A reply to the Minister on the World at One

The Minister defending the government’s line said on the World at One that Conservative MPs who planned to vote against the Agreement did not understand it and had not thought it through.
Let me reassure him that I and my colleagues have read and thought about it in great detail, and have thought through the ramifications of signing this dreadful deal, and of not signing. It is not a good idea to pretend that we have idly decided to vote against a government we usually support. That will not make us want to vote for it. It is the absence of detailed government explanations and answers to our deep reservations that lead us to vote against. I do not make these remarks personal to the Minister, as I assume he was asked to take this line.

The Minister also wanted to know if they got some kind of tweak to the Irish backstop if then we would vote for the Agreement. It appears the Minister does not understand the reasons I and some others have given repeatedly and in public for rejecting this deal. Of course we would not suddenly support if there was a tweak to the backstop. Let me repeat for the Minister’s benefit I oppose

1. Signing away more than £39bn of our money for nothing in return
2. Signing a Withdrawal Agreement without having a legally binding text of a Future Partnership Agreement, despite the Manifesto promise that the two would be progressed together
3. Putting our country into a very weak bargaining position for 21 months or much longer, to try to get a future trade deal, having given away most of what the EU wants in advance!
4 Making us accept all existing and new rules from the EU for an indeterminate period, as they could then legislate without us present and do us harm if they wish

Any tweak to the Political declaration is irrelevant. What is needed is a dropping or complete re write of the legally binding Withdrawal Agreement.

The Minister also said I and my friends had to set out the detail of how our trade would work if we vote no. I suggest he reads the WTO rules and especially the 2017 WTO Agreement on non tariff barriers, and my submission to the Department of International Trade on the customs schedule we should set with lower tariffs than the current EU one. In particular they should make it clear the UK will not impose any tariffs on components coming into UK factories. He might also like to tell me when under the government’s approach he thinks they might be able to tell us how we will trade with the EU after the end of the so called Transition period, as of course the Political declaration is both vague and contradictory on these matters.

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93 Comments

  1. Longinus
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 3:14 pm | Permalink

    You don’t know what you’re voting for.
    They need to change the record.

    • Hope
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

      IDS and Raab clearly think this backstop was the working of May not the EU! What does this tell you JR? Who was this minister?

      May is going for remain in the EU by any means . She was clearly hoping to bump you all into her servitude plan without time to read or change it. She clearly thinks the only alternative will be to remain as we are. I think there is trouble brewing for MPs who are actively trying to thwart Brexit. They appear to be growing in confidence to ignore the referendum. A big mistake.

      Look at France and see where Macons globalisation plan is heading. Good of Trump to highlight they should scrap the Pairs agreement!

      • Steve
        Posted December 9, 2018 at 11:50 pm | Permalink

        Hope

        “I think there is trouble brewing for MPs who are actively trying to thwart Brexit. They appear to be growing in confidence to ignore the referendum. A big mistake.”

        Bring it. Millions of us just itching for a scrap with the corrupt pro EU establishment. The way this country is governed needs to change.

        • Timaction
          Posted December 10, 2018 at 8:27 am | Permalink

          Agreed. No more fptp for the legacies. We want change and a real choice not a cosy swamp any more!

        • NickC
          Posted December 10, 2018 at 6:43 pm | Permalink

          Steve, Indeed. We need to scrap the current House of Lords. It should have around 120-200 Ealdors elected by proportional representation. Existing Lords could speak and work, but not vote. Expenses for the Ealdors, nothing for the existing Lords.

    • Richard
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 7:00 pm | Permalink

      ‘Withdrawal Agreement’ is the spinny name given by Brussels-The Cabinet Office.
      If Proper Brexiteers insisted on calling it the draft Surrender & Subordination Treaty – its intended purpose – that would help lift the smokescreen.

      The only conclusion we can draw from the one-sided nature of the draft Surrender & Subordination Treaty that she proposes is that May, the EU and the Irish government have all been sitting on the same side of the table. There is no other explanation.

    • Richard
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 7:13 pm | Permalink

      The draft Surrender & Subordination Treaty is the ultimate “Doormat Strategy” (aiming to throw away all the UK’s strongest cards)

      e.g. on Defence: Marcus Fysh: “Parties could have a strong case against state aid being allowed to GB defence industries … UK Government support would therefore be hostage to negotiation of any future Defence and Security or trade agreements between the EU and UK, at a time when the EU’s declared intent is for centrally planned EU forces, operations and defence industrial capabilities. …the Withdrawal Agreement is a serious risk and compromise to national security and the UK’s sovereign ability in defence.” https://brexitcentral.com/withdrawal-agreement-seriously-risks-compromising-national-security/
      Sir Richard Dearlove, Lord Trimble & others:
      “For the first time in its history, Parliament is being asked to suspend its own sovereignty: it has no constitutional or moral right to do this. … The ‘deal’ surrenders British national security by subordinating UK defence forces to Military EU control and compromising UK Intelligence capabilities. It puts at risk the fundamental Anglosphere alliances, specifically the vital Five Eyes Alliance and thereby threatens western security. …” http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/12/06/yesterday-i-launched-a-politeia-pamphlet-how-to-take-back-control/#comment-979003

    • Mike Stallard
      Posted December 10, 2018 at 9:28 am | Permalink

      I have been banned for some time and was just trying to see if you had let me back on. I am reading eureferendum.com regularly and finding it most helpful.
      Could you please put it onto your blogroll?

  2. HenryS
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

    The EU is not going to open or ŕewrite the Withdrawal agreement as Mrs May will be told again when she contacts them by phone tomorrow. So with the defeat of the agreement in the house on Tuesday- who knows how it will go- probably to WTO rules and whatever that brings. Boris on Marr tbis morning is invoking the name of Romano Prodi an old ‘hasbeen’ Italian politician from the 1990’s as being our saviour. Well good luck with that- so what does Boris think that the EU has? a house of Lords? We can see he has a new haircut and tucked his shirt in as per his advisors instruction so presumably he thinks that his time has come, and good luck with that as well

    • Bryan Harris
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 3:38 pm | Permalink

      It’s almost a certainty that the EU will offer a new ruse should May be defeated in the vote…
      Whether this be extra time to carry on talking, or some changes to the wording of the great document.

      JR – I would suggest that if the EU provides extra time, that would be the opportunity to get rid of May and install a PM that could negotiate a real deal.

      • Timaction
        Posted December 9, 2018 at 4:09 pm | Permalink

        Indeed. If anyone considers her deal acceptable then they are not democrats or patriots. Still awaiting a response from my e mail to Number 10 after Mays betrayal was published.

        • Hope
          Posted December 9, 2018 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

          Does any minister or MP supporting May hope to be ever elected again? I ask because I cannot genuinely find anyone who will say they would vote for such a person.

      • margaret howard
        Posted December 9, 2018 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

        Bryan

        The EU will offer a new ruse? Have you already forgotten that it was Britain that voted to leave the union? When you are a member of an organisation and then decide to leave it, the other members have a duty to ensure none of them are disadvantaged.

        • Maybot
          Posted December 9, 2018 at 8:06 pm | Permalink

          You respect the French and their rioting ? Their water canon and tear gas and sting balls ???

          As I pointed out to you – we English blue-collar classes do not do rioting… however, you were quick to blame the 2011 rioting on us when it was the ‘youth’. (a week or so ago in these comments.)

          We voted in our millions for UKIP and got no seats. We voted in our millions and got no Brexit.

          We still remain peaceful and patient yet all you do is come here and sneer at us.

          • Captain Peacock
            Posted December 9, 2018 at 11:54 pm | Permalink

            In the 2017 elections 37% voted Tories and got 332 MPs 20% voted UKIP and got 1 MP.

          • margaret howard
            Posted December 10, 2018 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

            Maybot

            ” we English blue-collar classes do not do rioting…2

            So what class were the people who rioted during the miners strike in the 1970’s for instance?

            I remember the 1981 Brixton riots, 1985 Broadwater farm riots, ’91 Poll tax, ’96 Trafalgar square, ’99 anti capitalism riots – quite a handful.

        • Fedupsoutherner
          Posted December 9, 2018 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

          Margaret. Those of us that voted to leave don’t want favours from the EU. We just want to leave. It is those that wish to remain that are doing the negotiating. We didn’t ask them to! I ask again, why do you hate your own country so much?

          • margaret howard
            Posted December 10, 2018 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

            ” I ask again, why do you hate your own country so much?”

            I don’t believe in blind deference. Too often it leads to flag waving nationalism.

            And to people attacking the person rather than the argument.

        • Bryan Harris
          Posted December 10, 2018 at 10:48 am | Permalink

          @margaret howard – and the EU as that organisation have the responsibility to be open and honest – something they never are… If you imagine the EU has played fair over the negotiations, then you haven’t been paying attention

          • margaret howard
            Posted December 11, 2018 at 12:25 am | Permalink

            Open and honest? Like Mrs May and her acolytes you mean?

        • L Jones
          Posted December 10, 2018 at 6:01 pm | Permalink

          Good grief, Margaret! You seriously think that if you, for example, decide to leave your local golf club then the club will call down all sorts of torments and afflications upon you so that (a) it’s not worthwhile leaving, or (b) you’ll suffer so much you’d wish you’d never confronted the membership committee?

          ”Ensure none of them are disadvantaged”? Who would join a club in the first place knowing what awaited them should they not be happy with its management?

          Your stance is ridiculous.

    • Richard1
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 4:05 pm | Permalink

      One immediate advantage of Boris becoming PM is the Country will save £100bn on HS2, assuming he cancels it, in line with his views. Add the £39bn saved from the EU leaving present and there could be some meaningful tax cuts. I’d suggest Corp tax to 15%, abolition or sharp reduction in stamp duty, and restoration of the non Dom exemptions. Boris will also give an immediate welcome and guarantee to EU citizens. The mood music could change quite quickly.

      The only problem would be distraction caused by the soap opera of his private life.

      • Stred
        Posted December 9, 2018 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

        Disappointing to hear Boris say that removal of the backstop would be enough.

      • Caterpillar
        Posted December 9, 2018 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

        If Boris cancels HS2 it will bring on trouble similar to to May’s remain policies. HS2 is one of the few (only) sizeable infrastructure project that will help growth outside London and the SE. Remain/London-SE centric views are well aligned, dumping HS2 is just as dangerous as May ‘s WA. A clean Brexit + infrastructure and growth outside of London/SE need to go together. Delivery of HS2 needs to be speeded up (though I agree managed better).

        • Richard1
          Posted December 9, 2018 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

          They could do a proper northern line such as Leeds Manchester. HS2 is a clear wealth destroyer for the UK and needs to go. It was a political vanity project

          • Jagman84
            Posted December 10, 2018 at 6:58 pm | Permalink

            It was/is an EU directive to build it. As per usual, HMG complies without a whimper. Gutless to the core.

      • Bryan Harris
        Posted December 10, 2018 at 10:50 am | Permalink

        One enjoys a little opera, as long as it doesn’t take over from everything else (:

      • L Jones
        Posted December 10, 2018 at 6:16 pm | Permalink

        ”.. the soap opera of his private life..” Only orchestrated by the gutter press. And we all know about click-bait.
        Why on earth should the private life of an effective leader (so long as it is not harming the innocent) be of any concern when the good of the country is involved?
        If Boris is the man, and this is the hour, then wouldn’t it be madness to dismiss him because of his occasional peccadillo?

        • rose
          Posted December 11, 2018 at 10:06 am | Permalink

          It wasn’t a problem for Palmerston. He was even cited for adultery in his eighties and his opponents got the litigation stopped for fear it would win him the election. He won it anyway.

    • Roy Grainger
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

      Odd how the Remainers seem to be universally bad negotiators. You think because the EU says they won’t change the WA it means they won’t change the WA. Almost laughably naive.

      • Bob
        Posted December 9, 2018 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

        @Roy Grainger

        “Remainers seem to be universally bad negotiators.”

        This depends on whose behalf you believe they are negotiating.

  3. Grant
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 3:25 pm | Permalink

    The 39billion..who’s money John? ..not our money..since it will have to be borrowed from the bank and then paid back at some stage..so who’s money? The banks money

    • John Hatfield
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 7:23 pm | Permalink

      Tax-payers’

  4. Bryan Harris
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

    Well said JR – A shame you were not on the program.

  5. Geoff not Hoon
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 3:56 pm | Permalink

    Those of us that have read Yanis Varoufakis book on what happened to Greece at the hands of Brussels will know what answer Mrs. May will get should she again take the begging bowl back to Brussels. I fully accept that Britain is the 5th largest economy in the world and Greece is not but that matters little to the folk building another monolithic empire called the EU.

    • margaret howard
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 4:39 pm | Permalink

      He got the sack from his own government and the Greek people voted for a pro EU government. Sour grapes more likely.

      They realise they are lucky they were not kicked out after cheating their way into EU membership.

      And the following is an extract from the World Bank on Global Economy:

      In the “Doing Business” category Greece came 61st, just behind Tunisia

      For “Reliability” it came 155th, just behind Malawi

      For “Tax Collecting” it was behind the Solomon Islands

      But in other criteria it compared favourably to Tongo and Morocco

      • libertarian
        Posted December 9, 2018 at 8:50 pm | Permalink

        margaret howard

        So you want us to be governed by an organisation that allowed the Greeks to join in a currency union that they didn’t match the criteria for…. novel approach

        Likewise you now boast that the Greeks have a meaningless economy ( as do 19 other members of the EU) So please explain why we need to have the same rules, trade agreements and economic measures as the worlds 5th largest economy along with the 61st ?

        Anyone would think that you weren’t sure what you voted for

      • Fedupsoutherner
        Posted December 9, 2018 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

        Margaret. Do you receive a wage from the EU prone of your family?

      • Richard1
        Posted December 9, 2018 at 11:43 pm | Permalink

        This being the case why do you favour a political union with Greece?

        • hefner
          Posted December 11, 2018 at 2:19 pm | Permalink

          That might be a good deal given that some cool heads here have been “forecasting” an even worse Venezuela-type UK if Corbyn were ever to come to the premiership.

      • David Price
        Posted December 10, 2018 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

        @Margaret Howard
        Apparently Greece joined the EU using the same ploy as Italy did so will you be sneering at the Italians as well?

        However, Italy contributed more to the EU in 2016 than Spain and the Netherlands combined, so will you be sneering at Spain and the Netherlands as well? Perhaps Italy’s problem is not intrinsically Italian, or Greek or Spanish. Perhaps the problem is intrinsically euphilic.

        Quite simply the EU and it’s autocratic mindset is poisonous and the remedy for us and others is obvious – to leave it.

    • Graham Wood
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

      But then, she is quite familiar with national humiliations. The EU does not do negotiations, it only sets out its terms and conditions. Yanis and the Greek’s experience should have been heeded by the naive May long ago.

      • Maybot
        Posted December 10, 2018 at 10:14 am | Permalink

        More to the point we didn’t vote Leave in the referendum to give our government grounds for more negotiations. Cameron had tried that and put the result to the people who then voted it down.

        Since then from the Tories, whatever developments we get scratched record from them

        Ah. This gives us grounds for further negotiations with the EU.

        Ah. This gives us grounds for further negotiations with the EU.

        Ah. This gives us…

        • NickC
          Posted December 10, 2018 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

          Maybot: “More to the point we didn’t vote Leave in the referendum to give our government grounds for more negotiations. ” Absolutely!

    • Richard1
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

      I haven’t read it but others I know say the same. What was very clear from the case of Greece as Mr Varufakis often points out is it doesn’t negotiate with member states. It doesn’t think it has to. What is also therefore clear is you have to have a credible walk away. Varoufakis did this with his scrip currency but Tsipras et al lost their bottle. Tsipras now cuts a rather absurd figure. A supposed radical leftist who in practice has little influence over his country’s economic policies, being a protectorate of the EU. But having the personal consolation of being photographed laughing hugging and backslapping other EU leaders in those oleaginous staged photo ops they do.

  6. Mark B
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    Whatever happened to; “BREXIT means BREXIT.”

  7. Rien Huizer
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    Mr Redwood,
    You seem to wonder what the trading relationship with the EU will be after the transition period (and its likely extensions). I expect that the government will continue to negotiate well beyound the end of the proposed transition period and that during that time the Uk’s population will begin to realise that, indeed, staying in is the best deal available. Demogarphics will help. The current UK remaining life expectancy for 65 year olds (to pick a number, the median age of pro-brexit voters is probably around 56) so after the expected 5 years of transition (assuming a pro-brexit government wins the next election), roughly a quarter of those who voted (two years ago) for Brexit will has left the electoral rolls through natural attrition. Assuming no change in sentiment among bthe younger generation, I would expect that the Second Referendum, to be held in 2024, will show a 66-34 win for remain. All of the current players will have retired by then, the Conservative Party will be led by Hunt, Labour by Starmer and the new King (also the honorary Head of State of the European Federation) will have a seat in cabinet, making sure that the Conservative Labour Alliance (holding 98.2% of the seats, stays fresh. Prince George will be preparing for his education at the court of Emperor Vladimir I (Vladimirovich) . Unfortunately the Emperor’s daughter Mariya and her Dutch husband have not yet produced the offspring for an arranged marriage that could create (at last) an Empire stretching from the Aran Islands to the Kurilles.

    • Edward2
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

      This the remain myth that young people grow older but never alter their opinions.
      Decades of political and social research show that is not the case.
      If the EU continues to carry on spoiling the freedoms and living standards of millions of European citizens then more and more will become anti EU.

    • Mitchel
      Posted December 10, 2018 at 11:19 am | Permalink

      The Byzantine concept of “oikumene”-the reunification of the Christian world can only be achieved under the universal spiritual supremacy of the Eastern Emperor-the only legitimate source of power,certainly not the successors of the fake Holy Roman Emperors-so Vladimir I it will be!

      You’ll have to get the Bishop of Rome to bend a knee before the Patriarch of Moscow too!

    • David Price
      Posted December 10, 2018 at 7:34 pm | Permalink

      @Huizer – You think if you just wait a couple of years those who were around before we joined the EU will have died off and all will be well?

      You think age demographics will save the EU?

      Your project has serious systemic problems and the yellow vests aren’t being worn by pensioners.

      Think again.

  8. agricola
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

    If the EU see no value to their nation states in dealing amicably with us then reversion to WTO rules on trade is an off the shelf solution. 60% of our trade is conducted this way and it is in profit. The WA needs revisiting by brexiteers and the EU shluld be told whst they can have for half the leaving fee, no negotiation,an instruction. The second half of the payment only arises when a satisfactory treaty on trade and services is signed.
    If the EU find wto rules alarming then they can agree to maintain current trading arrangements until a new
    Treaty is signed. The same arrangements for payment and the WA should apply.
    We are in the position we are either because May is a catastrophically bad negotiator, or because she planned it as a remainer. Either way she has no place in any future dealings with the EU.

  9. Adam
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 5:01 pm | Permalink

    The Minister’s act of defending resists an attack.

    If the Withdrawal Agreement provided proper Brexit with merit, it would be widely welcomed, with its opponents lacking purpose of intent.

    In contrast, the Withdrawal Agreement is hostile to our nation. Ministers & others attempting to defend it are themselves attacking or country, tantamount to harming our citizens with their dangerous attitudes & instruments. The vile, faulty document should be exterminated to prevent such dangers.

  10. Christopher
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    Bury the turkey deal at the crossroads

    • Henry Rogers
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 8:42 pm | Permalink

      And drive a stake through its heart too!

  11. Denis Cooper
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

    Well, I think I understand the killer problems with the ‘Norway plus’ proposal a lot better than Amber Rudd, who ignorantly thinks that it is ‘plausible’. She could start here:

    http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/12/09/conservative-mps-have-to-tell-the-whips-this-morning-how-they-will-vote-bbc/#comment-979665

    “It’s strange how some people casually – arrogantly? – assume that the four EFTA countries would be perfectly happy to oblige us not only by providing a kind of temporary halfway house or staging post out of the EU, but also allowing us to derogate from one of the most fundamental principles of their organisation – that there can be no customs duties on the goods traded between them.”

  12. L Jones
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    They keep banging on about ”this is the ONLY deal” – it may be the only deal on the table, but it certainly isn’t the ONLY way to go – and we, the people, are not stupid. Most of us can even read.

    Tear it up into little bits and we’ll STILL be the UK, we’ll STILL be a player in the world, we’ll STILL be able to stand on our own feet, as we ever did (with even better balance without the EU dragging at our heels) and we’ll have our sovereignty. Trade and ‘deals’ we can manage for ourselves. I think then the shallow-minded remainders will see the difference between ”EU” and ”Europe”.

    For goodness’ sake – tear it up and let’s go.

  13. mancunius
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

    Yes, agree with all those points John, and the fact they need restating yet again at this point suggests the government has earplugs firmly stuffed in its lugholes.
    ‘Tweaking’, indeed! MPs should very firmly reject May’s entire ‘negotiated’ agreement – the EU should not be left in any doubt that this time their ‘tweaking’, ‘cajoling’, and ‘threatening’ skills will not be needed.
    The question of British input into the new ‘EU army’ should also be properly debated in Parliament.

  14. A.Sedgwick
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

    Also Dominic Grieve is concerned the CP may split, well maybe he and other Remoaners should have accepted the will of the people, and not treat Leave voters as yokels, who do not know what they voted for.

    • Steve
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 9:46 pm | Permalink

      A. Sedgwick

      “Also Dominic Grieve is concerned the CP may split”

      But what he doesn’t grasp is he fact that since none of them listened to us and threw May out, they won’t be getting any votes at the next election anyway even if they have split.

      The electorate still see them as tarred with the same brush regardless of what they call themselves.

      If the candidate was a conservative MP at any point, they’re contaminated simple as.

  15. Edwardm
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 6:01 pm | Permalink

    Mrs May is also wanting to tie our defence forces in with the EU, is another reason not to vote for the withdrawal bill.

  16. acorn
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 6:08 pm | Permalink

    My gang is trying to work out how many ERG – Rees-Mogglodytes will fold their bluffing Poker hands they have held for two years, and line up to wash El Presidente May’s feet come Tuesday. Any ideas JR?

    • Roy Grainger
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 7:47 pm | Permalink

      On Tuesday ? None. On the second vote on the modified WA, probably a lot.

  17. Lifelogic
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    Well said JR please keep up the good work. May’s deal is appalling, far worse than leaving under WTO rules) – even if the backstop were removed completely.

    Government should not worry, businesses can adapt very well especially if you get this bloated and hugely inept government out of the way and stop taxing it to death. Cut taxes, cut red tape and cut green crap energy prices. We will do just fine if you get the socialist dopes like May and Hammond out of the damn way. Leave and WTO and negotiate minor deals (from that position) where they are mutually beneficial – as and when needed.

  18. NickC
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

    JR, Well said. You might want to add: 5. The Leave vote should be properly implemented, as discussed and promised before the Referendum vote, by both sides.

  19. zorro
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 6:41 pm | Permalink

    An excellent summary of the madness of the T May inspired EU WA, and, in particular, how it seriously compromises the defence and intelligence security of the country, by Sir Richard Dearlove (ex-head MI6) and Major General Julian Thompson (former Falklands war veteran) – https://reaction.life/former-mi6-chief-tells-mps-vote-mays-agreement/

    zorro

    • Iago
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 9:06 pm | Permalink

      Sickening to read, Zorro.

    • Steve
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 9:31 pm | Permalink

      Zorro

      That’s because Theresa May is herself a serious security risk.

  20. Grant
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 7:31 pm | Permalink

    Have you seen Barry Gardiner on Ch4 brexit debate..pathetic..bloody awful waffle..if this is what awaits us from the government in waiting then Heaven help

  21. Maybot
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 8:26 pm | Permalink

    4 million voters no UKIP MPs.

    17.5 million voters no Brexit.

    Paris on fire Carbon Tax withdrawn.

    London on fire Poll Tax withdrawn.

    Democracy not working, is it !

    • Maybot
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 8:28 pm | Permalink

      May gifting power to Corbyn who nobody wants.

      DEMOCRACY NOT WORKING, IS IT !

    • Steve
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 9:27 pm | Permalink

      Maybot

      What they’re not telling you is that the french riots now have very little to do with fuel tax.

      It’s the writing on the wall signifying the start of the collapse of the EU. More of the same in one or two more countries and it’s game over for the EU.

      • Maybot
        Posted December 10, 2018 at 10:17 am | Permalink

        It is fuel tax.

        Can’t you see what they’re up to ?

        Create a conflation of contradictory demands from all areas of the political spectrum to neutralise the problem.

        Muddying of waters. A typical Eurofederalist tactic.

  22. Steve
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 9:07 pm | Permalink

    Meanwhile, Stephen Barclay said Theresa May could stay in post if MPs reject her Brexit plan.

    – Does he seriously think we will allow that ? Man’s a fool.

  23. Steve
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 9:17 pm | Permalink

    …and the ‘PM’ warns there is a very real risk of no brexit.

    So what’s she gonna do ? stop brexit personally if she can’t get her own way ?

    I don’t think so missus. Stamp your feet all you like, you don’t have the authority.

  24. Martin
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

    While I am on the other side of the EU debate I too find Mrs May’s agreement odd. (using your numbered points)

    1) Why is the the £39 Billion not broken down into items. I presume it is not all Mr Farage’s pension? It would have made sense for the UK to have stayed in some projects rather than pay £39 Billion for who knows what!

    2) These should be legally binding principles. Civil servants should be filling in the detail.

    3) and all to be done by December 2020 – optimistic.

    4) Mrs May should have made sure that UK ministers retained votes (qualified or vetoes as appropriate) in the Council of Ministers on all issues affecting the UK until the end of the transition.

  25. Iago
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 9:21 pm | Permalink

    May signs the global compact on migration tomorrow, or is it Tuesday? What a betrayal of our country and its people. Not in the Conservative Party election manifesto, not discussed in parliament.

    Very well said, by the way, thank you.

  26. Original Richard
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 9:55 pm | Permalink

    I have read that around 100 Conservative MPs have publicly said they will not vote for Mrs. May’s/the EU’s Withdrawal Agreement.

    I find it astounding that this possibly leaves up to 130 Conservative MPs so unconcerned for our democracy and sovereignty that they are prepared to vote for an agreement which leaves the UK in the EU without representation indefinitely.

    The damage to our country would be enormous as it would leave us totally exposed to the whims of an unelected and un-removable EU elite, especially since we could be made to follow rules not applying to the EU member states.

    • Original Richard
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 10:01 pm | Permalink

      Sorry, I meant 230 MPs who are prepareed to vote for the Agreement.

  27. Original Richard
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    If remainers believe that there will be a return to normal politics if the wishes of 17.4m people to properly leave the EU are thwarted by a Conservative PM and a remain Parliament, then they are mistaken.

    Particularly as more and more unpopular laws or taxes are imposed by unelected and un-removable EU elites.

    I can imagine the break-up of the UK to satisfy England’s wish to be out of the EU and Scotland’s wish to be separate from England and a member of the EU.

    Wales may stay with England as they voted to leave the EU and N.I., since they voted to remain, may decide to either remain in the EU as an “independent” country or become part of Ireland.

  28. rose
    Posted December 10, 2018 at 12:27 am | Permalink

    It makes a change to hear MPs being told they don’t know what they are voting for!

    This attitude, as demonstrated by the Minister today, also applies to the question of indiscriminate, out of control, mass immigration: if only it were properly explained to us, they keep saying, we would happily accept it.

  29. rose
    Posted December 10, 2018 at 12:30 am | Permalink

    Actually, I would say what is needed is just the dropping of the DWA. We don’t need one. It is the EU who need it as it gives them our money and our subservience.

  30. Karen Smith
    Posted December 10, 2018 at 5:03 am | Permalink

    The 2017 WTO agreement does not cover services. The UK economy is services based. The Minister is right, you have no alternative plan

    • Nigl
      Posted December 10, 2018 at 7:12 am | Permalink

      So why does every defender of this shoddy deal default to importing car parts etc. Thank you for pointing out the irrelevance of their comments and agreeing the WTO is a solution.

      As for services apart from many organisations incorporating in the EU do you really think the worlds services trade that is routed via London is going to suddenly stop?

      Actually one of the main reasons to leave is to have a choice over the regulation that pours out of Brussels and regular suggestions about transaction taxes etc that will force business to the US or Hong Kong

    • libertarian
      Posted December 10, 2018 at 12:44 pm | Permalink

      Karen Smith

      The EU does NOT have an internal market in services

      From the WTO website

      Ranging from architecture to voice-mail telecommunications and to space transport, services are the largest and most dynamic component of both developed and developing country economies. Their inclusion in the Uruguay Round of trade negotiations led to the General Agreement on Trade in Services (GATS). Since January 2000, they have become the subject of multilateral trade

  31. Ron Olden
    Posted December 10, 2018 at 6:14 am | Permalink

    This patronising rubbish from this Minister was ironic given that Ken Clarke once confirmed that he hadn’t read the Maastricht Treaty, but was, nevertheless, Gung Ho in favour of it, (and (by extension) must have thought that anyone who HAD read it, and didn’t like it, was a loony).

    I’ve read this document and I don’t like it. Incidentally, I also read the December 2017 agreed ‘Report’, the contents of which are appalling, especially on the ‘financial settlement’.

    It’s also rubbish for the Minister to claim that others have not put out their alternatives.

    A variety of different alternatives have been put out, some of them (like John Redwood’s), more detailed and specific on the future arrangements than the Government’s proposal itself.

    Some of the MPs who are voting against this deal want to stay in lock stock and barrel. How much more detail does the Minister need on their proposal.

    And things like ‘Norway Plus’ ‘Canada Plus’ etc are the basis for negotiations. They can’t possibly be specific until they’ve been discussed with the EU. But if they were, what emerged at the end would be far more specific than anything the Government’s come up with.

    Whether they’d be better or more desirable however is another matter.

    The Minister however is correct about the ‘backstop’.

    ‘Tweaking’ it, so that it addresses our concerns might not attract John Redwood to vote for the Deal but a sizeable number of MPs on both sides of the House have have claimed that it’s the ‘backstop’ which is decisive in their opposition to it.

    It might well be that the DUP might also change sides if their concerns about the ‘backstop’ were addressed.

    My worry, of course, is that declining the deal might eventually result in a worse outcome than not agreeing it.

  32. Nigl
    Posted December 10, 2018 at 7:21 am | Permalink

    Every time Ministers insult your/our intelligence suggesting we don’t know what we are voting for it highlights the paucity of theirs.

    Their total failure to respond/rebut on the detail indicates they either don’t know it or can’t.

  33. Den
    Posted December 10, 2018 at 10:18 am | Permalink

    Furthermore, the Minister has insulted not only his colleagues in Parliament but also the Attorney General whose job it was to review such detail. He concluded the same as the hundreds of MPs from both sides of the House. The Minister should understand that it is the Government who are completely out of step with the rest and must now pay heed to the opportunities already offered as a solution.
    The Government, including the ‘Minister’ all there under a controlling Remainer PM themselves are those that have not thought through the implications of their give-away and the horrors it will bring upon the citizens of this country, should it be ever accepted.

  34. BOF
    Posted December 10, 2018 at 11:36 am | Permalink

    I am sure the people who wrote it do understand it. It achieves their fanatical europhile purpose of keeping the UK in perpetual vassalage to the EU. What is not clear is why so many MP’s actually do back it. Should we be questioning their commitment to the UK and its people?

  35. Stred
    Posted December 10, 2018 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    It looks like the turkey is turning chicken, along with her gutless Europhile supporters.

  36. Sir Joe Soap
    Posted December 10, 2018 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

    There once was a lady from May den head,
    Who couldn’t agree with the party she led,
    One day she said this, next day she said that,
    Whatever she said, it was really all tat,
    And you never could believe a word she said.

  37. The PrangWizard
    Posted December 10, 2018 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

    My observation here is that Mr Redwood, in saying that he assumes the Minister has been asked ‘to take this line’, suggests that he knows the Minister does not believe what he is saying, and/or is unable to think for himself at all, and speaks whatever is fed to him the whole time. That can’t possibly be the case, with Ministers surely! Who feeds him lines, the PM perhaps?

    You can see how cynical and rebellious we are becoming under this inept, treacherous and deaf and blind PM who ought to have been removed months ago, but spineless Tories are ‘frit’ or are just as traitorous as she.

  38. MikeP
    Posted December 10, 2018 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    It angers me greatly that Theresa May expects “both sides of the House to compromise” over the deal to Leave the EU. Where was the compromise over the AV Referendum, the Welsh Assembly Referendum? The Scottish Independence Referendum? Referenda are necessarily conducted on a simple question, usually a binary Yes/No or similar. No compromise should be necessary or offered to the Remainers in Parliament, for whom this is much more about saving face and a dislike of being on the losing side than a love of the EU. This is an appalling affront to voters who largely voted to Leave in their constituencies.

  39. a-tracy
    Posted December 13, 2018 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

    Some Americans say they don’t understand why we sought our independence from the European Parliament and ECJ and their taxes and charges and control of our agriculture, fishing, manufacturing allowances etc. encouraging our businesses to resite operations, yet celebrate their own every year.

    The Leave team need to start all talking and rejecting the nasty smears against people wanting their independence and sovereignty back. It is just not acceptable, being called ‘the stupids’ a ‘rabid pack’ and ‘brextremists’ it’s frankly incitement and bigoted, who is more extreme and who is behaving reasonable? The leave majority who have been very restrained or the anti-brexit extremists that think it is just fine and dandy to verbally assault more than half the people bothered enough to vote.

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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