The Withdrawal Agreement should be renamed The Stay in and Pay up Agreement

The EU does have a sense of humour. The so called Withdrawal Agreement is designed to keep us in whilst making us pay up. No sensible person could regard it as being Brexit, and no good negotiator would ever say Yes to a one sided proposal. Worse still it completely undermines our negotiating strength for the next prolonged phase, negotiations on the so called Future Partnership. This is not a deal for the future, and it does not end the uncertainty. The quickest way to end the uncertainty is to leave without signing it. Leave voters did not vote Leave in order to subjugate ourselves to new EU Treaties that we can’t get out of.

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149 Comments

  1. Posted November 23, 2018 at 4:21 pm | Permalink

    You can’t blame the EU for fighting it’s corner – but you can blame May and Robbins for total capitulation.

    Surely this can’t make it through the house can it? If so then we need a repeat of Cromwell’s address to MPs “In the name of God – Go!”

    • Lifelogic
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

      Indeed.

    • Peter
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 8:37 pm | Permalink

      May says ‘there is no plan B’. It is alleged there will not be another referendum while she is PM. Some interpret this as meaning she will resign if the withdrawal agreement does not get through Parliament.

      However, there are all sorts of permutations at that stage.

    • eeyore
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 9:16 pm | Permalink

      “The British lion, so fierce and valiant in bygone days … can now be chased by rabbits. We are suffering from a psychological collapse. We have only to stand erect and face our difficulties … for these same difficulties to be halved.” (Churchill, speech at Liverpool, 1931).

    • Stephen Priest
      Posted November 24, 2018 at 8:00 am | Permalink

      Raab Saying “I’d rather stay in the EU” is incredibly stupid.

      The Leave MPS should point that this agreement shows exactly how bad staying in the EU would be.

      When you are in the EU you cannot control your borders, your money and above all your laws.

      With this the withdrawal agreement you also cannot control you borders, your money and above all your laws.

      I would also point out that this agreement is for life, Jeremy Corbyn would probably just be for Christmas as we can always vote him out.

      • zorro
        Posted November 24, 2018 at 9:15 am | Permalink

        Look at what he actually said in context which was not that!

        zorro

      • Helen Smith
        Posted November 24, 2018 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

        He did not said that, quite the opposite, he said he would not advocate Remain but the deal was worse than doing so.

  2. Peter
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    Tell us something we don’t know.

    Meanwhile, May is sat there defiantly laughing at the rest of us. Parliament allows this to continue.

    • Adam
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 8:56 pm | Permalink

      Take a look at Theresa May’s Radio 5 Live appearance. With her multi-coloured shawl & the green globe in front of her crouched stark expression she was like Mystic Meg: predicting the misfortune of all those on the receiving end of her errant EU dealings. We need more Brexit MP intervention to make her power vanish, before her proclamations commit us to enduring thunder, lightning, rain & hurly-burly destroying our freedom.

      • Peter
        Posted November 24, 2018 at 8:17 am | Permalink

        It also looked like there was a cordon sanitaire between May and the interviewer. Perhaps the interviewer was worried Mrs. May’s malady was infectious?

        • Adam
          Posted November 25, 2018 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

          A preventative cordon would be prudent, Peter, including one against what seems like Theresa trying hypnosis.

  3. Newmania
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

    There seems to be almost universal agreement that staying in the EU is a lot better than this.
    Perhaps a second referendum is not the terrifying prospect you seem to regard it as.

    • John Hatfield
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 8:08 pm | Permalink

      Depends what the questions are Newmania. A repeat of the June 2016 referendum would be fine but then why bother as we have already decided to leave? A second referendum with a remain option would be unnecessary for the same reason. All that is needed is for the government to implement the referendum result honestly.

      • John C.
        Posted November 23, 2018 at 9:33 pm | Permalink

        Since we are supposed to be leaving, the next referendum’s choice should be a) leaving on May’s terms or b) leaving on WTO terms. Anything else would be “unacceptable”.

      • miami.mode
        Posted November 23, 2018 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

        Agree with all that, John. Any political party can campaign on another referendum, but the question would have to be staying out of the EU or rejoining with the prospect of increased payments and participation in the euro and Schengen.

      • Turboterrier.
        Posted November 23, 2018 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

        John Hatfield

        All that is needed is for the government to implement the referendum result honestly.

        Honestly? They don’t know the meaning of the world

    • Dave Andrews
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 8:27 pm | Permalink

      It’s just this deal that’s worse than staying in. No deal is better than staying in, and an FTA even better.
      Never mind, the Withdrawal Agreement won’t get through the HoC unless serious numbers of labour abstain (unlikely).
      No need for a 2nd referendum and the HoC probably will never agree on the wording anyway. Just implement the instruction of the first.
      So it’s exit with no deal in March, so we can challenge the EU to maintain frictionless trade – in the interim of course, until we can get a proper treaty agreed.

    • libertarian
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 8:29 pm | Permalink

      Newmania

      Seriously? 17.4 million voted to leave the EU. This Remain government has tried every trick in the book including outright lying. They are happy to lose the vote on this deal because thats precisely what they intend to do is keep us in the EU. They will never , ever allow another referendum because they are terrified they would lose that one too.

      The problem is if they do to us what they did to France, Holland , Denmark and Greece , that is overturn democratic votes I’m afraid it will tear this country apart .

      Our spineless politicians have a lot to answer for.

    • Richard1
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 8:36 pm | Permalink

      The slight advantages of Brino are out of the CAP and maybe the CFP, some sort of control over immigration from the EU and, post the leaving present, a saving of money. It does not seem to be better than remain as it won’t be possible to run an independent trade policy and some industries, such as financial services, are potentially damaged by it. The issue with another referendum would be how do people who want clean Brexit vote? Wouldn’t there be a huge number of abstentions which would morally invalidate the result? Etc

    • Maybot
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

      If Leave was never really an option why were we ever asked ?

    • Chris
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

      Interestingly, Newmania, Diane Abbott has warned against it as she says that Leave is likely to win.

    • Posted November 23, 2018 at 11:27 pm | Permalink

      Let’s just say there were to be a ‘second referendum’, Newmania, worded exactly as the other one.
      And let’s just say that Leave won again, but in vastly superior numbers.
      Would we hear the last of you? Or would you come here and tell us that you are graciously conceding defeat? And getting behind your country, being more positive about our golden future and wishing it well, seeing all the good things that being unshackled brings?

      Tell us. Would you?

    • rick hamilton
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 11:53 pm | Permalink

      Newmania –

      May is betting there isn’t time to organise a referendum by Act Of Parliament before 29th March next year. At that point Remain wil be meaningless as we will have left already. The only option for you would be Rejoin, inevitably on much worse terms than we had before.

      For me WTO is not ‘no deal’ but a ready made set of deals agreed at a global level higher than the EU. The power-mad EU will never accept a normal free trade deal, isn’t that obvious ?

    • zorro
      Posted November 24, 2018 at 9:19 am | Permalink

      No – the EU is bad, hence why we voted to leave, but as Raab said this is even worse as we submit without influence!

      zorro

  4. Brian Tomkinson
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 4:31 pm | Permalink

    Government ministers who are found to have misled parliament will generally lose their ministerial portfolio. By convention, a minister found to have misled parliament is expected to resign or face being sacked. Is Mrs May exempt from this convention?

  5. Kenneth
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 4:35 pm | Permalink

    It was Mrs May that called the Conservatives the “nasty party”.

    A stupid, naive thing to do as the media has never let us forget it.

    Now she wants us to commit to another stupid, naive thing, and that is, to give our country’s future away.

    If this goes ahead, history will judge that our democracy was given away by a government under a Conservative banner.

    Please stop this deal!

  6. MPC
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 4:54 pm | Permalink

    Leave voters voted to restore the authority of our representative democracy in full. We were successful in persuading waverers of the need for that. How ironic and sickening it will be if a majority of MPs do end up, first or second time of being asked, voting for this Agreement and therefore for a true ‘puppet parliament’. So much for full representative democracy then, as the Commission and some Remainers might say. Mr Redwood will then need to update one of his book titles to reflect this by simply deleting the question mark at the end of ‘The Death of Britain?’

  7. Vicky
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

    You say that no sensible person could regard this as Brexit, but I’m sorry it is, this is the Brexit you voted for. There was never a defined version of what Brexit was. Just 17.4 million different interpretations of what Leave meant. It was completely naive to vote leave and assume what the end game was. May has delivered a deal. It won’t appeal to all, but it is a deal nonetheless. If you voted leave, then you voted for this outcome. There are no, ifs, buts or maybes about it. A vote to leave was a vote to walk into negotiations and take a risk. The fact we have now taken that risk and it is not what you thought it would be is frankly too little and too late. It’s ludicrous to think that any Brexiteers could have done better. I didn’t see any of you trying, well apart from Davis who failed and Raab who also failed.

    • libertarian
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 8:32 pm | Permalink

      Vicky

      Oh for goodness sake not that old drivel again. The referendum was totally clear, we all voted for exactly the same thing . We voted to leave the EU, ECJ, SM, CU , nothing difficult about it. Just leave, in fact the EU’s own rules stipulate that no future agreements can be negotiated until we’ve left .

      Its amazing all the remain voters who haven’t got a clue about the institution they want to be part of.

    • Cerberus
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

      We voted to leave the EU and all of its institutions not to re-negotiate the existing relationship. The pamphlet sent out by Cameron made it all very clear. The current mess has been created by a remainer establishment. We were offered a Canada + FTA and should have taken it now that the Irish border has been revealed to be the non-issue it always was.

    • Maybot
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 8:46 pm | Permalink

      Yes there was a clearly defined Brexit. We were warned about it over and over by Remain during the referendum. It was walk away. The word ‘deal’ was never mentioned. Cameron had already tried a deal and come back with thin gruel.

    • Stred
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 8:57 pm | Permalink

      Many Conservative supporters are as deluded as this woman.

    • Steve P
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 9:05 pm | Permalink

      @Vicky
      “There was never a defined version of what Brexit was”

      I had already left Wokingham and was living in China at he time the debate started – and in Canada when the referendum occurred. In all that time it was clear what Brexit was – it was published worldwide. Government and Remainer literature stated leaving EU was leaving SM, CU, and ECJ. If I could receive this info in China/Canada and in the middle of the Pacific there is no excuse for those of you still in armchairs the UK. It is only the remainers who say nobody knew what Brexit was and it is the remainers who are trying to change it.

    • John C.
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 9:34 pm | Permalink

      Absurd . This isn’t leaving.

    • oldtimer
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

      The vote and the arguments preceding it were explicit. It was to take back control – of laws, borders and money. The person who has misunderstood what Brexit is all about appears to be Mrs May. Ryan Bourne suggests today, in the Daily Telegraph, that she must think it is all about immigration. But, as he points out, immigration is a symptom of the inability of the UK to control its laws and borders. The draft agreement effectively leaves the UK subject to the ECJ and EU regulations. It is not Brexit, despite Mrs May’s claims to the contrary. What Mrs May actually thinks and believes remains, of course , a mystery. Experience teaches us that we cannot rely on a word she says.

    • Chris Dark
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

      You sound a crotchety Remainer. Leave meant no customs union, no single market, no foreign power controlling the land, greatly reduced immigration, control again of our own borders. We knew precisely what leaving meant. And we didn’t vote for making “deals” either, we voted to get out of the whole stinking corpse. It’s the government that has been pressing for “deals” because of snouts in troughs. We didnt vote to be a vassal state; May has conjured that stuff up with the help of her “advisors”….leaving without actually dispensing with all the regulations and controls. Merkel is now openly demanding all sovereignty to be handed over from the other member states….as most thought she would eventually….another reason to leave.

    • Jagman84
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

      This certainly is not Brexit. It is what was in store even if remain had won. Including the abolition of the UK (well at least England), when the United States of Europe (some of) kicks in, in a few years from now. Our current status is no longer on offer so a 3-way, 2nd referendum, is impossible.

    • Teremba
      Posted November 24, 2018 at 6:50 am | Permalink

      Very well put! If Brexiters don’t like the Brexit they are not getting, it’s no use crying foul. Mrs May is delivering a Brexit, just not your Brexit: tough luck, no particular Brexit was ever on the ballot paper. Stop whining!

      • Edward2
        Posted November 24, 2018 at 7:37 am | Permalink

        The vote was to leave the EU.
        This deal does not allow the UK to leave the EU.
        No wonder both of you are happy with it.

    • anon
      Posted November 24, 2018 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

      If you believe in democracy.Then its obvious we should exit to a WTO compliant default like Canada forthwith. The negotiations are false and merely a delay and device to transfer money to the EU to prevent it imploding.

      Ask how and why can the EU even contemplate such a capitulation agreement if it claims to be democratic. Any party is free to run on a manifesto rejoin! The last party that tried that were toast.

      It is a litmus test for them as well.

      They have failed and whats more announced it to the worldstage. This is shaming for any EU democrat or negotiator associated with it.

      We voted binary “out” and out we should get!

  8. JoolsB
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 5:07 pm | Permalink

    So why John are you still supporting May. Why haven’t you and all those other Brexit MPs who said they would sent your letter to Graham Brady?

    • Chris
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 9:24 pm | Permalink

      Knighthoods may be in the offing? Apologies, John, I do not include you in that, but could not really resist it after Isabel Hardman called Theresa May out for her early knighthood for John Hayes (staunch Brexiteer, but had never voted against May, and is now not likely to according to Ms Hardman?)

      See my comment below for the Evening Blend newsletter from The Spectator, Isabel Hardman, about said knighthood. It just does not look good to the electorate, I am afraid. There is huge criticism/mockery of May on Guido and elsewhere.

      • A.Sedgwick
        Posted November 24, 2018 at 9:07 am | Permalink

        Any credibility left?

    • margaret howard
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

      Jools
      “So why John are you still supporting May”

      Future career prospects?

      May is already showing the way dishing out a few honours. But then she bribed the DUP with £1b of our money so what can you expect?

      Democracy at its best!

      Reply I am strongly opposing Mrs Mays Agreement!

  9. Sir Joe Soap
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

    Part of me thinks that the EU are so much better organised than us that we should indeed accept this deal and hold a referendum held on whether we turn the Houses of Parliament into a tourist attraction, with amateur actors pretending to make decisions for the UK.

    • mancunius
      Posted November 24, 2018 at 1:52 am | Permalink

      Sir Joe, we already have amateur actors there – as a tourist attraction it would enlist professionals.

  10. Pete Else
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

    And who do we have to blame for May being our negotiator? Conservative MP’s who value their careers more than the country.

  11. James Snell
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    Yes..and what are you going to do about it.. I mean what are you personally going to do about it?

  12. gordon
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

    many say this is as bad as it gets but you haven’t seen anything yet, just wait for all the nasty surprises the eu will spring in the future as it itself spirals in to the abyss dragging the powerless uk with them all the while shovelling in larger and larger contributions.

    i despair, i really do, what are these politicians doing, the only hope now is to extend the deadline and prepare properly for WTO personally i would just leave in march stuff them all!

  13. A.Sedgwick
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

    This is why May has to be stopped going to Brussels with notional authority to sign away our sovereignty.

    Who the hell does she think she is?

    As the no confidence tactic failed, any self respecting, patriotic cabinet minister should resign now.

  14. Gary C
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

    Re: “The EU does have a sense of humour”

    Yes at our expense, they are laughing at our governments stupidity.

  15. a-tracy
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    Can’t blame the EU for this deal blame May’s UK conservative team:

    Stay In, Pay Up, Shut Up

  16. hans christian ivers
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    JR,

    You have come up with this solution 100 times and there is no longer a majority in the population to support your view of no deal, s move on

    • libertarian
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 8:34 pm | Permalink

      hans

      As usual from you a completely fact and evidence free post

      • TRP
        Posted November 24, 2018 at 1:10 pm | Permalink

        Just for balancing the ärgument: what is your evidence of the contrary?

    • John C.
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 9:36 pm | Permalink

      Have you asked everyone, then? Or are you guessing?

    • Jagman84
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 11:06 pm | Permalink

      I am not sure where you get this impression from? The MSM have a massive bias towards Remain, so it may appear so, but real people do not see it that way.
      You are Lord Adonis and I claim my €10, while it is still worth something…

    • mancunius
      Posted November 24, 2018 at 1:59 am | Permalink

      Actually Hans, if you look at the polls, there is no majority for this deal, and no majority for any other option (including remaining or a second referendum) and the majority simply want to leave, so if you think about it, that leaves only the option of simply leaving without or at least before concluding any agreement with the EU.

      The population has already given its view. A majority is still determined to leave. Opinion has not changed, as stated by several polls and pollsters. The diehard remainer claim that ‘opinion has changed’ simply won’t wash, as it is the opposite of the truth.

  17. Alan Jutson
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

    I wonder if anyone has looked at this agreement from an opposite view.

    If we were not part of the EU and were a completely sovereign Country, would they then sign up to this agreement for what it offers ?

    If the answer is no, then why sign up to it now.!

  18. Leave voter Tring
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

    You sound like you are venting in a darkened room. Stop whining, man. What are you going to do about this betrayal, man? DO SOMETHING, DONT JUST SNIVEL ON THIS BLOG

    • Captain Peacock
      Posted November 24, 2018 at 12:25 am | Permalink

      Could not agree you more seems a lot of saber rattling and nothing been done.
      17.4 million want to leave but today we don’t even have a newspaper on our side the Daily Mail is in the remainder camp since to new editor took over.

  19. Fedupsoutherner
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

    Got it in one John!! I am really afraid about our future as it looks like it might not get voted down after all.

  20. ian
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

    Things couldn’t be better, Mrs May has done her job and brought nothing back from the negotiation worth voting on for a deal with the EU, most MPs have been left wondering how they can be seen to vote this bill through parliament against the wishes of the people when it contains nothing for the UK people or businesses, the pressure is now on MPs to do the right thing as seen by the people and businesses and vote the bill down, I do not see any amendment being put forward because there isn’t enough time left and they cannot overturn article 50 legislation, any extension of article 50, needs the 27 EU countries to vote on that first before the UK parliament can put through new legislation on the bill, it cannot be amended. I don’t think there will be the second vote before Christmas on the bill and parliament is not seating till the second week of Jan 2019.
    I an expecting a statement from MRS MAY over Christmas with leadership election in the new year if this bill fails to voted through parliament, If this bill goes through parliament in the two weeks time, it will happen right away.

  21. Steve
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

    JR writes;

    “The quickest way to end the uncertainty is to leave without signing it.”

    That is what most of us have been saying all along.

    However, ‘uncertainty’ in the context of brexit is a word used by big business intended to infer people might lose their jobs, because big businesses don’t like the idea that their cosy relationship with the corrupt EU might come to an end. They also stand to loose their source of cheap labour, and the thought of having to show respect to British workers frightens them out of their wits. Uncertainty doesn’t wash with me, the CBI needs to be told it’s members should ‘adapt to the will of the people’ or get out.

    “Leave voters did not vote Leave in order to subjugate ourselves to new EU Treaties that we can’t get out of.”

    Actually we did not vote for any negotiations with the EU. The vast majority who voted leave knew full well that the EU cannot be ‘negotiated’ with. The only way is to go in there like a Bulldog and rip them a new backside first, then offer to ‘negotiate’.

    Never send a lilly livered liberal to deal with the EU.

    • margaret howard
      Posted November 24, 2018 at 11:53 pm | Permalink

      Steve, I have news for you.

      The ‘SEND IN THE GUNBOAT’ era to bend the natives to your will has gone along with the empire.

      As for calling the EU ‘corrupt’ – a country whose leader can pay a bribe of £1bn for ten votes to an unsavoury party like the DUP to keep herself and her party in power can hardly take the moral high ground.

      Nor somebody who is now dishing out honours to keep MPs sweet.

      Despicable.

      • Edward2
        Posted November 25, 2018 at 8:47 am | Permalink

        You keep reaping this nonsense.
        The DUP got nothing
        Northern Ireland as a whole got an increase in its state spending.

  22. DUNCAN
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

    Cut the head off the snake. It’s the only way to save democracy

    • DUNCAN
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 6:22 pm | Permalink

      Unless of course the Tory party is packed to the gunwales with individuals like John Hayes MP.

      Are there any decent, moral MPs left in the HoC or is everyone shamelessly for sale these days?

      How do people like Hayes sleep at night?

      What have Tory voters done to deserve this?

      My blood is boiling and my skin is crawling

      • Lifelogic
        Posted November 23, 2018 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

        Indeed. ABOUT 150 sound and honest MP’s I estimate, at best. Mainly back bemch Conservativves.

      • Bob
        Posted November 23, 2018 at 9:07 pm | Permalink

        @Duncan

        “What have Tory voters done to deserve this?”

        More to the point, what has John Hayes done to deserve a Knighthood? And why has he decided to do a 180 on Brexit?

        The honours system has fallen so far into disrepute that it brings shame on our nation.

        I didn’t think my disdain for politicians could grow more intense, but a majority in the current Parliament are beneath contempt (our venerable host and his fellow travellers excepted of course).

  23. SW
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 6:10 pm | Permalink

    Dr Redwood,
    My M.P. is a Remain supporting Conservative. When I wrote complaining about ‘Chequers’ I received a somewhat belated two page reply urging ‘strategic patience’. My reserves of patience, strategic and otherwise, are seriously depleted; especially after reading your summation of events and Martin Howe Q.C’s chilling analysis. I have three questions:
    -What effective action, if any, can I and other seriously misled voters take to head off this travesty and prevent the UK becoming a German controlled vassal state?
    -What is Mrs May’s motivation for pressing on with ‘her’ Brexit in the face of rising resentment from all sides?
    -Why are the Leave side not effectively communicating the ‘this is what we become if we stay in the EU’ message to offset the TM megaphone propaganda campaign that is now under way?

  24. georgeP
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    What do you expect..negotiations have failed and spectacularly so..first we had DD the great SAS man who was going to run rings around them but he didn’t match up, rarely even attending meetings with Barnier and this handed the whole thing over to civil servants. Along with the rest of the Cabinet he signed off on the Withdrawal and then two days latet resigned..what a wimp! After that we had the ‘johnie come lately’ Mr Raab..who also didn’t’ last dickie time and is now out on manoeuvres, thinks its a smart career move..and still the civil servants are in the driving seat. So I say again- what do you expect? all of the whinge and crying from the back benches by IDS, JRM and others is not going to do it.. nothing is going to do it now.. Mrs May has been told Sunday is the day for signing up .. so much for taking back control

    • Stred
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 9:05 pm | Permalink

      This indicates the problem that honest Conservative MPs have with the snake faction.

  25. Mark B
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    Good evening.

    Thank God, I was beginning to get worried.😉

    We cannot blame the EU for everything. Mr. Barnier said as much when he stated, that it was the British PM who requested that the UK stay in the CU. It was the PM who created, then undermined not one, but two BREXIT Secretaries.

    It has been clear to me, and now a growing number of people both here and elsewhere, that the Civil Service and Big business, fronted by the CBI have hijacked BREXIT for their own selfish ends. To that, they have essencially said to the EU; “Here is a blank piece of paper, tell us what you want ?”

    No one in ‘power'(sic) wants BREXIT. Why ? Because as I keep saying, it will me that they, and they alone, will be responsible. And their fine jobs and benefits in all probablity would be lost because they would show, once and for all, how badly this country is managed.

    And why we are on the subject of people going AWOL. Where is, Denis Cooper ? Denis, if you’re out there mate don’t do anything silly. I know you voted for her and I know you’re a bit miffed at her betral. But believe me mate, she ain’t worth it.

    Chin up 😘

    • John C.
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 9:46 pm | Permalink

      There’s very little anger here, or indeed anywhere, with the EU. They are behaving as one would expect.
      The anger is especially with Mrs May, and with those of her MPs who seem to lack any spirit.
      It is also not directed at Labour, who shift position overnight in order to bring about an election; they are almost completely without any beliefs except the desirability of regaining power. But even this shiftiness has not drawn upon them the wrath directed at the P.M.
      I suppose it’s because we expected better.

    • Bob
      Posted November 24, 2018 at 11:52 am | Permalink

      “she ain’t worth it”

      and there’s plenty more fish in the sea, or there will be if we dump the CFP.

  26. Caterpillar
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 6:16 pm | Permalink

    In 1989 the Chinese people protested in Tianamen Square, seeking more democracy. They lost and democratic freedoms were reduced. In 2016 17 million British sought the same, they seem to have lost and their democratic freedoms will be reduced. Shocking and scary.

    • Cerberus
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 8:48 pm | Permalink

      What may be coming if democracy is denied may be equally scary. This country will be ungovernable.

    • fedupsoutherner
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

      Caterpillar. In other words we are no better than China regarding democracy. Our country is led by a bunch of cowards and liars. Is there anyone in parliament willing to put their country before their career apart from people like John?

  27. Know-Dice
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 6:22 pm | Permalink

    So May has moved from “no deal is better than a bad deal” to “any deal will do” this is crazy and it’s up to you MPs to stop this.

    Noises from other EU countries indicate to me that their are beginning to break ranks so strike whilst the iron is hot…

  28. Stred
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 6:22 pm | Permalink

    The interview with May on BBC today managed to completely avoid the actual wording of the document and all to complaints and analysis by lawyers. She was asked personal questions or largely irrelevant points, most of which she did not answer. The media are allowing her to pull the wool.

  29. acorn
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 6:33 pm | Permalink

    I will say it again for the umpteenth time on this site. The UK is voluntarily leaving the EU Club. The EU Club is not throwing the UK out of the EU Club.

    The Art 50 procedure does not give any tangible going away gifts to the leaving member state; other than a hint at some possible, future relationship after that member state has ceased to be a member of the EU Club.

    If you follow the Redwood -ERG “no deal” plan, what happens to the UK plc economy and its share price (its currency exchange rate) between 30/03/2019 and 30/03/ 2029?

    • John C.
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 9:49 pm | Permalink

      I don’t know; do you?

    • Jagman84
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 11:15 pm | Permalink

      To be honest, we have been screwed over by big business since the year dot. It is not all about £££s, it’s about freedom and the survival of democracy in the UK. I see that you always steer well away from that subject as you are a busted flush otherwise.

  30. ian wragg
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

    I watched some of Mays interview on the TV. She didn’t answer any question and just kept on repeating the same old rubbish over and over. I walked out halfway as I found it embarrassing.
    She can sit there telling bare faced lies thinking we are all stupid.
    She wouldn’t tell what exactly the £39billion was for or how it was calculated, only that it had ben reduced from £100billion so was a bargain. But……….it could increase if we extended the IP.
    She says we are leaving the CFP when the white paper an political declaration says otherwise.
    She is a disgraceful liar and should not be leading this once proud country.
    She couldn’t bring herslf to mention England, we are only regions.

  31. cosmic
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

    I don’t altogether blame the EU for this. May and our own negotiators have either shown conspicuous incompetence, or have not been working toward an objective we would expect or approve of.

    • miami.mode
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

      cosmic. By losing two Brexit Secretaries and appointing a third who will not have any responsibility for negotiating with the EU, it is perfectly plain that Mrs May has been undermining them by personally conducting the negotiations by proxy.

  32. rose
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 7:02 pm | Permalink

    Yes, we should leave without signing or paying. I fear if we do, civil servants and ministers will insist on making up the same sum by paying for emergency bilateral agreements.

  33. Tabulazero
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

    Leave voters did not all vote to impoverish themselves otherwise Remain would have won.

    You simply misled them as to the economic consequences of Brexit by pretending that the UK would get all it asked from the EU and pretty much replicate the Single-Market minus the bits it did not like.

    You would never had won had you campaigned on Leaving on WTO terms alone.

    • Stred
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 9:11 pm | Permalink

      In effect we did. Cameron and Osborne+ the rest repeated that to leave would mean leaving the customs union and setting out alone. Don’t lie.

    • John C.
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 9:55 pm | Permalink

      I don’t remember Dr Redwood saying that the UK would “get all it asked from the EU”, nor do I remember anyone at all discussing the various deals upon leaving: it was a matter of staying in the EU or getting out. Perhaps you could quote from the referendum campaigns something that would support your memories.

      Reply I always said the only thing we could do without their agreement would be a no deal departure which would be fine, but it was in the interest of the rest of the EU to come up with a better deal unless they wished to be vengeful.

      • Brian Davies
        Posted November 24, 2018 at 8:16 am | Permalink

        John C, let me help you – follow this link to see the wild claims John Redwood made in 2016 about how easy it all would be for the UK . (He will of course never apologise or accept any responsibility)

        http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2016/07/17/getting-out-of-the-eu-can-be-quick-and-easy-the-uk-holds-most-of-the-cards-in-any-negotiation/

        Reply Glad you have highlighted this – it still reads well today. It confirms I said we should leave the single market and just leave without a deal, offering them a free trade one. Had we adopted this approach I suspect they would have wanted an FTA but we will never know because the UK government did not play our cards as recommended here. THis article also shows I was always relaxed about leaving with no deal.

        • Brian Davies
          Posted November 24, 2018 at 9:15 am | Permalink

          Never once have you done anything constructive like try to draft such a free trade deal! It’s all just abstract carping from the sidelines by you

    • Jagman84
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 11:19 pm | Permalink

      You mean that WTO trading by which we run a healthy surplus with the rest of the non-EU world? A disaster waiting to happen! Yeah, right!

  34. oldtimer
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 7:13 pm | Permalink

    I agree with your objective of leaving without signing this draft agreement and the declaration (reportedly already under attack from EU states wanting access to UK fishing waters). My concern is how you get there. I understand the legislation is in place to ensure that is the default outcome (effectively Plan B). But I also read that the Pizza 5 have their own alternative scheme (presumably called Plan C) to extend membership, at a price, for yet another year. So long as May is PM then Brexit is at risk. It would remain at risk if another Remainer were to replace her. Interesting times.

  35. Christine
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

    Hear, hear! What I can’t understand is why anyone at the HoC is prepared to vote for this. What the h**l is going on? It’s as plain as a pike staff to anyone with one iota of common sense or intelligence that what you say is entirely correct. How on earth do we get your colleagues, the PM and the Cabinet to see what you and I can see? Or perhaps they are not interested in this great country of ours and only their own personal interest and ambition? Shameful, if true.

    Please put us out of our misery and leave without signing it. We can’t take much more of this purgatory and humiliation.

  36. Richard1
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 7:24 pm | Permalink

    I suggest you re-form Vote Leave asap, at least informally, and meet to agree on a coherent alternative which all Brexiteers can agree to support. Maybe it’s EFTA or some variation thereof. What I don’t think works is for some to say leave and go to WTO terms, some to say accept May’s Brino, and some to say it could be OK with a few tweaks.

    To me it seems clear in a straight choice that remain is better then Mrs May’s Brino-limbo. So for Brexit to be supported now it needs a clear road map.

    • libertarian
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 8:37 pm | Permalink

      Richard1

      I’ve been saying this for some time. Vote Leave should not have been mothballed until we were out

  37. margaret
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

    One can only assume that the money the EU are as good as misappropriating from us has a UK compatriot who is also a beneficiary!

  38. John Hatfield
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 7:34 pm | Permalink

    Theresa May is clearly subjugating herself to the will of the Establishment. By what lines of communication she is being controlled it is hard to detect but the way that Ollie Robbins was inserted into the negotiating process would suggest it is actually the Civil Service that is running things on behalf of big-business. Obviously her husband is party to this or he would have extracted her long ago.
    She has no honour.

    • Chris
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 9:32 pm | Permalink

      I believe that it is the globalists/deep state/NWO running this, and they have huge resources and financing behind them, plus a compliant MSM. May is apparently a willing tool of theirs, but she will be dropped I suspect, just as soon as her usefulness to The Project has run out. Some UK MPs have been singularly naive about the threat facing this country. President Trump is battling the deep state, and is winning, although you would never believe that from the MSM. However, his values are rather different from Theresa May’s, and he is prepared to stand up for his country and to drain the swamp. Theresa May, I believe, is pumping more effluent in, and is apparently very much part of said swamp. I wanted to be wrong on this, but events/her actions seemed to have proved me right.

  39. Pud
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 7:35 pm | Permalink

    If the Conservative party thinks that they can screw up Brexit either deliberately or through incompetence but still get voted for at the next general election because we’re all meant to be scared of a Labour government then I suggest that they have made a big mistake.
    If we are still being ruled from Brussels then Corbyn will be constrained so Labour isn’t the threat they could be. Whilst I couldn’t vote for them I also couldn’t vote for a party who thought Brexit means still be controlled by the EU.

  40. Ron Olden
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 7:40 pm | Permalink

    There are many flaws in this proposal but the fatal one is that not only is there no incentive whatsoever for the EU to agree any Trade Agreement, there’s a perverse incentive for them not to.

    If there’s No Agreement on a Trade Deal by the end of the implementation period we will be faced with either Leaving with No Deal which we could do now without paying £39 Billion, or conceding that Northern Ireland effectively remains in the Single Market and Customs Union with us out of it, or the whole UK staying in the SM and CU indefinitely.

    All of these options are much worse than Leaving with No Deal now.

    But there doesn’t appear to be anything at all on the agreement about whether we would have to pay any contributions if our membership pf the CU and SM continues indefinitely.

    Basically what we are being offered is 21 months extended membership of the Single Market and Customs Union is exchange for £39 Billion.

    I wouldn’t pay them 39 pence for that.

  41. Chris
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 7:45 pm | Permalink

    Re the title of this article: yes, indeed.
    There is a report in Evening Blend, Spectator about May awarding John Hayes a knighthood and it is not flattering. I would like to ask what on earth is this woman doing? Brazen apparently “buying” of votes/support will not go down well with the electorate.

    “Who actually supports Theresa May’s Brexit deal? We may finally have an answer: John Hayes, or Sir John to you from now on, thank you very much. Hayes is a prominent Brexiteer who just happens not to have criticised the deal or handed in a letter of no confidence – yet. And now it has been announced that Hayes is to receive a knighthood, it looks as though neither of those threats to May will arise.

    Yes, Downing Street is launching a charm offensive ahead of Parliament voting on that unpopular deal, and the knighthood is just a small part of that.”

    • Bob
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 9:17 pm | Permalink

      “Hayes is to receive a knighthood,”

      He’s sold his principles for a mess of pottage by the looks of it.

    • Stred
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

      These days a knighthood is a mark of the traitor. Stand by for Sir Olly Robbins.

      • Chris
        Posted November 24, 2018 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

        What a mockery she is making of the honours system. This government were supposed to have been tightening up on this corruption. Yes, I can quite imagine Sir Olly. Trips off the tongue. It is too serious to jest about, but she knows we are helpless to do anything as long as her Brexiter MPs do not ACT.

  42. Davek
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

    Look we have to be sensible about this- the withdrawal agreement is there and we should go along with it. It will get us into the transition period with talks about the future but if for any reason or reasons the talks on the future don’t work out we can then put our ducks in a row and just walk away. We can’t turn the clock back so better forge ahead to see what happens

    • John C.
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

      As far as I can see, we can’t just walk away. We will need the EU’s permission. OK with you?

    • Jagman84
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 11:25 pm | Permalink

      If we sign up to this surrender, the EU will have no need to talk any further. That is what Merkel intimated when she said that the document was a final version. We will be dragged into the United Europe with no voice to object.

      • Cerberus
        Posted November 24, 2018 at 12:23 pm | Permalink

        The talking would indeed be over. Then the fun starts.

  43. Des
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

    Pay up and put up.

    • cosmic
      Posted November 23, 2018 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

      And shut up

      • Des
        Posted November 24, 2018 at 8:37 am | Permalink

        That’s what the EU want us to do!

        I can’t believe how the will of the people as been thwarted.

  44. Davek
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 8:24 pm | Permalink

    Also..we shouldn’t allow ourselves to get hung up too much with the Irish border, chances are there will be no border in Ireland in another ten or twenty years time and the DUP will be a footnote. The whole NI thing is costing us too much time and money, I don’t know why we are still there for two million people it’s costing us a fortune. Let it go- we need an audit clean out of all these legacy things that are costing us money including payments and handouts to foreign governments, countries, NGO’S etc

  45. ian
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 8:56 pm | Permalink

    The people against this bill in the UK has gone through the roof, any MPs seen trying to vote this bill through parliament will come to regret it, as the people will move against them on mass.

  46. Mike Wilson
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    I wish people would stop posting nonsense like ‘May must be replaced’. There is no majority in the Tory party to replace her. Even with a withdrawal agreement even remainers say is worse than staying in, some vocal brexiter MPs have not got the bottle to put their letter in. It’s pathetic. The Tory party has made this country a laughing stock.

  47. Rob
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 11:05 pm | Permalink

    Apart from TM, have any other Conservative MPs been persuaded to promote this deal in the media?

    • Chris
      Posted November 24, 2018 at 1:32 pm | Permalink

      Not a negative headline this morning. All sewn up. The alternative media is the best bet. Brexiter MPs should be clamouring and fighting and taking steps to loosen and remove the vice like grip this government has on the country and its operations. True Marxist agenda.

      The schools are in a bad way (am glad Mr R has introduced the topic of schooling)and they need root and branch reform, but first scrutinise the education training departments and determine exactly what is going on there first. Those are at the root of the problem. There will be no action from May as she is part and parcel of the problem, apparently supporting all the cultural Marxist “programming” that is going on in schools.

      Children are not born to be snowflakes, rather the opposite and to turn them into teenage snowflakes, desperate to find safe spaces to shield them from life, averse to risk, unable to reason but only able to spout the latest propaganda they are taught, and constantly worried about their identity and gender, deprived of support from one of the most stable and successful units for bringing up children (the family), is a crime in my view. This is not preparing them for life and is not giving them the stability and security that is needed to form a responsible, aware, compassionate and confident adult.

  48. Turboterrier.
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 11:34 pm | Permalink

    How is it that May and the whole Tory party stood for the election on their manifesto which was getting out of the EU as voted for by 17.4 million people.

    To add insult to injury the house voted for on Brexit and the Article 50 was passed. It is enshrined in law and cannot be just overturned. With the present debacle that the country is being presented with I am amazed that HM the Queen doesn’t put in her four penneth . What is happening to this country must shake her belief in her Prime Minister and politicians

    This deal May goes on about is not based 0n the underlying expectations that was asked by the voters and their views did not include the people being given consideration to another referendum.

  49. Edwardm
    Posted November 23, 2018 at 11:46 pm | Permalink

    Clear and simple.
    Not 500+ pages of obscurity. No false intentions.

  50. Steve
    Posted November 24, 2018 at 12:10 am | Permalink

    I’m at a loss to understand which is worse – the briber or the bribee for accepting it.

    Surely, bribery in public office is illegal ?

    I am now convinced Theresa May is an absolute shyster and so too are all the corrupt cowards allowing her to remain in office.

    The only course left for the conservatives is to; remove the shyster immediately, replace her with a real brexiteer, leave the EU immediately with no deal and rout the party of all the insurgents keeping this public enemy in power.

    If they don’t, and God forbid they actually pass May’s brexit, this will eventually lead to violence that will make the poll tax riots seem like a minor disagreement.

    The British public are not buying this crap from Theresa May, and everyone you talk to these days is extremely angry that she has not been removed, and when I say angry, I mean ‘REALLY VERY ANGRY !’

    I’ve talked to otherwise quiet mannered WW2 service age pensioners who’ve expressed sentiment that May and her cohorts need to be(dealt with firmly ed)

  51. mancunius
    Posted November 24, 2018 at 1:22 am | Permalink

    John, we know exactly what it is, and we have long since realized (at least since the 8th December Joint Declaration ) that our ‘negotiators’ have capitulated to vested interests here and abroad.
    The question is, rather than just saying what we all know, what are you and your colleagues doing to stop it?
    There is every chance that May will get a sizeable number of Labour MPs to support it – perhaps in return for the offer of a GE. And whatever Corbyn says about opposing the bill, many Labour MPs will sneakily support it, just to try to engineer a vote of confidence and a GE.
    Six days ago, immediately after May’s ‘agreement’ was leaked, Labour were up three points to overtake the Tories (down five points). The proposed Withdrawal deal does not smell any more fragrant six days later, after the pseudo-future ‘indefinite maybe’ – one everyone in the country seems to have seen through.
    How long are your colleagues going to pretend that black is white?

    • Chris
      Posted November 24, 2018 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

      Indeed, mancunius, action is needed, not just words to satisfy the speaker of those words that at least he has made his case clear, as if that gets him/her off the hook from taking the action that he knows will unseat May.

      Action has to be radical as the Brexiters have left it too late and the Remainers have had a pretty easy time of entrenching themselves firmly. How could any Brexiter MP believe that appointing Hammond as Chancellor was other than a giant indicator of exactly how May was going to play Brexit?

      Either resign the whip en masse, or to be more effective set up as Independents, fighting for/standing up for Brexit. (You have too many disparate groups at the moment apparently supporting Brexit, but there are too many egos and too many niggles. Time to dispose with those. This is a matter of life or death for the UK).

      The action proposed above would soon put a very big spanner in the works, and could attract huge support amongst the electorate, so much so that those waverer MPs might just see that it would be in their interests to join a new movement which, critically, so many in the electorate are clamouring for.

      Reply Resigning the whip would mean the fall of the government and those who resigned the whip having no vote in the leadership election in the Conservative party which would follow!

  52. Colin Hart
    Posted November 24, 2018 at 5:54 am | Permalink

    It perhaps a little unfair on the May person to accuse her of lying. Her problem is she does not what the truth is. She simply spouts what her ‘advisers’ tell her to say. Apparently she has a great facility for memorising anything that has been put in front of her but no ability to question any part of it.

    • am
      Posted November 24, 2018 at 8:53 am | Permalink

      A very inadequate view of May. She is not a person controlled but one who controls. Just think of the last general election. She sidelined the cabinet and went around boring people senseless with her strong and stable leadership speech with cabinet ministers half asleep sitting behind her.

  53. Peter Davies
    Posted November 24, 2018 at 8:24 am | Permalink

    I think we all know that these agreements are nothing but a joke and a ploy to get the UK to ‘re join etc.

    Question is, is there a provision for the repeal of EEC legislation to halt BREXIT in the event of no withdrawal agreement and where on earth do we go from here?

    Our civil service and political establishment have let the UK down big time.

  54. Bryan Harris
    Posted November 24, 2018 at 9:04 am | Permalink

    One can only agree with you JR – Too many expletives come to mind to describe this alleged deal, but we all know we have been shafted, deceived and imprisoned within a tight framework that permits no improvement – Where is the man in the red cape when you need him?

  55. Shieldsman
    Posted November 24, 2018 at 9:23 am | Permalink

    Outstanding questions.
    When May’s Withdrawal Agreement is defeated will she resign?
    If not will she be pushed?
    Who will be the next leader of the Conservative Party and PM?

    Are we talking about Turkeys for Christmas.

  56. A.Sedgwick
    Posted November 24, 2018 at 9:23 am | Permalink

    The Labour Party have outflanked the CP since the transfer of power to the members, who can join quickly and for £3.

    Although introduced by Miliband jnr. Corbyn & Co have exploited it professionally.

    Currently SNP have more members than the CP, which will fall after this debacle.

    With a similar system the CP would have been flooded with new members to overturn the undemocratic Remain/Turkey Conservative MPs.

  57. Bryan Harris
    Posted November 24, 2018 at 9:52 am | Permalink

    JR
    This video is allegedly from a government social media site – It’s just full of lies:

    https://www.facebook.com/UKgovernment/videos/599111260521952/

  58. Iain Moore
    Posted November 24, 2018 at 10:04 am | Permalink

    Philip Hammond has said that May’s Brexit deal is bridging the gap between Leave and Remain voters because any deal which looked like one side winning would be disastrous.

    I don’t remember any regard for the EUsceptic side of the argument when the EUphiles were ramming through the Maastricht treaty, or Amsterdam, or Nice, and when they actively obstructed people having a say on Lisbon.

  59. Iain Moore
    Posted November 24, 2018 at 10:14 am | Permalink

    Mrs May has said the £39 billion is the result of legal commitments. So it won’t be hard for her to publish an itemised bill so we can check if that is true. It would be nice if someone in Parliament sought to ask her this rather than take her word for it.

  60. Chris
    Posted November 24, 2018 at 10:22 am | Permalink

    I would urge Tory Brexiter MPs to read this article by Kathy Gyngell, Conservative Woman website. I think it sums up the problems with regard to the Brexiter MPs failing to stop the sell out of this country, and puts in stark terms how desperately serious it is. Ms Gyngell writes about what she considers is the only way to save the day for Brexit (some egos will have to be managed):

    https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/its-time-for-you-tory-brexiteers-to-grow-up/
    “….unless they want Mrs May taking them for fools through or even beyond the next election, it’s time to abandon their illusions and face the truth. Which is this: the only deals in town are her dreadful deal, or a No-Deal. Making the public case for for the latter – a No-Deal that never was anything to fear – is now, as Melanie writes, ‘a matter of the utmost urgency’. And the case for it needs to be made ‘as loudly and thoroughly as possible’.

    David Davis, Dominic Raab, Boris Johnson, Iain Duncan Smith, John Redwood, Bernard Jenkin and Co have a very short time to step up to the plate – they really are in the last chance saloon for Brexit and electorally – and demonstrate for once in their political lives they can transcend ego, do this and act as a team. And, instead of forever testing the wind to see which way power in the party is blowing, put their country before their party.

    If there was truly a time for them to grow up, it is now”.

  61. HK1
    Posted November 24, 2018 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

    The Lib Dems broke the promises they made to their core voters and went from 57 seats to 8.

    Any Conservative MP who falls for Theresa May’s “if you block this deal you will get an election and Corbyn” line needs to ask Nick Clegg how betraying your electors worked out for him.

    To say that the Conservative party would be decimated for many parliaments to come is an understatement.

  62. Denis Cooper
    Posted November 24, 2018 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    For months Theresa May swore blind that the EU’s free movement of persons would end when we left the EU on March 29th 2019. As just one example, from July last year:

    https://www.politico.eu/article/theresa-may-free-movement-of-people-will-end-in-march-2019/

    “Free movement of EU citizens to Britain will end in March 2019, Prime Minister Theresa May’s official spokesperson said Monday.”

    And now she is going around pretending that her withdrawal agreement would allow the UK to limit low-skill immigration from the EU, for example on Monday:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46257168

    “Theresa May has renewed her efforts to sell her draft Brexit withdrawal agreement – arguing it will stop EU migrants “jumping the queue”.”

    And today:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6423577/Theresa-announce-curbs-low-skilled-migrants-bid-Brexiteer-backing.html

    “Theresa May is set to announce limits on low-skilled immigration to Britain in a bid to get her Brexit deal through the Commons, it was claimed last night.”

    The impudence of this woman beggars belief: as she knows perfectly well, under her plan she, and Parliament, would have no more power to restrict immigration from the EU the day after we left the EU than the day before, because we would have entered a potentially unlimited oxymoronic “transition period” during which nothing would change, including the application of the EU’s rules on the free movement of persons.

    Any UK immigration scheme which departed from what was previously permitted under EU law would require a new agreement to come into force after the end of the so-called “transition period”, that is if it was ever came to an end, as made clear in paragraph 4 of the non-binding political declaration:

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/758556/22_November_Draft_Political_Declaration_setting_out_the_framework_for_the_future_relationship_between_the_EU_and_the_UK__agreed_at_negotiators__level_and_agreed_in_principle_at_political_level__subject_to_endorsement_by_Leaders.pdf

    4. The future relationship will be based on a balance of rights and obligations, taking into
    account the principles of each Party. This balance must ensure the autonomy of the Union’s decision making and be consistent with the Union’s principles, in particular with respect to the integrity of the Single Market and the Customs Union and the indivisibility of the four freedoms. It must also ensure the sovereignty of the United Kingdom and the protection of its internal market, while respecting the result of the 2016 referendum including with regard to the development of its independent trade policy and the ending of free movement of people between the Union and the United Kingdom.”

    Is nobody going to ask Theresa May why she is announcing plans for immigration controls which would still not be permitted under her withdrawal agreement with the EU even if she bribed and bullied enough MPs into vote for it, and which might or might not become permissible in some years’ time under some future relationship agreement including “the ending of free movement of people between the Union and the United Kingdom”?

  63. Chris
    Posted November 24, 2018 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

    To those Brexiter MPs who have not handed in their letters to Sir Graham Brady, and also all Tory MPs, please examine this statement by Hammond, reported by The Telegraph:

    Brexit latest news: Any deal seen as ‘win’ for Leave would be ‘disastrous’, says Hammond

    If you Tory MPs accept this, which you apparently do by your continued support of Theresa May then you are not deserving of the title of the Right Honourable and should be dismissed at the first opportunity. I believe the whole government should be brought down so we can start afresh with those worthy of the position of MP.

  64. Jacqui
    Posted November 24, 2018 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    If Parliament votes for this travesty of a deal by the next election and people who voted for it will be very disillusioned. They will realise they have been duped and there will be one hell of a backlash against all parties. The government are ramping up their threats I for one don’t care what they say just get us out. Fed up of all the lies and charades. Why do remainders think if we remain then the country will come together! More like ignore the 17.4 million they will never forget or forgive.

  65. Chris
    Posted November 24, 2018 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

    Iain Dale looks more closely at the John Hayes episode and the “history” about Mr Hayes, of which Dale is apparently well informed. Apparently Mark Francois has sent an interesting letter to Mr Hayes, which is now in the public domain i.e. on I Dales’ website.
    https://www.iaindale.com/articles/tory-mps-go-to-war-over-john-hayes-utter-cock-knighthood
    “It’s no secret that the parliamentary Conservative Party is riven with splits over Europe, but when Tory MPs start laughing uncontrollably about government decisions and taking little notice of government whips, you know it is a government in trouble…..

    But I do wonder if Theresa May has fallen for one of John Hayes’s oldest tricks in the book. And I have reason to know what this might be. It’s entirely possible that Hayes has told Number Ten that he can deliver a whole tranche of maybe 20 votes for her, if only they follow his advice. Let me explain why this might be a real possibility…..”

  66. Rien Huizer
    Posted November 24, 2018 at 4:03 pm | Permalink

    Mr Redwood,

    It appears that the UK membership will end in 2019. Is that not leaving an associations?

    I still wonder why all these “negotiations” were taking place. If I leave my golf club, I do whatever a leaving member shoud do and then go. There is hardly any space for discretionary treatment of leaving members under the consitutional documents governing the Commission, or for that matter, whatever Barnier is doing, so the transition period may show us fresh repertoire. As far as I know, the UK asked for a transition period in order to gegotiate a future relationship other than “no relationship”, not the EU. I guess no one on the EU side would have a big problem if the UK would just leave (but then of course, no residence permits for expats, no aviation agreement, nuclear etc) The 39 billion is a rounding error and could be handled by temporary relaxation of the stability pact and the trade relationship will continue because there are no serious subtitutes for many things EU countries export to the UK. The only good cars made in the US are made by BMW, Daimler Benz and the big Japanese. Anyway, you would probably belong to the minority of UK citizens wh0 would have no problem.

  67. D. J. Fullwood
    Posted November 24, 2018 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    A lot of words have been spoken about the withdrawal agreement. It can be described in three words. Capitulation, Humiliation, Degradation.

    We are not worthy of our fathers.

  68. VotedOut
    Posted November 24, 2018 at 5:36 pm | Permalink

    Anyone who thinks the Conservative Party could survive voting Mrs May’s Carthaginian peace deal into law is fooling themselves.

    A no deal brexit is the ONLY way to get a good deal out of the EU. We will have £40 billion to help OUR people over the short term hiccup. There is nothing to fear – we have survived far worse!

  69. Al
    Posted November 24, 2018 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

    Your headline needs updating. It seems the deal should be renamed the “Stay In and Pay Up (with Gibraltar)” agreement.

    I am amazed. I must applaud Ms. May, because I honestly did not believe she had the nerve to go that far. Three hours after a Gibraltar minister, Samantha Sacramento, assured the DUP conference the government would not give way to Spain, May announced she had.

    I sincerely hope I will applaud the House of Commons in dismissing her entire rotten deal, but I suspect I will be disappointed again.

  70. Chris
    Posted November 24, 2018 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

    The Express online reports the following tonight:
    “BREXIT LIVE: Tusk lists five reasons why deal MUST be agreed but admits NO ONE is happy”
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1049699/brexit-live-eu-draft-deal-not-in-DUP-interest-Arlene-Foster-Theresa-May

    I would suggest there is no MUST about it. We should only sign up if the country is behind it, and they are not. Theresa May should not allow the UK to be bullied. The fact that she does permit it suggests she goes along with the terms dictated by the EU. That is no way to effect Brexit, but we are all fed up with saying that. Boris, your speech at the DUP conference was very good and a rousing speech. Come on, and take some action here. We really are at the last chance saloon and there will be nothing effective that you can do after it is agreed with the EU. Tory Brexiter mPs seem to think that they have a real chance at the vote in Parliament. I would suggest that they won’t as it will be engineered by the PTB that May will win. I fear the establishment/globalists are as crooked as that, but Brexiter MPs seem unwilling to acknowledge this huge danger.

  71. Denis Cooper
    Posted November 24, 2018 at 7:20 pm | Permalink

    For information, the finalised withdrawal agreement has just been published as the most recent addition to the EU Commission’s collection of negotiating documents:

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/brexit-negotiations/negotiating-documents-article-50-negotiations-united-kingdom_en

    Unlike earlier version(s) still on offer elsewhere, including the UK government website, this has Article 132 as follows:

    “1. Notwithstanding Article 126, the Joint Committee may, before 1 July 2020, adopt a single decision extending the transition period for up to one or two years.”

    Rather than the previous version which ran:

    “1. Notwithstanding Article 126, the Joint Committee may, before 1 July 2020, adopt a single decision extending the transition period up to [31 December 20XX].”

    However it should be recognised that nothing in this agreement can ever set an immutable limit to the length of the oxymoronic “transition period” during which nothing will change, including the free movement of persons, because we have seen before how easily, and how quietly, a suitable amendment could be slipped through if all parties agreed to a longer, or even and indefinite, extension.

    It is also interesting that a quick search throws up 124 references to the phrase “before the end of the transition period”, many of which are connected with the continuing rights of EU citizens to come and stay and work and receive social security benefits and so on, in other words to carry on with same EU rights of free movement as now.

    I stand to be connected, but it seems to me that where the preamble says:

    “RECOGNISING that it is necessary to provide reciprocal protection for Union citizens and for United Kingdom nationals, as well as their respective family members, where they have exercised free movement rights before a date set in this Agreement … ”

    that date would generally be the date of the end of the transition period, whenever that may be if ever, not any date specified in the body of the Agreement.

  72. Steven Gee
    Posted November 24, 2018 at 7:58 pm | Permalink

    So now Gibraltar.
    Theresa May is the most duplicitous Prime Minister in our history.
    If you will not stand against her, it is time to resign my Tory Party membership and join UKIP, Tommy Robinson at all.
    Maybe we do need an extremist to clear the cowards and traitors out of Westminster.
    It is beyond shocking what my Tory party are doing to this country in these negotiations.
    You must be utterly ashamed to be a Tory MP on ‘Theresa May’s backbenches’.

  73. Chris
    Posted November 24, 2018 at 8:28 pm | Permalink

    Another example of May’s words/claims not matching reality:

    D Telegraph online heading: Brexit latest news:
    May accused of caving in over Gibraltar after Spain secures ‘triple protection’

    Theresa May’s version of events:
    PM insists: ‘Our position on Gibraltar has not changed and will not change’

    This duplicity/lying, call it what you like, cannot be allowed to go on, Mr Redwood. How dare she do this to our country. She is acting outside her powers, with a blatant disregard for the standards required by the office she holds and for the electorate. she has acted, in my view, in a manner that brings our country, and the office of PM, into shameful disrepute.

  74. ukretired123
    Posted November 24, 2018 at 8:36 pm | Permalink

    By contrast Fiona Bruce would not allow the EU to run rings around her unlike Theresa May and her natural calmness arks her out as a true leader wasted at the BBC.
    She listens and is canny enough amongst ordinary people.
    How refreshing it would be if the roles were reversed as TM can only do scripted sound-bytes!

    • Chris
      Posted November 24, 2018 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

      T M sounds programmed.

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, He graduated from Magdalen College Oxford, has a DPhil and is a fellow of All Souls College. A businessman by background, he has been a director of NM Rothschild merchant bank and chairman of a quoted industrial PLC.

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