Parliament thwarts the government again

As I thought, the government was not allowed to re run Saturday by tabling the Withdrawal Agreement for another vote today. The Speaker decided that Parliament had the chance to vote for the Agreement on Saturday and had voted instead not to support the Agreement in principle but instead to look at the draft legislation it would need first. That is what the government now wishes to do tomorrow. The votes the government lost on Thursday on procedure and on Saturday over consideration of the Agreement proved lethal to their idea that Parliament would approve the Agreement.

The task remains difficult for the government. It needs to get agreement to a tight timetable for the legislation. It needs the Bill to clear all Commons stages in just three days, so it can pass to the Lords to leave open the chance of completing it by the October 31 deadline. It also needs to secure the Bill without any amendment to the provisions of the Treaty it is seeking to replicate, as that would require the government to go back and seek change from the EU.

The Remain forces in Parliament may try to move a reasoned amendment to the second reading motion of the Bill to attach conditions to it. They may wish to move amendments during committee stage to add a second referendum or a full customs union or single market membership or one of the many other permutations they have argued for over the last long three years since the referendum decision they regret. Anyone of these if carried could be unacceptable to the government, and in some cases could require returning to Brussels for renegotiation were Parliament able and willing to proceed with the legislation despite the government.

The opposition may argue the three days are insufficient for a” long and complex constitutional Bill”, and resist the government pointing out Parliament has talked about little else than this Agreement for almost a year. They could try to vote down the timetable, or seek to impose a longer timetable of their own. There is also the issue of how the Lords will behave if and when they receive the Bill, as it is more difficult to timetable the Lords.

Meanwhile the government may strengthen the Bill with a sovereignty clause to help with the problem of excessive EU powers during the so called Implementation period stretching to December 2020.

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196 Comments

  1. glen cullen
    Posted October 21, 2019 at 7:31 pm | Permalink

    The Speaker of the HoCs commons today said that the government couldn’t return to a question that had already been presented and voted by description nor substance

    Could the same decision ref the referendum result be applied ie you cannot have a second referendum nor represent it by description nor substance

    Double standards

    • Stephen Priest
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 4:04 am | Permalink

      Quadruple standards

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 6:55 am | Permalink

        Well, if it were a topic in Parliament then yes, I suppose so.

        However, at the root of this seems to be the complaint that the UK’s sovereign Parliament refuses to be a mere Rubber Stamping Agency for a rogue, arguably lawless, minority government.

        And yet you berate the European Union’s diligent assembly, quite inaccurately, for being just that.

        What is the matter with you?

        • oldtimer
          Posted October 22, 2019 at 9:32 am | Permalink

          If it is a “a rogue, arguably lawless, minority government” as you state, why has the majority opposition not voted it out of office?

          The rogues here are the opposition, clinging to the salaries, pensions and other perks of office in a hung parliament for fear of being booted out by the electorate.

        • Edward2
          Posted October 22, 2019 at 9:38 am | Permalink

          Martin
          You missed off the bit about the overwhelming majority of those elected to this Parliament promising to implement the result of the referendum in the manifestos they stood on for election .

        • What Tiler
          Posted October 22, 2019 at 9:44 am | Permalink

          I am impressed by your spinning ability; less so by your grasp of the truth. The “rogue, arguably lawless, minority government” has offered the opportunity to hold a GE, by the means of which one traditionally obtains a legitimate government, several times, and that offer has been rejected in favour of the ridiculous and nauseating display of anti-democratic narcissism we we are being force to behold.

        • sm
          Posted October 22, 2019 at 10:24 am | Permalink

          A. I understand it is Government’s prerogative to negotiate Treaties, not Parliament.

          B. ‘Minority government’ – agreed, why not have a…hmmm, let me think….a General Election?!?

        • glen cullen
          Posted October 22, 2019 at 10:44 am | Permalink

          I actually agree, if a question has been voted, amended and passed that should be the end of the matter without any further alteration nor delay in its passage

          The voted and passed referendum should equally be put to an end without further alteration nor delay in its passage

          Can you not see the double stanards

        • Stephen Priest
          Posted October 22, 2019 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

          Apparently our Remain MPs find reading a 100 page document difficult.

          What’s the matter with them?

    • JoolsB
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

      What I don’t understand is they didn’t get to vote on the deal on Saturday so what is that xxxxx little speaker going on about?

      Reply We did vote .The House passed an amendment to the governments motion saying it would not decide the matter until after legislation.

  2. Jasper
    Posted October 21, 2019 at 7:40 pm | Permalink

    Sir John – I am sorry but I have lost the plot with what is now the best course of action. I voted to leave and would have preferred WTO rules. I was sickened by Theresa May’s deal and having now read various opinions I understand Boris’s deal is not much improved!! Do we trust in Boris and hope he delivers or pray we get a General Election. Would you mind summarising what has happened and give me a bit of hope that this will all be over soon. Please do not let us become another Holland or Ireland where their vote was ignored- surely we are better than that!!

    • margaret howard
      Posted October 21, 2019 at 9:36 pm | Permalink

      Jasper

      ” Please do not let us become another Holland or Ireland where their vote was ignored- surely we are better than that!!”

      Not that old chestnut again. Their concerns were listened to and addressed after which they voted again to give their approval.

      That’s more democracy than we ever got after nearly half voted Remain and yet were totally ignored.

      • Edward2
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 6:36 am | Permalink

        In those second referenda the results were also close yet the second result was implemented.
        Odd that.

        • Andy
          Posted October 22, 2019 at 10:00 am | Permalink

          So were the results of the first. Odd that.

        • Edward2
          Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:39 pm | Permalink

          Yes that is true.
          But you refuse to accept the result of the first referendum yet promise to accept the result of the second referendum.
          Odd as you say.

      • MickN
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 6:42 am | Permalink

        “That’s more democracy than we ever got after nearly half voted Remain and yet were totally ignored.”

        So if Labour win the next GE narrowly they will govern having due concern for the wishes of those who voted for other parties would they?
        I think you need to take a couple of reality pills.

        • Andy
          Posted October 22, 2019 at 10:02 am | Permalink

          Yes – because if they win narrowly they have to. Or they lose in Parliament. In any case if you don’t like the result of a general election you get to vote again in five years.

          Tell me when do we get to vote again in an advisory referendum?

      • Sir Joe Soap
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 7:08 am | Permalink

        The government will implement what you decide, NOT the government will jig around abd make you vote again. I wouldn’t vote again having been ignored the first time. Not worth the trip to the polling station.

      • Jasper
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:07 am | Permalink

        Margaret- with all due respect remain lost. The question was asked of the people leave or remain, the answer was leave so in a democracy/civilised society the result should be upheld. The Government said they would honour the result and now parliament are doing whatever they can not to uphold the referendum result- the same in Holland and Ireland whatever way you want to dress it up!

      • a-tracy
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:17 am | Permalink

        The EU were given an opportunity by David Cameron to listen to the concerns of the UK public margaret people like you and them did not listen to them, they didn’t acknowledge them at all and several EU Countries have their own concerns now.

        We were told no EU army with control away from the UK, now we’re hearing Verhofstadt reveal the EU controllers true colours with more and more plans for complete federalisation being revealed. Why wouldn’t a Belgium and Luxembourg parliament class be completely and utterly pro-EU takeover what would their respective countries be like without all the money and power they suck in.

        You ignore the leavers concerns, you want to completely override their decision. As for totally ignored we’ve done NOTHING but listen to the LOSING side for three years!!!!!

        • Andy
          Posted October 22, 2019 at 10:04 am | Permalink

          You have done nothing but yell abuse at the losing side for three years. And you are dragging them – even more against their will than it was in 2016 – to your sunny Brexit uplands. I wonder what you can expect when you finally get there?

          • a-tracy
            Posted October 29, 2019 at 1:02 pm | Permalink

            What absolute twaddle Andy, I haven’t yelled anything at anybody. I’ve read plenty of comments of you abusing people on here in writing though, too much age discrimination from you, lots of decrying, unknown to you, commentators intelligence.

            Which leavers are you accusing of ‘yelling abuse’, all I read on twitter and on JR’s blog is abuse from the remain losers? If I was dragging anybody or anything it would be done by now, if we stayed now what would you be expecting your sunny uplands to look like exactly? More and more people smuggled through the EU into the UK without a glance.

      • Timaction
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:26 am | Permalink

        Nonsense. Hollands vote on visa restrictions from Ukraine citizens was just ignored! Imposing heads of state on Italy and Ireland, Greece. What a memory you have!

      • Euleaver
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 9:44 am | Permalink

        If remain had been ignored we would have left by now. Even though leave won the referendum vote you would not know it by the performance of parliament.

    • Richard
      Posted October 21, 2019 at 10:01 pm | Permalink

      Yes, not much improved from Mrs May’s deal. Bruges Group summary of Boris’s deal: http://www.brugesgroup.com/blog/the-revised-withdrawal-agreement-and-political-declaration-a-briefing-note

      Martin Howe’s “I can understand a political judgement that the revised deal is still a bad deal, but is tolerable” is much quoted to support Boris’s deal, but Howe says also that ‘the deal is bad, and is worse than a no deal alternative’.

      Boris’s deal clearly doesn’t “Get Brexit Done’, but subjugates the UK into a Vassal State, most likely until 2022.

      • Ian Wragg
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 7:19 am | Permalink

        And beyond. The WA has no exit clause and is entirely seperate from the non binding political declaration.
        We will still be under EU control ad infinitum.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 6:57 am | Permalink

      Jasper, you had said it all by your eleventh word, and that has probably been the case for years.

      • Jasper
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

        MIC – 😂 how rude are you, your mother certainly didn’t teach you any manners!!
        Sorry Sir John, I suppose I should just ignore.

    • A.Sedgwick
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:10 am | Permalink

      The Boris Treaty is so bad that if forced, as with BBC tax, to vote between it and Remain, I would vote the latter, and I am as Spartan Leaver as you can get. In reality I would write LEAVE on the ballot paper.

      • Andy
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 10:06 am | Permalink

        Alas. You need to respect democracy. This is Leave – Boris Johnson led the Leave campaign – and this is his deal. It is obviously what he meant by leave. If you don’t like it, tough. You are not allowed another say. It is what you voted for.

    • czerwonadupa
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

      If Johnson’s deal goes through I think he & the Tories will be toast at the next election when the public realise it’s not much different then May’s & in many cases worst. The fisherman have been shafted again, Germany, who have a history of annexing parts of countries, has annexed a part of the UK, our foreign policy & taxation will be decided in Brussels, our trade with other countries cannot differ from EU trade. So in the words of JRM we will be no better than a vassal state. So once again the globalists, EU panjandrums will have beaten another country into submission & the Peasants Revolt of 2016 defeated.

  3. Fred H
    Posted October 21, 2019 at 7:42 pm | Permalink

    The Speaker is way beyond his remit in refusing to have the WA tabled, after being withdrawn on Saturday. The Government wishes to do it on a different day and should be able to. Opposition now had an extra day to consider it ie Sunday. It would seem Speaked believes his opinion out flanks any Government choice.
    A total disgrace – you wouldn’t print the abuse he is due.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 6:59 am | Permalink

      It’s his Parliament, not the Government’s.

      Can you grasp this simple point?

      • Fred H
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 9:01 am | Permalink

        You mean we have a pseudo dictator running things!

    • Shirley
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 7:29 am | Permalink

      Why has the speaker been allowed to continue with his bias? Surely he could be removed if the Parliamentary Brexiters were determined enough. If he cannot be removed for his bias, then remove him for his past bullying behaviour. I can only conclude that the Brexiters in government are happy to allow him to stay in place. Then I start asking myself why they are happy to allow him to stay! The answer is not reassuring.

    • Timaction
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:28 am | Permalink

      Yes. Simply awful and Boris’s judgement that bouncing the UK into this will save his Party. No chance.

  4. ian
    Posted October 21, 2019 at 7:45 pm | Permalink

    Wouldnt your time be best spent doing work in your own constituency for all of the voters and people rather than wasting your time in parliament going around in circles, it quite clear that government hasn’t a clue what it is doing.

    It’s just all a show put on for the voters to hide the government own failings, how anybody can vote for this lot of rubbish i do not know, but i will find out at next GE, how thick the voters are.

    • Dave Andrews
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 6:23 am | Permalink

      I’d like to see a GE as well, if only to discover what the Conservatives will put in their manifesto when the Boris deal fails.
      More fudge and muddle I expect.

  5. Marcus
    Posted October 21, 2019 at 7:48 pm | Permalink

    All a waste of time there will be no further negotiation with Europe. It’s the end of the road 31st unless for a very good valid reason like a GE or a second referendum. Extension then will be only to end of January- Boris may as well head for the ditch

    • Pominoz
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 7:27 am | Permalink

      I see from an article in the Daily Express yesterday that constitutional expert Professor Vernon Bogdanor suggests that here is a way for Boris to get an early GE despite the FTPA. He maintains that a ‘Notwithstanding Bill’, could be introduced which says that ‘Nothwithstanding the FTPA, the Government calls for a General Election’. This, he says, needs a simple majority, rather than a two thirds majority.

      Surely worth a try, if everything else is failing – which I hope Boris’s deal does.

      • Michael McGrath
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:56 am | Permalink

        Pominoz
        I agree that this would be a welcome event but I fear that the “Speaker” would not allow the vote on the sound reasoning that, since there is an r in the month, Erskine May does not apply

    • graham1946
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 9:18 am | Permalink

      Talking of time wasting, lat night I watched the Parliament channel for the last hour of the day and one member (no names or JR will delete the post) waffled for about three quarters of an hour saying that as the Bill was published so late he would not have time to study it and issue amendments. Fair argument, but he could have said what he did in five minutes and mostly just kept repeating himself many times, whilst the Deputy Speaker allowed it to go on. At one point an opposition speaker suggested that if he curtailed his monologue he might have more time to do what he wished. No effect, just more waffle. No wonder 3 days is not enough with wind baggery like that. Time some business discipline was introduced to this most amateur House.

  6. nshgp
    Posted October 21, 2019 at 7:49 pm | Permalink

    It’s very simple. The deal costs 92 bn a year, and 100 bn for Junker’s pension one off.
    That’s based on the costs and a 25% reduction in the 240 bn a year cost of EU regulations.
    On top, Hammond has signed us up to the DB and follow up bailout of other banks. 4-5 trillion. Yes Trillion, not billion.

    So put a spending cuts bill to parliament. Get them to take back control. The specify the cuts needed to pay for the deal.

    As it stands, there is nothing in the bill about how to pay for it. Lets make it transparent. Lets get remainer MPs to take back control, and get the blame.

    You and I know that they won’t vote for any spending cuts to pay for it. They won’t have their names against the consequential austerity because they are cowards.

    So put that spending bill, and lets be done with the whole charade.

    • Mike Wilson
      Posted October 21, 2019 at 11:18 pm | Permalink

      An you explain, with actual examples, where you get the figure of 240 billion as the cost of EU regulations.

      • Mike Wilson
        Posted October 21, 2019 at 11:20 pm | Permalink

        Can, not ‘an’

      • czerwonadupa
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 5:22 pm | Permalink

        Hammond allowed £7 billion of our money to stay in the ECB

  7. Gareth Warren
    Posted October 21, 2019 at 8:07 pm | Permalink

    I seriously do not believe either it will clear without at least a day or more of filibuster in the lords.

    Here I suspect the EU’s hand will be shown, they appear desperate to not let us leave the EU, personally I still hope we do so on WTO terms. I shall only vote for this at every election, I really have learned to detest the EU!

    Our rather slow media who still have not cottoned onto the trends you identified in “We don’t believe you” have not grasped this clear point and still cling to the idea these delays discredit Boris…

    • Lorton
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 4:00 am | Permalink

      Utter nonsense. The EU is DESPERATE to be rid of the UK. It has concluded an agreement with the UK to achieve exactly that. It is the UK – specificalky MPs like John Redwood – that is refusing to sign off on the deal and leave

      • Thomas
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 7:52 am | Permalink

        Lorton,
        If, as you say, the EU is desperate to be rid of the UK then they will reject the PM’s request for an extension. Let’s see, eh?

        • Andy
          Posted October 22, 2019 at 10:10 am | Permalink

          The EU has said it will do all it can to avoid no deal. It has given you a deal, you Brexiteers need to vote for it – stop whining and own the consequences.

          The EU does not want no deals because it will massively harm lives and livelihoods of workers in the EU. It will hurt far more people in the UK but the EU cares more about people than the Tories do.

          • Edward2
            Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:40 pm | Permalink

            It is remainers who refuse to vote for it.

      • Gareth Warren
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:21 am | Permalink

        The EU appears caught in two minds, between a WA that favors them and the faint hope they can keep the UK in the EU. Hence the actions of their pawns in parliament.

        Personally I feel this is a miscalculation and their best hope would be a WA, hopefully it will lead to WTO.

        • John Hatfield
          Posted October 22, 2019 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

          Only with a Brexit Party government, Gareth. The Tories are in the pockets of big business, aka the Establishment.

    • Shirley
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 5:44 am | Permalink

      The phrases ‘We don’t believe you’ and ‘we don’t trust you’ apply to Parliament, as well as the EU.

      The country is crying out for a GE, but as usual the majority are ignored in favour of the minority. This is what the UK has been reduced to. Equality doesn’t matter these days. Minority views are given precedence in all areas.

      I never thought our country would lose its democracy, but it has! It isn’t democracy when politicians can choose which votes to uphold.

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 7:04 am | Permalink

        If the country were really “crying out” for an election, then why weren’t there a million people in Westminster demonstrating for one?

        No, but there were plenty there for something else, weren’t there?

        Go on, if you’re so sure, then organise a demo. See how many you get. Probably about fifty, like those dupes who turned up for that silly anti-European Union gathering in Manchester?

        Brenda in Bristol speaks for most.

        • Fred H
          Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:58 am | Permalink

          The people crying out work……

        • Caterpillar
          Posted October 22, 2019 at 9:40 am | Permalink

          Martin in Cardiff,

          I suspect there are two reasons that democracy and Leave supporters are not marching as much: (1) Westminster is in London which is remain and Eurocentric, and (2) many of those who voted to leave are not in London (suferring from the EU centricity) and are basically too poor to take time out from surviving/scraping by (their MPs are of course not representing them) – It is disenfranchisement.

          The numbers that are more representative are that 17.4million voted to Leave in the referendum, this is greater than the 17.2 million that voted in total in the European elections and vastly greater than the about 3 and a half million that the B*****ks to Brexit campaign attracted. Looking at the petitions, the surveys and the European elections there seem to be about 6 million hardened antidemocratic remain supporters, many of whom are going to be in London and/or have a life position enabling them to go there.

        • Edward2
          Posted October 22, 2019 at 9:42 am | Permalink

          The phrase The Silent Majority is plainly lost on you Martin.

        • sm
          Posted October 22, 2019 at 10:32 am | Permalink

          Perhaps because behaving like mixed-up teenagers, waving silly banners, dressing up like twerps and leaving a whole load of mess behind is not what we consider to be reasoned debate, Martin?

        • Ken moore
          Posted October 22, 2019 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

          The million figure for remainers demonstrating was a lie. Analysis of surveillance cams and footfall estimates the real number at about 80,000.

      • Andy
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 10:12 am | Permalink

        Basically you are saying you don’t like the result of the 2017 general election so you want another vote. Why won’t you respect the will of the people?

  8. David Slavin
    Posted October 21, 2019 at 8:07 pm | Permalink

    What a way to celebrate Trafalgar night

    • eeyore
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 12:06 pm | Permalink

      On Trafalgar night 1805 a tremendous storm scattered the victorious fleet and sank all its prizes.

      Plus ca change.

  9. Caterpillar
    Posted October 21, 2019 at 8:07 pm | Permalink

    Bercow could of course have used the pragmatic argument that the HoC had an opinion to express.
    Caroline Flint’s point on the type of amendments that would be allowed was on the money, but clearly Bercow will allow Remainiac country wrecking amendments. any democracy destroying second referendum is delay, uncertainty and division producing, though if it had been done earlier on a no deal vs WA might have been justifiable. CU/Single Market ideas not only restrict the freedom of the UK (whether to be neoliberal, protectionist or progressive), create unrepresented law taking but are out of date concepts with little statistical support.

    Good to see Barclay mention free trade is target in year – but there needs to be an escape from transition if this does not happen, no more extensions,not another year of games.

    DUP seem to be anti-NI and anti-UK. NI is going to get the best of both worlds even if the structuring of consent is only just the right side of the Good Friday agreement. Are DUP afraid that WA might get SinnFein back imto Stormont?

    Ken Clarke’s comment on how long was given to debate Maastricht was disingenuous at best – Johnson has a referendum mandate for Brexit whereas Major wouldn’t give the people a say.

    The LDs, nationalists etc. were simply antidemocratic and embarrassing.

    The economic impact assessment points were pure bandwagon politics from people who clearly have zero understanding of the state of the current world economy, drivers and forecasting. I hope there are few overseas viewers; it is embarrassing and woild give little confidence in the country.

    JRM seemed well prepared but must resist the temptation to out Bercow Bercow, the electorate could tire of this.

    Bercow was appallingly rude cutting off Sir Bill Cash, when he gives himself so much time.

  10. Slackwater
    Posted October 21, 2019 at 8:13 pm | Permalink

    do you seriously think that one million German car workers won’t go to Mrs Merkel and say- are you telling me that my job is in danger because you won’t put pressure on the EU?- IDS 2017- hasn’t happened though

    • Mike Wilson
      Posted October 21, 2019 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

      Because they know we are not actually leaving.

      • Martinez
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 2:39 pm | Permalink

        Looking at the debate going on- can only think that yes you are going to leave and very soon

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

      The actual fact, of car workers losing their jobs here has had zero influence on this sorry Government, on the other hand.

      I don’t think that I need go further.

      • margaret
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 9:22 pm | Permalink

        E.G Vauxhall are being taken over by Citroen. Now in the hands of the French , there is implicit blackmail . Power to undermine at work. You just don’t seem to get it.

  11. ed2
    Posted October 21, 2019 at 8:16 pm | Permalink

    General Election, please

    Enough it enough.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 7:20 am | Permalink

      With a Brexit/Conservative accommodation.

  12. Hope
    Posted October 21, 2019 at 8:16 pm | Permalink

    Why is the govt bending over backwards to be complimentary to traitor Letwin? He deserves all the condemnation by everyone everywhere not just now but forever.

    His ideas: Poll tax ended in riots and damaged your party and govt, poll tax to be a pilot scheme in Scotland destroyed Tory party in Scotland, Fixed Term Parlaiment Act, now his Remain amendments to destroy Brexit , your party and govt. The man is against democracy and a menace to society his record proves it. Letwin claimed in Parliament enacting the will of the people is more important than any issue before parliament! He is a liar. He has acted more than any MP to do the exact opposite. Your govt Supporting him will ruin the Tory brand further- it is damaged enough.

    • Chris
      Posted October 21, 2019 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

      Hope, it seems to be the Party before country. This has been clearly demonstrated to us time and again since June 2016. Unprincipled and untrustworthy, are two of the more polite adjectives that come to mind.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

      Exactly.

  13. Ian Pennell
    Posted October 21, 2019 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

    Dear Sir John Redwood,

    Opportunities abound in both the House of Commons and in the even-more pro-Remain House of Lords for Boris Johnson to suffer a myriad of Amendment Baubles attached to the Withdrawal Agreement Christmas Tree: Such Amendments could be:

    a) Britain to stay in the Customs Union
    b) A 2nd Referendum (with a choice between this Deal and Remain)
    c) 16 year-olds to have the Vote in the 2nd Referendum
    d) WTO “No Deal” Brexit to be made illegal and punishable by 20 years in Jail by Government Ministers implementing or allowing it
    e) The Prime Minister legally required to Revoke Art. 50 by end of October (or be Jailed).

    Fair enough, the last the last two options would be extreme. But Theresa May and now Boris Johnson as Prime Minister (with his Chief Strategist) have under-estimated the Remainer Parliament – and the lengths to which they will go to Delay/ Subvert Brexit. Boris Johnson must Prepare for the Worst- and fight hard through all the road-blocks (even at risk of Jail)- to make sure Brexit finally happens!

    As soon as the first Remain Bauble is attached to the Brexit Christmas Tree the Withdrawal Bill must be pulled (otherwise Christmas will be before Brexit). Boris Johnson should then go all-out for “No Deal”, invoking Emergency Powers legislation on Friday afternoon (after the Courts close) to nullify the Benn Act, then he can sabotage the EU into refusing a Brexit Delay.

    By the time the Courts can intervene (after Mon. 28th Oct.) to Void Emergency Powers then get police to arrest Boris Johnson (this should give a few more days for Boris Johnson to sabotage the EU) we could be guaranteed our WTO Brexit as the EU wont grant a Delay after being sabotaged. But this demands a brave, principled Prime Minister willing to lay down his career and freedom for Democracy and 17.4 million Voters!

    Does the Prime Minister have the prerequisite Courage and Mettle to see Brexit through like this (if need be)? I sincerely hope that he does.

    Ian Pennell

    • ed2
      Posted October 21, 2019 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

      Boris Johnson as Prime Minister (with his Chief Strategist) have under-estimated the Remainer Parliament – and the lengths to which they will go to Delay/ Subvert Brexit.

      >
      It is impossible he and Cummings could have under-estimated such a thing, but they might want Tory voters to believe that.

  14. Oggy
    Posted October 21, 2019 at 8:23 pm | Permalink

    I thought we were leaving on the 31st ‘do or die’ ?

    Pull the bill.
    Boris needs to go back to the EU and ask them to grant a 3 month extension on the strict condition a GE is held. This way Corbyn will have to face the electorate.

    • Fred H
      Posted October 21, 2019 at 8:41 pm | Permalink

      Ask EU for 3.5 days. We’ve had Parliament debate it for 3.5 years. Enough is enough.

      • Oggy
        Posted October 21, 2019 at 9:02 pm | Permalink

        I agree with you Fred. If I had my way we would have left 3.5 years ago on WTO. I was suggesting a way to get a GE if Boris doesn’t get us out on the 31st.

    • Peter Wood
      Posted October 21, 2019 at 11:24 pm | Permalink

      I think your suggested way to get a GE is sound. The problem follows when, after the Tories land slide election win, BJ will return his/Mrs Mays proposed awful Treaty, with a few changes, for approval, then we’re back to EU Vassalage!

    • ChrisS
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 7:55 am | Permalink

      I don’t think it will work, Oggie : We have to remember that the 27 would rather we were not leaving at all. After all, we pay them a lot of money each year which buys very little influence and ties our hands in world trade.

      If we asked for an extension they would specify a General Election OR a second referendum, clearly the preferred option for both Remainers here, Brussels and the 27. That would give them an irresistible opportunity to try and thwart Brexit.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

        Indeed.

  15. Sir Joe Soap
    Posted October 21, 2019 at 8:45 pm | Permalink

    Looks like my smuggling plan just got stopped. Customs declarations from NI to GB isn’t unfettered trade is it?

  16. Kenneth
    Posted October 21, 2019 at 8:57 pm | Permalink

    Remainers are now occupying Parliament, much of the media and much of the legal establishment.

    It seems that all administrative and legal avenues are being closed off by the anti-democrats and the main propaganda transmitters are controlled by remain mass media.

    I have friends who have never demonstrated but who are now ready to march.

    If we don’t leave the eu very soon I do wonder if the silent majority will try to find a way of wresting power from a vote-shy Parliament.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 7:09 am | Permalink

      Since polls say that most of the people are pro-European Union that would seem to be quite representative.

      • Dennis Zoff
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 11:26 am | Permalink

        Nonsense again from the Remainer from Cardiff!

      • Anonymous
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

        Yet all recent votes have won it for Leave. Including 64% who didn’t bother to vote for an MEP at all in the last EU elections. Yet you always choose polls.

        Let’s have a general election and get a representative Parliament, one way or the other.

      • libertarian
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 5:57 pm | Permalink

        Marty

        No they dont , why make it up to suit your own lack of ability to give a meaningful reason to stay

        Yesterdays poll has it 42 42

    • Timaction
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:51 am | Permalink

      …………..and our Government has been colluding with them to deliver BRINO. Remember Olly and the parallel white paper, the Chequers ambush etc.
      Boris’s deal is the same as Ms May’s deal minus the backstop and a few alterations to the political declaration. Still awful.
      Lets clear the swamp!

  17. Ian@Barkham
    Posted October 21, 2019 at 9:01 pm | Permalink

    The Remaniacs have a taste for assigning this and that to anything that should cause delay.

    These un-democratic individuals with no respect for the people that put them in the HoC. Their main gripes for now seem to be the things the EU won’t permit in discussion until the WA is signed. The conclusion is they intend reneging on their election promises and subsequent laws to leave the EU.

    It is clear we the People need the swamp drained, but they fight that as well.

    Unless something dramatic happens the People will ensure the whole of Parliment is punished going forward.

    But I guess the main protagonist dont care as they looking to retire or move on

    • Leaver
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:15 am | Permalink

      The phrase ‘we the people’ has come to fascinate me.

      Boris claims ‘we the people’ want his Brexit deal
      Labour claims ‘we the people’ didn’t vote to be made poor
      The Liberals claim ‘we the people’ are tired of Brexit and have been betrayed so often we might as well give up
      Farage claims ‘we the people’ voted to unshackle ourselves from Brussels entirely

      I submit that none of them care about ‘we the people’ and are serving their own narrow interests.

  18. Fred H
    Posted October 21, 2019 at 9:02 pm | Permalink

    Off topic.
    Friends just got back from driving through France, Italy, Switzerland & Germany. Staying just inside Italy at the border with Swiss they walked to the border – people and cars more or less just driving through, some lorries parked up. After normal working hours the border is unmanned, wide open for any vehicle ! Asking in their hotel they were told ‘Yes it is unmanned after daytime hours – just drive through.’ The border is an EU country with a non -EU (Switzerland). Why are we all uptight about N.Ireland with the Republic – same situation.
    No wonder illegals, economic migrants etc find their way to the Channel unimpeded.

    • Sir Joe Soap
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 7:17 am | Permalink

      Well exactly. Furthermore the new WA proposes a border at Belfast or Liverpool to replace the proper EU-NI border. Why should we take it for granted that trouble at such a phony border, put upto “cut-off” NI from the UK is any less likely than trouble at a currency, tax and national border?

    • A.Sedgwick
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:14 am | Permalink

      The EU is a sham, always has been and always will be; gravy train,vested interests personified.

      • margaret howard
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

        A.Sedgwick

        “The EU is a sham….”

        As opposed to the UK government?

    • Polly Smith
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:16 am | Permalink

      Switzerland is in the Schengen system, applies EU law and is subject to the ECJ. is that what you want?

      • Mark B
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

        Polly

        It is in Schengen yes, but does not come under the ECJ or has to apply EU law. They have agreements already in place.

      • Fred H
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

        I merely ask why is a proper border manned on both sides daytime, and the staff all disappear after hours. A total mockery.

  19. Posted October 21, 2019 at 9:22 pm | Permalink

    I see he is now offering a vote on the customs union which the referendum and your manifesto voted to leave and of course if we stay in it we haven’t left in in any way and that would guarantee a role for the ECJ.

    The sell out looks almost complete.

  20. Lorton
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 3:46 am | Permalink

    Parliament is simply doing its job, holding the government to account. I thought that allowing that was exactly why you wanted to leave the EU!

    • Edward2
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 6:45 am | Permalink

      “This is your decision we will implement what you decide”
      That is what was promised in the referendum leaflet sent to every home in the land.
      Parliament is refusing to carry out that promise.

      We have to leave the EU first for Parliament to regain its sovereign powers.
      But you know that, I feel sure Lorton.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 7:21 am | Permalink

      Rubbish it is just going to war with the electorate.

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

        It might be annoying to a rather vocal and self-centred minority of the electorate, but it is actually considering the interests of all the people, not just the prejudices of the minority who happened to win an advisory referendum.

        That, exactly, is its job.

        • Edward2
          Posted October 23, 2019 at 7:11 am | Permalink

          The polls show a majority in favour of leaving the EU and against any further delay.
          Polls also show a large lead for the conservatives.

  21. Mark B
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 4:42 am | Permalink

    Good morning.

    . . . seek change from the EU.

    They can seek all they want, it is still a bad deal.

    . . . the government may strengthen the Bill with a sovereignty clause to help with the problem of excessive EU powers . . .

    Why not just Leave ? Then we will not have to go through these shenanigans.

    • Posted October 22, 2019 at 4:12 pm | Permalink

      Exactly, Mark B. Why not just leave? We are being coerced into believing that there is a crying need for a trade deal before we dare escape.

      One day we may know what more there is to it than all this smoke-and-mirrors stuff. There MUST be something that we’re not being ”allowed” to know.

  22. Lee Taylor
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 4:55 am | Permalink

    Watching the ongoing shenanigans yesterday it was clear Sir John from your body language that you share the frustrations of millions of us. Our Parliament only works when we have have honourable members and I am sorry to say the current speaker has no honour. When the dust finally settles we will need an inquiry into this, but who would you trust to run such an inquiry? It seems to me that every aspect of government and the judiciary has been infiltrated by a class of people who no longer believe in the concept of Great Britain.

  23. Polly Smith
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 5:13 am | Permalink

    So we are locked into EU rules until the end of 2020, and possibly for 2 more years after that. Subject to all the EU’s rules, but with no say in their making. And Northern Ireland separated from Great Britian for as long as the nationalist community wants – which means forever. How can anyone with a shred of self-respect possibly accept this rancid deal?

    • Lifelogic
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 7:00 am | Permalink

      How indeed? But the house is full of remainer traitors, many of whom were elected on one basis but are doing the complete opposite to defy the clearly expressed will of the people. We also have the hugely remainer biased Speaker, most judges, lawyers and civil service. Then we have endless propaganda from the appallingly remainer BBC.

      All but a hand full of MPs voted for Ed Miliband’s moronic and hugely damaging Climate Change Act so we can see clearly the general quality, stupidity, dishonesty, incompetence, scientific, economic & engineering ignorance of most MPs.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 7:16 am | Permalink

        So now they want to give electric cars green number plates and other bribes to encourage people to buy this premature technology. They already get a subsidy on purchase and pay virtually no tax on fuel yet sensibly almost no one wants to buy them (just 2% of UK car sales).

        But why push them they save no CO2 emissions at all and can actually increase them over all when manufacture is considered. Only the daft transport Secretary and a few other dopes still thinks they are zero emission.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

      So just name one of those rules, which adversely affects you in any material way, Polly?

      • Edward2
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:45 pm | Permalink

        GDPR
        REACH
        VAT on EU trading ie Vatmoss
        European Arrest Warrant
        Loads more but a few to start with.

  24. Posted October 22, 2019 at 5:24 am | Permalink

    The DT has now broken cover saying what we always knew that we would be subject to the continuing rule of the ECJ. When will we stop being lied to?

    • Lifelogic
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 7:18 am | Permalink

      When will we stop being lied to? Probably never by politicians I suspect – we just have to learn to spot the lies and call them out.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 9:35 am | Permalink

      If we are under the ECJ we have not left. It is bad enough being under the UK’s now clearly very political law inventing Supreme Court.

  25. Ian Wragg
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 5:31 am | Permalink

    The WA isn’t leaving in any sense of the word. I don’t understand why the remainers are worried. It will tie us too the EU for ever. Isn’t that what they always wanted

  26. Jeremy
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 5:42 am | Permalink

    Your story should be called “The Tories thwarts Brexit again”.

    Have you seen the story in the Telegraph that the government are to give MPs a customs union vote after Brexit to see off attempts to thwart Boris’s deal? As you well know, a CU is not Brexit.

    I also understand the government are to spend £146 million on a new body to monitor the rights of EU citizens if the UK leaves with a Brexit deal. What about my rights as a British citizen? Am I second class in my own country? Disgraceful.

    How can you and the ERG continue to support the government?

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 7:12 am | Permalink

      You obviously don’t care about your rights, because you vote for parties and for actions absolutely to diminish them.

      It’s truly laughable.

      • steve
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 7:57 pm | Permalink

        MiC

        Yes I’d gladly vote away my rights if it meant you’d lose yours.

    • Sir Joe Soap
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 7:26 am | Permalink

      Crazy.
      Pull this bill now. We need to have a properly organised withdrawal, negotiate agreements around the world an with the EU after a WTO exit. The mess starting to pour out of this legislation is ridiculous.

      • Chris
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

        There are huge concerns with Boris’s tweaked May WA treaty and Sir John has just spoken in detail about these in the H of C this afternoon.

        The very serious legal implications have been made clear by barristers and at least one QC in articles on the internet e.g. Bruges Group, Benjamin Wrench, barrister, Brussels, and Martin Howe QC, Lawyers for Britain (with regard to Martin Howe, those arguing that Howe is promoting/happy with Boris’s deal are plain wrong.

        Howe details the highly negative aspects of Boris’s deal, which quite frankly are alarming and certainly do not represent Leaving. Also he states that the Bill could turn out to be disastrous simply due to the possibility that it could easily be hijacked with amendments, and Boris would have no control over that).

        • James
          Posted October 23, 2019 at 3:03 am | Permalink

          This is true. Unfortunately, the headline on Martin Howe’s article is a bad one, and it initially put me off reading it. His article is very carefully considered, worth reading, and his conclusion should serve as a strong warning.

      • steve
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

        SJS

        “Pull this bill now”

        Well Boris said if he lost the timetable vote he’d pull the bill and call for a general election. Guess what……he lost and he’s bottled out.

        So no reason to believe anything he says, actually.

        • Chris
          Posted October 22, 2019 at 10:02 pm | Permalink

          There is one certainty, steve, and that is Boris does not keep his word. I personally don’t believe a word he says.

    • a-tracy
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:11 am | Permalink

      “I also understand the government are to spend £146 million on a new body to monitor the rights of EU citizens if the UK leaves with a Brexit deal.” Does it also monitor UK citizens rights in the EU?

      • Andy
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 10:16 am | Permalink

        UK citizens rights in the EU are a matter for the country in which they are in. Some UK citizens will lose our very considerably but then that is what you voted for in 2016.

        • a-tracy
          Posted October 24, 2019 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

          Why will they lose out Andy? The EU Countries already rebill us healthcare even though we don’t bill them reciprocally – we must do this immediately and if I were Boris or head of Health I would implement this immediately. Any hospitals moaning about recharging EU Countries correctly won’t get their fair share of the funding will they – it’s about time they took action. When midwives talk about wanting to treat all pregnant women that rock up from the world they’re not talking about looking after them on their day off. Oh no, they want to treat them at everyone else’s expense. Well put your money where your mouths are ladies and gents of the midwifery profession and donate a day of your own time to do this free service for a year and then I might believe your good intentions rather than just expecting everyone else to pay for your goodness.

          I thought your beloved EU was a fair, moderate organisation and we have already guaranteed their citizens settled status. You see our beloved Country is fairer both minded and in action.

    • hefner
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:13 am | Permalink

      Jeremy, £146m for 3.5m EU people, that’s about £40 per person, a dinner for two? Think how much more has been wasted in these last four years, think how clever our speed-reading MPs must be to go through the 115 pages of the new WA and 126 pages of explanatory notes to take a meaningful decision in 3 days, specially given that a good fraction of these articles refers to previous texts of laws/regulations.
      Isn’t the UK such a shining example of democracy, not the Shining City on the Hill, but the Mother of Parliaments. Aren’t you proud to be British/English/Welsh/Scottish/NIrish?
      And if you are still not convinced, read chapter 11 “Yes-men” in Isabel Hardman “Why We Get the Wrong Politicians”. That’s should be made compulsory reading for all 18-year olds about to vote for the first time, together with “The Blunders of Our Governments” by Anthony King. And next time you read a politician’s website, bring some bushels of salt.

    • Mark B
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 12:26 pm | Permalink

      This is exactly what the Opposition has been hoping for – Bad BREXIT news. The Tories are stuffed ! Alexander Johnson MP’s reputation is shot, and as soon as the polls begin to dip, they will have him out, deal or no deal.

  27. Zorro
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 6:09 am | Permalink

    Are you getting ready to lend your vote to this horlicks? I certainly hope not. Boris’s “no better outcome” deal is a variation on May. It confirms my worst fears about his true nature. Why can we not just leave and turn off the tap?

    Zorro

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

      Yes, the UK could just leave, and turn off the money tap to millions of jobs.

      • Zorro
        Posted October 23, 2019 at 6:30 am | Permalink

        Oh what Project Fear on steroids nonsense! – totally discredited post 2016

        Zorro

    • steve
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

      Zorro

      “Why can we not just leave and turn off the tap?”

      Basically because there is no spine in the HoC, but there is corruption, cowardice and treason in abundance.

  28. Mick
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 6:49 am | Permalink

    The house of shame should be shut down and a General Election called, and say if comrade Corbyn and comrade McDonald get into power do they honestly think for one bloody moment that the country would except us staying in a custom union and a single market, what flaming planet are they on, they one and only reason the Tory’s didn’t get a majority government in 2017 was because the Labour Party lied that they would uphold the referendum result and the gullible I would vote for a donkey if it had a red rosette on it fell for there lies again, well now we know were the Labour Party stand on Europe and mark my words we will make them pay for there betrayal up north that is why chicken Corbyn is to scared to have a General Election because his party will be wiped out, that’s the only reason they want a people’s vote because his MPs won’t be putting there snivelling heads on the block

  29. A.Sedgwick
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 7:27 am | Permalink

    The underlying matter is the UK has a dysfunctional, hypocritical and with the right lawyers an illegal Parliament. MPs changing political parties or being ejected from same without by-election should not be allowed with our longstanding system. Blind eyes could be turned with one or two MPs defecting but when there are dozens it is undemocratic. Many roads lead back to Cameron and his pandering to Clegg. A fixed term parliament is now clearly showing it is a bad idea for stable or honest government.

    In short how can we get a GE quickly?

    • Pominoz
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 9:43 am | Permalink

      See my response to Marcus above.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

      Why would any normal person want three General Elections, a referendum, and three changes of PM at least in just about four years?

      • a-tracy
        Posted October 24, 2019 at 3:51 pm | Permalink

        Martin, in my case and I consider myself a ‘normal person’, I want my MP to stand down, she is going against the manifesto I elected her on, if I knew she was going to act like a Liberal Democrat she would not have got my vote and many other people I know locally feel the same. The people that campaigned and knocked on doors for her that she is now slating for not adopting her, how does she really think they must feel knowing they lied to people on the doorsteps to get her elected. She has voted against the government that she is supposed to represent on too many occasions to ignore – STAND FOR A BYELECTION you rotten MPs and give us the choice on you.

  30. agricola
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 7:37 am | Permalink

    As information percolates it appears that the Boris WA is little better than the May WA. This being so it would be better voted down in Parliament. Question I ask is can we leave minus a WA on the 31st October when the traitorous Benn act seems to prevent us from doing so. I suspect it is likely that the EU will grant us the unwanted extension purely to serve their own ends of keeping us in the EU. From this shambles of parliamentary duplicity there seem to be two options. One is to leave on 31st October offering the FTA etc that you mentioned earlier or two, wait for a general election swamp clearing event that gives us the representation we demand.

    • Dr Evil
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 11:33 am | Permalink

      The no deal Brexit is still enacted in law and will begin at 23.00 on 31st of October unless art 50 is revoked or an extension is agreed.

  31. Andy
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 7:41 am | Permalink

    So you are disappointed that you did not get to rerun a vote you lost by a small %. Ironic.

    The fact is that this is the most important legislation Parliament has considered in your career.

    To try to rush it through in 3 days for political motives is completely insane – but then that is where we are with the Tories.

    Brexit is on life support anyway. Sure you will win a vote this week or next. We will leave the EU.

    But most of the country now do not what to. They hate what you have done. And it is just a matter of time until it is undone and you are all wiped out.

    • Edward2
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 9:44 am | Permalink

      So lets have an election and see if you are right.

    • libertarian
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 10:18 am | Permalink

      Andy

      Can none of you think for yourselves ?

      Just parotting the same easily dismissed with facts twaddle just makes you look dim

    • Anonymous
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 12:13 pm | Permalink

      That is certainly not what I’m hearing around here. You may be hearing that in the Metropolis where middle class mums have so much time they can glue themselves to railings.

    • Richard1
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 2:23 pm | Permalink

      I thought the latest poll – not that it means much – was 54% for leave? The remarkable thing is that leave support has held up as it has given the shambolic way the May govt handled Brexit for three years and the relentless and mendacious campaign by continuity remain and its media allies, particularly the BBC, to whip up hysteria and to discredit advocates of Brexit, whether politicians, business people, economists, historians etc.

      I think what’s been very helpful for leave is the absurd and virulent loathing expressed for leave voters by a small but highly vocal minority of remain supporters – your posts here being an excellent example.

      Meanwhile the 1/2 of the Country who voted leave, and the 1/3 or so of the Country who voted remain but accept democracy and want the Country to move on to a new relationship with the EU based on free trade, will support Boris and his deal. You are Part of a small unrepresentative sub-section of remain, and will be an irrelevance after the next election.

      Perhaps you as surprised – though not as heartened – as I was was to see that Boris now massively out-polls Corbyn amongst 18-24 year olds? Bring on the election!

  32. alan jutson
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 7:51 am | Permalink

    I am simply disgusted that our politicians would rather a foreign power block run our country, than our own elected politicians.

    Who would have thought that just a couple of years ago so many politicians (I exclude our host) would simply lie to the people at a general election about their views on the EU and the referendum.

    I wonder what weasel words they will use next time.

    I hope Boris is true to his word, and refuses to negotiate further.

    Of course the EU will grant us an extension, they want our money and our markets, but perhaps they may think again if we cause so much disruption in their Parliament that it cannot work properly.
    Oh I almost forgot, Their Parliament has no power, they can only vote on what they are told they can vote on, how ironic !

  33. Alec
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 7:52 am | Permalink

    So we now have a situation where the allegedly pro Leave government is trying to force an awful agreement through, the pro Leave public are so bamboozled by it all they think the agreement is good and we are relying on Remainers to thwart the agreement that they should like. This ridiculous and treasonous parliament should not only be dissolved it should be prosecuted.

    • Andy
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

      Why would Remainers like your naff deal? It takes away our rights. It makes us permanently poorer. It breaks off Northern Ireland. It creates pointless bureaucracy. It is a rubbish deal. But we told you all along Brexit would be rubbish and it turns out we were right.

    • steve
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

      Alec

      “This ridiculous and treasonous parliament should not only be dissolved it should be prosecuted.”

      A few hundred years ago they’d have been on the block, the gallows, drawn and quartered.

      But I agree they certainly should be prosecuted. I’d like to see Her Majesty set an example by having them apprehended and taken to the Tower.

  34. Brian Tomkinson
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 7:52 am | Permalink

    We were asked by UK Parliament to decide if we should remain in or leave the EU. We voted on 23rd June 2016 to leave. We are disgusted that our democratic decision has not been implemented after over 3 years. This Parliament has a majority of MPs who voted to remain and have done all they can to overturn the decision. The sooner they are gone the better.
    We are determined to be an independent, self-governing country & we will.

    • Andy
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

      We are an independent self governing country. The main difference you will notice after Brexit is that you will be poorer and your grandchildren – who incidentally hate Brexit and who secretly hate you for voting for it – will have fewer rights.

      And if you bothered to follow what has actually happened MPs have not tried to stop you leaving at all. They have merely insisted that we do it with a deal – which is what you were promised in 2016 and by all parties except UKIP in the 2017 general election.

      • a-tracy
        Posted October 24, 2019 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

        Andy, we weren’t promised a deal, in fact we were told no deal was better than a bad deal remember.

        The MPs mine amongst them have defied the manifesto they stood on. If I was Prime Minister I would put in a new act to force these people to stand for by-election and let the people that put them into the Parliament choose whether they are acting on our behalf or not.

  35. Kevin
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:00 am | Permalink

    This struggle is over a Treaty that no-one voted for and that does not restore
    our dignity as a nation. Why is the P.M. using up his energy and our time and
    money over this, and not over what we voted for? Our own constitutional
    monarch is also head of state of Canada, Australia and New Zealand,
    yet we will remain their sovereign inferiors unless we have a clean-break Brexit.

  36. Lindsay McDougall
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:03 am | Permalink

    It may not be possible to complete the Bill by 31st October but whose fault is that?

    I think that the Government should proceed as rapidly as possible but if there is obvious filibustering then Mr Johnson should write to Mr Tusk on 30th October, as follows:

    “The letter sent in accordance with the Benn Act was unsigned because it violates the human rights of any human being to force him/her to sign something that he/she disagrees with. Accordingly that letter is null and void.

    The United Kingdom does not seek and will not accept an extension to the Article 50 date of 31st October.”

    I know, all Hell will be let loose because the implication will be that we leave with No Deal on 31st October and begin life free of the EC and the ECJ on 1st November. I think you will then find that parliament will approve Mr Johnson’s deal and pass his Bill PDQ.

    • Oggy
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 11:57 am | Permalink

      But we don’t want Boris’s bill, we would like to leave the EU.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

      What a silly post.

      Johnson was not forced to sign it, nor did he. The Act just made it part of his job description to send the letter. He could and should have resigned instead, I think.

    • steve
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

      Lindsay

      “I think you will then find that parliament will approve Mr Johnson’s deal and pass his Bill PDQ.”

      I anticipate the EU granting another extension, followed by more of the usual delaying tactics by the spineless government and parliament EU lackeys.

      It needs Boris’s surrender document to be rejected once and for all, and the Vandal in Chief John Bercow to be sacked straight away. There’s no doubt that were it not for him we would have left the EU by now. He needs to be thrown out in disgrace and with an amendment forced where the sun doesn’t shine.

  37. a-tracy
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:22 am | Permalink

    Surely every MP in the UK read all of May’s agreement in full, they had plenty of time to. If Boris has made just a few amendments to it then all that they are required to read and understand are those few amendments, so what is the problem with three days to do that?

    As for Labour saying it gives the Tories the opportunity to remove workers rights, what the hell, if the Tories did that it would give Labour a clear run at a massive majority so why aren’t they rubbing their hands together at that prospect. We hear all the time how the Tories will privatise the NHS, well who put in the Doctors contract that removed their necessity to provide cover for on-call? Who semi-privatised our Dentists? Who sold hospitals and build new ones on Private Finance initiatives? Labour that’s who.

    • sm
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 10:40 am | Permalink

      And how many Statutory Instruments implementing EU law have been passed through Parliament on the nod during the past 40 years without all this faux concern?

  38. Newmania
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:26 am | Permalink

    It has been clear to most people that the closed shop two Party system no longer works for the country which is not divided along only one axis . We have a BBC or ITV choice when we are living in a Net flix Amazon on demand streaming age. As so often the Public sector is the unreformed ball and chain dragging us all down . I do not wish to vote for either laughable Communists or Odious Nationalists.
    That said while and element of PR is clearly required direct accountability has prevented the Party elites form forcing Brexit though . MPs care about their own jobs and as such have reflected the country which is not in favour of this hard high cost Brexit by some margin .
    It has been the constant effort of the ultra Nationalist and their fellow travelling opportunist friends to suggest this representation is illegitimate and that this constituency are traitors in that they are people at all . In fact it is the only functioning aspect of the system
    The conflict is not Parliament versus the people it is the people versus the Parties , one of whom is the executive but both are desperate to re -establish their duopoly by “Getting Brexit done” .
    If children are stolen from people lie suffering alone and our futures are smaller meaner and nastier, they matters not a jot .
    Me me me me me . That is the the new rule , a moral and spiritual wasteland by turns desperately depressing and savagely farcical .

  39. RichardM
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:30 am | Permalink

    ‘Strengthening the bill with a sovereignty clause’ – what nonsense. Reality : Parliament is already Sovereign. the clause in the agreement is completely fatuous:

    “It is recognised that the Parliament of the United Kingdom is Sovereign”.

    • Edward2
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 9:46 am | Permalink

      Well that’s wrong Richard.
      Read the Mastricht and Lisbon Treaties

    • libertarian
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 10:22 am | Permalink

      Dickie M

      You might want to try reading the EU website about who has primary sovereignty

      You dont know what you voted for

    • Oggy
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

      EU law supersedes UK law – simples.

      • Oggy
        Posted October 22, 2019 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

        PS although I do agree with you re ‘the Sovereignty clause in the agreement is completely fatuous:’

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

      It always was recognised by the European Union. All through our membership.

      It’s a pity that our government and many Leave voters do not also.

    • steve
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

      Richard M

      Wrong, the crown is sovereign. Parliament is there to serve the crown and it’s subjects.

      Emphasis on ‘serve’ rather than arrogantly betray.

  40. William Long
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:35 am | Permalink

    One can but hope it will end in a ‘No deal’ exit by default.

  41. Denis Cooper
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:36 am | Permalink

    JR, I would like to refer back to a comment I posted on October 8, here:

    http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2019/10/08/car-loans/#comment-1061590

    which started:

    “Off topic, why are MPs discussing an issue, namely the cost of customs compliance, this afternoon, when that should have been thrashed out long ago?

    Here is a thread from July 2018 … ”

    Throughout that debate:

    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2019-10-08/debates/457DF585-8C5A-4C37-BF67-D28B2F9B8B78/HMRCImpactAnalysisCustoms

    the minister, Jesse Norman, kept referring to measures to mitigate the cost to businesses but without giving any detail, least of any detail on the extent to which the projected cost to businesses of up to £20 billion a year would be reduced.

    Now we are in a similar muddled situation with respect to trade to and from Northern Ireland, firstly with claims from the DUP that every consignment coming in from Great Britain will require a customs declaration, even if there is actually nothing to declare, and yesterday the new revelation that goods departing from Northern Ireland to Great Britain will need additional paperwork:

    http://bit.ly/2MYlxaS

    Hilary Benn:

    “It is reported that the Secretary of State told the House of Lords European Union Select Committee this morning that under this agreement, goods leaving Northern Ireland for the rest of the United Kingdom will require an exit summary declaration to be submitted. Can he confirm for the House that such declarations have to be made when goods leave the customs territory of the European Union and, if so, how does that square with article 4 of the Northern Ireland protocol, which says that Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom? It is either part of the European Union or the United Kingdom; it cannot be both.”

    Stephen Barclay:

    “What I was referring to in those remarks was in line with international obligations. Some practical information will need to be provided electronically on the movement of goods from west to east. However, the Government will be considering the process during the implementation period.”

    That’s if we ever get to the implementation period …

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

      And connected with that, here is Kate Hoey asking a reasonable question on the same general matter and getting another unsatisfactory answer:

      http://bit.ly/35Uvmzh

      “The Secretary of State should be an expert on the protocol, so may I ask him a simple question? A friend who gardens in Northern Ireland wants to buy 2 lb of organic garlic from a supplier in England. When the supplier sees the Northern Ireland address will they be obligated to add the EU tariff—currently 10% — and how would my friend prove that he is not moving it to the EU, in the Republic, and how would he reclaim the tariff? The agreement says that the default assumption is that it is going to the EU, which is an important point. That is what people are talking about in Northern Ireland today — not restoring devolution.”

      And what answer did she get from Julian Smith, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland?

      “As the hon. Lady knows, the joint committee in the new protocol will look at all those matters. I expect them to be looked at over the coming months as we go through the implementation period.”

      Why has it been allowed to become the default assumption that any goods imported into Northern Ireland are destined for the Republic, when it must surely be the case that the greater part of them are for consumption or final use within the province and so will not be taken across the land border into the Republic and so potentially the rest of the EU Single Market?

      Why has the government persisted in the illogical course of proposing new UK laws to control imports into Northern Ireland, with all the unnecessary complications that approach entails, when the legitimate concerns of the Irish Republic and the EU could have been satisfactorily addressed by laws to control the smaller volumes of exports driven across the border?

      Was this really how the government hoped to keep the DUP on side?

      • Hope
        Posted October 24, 2019 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

        D nuns,
        It is not illogical it is a way of discreetly or deceitfully giving a bung to the RoI/EU. The tariff will never be reclaimed.

  42. Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:37 am | Permalink

    The BS tide is turning. Now the details are emerging the Daily Express calls it a horror deal. So how can you vote for it, Sir J R?

  43. Bob Dixon
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:56 am | Permalink

    Boris’s bill is no better than May’s. Whatever can generate a GE should now be the Governments priority.

  44. Dominic
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:57 am | Permalink

    From Robert Toombs in the Telegraph…

    ‘But never before have hundreds of MPs worked to undermine the edifice of democratic government. Our long membership of the EEC and then the EU has created something like a state within the state. We must look at Ireland, France, Denmark, Italy and Greece, where democratic votes were in one way or another neutered by a Europe-wide political establishment, to understand what is happening. In all these countries, a substantial section of the political, administrative, business and intellectual classes have been absorbed into a supranational system, which treats national democracy as a problem to be circumvented. Absorbed ideologically, absorbed in their material interests, their careers, and even their social lives.’

    If we allow this virus to destroy representative democracy across Europe we will all pay a very heavy price.

    The threat to our democracy is existential, it is real and this force is present throughout every political party in the Commons and has infected the entire British state including the BBC and many other public bodies

    And what have the Tories done to fight back against this virus? NOTHING

    It will take a new party to dismantle all that’s been constructed since 1990. The Tories are neither committed nor courageous to do the job

  45. Posted October 22, 2019 at 9:16 am | Permalink

    The ludicrous Rory Stewart of course wants more time (to delay-my words!)

  46. Edwardm
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 9:18 am | Permalink

    Let’s hope it all ends up at “no deal”.

    We then need a GE to clear out all the Remoaner MPs with their multifarious vices.

  47. Sharon Jagger
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 9:20 am | Permalink

    The comments in this thread seem typical of what I see elsewhere, though some aren’t as polite as these.

    The media have gone mad supporting this new treaty. The ERG too are supporting it, I can only assume because they think we’ll lose Brexit completely. But this deal still leaves us so under the control of the EU it’s unbelievable. I think the UK government are naive to think the EU will let us off some of the controlling sign ups.

    OR it’s part of a clever and cunning plan to leave with a managed WTO.

  48. Paul Cohen
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 9:26 am | Permalink

    Speaker Bercow has a myopic view of the world – his priority is his own agrandisment, and the ability to lord it in the HOC . This is doing untold damage to proceedral work and encourages those who would cause havoc with the process.

    My view is to get a kick-start by going for a General Election ASAP and then seeing where the dice fall. One way or another this would generate action and abandon the present stalemate

  49. libertarian
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 10:20 am | Permalink

    Heres a thought

    When the People of East Germany decided they had had enough of the Soviet yoke they didnt ask the politburo for permission , they didnt ask the East German government to vote on leaving. They just tore down the wall and left

    Come the revolution, power to the people !

  50. BillM
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 11:01 am | Permalink

    So why was it wrong for Boris to hold a re-run of his agreement but right for Mrs May to have two re-runs of her EU “Surrender Document”? The Speaker is a disgrace to his uniform.
    As Speaker of the House his position is meant to be neutral but it is very clear that he is onside of the socialists and the Remainers, despite being elected as a Tory.
    I trust the forthcoming investigation into his bullying behavior will prove the case for his victims. I await justice being served upon the man who betrayed democracy in this country.

    One of the May votes was on WA and PD, another on just the WA

  51. Qubus
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 11:06 am | Permalink

    I am beginning to lose the will to live. However, before I take the final option, could someone explain to me why Mrs May’s bill was allowed to be presented three times, but Boris’s only once.

  52. ian
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 11:27 am | Permalink

    If the UK is going to be a colony of the EU then your nukes should be sold off as you will not have any control over them.

  53. Dr Evil
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 11:28 am | Permalink

    The Boris deal is awful. It kow tows to the ECJ and is vassalage once again. There may be an opportunity to go for WTO at the end of the interim period but there is an opportunity to seize that now and get a clean and full exit from the EU now. Unless this is a ploy to let the clock run down and refuse the extension on 31st of October. Somehow I doubt it.

  54. mancunius
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    So one of the most complex treaties governing the entire future of the United Kingdom – a bill that would take weeks of the parliamentary calendar – will be rushed through blindly in three days, because one backbencher and the Speaker conspired to disallow a government motion.
    It seems MPs are determined to prove that they are incapable of governing an independent country and need Nursey Brussels to do it all for them, poor little mites.
    The public contempt in which they are held grows daily to massive proportions.

  55. Prigger
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

    People may say I do not know what I am talking about. Of course I don’t, we are thinking and talking in Modern English

  56. Chris
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    Just been listening (6.47 ish) to Sir John speaking in the House of Commons. Excellent contribution, and I liked the reference to the PM’s Broken Promises Bill too!

    Are you the first MP to actually spell out that No Deal is nothing of the sort, and that there are mechanisms and agreements in place and available to leave without the WA? It was a very important point.

    Also your standing up for the N Ireland case was splendid. They have been appallingly treated.

    Also you highlighted the huge and never ending and unquantifiable financial contribution that we would be liable for under Boris’s deal (the EU in the driving seat and we would have no mechanism for appeal).

    Quite simply, Sir John, you should be in government drumming some sense into those “idiots” (apologies for impoliteness, but the wear and tear of the last few years together with the shenanigans of May and now Boris have reduced me to this). You seem to be far more astute and knowledgeable than our PM, and you certainly possess more wisdom and common sense.

    • Chris
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

      With reference to my comment above, the time should have read 16.47 pm on the Live H of C broadcast.

  57. Posted October 22, 2019 at 4:05 pm | Permalink

    Why is it people are STILL banging on about the need for a ”deal”, ”treaty”, or whatever?
    We have always known we didn’t need a trade deal or treaty to leave the EU – why isn’t this being said, and forcibly?
    Wasn’t that £39 billion originally a bribe to encourage the EU to talk about trade?
    I say again – we are being cheated and insulted at every turn.

  58. Posted October 22, 2019 at 4:07 pm | Permalink

    Prorogue again for 1 day then bring it back in a new session.

  59. mac
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    If I was a British subject, I would be disgusted beyond words with this Parliament. In a more robust society your traitorous Remain PMs would be getting horsewhipped in the street.

    • Fred H
      Posted October 23, 2019 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

      we ARE disgusted…horsewhipping? maybe a little too far?

  60. steve
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

    JR

    “Parliament thwarts the government again”

    And it will continue doing so until you get an unbiased Speaker. Fact.

  61. Chris S
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 7:13 pm | Permalink

    While MPs voted down Boris’ timetable on Tuesday evening, they did vote in favour of the Withdrawal Agreement itself by a surprisingly large majority of 30.

    This gives us reason to hope that we will be able to leave without a 2nd referendum sometime before the end of the year.

    • Oggy
      Posted October 22, 2019 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

      Chris, I doubt that, I think the reason why they voted in favour of the bill but not the timetable is because the opposition want as much time as possible to add as many wrecking amendments as they possibly can to it. Including a second referendum.

      There is no reason to believe they have suddenly had an attack of the vapours and decided to leave the EU – far from it.

  62. Steve Reay
    Posted October 22, 2019 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

    Now might be a good time to stop those get ready for Brexit on the 31 Oct TV adverts.

  63. Ian @Barkham
    Posted October 23, 2019 at 4:48 am | Permalink

    ‘Parliment thwarted Government again’

    Should read “Parliament thwarted Democracy and the People again”

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    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, He graduated from Magdalen College Oxford, has a DPhil and is a fellow of All Souls College. A businessman by background, he has been a director of NM Rothschild merchant bank and chairman of a quoted industrial PLC.

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