have said before. We need to separate the Executive from the Legislature. No MP should be in a Ministerial position.

    • Narrow Shoulders
      Posted November 21, 2018 at 8:00 am | Permalink

      Interesting article.

      Friends close and enemies closer?

      Whose turn next?

  33. Chris
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    A good article, Mr Redwood. It demonstrates admirably the key problem about Tory Brexiter MPs, let alone the Remainer ones: very few appear to be principled, or have any honesty, integrity. This whole debacle has exposed our political elite for what they are, and it is not a pretty site. They seem rotten to the core.

    Our whole system needs a complete clean up, and we desperately need a new leader with the qualities of President Trump to effect this for us. He is winning against the deep state/globalists who we are fighting against and losing here. Not that the corrupted media in the US would tell you that P Trump is winning. They too are an arm of the globalists.

    There are many similarities between the US pre President Trump’s election and here, and the tiny glimmer of hope that I have is that we always seem to follow the US, eventually, in terms of trends etc, albeit a few years behind.

  34. Ed Mahony
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:11 am | Permalink

    I now support Hard Brexit – but for Sovereignty reasons only (not economic / immigration – don’t see big changes here either way – in or out of Europe).

    However, I only support Hard Brexit if we have the right Strategy & Tactics, the timing is right and we have right leader in place (just like in Business, War and Chess).

    And I want our vision for a future Britain based on that of Joseph of Egypt rather than the Pharaohs of Egypt! A country that is successful but has soul. That is patriotic and family-minded. Both realistic and romantic. A country of dreamers and a country of practical people – that get things done!

    Lastly, I want a Sovereign UK but that also has strong relations with the EU. Canada-deal. But also strong security and cultural ties. Britain is the best country in the world. But let’s not forget our European brethren also share the same Judaeo/Christian and Greco-Roman heritage as us. As well as same geographical area. Europe that has produced great men and women such as Mozart, Homer, Joan of Arc, Bach, Dante, Marcus Aurelius, Socrates, and so on. As well as beautiful towns and cities such as Venice, Prague, Paris, Seville, Salzburg, Florence and so on. And beautiful nature and things such as the Alps, claret, port, the Alhambra Palace, and so on.

    • Ed Mahony
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:22 am | Permalink

      Btw, it would be amazing to have a statue of the Vizier, Joseph of Egypt, erected in Parliament Square – in the most preeminent position.

      Joseph had it all: he was pastoral, exotic, a romantic and a realistic, a dreamer and an efficient and practical man. He brought great success to Egypt but was also a man of soul. Dignified but modest. Disciplined but compassionate. A true to servant to the Pharaoh and his people. A great example of work ethic, sense of patriotism, public duty and Christian virtue.

    • Ed Mahony
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:32 am | Permalink

      Lastly, it might be that the EU, one day, follows the UK lead. And that there will be an ORDERLY break-up of the EU (as orderly as possible) back into sovereign countries again. But where we ALL share close economic (Canada), security and cultural ties. Let’s hope for that / keep that in mind.

    • Mark B
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

      Ed

      Nice list. But personally I just want to LEAVE as we voted to.

  35. John S
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:11 am | Permalink

    I saw a headline this morning that Spain may veto the deal due to the Gibraltar issue. If this is the case then the Spanish may do the Brexiteers work for them; unless of course Mrs May sells the Gibraltarians down the river as well.

    • rose
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

      I thought she already had so far. I wish they would give us the details. What is being hidden?

    • Zorro
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

      Of course they are – they smell desperation and weakness in T May.

      If certain people don’t act with courage, honour and integrity now, they will be making a very dangerous mistake….

      Zorro

    • Paul H
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 4:19 pm | Permalink

      What do you imagine?!

  36. Kevin
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:12 am | Permalink

    Resign the whip
    Country before party

    • michael mcgrath
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

      Kevin

      An interesting idea. If the PM insists on a three line whip for the withdrawal vote, becoming an independant conservative will frustrate this devious ploy and will, I firmly believe, stand the MP in good stead with his constituents, especially with those who voted leave and are presently appalled by the betrayal which seems to be approaching

      • Chris
        Posted November 20, 2018 at 6:18 pm | Permalink

        I think the idea of standing as an Independent would very much appeal to voters. They would respect it as a move by the MP that actually means something and would regard it something that would require the MP to show character and courage i.e. not simply words saying that they support a true Brexit.

  37. libertarian
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:13 am | Permalink

    For the last 20 odd years the Conservative Party has been moving to the left, abandoning its free market , low tax principles and attacking the self employed and small business. They have adopted Blairite policies wholesale

    The pizza 5 have all ratted in one way or another before so doing it again is no surprise .

    We so desperately need a new political party in this country. One committed to bringing about real democracy too ( No before anyone says UKIP, they are clueless fruitloops) .

    Sadly the most important part of society ( our democracy) is about 100 years behind the technology revolution and the modern paradigm .

    Sadly what will probably happen is Farage will stage another comeback and rally 17 million people to his cause because there is no alternative and we will be back where we started

    • forthurst
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:58 pm | Permalink

      Have you thought of joining the Libertarian Party?

      • libertarian
        Posted November 22, 2018 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

        forthurst

        No point in joining any party. We have a two party system . Its rigged to remain a two party system. I once stood as an independent ( came third) The electoral system and spending is totally rigged in favour of the big two parties

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 11:18 pm | Permalink

      Libertarian, give Farage some slack. Without him we would never have been given a referendum. Everything he has said about the EU has been true and informative. He speaks people talk. No mucking around and for that I respect him.

      • libertarian
        Posted November 22, 2018 at 1:15 pm | Permalink

        Fedupsoutherner

        Thats as maybe but after 7 attempts Farage hasn’t got anywhere near being elected to the commons so its back to square one, rabble rousing. Thats my point

  38. Papa Luigi
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:17 am | Permalink

    This is a complete and utter Remainer mess. Brexiteers get the blame for the mess the negotiation has become. But the mess lies firmly with A Remainer Prime Minister, predominantly Remainer Cabinet, a majority of Remainer MP’s in Parliament, the rabid Remainer Civil Service, the vastly over represented Remainer Media, Global Corporations, gullible marching and protesting Remainers, who when questioned give fascile, trivial and emotive reasons for Remaining. And Remainer funded campaigns from individuals who do not live in the country (Soros and Branson). It’s a Remainer mess, without a shadow of doubt. That’s before you start talking about the greedy, bullying, obstructive and manipulative EU. And the politically opportunistic Labour Party.

  39. MickN
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:21 am | Permalink

    What a topsy turvey world we are living in when those that back the surrender plan are called patriots whilst the Daily Mail are now referring to the MPs that are standing up for their manifesto promises as “Lemming rebels”

    • Tad Davison
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 12:02 pm | Permalink

      Maybe people should do as I do and boycott any newspaper with a remain leaning. Perhaps if the Daily Mail had a different editor……………

      Tad

    • ian wragg
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 12:23 pm | Permalink

      I and I suspect many others have stopped buying the Mail. It is now an offshoot of the Mirror or Guardian.
      May continues to plough her own rotten furrow whilst the lily livered Tory MPs sit on their hands.
      I will never vote for them again. Spineless B–t–ds.

    • a-tracy
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

      Don’t read the Daily Mail.

    • michael mcgrath
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

      Lemming rebels, Pizza Five etc… The press do love their labels for headlines. I wonder how long we will have to wait for BREXITGATE?

  40. stred
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:22 am | Permalink

    JR. Are you aware that your site is marked as ‘not secure’ and do not reveal sensitive information. My windows 10 laptop has been cut off the net several times when reading and my smart phone has also displayed the message. Perhaps someone is up to dirty tricks?

    • fedupsoutherner
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 11:52 am | Permalink

      Stred, Yes, I noticed the Not Secure message the other day. Not sure of the implications.

    • forthurst
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

      Are you using Firefox? That simply warns me when I’m on an ‘insecure’ site; it doesn’t chuck me off. All that means is that this site is not using https and does not support encryption so GCHQ can capture your password and your thoughtcrimes despite the latter not having been moderated by JR; so no need to worry unless the men behind the curtain emerge to declare an overt police state.

      • Stred
        Posted November 21, 2018 at 5:41 am | Permalink

        I am using Google. Firefox was made inaccessible after a Windows update. The laptop goes off the net after reading Jr’s Diary then sorts itself out after a day. The deep state can watch all browsing records anyway. They can now nobble free speech. Interesting article in the Spectator this week about the situation in China. We are not far behind.

  41. Original Richard
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:29 am | Permalink

    Yesterday on national radio a remain supporting young lady said :

    “I don’t think we should ever have had a referendum. We elect a government and we put our trust in that government to make major decisions for us.”

    Leavers should be concentrating on making it clearer that membership of the EU means a UK government will not be taking the “major decisions” and that these will be made by people we do not know, have not elected and we cannot remove.

    It is clear to me that many people in the UK, especially the young, still do not understand how the EU works and if they did there would be many fewer remainers.

    This has not been helped by remain supporting Parliaments through the decades not making it clear to the country when legislation they are enacting has been initiated by and ordered to be implemented by the EU.

  42. Turboterrier.
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:31 am | Permalink

    The five are all are all back stabbing two faced and gutless (kippers)

    The cabinet and the CBI are instrumental on destroying this country and this party for their own dreams and expectations. They are incapable of thinking outside the box because they do not have the where with all to be in the box in the first place.

    The party if it really does want to survive has to totally rethink the whole selection process, having bumped along the bottom getting nowhere with the same old stereotype selected as a possible candidate for years.

    But will it be big and brave enough to do it? I think not

  43. JustGetOnWithBrexit
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:31 am | Permalink

    The Leave campaign is getting the sort of full, on propaganda treatment from Remain, that any (propaganda ed) machine would be proud of.

    BBC, C4, Sky etc.
    etc ed

    Then we have Tokyo Rose, in Downing Street, telling us resistance is futile…just surrender…the road to No Deal has been cut off!

    Get May out and we go on from there!

  44. Original Richard
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:34 am | Permalink

    If the reports are true that Mrs. May refused a cabinet vote on her proposed Withdrawal deal, then how can she say she had “cabinet approval” and does this not mean we have gone from cabinet government to PM government ?

    • Elvis junior
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 12:55 pm | Permalink

      You mean dictatorship.

  45. James Matthews
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:47 am | Permalink

    You are entirely right Mr Redwood. The difficulty is that so few of your Conservative colleagues seem to agree with you enough to do anything about it.

    Either Mrs May is one of the worst political negotiators in or history or she genuinely does regard what she offers as a good outcome. Given that she has risen to be Prime Ministers the second possibility seems the more credible, in which case she really never had any intention of delivering a real Brexit. She and her civil servants sought to keep the UK aligned with the EU to the maximum extent that they thought they could get away with. She signalled that to the EU in an unmistakeable fashion by making no credible preparations for a no deal Brexit. The deal achieves May’s objectives, but next to none of the objective of the majority of the electorate who voted to leave.

    The UK as a whole will never be allowed a referendum on anything important (though no doubt the Scots will).

    If the deal goes through the consequences of this spectacular political bad faith will be profound. Even the least cynical of us will have to accept that the British establishment believes in democracy only to the extent that it can persuade, frighten or bribe the electorate into accepting its rulings on any important issues. None of the labour supporters who lent the Tories their votes because of Brexit will do so again and hundreds of thousands of normally Conservative supporting voters will vote Labour or abstain. Fear of Corbyn’s policies won’t be enough for a Conservative win. We will have a Corbyn government.

  46. JoolsB
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:49 am | Permalink

    Let’s be honest, they’ve grown attached to their red boxes and ministerial cars. They are not willing to put their so called principles before their seat at the cabinet table and their ministerial salaries. They have shown their true colours. They would have earned far more respect if they had walked out with Dominic Raab and Esther McVey. Gutless, self serving cowards like most of the 650 MPs who put themselves and their parties before the democratic will of the people of this country.

    May is deluded and will now lose the support of the DUP and still they allow her to stay in office. We now have Government Ministers bombarding the airwaves threatening us with no Brexit if their rotten deal is not approved. We were told over and over again by traitor May that no deal was better than a bad deal but now it seems any rotten deal is better than no deal. If the DUP pull out and who can blame them, we have the real threat of a Corbyn Government so we lose either way, a Labour Government or keep May, both determined to thwart the will of the people. The only thing this pathetic useless deluded woman has achieved is to split her party and make sure the Conservative party is out of office for generations to come for their treachery.

    John still won’t tell us if he has submitted a letter to Graham Brady. We have Brexit MPs opposing May’s deal but obviously too gutless to submit those letters. They tell us it is between them and Graham Brady and no-one else’s business. When will these self serving MPs learn they are there to serve their constituents, not themselves, and their constituents have every right to know whether they support this rotten deal or not and if they don’t, they owe it to 17.4 million people to do their bit to get rid of May asap.

  47. Turboterrier.
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:50 am | Permalink

    A quote that sums up a lot of peoples feelings on our leader and her cabinet as they seem totally ignorant of the results of their present actions.

    “The most violent element in society is ignorance.”
    ― Emma Goldman

    As my old granny use to say “it is not a crime to be ignorant. But it is a crime to show it”

  48. Turboterrier.
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:53 am | Permalink

    Who was the origin of the stupid statement falling of a cliff?

    I am amazed that this country has fallen for it as it has.

    • Turboterrier.
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:55 am | Permalink

      off not of sorry

  49. Gordon Riby
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:59 am | Permalink

    The leadership situation in the party is now at a critical point:
    1. Mrs May has broken faith with the DUP which has resulted in compromising her government’s ability to pass legislation.
    2. Mrs May created what has turned out to be a “sham” department (the DexEU) and pursued a hidden agenda with the civil service, breaking faith with many in her party and again, destabilising her government.
    Both of the above points speak directly to her lack of integrity and poor judgement. The net effect of which will be very poor outcomes for both the Conservative Party and the country. Looking ahead I don’t foresee that position changing whilst she remains in her current role.

    I totally agree with your post. It’s clear that ministers who disagree with the deal serve no purpose by remaining in the cabinet (or other ministerial roles). There is a solution, question is do they want to be part of it?

  50. WingsOverTheWorld
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 10:01 am | Permalink

    Dr. Redwood, I believe it would be far more dramatic, and problematic, for the Gang O’ Five to resign on the eve of the Withdrawl Agreement vote, should it get that far. It would leave the PM scrabbling to replace the positions but would allow the former ministers to vote in good conscience. With regret, I doubt whether we’d actually get all 5, however. There is a distinct lack of moral fibre amongst a few of them.

  51. Brian Tomkinson
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 10:05 am | Permalink

    We must hope that you and your colleagues have a plan to remove Mrs May before she completes her work of betraying the British people with her (or should I say Oliver Robbins’s) capitulation to the EU. At least the DUP seem to be true to their principles. Your party, sadly, has a history of putting party loyalty above all else. In this case though it will result in the demise of your party. Remember what happened in Canada to the Conservative party? How does being reduced to 2 seats appeal? Don’t think it can’t happen here.

    • Brian Tomkinson
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 1:28 pm | Permalink

      Once again my comment is awaiting moderation. I get the message – you don’t want others to read my opinions.

  52. Kenneth
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 10:15 am | Permalink

    As we come to a critical point, the BBC is now out of control.

    Last Friday night’s Newsnight (16th Nov) had a studio full with extreme Remainers with no Leavers at all.

    The conversation was mainly about avoiding a “hard brexit”.

    Any leavers tuning in (the majority according the the referendum) may have felt a little left out and somewhat alarmed at the extremism as the BBC’s guests openly plotted to undo democracy.

    • John Fitzgerald
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 12:13 pm | Permalink

      I have stopped watching any political output from the Biased Broadcasting Corporation as I fear for the safety of my television!

    • Lifelogic
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

      Indeed the BBC guest are always about 5 to 1 pro remain. That way the leaver gets shouted down by four plus often chair too. Doubtless this is all cheered on by the appalling and totally dishonest socialist dope Theresa.

  53. hans christian ivers
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 10:15 am | Permalink

    The ERG initiative of no-confidence has obviously failed.

    It really makes the Group look rather like a “a group of middle aged men, whom nobody is actually really to organise”

    All rather sad, when one thinks this is the future of the country

    Reply As I explained here, it was not an ERG move! It is led by JRM and Steve Baker.

    • Paul
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

      Waiting for the Agreement to inevitably fail in Parliament and then call for a vote of no confidence in the PM, as I assume is JR’s strategy, is utterly pointless. Why waste time? Just get on with it now.

    • Edward2
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

      Carp all you like hans.
      The key things are…will the EU 27 agree to May’s deal and will the House of Commons vote to pass May’s deal.
      My guess is that they won’t.

    • Chris
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

      Reply to reply: you have far too many strands of Brexiters, and simply passing the blame to another strand is not acceptable. You should all be united, instead of trying to pass the buck for some perceived blame. It should very like Nothing to do with me, guv.

      • Chris
        Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:23 pm | Permalink

        Replace “should” in my comment above with “sounds”.

  54. Bob
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    I’ve been saying here for many years, if you wanted UK independence you would have to vote for a party whose raison d’être was UK independence.

    Offering a referendum to leave is not the same as leaving. A UKIP government would have repealed the 1972 European Communities Act, avoiding the smoke and mirrors of Article 50.

    Don’t say I didn’t warn you.

  55. Ed Mahony
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 10:25 am | Permalink

    Lastly, need to be careful that Brexit doesn’t result in Unintended Consequences (some/many good human projects end up with bad results because of poor Strategy, Tactics, Timing and Leadership or lack of).

    Ultimately, if Hard Brexit is going to succeed in the long-term, we must also be sure to focus on positive message / vision for the UK and UK Sovereignty (not that the EU is sh*t and life outside the EU would at least be better than this – the EU isn’t all bad although the UK is better off out than in).

    I think we need to get the Church, Business and Entrepreneurs, Arts & Culture, Health, Education, Armed Forces, the Judiciary, the Monarchy, and of course Parliament (leading it) all involved in this to create a joint vision of what British Patriotism is and why British Sovereignty is so important.

    Focusing on things such as: Work Ethic, Personal Responsibility, Respect to Employers and Employees, Public Duty, Family Values, Owning own Property, Importance of Rich Arts and Culture and Architecture, Education Meeting Focused Needs – And how all of this leads to positive Mental and Physical Health saving NHS Billions and Social Services in general. Building up our High Tech Sector with High Productivity Jobs, and adding Stability to Economy. And so on.

    That Project Britain isn’t just Public Duty (which it is) but more importantly something people can get genuinely EXCITED about (as I am – and I believe many more could be, above all the young, as long as we present the right message / vision).

  56. Charles v
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 10:28 am | Permalink

    The 5 seem to recognise something that you never have which is that the delivery of brexit will involve a massive amount of compromise with the EU and the remainder of their parliamentary colleagues.

    You can rant and rail all you like and you may well be right that this useless deal is inferior to no deal but it is the inevitable consequence of the unwillingness of you and others to try and find a consensus a majority can live with.

    The 5 probably also recognise that the deal does result in us leaving the EU. Once you do that then you can get on with working out what comes next, which is always going to be a dynamic thing.

    • Chris
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:24 pm | Permalink

      Re last para, it will be far too late.

    • libertarian
      Posted November 22, 2018 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

      Charles v

      Oh so you missed the census that the majority could live with then? At the last election 85% of the electorate voted for parties who said in their manifestos we would leave the EU, ECJ, Single market and customs union

  57. Turboterrier.
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 10:41 am | Permalink

    With all that is going on in her life at the moment I wonder if she has had time to read this open letter to 20 heads of state regarding the environmental policies?

    http://environmentalprogress.org/big-news/2018/10/25/open-letter-to-heads-of-state-of-the-g-20-from-scientists-and-scholars-on-nuclear-for-climate-change

    Hopefully some of the most dedicated remainers wake up and open their minds and think again like a large number of scientists and scholars seem to have done.

    • Stred
      Posted November 21, 2018 at 6:17 am | Permalink

      Interesting. Note that they sent the letter to most major countries head of state but left out May. The UK has all but 3 of it’s nuclear stations about to retire in the next 7 years and has chosen one European Pressurised Reactor to be built when the same design is overdue and over cost in France.
      Maybe they thought there eas no point sending the letter to a head who can’t understand technical matters.

  58. Ed Mahony
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 10:49 am | Permalink

    Lastly, Mr Redwood has made the best, cool-head, analytical arguments for Brexit amongst the Brexiters in my view. As well as Jacob Rees-Mogg. Revealing much of the fluff and folly of some/many Remainers on the EU/Brexit.

    And this might bug some people, but true, Theresa May has demonstrated extraordinary resilience in my view.

    (And has to be recognised that even the EU has, to a degree, remained extraordinarily united, above all, under Barnier)

  59. Ed Mahony
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 10:58 am | Permalink

    @Mr Redwood,
    Apologies for writing anything annoying. I genuinely support Hard Brexit (but under the right conditions), and I genuinely think you make the best argument for Brexit and how to implement it (along with Jacob Rees-Mogg).
    Best

  60. Edwardm
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 11:17 am | Permalink

    Agree. It is very disappointing that the “Pizza 5” are more tempted by the baubles of office than standing for what they claim to believe in. They have no credibility.
    That we have treacherous prime minister, yet, still in office blithely pushing ahead with her anti-British agenda is only possible because she is kept there by Conservative MPs.
    The Conservative Party is moving towards being a negative force – it needs to turn around. (Sure, the Labour party is far worse).

  61. old salt
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 11:27 am | Permalink

    I guess it’s high time again to follow the suggestions of our kind host as outlined previously before it’s too late, if not already.

    http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/08/12/what-can-a-leave-voter-do-to-expedite-our-departure-from-the-eu/

    There would seem to be many MP’s who still need reminding of their responsibilities to our democracy such as it is.

    From what I read elsewhere do I understand we would not have recourse to Article 50, for what use it has been only to keep us in, nor any MEP voting rights? I fear the possible implementation of the “5 Presidents Report” the Euro et al in due course.

    https://ec.europa.eu/priorities/publications/five-presidents-report-completing-europes-economic-and-monetary-union_en

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/5-presidents-report_en.pdf

    This is not what we voted for with around a convincing two thirds constituencies voting to Leave.

  62. ian
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 12:06 pm | Permalink

    Wait till you see the final deal in two year time, this only the interim deal to tie one hand behind your back so you can not get out of the final deal.
    You think you know something about taxes, you haven’t seen anything yet.

  63. miami.mode
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 12:06 pm | Permalink

    Mrs May made a great show of sending the Article 50 letter, special messenger etc, but her Withdrawal Agreement is obviously the antithesis of it.

  64. rose
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

    It is difficult to know what is in people’s minds but it rather looks as if Gove is worried that if he resigns people will accuse him of stabbing the PM in the back, and therefore they have all stayed. What a pity, if so, that how it looks determines what is right.

    On the matter of N Ireland, I have been disgusted by the veiled threats, coming through briefings and punditry, to withdraw money from the Province. This must be stamped on. But how typical of our PM that she can’t withold billions from the EU which ought to be witheld, yet is happy to withold money from Northern Ireland which needs and deserves it.

    • margaret howard
      Posted November 21, 2018 at 12:44 am | Permalink

      Hasn’t she just given a £1bn bribe to the unsavoury DUP for the 10 votes to keep her party and herself in power?

      • Edward2
        Posted November 21, 2018 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

        The money never went to the DUP

        It was extra public spending for everyone in Northern Ireland

        • rose
          Posted November 21, 2018 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

          And only half of it has arrived. The other half, plus routine spending on schools etc is being not so subtly threatened. Mrs Bradley, a PM pet, has already taken away the salaries of the Assembly Members when it is not their fault that just Sinn Fein is keeping it down.

  65. Roy Grainger
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    I’d be careful complaining about middle-aged men when we are confronted by a catastrophic mess created entirely by a middle-aged woman.

  66. Everhopeful
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

    Who will ever again feel like going to the polling station with that warm feeling of doing one’s duty, playing one’s part? Or simply making a fool of oneself? “ Brexit means Brexit”. I actually never believed in it,always fearing a spanner in the works, but many did. People thought that Brexit was in safe hands so their disappointment is greater than mine. But even I did not dream of betrayal on this scale!

  67. ian
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

    They are fighting over tactics, there is only one tactic if this vote goes through and that is to leave the party and become an independent and take the government down.

    • Chris
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:26 pm | Permalink

      Agreed, ian.

  68. John Booth
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

    Mr Redwood

    If you have submitted a letter to Graham Brady, thank you and if you wish this to remain private, then good for you.

    If you have not submitted a letter, I implore you to do so. This WA is a betrayal and Mrs May will not change it. So she must be replaced urgently to save the coubntry

  69. ian
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 2:01 pm | Permalink

    You will be able to tell your grandchildren about the GREAT lie of TORY party and how they played good cop bad cop to gain your vote. recession or near recession on the way, spending will dry up because so many will unhappy with what has happened.

  70. Mick
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1047775/brexit-news-supreme-court-article-50-revoke
    If by chance we don’t leave the Eu on March 29th 2019 because of overturning the 2016 referendum result then it will be curtains for democracy in this country, there would I’m sure be a full swing by the voter to right and far right parties and civil war on our streets the likes not seen since the 17th century , so these remoaners had better have a good think of what they wish for or face the warth of 17.4 million true patriots of this nation

  71. Ray Wood
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    For too long, the people of Britain have been denied their say. For too long, powers have been handed to Brussels over their heads. For too long, their voice on Europe has not been heard. This Bill puts that right. It delivers the simple in/out referendum that we promised, and I commend it to the House.
    Philip Hammond
    Hansard 9/6/15 vol 596

  72. den
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    If the leader will not change the document, the leader must be changed instead. Why are MPs waiting for it to be rejected by Parliament? All that means is that more weeks have gone by and we are no further forward in LEAVING THE EU – just as the majority voted to do, 2 years and 5 months ago and still counting.
    The current Government is totally dysfunctional and it needs to be changed. We voted to get our country back and all they do is write hundreds of words on a meaningless document that is so ambiguous not much of it is legally enforceable BUT it is open to a wide range of interpretations. A doddle for the EU to stitch us up again. All thanks to their 5th Columnists in Downing Street.

  73. Sam Duncan
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

    Let’s be honest: it’s obvious now what the plan is. Constantly talk up the idea that this draft is the only “Brexit” possible – indeed, that it is Brexit (we’ve already seen this in action in the comments here on your blog, most recently from Andy above) – thus blaming every difficulty and problem that’s bound to result from it on us, the Brexiteers (ditto), then open a path to rejoining, on the EU’s terms, in five years or so.

    It’s utterly despicable, and almost unbelieveable, but, as Patrick O’Flynn said over on BrexitCentral yesterday, “[W]hen a tightly-knit establishment is of one mind and yet a majority voted the opposite way, then means, motive and opportunity all point to the possibility of an organised and sophisticated subversion of the wishes of the people”. If your colleagues in Parliament don’t wake up now to the fact that No.10 and the Civil Service have colluded with the EU to deliberately inflict hardship on the British people in order to punish us for having the temerity to vote to be an independent sovereign state and change our minds, then I seriously wonder about the point of having them at all.

    • Andy
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:48 pm | Permalink

      Two theories – yours and mine.

      Yours: Our glorious Brexit is being thwarted by a mass joined up effort by the EU, the Civil Service, the House of Lords, big business, Labour, trade unions, Gina Miller, Tory Remoaners, the SNP, the car industry, judges, Lib Dems, Airbus, John Major, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, most academics, Spain, Leo Varadkar, Emmanuel Macron, think tanks, the media, the Governor of the Bank of England, George Osborne, pretty much every economist except Minford and millions of others.

      Mine: Brexit is – and always has been – a lousy, incoherent idea.

      Tough one.

      • Ed Mahony
        Posted November 21, 2018 at 12:44 am | Permalink

        @Andy,

        ‘Brexit is – and always has been – a lousy, incoherent idea’

        Forgetting strategy, tactics, timing and leadership which are important concerns of mine for leaving the EU, can’t you at least acknowledge that fundamentally / in the long-term / in principle, we’re better out of the EU than inside?

        How can outsiders controlling one’s country be an advantage to the UK?
        (Considering being in or out of the EU, in the long-term, won’t make any real difference to our economy – Australia isn’t part of the EU, it does just fine).

        Saying that, I believe we should have a good Canada-style trading agreement with Europe and close cultural and security ties – and warm ties in general. But why do we have to go beyond that?

        And then there’s the issue, of course, that the EU has serious problems of its own, in particular Greece, Italy, Portugal, high youth unemployment, and more.

        Ultimately, Hard Brexit – in principle – to me just makes more sense. I don’t see how you can disagree with this. But if you do, why?

      • Stred
        Posted November 21, 2018 at 6:27 am | Permalink

        QED. It’s a conspiracy.

  74. Peter Lavington
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    Mr Redwood – I’ve asked you before but got no response – I’ll try again. You are a man of principle and, what I would call, a Conservative. May and her government have hijacked the party and are not much different than the Liberals in terms of beliefs and policies. Your old style Conservative party no longer exists – why are you still associated with this current party? If you were to resign and force a by-election I’m certain you would retain your seat as an Independent. May has destroyed Democracy and has sold out to the EU. Why not try to go down fighting instead of capitulating?

    Reply I fought the election as a Conservative and will now vote according to the promises I made. I do not have to resign to stick to my principles.

  75. Paul H
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    Even people normally regarded as too sensible to tout conspiracy theories are now saying that there is a powerful conspiracy to stop Brexit. Of course, they are right – for those willing to keep their eyes open it has been evident from the start.

    However I have a question for you and similarly minded backbenchers. You are propping up a Conservative government which – shamefully – is openly party to this plan, and it seems that most Conservative MPs are, at the very least, too cowardly to do anything about it; many, of course, probably support the plan. So, as you demand ministers sacrifice their careers on this point of principle, I think those of you who oppose this abortion of a “deal” should sacrifice your places in the Conservative Party and work to bring government legislation to a halt. Resign the whip, and make quite clear that you will vote against the government on ALL legislative measures, but also against any attempt to call another election under the FTPA. Grind everything to a halt until May goes taking her “deal” with her.

    • Turboterrier.
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

      Paul H

      Bit radical but WOW it could work

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 11:06 pm | Permalink

      Great idea Paul. Radical action is required

  76. Tim M
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    Dear Mr / Mrs Conservative MP of England/ …

    You are walking down the street in Wokingham / ……….

    You see a police officer attacked by a man/woman.

    You walk on !

    “Did you not see what happened and he needed help ? “ asks another police officer at the inquest into the death of the first police officer ?

    “Yes, but I thoughts others would come to his rescue, so I did nothing!“

    So is the Tory Party today regarding Brexit !!

    Change the top guy or you will sink into disrespect forever and more sorry will follow !

    ..

  77. Qubus
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 4:54 pm | Permalink

    Sain threatens veto over Gibralter. Surprise, Surprise !!!

  78. Qubus
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

    Spain threatens veto over Gibralter. Surprise, Surprise !!!

  79. margaret
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

    The thing is Mrs May is there with all the other EU representatives daily. She probably knows more about the different reactions from businesses than anyone else .She has seen the potential problems and has gauged reactions from other countries, seen expressions, body language and other signs of how we are perceived, how we are likely to manage and what will stop the EU bringing us down. She will have picked up on the slights and sentences ambiguously which could be threats.Not many others have. She says she believes in her heart and her head that this is best for the country. I couldn’t possibly comment as I can’t see into the future.

    • Chris
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:29 pm | Permalink

      Sleights.

  80. Tim M
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 5:09 pm | Permalink

    Send in your letters now !!

  81. Tim M
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 5:14 pm | Permalink

    Mr R

    Looking at the whole picture I see the result of the vote as more than just a referendum on membership of the EU. Of the 559 Conservative and Labour party constituencies 395 voted to Leave ( 70%). The remaining 90 constituencies ( Liberal, SNP etc ) voted largely to Remain. So in the core of the country there was a huge vote to Leave, as if the voters put up two fingers to the Establishment and London elite.

    You Sir I am glad to see stand up for the country as a whole , rock on

    T

  82. Qubus
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

    Did anyone hear Peter Lilley on the BBC Today program this morning presenting the view that leaving under WTO rules would not be a disaster?
    Quite rightly, he commented on the imbalance of criticism of the Remain viewpoint. Time somebody stood up to the BBC.

  83. Steve
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

    Now there is talk of May having asked for the Army to be on standby to quell civil unrest in the event of a no deal or sell out brexit.

    To you, Theresa May, stupid woman, understand this: you do not have the authority to turn the troops on the British people, and what’s more….. YOU DO NOT DARE !

    Allegedly, the latest from JRM is that he thinks there are only twenty or so letters with Sir Graham Brady.

    Let the cowards who won’t put letters in know this: ‘if you don’t get off your lazy overpaid backsides RIGHT NOW, and get rid of this woman who represents a very real threat to the existence of the UK, then not only will we vote the conservatives out of power at the next general election, but will use our vote to ensure the conservatives themselves CEASE TO EXIST. We also will hold all of you to account for the betrayal and loss of our nation.’

    We WILL bring all of you to answer, no matter how long it takes. If you think the British people will allow you and your kind to get away with selling the UK down the river, you are in for a shock.

    You ‘might’ pull off these crimes, but you won’t get away with it you can be sure.

    I can find no other way to ram this home to the conservatives, other than to spell it out and force it into their thick heads that people are getting mightily pissed off with their sheer bloody arrogance in ignoring what we say.

  84. PaulDirac
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

    Support your view 100%.
    The Pizza 5 love their office much more than the country which sent them to represent them.
    All hands to the pumps or we sink!

  85. mancunius
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 6:59 pm | Permalink

    Mrs May adroitly spotted ‘leavers’ who might be suborned by money or the need for prestige into joining or staying in the cabinet. After all, cabinet salaries also mean an enhanced MP’s pension.
    She probably has a list of MPs with debts or with children of an age to ‘need’ expensive private schooling.

  86. Nick O.
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 8:02 pm | Permalink

    Well said, Mr Redwood.
    Simple, direct and correct.

  87. Steve
    Posted November 20, 2018 at 9:19 pm | Permalink

    Since there is an issue with some of us telling it like it is with lengthy posts, I submit a shortened version thus;

    Theresa May is a wrong-un and it makes us jolly cross. That ok ?

    Perhaps we could have some lighthearted fun instead of trying to get our concerns across about the country being sold down the river.

    How about; ‘a song for the conservatives’. You pick your favourite, download it and chill out with the headphones on and a bottle of stout, err, sorry French wine.

    Here’s a playlist:

    Backstabbers – the O’jays.

    I predict a riot – Kaiser Chiefs.

    We’re not gonna sit in silence – John Farnham.

    Run for your life – Beatles.

    Liar – Megadeth.

    Getting away with it – Electronic.

    Reinventing your exit – Underoath.

    You know I’m no good – Amy Winehouse.

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted November 20, 2018 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

      Steve, brilliant.

    • Mark B
      Posted November 21, 2018 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

      Hotel California – The Eagles and the EU’s new anthem.

  88. Lindsay McDougall
    Posted November 21, 2018 at 2:14 am | Permalink

    It is clearer every day that we will only get a hard (complete) Brexit after a General Election. Parliament must have the final say, but not THIS parliament. We need that Brexiteers’ Manifesto and a broad church representing the 52% that voted Leave.

  89. Stuart Gulleford
    Posted November 21, 2018 at 10:49 am | Permalink

    The cabinet ministers referred to would do well to heed your warning. I’m reminded of that old maxim, ‘you can’t polish a turd’. I’m also reminded of the long held Tory position that we must change the EU from within, which they clung to for 30 years or more, never actually achieving any meaningful change.

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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