Trade wars?

Trade is always  vulnerable to politics. Today we see a US/China  trade dispute on a grand scale, as the US responds to the growing strategic and military challenge of the emerging superpower. Pakistan  and India are in bitter dispute over Kashmir with threats to the trade from both sides of their troubled border. Japan and Korea have dismantled their framework of mutual trade preference and are imposing barriers on some items. The row resumed over Korean claims for war reparations.  Many developing countries charge high tariffs on imports with special dispensations from WTO rules to allow this. The US has  imposed sanctions on Iran which the EU has in effect to go along with. The UK refuses to sell various countries weapons and security machinery on strategic and moral grounds. Most advanced countries place security restrictions on the sale of certain technology products and services.

 

The main trend worldwide is for neighbouring countries to impose trade restrictions on each other for  wider political reasons. In the Middle East trade is disrupted as part of the wider Sunni Shia conflicts. Mr Trump threatened tariffs against Mexico to get better border policing on the Mexican side of the border. He seeks to stop the illegal drugs trade from South America and looks for  trade remedies. Japan have  difficult relations with its neighbour China. China, Pakistan and India have disrupted trade around their common borders in Kashmir. These common rows and anti trade policies are always with us, but the strength of the WTO trading framework means world trade continues to grow and stays at high levels.

Despite these common problems the bulk of our trade in or out of the  EU will be tariff free with relatively easy passage across borders. There are no current difficulties from government restrictions on the UK importing a large number of components, food and pharmaceuticals from non EU countries. The WTO Facilitation of Trade Agreement coupled with the enthusiasm of exporters to sell to us will ensure plenty of  imports  to meet our needs after 31 October with or with an EU Agreement. The UK so far has announced a major reduction in tariffs once we are out making it cheaper and easier to import from non EU places, and no dearer to import from EU.

 

We need to remember as well that the overwhelming majority of our trade is domestic. There is more  scope for growing UK businesses and farms to supply our domestic market more, and this may  well happen once we leave  the EU and can settle our own affairs. Our time in the EU has seen loss of home market share in a number of crucial areas thanks to EU regulations and EU economic  policies. Our early years in the EEC were  particularly  damaging with substantial de industrialisation. The ERM debacle hit our growth rate badly. Our growth rate has been slower in the single market than before we joined.

 

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349 Comments

  1. margaret
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 5:10 am | Permalink

    There are apparently signs of a world wide recession and an expected volatility of markets. Competition is good?

    • oldtimer
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:14 am | Permalink

      Yes, competition is good. It helps provide more choice and better value over time.

      • jerry
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:44 am | Permalink

        @oldtimer; Does ‘Competition’ provide more choice, or just more ways to buy the same thing, and what is the better value, a smart phone costing £150 or one coasting £500, given both do the same essential thing(s). One is functional, the other fashionable I suppose…

        By your rational BLMC/BL should have been a roaring success in the 1970s!

        • Bob
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

          @Jerry

          “Does ‘Competition’ provide more choice,”

          When the Post Office had a monopoly on telephones, you had to apply for a phone line and then wait until they decided to install it, usually just inside your front door.

          No we have phone companies falling over themselves to offer better deals and better services.

          So yes.

          • jerry
            Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:01 pm | Permalink

            @Bob; First paragraph is utter nonsense, When the private provider Telecoms engineer who came to install my FTTC broadband I had to argue with him to move the incoming Master unit some six feet, even though doing so removed almost all risk of damage to their equipment – fortunately I had read all the small print in the contract… By contrast, back in the 1970s when we had a new line installed, once the GPO had received the order (admittedly a business one, but in a private home), it was installed within the week and the engineer ran wires and installed the phones just were WE wanted and needed them, no argument…

            As for choice, you should actually research what GPO Telephones could have offered back in the 1960s 7 70s had the politicos allowed. The problem wasn’t being State owned, it was being run by the State, management being overruled by politicos in other words!

            But my point wasn’t about public vs. private. Do we really need 50 different styles of smart-phones, for example, all doing and looking much the same or do we need better smarter smart-phones doing things that no other smart-phone currently does, which after all was the starting point of a certain mobile phone that has become nothing but a fashion icon now.

          • Bob
            Posted August 18, 2019 at 7:52 pm | Permalink

            @Jerry,
            People who were around at the time of the GPO will remember the truth about the level of service. Your love of state monopolies seems seems to have affected your memory.

            BT is still suffering from the old monopolistic attitudes.

        • oldtimer
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

          The most effective competition is provided by the substitute product. That provides the same or similar function but in a wholly different way. The mobile phone is a good example, displacing fixed line phones. Along the way it also helped kill off conventional film cameras, popularising digital cameras. Amazon is another notable example of a new business model. Way back Dell made its fortune by adopting the direct sale model, putting many middleman dealers out of business. As for BLMC that was an ill-conceived merger promoted by the Wilson government. The right solution for the UK owned motor industry of the time was competition and survival of the fittest, not putting all those businesses in one big heap and hoping it would turn all right on the night.

          • jerry
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 8:09 am | Permalink

            @Oldtimer; Both digital still and video cameras were around long before the multi-tasking mobile phone!

            Internet shopping is most certainly NOT good for the customer, in the long term, and it holds many of the same problems that old style catalogue shopping did.

            You totally missed my point regarding BLMC/BL, most likely because you only know the myths and not the facts, their biggest problem was “competition” within their own business, the BLMC/BL customer had plenty of choice [1], this was acknowledged in 1970 but not truly dealt with until the Edwards era rationalisation of the product range 10 years later.

            Build/reliability quality is often due to factory or design variables, at the time, offerings from the Continent and Japan could be just as bad.

            [1] the same problems befell the Roots group too

        • libertarian
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:51 pm | Permalink

          Jerry

          Oh dear

          Competition provides more choice, more price points, innovation and a host of other benefits

          Travel for instance

          Where choice exists

          Cars, the cost of car journeys has fallen considerably

          Flights, the costs of flights has fallen considerably

          Rail ( no competition) the cost has risen enormously

          • jerry
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 6:04 am | Permalink

            @Walter; The consumer is not better provided for if the only choice we have is 10,000 widgets all doing exactly the same thing, often at much the same price point.

            I did not condemn competition, I condemned the “sheeple” type of development & marketing that we now have for so many products – all doing the same thing, all looking much the same, the only variable being what ever ‘Look’ is in fashion. Is that to subtle for you to grasp perhaps?

            Do you simply choose your new car based on how many wheels it has and what the 0-60mph time is, after all there is plenty of choice if you do, or do you look deeper into the spec, the engine, type of transmission, type of trim, perhaps heated seats is important to you, or having a folding hardtop roof – most cars sales still thrive on innovation even if -for their class- they do all have 4 wheels, very similar safety levels and 0-60mph times. But then automotive R&D is very expensive…

            BTW, there is competition in rail services, at least at the franchising stage, and that is why the prices have risen for unregulated fares. The problem with the rail industry for the average commuter/traveller is there is often no realistic alternative, and the TOCs know it.

          • libertarian
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

            Jerry

            Oh do give in with your purile pedantic nonsense.

            Youve completely contradicted your own argument ( not for the first time ) .

            If every product is identical one would wonder …………. how new product innovations actually happen . Heres a clue Jerry , someone develops a slightly different option on a product that the market likes, then the other product manufacturers need to react by at least offering similar , then someone develops something new. Thats why my dear Jerry we now have Apple and Samsung smartphones and not still all running around with motorola Dynatak 8000’s . Its why the worlds leading phone maker in the 90’s Nokia now no longer make phones as they failed to innovate when the smartphone arrived The fact that you think all phones are the same is telling. There are loads of differences in camera, memory, battery life , headphone jacks, etc etc … maybe its too subtle for you Jerry

            Thats why car manufacturers offer differing options on their products which otherwise are all the same box with 4 wheels

            Wow Jerry discovers than no realistic alternative MEANS theres no competing service to bring down fares

          • jerry
            Posted August 17, 2019 at 7:54 am | Permalink

            @Walter; “someone develops a slightly different option on a product that the market likes, then the other product manufacturers need to react by at least offering similar , then someone develops something new. “

            But that’s MY argument! Constant product innovation, which is good for the consumer but very expensive for business, vs, product duplication, which is neither, and in the long run can cripple any company. The floors of the NYSE, MSE and LSE are littered with such examples.

            Competition should provide better, not just the same or similar, problem is, the latter is all to common now, because far to many, including yourself I suspect, see “duplication” as competition -not improvement or blue-sky innovation.

            I would hope, post Brexit, there will be tax incentives to fund more UK based R&D (along with UK manufacturing were feasible), because that is the real competitive retail market.

          • libertarian
            Posted August 17, 2019 at 11:57 am | Permalink

            Jerry Cholmondeley-Warner

            R& D tax credits have been available for years.

            ps Internet shopping IS MOST DEFINITLY good for the customer. From my armchair I can order the exact product , colour , size price etc and have it delivered the next day .

            As opposed to getting in a car driving to a high st, high parking fees if I can find a car park then finding the shop doesn’t have my size, colour, price, spec.

            You can suspect what you like but as usual you’d be wrong.

            My main business I pioneered when everyone in my market segment was doing something different . Took me 4 years to make my first sale. After 20 years I now have a multimillion business.

            Loads of competitors copied me after that ( that had to because the old model died) some of them have gone on to add new innovations, which means I have to either copy or leapfrog . The thing is Jerry that the bottom line is you HAVE to at least copy or else you die. Innovation isn’t something that just happens . Sometimes there is no scope to innovate until some other technology comes along.

            I have just received an R&D tax credit for a new AI software product we’ve developed , its easily reverse engineered now we’ve made it available. Our competitors will have similar offerings within months

            You are as usual entirely wrong about me too products. Its the widespread availability and mass market price reductions of Me Too products that builds big market segments and facilitates the environment to innovate

            pps I part own a drug research business too and we are the only company in Europe doing what we do. So much innovation is now undertaken by small, lean business

            pps Some people prefer the taste of coke to pepsi

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:50 am | Permalink

        It is good in a properly regulated and enforced market.

        Ultimately though, problems like – it remains to be seen – Grenfell Tower, and perhaps the dam at Whaley Bridge can arise, when unprincipled operators find ways of undercutting their competitors in harmful ways, either because there are no rules to stop them, or because they know that those rules are not likely to be enforced.

        • Robert mcdonald
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 4:06 pm | Permalink

          Grenfell Tower is more about incompetent bureaucrats than industrial producers. If the procurement process is inept the product will be unsuitable for purpose, and yes potentially dangerous. Whaley Bridge is the result of out of date construction works and yet again, inadequate engineering inspection by the bureaucrats involved.

        • agricola
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

          Cheltenham council handed over the running of the local lido because under their stewardship it was bankcrupt. A charity took it over and got it back on its financial feet. Along come the council now demanding a cut of the income from entry fees and car park fees. Enough of a kick back to put the lido in financial risk of closing. Who are the council in Cheltenham. None other than our old friends the Illiberal Dumocrats. They want this money to subsurdise their financial shortcomings in the areas they still control. I cannot think of a better example of people running things better than politicians . The first a group of concerned local citizens, the second a mafiosa running a protection racket.

        • NickC
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:10 pm | Permalink

          Martin, So, like Volkswagen (Group)** in the EU then? **And other EU car firms such as Renault, Mercedes and Fiat.

          • Martin in Cardiff
            Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:55 pm | Permalink

            Yes. Nations are responsible for the enforcement. There is no European Union body to do this. There are laws against all crimes, and despite the police, they still happen. There will never be 100% compliance.

            Remember that slaughterhouse in Todmorden, which sold horse meat as beef?

        • libertarian
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:52 pm | Permalink

          Martin in Cardiff

          Er poor choice, both the things you mention are highly regulated .

          • Martin in Cardiff
            Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

            But not enforced, clearly then.

          • libertarian
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

            Martin in Cardiff

            So pointless having regulations that aren’t enforced . See the EU and car emissions for details

      • James1
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:12 am | Permalink

        I would rather rely upon competition between suppliers than the altruism of politicians

    • formula57
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:45 am | Permalink

      The experience of the U.S. following the Tariff Act of 1930 ( Smoot-Hawley) suggests the tariff alternative is unwise.

      • Mitchel
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 10:24 am | Permalink

        Off topic but for the benefit of those on here who like to insist that the Iranian tanker,Grace I, was seized by the Gibraltarian authorities on behalf of the EU rather than the US,it has just been reported(Telegraph)that:”The Gibraltarian authorities were preparing to free the Grace I which was detained in July,but the US Department of Justice is now asking them to continue holding the ship.”

    • Hope
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:08 am | Permalink

      JR, off topic I read Wollaston has joined Lib Dumbs. How is it right she stays in her job against what her constituents voted for? Radical change required. This is her third party in a year! She doesn’t not have any principles, values or morals. This is why there is no trust in MP like her.

      • Shirley
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:40 am | Permalink

        There should be a change in the rules, so that any MP changing party mid term automatically triggers a bi-election. If they have done a good job and still have the support of their constituents then they have nothing to fear. The reality that NONE of the anti-democratic betrayers have submitted themselves to a bi-election speaks volumes.

      • jerry
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:54 am | Permalink

        @Hope; We do not elect parties, never mind a PM, we elect Commoners to parliament. The question should actually be – have the personal/party policies changed since the last GE?

        I have no idea what personal manifesto Wollaston stood on (she not being my MP) but it is quite possible that she is still reflecting the personal and party polices the majority of her constituents voted for!

        Should there be a by-election, perhaps, just to make the change official, she most certainly should not simply be replaced PR List style with another…

        • NickC
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:00 pm | Permalink

          Jerry, Guido Fawkes has a video clip of Sarah Wollaston at a 2017 hustings plainly accepting the Referendum result, and saying that supporting a second referendum is a direct incentive for us to get the worst possible deal. Looks to me like she has defrauded her 54% Leave constituents.

          • jerry
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 6:10 am | Permalink

            @NickC; If that is the case then yes there should be a by-election, but don’t count on the parliamentary numbers changing when it comes to how they vote.

        • Original Richard
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:16 pm | Permalink

          jerry : “I have no idea what personal manifesto Wollaston stood on (she not being my MP) but it is quite possible that she is still reflecting the personal and party polices the majority of her constituents voted for!”

          I would suggest you visit the Guido Fawkes website and read the article titled “Sarah Wollaston’s Shameless Hypocrisy”

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:54 am | Permalink

        It is a time-honoured convention, that as Edmund Burke said, an MP is a representative but not a delegate.

        Therefore, if in his or her judgement, the constituents are best served by crossing the floor, then that is in keeping with that convention.

        • Mitchel
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

          Robert Michels Iron Law of Oligarchy is a far better guide to organizational behaviour than anything Burke might have said or written.

        • mancunius
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

          This lordly dictum by a solitary 18th century MP is merely an excuse for personal whim: it has no constitutional weight and certainly no justification in 21st-century Britain, where candidates are voted for on the basis of the party manifestos they are bound by.

          The Totnes MP’s ‘judgement’ was that she judged it opportune to support leaving the EU at the beginning of the 2016 referendum campaign, then campaigned to remain, and now judges it opportune to defy the democratic national majority result and try to overturn it.
          Her constituents voted 54% to leave the EU – as in the rest of Devon.

          She stood for parliament on a party manifesto to leave the EU by 31st March 2019. She has done all she could in parliament to prevent it.

          • Martin in Cardiff
            Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:18 pm | Permalink

            It’s more than a dictum, it is supported by many incidences of practice.

            Kate Hoey is from the most Remain-voting constituency in the country. Personally I think that she should cross the floor and join the ERG.

            She would be out at the next General Election. There would be no need for a by-election.

            The fact that there is not one automatically is some safeguard against governments acting precipitously in a totally egregious manner, as we are seeing now. MPs should be free to desert such disgrace, according to their conscience, without immediate repercussions.

          • Fred H
            Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:40 pm | Permalink

            mancunius ….OMG if true how can her constituents vote for her ever again?

        • Original Richard
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:35 pm | Permalink

          Martin Cardiff : “Therefore, if in his or her judgement, the constituents are best served by crossing the floor, then that is in keeping with that convention.”

          Sorry, I do not agree. If she has campaigned on a particular issue in order to be elected but then votes in Parliament in blatant opposition to her election campaign, then in my opinion this is unacceptable.

          Particularly when it is considered that the constituency only gave her new party 10% and then 13% respectively in the 2015 and 2017 GEs.

          Under such circumstances a by election should be made compulsory.

      • Ian!
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:13 am | Permalink

        It is so very clear the integrity of Parliament is first and foremost undermined by the members of it.

        @Hope, I agree, a change from your manifesto pledge(promise) to your constituents in any right minded individual would also mean going back to them for confirmation on your new views.

        It would appear MP’s now think we the People voted for their Ego, not their political position.

        Just to add a further insult to their constituency, never forget their sponsors, financially or other wise and the workers that campaigned to get them elected – just kick them in the teeth!.

        Logically, as it is the way it would be applied to the rest of us they have committed fraud and are being paid by us under false pretenses.

        Is it any wonder we now have a Parliament against the People

        • Martin in Cardiff
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 1:28 pm | Permalink

          There are sixty seven million people in this country and Parliament must be mindful of them all, irrespective of how they might vote either in elections or in referendums.

          Only a minority, seventeen million of them voted Leave, and of them, only a minority again wanted a no deal exit. ALL the Leave campaigns promised a deal too. Some said that it would be “the easiest in history” to negotiate to boot.

          There was no question on the ballot paper for that advisory referendum as to the post-exit relationship with our former partners, so it would properly be a matter for our centuries-old, sovereign Parliament, under the UK Constitution.

          • Denis Cooper
            Posted August 15, 2019 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

            Try reading the leaflet put out by the government.

            https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk

            “The referendum on Thursday, 23 June is your chance to decide if we should remain in or leave the European Union.”

            “This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide.”

            Not:

            “The referendum on Thursday, 23 June is your chance to express an opinion on whether we should remain in or leave the European Union.”

            “The government would like your advice on this.”

            If the government and/or Parliament go back on that clear and unambiguous pledge who will believe anything that they say in the future, and have you even begun to think through the consequences of that breakdown in trust?

          • steve
            Posted August 15, 2019 at 5:57 pm | Permalink

            Martin in Cardiff

            For Christ’s sake man !

            Leave won the referendum, and if you want to synthesise the result then how about this – by constituency leave won by a much larger margin.

            The referendum was not advisory, it wasn’t a bloody survey.

            The fact that 17 million out of 60+ million won it clearly suggests most of the people whinging about the result couldn’t be bothered to vote. you know what that is called ? –HARD LUCK !

            Therefore: a MAJORITY who took part in the referendum voted leave.

            That is how it works so for God’s sake put a sock in and stop keeping banging on about an advisory referendum, there is no such thing.

            We’re leaving on 31st Oct and that’s that. Get over it.

          • Fred H
            Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:41 pm | Permalink

            yawn….

          • Anonymous
            Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

            Only 15% voted to save the EU in the EU Elections recently. (63% abstained defaulting to an activated Art 50 position.)

            This after 3 years of BBC/Remain propaganda and hysteria.

          • Ian!
            Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

            There has never been a deal offered or available that permits the UK to became an independent self governing country. The UK Parliament is not sovereign if it is ruled by another, the May WA sets out to ensure that

            The referendum offered the question stay or leave nothing else. This was followed up with Parliament voting just leave by some 400 plus votes.

            A so called deal is a relatively new concoct and is code for Remain.

            However, this thread was about MPs that stood to deliver one promise and political ticket, then when elected renaged on everything they promised, in effect they lied to get elected.

            The 67million includes children under age

          • libertarian
            Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:56 pm | Permalink

            MiC

            Oh dear you really are in the Andy camp of thinking aren’t you

            Parliament voted for a no deal brexit by a large majority when they triggered A50 . Might pay to check facts before posting, but then so far ever single one of your posts has been fact free

          • Martin in Cardiff
            Posted August 15, 2019 at 10:00 pm | Permalink

            That was Cameron’s government, Denis. It is dissolved. It cannot bind its successor, nor future Parliaments.

          • Denis Cooper
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 6:58 am | Permalink

            Her Majesty’s Government, Martin, and its reputation will be shot to pieces whoever becomes her Prime Minister.

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:51 am | Permalink

        She was initially chosen as Tory candidate through a primary election, hailed as a great advance in democratic party politics.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Totnes_Conservative_primary

        If she had any respect at all for her constituents she would now resign and fight a by-election as a Liberal Democrat.

        • Dennis Zoff
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

          Perhaps all Tory turncoats should have a by-election….which could be in their favour?

          If indeed, as we are constantly being told by Remainers, there is a significant shift away from Leaving to Remaining, this would be an excellent opportunity to test their assertions via their own electorate?
          ….and if they don’t wish to have a by-election, it will speak volumes about their personal veracity!

      • Grahame ASH
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:44 am | Permalink

        Yes, would like to hear your views on this, John.
        Also how were so many liberal MPs selected by Central office to represent the conservative party over the last few years.
        Is the selection system the same or will it be changed by the PM?

      • Lifelogic
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 10:26 am | Permalink

        These medics do seem very pro EU for some reason – perhaps working at the tax payer fund state health care rationing monopoly indoctrinates them in some way?

        Dr. Phillip Lee MP (Bracknell) it seems might well follow her? But for his odd EU views Dr. Lee seems quite sound.

        • Andy
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

          Perhaps, as doctors, they are just smarter than you?

          • Lifelogic
            Posted August 15, 2019 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

            Perhaps, but they are surely wrong on this one.

          • Fred H
            Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

            and doctors have a higher percentage of smokers, drinkers, drug users and neurosis than their patients.

          • libertarian
            Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:57 pm | Permalink

            Andy

            Is that all doctors or only doctors that agree with you?

            Was Dr Shipman smarter than you?

          • Dennis Zoff
            Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:32 pm | Permalink

            Andy

            Medical Doctors are subject matter experts in their chosen field of specialty, not necessarily smarter than any other well-educated individual?

            But I guessed you would not be smart enough to know the difference!

        • Lifelogic
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

          Chuka Umunna getting rather upset about the PM saying the phrase ‘terrible collaboration’ over Brexit and it puts MPs at risk he claims and it wrong he say! He turned this into “collaborators” which Boris did not say.

          He is talking nonsense. What is going on with some remainer MPs is indeed ‘a terrible collaboration’ that undermines the UK. He is just pointing out the simple truth and rightly so.

        • Martin in Cardiff
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 1:32 pm | Permalink

          So do most people who come from an intellectually rigorous background, and who grasp what is materially relevant to life and what is not – such as “national pride” and other such meaningless, indefinable terms in the latter case.

          • sm
            Posted August 15, 2019 at 3:25 pm | Permalink

            Will you be telling the SNP and Plaid Cymru, amongst others, that national pride is meaningless?

          • Denis Cooper
            Posted August 15, 2019 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

            BSc ARCS DPhil – good enough for you?

          • Lifelogic
            Posted August 15, 2019 at 5:09 pm | Permalink

            Certainly not the brighter people I know. So few on the remain side come out with any rational arguments for remaining at all, just feeling, emotions and project fear lies.

          • Martin in Cardiff
            Posted August 15, 2019 at 10:03 pm | Permalink

            Pride is a vice.

          • Dennis Zoff
            Posted August 15, 2019 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

            Denis Cooper

            Imperial College, good man. I trust you followed it all up with a Chartership in your chosen field of expertise?…..in any event, Andy may wake up one day and acknowledge the well-arounded life experience and educational abilities of individuals on this blog, especially as he is still most probably at the GCSE level?

    • Lifelogic
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:50 am | Permalink

      Competition is good – no I am sure it is far better to have to suffer the dire take it or leave it NHS state monopoly or have to buy a Trabant car after a two year waiting time or have to wait three months for a BT phone to be fitted and have laws so only BT can fit extension sockets or supply phones (at ten times what they should really cost).

      • Lifelogic
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:42 am | Permalink

        Far better to have to use one shop, one hairdresser, one builder, one doctor, one dentist, one garage who can all charge what ever they want to with their monopolies.

  2. bill brown
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 5:20 am | Permalink

    Sir JR,

    Interesting perspective but factually a bit distorted.

    All industrial countries and OECD countries had lower growth after 1972 than they had in the 50s and 60s and this had nothing to do with the EEC, this was a structural cycle after the rebuilding in the 50s ad the boom years of the 1960s

    The de-industrialisation has been a fact across Europe and the US, Since the 1970s and 80s, due to a significant change in the supply chain and higher costs in the industrialised countries. Both France, ,Netherlands, US and the Scandinavian countries have had de-industrialization.

    • Edward2
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:36 am | Permalink

      You might have thought bill, that the UK , eing full members of the mighty Common Market/EEC/EU, with its huge economic benefits and great worldwide trading powers, might have missed out on these events.
      But as you point out we had low growth and de industrialisation like everyone else.
      As usual with you remain fans everything good that happens in the world is due to the EU but anything bad is always someone else’s fault.

      • bill brown
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:53 am | Permalink

        Edward2,

        I am sorry but I fail to see the link between my factual reply and your comments?

        • Edward2
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

          Seems pretty obvious to me bill.
          Try reading my post a few times

          • Dennis Zoff
            Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:48 pm | Permalink

            One thing is for sure, the EU is hell-bent on a new incentivised de-industrialization of Britain!…well, what is left of it that has not already been moved to the Continent?

            Give the EU half a chance and the UK will become a net consumer only!

    • libertarian
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 11:05 am | Permalink

      Hello Bill ( hans) Brown

      How’s it going in Germany ?

      The Chief Business Editor of respected German broadsheet Welt has said that Germany has become “the sick man of Europe”.

      Remember mate, you heard it here first months ago

      • Fred H
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:46 pm | Permalink

        or even sick woman?

      • Dennis Zoff
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

        libertarian

        Sorry to burst your bubble, but I see no practical evidence of the Chief Business Editor’s assertion. Not sure who he is talking to, but certainly not those captains of industry that I have the pleasure to meet personally?

        I have just come back this week from a long stint in Germany and it is currently purring along nicely relative to the rest of Europe. Could it do better, yes of course?

        “the sick man of Europe” is editorial clickbait poppycock…propped up by those so-called experts again! No disrespect in general to all subject matter experts, but some really do take the biscuit!

        Are there concerns, yes of course, that’s business and politics in general and prudent management mitigate against political and international commerce change. Some are more worried than others, particularly within the “Mittelstand” companies that are directly or indirectly dependent on the goodwill of UK sales. However, the larger industrial powers are carefully correcting their strategies to ensure minimum risk and cost avoidance, and of course ensuring their shareholder value is maximized.

        The losers, of course, will be the workers, not big business! In any event, if Germany was to go down the pan, they would most lightly take the whole of Europe down with it, possibly dragging the world into a global recession….imho, this will never happen. There is just too much international financial vested interest to allow Germany to fail?

        What ordinary people, less informed, fail to understand (no disrespect intended) is the “other” powerful financial cogs that really run corporate businesses…..and global commerce?

        • libertarian
          Posted August 16, 2019 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

          Dennis Zoff

          You haven’t burst my bubble, I couldn’t care less about Germany I stopped trading there when they invented their own rules in my industry to stop other EU countries competing .

          But so you know

          “Germany is the world’s fourth-largest economy. It’s the third-largest exporter in the world, behind only China and the United States, and by far the most export-intensive economy in the G7. It’s Europe’s biggest manufacturer.

          It’s fair to say that Germany is a pretty decent proxy for the state of the globalized, interconnected world economy.

          And it’s in trouble.

          Data released Wednesday showed that the German economy fell 0.1 per cent quarter-over-quarter in the second quarter, battered by declining exports and slumping manufacturing. It’s the second time in the past four quarters that the German economy has contracted; its growth over the past 12 months is an anemic 0.4 per cent.

          The German GDP report shook global financial markets Wednesday, and rightly so. It’s no exaggeration to say that Germany is on the brink of a recession”

          Update on latest G7 GDP growth.

          % change in GDP from Q2 2018 to Q2 2019:
          US 2.3
          France 1.3
          Canada 1.3 Q1
          UK 1.2
          Japan 1.2
          Eurozone 1.1
          Germany 0.4
          Italy 0.0

          US fastest growing but slowing; Italy, Germany flatline.

          Germany’s GDP contracted by 0.1% in Q2, following a 0.4% expansion in Q1. GDP hit by slump in demand for German exports. Net fixed capital formation in construction also declined. For comparison, UK GDP grew 0.5% Q1, declined 0.2% Q2.

          Maybe the corporate geniuses at Deutsche Bank will save us

          Ordinary people …. ha ha ha

          • Dennis Zoff
            Posted August 17, 2019 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

            I appear to have offended you, that was not my intention.

            Laugh as you wish, draw your own conclusions as you must. However, I speak to the German captains of industry directly, in their own language, and who do not share your 3rd party analysis and its gross pessimistic outlook (MSM selling newsprint via so-called experts), though they are certainly more cautious and recognise they must prepare accordingly. I still stand by my comment and time will tell who is the one better informed?

            Incidentally, I am pushing for a full Brexit on WTO terms, as I personally believe we are much better out of the utterly incompetent, corrupt and self-seeking EU!

          • Dennis Zoff
            Posted August 17, 2019 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

            John

            I am rather surprised and disappointed you have chosen to delete my reply post to libertarian….it appears sometimes your moderation is rather fickle, I am not sure why, though I may conjecture?

            With respect. It is, of course, your prerogative, as the host, to moderate as you personally see fit, but does, at times, render your implied impartially as somewhat ambiguous?

          • Dennis Zoff
            Posted August 17, 2019 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

            John

            My apologies.

            My reply post to libertarian has reappeared? A mobile glitch at my end no doubt?

      • bill brown
        Posted August 16, 2019 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

        Libertarian,

        You were talking about Merkel leaving two years ago, so let us look at that one again.

        And British businesses not building up stock before end of March 2019?

        And so on

        • libertarian
          Posted August 17, 2019 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

          Hi hans

          Have you changed your name by deed poll?

          Merkel was the one who said she was leaving not me

          I just told you that the Merkel government in particular and Germany in general were heading for big trouble. Guess what they are

          Oh and Fact check website

          Quote

          “There is no evidence of stockpiling”

          • bill brown
            Posted August 18, 2019 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

            Libertarian

            When you get your facts wrong just admit it shows you have grown up, I know that stockpiling I am involved in and it was confirmed by the growth rate in first quarter

            Merkel said she was leaving way after your prediction

  3. Professor
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 5:24 am | Permalink

    A level results out today. I predict a fail in Economics for J Redwood. No marks for pursuing a policy that will raise trade barriers and then claiming trade will increase as a result. Re-sit the paper once you have learned that the biggest and most successful free trade bloc ever is the EU. And do try to grasp at least the basics of non tariff barriers (perhaps also how the WTO trade facilitation rules do not affect them).

    Reply I got an A when I took A Level Economics. You should read what I write rather than slang me off when you contribute to this blog

    • Pominoz
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 5:49 am | Permalink

      Professor,

      I agree with everything above – except the first paragraph.

      • Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:28 pm | Permalink

        Well said, Pominoz.
        It says a lot about our host that he will allow personally offensive comments to pass moderation.

        Perhaps people like this soi-disant ”professor” should be spending more time with the Graundiad, where she/he can kid him/herself that he/she is a big fish in a little pool – where some people may actually admire his/her questionable intellect!

    • steve
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:14 am | Permalink

      Professor – (doubtful)

      Put it this way; I’d rather entrust the economy and my finances to someone of JR’s qualification, than to someone who doesn’t read what is in front of him because he thinks he knows better.

      Might I suggest you start by reading the top right hand field on this web page.

      • Dennis Zoff
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

        steve

        I have met many Professors in my career, some very good, some mediocre and some downright incompetant…..some still actually indirectly work for me. I take good stead in their ability to produce critical analysis that assists our international businesses but would never allow one of them to put a hand on the corporate tiller of a multi-billion international business.

        The Professor (I much doubt) displays the characteristics of an incompetent failure, which is perhaps why he/she is so vitriolic and puerilely rude?

    • Dave Andrews
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:15 am | Permalink

      I heard that JR particularly failed the section of the exam on “getting forecasts woefully wrong”. He should have taken note of the “leading economists” of today who are exceptionally able in this department.

      Reply Yes, thanks – I might have failed the ERM and pre Banking crash exams for daring to make accurate predictions.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:56 am | Permalink

        Exactly. In business (and in betting) being right is rewarded. In politics you get on best by going with the “group think religions” of the day. Pro ERM, pro EU, pro big government, pro Climate Alarmism, pro ever more taxation, pro over regulation of everything and pro the dire Climate Change Act (that only a handful of MP failed to vote for).

        Then then all of these proven wrong dopes end up in the Lords or on the BBC lecturing us what we should do next. Yet never it seems asked about their records of abject failure.

        • Lifelogic
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 5:10 pm | Permalink

          Pro counterproductive wars too.

    • Dominic
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:33 am | Permalink

      You don’t need an A Level in Economics to understand commerce, business and trade. Just ask the founders of Microsoft, Apple and Amazon

      What John Redwood is asking for is the return of sovereignty and independence back to the British people. If that means the EU slapping tariffs on our exports to the Eurozone then so be it. European based exporters to the UK will pay the price for EU arrogance

      Democracy and sovereignty IS NOT FOR SALE AT ANY PRICE. Look towards Hong Kong and see what happens when governments target democracy

      • bill brown
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:58 am | Permalink

        Dominic,

        Your views are worth and noble, but independence and sovereignty are features which existed in full before world war 1, these days in and interdependent world, sovereignty as you would like to consider it , no longer exists

        • Mitchel
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 1:02 pm | Permalink

          “independence and sovereignty are features which existed in full before world war I”….but only for a small,select group of large/imperial powers.

        • Edward2
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

          Well that is nonsense bill.
          There is huge difference between free independent democratic nations which for mutual advantage decide to work toether on a friendly trading basis and the EU.

          • bill brown
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

            Edward 2

            This is exactly what the EU members are doing. And again read it we were talking about sovereignty

          • Edward2
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 11:10 pm | Permalink

            Legal supremacy, flag, anthem, membership fee, imposition of rules regulations and directives, open borders, tax harmonisation and much more, is very different to a simple free trade deal between two nations.

    • J Bush
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:34 am | Permalink

      Professor, as in leftie university lecturer, or perhaps in the field of entrepreneurial business, or maybe just a remainer hiding behind a screen name?

    • Edward2
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:40 am | Permalink

      You will never make Professor.
      The EU is not a free trade bloc.
      The EU is a protectionist bloc with high tariffs on many imported products especially from poor emerging nations.
      In spends a third of its total budget on protecting its main member’s farming industry against world competition and it charges the UK tens of billions a year just to be a member.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:58 am | Permalink

        Exactly.

      • bill brown
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:59 am | Permalink

        Edward2

        Please so not get too carried away, it is just another contribution

        • Edward2
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

          Not getting carried away at all bill.
          Very calm and happy thanks.
          Looking forward to November 1st.
          Unlike loads of angry remainers with their Brexit Derangement Syndrome.

          • bill brown
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

            Edward 2

            I am pleased we are both happy keep it up

          • Edward2
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 11:10 pm | Permalink

            Dont worry I will.

    • agricola
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:41 am | Permalink

      If your professorial contribution reflects your logic and teaching, god help the students.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:41 am | Permalink

      Back in the sensible days when “A” was the top grade (before they added A*) or started irrationally reversing the order with grades 1 to 9 – I assumes. What is needed to get more trade is for governments just to get out of the way as much as possible.

      Certainly not a solution like the anti-democratic, left wing, supranational, red tape spewing EU. Look at the huge economic damage they have done with the EURO, the ERM, CAP, the Common Fishing Policy, their mad energy, climate alarmism, transport, employment and refuse policies. We need to be competitive to sell things the EU makes us far less competitive. As indeed does this bloated tax to death UK government.

      London house prices down nearly 5% over the year due to absurdly high stamp duty rates and the misguided attacks on the non doms from the economic idiot Philip Hammond. Thanks goodness he has gone. Why no new policy announcements and vision from Javid yet?

    • Richard1
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:49 am | Permalink

      But why ‘professor’ do you think the UK will be putting up barriers to trade? The UK has announced lower tariffs and will not impose any restrictions on import of EU goods or services. Don’t you mean that you expect the EU to impose trade restrictions as a punishment for the UK?

      If you are really any kind of professor you should be aware that at least since the Maastricht treaty the EU is very much more than a free trade area, which is of course the root of the problem we now have.

    • Hope
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:59 am | Permalink

      Professor A lelvels need to be based on fact not fear or fiction. Until you learn to substantiate what you say suggest you stick to art or fairy tale stories.

    • Woody
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:23 am | Permalink

      How can this bloc be called a free trade bloc when we pay c 20 billion a year to be part of it … more than we would pay in tariffs under a WTO arrangement.

    • Ian Wragg
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:34 am | Permalink

      No doubt a professor at the university of Brussels. He sits alongside Martin from Cardiff. Now we’re near the endgame the trolls are out in droves.
      I see Corbyn wants to mount a coup against Boris. No doubt his temporary government will change the rules when in power to cancel further elections.
      We really can flush out the fifth columnists .

      • Andy
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

        Bless. You think we are nearing Brexit endgame!

        Brexit does not end on Oct 31 or whenever we leave the EU.

        It does not end for the rest of your life.

        Leavers have to deliver on their lies. That’ll be amusing to watch.

        • Fred H
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:49 pm | Permalink

          seeking amusement? I thought you were from the moaning and wringing of hands disposition?

        • Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:37 pm | Permalink

          Andy – you have quite a bit of competition now from several other rabid (though often ill-informed) remainers. They hate this country, and the people who have given their lives to its prosperity, nearly as much as you do.

          But – nil desperandum! You’re still vastly more entertaining because you’re even dafter and more spiteful than they are!

        • Anonymous
          Posted August 16, 2019 at 8:09 am | Permalink

          Thankfully obstructive Remainers have provided perfect cover for Brexit failure. They’ll be the ones getting blamed for it all.

    • Anonymous
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:16 am | Permalink

      Well. Apparently you can pass A level with 14% and get an ‘A’ grade with 55% so devalued they have become.

      Andy and Newmania will bang on about how much more enlightened young people are about the world.

      Well.

      I have two students back home at the moment. The house has reverted to student living.

      That means I get home from work to an untidy house, dog not walked and:

      – bins left overflowing.

      – a change of clothing going in the wash every day

      – 10kw showers on twice a day half hour each

      – empty packets left in the pantry, foodstuffs not replenished

      – the sink full of dirty washing and the kitchen untidy (the routine is to clean up before you start your cooking, apparently, and then leave your mess for the next person to do)

      – cups and glasses disappearing upstairs with none left in the kitchen for others to use

      and

      “Dad. The car’s empty.”

      “Well pay for some petrol then. I’ve already provided the car and insurance so that you can get to work.”

      “But that will take up a lot of my earnings.”

      “Welcome to my world.”

      These are at the best universities ??? Never mind extending the vote to sixteen-year-olds… I’d raise the age to 22 !

      • BritInDeutschland
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

        Any responsibility from the so-called adults who have ‘parented’ these?

        • Anonymous
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:53 pm | Permalink

          None at all. They’ve come back from uni right up themselves.

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

        Sounds like you failed as a parent.

        • Anonymous
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

          No. It’s just as student doctors they think such mundane responsibility is beneath them… as well as being smarter than you.

        • Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:42 pm | Permalink

          For the first time, Martin, I agree with you. Probably the last time though.

          • Anonymous
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 8:19 am | Permalink

            They’re highly successful but since they’ve gone to university their sense of sense of personal responsibility decreased in inverse proportion to their sense of superiority.

            I did so much to get them there – it’s their time at Uni and not with me that appears to have f***** them up in some ways.

            So. As with all Remainers:

            Everything bad is my doing

            Everything good is theirs

            And as far as the government goes – they’d rather a former drug dealer as their expert on how to raise kids than me, who managed to bring up 2 out of 2 Russel Group kids in a drug dealing area, as I said I was going to do before I did it.

      • Narrow Shoulders
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:01 pm | Permalink

        Two replies above suggest you have failed as a parent.

        I suggest that anyone fighting the natural order is King Kanute-esque. So long as your children present an acceptable face to the world you have done your job. In the house? Life is too short. Take your victories in the empty car.

        • Anonymous
          Posted August 16, 2019 at 8:21 am | Permalink

          I bring it to the blogs anonymously and otherwise keep schtuum about it. Yes. Life’s too short.

      • Fred H
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

        Congratulations. Seems like you have raised 2 perfectly normal teens/young adults.

      • Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:40 pm | Permalink

        And you put up with this sort of behaviour? My mother would have kicked me out without a single regret – I’m glad to say. That’s why I respect her today. And that’s why Andy has no respect for his/her elders – because they probably let him/her get away with the sort of behaviour you describe.

        • Anonymous
          Posted August 16, 2019 at 8:25 am | Permalink

          I’m firm but fair.

          If the pants and socks appear in the wash in a roll (I don’t know how they do it !!!) they go THROUGH the wash like it and go back in the wardrobe like it. A form of work to rule.

          And then catty comments a’la sit com “Oh. How is your Saving the Planet going ?” as they emerge from the shower after 25 minutes.

          • Anonymous
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 8:26 am | Permalink

            Should read: if the pants and socks AND jeans appear in a roll…

    • James1
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:23 am | Permalink

      It looks like ‘Professor’ must have been loosely educated or studied ‘bad’ as opposed to ‘good’ economics. We ought to wish the EU the best of luck after 31 October, they are going to need it.

    • libertarian
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 11:09 am | Permalink

      Professor

      Never trust academics

      You and they know nothing about reality

      The EU is not and never has been a free trade bloc . Its a protectionist customs union

      fail 1/10 see me after school

      • bill brown
        Posted August 16, 2019 at 3:22 pm | Permalink

        Libertarian,

        It’s nice to her from you again old friend,, Are you going to continue your style of personal insults to anybody, who thinks different than you or have you grown up?

        Hans

    • Everhopeful
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 1:32 pm | Permalink

      Professor
      Not really very intelligent of you to try to tangle academically with JR of all people.
      Goodness me …I don’t know how on earth he puts up with the rubbish spouted on here ( speaking for myself obviously).
      But he does… and with such good grace.
      How very nasty and unintelligent to be so rude to him.

  4. Lifelogic
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 5:27 am | Permalink

    You rightly say:- Our growth rate has been slower in the single market than before we joined.

    Indeed big government, expensive energy, over taxation, absurd red tape and government/EU interventions at every turn always slow growth rates. That is what big government does.

    The ERM debacle did indeed hit our growth rate badly (and destroyed the Conservative party for many terms). All rather predictably too. If you fix interest rates to hold some daft arbitrary rate against the DM when it should be floating on the market and adjust to the needs of the economy. Why on earth did Thatcher appoint someone who failed his maths O level to be chancellor and then let him push her into joining the ERM against the sensible advice of Alan Walters.

    The fiasco cost me a fortune, thousands lost their businesses. homes. marriages and even lives. The pathetic John Major has still not even had the decency to appologise. It was interesting to listen to Norman Lamont’s take on this (on Reflections radio 4 this week).

    • Mark B
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:16 pm | Permalink

      LL

      Whatever you do, do not watch the episode of Poisoned Chalice where they tell the story of what happened and what they were doing – or not 😉

  5. Dominic
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 5:29 am | Permalink

    This isn’t about international trade. This is about confronting barbarity, totalitarianism and State oppression and the Chinese State is just that, oppressive

    The Chinese government may be able to crush transparency and conceal their behaviour on the mainland but Hong Kong is a different matter. We can see their actions, their intentions and the vile nature of what that government is.

    One can only feel deep sympathy for the Chinese people.

    And Trump. Well, he’s another Thatcher. He understands that sometimes it ain’t good enough to go along for the ride in the way Obama did. Far better to confront the issues and get them out in the open no matter how inconvenient that maybe

    We now need a PM to drag this nation out of the EU no matter how inconvenient that may be for others.

    As the odious Hammond once stated, let’s turn ‘the UK into the new Singapore’. That will terrify the EU

  6. Shirley
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 5:36 am | Permalink

    A sovereign independent country can react more quickly to changing world conditions, as opposed to the behemoth of the EU which takes years (if not decades) to react and agree a solution, that’s if they can agree at all.

    Once the UK leaves, there will be many tax increases in the EU to overcome the loss of UK money and the reduction in trade. I honestly cannot imagine the EU will cut its budget to match the reduced income. They appear to be hell bent on increasing it, so who will pay?

    • bill brown
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:01 am | Permalink

      Shirley

      Do you how big the UK contribution actually is in percentage terms of the EU budget net?

      • Shirley
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

        The second highest!

        • bill brown
          Posted August 16, 2019 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

          Shirley

          Yes in real terms but not as a proportion per capita

          • Edward2
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

            Cash is what you pay.
            Not some odd statistic.

      • Fred H
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:06 pm | Permalink

        and how many of the 27 pay in , how many take out?

    • Mitchel
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 10:58 am | Permalink

      At least M Macron has said there will be no more new additions to the 27/8 without structural reform of the EU.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

      The UK contribution to the European Union budget is no more than one eighth of it. That budget is only around one percent of EU GDP too. So the UK money is about one-eighth of one percent of the European Union GDP of some seventeen trillion US dollars, or of around fourteen trillion if you omit the UK. The EU twenty-seven will have no serious problem in re-budgeting. The problems will be in the UK. Its commerce with the European Union equals that with all the hundreds of countries in the rest of the world combined. Yes, including the US. Nearly all of that happens under European Union trade agreements at present too, not under UK national ones. You just do not understand, do you?

      • Edward2
        Posted August 16, 2019 at 7:18 am | Permalink

        Dodgy use of statistics Martin conflating cash paid towards EU spending plans by the UK, with the GDP of other nations.
        In accountancy terms this is the stupid error of thinking turnover is profit.

        • Martin in Cardiff
          Posted August 16, 2019 at 12:08 pm | Permalink

          We’ll see, won’t we, Edwards?

          • Edward2
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

            Nothing to see.
            Just pointing out your use of statistics is faulty.

  7. Lifelogic
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 5:39 am | Permalink

    Yesterday on BBC radio 4 they were discussing the train fair increases. The reporter had the usual BBC assumption that trains are more “environmental” and save C02 compaired to cars. But this is not actually true most of the time.

    If you take everything into account the car/bus connections needed at each end, the often indirect route you have to take, the ticketing systems, tracks and track maintenance, the staff needed, security fencing, tree cutting then they are often far less efficient than cars and coaches. Certainly far less efficient than a full private car going directly from A to B (rather than via C and D) on most journeys. So why this idiotic BBC assumption every time?

    Then we have the idiotic assumption the Greta taking a racing boat to the US is more environmental than just flying. Then we have HEIR HEADS ‘Eco-warrior’ Prince Harry slammed for flying Meghan Markle to Ibiza in private jet with massive carbon footprint in the Sun.

    Hypocracy rules it seems – do as I say not as I do.

  8. Mark B
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 5:46 am | Permalink

    Good morning

    Trade, or the lack of it, has always been a precursor to dispute or even war. Trade is important to the life blood of an economy and tgevwell being of its people. Germany in both world wars knew this as did France before them. Remainers use the fear of the loss of trade forgetting that that is what the continent tried to do to us to make us submit to their will.

    We forget that we are still part of an anti-trade Customs Union were tariffs are priced mostly to our disadvantage.

    Tariffs are a tax on the consumer. The consumer is priced to force them either to not purchasing foreign goods or, purchasing domestic products. Whilst there might be good reason to have tariffs, i.e. to protect small business etc. some tariffs are used to protect greedy vested interests similar to those of the Corn Laws. These type of tariffs are immoral and should be illegal.

    The removal of tariffs creates competition and innovation. Lowers prices and helps defeat poverty in less developed nations. It is why I oppose the EU as it is essentially a Franco-German cartel.

  9. Lifelogic
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 5:47 am | Permalink

    Plus we have the ASA banning two perfectly sensible adverts (for not showing woman as spacewomen or similar and showing men to be a bit daft sometimes when hungry (as indeed they often are). What a mad loons we have in charge. Yet the the ASA seem quite happy with claims like electic cars are zero emmision and several other direct lies in adverts.

    The era of hypocracy and political correctness it seems.

  10. DaveM
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 5:59 am | Permalink

    OT – with all the recent party defections to parties directly opposed to the Conservative manifesto is it time to introduce a bill making by-elections compulsory in these circumstances?

    • Lifelogic
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 10:14 am | Permalink

      Indeed more power to the real voters. The people get things right so much more often that politicians. It is the politicians who have slowly buried us into this appalling EU trap, taken us into several pointless, counterproductive & very damaging wars, joined the ERM, nearly joined the EURO, went for open door EU immigration for anyone including criminals and an idiotic & expensive energy policy …… all without the real consent of the voters.

      Let’s be more like Switzerland in terms of regular referendums. It is not surprising that the people get it right more often either. This as the people are in touch with the coal face and know what they want. The politicians suffer from group think, pressure groups, corruption, paid “consultancy” positions from vested interests, vitue signalling, the desire to buy votes in certain areas, pressure from trade unions…… Furthermore anyone wanting to be a politicians tends to be the sort who aspire to be one. Also often they have an agenda and want to boss others arround. Nearly all are art graduates, lawyers, leftie economists, PPE grads, Scots Nats and/or leftie loons with a huge chip on their shoulders. I generalise but basically true.

  11. formula57
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:22 am | Permalink

    Trade wars indeed and bound-up with currency wars.

    The U.S. Senate is considering “The Competitive Dollar for Jobs and Prosperity Act” which envisages introducing a Market Access Charge, being a variable fee on incoming foreign capital flows used to purchase dollar assets.

    As Michael Pettis explains on his China Financial Markets blog, given a country’s capital account and current account must always match up exactly, so a balanced U.S. capital account would mean a balanced current account, and with this the U.S. trade deficit would disappear. He thinks that in present circumstances the Senate proposal has much merit, not least because in the present era “Capital has become the tail that wags the dog of trade”.

  12. steve
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:26 am | Permalink

    JR

    “We need to remember as well that the overwhelming majority of our trade is domestic. There is more scope for growing UK businesses and farms to supply our domestic market more”

    Now that I agree with !

    Surely with the world in such turmoil as now, it makes to be as self sufficient as possible.

    De-industrialisation needs to be reversed as a matter of priority, and as for farming I’d prefer to buy home produced food – in fact I do already, I stopped buying anything of EU origin a while back.

    I’d like to see a return to the days of community, home grown seasonal food, mend and make do.

    • Davies
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:10 pm | Permalink

      Yep cutting down the food miles would be a good start. Why import beef from south America when we have plenty of our own?

    • Fred H
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:08 pm | Permalink

      amen to that…

    • Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:47 pm | Permalink

      Your last sentence, Steve – music to my ears!

  13. steadyeddie
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:28 am | Permalink

    ‘No current difficulties…..in importing from non EU countries’, and certainly no restrictions on exporting from the UK to non EU countries so what on earth is the trade benefit from leaving. A level Economics in the 70’s has very little to do with the current post industrial, globalised, quantitative easing world economy of today. Perhaps a refresher course is in order.

    Reply In 2012 I passed with distinction the CISI investment exams which included work on QE etc

    • Fred H
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

      so there !!

    • Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:51 pm | Permalink

      ”…. what on earth is the trade benefit from leaving”? So you don’t do much in the way of independent research then, SE? Don’t rely on Facebook to give you all the answers – it just makes you appear to be a bit dim and ill-informed.

      Perhaps a bit of educational reading might benefit you. Ever heard of ‘books’?

  14. agricola
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:37 am | Permalink

    Reading your submission today it would seem to me that most trade problems have political roots. Trade or hampering it are a means of penalising a nation on a path that the penaliser considers unacceptable. Russia, China, the USA and the EU all have political systems that in esscence conflict with each other. Trade should be a way of smoothing the differences , but all too often only highlights them.

    Coming close to home you might think that arranging a free trade agreement with the EU would be so easy. To convert the status quo into a free trade treaty is the same book with a different dust cover. However, due to the political desires of one side or the other the WA was created to prevent it. As such it has been a great success, but fails ultimately in keeping us in the EU. It has also triggered political change in the UK that makes staying in the EU an impossibility . Were it to succeed there would be an unmanagable residue of bitterness left in UK politics. My conclusion,short of a damacene moment at the EU, is that we are better off leaving on WTO terms.A clean sheet to be written on at a later date.

    Conlusion 99% of the problems with trade are political, not the trade itself.

    • Mitchel
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 10:01 am | Permalink

      Geopolitics has always trumped economics and always will.It is not that “Russia,China,the USA and the EU all have political systems that in essence conflict with each other”(that was never an issue when,say,Britain traded with Imperial Russia),it is the fact that what was planned as a monopoly system after WWII based on the $ and the Bretton Woods institutions was never fully accepted,first by the Soviets and their bloc,and now after believing “end of history” had arrived with the dissolution of the USSR and becoming complacent, the even more powerful Sino-Russian Eurasian bloc which is sucking in Iran and Turkey (and increasingly likely India-despite the rivalry between India and China-due to Russian diplomacy).

      The Pentagon recently issued a report warning that the Sino-Russian alliance if allowed to solidify will “turn the world upside down”.They must have been asleep this past ten years!

      • Mark B
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:27 pm | Permalink

        Absolutely correct.

        If I have something to sell and you want to buy it, all that remains is for us to agree a price. No government intervention necessary.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 10:16 am | Permalink

      “most trade problems have political roots” exactly! Plus vested interests lobbying (and indeed paying) politicians to get legal protections.

  15. Martin in Cardiff
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:40 am | Permalink

    Yes, John, as Nigel Farage said, “only” twelve percent of our economy is to do with the European Union.

    How come a fraction of a percent growth or shrinkage in a quarter is such a big deal then?

    And why on Earth is anyone bothered about a mere point seven of a percent going on international aid?

    • steve
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:55 am | Permalink

      Martin in Cardiff

      “And why on Earth is anyone bothered about a mere point seven of a percent going on international aid?”

      Same reason we don’t like our money paying for the peripheral minorities to have free prescriptions etc.

    • libertarian
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 11:11 am | Permalink

      Martin of Cardiff

      REALLY ? You really asked that question ?

      “How come a fraction of a percent growth or shrinkage in a quarter is such a big deal then?”

      Try and figure out what 88% of our economy is valued at and why a percentage point or 0.7% are in fact very big numbers smh

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 12:45 pm | Permalink

        I know that. Stop being deliberately blind to the obvious point that I made.

        In which case twelve percent is enormous, and therefore Farage was ridiculous as ever to preface it with the word “only”.

        The UK, absolutely, cannot afford to lose that financial association with the European Union.

        • libertarian
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:05 pm | Permalink

          MiC

          No you spouted more nonsense , its basic arithmetic

          There is no way under any circumstances that the UK will lose 12% of its trade with EU countries, unless of course you think that EU citizens will no longer wish to buy mobile phones, world beating cancer scanners, coldplay albums, scotch whiskey, aircraft engines, etc etc

          You remainers really dont have the first clue about trade

          ps I suspect Farage “only” comment was aimed at the lie put about by Remainers that 54% of economic activity was with the EU , its not its only 12% ( actually its now only 9%)

    • Fred H
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:13 pm | Permalink

      in 2016 our Foreign Aid was £14.6bn ….I’m pretty bothered by it. Seems its all monopoly money to you.

  16. HJ
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:41 am | Permalink

    John, It’s called the WTO Trade Facilitation Agreement, not the Facilitation of Trade Agreement.

    • acorn
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

      Agreed, either way the TFA is irrelevant to Brexit. All WTO members graded as “developed”, such as the UK, are required by TFA, to offer easy terms to lesser developed nations (LDC).

      Meanwhile, the WTO terms the UK has declared are still the EU cut and paste schedules, adjusted for the tariff rate quota (TRQ) splits agreed between the EU and UK previously. Currently subject to a dozen or more objections posted by other WTO members.

      WTO terms (schedules) only specify the maximum import tariff a WTO member will apply to all other WTO members; and, that’s all. The extent to which the WTO can affect non-tariff barriers is basically down to discrimination. Different treatment of the same product from different WTO members at different ports of entry. “WTO terms” as frequently quoted on this site, are no salvation for a no-deal Brexit!

      • Terry
        Posted August 16, 2019 at 9:55 am | Permalink

        Ah acorn, you really do not get it. You provide detail, facts and well informed comment. That is not what Brexit is about at all. Do try to offer prejudice, ignorance and anger instead

    • Fred H
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:13 pm | Permalink

      pedant.

  17. Dominic
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:47 am | Permalink

    The EU and the Eurozone is the product of decades of German economic domination. It is testament to German efficiency and productivity.

    And the Eurozone is a veneer for German’s economic empire. All other Eurozone economies revolve around the German sun tied in their respective orbits by the gravity of the prevailing value of the Euro

    The Eurozone isn’t about free trade, it’s about expanding and protecting German export markets

    • Ian!
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:17 am | Permalink

      Agreed – it is a protectionist trading block which distorts trade to keep prices high

    • Mitchel
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 10:08 am | Permalink

      The German economic domination(at least in manufacturing) was planned by the Americans when they restructured Europe after WWII,believing that Germany and the EU later built around it would forever be their vassal.

  18. Andy
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:48 am | Permalink

    More trade = good. You get richer.

    Less trade = bad. You get poorer.

    Brexit = less trade.

    Simple.

    • Woody
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:50 am | Permalink

      Simple but wrong … 90% of future world demand will come from outside the eu .. source .. the eu. So where should our business be looking to trade .. outside the eu … simple. We already export more outside the eu than into it … just reinforces the logic to leave. Simple really.

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

        All trading nations do by far most of it with the countries geographically closest.

        The UK is surrounded two hundred and seventy degrees by the European Union. The nearest other significant economy is the US, three thousand miles away, or the ex-Soviet Union on the other side of it.

        Good luck with exacting favourable terms from those.

        • Robert mcdonald
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 4:09 pm | Permalink

          The UK is surrounded 360 degrees by sea and air. The world is there for us to trade with economically and cost effectively.

          • Martin in Cardiff
            Posted August 15, 2019 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

            Plank.

          • Robert mcdonald
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

            Martin .. so no constructive argument there I sea .. pun intended. I note that you consider overlooking a continent is being surrounded. I see the world, you see the past.

        • Edward2
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

          Well thats not correct martin
          Japan has huge trade with UK Europe and USA
          China and South Korea the same.
          Germany and UK sell loads to USA and Middle East.
          Have you ever run a company that imports and exports ?

        • dixie
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 5:40 pm | Permalink

          The UK does not do the majority of it’s trade with the countries geographically closest to us and your rule does not apply so strongly with services and technology.

          Switzerland is closer than the US, as is Russia, Israel and Saudi Arabia all of whom we trade with.

        • libertarian
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:28 pm | Permalink

          Martin In Cardiff

          Sorry mate this looks like I’m picking on you but your posts are so laughably wrong its not true

          1) The UK’s biggest single market is in fact the USA

          2) The UK economy is 82% based on services which have no geographic restriction at all

          3) Just 8.2% of UK manufactured goods are exported anywhere

          4) 29% of service exports are business services such as consultancy, research and development , IT etc

          5) 22% of service exports are financial service and accounting

          Both these categories are sold mostly to English speaking countries

          So no business isn’t done primarily with geographic neighbours

          Woody

          Is correct the EU’s own estimates are that the percentage of world economic activity are moving away from Europe . The EU now only accounts for 14% of global economic activity down from 30% in 1980

          India and Brazil have both just overtaken Italy and are close to overtaking France as bigger economies .

          Of course when the UK leaves the EU, the EU will shrink by a large margin

          • Martin in Cardiff
            Posted August 15, 2019 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

            Baloney.

            The UK’s biggest market is its domestic one, followed by the single market of the twenty-seven other European Union countries.

            In fact, its domestic market should be considered as part of that too, properly.

            If you are considering only nations, then you will make your obvious error.

          • Edward2
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 7:23 am | Permalink

            You are forgetting that we have a large deficit on trade with the EU

          • Robert mcdonald
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

            Edward .. you need to keep it simple for MiC .. the UK exports c 46% to the eu and imports c 54% 2018 stats They need us more than we need them and we still have to pay c 20 billion a year for that doubtful privilege. And there are plenty of non eu nations who will sell to us … indeed I have just bought Apples from Chile and Oranges from South Africa .. good quality, fresh and cost competitive. And of course I can buy Samsung electrical goods, Kia cars, .. better than VW, Audi, Renault etc plus of course Chinese made everything.

          • libertarian
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

            MiC

            Yes its true that 82% of our economy is internal

            However there is no such place as an EU

            United States: US$64.4 billion (13.3% of total UK exports)
            Germany: $47 billion (9.7%)
            Netherlands: $33.3 billion (6.9%)
            France: $31.8 billion (6.6%)
            Ireland: $28.3 billion (5.9%)
            China: $27.5 billion (5.7%)
            Switzerland: $25.4 billion (5.2%)
            Belgium: $19.1 billion (4%)
            Italy: $14.1 billion (2.9%)
            Spain: $13.9 billion (2.9%)
            Hong Kong: $10.3 billion (2.1%)
            United Arab Emirates: $10 billion (2.1%)
            Turkey: $9.5 billion (2%)
            Japan: $8.3 billion (1.7%)
            South Korea: $7.8 billion (1.6%)

            As you will see 8 of the 16 aren’t remotely close to us geographically so your post was in fact BALONEY

            ps you clearly have no idea what the “single market” is, hint its NOT a market its a set of common regulations

            pps the Internal market to give the single market its correct name is goods only there is still no internal market in services which you will remember accounts for 84% of our activity , the 2017 directive on services is an objective not a reality

    • Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:52 am | Permalink

      No it is not simple at all.
      Me, I voted Leave hoping that common sense would prevail and we would leave the EU-EEA, but remain in the Efta-EEA. This was summarily dismissed by Mrs May and warmly condemned by all the comments on Conservative Home very abruptly.
      Now we face a time of change.
      After that the world is open and we will grow while the EU continues to contract.
      If the Efta-EEA had been pursued, the change would have happened less abruptly, that’s all.
      Be prepared for turbulence but we will get a safe landing

      • Andy
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 1:15 pm | Permalink

        As a Leave voter you should be appalled that unelected El Presidente Boris and Herr Cummings are intent on not delivering the Brexit you voted for. Shame.

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

        The European Union will continue to grow in absolute terms, but the developing world will grow more quickly, that is all.

        The clue is in the word “developing”.

        If you look at their histories under the British Empire in many cases, then I think that you will understand their thinking, that they perhaps do not owe Britain any favours, however.

        • Edward2
          Posted August 16, 2019 at 7:28 am | Permalink

          So now you agree growth outside the EU is higher.
          That is a start.
          That is where the future trade opportunities are.
          Outside the EU
          The protectionist policies tariffs and complex regulatory regime of the EU are reducing its share of world trade and delivering low growth high unemployment and high taxes for its people.

          • Martin in Cardiff
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 12:11 pm | Permalink

            Yes, but look from where places like Mali are starting, Einstein?

            What do you expect?

          • Edward2
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

            Thanks for the random compliment.
            You need to read the post by Libertarian above.
            He has fact checked and ruined your argument.
            Not difficult obviously
            PS
            Who mentioned Mali?
            Red herring alert

        • Robert mcdonald
          Posted August 16, 2019 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

          At least when we handed power back to these ex colonies we didn’t try to saddle them with restrictions with petty threats and bullying. I’ve worked there and the UK is respected as a democracy .. pity that your remoaners buddies are doing their best to destroy that heritage.

    • David Maples
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:00 am | Permalink

      Oh dear, oh dear, you’re at it again Andy, talking simplistic, reductionist twaddle. Do you have any qualifications in Economics(yes, I do, taught A level in the subject for 25 years, but I don’t arrogantly claim any particular expertise like some doomsayers in the Dismal Science)? So, here is a good A level question for you.
      Q/ Should New Zealand apply to join the EU?

      • Andy
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 1:32 pm | Permalink

        Teaching does not make you an expert. I had plenty of bad teachers who thought they were more impressive then they were.

        Lots of you like to cite New Zealand as a model to aspire to.

        And I am sure NZ is a wonderful place – aside from the random acts of far right terror of course.

        But why do you want to aspire to be like a country which, per capita, is poorer than us? A country which is poorer per capita than half the EU. A country which is poorer than all of the non-EU EEA countries.

        What NZ does have is a close trading relationship with its nearest neighbour, Australia. They are working together to create a single market – though this takes time. They have a dispute resolution method – which obviously limits their sovereignty. In fact they are very much following the EU single market model – albeit about 3 decades behind.

        Awkward eh? The rest of the world is moving closer together and the Little Englanders are moving apart.

        • Edward2
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

          Well thats not correct andy.
          NZ gdp per capita 42940.58 usd
          UK gdp per capita 39720.44 usd

          And that mutually beneficial trading relationship is one where NZ doesnt pay tens of billions a year to Australia keeps control of its borders laws and taxes.

        • Richard1
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

          You should study the Australia-NZ FTA. It includes all sorts of liberal provisions which the EU single market doesn’t, such as mutual recognition rather than harmonisation. But NZ doesn’t have to pay Australia money, doesn’t have to accept the Australian Supreme Court as it’s supreme Court, doesn’t have to accept control of all its other trade by Australia and isn’t contemplating a political union with Australia. It would indeed be better if our relationship with the EU was like that between Australia and and NZ.

        • steve
          Posted August 16, 2019 at 5:15 am | Permalink

          Andy

          “I had plenty of bad teachers who thought they were more impressive then they were.”

          That could explain a lot, unless of course it was a case of you never keeping your mouth shut and so never learning anything.

          However, I suspect this is where the chip comes from.

          • Fred H
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 7:47 am | Permalink

            quite a revealing remark from Andy . ‘ Its not me, its them’.

      • David Maples
        Posted August 16, 2019 at 10:47 am | Permalink

        Oh I see, it’s world government you’re after, where conflicts would cease…or rather where international wars would simply be replaced by civil wars. The point I was cryptically making Andy, is that geographical proximity is not a sound reason to engage in a federal structure. If Britain can benefit from a union, then there should be no proscriptions on other countries either, which begs the question of what are the distinct advantages of being part of a glorified customs area, and a further consideration being, why this economic arrangement must necessarily morph into a political federation?

    • steve
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:02 am | Permalink

      Andy

      No Brexit = riot, a very big one. Which then = Brexit anyway.

      Sellout = Nigel Farage, = Brexit.

      Less trade ? so what. At least you’ll get poorer which can’t be a bad thing.

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 12:54 pm | Permalink

        Yes, a hundred thousand mobility scooters in central London would cause a few traffic problems, Steve.

        • steve
          Posted August 16, 2019 at 5:08 am | Permalink

          MiC

          …..easily dispersed with water cannon.

      • Andy
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 1:35 pm | Permalink

        I can afford to get poorer.

        And thank you for clarifying that Brexit is about thuggery.

        Incidentally – we can fight too.

        And seeing that we pay the benefits of the Brexit mobility scooter brigade I suspect we win in the end.

        Enjoy your riot.

        • Narrow Shoulders
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:10 pm | Permalink

          How do you propose stopping paying for it Andy.

          I have long awaited a way of not having PAYE collected? Are you just going to not earn anything because you are now in the second year of a second rate University/college?

        • Anonymous
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:59 pm | Permalink

          Thuggery.

          Well actually we used the ballot box -to no effect- and three years later still no violence from us but I didn’t expect any thanks for it, just scurrilous lies that we’re thugs.

          You’ve done nothing but slap us around for three years and where’s it got you ? On the verge of Hard Brexit and with only 15% voting to save membership of the EU in the recent EU elections. (63% abstained and did not use the opportunity object to our leaving date set in law.)

        • Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:05 pm | Permalink

          If Andy and Martin are typical of remainers, then it becomes more and more obvious why politics are in a parlous state at the moment. Are these generally the types who are representing remainers in our country? I find it hard to imagine a more bigoted, narrow-minded and ill-informed pair.
          I wonder sometimes at people’s inability for introspection. Perhaps they’re too arrogant to care how they appear to others.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:05 am | Permalink

      Yes you clearly are.

    • Julie Williams
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:06 am | Permalink

      This sounds like a message from Johnson to the EU, after all, EU members export much more to the UK than vice versa!

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:25 pm | Permalink

        If the position were that the UK just happened to buy a bit more from The Whole World, than The Whole World bought from the UK, then do you think that the UK would be in a position to bully The Whole World?

        No?

        So why do you think that it would work with a major chunk of it, the European Union then?

        • Edward2
          Posted August 16, 2019 at 7:32 am | Permalink

          We dont want to “bully” anyone Martin.
          Mutually beneficial trade relationships are negotiated by sensible people who want the best outcomes for both nations.
          The nations of Germany France and Holland want profitable easy trading with the UK to continue.
          Or do think they want high tariffs?
          Especially as the UK would derive larger revenues in yearly tariff collection than those three countries.

        • libertarian
          Posted August 16, 2019 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

          MiC

          There are 54 countries in Europe

          There are 27 EU member states of those only 7 have any real trade value with the UK. Germany Netherlands Ireland France Belguim Italy Spain have big export markets to the UK. If the EU imposes tariffs then their exports will get hit badly …. who do you think should be worried?

          • bill brown
            Posted August 17, 2019 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

            Libertarian

            the answer is the UK

    • agricola
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:21 am | Permalink

      NoAndy pint half empty.

      Brexit=replacing expensive food trade with other sources.
      +
      Brexit=Exporting to and importing from countries around the World on less restrictive terms than the EU impose.
      Brexit= Doing all the above minus all the political restraint and regulation that the EU impose upon us.

      You must ask yourself if you can survive in this brave new world.

    • Edward2
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:27 am | Permalink

      “Less trade” can mean less imports and therefore a reduced trade deficit and more orders for UK companies supplying products and services instead of those currently imported from the EU.
      Green too with much shorter supply routes.
      A win win eh young Andy?

    • steadyeddie
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:31 am | Permalink

      👍

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:55 am | Permalink

      Andy, are you sure its not you that’s simple?

    • Anonymous
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:04 am | Permalink

      The UK has 85% national debt according to Newmania. Accrued whilst in the EU.

      There’s never been more trade and never more debt in peace time than in the first part of this century.

      And how do you square more and more trade with your position on the environment ?

      More trade = Bad. You get more environmental destruction

      Less trade = Good. We save the planet and stay in the black

      Brexit = Good. We save the planet and stay in the black… except I wouldn’t say that because nothing’s so simple.

    • forthurst
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:09 am | Permalink

      Quite. That’s why joining the EU in the first place was a very stupid political decision; it cut us off immediately from our traditional trading partners. Now, remainers want us to stay tied to an economic block with a rapidly declining share of world trade. There’s no cure for stupid.

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:47 pm | Permalink

        It was the countries of the British Empire getting guns and learning how to shoot back, which cut the UK off from its “traditional” wealth source, forthurst.

        Joining the then EEC was a lifesaver for a country on its knees at the time. I was there.

        • steve
          Posted August 16, 2019 at 5:30 am | Permalink

          Who taught you that bullshit ?

          You need to become acquainted with the facts as to how Gt Britain handled colonial transition to independence, compared to what DeGaulle did to the former French colonies striving for independence, before slagging us off.

        • libertarian
          Posted August 16, 2019 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

          MiC

          If you were there at the time then you weren’t paying attention

          In 1972 the UK was the worlds third largest economy , in 1972 our GDP grew 3.9% over 1971

          We joined the EEC in January 1973

          End 1973 early 1974 we went on to 3 day week

          In 1974 the UK was labeled the sick man of Europe

          In 1975 the UK inflation rate was 24.4%

          In 1976 the Callaghan government hit a financial crisis and called in the IMF

          Joining the EEC was the START of our troubles and poor economic performance

          • bill brown
            Posted August 17, 2019 at 7:00 am | Permalink

            Libertarian,

            Our economic performance in the 60s were not as impressive as large parts of Europe either, so your assumptions is factually wrong

    • IanT
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:14 am | Permalink

      Yes, a very “Simple” view of Brexit Andy but one (fortunately) not shared by everyone.

    • James1
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:34 am | Permalink

      Brexit = vastly expanded trade as it won’t be held back by the the unelected cartel in Brussels

      • bill brown
        Posted August 17, 2019 at 5:52 pm | Permalink

        James 1

        Every country in Europe have increased their exports to the rest of the World whilst being part of EU

    • Newmania
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:43 am | Permalink

      Ha …well said Andy. I often think the point of JR` s economic case , is not so much to make an argument as to imply there is one.

      • Andy
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

        I know.

        I particularly like the economic arguments for Brexit threads. It is like taking on the online equivalent of the Japanese pilot who was still fighting WW2 in 1975.

        There is literally no economic case for Brexit. None. In 2016 when the referendum took place I guess it was arguable that there might be an upside.
        Now, 3 years on, there is not.

        There is simply no Brexit scenario which makes us better off than we would have been without Brexit. Not short term. Not medium term. Not ever.
        Knowing everything we now know it is simply flat-Earth stuff to argue otherwise. And yet they all argue otherwise!

        I am sure there are some sensible arguments for Brexit – but economics is unquestionably not it. You have lost this war people. Everyone expects to get poorer. They think they will like it. They won’t.

        What next – sovereignty? Do you want that argument destroyed too?

        • Edward2
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

          It is all just your prediction of the future andy.
          You remain fans got all your project fear 1.0 predictions wrong so excuse me if Im a skeptic on your project fear 2.0

        • steve
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

          Andy

          “Everyone expects to get poorer. They think they will like it. They won’t.”

          No, YOU won’t like it. WE say…bring it !

          Had you not thought that perhaps it might not be such a bad idea to bring everyone down to earth ? People would have to use their money wisely, mend and make do, and come together as communities and look out for each other…..as it used to be.

          “What next – sovereignty? Do you want that argument destroyed too?”

          I don’t think you should go there.

        • Anonymous
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:51 pm | Permalink

          We went off the economic cliff edge over ten years ago. My pension lump sum/inheritance (if I get any) has been earmarked to get my lads on the property ladder (something my own parents didn’t have to do for me.)

          This was not my plan when I set up my pensions as a young man.

          Escalating house prices coincided with 1997 and Blair’s opening of our borders.(Actually, Major’s but hey)

          Don’t give me tosh about it being old people. We’ve always had old people.

          Over ten million unexpected people arriving in locations where people need to work since then is what has made my kids and me poor and is why I voted Brexit and don’t insult my intelligence by telling me it had nothing to do with it.

          If house prices slump and I don’t have to shell out then that’s a win.

          • Anonymous
            Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:52 pm | Permalink

            PS. Leave won’t be blamed for Brexit failing. 3 years of obstructionism by Remain is going to get it in the neck for that.

          • margaret howard
            Posted August 15, 2019 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

            Anonymous

            “Escalating house prices coincided with 1997 and Blair’s opening of our borders.(Actually, Major’s but hey)”

            Rubbish. Our first house was bought in 1965 and sold five years later for 5x that sum. Then the whole country went house price mad. No dinner party without everybody talking about how much their house was worth/had appreciated etc etc
            The building societies encouraged it by giving 100% mortgages and suddenly the wife’s earnings were included. The country sunk into a house buying frenzy and the investment property was regarded as a better bet than savings.

            Our young people are now paying the price for my generation’s greed. Stop blaming outsiders – this disaster is all our own fault.

          • steve
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 5:39 am | Permalink

            Anonymous

            Spot on !

        • Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:08 pm | Permalink

          The idea of you ‘destroying’ any argument, Andy, is risible! Just because Newmania has smiled upon you – don’t get carried away!

          • steve
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

            margaret howard

            “Our young people are now paying the price for my generation’s greed. Stop blaming outsiders – this disaster is all our own fault.”

            So we take it that when you sell your house you will sell it for what you originally paid for it, and to a young couple just starting out ?

          • margaret howard
            Posted August 17, 2019 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

            Steve

            “So we take it that when you sell your house you will sell it for what you originally paid for it, and to a young couple just starting out ?”

            How old are you?

    • libertarian
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 11:12 am | Permalink

      Andy

      Brexit = more trade

      Venture capital (VC) funding in the UK soared to a record high during the first half of this year, bolstered by a growing appetite for tech investments.
      Funding in VC rose to £4.3bn during the first half of 2019, rising 45 per cent on the same period last year.

    • Narrow Shoulders
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

      More trade in deficit to other nations….. who is getting richer?

    • Fred H
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

      Andy …well done.

      ‘More trade = good. You get richer.

      Less trade = bad. You get poorer.

      Brexit = less trade.

      Simple.’

      A* ….however, you were expected to show some reasoning in the paper. Apply yo the EU trade dept for a job.

    • Original Richard
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

      Not necessarily.

      We have a £100bn/YEAR trading deficit with the EU which we can only correct if we leave.

      • margaret howard
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 11:41 pm | Permalink

        Original Richard

        How are we going to do that? We don’t manufacture much after Mrs Thatcher closed down our industry and turned our economy towards finance and services.

        How is leaving the EU going to solve that?

        • Edward2
          Posted August 16, 2019 at 7:38 am | Permalink

          It was the industrial revolution in emerging countries like Korea China and India that brought about our move from the old heavy manufacturing industries. It was unstoppable.
          It happened in every developed economy.
          PS
          You underestimate how big and very profitable our current manufacturing industry is.

          • Mitchel
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 9:49 am | Permalink

            It was the Japanese occupation/colonisation of Korea,Taiwan and Inner Manchuria(now northern China)which kick-started industrialisation in those countries.

  19. Richard1
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:53 am | Permalink

    I suggest Boris sees whether Trump has any interest in reviving the excellent idea the President proposed at his first G7 summit – the universal abolition of global tariffs. Might be difficult to bring about short term, but would be an excellent idea and a call at the G7 would give it impetus. It would also be a route for president trump to dig himself out of the hole which he has dug with the China trade war, which isn’t working as it seems.

    Of course the reaction of France and Germany will be interesting, as such a policy would drive a coach and horses through EU protectionist polices like the CAP.

  20. BritInDeutschland
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:54 am | Permalink

    “Our early years in the EEC were particularly damaging with substantial deindustrialisation” What years are talking about 1973-1979 or even after Mrs Thatcher came to power?
    Reply Yes, the 1970s

  21. Leaver
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:57 am | Permalink

    I was very disappointed by Ms Pelosi’s comments. I’ve never understood the U.S obsession with Ireland. It seems to rule out any deal in the short term, and put us at the mercy of the Taoiseach.

    • agricola
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:24 am | Permalink

      In certain States there must be a big Irish vote.

    • Pete S
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:01 am | Permalink

      Millions and millions emigrated, and they hold a grudge a very long time.

    • forthurst
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:03 am | Permalink

      US foreign policy is determined by domestic politics. Just ask yourself why a real American of European ancestry should be so hung up about the Middle East?

      • Mitchel
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

        I can think of two external actors who greatly influence American foreign policy.

    • IanT
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:22 am | Permalink

      Very simple US politics – the ‘Irish’ vote is important in the US – Americans have a rosy view of Ireland. Romantic black shirted characters (in John Wayne/Kate O’Hara ‘Irish’ movies) who were the romantic freedom fighters smiling from the shadows.

      When I used to visit our US factories, there were collections in the pub/bar after work for the IRA to “support the struggle”. It was hard to make them understand the terrible damage this money caused in the UK. I guess after 9/11 – ‘terrorism’ came a lot nearer home and became a lot less romantic.

    • Caterpillar
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:56 am | Permalink

      Agreed. It seems that the Democrats are against the UK being an independent democratic country.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

      Yes, Ireland is far more powerful in these matters than England is now. It has twenty-six nations of four hundred and fifty million people resolutely behind it, and a powerful lobby in the US too.

      But we tried to explain, that a Leave vote was one to be less influential than Ireland or even than Malta in principle, yet you would not listen.

      • steve
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:59 pm | Permalink

        MiC

        And yet Ireland is screwed when we leave the EU, and they’re terrified of it, because they know that when the EU plan to divide the UK fails….Ireland will be of no strategic use whatsoever to the EU. It’ll just be a burden.

        Powerful ?

        Precarious more like.

        • Martin in Cardiff
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

          We’ll see, won’t we?

          The UK Government’s “we’ve got your kid” approach has been noted, right around the world.

          As Nancy Pelosi remarked.

          • Edward2
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 7:40 am | Permalink

            If you look at the Withdrawal Agreement it is the total opposite outcome of that.
            It is a desperately poor result of incompetent negotiation.

        • margaret howard
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 11:51 pm | Permalink

          Steve

          The EU had no interest or plan to divide the UK – the Brexiteers have managed it all by themselves.

          When Ireland and Scotland leave the union, which was after all foisted on them through the use of the gun, they will be more than welcome to become independent EU members.

          And why should Ireland be a burden? The Irish have done extremely well in America. It was the appalling treatment they received at the hand of England over the centuries that kept their own country in poverty.

          • Fred H
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 7:43 am | Permalink

            MH– your last para leaves me speechless – you have excelled yourself.

          • steve
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 5:16 pm | Permalink

            margaret howard

            “The EU had no interest or plan to divide the UK – the Brexiteers have managed it all by themselves.”

            Ireland, hiding behind it’s EU masters, is attempting a grab on Northern Ireland. If you can’t see that, you’re not very astute.

            We are not dividing anything, you will find it’s the Scottish far right SNP who are making all the threats in that respect, some of which it must be said arguably border on blatant racism toward the English.

            Perhaps they don’t want free prescriptions and all the other perks they get at our expense, maybe they don’t want the jobs we provide. Perhaps if they hate us that much we should show them the door.

            “When Ireland and Scotland leave the union, which was after all foisted on them through the use of the gun, they will be more than welcome to become independent EU members.”

            You see Margaret there’s a number of things wrong with your interpretation. Firstly I would point out that Ireland is not in the Union.

            That just leaves Scotland, and again you are incorrect. We did not force Scotland into the 1706 act of the Union using guns as you suggest. Remember Scotland built a fleet and tried it on with the Royal Navy…..Panama I believe.

            Naturally Scotland lost, found itself bankrupt….hence the act of Union. And my God have they whinged on ever since. Time to cut ’em loose I suggest.

            Besides I for one am sick and tired of Scotland jumping into bed with other anyone whom they perceive as enemies of the nasty English toories. I’m also sick and tired of the often racist Scottish ‘NATIONALIST ‘ party’s threats.

            Let them go and join the EU on their own, as you suggest. But they won’t have our currency, or the jobs we provide or the perks they get at our expense……then we can all have a right laugh when they start complaining that they’re enslaved by the EU and not independent after all.

            They fail to grasp the reality that today no one is alive who was responsible for the highland clearances, none of us set fire to their ancestors houses and flung them out into the wilderness.

      • Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:11 pm | Permalink

        Good grief, Martin! You are so arrogant, it’s quite breathtaking!

        (Are you a Libdem, by any chance?)

    • Mitchel
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 1:15 pm | Permalink

      Likewise the large Polish emigration in the 19th century has coloured US attitudes to Eastern Europe ever since.

    • Ferdia
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

      There was a good programme on bbc2 last evening by Peter Taylor journalist in NI for fifty years explained a lot about how the Ireland was mistreated by English indifference over the years, and in an earlier time 1 million died in the famine millions more emigrated, maybe three million, mostly to N.America- their descendants have not forgotton- black 47 and the evictions. Pelosi has followed the NI situation in Ireland and the Good Friday agreement very closely and is not going to see it damaged or threatened in any way- so better think again

      • Fred H
        Posted August 16, 2019 at 7:42 am | Permalink

        Ferdia – – -I imagine you have no idea that small villages up and down England collected money they could barely afford to give on hearing of the Irish potato famine and the hardship created. Please don’t write such inaccurate rubbish. If you feel you have a point, explain how the ‘few’ people in power might have treated Ireland less than favourably, but don’t slag off the common people.

        • steve
          Posted August 16, 2019 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

          Fred H

          Oh no, it was us what did it ! You, me, and anyone else you can think of.

          The fact that no one is alive who was around at the time of the famine doesn’t come into it……..it was us personally.

          All I can surmise is that we’d better start seeing some respect coming from Ireland and very soon, since after brexit they might depend on the nasty English for their trade routes, and we might not be so soft in the future.

    • Terry
      Posted August 16, 2019 at 10:08 am | Permalink

      So you are now finding out what the worldis really like, rather than how you would like it to be. It would have been better for all of us if you had understood US politics before you voted for your fantasy “we hold all the cards” brexit

      • Edward2
        Posted August 17, 2019 at 7:51 am | Permalink

        That is a silly comment because it is leave fans who have a world view and a desire to connect with a thriving world outside the EU.

        We have many cards but for three years have not played them.

  22. Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:01 am | Permalink

    Just like some socialist politicians want to control our habits with taxation, so some also want to control the actions of other nations by taxing (adding a tariff) to goods traded.
    The real answer of course is better diplomacy, leading by example, and high natured talks without threats.
    Labour defined the carrot and stick approach to controlling the people of the UK, but I’ve yet to see any carrots….. Likewise there are better alternatives to tariffs that only punish.
    When people/nations stop talking to each other and erect restriction of one kind or another on what can be discussed/traded then conflict will occur. We should step away from confrontation and teach politicians the real art of diplomacy without compromising integrity.

  23. Richard1
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:03 am | Permalink

    The US Democrat ms Pelosi says she will oppose any US-UK trade deal if Brexit undermines the NI GFA. It should be easy for the govt to confirm that the UK govt will under no circs undermine the GFA eg by putting up a hard border in NI. So in the unlikely event there is ever such a border it will have been put up by order of the EU. And it’s main purpose will be to keep terrifying US farm produce out of the EU. US voters will rightly conclude that such a measure by the EU would be unnecessary, hostile and of course mean that it is the EU, not the UK, which is threatening the GFA. Boris should go to Washington and explain this clearly.

  24. Mick
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:12 am | Permalink

    Off topic
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1165839/brexit-news-jeremy-corbyn-boris-johnson-general-election-no-deal-eu-negotiation
    This is just speak for let’s stop Brexit full stop, if any MPs votes to bring Boris down then they are really voting to stop Brexit and overturn the democratic will of the people to leave the dreaded Eu , when we do hopefully leave on October 31st then I hope the likes of Sir John makes a list of all the MPs of any parties that have gone full out to stop us leaving so there respective constituents will see who as been a true patriot of Great Britain when they come to vote in a General Election

    • steve
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:09 am | Permalink

      Mick

      “I hope the likes of Sir John makes a list of all the MPs of any parties that have gone full out to stop us leaving so there respective constituents will see who as been a true patriot of Great Britain when they come to vote in a General Election”

      Oh don’t worry, the patriotic element of this country has their names on a list. They’ll be ‘got’ you can be sure.

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted August 16, 2019 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

        It wasn’t their fault that you messed up in life, Steve.

        Stop blaming others.

    • Ian!
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:23 am | Permalink

      A remain parliament that will fight its people to the death. They lied in their manifestos they lied when they past the law to leave. They are still lying today, as Sir John as shown time and time again there is No Deal on offer from anywhere that permits the UK to become an independent self governing country. The Only deal on offer keeps the EU in control of the UK destiny

      You would have to believe they are freighted of the responsibility of government. Taking orders from a foreign power good, governing for the people bad.

    • Shirley
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:36 am | Permalink

      Agreed. Not one of them has explained their logic of rejecting a WTO exit, ie. how we could actually leave the EU if the EU refuses to agree an acceptable deal.

      They should be more honest and say they want to keep us in the EU against the will of the electorate, and are quite happy to destroy democracy (unless we give the ‘right’ result).

      • Andy
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 1:53 pm | Permalink

        They have all explained their logic.

        They, rightly, say that however angry you are now – very I guess – you will be a hell of a lot angrier when Brexit negatively impacts your life, or the life of your loved ones.

        Perhaps your children or grandchildren will lose their jobs. Maybe your medicines will run out. Perhaps the increase in food prices will leave you unable to pay your bills. If you want to inflict this on yourself then that is up to you.

        But you want to inflict it on everyone else too. And MPs represent all of us – not just the loudest and angriest.

        • Edward2
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

          Medicines won’t run out.
          Planes will fly.
          Food will not get more expensive.
          You are being silly.
          Project Fear 2.0 is even more ridiculous and hilarious than the failed predictions of Project Fear 1.0

          • steve
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 11:05 am | Permalink

            Edward 2

            “Food will not get more expensive.”

            Actually Edward it probably will. Remember how retailers ripped the country off when we went decimal?

            No reason to suppose they won’t try this again and blame it on brexit.

          • Edward2
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

            Well that is a different argument.
            Prices wont go up because we leave the EU in my opinion.
            With more home produced food and free trade deals with nations currently hit by EU protectionist tariffs prices could fall.

          • bill brown
            Posted August 18, 2019 at 8:32 am | Permalink

            Edward2

            A government report published this morning contradicts your conclusions

        • steve
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

          Andy

          “you will be a hell of a lot angrier when Brexit negatively impacts your life”

          You see Andy what you fail to understand is that we’re British, we know things will be difficult, but we’ll shine through because we’re British. We believe in ourselves and our sovereign island.

          “Perhaps the increase in food prices will leave you unable to pay your bills”

          I very much doubt that. Price increases could be offset by growing your own. Investing in a few hens would be a smart idea. Perhaps also solid fuel AGA. Though I do admit putting food on the table requires effort, savvy, and bullish determination, so probably not for you as I doubt you have any survival skills.

          “But you want to inflict it on everyone else too”

          Not at all, Andy. You’re welcome to go and live in your beloved EU if you want.

          • margaret howard
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 12:00 am | Permalink

            Steve – where exactly will people grow their own food in their London/Manchester/Leeds flat or keep their hens or pig?

            Being British and living in a sovereign island won’t be enough when that island will be reduced to just the English part with about as much influence on world affairs as Liechtenstein.

          • Edward2
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 7:43 am | Permalink

            Have a look at the relative population , size and GDP of Lichtenstein and the UK before you make such ridiculous comments.

        • Fred H
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:20 pm | Permalink

          I have noticed the MPs for the majority of the last 3 years have certainly NOT represented me at all.

          • steve
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 11:02 am | Permalink

            Margaret Howard

            “Steve – where exactly will people grow their own food in their London/Manchester/Leeds flat or keep their hens or pig?

            On the roof, excepting the pig. There are many rooftop gardens in city areas. You don’t have to grow much, just enough to help offset living costs and have a sense of achievement.

            Then there’s allotments….which were used to great effect during the war for those who didn’t have a garden.

            And……by doing this it would bring people together for a common purpose, and build community spirit. It worked before when we ‘dug for victory’ it’ll work again. The important thing is we need to move away from reliance on those who decide how much we spend and towards more self sufficiency.

            “Being British and living in a sovereign island won’t be enough when that island will be reduced to just the English part with about as much influence on world affairs as Liechtenstein.”

            Firstly why would we need influence on world affairs ? Look how many lives that has cost. Usually going to rescue the French from mess of their own instigation.

            No, I don’t advocate getting involved in world influence. Preferably we should keep our nose out but be armed to the teeth so if anyone does try it on with us we’ll make short work of them.

            “…..will be reduced to just the English part”

            I don’t see anything wrong with that, after all look how the peripheral minorities have jumped at the opportunity to stab the English in the back. Always eager to jump in bed with any perceived enemy of the English.

            Perhaps stopping free prescriptions, cease funding any of their services, repatriating our share of anything built with English tax payer’s money, ending all the perks they get from us simply because they’re not English…..would save us a bob or two.

            Also move the Naval dockyards, and put HMRC on our side of the border as it should be.

            Then when they’re screwed we won’t have to listen to their incessant whinging about us bad English toories.

        • Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:16 pm | Permalink

          ”… the loudest and angriest…” Oh, the irony!

          Would you care to give us an undertaking that you will get back to us when all is well after Brexit and tell us that you were wrong? Give it a year, say, and if you and your imaginary children haven’t starved to death by then, come and eat a few words.

    • Mockbeggar
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:54 am | Permalink

      My understanding is that the EU, under the terms of the current extension of Article 50 can, if it decides that no progress is being made towards reaching a withdrawal agreement, declare unilaterally that the extension is terminated and Britain is kicked out of the EU there and then.

      I find it interesting, in view of its repeated assertions that there can be no change to Mrs May’s Withdrawal Agreement, that the EU hasn’t done this already.

      Perhaps it may be thinking of changing its position after all and that its current refusal to budge is merely a negotiating strategy to match Boris’s 31st October or bust.

      • steve
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 2:29 pm | Permalink

        Mockbeggar

        “I find it interesting, in view of its repeated assertions that there can be no change to Mrs May’s Withdrawal Agreement, that the EU hasn’t done this already.”

        I thought that too, but concluded it more likely they’re stuffed without the UK in the EU as a subservient vassal. Firstly they need the money, secondly they need somewhere to put migrants, thirdly they want us to have a humiliating and costly climbdown so as to teach us a lesson in front of any other country thinking about leaving.

        They, in particular the french, wish to plunder our resources.

        I think we had done enough for Europe on the Normandy beaches. We owe them nothing – in fact they owe us.

        It’s time to walk away and not trade with them at all, quite frankly.

        • Fred H
          Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

          I look forward to the day.

        • Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

          Spot on, Steve. Especially the penultimate paragraph.

        • Martin in Cardiff
          Posted August 16, 2019 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

          “We”? Normandy???

          How old are you Steve?

          Hilarious.

          My late father survived some of the bloodiest fighting in WWII. He must be splitting his sides.

  25. Newmania
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:19 am | Permalink

    …and some of this BS stats will be making their final appearance tonight ladies and gentlemen ! Come on John tell us new joke .
    The South East as an economy outside London (larger by far than many countries )transacts the vast majority of its trade internally. It would therefore be fine to erect customs barriers between each region …… Nonsense obviously; and while the US may wish to bully Mexico( and the UK ) , if Mexico wished to bully the US we would think it had lost its marbles ….. where are out marbles by the way ?
    WTO does nothing for most of our economy to start with which is de-industrialised because we are better at services ( its called comparative advantage ) and it is this section that is most vulnerable to the loss of the single market.
    In Insurance UK domiciled security is henceforth inadmissible for its European consumers . EEA security , on the other hand , is admitted into the uk for two years ..oh never mind . Its complicated. ( I sometimes wonder if we get the daily fishing update because its the only business politicians understand Pull out fish-Sell fish -Duh..Got it )

    What else have we got then .. a cheer for protectionism ( aka taking back market share) and the hilarious suggestion that the EU was responsible for de industrialisation in the 70s Are you quite seriously going to make that argument knowing grown ups may read it ?
    John Redwood is an exceptionally gifted and knowledgeable man. He knows perfectly well this is gibberish, what a mess we are in.

    • steve
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:32 pm | Permalink

      Newmania

      “…..de-industrialised because we are better at services”

      Total rubbish. We were de-industrialised as part of a plan to dumb down Gt Britain.

      “…..hilarious suggestion that the EU was responsible for de industrialisation in the 70s.

      The Europeans played their part in the treachery, but ultimately the responsibility rests with the politicians who were in office at the time, and their successors who did nothing about it.

      Also it must be said the Unions, but they were of the activist mentality, always ready to make any issue political.

  26. Alan Jutson
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:31 am | Permalink

    What a mess the politicians and the leaders of Countries are making of the World.

    What a mess many politicians are making of our own Country, in switching Parties, pretending to go along with policies, but then opposing them at the last minute, wanting elections and referendums, but then playing with the result if it does not suit them.

    • acorn
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:08 am | Permalink

      Elective dictatorship? (Google>) The democratic mandate concept has become dangerously over-extended. Nat le Roux at LSE wrote:

      Against the background of a general breakdown of public confidence in the political elite, politicians on both left and right have seen themselves not as part of a broader governing elite but as outsiders, empowered by their democratic mandate to shake up government and make it more responsive to the wishes of the people.

      Nat le Roux argues that taken to its logical extreme, the end point of this doctrine is an impoverished political ecology in which the only actor is an omni-competent centralised executive, constrained only by periodic popular election.

      • Mitchel
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

        See Vladimir Putin’s Interview in the FT ahead of the last G20 meeting.

    • Everhopeful
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:13 am | Permalink

      Alan Jutson
      It’s all a game to them.
      But it isn’t a game to us.
      It’s our lives.

    • Julie Williams
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:18 am | Permalink

      Yes, they are building up a big bill in voter patience and it will have to be paid.
      Once Brexit is out of the way, the Tories will only regain my vote with a manifesto involving massive reform of our political systems.
      Any MP that doesn’t stand for re-election when crossing the House should be forced to do so.The old cop-out that they are elected to “represent” not follow the wishes of their electorate as expressed in a party manifesto is complete nonsense due to the development of party politics since the late 18 century when this concept was floated…and while they are at it, MPs that lose the whip should stand for ‘re-election.

    • libertarian
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 11:14 am | Permalink

      Alan Jutson

      Nail on the head , politicians are the problem. Interference and geopolitical power plays are what cause the worlds problems. Me need much less politics and much more FREE markets

  27. Kevin
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:43 am | Permalink

    To meet our needs after 31 October with or without an EU Agreement. With
    only eleven weeks to go, how could it possibly even be safe to contemplate
    making a fresh agreement for exit on Halloween? How much time would be
    made available for poring over its undoubtedly complex provisions? If you don’t
    yet have a clear picture of our exit, I doubt it will happen without Mr. Farage.

  28. Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:43 am | Permalink

    Qu, Australia and Singapore and UAE are places which I know and love.
    When I last looked, none of them were in the Single Market.
    All of them work in their very individual and diverse ways.

  29. Everhopeful
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 7:50 am | Permalink

    More “strategic” than moral surely?
    Moral? 😂

  30. David Taylor
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:14 am | Permalink

    Trade is important , over regulation & political interference drags it down , the EU loves regulations & directives .

    The EU is not a free trade bloc , it is an over regulated trade bloc & attempt at a Federal Europe , with charges paid by a countries EU contributions .

    Britain should have left in 2016.

  31. Everhopeful
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:46 am | Permalink

    EU playing hardball with us in a very arrogant way.
    Surely they want/need to sell us their goods ( 6/10 lorries leaving this country are empty…speeding off to pick up stuff from the EU).
    If we are pushed into the US sphere of influence the EU won’t sell much cheese and wine to us. Not to mention all the other items we have been soft enough to stop producing ( in order to?) boost their sales/ production.

  32. Anonymous
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:56 am | Permalink

    The problems is that ALL of our domestic trade is funded by our international trade.

    • Fred H
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 8:27 pm | Permalink

      nonsense. If we could manage without importing anything, we would continue to trade amongst ourselves. Specialisms result in business, I make loaves to barter for veg which you grow, he rears cattle for milk and meat. Eventually we decide to use money. Get the idea?

  33. Denis Cooper
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:05 am | Permalink

    Off topic, the Irish Times has declined my latest offering, which is about Section 10 of the EU withdrawal act, so I will now try my luck with the Irish Independent.

    It is understandable that Theresa May wished to suppress all public knowledge of this provision, WHICH IS ALREADY PART OF OUR LAW, because it was a central element of her strategy that the UK should gratuitously take responsibility for preventing the EU and the Irish government from putting up a hard border on their side:

    http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/10/16/how-not-to-negotiate-with-the-eu/#comment-966790

    “Theresa May, Mansion House speech, March 2 2018:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pm-speech-on-our-future-economic-partnership-with-the-european-union

    “We have been clear all along that we don’t want to go back to a hard border in Ireland. We have ruled out any physical infrastructure at the border, or any related checks and controls.

    But it is not good enough to say, ‘We won’t introduce a hard border; if the EU forces Ireland to do it, that’s down to them’. We chose to leave; we have a responsibility to help find a solution … ”

    Anyway here is the letter I have sent, with supporting references:

    “Sir

    I wonder how many of your readers are aware of Section 10 of the UK’s European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018?

    Not only has the UK government repeatedly pledged that it will do nothing new to impede the present free movement across the Irish land border, that clear pledge has already been put into UK law by that provision, which is cross-headed:

    “Continuation of North-South co-operation and the prevention of new border arrangements”.

    Therefore when the EU and the Irish government insist upon the “backstop” as “an insurance policy”, that could only be to insure against the EU and the Irish government doing something stupid and unnecessary on their side of the border.

    Why both “stupid”, and “unnecessary”?

    Because it is also already in UK law that all goods being exported across that border must continue to conform to EU standards for the foreseeable future after the UK has left the EU, and so will no more need to be intercepted and inspected at the border than they do now.

    Yours etc.”

    • Ken Smith
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

      Denis, those commitments are not binding under international law so of course they are useless and irrelevant to Ireland and the EU

      • Sir Joe Soap
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

        Then what was the point of them being put there? Are we paying people to waste their time on this stuff?

      • acorn
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

        There are no fraudsters; bootleggers; counterfeiters; carpetbaggers and traffickers in Denis’s world. Naive or what? Those bandits will turn up on the EU border in Ireland. Just as they have turned up at the other 41 land borders the EU has. Even Switzerland, frequently quoted on this site as an example of a post Brexit “borderless” model, still has 22,000 Customs Officers.

        • Denis Cooper
          Posted August 16, 2019 at 5:15 am | Permalink

          On the contrary, in my world these problems are more or less universal and there are well-established methods of dealing with them which do not involve routinely stopping and searching random vehicles on the roads, whether at an international border or elsewhere. I wonder if you are even aware of the existing close co-operation between the customs authorities north and south of the border in Ireland, which could be intensified if both sides wished to do so.

          • acorn
            Posted August 16, 2019 at 7:51 am | Permalink

            I am aware of the cooperation between customs authorities in Ireland and between Ireland and the UK. Simply because they are all working to the same EU Customs Union manuals!

            Ireland is recruiting 400+ new customs officers to deal with the increase from 1.6 million customs declarations with EU third countries to an estimated 10 to 20 million when the UK becomes an EU designated third country.

          • Denis Cooper
            Posted August 20, 2019 at 8:24 am | Permalink

            So in your world the customs authorities of different countries can only ever co-operate if they are working to the same customs manual. That is why the Australians can never co-operate with the Americans, and the Japanese can never co-operate with the Dutch … sometimes you say the most stupid things.

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

        So what you are saying is that Ireland and the EU cannot rely upon the UK government to obey UK law. Well, in that case they could also not rely upon the UK government to obey a UK law to ratify a withdrawal agreement. It’s nice to know our “friends” and “partners” have that opinion of us.

    • Borderfox
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

      Denis- you still don’t get it- nobody over here cares two hoots about your English/ UK Laws- the people have decided- let me repeat- ‘the Irish people have decided North and South’- there will no border- maybe two administrations but no border- the EU is also put on notice- No Border on the Island of Ireland. The Irish will muster all the friends they have at home and abroad to see to this- and nothing at all to do with Varadkar- any attempt to put a border will be swept aside

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted August 16, 2019 at 5:18 am | Permalink

        And you obviously don’t get it that the Irish people could only be fighting the forces of the Republic because the UK government has no intention of making any changes at all at the border, and it would be illegal for them to do so.

        • Terry
          Posted August 16, 2019 at 10:13 am | Permalink

          Are you aware Denis that the UK can change UK law? And the Uk doesnt need Irish approval for that. Do you see the problem now?

          • Denis Cooper
            Posted August 20, 2019 at 8:29 am | Permalink

            The UK can change UK law, including that Section 10, but then by the same token the UK could also change the UK law to ratify any agreement with the EU which included a commitment not to change Section 10. Either there is trust or there is no trust, and if the EU is not prepared to trust the UK then there is no point in even having further discussions.

      • steve
        Posted August 16, 2019 at 2:29 pm | Permalink

        Borderfox

        “The Irish will muster all the friends they have at home and abroad to see to this- and nothing at all to do with Varadkar- any attempt to put a border will be swept aside”

        Unless of course your masters in Brussels make you do otherwise.

  34. Gareth Warren
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:35 am | Permalink

    I believe that while brexit is about re-establishing sovereignty, trade will be how people will judge its success. It is vital that government opens the UK to the widest array of imports with as many FTA’s as possible.

    For years now the alternative media has been warning about the risk of recession. here I think we are now seeing a worldwide recession. The difference is that Trump is in effect exporting the supply loss from the USA to China and Germany by encouraging local production.

    Here, by joining with US anti-Chinese influence efforts and welcoming US and commonwealth imports we can also share the benefits over the coming years.

    • Mitchel
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

      You may not like the Chinese but joining an anti-Chinese front will be akin to the Ottoman Empire needlessly (and fatally)joining the Central Powers in WWI

      • Gareth Warren
        Posted August 16, 2019 at 1:15 pm | Permalink

        The Chinese are already doing a sterling job building an anti-Chinese alliance with their 9 dash line policy.

        While we are a long way from war with them I do not believe we help anyone by actively supporting their efforts. I do not see any comparison with the Ottomans, here we would be siding with the democratic USA.

  35. Iain Moore
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:46 am | Permalink

    I am sorry off topic, but I find the BBC completely out of control. There is no pretense of impartiality anymore, everyday they are gaming with Remainer MPs how to stop Brexit , NewsNight last night was pretty much all that, Emma Barnett’s programme this morning is asking the question who is best to take down Boris’s Government? The amount of anger, fury, poison they are pumping into the national discourse is totally irresponsible , they are even trying to suggest Boris Johnson saying ‘collaborations’ ( though I struggle to find another word to describe all the Remainer MPs who went to visit Barnier) is the sort of incitement that resulted in Jo Cox’s death. I would suggest if there is any incitement that leads to people snapping is what they are doing.

    • Oggy
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

      Iain I totally agree. I saw one BBC news reader a couple of weeks ago literally ask a ‘think tank’ rep ‘how do WE stop Brexit ?’
      But they are just pandering to the London bubble, all the BBC’s BS, bile and venom doesn’t wash up here in the north. By and large we all hate the EU, it’s cronies and all it stands for.

  36. ukretired123
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    Amazing Sir John Redwood has to tolerate some useful EU idiots who invade this site. As an Economics graduate myself I marvel how the internet (another British key invention) brings us so close to hearing his daily treats of his hard won wisdom. I count myself lucky enough to hear them.
    But casting pearls before swine ….allows me to skip over many frothy comments, usually as soon as the first line you know everything that follows will be downhill.
    …as life is too short
    You only have to meet some idiots for 5 minutes but they have to live a lifetime with it.

    • BritInDeutschland
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

      Dear uk123, ever heard of Leonard Kleinrock, Robert Taylor and JCT Licklider all linked to developments of the first network, packet switching, and ARPA/ARPANET/Xerox, and all US citizens. BTW Internet is different from World Wide Web.

      • ukretired123
        Posted August 15, 2019 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

        ARPANET gave due credit to Welshman who pioneered packet switching and who also challenged the great Alan Turing on computational number theory prior to that. Let wiki enlighten you:
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Davies
        Very interesting n’est pas?

        • BritInDeutschland
          Posted August 16, 2019 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

          You must be right but in computer studies related to networks and the like I had never heard of him. Would you say the curriculum in some UK universities is biased against the British Greats?

    • Bob Dixon
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

      Could not agree more.

    • Oggy
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

      Not only idiots but obnoxious and bigoted too.

  37. kzb
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    There is a fundamental problem with import tariffs and how we implement after Brexit.
    To take advantage of lower food prices outside the EU single market, we need to drop our tariffs on such items. However, that will likely put our own farmers out of business. They face increased competition at home when not in the protectionist EU, yet they face high import tariffs into the EU.
    Worse, if we drop our tariffs to zero, what incentive does the EU (or anyone else) have for granting a free trade deal? Any answers?

    • AlmostDead
      Posted August 16, 2019 at 1:10 am | Permalink

      There is no fundamental problem. The Brexit opportunity is improve our overall productivity by getting all UK businesses to compete at world pricing. If UK farmers can’t compete so be it. We can import food from China, South America, US, etc. Reducing our tariff schedule to zero would be a step in the right direction. Getting FTAs is highly over-rated anyway.

  38. Iain Gill
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 10:58 am | Permalink

    Free trade with countries using child labour, more polluting processes than our industry is allowed to use, less safety kit than would be allowed here, not paying their licences and other “intellectual property” fees properly… etc should not be done on a level playing field.

    Otherwise we are in a one way race to the lowest standards worldwide.

    • AlmostDead
      Posted August 16, 2019 at 1:13 am | Permalink

      Having “high” standards should not be the goal, instead goods should be labelled so consumers can make the choice.

  39. Lorna
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    I agree with Sir John’s wise comments .However the concern of farmers is more to do with exporting especially to the EU if we fail to have an agreement On trade !

    • steve
      Posted August 16, 2019 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

      Lorna

      They can supply to us instead.

  40. Sir Joe Soap
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

    MP Wollaston 3/2/2016 Hansard:
    “The Prime Minister has set out the many things that remain to be reformed, but if this grudging and threadbare deal is the best the EU is prepared to concede, what serious hope is there of meaningful renegotiation if or when we are tied in long term under a referendum?”

    MP Wollaston 15/8/2019
    Joins the Libdems via another failure party and wants to remain in the EU regardless.

    This is why we need radical change.

    • Ed M
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 2:59 pm | Permalink

      ‘This is why we need radical change’

      – What is the ultimate cause of this trouble? Socialism? Social Liberalism? Yes, to a degree. But what is ultimately behind these? It’s The Fall in The Garden of Eden – Original Sin.

      Ever since The Fall of man, this world has been screwed up from one degree to another. People have tried to be ‘radical’ politically, but when they do this, they just end up being Utopian with dreadful results (at its most extreme: Communism / Nazism).

      We need some political change for sure, but it has to be underpinned by a radical change of hearts and minds – at a moral and spiritual level. This is the real problem. This is more-a-less the basic philosophy of Edmund Burke – at its most fundamental level – Edmund Burke, the main philosophical founder of British Conservatism!

      Until The Conservative Party and The UK return to its Traditional Christian roots, our country will continue to slip and slide from one crisis to another, whether it be single parents, violent street crime in our capital city, high tax action and people taking advantage of the state, corruption, lack of patriotism, lack of public duty, and so on.

  41. Denis Cooper
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    As I have said before I think that in general the overall economic impact of special trade deals is vastly exaggerated, whether it is a EU-US deal or a UK-US deal or a EU-UK deal. Marginal off-one increases in GDP, equivalent to just a few weeks or a few months of natural economic growth at the UK trend rate of 2.5% a year. It is in my view a very foolish mistake to allow the mass media to project the idea that our economic future after we leave the EU will depend on getting a special trade deal with the US.

  42. Denis Cooper
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

    Off topic, JR, do you know if/when Michael Gove’s rapid rebuttal unit is actually going to start rebutting anything? Anti-Brexit propaganda is being churned out day after day and I still don’t hear any rebuttals from the government in defence of its central policy. Is there, or will there be, a blog like this short-lived effort to defend Theresa May’s deal?

    https://brexitfacts.blog.gov.uk/

    “This blog will set out facts relating to the Brexit agreement the government has reached with the European Union. It will offer rebuttal to criticisms and inaccurate reporting in the lead up to Parliament’s meaningful vote on the deal.”

    Just seven posts over two weeks.

  43. BillM
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

    To coin a phrase, “Not a lot of people know that”!
    Your finale above , SJ, “The ERM debacle hit our growth rate badly. Our growth rate has been slower in the single market than before we joined”, was not published during any of the Leave Campaign pitches although it is true and a damning of EU membership. So not a lot of people knew that at the time.
    Had the Leave Campaign done so and with vigour, I suggest even more “Don’t knows” would have been swayed to vote “Leave” and not ‘Remain’. Many of the latter may well have been frightened into voting for the EU because of those false scare stories laid upon them. Which are now proven lies.
    However, given the blinkered Remainers with tunnel vision, nothing short of a Leave majority of 99% would have made them accept democracy. What has gone wrong here in Britain in the 21st Century?
    We have been sliding on the democratic downhill slope ever since Mrs Thatcher was removed because of her pro-Britain and anti-EU principles.
    So, I do hope Boris is going to take us back to the future when Britain was a respected Nation across the Globe.

  44. APL
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:10 pm | Permalink

    JR: “Trade wars?”

    China has been conducting a defacto trade war against the West since, Edward Heath first visited the Communist Peoples republic.

    They along with the other far east countries have been successful in denuding the West of much of its industrial capacity.

    If it’s out in the open, now. So much the better.

    • AlmostDead
      Posted August 16, 2019 at 1:15 am | Permalink

      Thats called competition.

      • graham1946
        Posted August 16, 2019 at 8:26 pm | Permalink

        No, its called dumping.

        • AlmostDead
          Posted August 16, 2019 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

          Global Britain should be able to compete without calling everything dumping. Poor sports.

  45. BillM
    Posted August 15, 2019 at 6:26 pm | Permalink

    Regarding Trade wars. It seems that many would blame the American President for starting these “Wars”. All Mr Trump wants is “Fair trading”. When you consider that for decades, the EU and Chinese tariff on USA Vehicle imports was around 10% whereas the USA tariff on vehicles imported from those States was just 3%, you may wonder why the USA tolerated such a huge disparity for decades! Previous administrations did nothing to address it. Probably through incompetence or ignorance of the facts.
    In comes Mr Trump, a seasoned and successful professional very rich businessman who rightly decides that the American people are being ripped off.
    Shock and horror reverberates across Europe and China. Only because they have always seen the USA as a soft touch and then believe it now just a bluff. The Trade War, if you want to call it that, has actually been started not by the USA but by those seeking to retaliate. All they have to do is equalise ALL Tariffs. However, such has been their dealings with very weak Whitehouse administrations in the past they have wrongly considered Mr Trump as just another dumb American President. LOL. The USA has a current yearly Trade Deficit approaching a Half a Trillion Dollars with the EU and China. Now I wonder just who has the most to lose?

    • Ian!
      Posted August 15, 2019 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

      @BillM – Agreed.

      There is fair and equal trade, then there is the trade that is weaponized by protectionist blocks.

      Most national standards and regulations while they might start out as benign finish up as protectionist barriers.

      Most consumer purchases outside of the EU are some 10-20% cheaper for exactly the same item. As always with corrupt governments it is the people that pay

    • margaret howard
      Posted August 16, 2019 at 12:19 am | Permalink

      Bill

      ” When you consider that for decades, the EU and Chinese tariff on USA Vehicle imports was around 10% ”

      Irrespective of tariffs nobody in the EU or China could afford or want to buy American gas guzzling cars. The US petrol prices were a fraction of those paid by us in Europe.

      In fact the Americans were very keen on our cars because our industry had started making smaller vehicles which catered for the modern consumers.

      • Edward2
        Posted August 16, 2019 at 7:50 am | Permalink

        You miss the point as usual Margaret
        The EU is developing into a protectionist bloc.
        Putting up regulationary and tariff barriers.
        The USA EU vehicle tariff barriers are just one example of that imbalance.

        Developing nations are restricted and find it tough to sell into the EU.
        Coffee and fruit producers for example.
        CAP adds £20 a week to household food bills.

      • BillM
        Posted August 16, 2019 at 11:41 am | Permalink

        Electric vehicles, gas guzzlers? In any case, it’s irrelevant. The point is that the tariffs levied upon the Americans were higher than the Americans levied upon their imports. I singled out vehicles because eg Germany sells $Billions worth to the USA at just 3%. Just think of the income raised if the tariff was 10%.
        America is all but banned from shipping Agricultural Products to the EU because of their dire Protectionist policies, making food more expensive than it should be, That is the problem with the EU. It is run by dictators who wish to protect their Empire. It will fail like all other Dictatorships.

      • steve
        Posted August 16, 2019 at 2:37 pm | Permalink

        margaret howard

        “American gas guzzling cars.”

        The knowledge that America no longer makes gas guzzlers, and hasn’t done for many years, would have prevented you from making such a ridiculous statement.

        But hey ho why let facts get in the way.

  46. Original Richard
    Posted August 16, 2019 at 6:55 am | Permalink

    Brexit is not about trade.

    It is to determine whether or not we are governed by people we can elect and remove, so it is about sovereignty and democracy.

    The world is watching to see if we are still a democracy or whether those in power (Parliament) will overturn the decision they gave the people to make via a referendum.

    There will be many dictators or potential dictators who will delight in seeing our referendum result overturned by Parliament so they can use it as an example the next time a referendum does not produce the answer they wanted. This includes the EU itself.

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    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, He graduated from Magdalen College Oxford, has a DPhil and is a fellow of All Souls College. A businessman by background, he has been a director of NM Rothschild merchant bank and chairman of a quoted industrial PLC.

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