It is Mrs May’s Agreement that would create the uncertainty

Mrs May’s surrender Agreement is not a deal. It is a requirement for us to enter months and months of possibly fruitless talks, with the UK’s future on hold and uncertainty maximised. Just leaving on 29 March as she originally promised would end the uncertainty and allow us to get on with our lives freed of all this argument and needless scare stories.

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48 Comments

  1. Henry Spark
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 7:51 am | Permalink

    Allow me to agree. We should either leave the EU with no deal or we should stay in it. Leaving on Mrs May’s terms is humiliation

    • Jagman84
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

      Remain, in its present form, will no longer exist. As it stands, the Commission have a ‘deal’ beyond their wildest dreams. As Mark B suggested in an earlier topic today, it does look as if they wrote it, unaided by May and Robbins. Do you think for one moment that they will allow us to retreat back from that, to our current T&Cs? Would you?

    • davies
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

      Agreed to a point. I can’t see how we have a future in that organisation but I would go for temporarily staying as full members rather than the WA surrender approach.

    • forthurst
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

      That was what was on the Referendum ballot paper. When I voted to leave I fully understood that continuing frictionless free trade with a market distorting cartel would be unachievable and undesirable and that as a consequence the pattern of our external trade would continue to be towards the Rest of the World and away from the EU on an accelerating basis.

      It has been abundantly clear for some considerable time that the EU is some kind of ‘post-democratic’ monstrosity conceived and executed by some wholly evil and highly unrepresentative people.

  2. Know-Dice
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 8:09 am | Permalink

    Does May not learn anything from the run up to the 2016 Referendum?
    The British people will call her bluff on her threats. Any MP that doesn’t listen to their constituents will not be reelected at the next General Election

    • Hope
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 10:44 am | Permalink

      It is not months and months. The 21 month proposal by May is a minimum. There is no legal compelling argument for the EU under good faith to agree or sign a trade agreement. It is only bound to look at the proposal. Nothing could ever be legally argued in bad faith for not agreeing. It is possibly years and years.

      May’s plan is to keep the UK in the EU by another treaty, an accession treaty if you like, so the UK does not stray too far to be able not to return or become too competitive that it would not want to. Come on, wake up

  3. Bryan Harris
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 8:23 am | Permalink

    If this is so clear to us, why is May pursuing it so actively – This is bordering not just on treason, but on something much worse…

    • jerry
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 11:05 am | Permalink

      @Bryan Harris; I see no Treason, never mind anything worse. I see a lot of ignorance, arrogance, incompetence, inexperience and much duplicity [1]. TM is acting within our democratic parliamentary system, within her powers as PM, thus there is no, and can not be any “Treason”.

      [1] and many plebs and politicos are as guilty of the first two as TM is her self

      • Bryan Harris
        Posted December 9, 2018 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

        When a PM lies and uses deceit to get her way, then that is treason against the people of the UK

        • jerry
          Posted December 9, 2018 at 7:21 pm | Permalink

          @Bryan Harris; No it is not. Lies and deceit are merely a (serious) contempt of parliament, legally it is neither Treasonous nor Treachery.

          • Bryan Harris
            Posted December 10, 2018 at 8:17 am | Permalink

            @Jerry
            Treason is defined in several ways, including ‘Duplicity’, ‘disloyalty and ‘betrayal’

            Please do not tell me that May has been perfectly honest with the British people, and indeed that she has not led us into a trap with the EU

          • jerry
            Posted December 10, 2018 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

            @Bryan Harris; You do not have a first clue as to what amounts to Treason in current UK law.

            You also seem to think Treason is proven by asking a Complex Question of someone and then not getting the answer you wanted… What is more, had TM been Treasonous, all MPs (Brexiteers included) must also be guilty, due to being complicit in the act…

            I also never said that TM had been “perfectly honest”, in fact I said the exact opposite! Did you actually read my comment before getting on your high horse again?

      • L Jones
        Posted December 9, 2018 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

        But these ”plebs” and ”politicos” as you call them are not the elected representatives of our country – elected and PAID FOR by us. WE are the plebs and can say what we wish – and you are one of us too, Jerry. Or do you put yourself in a higher class?

  4. Alan Jutson
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 8:28 am | Permalink

    Spot on, just gives us more uncertainty as talks continue for many more years, until we get to the so called next cliff edge, and yet another extension request.

    In the meantime we pay even more money into the system.

    Implementation period it certainly is not, we do not even have a fixed end date !

  5. Peter
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 8:31 am | Permalink

    Quite. Hopefully it will be voted down. The closer it gets the more likely that seems unless she can pull a rabbit out of a hat at the last minute.

  6. Lifelogic
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 8:35 am | Permalink

    Indeed, and should we signed her surrender agreement we would have no negotiating strength left. Surely even Appeaser May and tax to death Hammond can be made to understand this. Far better to negotiate from a WTO leave position with no fee paid.

  7. Everhopeful
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 8:53 am | Permalink

    Hope it is ok to put a link. Tried to explain article but rather complex.

    Was really shocked to read it!! If it is true then MSM is a great deal worse than suspected!

    https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/mays-dangerous-deal-and-a-warning-the-media-has-ignored/?utm_source=TCW+Daily+Email&utm_campaign=a3ce073cbc-RSS_DAILY_EMAIL&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_a63cca1cc5-a3ce073cbc-556073241

    • Know-Dice
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 10:47 am | Permalink

      The Daily Mail has done a “volte face” with the new editor/owner? so, should not be taken as a serious publication [even if it was in the past].

      • Everhopeful
        Posted December 10, 2018 at 12:19 am | Permalink

        Not sure if you are replying to me. The article is not from the Daily Mail. It is an article from The Conservative Woman ( a website..don’t think it is anything to do with the DM). Why don’t you have a look..it is truly shocking re the “ Deal”.

  8. George Brooks
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 8:54 am | Permalink

    The PM is handing the tools to the EU to cripple this country. It is criminal and she has absolutely no mandate to do so.

    I voted to leave because the EU will go bust in the not too distant future and we are under no obligation to prop it up for a few more years.

    We must get out as you propose JR before we are sucked down this vortex.

    • The Narrative
      Posted December 10, 2018 at 8:34 pm | Permalink

      This is the darkest moment in British history.

  9. A.Sedgwick
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 8:58 am | Permalink

    Absolutely, if we Leave on WTO rules 29/03/19 we are in control of our own destiny, her way is to rely on the “goodwill” of 27 states in a Union that is authoritarian, Napoleonic and unbending. May has become the most dangerous post war PM in my view.

  10. Sir Joe Soap
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 9:03 am | Permalink

    Yes this is a gateway to a bottomless pit of fruitless talks, while the UK taxpayer pays through the nose. Leave means all the fake scares will soon be behind us!

  11. Peter Miller
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 9:15 am | Permalink

    In my long business career, I have never come across anyone quite as inept as Mrs May in negotiating deals.

    I would have loved to have had her on the opposite side of the negotiating table.

    M. Barnier and the EU politburo must have been amazed as she threw away all her bargaining chips upfront and went into every meeting a white flag.

    • Iain Moore
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 10:01 am | Permalink

      As could be seen when the agreement was signed. All the EU nations heaped praise on May, when your opponents do that you know you have failed, and Barnier couldn’t stop himself from laughing.

    • Oxiana321
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 11:21 am | Permalink

      Ineptness or deliberate wrecking tactics?

    • jerry
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 11:24 am | Permalink

      @Peter Miller; Not only that, but holding a mirror up behind the backs of her negotiating team as they sit at the table, even OR appears to have become critical of TM if the reports are true!

    • A.Sedgwick
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

      Ditto

    • Lendo
      Posted December 10, 2018 at 4:59 am | Permalink

      Rubbish. This is the best deal anyone could have extracted. Johnson, ReesMogg, Lilley etc lied during the campaign about how the EU would fold and give us a great deal and about how the US, India, Australia etc would offer us a quick trade deal, and they are lying now when they say we would win if we just negotiated a bit harder. No. Whoever ijs in charge, the UK is ruined by this Brexit madness

      • Edward2
        Posted December 10, 2018 at 8:15 am | Permalink

        We haven’t negotiated.
        We have meekly surrendered.

      • libertarian
        Posted December 10, 2018 at 10:13 am | Permalink

        Lendo

        Shame you dont actually bother to research anything before spouting.

        The EU has always said they won’t negotiate a FTA until we’ve left. US, India, Singapore and NZ have ALL said they are ready to go with a UK FTA the day after March 29th

        Once we’ve left then we will still how tough the EU is in dealing with their second biggest customer

    • Mockbeggar
      Posted December 10, 2018 at 11:58 am | Permalink

      I quite agree. Mrs May has mismanaged her negotiating hand from the word go. She originally said that ‘No deal is better than a bad deal.’ She should have made that plain by implementing publicly all measures in preparation for a ‘no deal’ so that Barnier and co were perfectly aware that she meant what she said. Then, perhaps, they might have been prepared to negotiate instead of simply laying down the terms of this so-called agreement.
      As it was she simply threw away her strongest card at the outset.

  12. Maybot
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 9:24 am | Permalink

    Indeed. It has been people forcing us to try to stay in the EU which has caused difficulty and uncertainty.

  13. Caterpillar
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 9:29 am | Permalink

    The uncertainty brought on by the Remainers and their PM has two parts (i) lack of clarity and preparation for leaving and (ii) fear of Corbyn. The PM should have been clear that leave meant leave and prepared the UK to leave on WTO, she could also have united the country and followed through on her early promise not to be London/SE centric. Of course Cameron should have got the narrative right from the beginning, and of course Gove should not have stabbed Boris in the back. The prer-referendum explanation should have been,

    The Govt is holding a referendum to seek the electorate’s advice on leaving the EU or remaining within and recognising PM Cameron’s agreement. There is no middle compromise position, there are advantages and disadvantages to staying in or leaving, but eating olives and ice cream at the same time is worse than either alone.
    The reason for the referendum is that there is no obvious majority either way in the UK as there are many factors that affect different people in different ways. The decision can only be made by the wisdom of the crowd if the probability of each person knowing the best answer is greater than 0.5, the Govt believes that 18 is old enough to have sufficient experience and maturity for this. For such a decision where the probability is close to 0.5 a large crowd is needed that together has experience of all the issues, therefore a referendum of all the UK together is the appropriate approach.
    It should be clear whether the UK decides to remain or leave that some individuals, businesses and regions will benefit and some will lose out, if this were not the case there would probably be no need for a referendum, but once the referendum is over and a result is known it is not the case that one side has won and another lost. No one wins or loses the referendum itself, everyone contributes their knowledge to, together, inform the government of the best advice. Once the Govt has received the advice it will then follow it.

    Postreferendum. Having received the advice of the electorate the Govt will make immediate preparations to leave the EU, so that businesses will know the new environment in which they will be operating in two year’s time. There will be media stories that such and such will be worse, there will be stories that such and such will be better, the UK must not allow this to divide us, we knew it was complex before the referendum which is why it was held.

    Sadly Cameron’s Govt did not communicate that the referendum was a procedure to get the best advice (it was an error for Cameron to take a position) and tragically May has not followed the advice.

  14. eeyore
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 9:48 am | Permalink

    Even now Mrs May is announcing to the world that rejection of her deal takes us into “uncharted waters”. This is tantamount to telling the EU “We are lost. We cannot defend ourselves. We have no weapons. We are at your mercy.”

    Whose side is she on?

    There is much talk of a confidence motion this week. We have now moved far beyond party politics. The May government is not just incompetent in the highest degree but a serious national danger. No MP of any party should support her.

  15. Iain Moore
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 9:57 am | Permalink

    Mrs May is not a leader, and she certainly isn’t a negotiator for all she has done on Brexit is to capitulate to the EU’s demands or kick the can down the road . It throws a very bad light on Conservative MPs who have failed to get rid of her, and in not doing so is costing our country dear , and now left us with very little time to sort anything out. If her surrender agreement is voted down what then? She can’t be trusted to renegotiate the disaster she has come up with, and if we go to No Deal, she isn’t the leader to take our country through it.

  16. miami.mode
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 10:21 am | Permalink

    Oh the irony. Mrs May says she has goose in lieu of turkey for Christmas, but hers may be cooked earlier than she thinks.

  17. agricola
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 11:06 am | Permalink

    She has to go. When she does we want brexit leadership. This morning Boris made the first only positive sense between May’s constant interuptions. He advocated WA minus backstop. Half payment of the £39 billion. Second half payment on completion of a trade deal. As I interpreted it, an intelligent technical discusion on how to conduct tbe Irish border. Someone at last who is in line with my thinking as opposed to the atrophied defeatism that we hear from most of our appologist parliamentarians.

  18. zorro
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

    As I and others have said previously, all these people actively conspiring to undermine the leave vote all have a COMMON PURPOSE to keep us subservient to a globalist anti-democratic empire wannabe!

    zorro

  19. Adam
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

    Just Leave & achieve a clean break.
    We are then free to choose what we want from what both the EU & the rest of the world have to offer in their own interests.
    Building on a clear fresh new dawn is preferable to cobbling together unwanted odd parts of a clumsy muddle.
    Some folk mistakenly buy a bad product, but then keep it & use it awkwardly, solely to help justify their wasted expense.
    Extending the mistake is not a solution. Dump it & go for better, now.

  20. agricola
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    Correction. Marr’s not May’s.

  21. ian
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 12:53 pm | Permalink

    We do God work.

  22. davies
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    To me everything points to the UK being held “ransom” deliberately and trapped in a transition arrahgement with no forthcoming solutions to exit because its too hard followed by another referendum with a worn down UK electorate voting to go back in.

    I suspect however other events in the Eurozone will take the decision to go back in or not out of our hands given the sheer numbers of scenarios which could end up pushing Italy out of the Euro with the consequences that follow – am I right? Who knows, time will tell.

    I saw a video this morning from a media outlet showing the yellow vest protestors descneding on the EU Parliament yesterday – not on the BBC of course. It looks like even the core Europeans are starting to wake up to the real agendas behind this project and their day of reckoning may be sooner than we think.

    I can also see that the UK doesn’t want to be seen to be at fault for this thing going pear shaped as well, so we need to keep our cool and not do anything to stir things up.

    I guess the EU fanatics will rue the day they rejected the Dutch Prime Minister’s advice of sticking to only doing what they must and do it better rather than trying to take control of everything.

  23. agricola
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    Labour have just exposed their contempt for all those 17.4 million who voted leave. In advocating another referendum they say we should vote:-
    1. To accept May’s toxic deal which on the Attorney General’s judgement could have us in the EU for ever.

    2. Vote to remain.

    Who do these power hungry snake oil salesmen think they are. In the meantime our duplicitous PM tells us” Vote for the WA or get tbe marxist Corbyn.” There are many options open to us.It is just a matter of engaging brain before falling for all the political propaganda.

  24. Original Richard
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

    Mrs. May’s “Brexit means Brexit” after 2 years of bullying by and threats from the EU and its UK collaborators has changed to “remain indefinitely without voting rights or remain”.

  25. miami.mode
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

    We used to have a salesman who cared deeply for the company, was hard working, diligent, and constantly visiting potential customers. Unfortunately he was simply no good at the job and if we had persisted with him we would have been in danger of going out of business due to lack of orders.

    Mrs May seems to be in a similar category.

  26. Remington Norman
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

    John, why are we still hearing – as a few moments ago on the BBC news:

    1. It’s a good deal.
    2. It’s the only deal available.

    If MPs really believe this, then the country is in very poor hands.

  27. Ron Olden
    Posted December 10, 2018 at 5:43 am | Permalink

    The Deal DOES involve us leaving on March 29th.

    But it replaces membership with something which might or might not be good idea. I think its’ bad idea.

    But John Redwood needs to consider whether voting down this Deal will result in us remaining in indefinitely .

    We know what he wants. But is he going about it the right way to get it or will he end up with something even worse than the Deal?

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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