Withdrawal Treaty 2 versus just leaving

My long held view is I want to leave the EU as soon as possible without signing a Withdrawal Treaty. We should offer a free trade agreement to avoid the need for tariffs if the EU would agree to talks after we leave.

Opinion polling shows that just leaving is more popular than accepting Withdrawal Treaty 2. That commands just 19% support. It is more popular than Withdrawal Treaty 1. Withdrawal Treaty 2 is clearly an improvement on 1.  Polls also show a majority of those who want to just leave would rather sign Withdrawal Treaty 2 than remain or delay further if they cannot achieve their first preference thanks to this Remain oriented Parliament.

It is difficult to fathom why so few MPs make the public case for just leaving when it is a more popular option than the policies they advocate and when it is so obviously in the national interest. This dithering and delaying Parliament is creating continuing business uncertainty. It is talking us down. It is making us an international joke. Much of the governing establishment tells us by word or deed they think we should be governed by the EU and cannot manage to govern ourselves.

I thought Ministers, Shadow Ministers and MPs were employed to speak up for the UK, to create a realistic confidence in ourselves and our future. Instead many assist the EU in their negotiations, take their side in disputes when the government does speak up for us, and seem to take pleasure in any bad news as proof the public made the wrong decision.

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205 Comments

  1. Pominoz
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 5:37 am | Permalink

    sir John,

    Boris’s WA is simply not Brexit. It is a commitment to being tied to and ruled by the EU for many years to come and perhaps indefinitely.

    Quite clearly the general public are, from your comments, far brighter than many MPs. But perhaps the past few years have demonstrated that without question.

    Thank goodness we have you there, fighting the UKs corner. Perhaps the push for a 5th December election by the Lib Dems and the SNP may prevent the WA ever being discussed. WE can only hope. Then Boris must make a pact with the Brexit Party.

    • Mark B
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:42 am | Permalink

      The push for an early GE is motivated by political self interest and nothing more. Go over to The Spectator and have a read.

      😉

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 10:54 am | Permalink

        Johnson’s push is for a very early General Election, and you are quite correct.

        There should not be one until June 2022.

        Let the responsible own their own utter, disgraceful mess, and when the public have had a chance to see it for what it is, then let them have their say.

        • Edward2
          Posted October 27, 2019 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

          Getting the impression you are getting a bit nervous and desperate Martin, with the Conservatives and Boris being way ahead in the polls.

          • Dame Rita Webb QC
            Posted October 27, 2019 at 6:59 pm | Permalink

            Being a hardline conservative I am not particularly excited at the thought of Boris being given another five years either. Before you type not voting for him means a Corbyn victory, it was only a few months ago that the Torees were trying to do a deal with him to get theMk I sell out into law

          • rose
            Posted October 28, 2019 at 1:43 pm | Permalink

            Dame Rita, wasn’t it the treating with Corbyn which finally convinced the parliamentary party to ditch the then leader? That was the last straw.

    • Simeon
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 11:57 am | Permalink

      Dear all,

      How does BJ make a pact with Farage when he has so clearly nailed his colours to the mast of what is a recipe for BRINO? Had he not expended all his political capital on achieving this ‘great deal’, whose main purpose is to unite the Tory party in the face of the threat the Brexit party pose, then a deal with Farage would be possible. But even if BJ now wanted to deal with Farage (though there is absolutely no reason to believe he does), how could he without looking even more untrustworthy and ridiculous than he already does? I think Farage would undermine his own party’s credibility and appeal were he to work with BJ, and it’s a racing certainty that he’d be thrown under the bus at the earliest opportunity, even if a Tory-Brexit party pact were successful.

      I am genuinely interested to hear answers to my question.

      • Dame Rita Webb QC
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

        Farage does a non aggression pact with Boris. TBP ends up with a handful of seats, however Boris ends up with a big chunky majority that enables him to do what May never could do with BREXIT and also continue with the liberal Tory agenda uninterrupted from from 2010. TBP becomes about as relevant as Plaid Cymru. The only way the status quo ends is when all the unresolved problems from 2008 come back again with greater force. A Brexit sell out does not really bother me because the establishment have an economic sword of Damacles hanging over their heads

        • Simeon
          Posted October 28, 2019 at 10:51 am | Permalink

          I believe that the appalling way this Brexit business has been mishandled has far greater implications for UK democracy than it does for the everyday lives of the population, and this precisely because of what you mention. The day of reckoning for the world’s financial and economic system is coming, and when it does it will be worse than 2008. The sovereignty of the world’s 5th largest economy, and its relations with the Eurozone will be irrelevant to this. How the UK handles the ensuing economic storm in light of the catastrophic corrosion of trust in our politicians is a fascinating, terrifying question.

      • James Bertram
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 8:40 pm | Permalink

        There can only be a pact with the Brexit Party if Johnson drops his appalling Surrender Treaty and fights the election on a No Deal ticket. That means Johnson sidelining all the traitorous Remainer-reptiles that inhabit half the Tory party, and stiffening the spine of the rest of them. Unlikely to happen.

        • Simeon
          Posted October 28, 2019 at 10:44 am | Permalink

          Agreed.

    • Mary McDougall
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

      I am afraid my opinion is one of a general thought and is that so many Politicians do not support leaving with a “no Deal” (which is not as described it is a WTO agreement ETC. ) because veniality tempts them and they have succumbed . They choose personal fortune and not the people they were elected to speak for.

      • czerwonadupa
        Posted October 29, 2019 at 1:08 pm | Permalink

        Even the Tory leavers are abandoning the 17.4M by putting party before country

  2. Christine
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 6:08 am | Permalink

    The problem is that MPs put their party and themselves before the country. Very few have principles like you John. Leaving with a clean break is a no-brainer decision as opposed to this road crash of a treaty. Now Boris has lost his leaving date he should scrap his treaty and fight a general election on a Clean Break ticket. He should also do a deal with TBP. I’d rather wait another 2 years for an election than sign our country away forever.

    • Mark B
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:43 am | Permalink

      Agreed.

    • Mary McDougall
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

      I agree in part but feel that if Boris cannot attain his leaving date, he should do the honourable thing to show his honesty and resign, thus leaving the field clear for the Brexit party which could then claim the honest leaving politicians to their side and not split the vote.

  3. Mark B
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 6:09 am | Permalink

    Good morning.

    . . . Remain oriented Parliament.

    But we did not vote for a Remain Parliament ? Remaining in the EU or a second referendum was not in the Conservative and Labour Party’s manifesto’s ? We voted for political parties that promises to take us out of the EU. I demand a second general election as cleary people did not know what they were voting for, especially when it comes to MP’s who cross the floor of the House.

    This dithering and delaying Parliament is creating continuing business uncertainty.

    This is a real and major concern and needs to be made an absolute priority subject for discussion.

    It is a deliberate tactic by the Opposition parties. The plan, and it is a cynical and nasty plan, is to damage the government and the Tory Party by damaging the economy. As people lose business’s, jobs, home and even families they will want to take their anger out on someone and, that someone will be the government. This is a wicked, wicked game, played for narrow political gain at the expense of this country and its people. They need to be challenged and called out on this !!!

    . . . many assist the EU in their negotiations, take their side in disputes . . .

    I watched a talk on YT concerning how people in government have become ‘EU Institutionalised’. Essentially they can only see the world through the prism of the EU. We have become infantised and have had our skills as an independent nation reduced. MP’s do not want to Leave because they are ill equipped to face governing a country and would be soon found out.

    But none of that changes anything. We the people were as a simple question with just one of two simple answers to choose from. We choose Leave.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 6:27 pm | Permalink

      Your problem is that winning that referendum did not cause the world’s richest market, and successful association of nations in the history of the planet to disappear, nor to cease physically near-surrounding the UK.

      You and Farage etc. hoped that it would.

      But you have failed.

      • Edward2
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 7:08 pm | Permalink

        Who said they want the EU to disappear?
        More remainer made up nonsense from you Martin.

  4. Here and Now
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 6:11 am | Permalink

    No responsible politician is making the case for just leaving and offering a free trade deal because the EU has made it crystal clear a thousand times over that if the UK leaves without settling it debts, guaranteeing citizens rights and agreeing terms that will keep the Irish border invisible then there will be no talks about a future free trade deal. Why you continue to ignore reality, and instead live in a fantasy world where only the UK’s wishes are relevant, is a question you should try to answer

    • Mark B
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:44 am | Permalink

      All true but . . . !

      . . . no talks about a future free trade deal.

      I’m cool with that !

    • James Bertram
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:59 am | Permalink

      Reality is about MONEY, Here and Now. Do you not remember how quickly the West modified their Human Rights agenda so as to do business with China? Doing ‘Business’ will prevail. That is reality – a simple Free Trade Deal without political strings attached.

    • Tony Bennett
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 11:51 am | Permalink

      Well sir we like the Eu(not like as in love) believe our wishes overrule the other side.
      Secondly we have guaranteed EU citizens rights and we do not have any debts.OH! And the Irish border is made up !

  5. Carson
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 6:17 am | Permalink

    In what sense is Withdrawal treaty 2 an improvement on 1? 1 was negotiated by Mrs May, who said that no British PM could accept the partition of the United Kingdom – and she didn’t. 2, Johnson’s, splits the United Kingdom in two – traders operating between Liverpool and Belfast will need to fill out paperwork going in both directions. How can anyone proud of Britain ever accept that? How can anyone who remembers Brighton in 1984 give the IRA what they have always wanted, a divided Britain?

    • James Bertram
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 10:00 am | Permalink

      Well said, Carson.

    • Fred H
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 11:20 am | Permalink

      Carson, leaving the EU has many facets and advantages. You appear to think the whole subject revolves around NI. It is a small part of the whole get over it.

      • Lonsdale
        Posted October 28, 2019 at 5:02 am | Permalink

        We are leaving the EU to protect the sovereignty of the UK. Johnson’s deal destroys the integrity of the UK

  6. BCL
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 6:19 am | Permalink

    I entirely agree. I think that’s part of the reason they’ve been called traitors. They give the impression, which I hope is wrong, that their sympathies lie with a foreign “country”, the EU, rather than with their own.
    I am so fed up with the likes of Soubry, Greive, Letwin et al doing their best to prevent us leaving. They want a “confirmatory referendum” but that’s what we’ve already had, it confirmed we wanted to leave. They don’t want another referendum of course, they want to reverse the decision. I wish they’d be more honest about their motives.
    Sir John, thank you for all your efforts to put into effect the referendum result. They are enormously appreciated but perhaps that is not as often expressed as it ought to be.

  7. Peter Wood
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 6:23 am | Permalink

    Good Morning,

    One of the greatest disservices perpetrated on the UK by the May government was to persuade everyone that a Withdrawal Treaty is necessary. Very few disputed this, indeed most said an agreement was desirable. This allowed Mrs May and her private team to collude with the EU bureaucracy to produce her terrible Remain Treaty, that has simply been polished by the lazy Johnson government, because he just wants to ‘get something done’.

    We need a GE, the way to get it is for BJ to propose a vote of no confidence in his own administration, as many have suggested. Do that and then we can move on.

    • Mark B
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:46 am | Permalink

      +1

    • miami.mode
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 11:44 am | Permalink

      PJ, if Boris tried to propose a vote of no confidence in his own government, it would probably be voted down. Beyond farcical.

      The way things are with our Remainer MPs, the EU is in full charge of the timetable and as an informed lady said on PM on Friday, even after the signing of the Withdrawal Agreement the prospect of no trade deal could drag on for years and years (almost irrespective of any government).

      The EU has negotiated itself into full control of a constructed departure and as the lady said there is always the possibility of No Deal and the only way to overcome it is Revoke.

      Our host is 100% correct in offering a free trade agreement, getting out, and talking about terms after the event.

      All talk about taking No Deal off the table is nonsense.

    • Mary McDougall
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

      I completely agree. No confidence or a resignation are ideal outcomes

  8. Nig l
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 6:26 am | Permalink

    Indeed and the DUP have broken cover exposing Johnson’s sophistry, showing that he can’t be trusted as we knew all the time, using it solely to promote his own careers as Rees Mogg has who remains ‘criminally’ silent. Equally culpable are the silent ERG more interested in their party’s pole ratings than the national good.

  9. Jon Reade
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 6:28 am | Permalink

    Well said, I think you are in the wrong party.

  10. Ian Wragg
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 6:28 am | Permalink

    I wager we’re still in the EU this time next year.
    The 3 parties are in for a shock when we do manage an election
    Can’t come soon enough.

  11. Julie Williams
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 6:41 am | Permalink

    Your frustration is shared by many and it’s good to know that some politicians want to represent the view of the majority and democracy.
    It is extremely worrying that so many politicians are following their own agendas and ignoring their electorate, even to the point of threatening us with the dilution of our vote by disenfranchising sixteen year olds and foreigners because they believe they will vote the “right” way.
    Parliament is taking this country down a very dark path, not just on the EU, and millions are begging them not to do it, but we appear to be silent.

    • Dennis
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

      ‘….disenfranchising sixteen year olds….’ what about the 13,14, 15 year olds?

      That the 16 and up youth have taken the climate change stuff to heart surely shows that they are mostly incompetent in making informed decisions.

  12. Excalibur
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 6:45 am | Permalink

    Yes, it is difficult to fathom, JR. The only explanation I can offer is that a majority is motivated purely by self-interest. The national interest is secondary. The longer we remain as part of the EU, the more their benefits accrue. delaying indefinitely the need to obtain alternative sources of income.

    I’m afraid you are expecting too much if you expect them to be as honourable as you are.

  13. eeyore
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 6:47 am | Permalink

    True freedom cannot be given but can only be taken. The A50 route has got us nowhere, at no small cost.

    I hope the Conservative manifesto will include a pledge to repeal the 1972 European Communities Act within a month of Parliament sitting unless a far better deal is on offer.

  14. Alan Jutson
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 6:54 am | Permalink

    You do not need to convince the Public John, its our own so called representatives in Parliament you need to convince.

    I often wonder how many Mp’s have actually read and understood WA1 or WA2 or even the Lisbon Treaty and the full implications of such.

    I am sure many Mp’s are simply voting on chosen soundbites from their own Party leaders.

    The SNP have the most strange view of all, they want to be totally independent from the UK, which sends it £ Billions every year, but at the same time they then want to join the EU for which they will need to pay, and probably also need to join the Euro.

  15. Derek Henry
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 7:02 am | Permalink

    They ignore the referendum result and act as if we never had one.

    There will be a day of reckoning sooner or later they can’t run away from it forever. This country will never be the same after this. I’ m convinced more than ever that the brexit party is the only party that will get this done.

    I’m furious nobody challenges the SNP in parliament about the stability and growth pact rules, the 2 pack, 6 pack, excessive debt procedure and corrective arm. That they would have to sign up to via the single market with their ” heart of Europe ” nonsense.

    Just to meet the criteria to get into the EU would destroy the Scottish economy. The SNP would have to reduce the private sector surplus from 8% of GDP to 3% of GDP. Which would be devastating and push Scottish households and businesses into even more debt.

    They are lying about how they will do this. They have started this process and the job figures are the worst in 4 years.

    Nobody is challenging them on this. As they will have to increase taxes and slash government spending to get in.

    • Derek Henry
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 7:06 am | Permalink

      Can Scottish Tories not stop talking about this please ?

      Bring it out in the open in the Scottish media.

    • Tony Bennett
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 11:56 am | Permalink

      Sir more people in Scotland voted leave the EU than voted SNP
      Don’t believe anything the SNP say as they only have big mouths

      • Fred H
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

        Tony Bennett – (what a name) -empty vessels, biggest noise?

  16. Shirley
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 7:04 am | Permalink

    I am utterly disgusted with Parliament, not least because of their determination to prevent a no deal exit, and therefore allow the EU to dictate the terms of our leaving. Everyone knows the Remainer MP’s actually want a bad deal, as they think this will lead to Remain. How can they possibly defend these actions, which are damaging both to the UK, and our democracy.

    I agree that an immediate WTO exit would be the best for the UK’s future and give us real negotiating power. The endless uncertainty and threat to our democracy is far more damaging than a WTO exit.

  17. Lifelogic
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 7:04 am | Permalink

    Indeed my position exactly.

    It is indeed very difficult to fathom why so few MPs make the public case for just leaving – but then it is hard to fathom most of the mad things they do the Climate Change Act for example.

    I generally when feeling generous put it down to the stupidity of MPs. But also to the lack of any understanding of science, maths, logic or economics they show, the many insanities comming from the EU, the confusion of Europe (which I love with the EU which I despise), religions (including the new global warming one), career politicians, corruption and powerful vested interests lobbying (with many MPs acting as paid “consultants) or just pathetic and usually misguided attempts to buy votes using tax payers money.

  18. Simeon
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 7:06 am | Permalink

    Sir John,

    With the most prominent Leaver currently serving as PM, and itching to sign off on a new Treaty that suits the EU’s purposes very well, what prospect is there of the UK offering the EU an FTA?

  19. Lifelogic
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 7:17 am | Permalink

    The Matt cartoon in the telegraph suggests the PM would rather die in a ditch than put the clocks back one hour.

    What a good plan. Why on earth do we insist on the stupidity of changing (just the name after all) of the time for half of the year. Farmers, schools and other can choose when they choose to work or open at different times of the year depending on where they are in the country and their particular circumstances.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 7:19 am | Permalink

      Freedom and choice please and not the governments, one size fits all, bossing us all around as usual. They do not know best at all.

  20. Martin in Cardiff
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 7:21 am | Permalink

    There is no such thing as “just leaving”.

    Any more than getting divorced is exactly the same as never having been married and having children in the first place.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 10:02 am | Permalink

      Of course there is you A. leave the UK government and courts become supreme again and you co-operate as a sovereign nation. Or B you remain and become mere undemocratic regions of the anti-democratic, socialist, one size fits all EU and accept the supreme political EU courts.

      It is A or B.

    • dixie
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 10:06 am | Permalink

      there is no such thing as “just remaining” either but you remainers never want to expose the true disadvantages and costs.

      Strangely, you never want to offer any tangible benefits of value to the majority of people in the UK from membership of the EU.

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 6:33 pm | Permalink

        Maybe your spouse should ask you to prove for certain, that staying with you would be better than if you divorced and they met someone else, wonderful, but as yet unknown as to whether they even exist.

        Your failure to be able to do that, by your approach, would mean that their filing for divorce would be entirely logical.

        • Edward2
          Posted October 27, 2019 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

          You ask others to predict the future with certainty Martin.
          An impossible task.
          Not even remainers can manage that trick.

          • Martin in Cardiff
            Posted October 28, 2019 at 9:38 am | Permalink

            No, if you run blindfold across the M25 then you cannot predict with certainty that you would be killed.

            However, only someone like you would apparently be gullible enough to be talked into doing that.

          • Edward2
            Posted October 28, 2019 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

            A completely ridiculous analogy Martin.
            You can look to over 150 nations who have never been in the EU and see the growth and prosperity.
            Especially those nations in the Anglosphere.
            Better growth, lower unemployment and the joy of being free independent nations.

          • bill brown
            Posted October 29, 2019 at 7:20 am | Permalink

            Edward 2

            So much more nonsense from you

          • Edward2
            Posted October 29, 2019 at 11:05 am | Permalink

            Usual ridiculous non comment from you bill/hans

        • dixie
          Posted October 28, 2019 at 6:34 am | Permalink

          Or, perhaps I might have worked diligently at making the partnership mutually supportive and beneficial, always mindful of my oath to honour, protect and cherish in good or bad.

          Perhaps I did a good enough job which is why we have been together for 40+ years.

          Now, ask yourself whether the EU has been a diligent and supportive enough partner and why they so misjudged things that a significant number of electors voted to leave. And by “EU” I include those creatures in the UK establishment who give their allegiance to the EU and and not the people of the UK.

          Perhaps if there had been a respectful conversation at any time in the last 40 years the relationship between the UK (ie it’s people) and the EU may well have turned out more positively. But in it’s arrogance the EU and it’s agents couldn’t be bothered and decided we don’t count so steamrollered ahead to their preferred outcome.

          In 1975 choosing to remain in the Common Market/EEC was choosing a new unknown partner over those who had been supportive. When finally asked again those same people chose to leave.

  21. Da-da
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 7:22 am | Permalink

    It is quite normal for normal regular people to become over anxious when there is Change in the air. Remainer MPs are normal, regular, not the right people paradoxically for leadership. The have lost it. Without funny reference to losing the Referendum. But that has merely made them more anxious and afraid.
    No one told them when they became MPs they would need to make such adult decisions which may affect them badly. The most they expected was to join with a large number of employees in a safe block or herd and simply vote for this war or that without any personal responsibility. It is too much for them, this decision-making which may impact on their careers an even their families. Of course they fight to Remain.They feel secure and safe staying just as things are.

    • Fred H
      Posted October 28, 2019 at 9:12 pm | Permalink

      Very good argument. However I contest that remainers are normal, regular people. I struggle to find any in a discussion who show any belief in their country -whether England, Scotland, Wales or NI. They all seem to develop extreme reticence to make decisions, be responsible, take pride, view the future optimistically. Leaving the womb, the EU, throws them into the panic of being self-determined. Why face that confrontation when others will do it for you? Subjugation can’t be that bad, surely?

  22. Denis Cooper
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 7:36 am | Permalink

    After the referendum my view was that we had agreed through the Lisbon Treaty that if any member state wished to leave the EU then they should use the procedure newly laid down in Article 50 TEU, and so that was how we should start, but we should reserve the right to “just leave” if the EU mucked us about. However most of the mucking us about has come from our own parliamentarians, not from the EU, and how it would look to the wider world if we were to now up and “just leave”? Even if said parliamentarians were to allow that.

    • Mark B
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 10:28 am | Permalink

      Re-read Article 50. We are allowed to just Leave if we fail to sign an Withdrawal AGREEMENT, not Treaty, after 2 years. Well, it has been more than 2 years so I can say that Leaving without one is about the right thing to do.

    • Simeon
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

      The EU has tenaciously and consistently pursued what it perceives to be its self-interest. It has taken advantage of the incompetence of successive UK governments, together with their failure to provide clear political leadership. It is UK politicians who have made this country a laughing stock. It remains to be seen whether the EU allowing the UK to utterly undermine itself works in the EU’s interest or not.

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

        No, but a Tory government has taken advantage of the incompetence of a significant section of the electorate.

        • Simeon
          Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:11 pm | Permalink

          I don’t know what you mean by ‘No’. The rest of what you say could be interpreted in different ways, so I can only guess at what you mean, though your well trailed views on Brexit are a big clue. I would suggest that rather than ‘incompetence’, you’d be better served using ‘credulity’. People who voted Tory took them at their word. To vote for whoever is to trust them to some degree, even if you are not entirely surprised when they don’t keep their word. I don’t see where incompetence comes into it – unless you were simply suggesting that to vote Leave was to betray a lack of competence to participate in the democratic process…

        • Edward2
          Posted October 27, 2019 at 10:04 pm | Permalink

          What you mean is people who refuse to vote like you.

          • bill brown
            Posted October 28, 2019 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

            Edward 2

            “Free independent nations and low unemployment”
            Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands, Gerrmany, Poland, Belgium Austria, Czech, Slovakia, Slovenia,

            Edward 2 you do sometimes write such nonsense

          • Edward2
            Posted October 28, 2019 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

            Martin said Tory government has taken advantage of the incompetence of significant sectionof the electorate.
            That is what he said.
            Plainly total nonsense.
            You come in with a totally irrelevant response accusing me of writing nonsense.
            Hilarious irony bill
            Or is it really hans?

  23. BJC
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 7:36 am | Permalink

    We appear to have “negotiated” a new treaty that binds us to the terms of the old treaties and for good measure, we’ve thrown in the kitchen sink and NI this time; wasn’t it enough to sacrifice our precious Commonwealth countries and fisheries to satisfy the demands of the insidious EU?

    Anyone would think the EU’s economic model had been a roaring success, but MPs are so indoctrinated they’re incapable of judging the detrimental effect it will have on our own long-term goals and prosperity. Instead, they’ve fought the notion of leaving and trading under temporary WTO arrangements with every fibre of their being, yet couldn’t name a single prosperous country that’s rushed to mirror the EU model.

  24. Roger Phillips
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 7:40 am | Permalink

    I wish you were our MP. Unfortunately we are stuck with Nia Griffith in a Labour stronghold but all that could well change at the next election, I have never heard so many life long Labour voters stating that they will never vote for them again, Labour are in real trouble. For us the choice is simple we will vote for the Brexit party. I cannot vote Conservative and support this dreadful deal.

  25. Stephen J
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 7:44 am | Permalink

    Anyone in Parliament that votes for that treaty, whether it has May’s moniker or that of Doris’s emblazoned across it, is misunderstanding the point of leaving.

    Leaving has absolutely nothing to do with the Tory Party, as I pointed out somewhere previously, this was the behaviour of some Tory MP’s during the Maastricht “negotiations”, against the new treaty, until it threatened the integrity of the party, then total compliance.

    And the purpose was to unite the party, it didn’t do that, and it also meant that the party was out of power for fifteen years, so unity is not a guarantee of anything.

    Best policy is to remain true.

  26. margaret2
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 7:53 am | Permalink

    “Polls also show a majority of those who want to just leave would rather sign Withdrawal Treaty 2 than remain or delay further.” These polls, for what they’re worth, show then that this majority (who have been deliberately lied to ; eg the name itself “Withdrawal Agreement” is a deliberate falsehood) have no idea of the implications of the appalling Vassalage Treaty, this trap, this delight for globalists : these voters are in for a rude shock when Britain starts feeling like an occupied country, all freedoms and prosperity gone. I hope you won’t be swayed by their opinion for fear of being temporarily labelled a “Brexit wrecker.” The VT is as bad or worse than no brexit. BTW I don’t believe that Boris was pushed into this position against his will, and I believe the globalist Tory party always intended some such outcome , cruelly stringing voters along.

    • Mark B
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 10:33 am | Permalink

      😉

    • John Probert
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 11:45 am | Permalink

      Yes your quite right margarets2 the remainers made many false statements and
      ran project fear with a massive budget

      Despite this we voted to Leave

      We should leave immediately without signing any treaty

    • Dan R
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

      Ditto Margaret. I also hope we’re not the only people who see it the same way.

  27. Julian Flood
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 7:54 am | Permalink

    At TBP stalls we’ve been using ball in a bucket polling to assess the mood. The question at the last two has been ‘Who do you trust to deliver Brexit, Nigel or Boris?’
    Nigel wins by more than 2 to 1.

    We hear the T word increasingly used to describe those MPs who vow loyalty to our country and then betray that vow.

    This is not going to end well.

    JF

  28. J Bush
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 7:54 am | Permalink

    3 1/2 years and this useless parliament has achieved nothing, except proving beyond doubt they are self serving deviant liars, who only uphold democracy when the electorate votes the ‘right way’.

    If the UK doesn’t Leave the EU on Thursday, why should anyone vote for any of the establishment parties, when they have proved themselves to be totally untrustworthy?

    • Mark B
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 10:57 am | Permalink

      Exactly !!!!

  29. Anonymous
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 7:58 am | Permalink

    Moreover a visceral hatred of the white English working class has been revealed.

    We always sensed it was there. Now we know it. The defamation of us by middle class Remainers has been disgusting.

  30. Caterpillar
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 7:58 am | Permalink

    I guess Tory MPs don’t make the case because (i) they know it won’t pass through the current parliament, (ii) they want the current neoliberal (all four freedoms) project to continue or (iii) they believe it is a threat to the union (and that that is important).

    In the case of Labour MPs nothing at all makes sense – the PM has essentially argued for a high income compete (in the conventional economic vernacular) on competence not cost future for the UK. Labour should be lining up for the same future. In stead Labour keeps redefining a ‘deal’ as closer and closer to being in the EU e.g. A wideranging CU with a say.

  31. oldtimer
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 8:01 am | Permalink

    You say “It is difficult to fathom why so few MPs make the public case for just leaving when it is a more popular option than the policies they advocate and when it is so obviously in the national interest.”

    MPs are not interested in what people think, only in their own opinions. These they are determined to foist on the rest of us regardless of what the rest of us think. This MP mindset is reinforced inside the Westminster bubble. Brexit is a prime example but there are others such as the mad rush to zero carbon emissions. The House of Commons truly is the House of Stupidities.

  32. Fred H
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 8:04 am | Permalink

    Sir John, I ask you to send this both to Mr Johnson and Mr Cummings. It is precisely what is needed to clarify the Conservative feeling, and indeed so many more who have felt in the last few years that the party had lost its way and was accepting of EU forever. We need to go on the offensive to counteract the laissez-faire attitude so common amonst politicans and the public.

    • Fred H
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 8:45 am | Permalink

      amongst…I blame a dodgy bluetooth keyboard.

    • Sir Joe Soap
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:02 am | Permalink

      Yes Johnson and Cummings need to up the ante-. Having failed on Plan B, the Conservatives need to go back to Plan zero, join with BXP and leave without a Treaty signature.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:14 am | Permalink

      Fred, you and other commenters here claim to be the only “true” Conservatives, when in fact you represent, historically, merely a particular minority within them, arguably on the furthest right possible.

      Ironically, your perceptions and attitudes parallel perfectly, those of certain religious factions, again at the extremes of their movement, who claim to be the only true Believers.

      This puritanism, coupled with a curious electoral system, is why the country is in deep trouble. It is quite clear that you have no regard for the great majority who do not share your views, exactly as those who would impose theocracies on otherwise enlightened people do not either.

      It is ironic, but not in a funny way.

      • Edward2
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 10:37 am | Permalink

        In other news, the Conservatives are 16 points ahead in polls.
        With Boris way ahead of other political party leaders as favoured PM.
        The great majority as you say Martin.

        • Martin in Cardiff
          Posted October 27, 2019 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

          Funny, they were twenty-six points ahead when May pulled her brilliant stunt.

          • Edward2
            Posted October 27, 2019 at 7:06 pm | Permalink

            She ruined her lead with a dreadful manifesto.
            Perhaps the worst offering post war.
            Boris won’t make the same error.

      • Fred H
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 11:17 am | Permalink

        oh dear MIC – – I thought you read my posts, but clearly you don’t. I have been pointing out that the Conservatives have lost the plot for years…..However, if they had 200 Sir Johns all would be well and I might vote for them. Previously it was Monster Raving Loony, and will most likely be Brexit Party. The policies matter to me, not the Party label – – clearly lost on you, but then why should readers here be surprised?

  33. Mrs Alison Houston
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 8:06 am | Permalink

    Dear John, the reason wecannot leave without signing a treaty is because we are committed to EU Defence Union.

    May’s arrangements made this clear. Johnson claims his arrangements make it clear that we will only get involved with EU Defence Union operations on a voluntary basis and that this is a significant improvement on the compulsory nature of any involvement there would have been under May’s withdrawal treaty. But this claim, made in response to a question by Tobias Ellwood, MP, is false and in making it Johnsn also proves every claim made by Earl Howe and the MoD previously was false, since it was claimed during May’s period in office we were not committed to compulsory engagement with EU Defence Union.

    Johnson was in charge at the Foreign Office when plans for full British participation in a non voluntary capacity in EU Defence Union went into overdrive last year. There is nothing in WA2 to support Johnson’s claims we will now only be involved in a voluntary capacity.

    I am afraid things are much worse than you fear. You should stick to your guns about just leaving and not vote for this ‘rejoining’ treaty that leads inevitably to a greater loss of sovereignty than we have now. The only legitimate role of government is defence of the realm, your party wishes to outsource that responsibilityto a foreign power.

    • Sharon Jagger
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

      Margaret Houston

      I have read in several different places about the separate defence treaty that has been signed, that signs us up to EU defence, even if we have left. And I have skimmed through the PD and we are very much married to the EU defence system.

      The Veterans for Britain, in particular, were trying desperately to highlight this some while ago. Other websites have picked up on the story, but it never gets anywhere.

      But actually, that’s like a lot of things…..

      • Lonsdale
        Posted October 28, 2019 at 5:06 am | Permalink

        Perhaps the story never gets anyway because it us totally untrue. There is no secret Treaty

    • Dennis
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 4:03 pm | Permalink

      That Mrs Alison Houston’s point was ignored by JR must show his ignorance on this point. If so he should say so and that he will find out and tell us. This applies to many, many other good points that appear here.

  34. Lynn Atkinson
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 8:06 am | Permalink

    This is not going to end well for the Establishment! But they seem to despise the British people go comprehensively, that they can’t see it.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:00 am | Permalink

      Hopefully not, those many clearly committing treachery deserve to be treated with utter contempt and sent to the tower.

      • Antoinetta III
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

        “…and sent to the tower.”

        Indeed. Where is Henry VIII now that we need him?

        Antoinetta III

    • Andy
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:08 am | Permalink

      The Brexiteers are the establishment. Have you not figured out this yet?

      Public school educated. Oxbridge. Tufton Street funny money. They have it all.

      • Edward2
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 10:39 am | Permalink

        Complete nonsense Andy.
        The rich elite establishment in big business, politics, media and in the quangocracy and charity sectors love the EU gravy train.

      • Fred H
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 11:12 am | Permalink

        How strange Andy that you and hordes of the cowardly Remoaners have constantly told us that we are the uneducated labourers of the UK, and now suddenly when you know the game is up and we ARE LEAVING you claim we are all posh boys….never mind.

      • TooleyStu
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 5:10 pm | Permalink

        That is the most accurate assessment I have read on here.
        +1 for me.

  35. James Bertram
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 8:06 am | Permalink

    ‘It is difficult to fathom why so few MPs make the public case for just leaving when it is a more popular option than the policies they advocate and when it is so obviously in the national interest.’

    It would seem this is not difficult to fathom at all. Almost all (Sir John and Kate Hoey excepted) of the current crop of MPs and political parties put their own party interest and careers ahead of doing the best for the UK, even to the extent of defying the democratic vote and working with a foreign power to subjugate this country. They almost all need to be got rid of at the next election.

    That is why the Brexit Party is such a breath of fresh air – most of them do not want to be ‘politicians’, have their own careers to go back to, are the only party loyal to the idea of ‘Leaving the EU’ fully, loyal to fulfilling the democratic wishes of the people, and always put the interests of the UK above that of their party.

  36. formula57
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 8:08 am | Permalink

    Those MPs who “…assist the EU in their negotiations, take their side in disputes when the government does speak up for us” are deserving of one appearance before an UnBrexit Activities Committee surely?

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:20 am | Permalink

      Well, at least you are honest.

      You do want an authoritarian state, which makes up retrospective laws to eliminate its opposition, and which denies the Human Right of Freedom Of Association.

      We’ve seen that before, haven’t we?

      Thank you for so generously proving the case against you and your kind so comprehensively.

      • formula57
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 10:43 am | Permalink

        @ Martin in Cardiff – Your habitual “empty vessel” approach misleads you on this occasion for there are ample existing laws that only await application.

        • Martin in Cardiff
          Posted October 27, 2019 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

          OK, cite one.

  37. MPC
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    Johnson and Cummings want only to leave with ‘a deal’ so we have read, the ERG has caved so all that’s left for Leavers is WA2. A general election won’t make it any better.

    • Bob
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:25 am | Permalink

      “A general election won’t make it any better.”

      Depends on what you mean by “better”.

      A general election would drain the Westminster swamp of useful idiots and treacherous Quislings, thereby allowing the UK to leave.

      WA2 is not a “deal” and should not be described as such, it would weaken Britain’s position when the time comes to actually negotiate a trade deal.

      • Mark B
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 11:06 am | Permalink

        The Tories are only asking for a GE because they are riding high in the polls. Once this begins to dip, watch them change their tune.

  38. James Bertram
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 8:15 am | Permalink

    Polls also show a majority of those who want to just leave would rather sign Withdrawal Treaty 2 than remain or delay further’

    To me this suggests they don’t yet understand what is in Withdrawal Treaty 2 – it has been falsely sold as a great new deal. This will unravel over a 5 week election campaign; and the treacherous Tories will then be heading for 9% and oblivion – Good.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:24 am | Permalink

      But your fantasy version of Leave, where the European Union disappears, and the British Empire reappears does not exist.

      Cancelling all agreements will not make that happen either.

      • James Bertram
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:53 am | Permalink

        When people like Martin start supporting Withdrawal Treaty 2 then this should tell you everything you need to know – it is a Surrender Treaty.

      • Fred H
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 11:09 am | Permalink

        MIC…..you do have a vivid if daydreaming concept of Leavers.

      • Chris Dark
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 12:27 pm | Permalink

        No-one expects or even wants the Empire to reappear. That is not why we want to leave. You need to step outside Remainer Cardiff and realise that people just want their country back under their own control, laws and to set their own course regarding how and who they trade with, who they want and don’t want living in the country, etc. There is nothing old-fashioned about wanting to be independent, nor about wishing to safeguard our own culture and identity, which is being eroded daily. We ARE presently ruled by a foreign power, no matter which way you bend the conversation….and that must end. And end it will, because the political earthquake will come at the appointed hour.

        • Martin in Cardiff
          Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:20 pm | Permalink

          Bingo!!!

      • sm
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

        You are getting distinctly overheated, Martin. I don’t see any reference to either destroying the EU or recreating the British Empire.

        If President Macron and Chancellor Merkel wish to recreate the Holy Roman Empire, they are entitled to try their hand – we just don’t want the UK to be part of it. And it would be a good idea if they bore in mind that over the centuries, England (sic) has been usually better for them as a rather good friend than as a prospective colony or subject nation.

    • Simeon
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

      I would hope 5 weeks was long enough, although the MSM will not be allies in exposing the truth. Even the anti-Brexit elements will do more to rally support to the Tories by mis-characterising it as a ‘hard Brexit'(!). Though I suspect Brexit party polling is presently underestimated, and also that support will grow for them over the course of a GE campaign, I fear that there will be too many voters who either blindly trust BJ, or that calculate that a vote for the Brexit party is a vote for Corbyn.

  39. Kevin
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 8:18 am | Permalink

    The WA (version 2), so far as I can tell, exists solely to appease the desire
    of Parliament to stop us leaving in the default manner that Parliament itself
    made provision for in its own legislation! I have not seen or heard anyone
    make the case that the WA, of itself, would be a positive benefit. Why would
    you commit to a binding agreement in those circumstances? What is the point?

    • Lifelogic
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 8:57 am | Permalink

      Indeed better than May’s putrid WA treaty but still appalling and far, far worse than just leaving.

  40. Alec
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 8:20 am | Permalink

    To be this blindly destructive of the national interest Remain MP’s must have ulterior motives. In my view this makes them in breach of their terms of employment and, in a just world, guilty of numerous crimes. If I had acted in such an appalling manner I would, out of sheer shame, had to resign and never show my face in public again.

    • Sharon Jagger
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:13 am | Permalink

      That’s the crux of the matter, most of the parliamentarians, have no honour, no integrity. In their minds what they think is correct, if anyone disagrees, they must be wrong. They have this mis-guided idea, that ‘parliament is sovereign’ which they interpret as meaning that what they believe is the way to go, regardless that in the referendum – direct democracy – they should be following out the instruction to the best of their ability.

      I don’t think many realise,their behaviour is authoritarian – mirroring the way the Eu goes about business.

      So because of their belief to remain, actually, they have been working on behalf of the EU, not the UK.

    • Julie Williams
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 11:31 am | Permalink

      Unfortunately, they get to write their own employment contracts.
      Any call for reform is ignored or judged: look at the expenses scandal and rights of recall.
      The MP who switched recently without a by-election but had lobbied for it to be compulsory a few years ago, whatever her name..too many of ’em, just about sums it up.
      We need a massive reform of public institutions, we’ll be offered a few sweeties.

  41. Brian Tomkinson
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 8:21 am | Permalink

    Most MPs voted Remain and, despite all their disengeuos claims to respect the result of the referendum, continue to do all they can to delay, frustrate and still hope and intend to reverse the result and keep UK in their beloved EU. They are a disgrace and have undermined the democracy they were elected to sustain and uphold.

  42. What Tiler
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 8:24 am | Permalink

    “It is difficult to fathom why so few MPs make the public case for just leaving when it is a more popular option than the policies they advocate and when it is so obviously in the national interest.”

    Yes, it is; you mix with these individuals on a daily basis, perhaps you could tell us. My personal opinion is that the majority of them are as thick as mince, and some are bought and paid for.

    • Dave Andrews
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:03 am | Permalink

      Perhaps it’s because MPs largely come from a very narrow subsection of the population, who have never had a proper job, or built a business, and have had their views formed by a homogenous PPE education. In isolation from the rest of the population, they are under the misapprehension that everyone thinks the same as they do.

      • Bob
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:41 am | Permalink

        “MPs largely come from a very narrow subsection of the population, who have never had a proper job, or built a business, and have had their views formed by a homogeneous PPE education”

        Drain the swamp.

        • The Prangwizard
          Posted October 27, 2019 at 10:16 am | Permalink

          We can’t drain the swamp with democratic means. Our democracy has been corrupted by those who think nothing of decency and our freedoms. Why should we not take control?

        • Antoinetta III
          Posted October 27, 2019 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

          Draining any swamp takes time, thus enabling the various swamp creatures to organize against you, as Trump is finding out in the USA.

          The approach needs to be something fast that doesn’t allow the time for your adversaries to organize.

          Something like – Flush the Toilet.

          Antoinetta III

    • Lifelogic
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:09 am | Permalink

      Indeed thick (to be generous), career politicians on the make or acting as paid “consultants” to vested interest. The collaborators deserve far worse than they will receive.

      Let us hope the truly appalling Brecow is never elevated to the Lords and the 21+ traitors are never to be allowed to return to undermine the next Conservative government if we ever get one. A Brexit Party accommodation is essential.

    • Ian Wragg
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:13 am | Permalink

      You do a disservice to mince.
      Most are traitors who hate the general public to whom they should be accountable to.
      We really need a good clear out of the rot in public life starting with Westminster and the geriatric care home of the Lords.
      This is not going to end well for the establishment.

  43. Denis Cooper
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 8:27 am | Permalink

    Just to recall that Vietnam was part of French Indochina:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Indochina

    and although the use of the French language in Vietnam has greatly diminished in recent decades it is still a member of the Francophone group:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_internationale_de_la_Francophonie

    Yet people from Vietnam are prepared to pay large sums and risk their lives to make that final step in their journey to a better country, from France to the UK.

    #despiteBrexit

    • Mark B
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 11:17 am | Permalink

      Not just from France to the UK, but through the whole of Europe passing through Germany.

      Not much of an indorsement of the EU, is it ?

    • hefner
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

      Could it be because in France Vietnamese people (and those outside the EU) would have to apply for a “Carte de Sejour” to access public services after three months (I think) in the country? Whereas the system in the UK is so much more “relaxed” (thanks in particular to its absence of identity card, or universal Social Security number) than anybody arriving and getting support from their “community” could more easily melt in the background and stay in the country for years without ever being noticed (if they live lawfully, obviously).
      So it might not be because the UK is such a paradise but because, especially thanks to those who keep calling for a smaller State, the UK is seen from the outside as a less intrusive place in which to take refuge.
      Is that not a problem for those who call for a 15% GDP state?

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 5:12 pm | Permalink

        Or it might be because those who favour unrestricted immigration from any source and by any route – no nasty “hostile environment” here – have ensured that the UK is a paradise for illegal immigrants. Notwithstanding which, it cannot be said that people risking their lives to get from France to the UK are still fleeing from whatever appalling conditions prevail in their home countries, as they have already left those far behind.

      • Sir Joe Soap
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

        The points based system would be coupled, obviously, with strict rules as to who can stay and for how long. We do indeed need to tighten this up, preferably without bleeding hearts in the NHS etc. fuelling the feeling that it is easy to melt into the background here. If we opened the country up to the young and ambitious from Vietnam, these peoples’ journey would be safer. In the EU, we can’t do that, and they take the risk of dying in transit.

  44. Lucy
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 8:34 am | Permalink

    My long-held view is that I would like MPs to refrain from murdering the English language in their attempt to manipulate the thinking of the electorate.. Constant repetition of ‘dithering and delaying’ and that hideous abomination ‘get Brexit done’ serves only to indicate how juvenile they are. You use the words ‘more popular’. Nobody has asked me which option I would prefer.

    • Bob
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:53 am | Permalink

      ” I would like MPs to refrain from murdering the English language in their attempt to manipulate the thinking of the electorate.”

      Exactly. The BBC and rest of the MSM are just as bad.
      WA2 is not a deal, it’s a putrid Surrender Treaty and the term Honourable Members is very misleading. I have seen very little honour exhibited from those that infest the Palace of Westminster.

  45. Dominic
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 8:37 am | Permalink

    If John is suspicious of what this PM intends then we can be certain that circumvention is on the cards.

    This watershed development has been in the making for decades and will finally confirm all our suspicions that the pro-EU British State in partnership with the EU (Germany and France) will use all their resources at their disposal to destroy any threat to the EU project and the completion of its objective

    Only a fundamental political realignment within the Commons can reverse decades of planned transfer of power away from the UK and to the EU and its aligned bodies

    A vote for Tory, Labour and the other pro-EU parties will in essence mean the continued dismantling of popular democracy to be replaced by an unaccountable political class

    Democracy is now confronted by a political and administrative class determined to destroy it

    • Pominoz
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 10:31 am | Permalink

      Dominic,

      Agree 100%

  46. ChrisS
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 8:38 am | Permalink

    A perfect summary of the position we now find ourselves in.

    When the history books come to be written, this parliament will go down as the most reprehensible and undemocratic in modern times. I don’t think the Remainer majority in Parliament realises just how close it has brought our democracy towards failure.

    Thanks to the actions of the Remainers and the fixed term parliament act, we are within a hair’s breath of Parliament losing the consent of the public and they might yet manage to tip us over the edge.

    Ask yourself the question : Had Brexit been an issue supported predominantly by people of the left of society, rather than those on the right, would we not have seen an unprecedented level of civil unrest, riots even, long before now ?

    • TooleyStu
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

      Maybe not, history is written by the victor.. and we all know how much the 0.01% cabal hates losing.

  47. A joke in time saves
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 8:43 am | Permalink

    People overseas don’t think too much of us. Of course they make jokes about us to alleviate their poor living conditions and their long historical failure. We should be happy to have brought comfort into their miserable lives. Words don’t cost us much. In their countries making such words of their own politics may very well cost their lives. We British are saviours of their bifurcated biased outwards free-speech at our expense. They leave their countries so rapidly and by all means to get here, it is a joke!

    • Bob
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 10:00 am | Permalink

      Lax immigration laws are encouraging desperate people to risk their lives to flee to Britain from the EU.

      • ChrisS
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 6:35 pm | Permalink

        Our immigration laws are not just lax, enforcement is almost non-existent.

        Until those caught are immediately imprisoned and deported the next day, they will continue to try their luck, sometimes with tragic consequences.

        If it is true that those in the container had paid upwards of £30,000 for the trip, they are hardly impoverished innocents looking to improve their lot. £30,000 is a small fortune in Vietnam or China.

  48. Sydney Ashurst
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 8:44 am | Permalink

    Parliament is populated by indecisive WIMPS supported by the establishment, ex politicians and the media.
    They refuse to accept the will of the people who have been bold enough to seek independence.
    The EU is dithering over the requested extension but will grant it. They want to keep plundering the UK’s wealth. Free Trade is anathema to the EU. Level playing field which is anti-competitive shows their fear of an independent UK.
    The Benn Act extension cannot be granted for its stated purpose: It was stated at the very beginning of the Bill: TO Make further provision in connection with the period for negotiations for withdrawing from the European Union.
    The key words are ‘further provision’ and ‘negotiations’.
    A reminder the Cooper–Letwin Act had conditions attached.
    On 10 April 2019, the European Council agreed to a further extension to allow for the ratification of the Withdrawal Agreement by both Parties.
    This extension excludes any re-opening of the Withdrawal Agreement. Any unilateral commitment, statement or other act by the United Kingdom should be compatible with the letter and the spirit of the Withdrawal Agreement, and must not hamper its implementation. Such an extension cannot be used to start negotiations on the future relationship.
    An extension should only be given under specific circumstances,” said Verhofstadt.
    The Benn Act seeks to reopen the WA in order to carry on negotiations.
    The EU Council and Parliament have to state if they will reopen the WA this time. Do they expect a recalcitrant UK Parliament to ratify the WA as previously demanded. That would be leaving the EU.
    Are they correctly interpreting Article 50(3), it does not say you can have multiple extensions.
    Further it is going against Lord Kerr’s statement: “We needed a time limit in order to reassure the departing state that it could really depart — it would get out, it couldn’t be enmeshed forever in endless negotiation, it could escape.”
    That expired on the 29th March 2019.

  49. hefner
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 8:50 am | Permalink

    With reference to Lord Bew’s Review by the Committee on Standards in Public Life published in December 2017 “Intimidation in Public Life”, what are Sir John’s views on the Seven Principles of Public Life and the 30 recommendations (p.20 to 23 of the same report)?
    Would it not be more important than his asking the Minister for the Cabinet Office what plans he has to celebrate UK. Independence on 31/10/2019 or his asking the Secretary for BEIS about his plans to issue commemorative stamps and coins to mark the UK leaving the EU on 31/10/2019?

  50. Everhopeful
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 8:52 am | Permalink

    I believe it is called collaboration?

    • Bob
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 10:25 am | Permalink

      “I believe it is called collaboration?”

      Precisely.

  51. Sir Joe Soap
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 8:55 am | Permalink

    “Much of the governing establishment tells us by word or deed they think we should be governed by the EU and cannot manage to govern ourselves”.

    They are telling us that they have no wish or ability to govern us. Therefore we need wholesale change per BXP or submission to EU rule as per T May philosophy. Somewhere wishy-washy and in-between as you are prescribing, with those without ability or wish governing us, won’t work.

  52. glen cullen
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:01 am | Permalink

    The headlines in the media on the 1st Nov aren’t going to look good if we haven’t left !

    The party will be held in comtempt by brexiters

    Doesn’t matter what the tory stance is at the next GE, they wil be known as the party that didn’t deliver brexit (3 times)

  53. Andy
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:02 am | Permalink

    ‘Just leaving’ is a bit more popular than leaving with a deal – according to polls.

    But also according to polls both are significantly less popular than remaining.

    We know most of you on here do not like Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal.

    And yet he tells you it is Brexit and is the best deal we can get.

    Farage says it’s not Brexit and he wants to storm out in a huff.

    It’s almost as if you Brexiteers still can’t decide what Brexit means.

    And yet you are all certain that you knew what you were voting for.

    Even though you all voted for different things.

    How can this be?

    • John Probert
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 11:29 am | Permalink

      What Brexiteers want is to leave with no deal

      Why would you want to be held back by some rediculous EU treaty ?

      Mrs May sold out Brexit

      Brexiteers only voted for WA 1 or 2 as a compromise position

      We should leave immediately with No Deal

      • Andy
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 3:38 pm | Permalink

        Get a mandate for it then. Because in 2016 Vote Leave promised a deal.

        No deal has no mandate. Plus, as a grown up country, we do not carry out diplomacy by temper tantrum.

        • Edward2
          Posted October 27, 2019 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

          There will eventually be a deal.
          But only after we have left.
          The Withdrawal Agreement be it version one or version two is not a deal.

    • MikeP
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 12:09 pm | Permalink

      Brexit era know that Leaving isn’t Remaining. Faced with polling questions that offer 3 or 4 options for leaving (that split the Brexiters’ vote) is it any wonder people will interpret that as they can’t make their minds up.
      Funny how pollsters never give Remainers options too? Like an EU with/without a Defence Force, with/without police forces that brutally beat and maim their citizens (France, Catalonia), with/without further poor East European states joining who’ll need taxpayer support, with/without the scandalous waste and secretive expenses, with/without the monthly trips to Strasbourg just to please the French.

  54. Sharon Jagger
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:19 am | Permalink

    Another quick comment. There was a New York, European correspondent talking on the radio last week who was really puzzled as to why British politicians seem to look to the EU as a higher authority.

    That just about sums it up – the EU are thought to be superior! (Not in my book, their behaviour is too politburo for my liking)

    • Mark B
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 11:27 am | Permalink

      The original name for the ECSC / EEC / EU Commission was, The High Authority.

      Says it all.

  55. DaveK
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:29 am | Permalink

    Sir John, what confuses me the most is that we supposedly have the ERG and a team to rebut remain disinformation yet I have never seen an item on TV or other media discussing the facts. Why don’t they have social media groups showing up the cliff edge/crisis meme for the project fear it is. This does lead most of my friends to believe we are being hoodwinked.

    • wes
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 11:10 am | Permalink

      you don’t understand the power of anti Brexit media across the board.
      We have witnessed the bias since the referendum and yet the main players are supposedly neutral.
      Freedom of the press is a bit of a joke but the behaviour of the likes of BBC is certainly not a joke. Another swamp to clear.

    • Dennis
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

      ‘…I have never seen an item on TV or other media discussing the facts. ‘

      Nor have I. (Particularly the meaning of that bus poster – shame that even Farage doesn’t understand it let alone any media person. I have never heard it explained altho it being in simple English)

  56. Robert Riley
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 9:32 am | Permalink

    The politicians are trying to make us believe that the EU is the only club in the world where you have to sign a new treaty to leave. Luckily we’re not all as dim as they think we are and come the next election they will find that out.

  57. Jasper
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 10:18 am | Permalink

    I do not understand parliament at all, I think they must be frightened they will have to actually do a job and think for themselves – they will also be held accountable for their actions and decisions. They cannot think past the EU club and cannot see the potential for this great country! There has been no one (in my opinion) as strong as Margaret Thatcher. For example how can anyone put Jo Swinson in the position she is in – she is definitely no states woman!

  58. Geoffrey Berg
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 10:27 am | Permalink

    I suspect some Remainers’ Eurohysteria and their more general ‘Project Fear’ has infected Leave supporting M.Ps. This has helped spread fear among them of significant changes, fear of a different approach, fear of any risk and fear of taking responsibility if things go wrong. This of course is not proper leadership of our country but we are where we are and Boris Johnson’s deal (which is a reasonable compromise) is the best we are ever going to get out of our Parliament.

  59. ferdinand
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 11:15 am | Permalink

    How much influence has the recent legal argument that the EU has breached Article 50 by the present extension? That would mean clean break.

    • julie williams
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

      Unfortunately, probably as much as the others including that of Robin Tilbrook on the very first extension.
      It made me laugh when remainers suggested that they might take Johnson to court for obeying the “Benn Act” in actuality but not “in the spirit”.
      Was Article 50(3) meant to delay a country’s leaving by extension after extension or was it there to give a little leeway on the two-year perion in order to dot the i’s and cross the t’s?
      Does it matter when the only thing that really seems to matter to the remain majority in Parliament and the EU is to stop Brexit in it’s entirety but they haven’t got the guts to do it honestly?

    • glen cullen
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

      The withdrawal agreement cannot be renegotiated (see Article 50(3)TEU EUCO XT 20006/19 section (11))

      Can’t understand why MPs aren’t shouting from the roof tops about this ?

      Also the PM could just ignor the EUs extension ‘offer’ if he wanted too ?

      Strange that the ERG or other MPs aren’t pursuing this angle

      • steve
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 5:08 pm | Permalink

        glen cullen

        “Also the PM could just ignor the EUs extension ‘offer’ if he wanted too ?”

        ……He hasn’t got the guts.

    • Dennis
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 4:34 pm | Permalink

      Where is that legal argument?

      • glen cullen
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 7:58 pm | Permalink

        If you do not satisfy or adhere to

        Article 50(3)TEU EUCO XT 20006/19 section (11))

        You are in breach of the terms of EU treaty

        Both the UK govt for asking and the EU in accepting and offering a further extension are in direct breach of treaty and should be taken to court

  60. Shirley
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    I can agree with the Remainers on one thing, ie. the WA2 is a bad deal. I have been waiting for three years for Remainers to explain why the EU would ever offer us a better deal and what they would do then! Why do journalists never ask this question?

    They should be more honest and admit they want to destroy democracy in the UK and Remain!

  61. Time Lord
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 11:33 am | Permalink

    They can’t help it.
    Which reminds me, Bercow is leaving in four days time.
    Plus one hour. No-one tell him it’s that time of year. Shhhh!

    • Dennis
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

      Will Bercow leave? Has he signed a binding treaty to do so with no let outs?

      • steve
        Posted October 27, 2019 at 5:07 pm | Permalink

        His resignation letter probably contained several ‘amendments’

  62. John Payne
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    Its about time remainer’s were challenged to explain IN detail of what being under EU Laws will bring to this Country in next 10 years and the affect on our SOVEREIGNTY.
    NO-ONE should be allowed to mention the word ‘remain’ in Parliament, on television, in Press and twitter without this challenge being made in the same way as we have discussed trade on leaving EU.

    • Dennis
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

      +1

  63. Dominic
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    The voter ALWAYS makes the right choice. To reject that simple truth is to reject the very foundation of our democracy. Indeed it is the rejection of democracy itself. It is a subtle admission that democracy and popular accountability can be dismantled and replaced by a political approach to the implementation of public policy. It is the embrace of authoritarianism. Such delinquents must be exposed.

    Democratic accountability versus absolute political power. The latter is winning and that fact will lead to disastrous consequences

  64. BillM
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

    Sadly it is the case that in Century 21 he who shouts the loudest always gets heard.
    So, Brexiteers in Parliament, stand up and do it every time you can.
    Let the voice of the people be spoken through the mouths of those who were selected to do the job. Loudly.

  65. L Jones
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

    ”… Polls also show a majority of those who want to just leave would rather sign Withdrawal Treaty 2…”

    I presume these ”polls” involve mainly MPs or those with their own self-serving agenda, Sir John. I haven’t heard or read of any truly committed leaver advocating that this surrender treaty should be signed off, simply because they’re tired of the struggle. We are being treated as ill informed and easily bamboozled remainers have been treated. Most of us ”little people” have taken steps to inform ourselves of EXACTLY what this Mark II surrender treaty involves. All MPs should understand by now that we leavers know what is being foisted upon our country in this ”deal”.

    It does NOT allow that we can ”just leave” the poisonous clutches of the EU. It leaves us shackled. We know that full well. Many leaver MPs might indeed be fed up and wish to sign and move on, and leave such an annoying irritation behind – but for those of us who really care about our country’s well being, this is a matter of either freedom or loss of independence. We’re not fooled.

    • bill brown
      Posted October 28, 2019 at 8:43 am | Permalink

      L Jones
      “this is a matter of either freedom or loss of independence”

      Very colourful language but total nonsense and not very helpful for you are beginning to sound like what you accuse the Remainers of.fake news, but you have dome this before

  66. James Snell
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    That’s why some call you the ‘headbangers’ because you keep repeating the same mantra about leaving without a formal agreement and then think you can waltz straight back in again with your version of a FTA and think the EU is going to agree to this? just where on earth do you get this bonkers thinking from- did you fall on your head at some stage?- business and political life is just not like this. Then all of these popularity polls quoted from UK sources- but they are not the popularity polls of Brussels or the people of your neighbouring countries? so how do you square that? probably just more delusional thinking with a good dollop of wishing that you can bulldoze your way to that special cherry picking dream deal of equal partnership you promised us all way back three years ago and all according to how you Sir JR would have it. Bonkers stuff! it ain’t going to happen nor anything like it

  67. Ignoramus
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 12:43 pm | Permalink

    What has been overlooked/distorted/suppressed is that the fundamental threat from the EEC/EU was recognised 44 years ago. Have a look on Youtube at Peter Shore (former Labour minister for those too young to remember him) at the Oxford Union debate of 1975 about Europe. His highly critical speech was given a huge reception.

    So much for generalisations about Oxford.

  68. Edwardm
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    Exactly.
    JR ought to be offered a leadership role in the cabinet.

  69. John Lewis
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    Dear Sir John,
    Thanks again for your input and all 72 comments which followed. I have read them all. I recall an American actor by the name of “Rip Torn” (actually Elmore Rual Torn) who in one of his films had this line– “Only one thing worse than a Politician, and that’s a goddamn Child Molester” Things are getting pretty close to that remark, present company excepted. For those readers who think we only have the big three parties to vote for then they may find a more agreeable berth with the likes of the “Democrats & Veterans Direct Democracy Party”. They are keeping their powder dry and giving TBP all necessary support on the run up to Brexit, but will come into their own once sorted.

  70. Gordon Nottingham
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    Just to say. Roger Bertram and James Phillips I agree with your posts dated 27/10/19.
    I have a question for ANDY re your post of the 27/10/19. Can you explain how Nigel putting up 650 candidates means storming off in a HUFF? Also could you advise what planet are you from? Your world does not appear to be in this galaxy. Although I suppose that you may be entitled to your opinion no matter how ODD. Please note that any threats will be IGNORED.

  71. Steve Reay
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    The E.U wouldn’t begin free trade talks until a withdrawal agreement has been sorted first, they’ve already said this.

  72. agricola
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    It is not hard to work out why; they do not wish to leave, they wish to remain. There are many reasons why which I will not itemise. The sickening truth is that so many of them are intent on denying the expressed desire of those they represent following numerous instances of indicating the opposite. We have a totally useless Parliament which only a General Election can resolve.

  73. Rule Britannia
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

    Yes, my sentiments exactly.

    And the reason why I distrust this government. They should have refused Assent for the surrender act, there are too many long-term agreements in WA2 such as ECJ jurisdiction, fish etc to make it acceptable.

    I fully expect the BXP to say that their policy is to withdraw from the treaty once in power and that they are giving notice early, since that is the way sovereign States mitigate the fall-out from that course of action (the longer the notice the less the impact therefore any “international opprobrium” is managed / minimised).

  74. Boptah
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    As far as i am aware. We leave the EU on Oct 31st with no deal currently. There is no obligation for Boris to accept an extension because Parliament has consented to implement the WAB as per the Letwin amendment. and so this has neutralised the surrender Act.
    the 2018 Withdrawal agreement takes us out on Thursday. Unless there is a better offer of course.

    • steve
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 5:02 pm | Permalink

      Boptah

      We will not be leaving on 31st, as there will be an extension by the EU, You have Hillary Ben to blame for that, and of course Boris for complying with bogus laws invented by traitors.

  75. bill brown
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 3:51 pm | Permalink

    Sir JR,

    This is unfortunately a very one sided argument about a number of your fellow MPs and it sort of puts you in the same category as the Project Fear antagonists you have been talking about in the past and I am sure you can do better than that?

  76. DavidJ
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 4:27 pm | Permalink

    Parliament is an ongoing disaster. With the exception of a few MPs such as Sir John they are committing daily acts of sedition or treason which, had our law on such matters not been rendered ineffective by Blair, would have seen them languishing in jail awaiting trial.
    If our democracy is to survive then we need robust sedition and treason laws with severe penalties.

    • bill brown
      Posted October 28, 2019 at 8:37 am | Permalink

      David J

      This has nothing to do with treason or sedition so please stop your nonsense

  77. steve
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    David J

    “If our democracy is to survive then we need robust sedition and treason laws with severe penalties.”

    Blair got rid of the treason laws, unsurprisingly.

  78. TooleyStu
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    Fabulous replies again from the common people (no insult there at all).
    This web blog has to be applauded for its honesty.
    But..Expecting Govmnt to sort this out.. well, ain’t going to happen any time soon.

    I would suggest, if you wish to know more background, to look up the following:
    Club of Rome
    Trilateral Commission
    Council on Foreign Relations
    Bilderberg Group
    Europaische Wirtschafts Gemeinschaft 1942

    Then all this Brexit pantomime makes perfect sense, and can almost be predicted event by event. It is the perfect ‘Dive and Rule’ and, for the 0.01%, is the gift that keeps on giving.

    Tooley Stu

    • TooleyStu
      Posted October 27, 2019 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

      Correction:
      Divide and Rule.
      Or ‘Divide et impera’.. which translates from Latin to Divide and Conquer (order).
      As old as the hills.. and still working.

  79. Lorryer
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    The BBC and Sky News have in the last week started using the old word ‘lorry’ instead of ‘truck’. Fine by me. I use both, but why the sudden change? Who decides? Does each organisation have a special Lorry Committee?

  80. Trumpeteer
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    I cannot think of any other leader in this world except Trump who could have arranged for many US attack helicopters to fly in at low level over territory held by Russian, Turkish , Kurdish and even Official Syrian forces who had use of ground to air missiles, at this time!!!. In full cooperation and with advance notice.
    Yet our media cannot bring themselves to say anything good about Trump and trash the idea “it will not solve anything” “it is only…… a symbolic victory”
    Who owns our media? Is it a Columbian drug dealing cartel?

  81. Who ARE you?
    Posted October 27, 2019 at 7:02 pm | Permalink

    Mr Umunna MP was on the Sophie Ridge Show today.

    Labour Party until 18th February
    then Independent Group,
    then Change UK Group ,
    then June announced he is LibDem.
    No Bi-Election in his Constituency.
    He advises us that in the interests of democracy we have to……erm…well who cares?????????????????

    • Fred H
      Posted October 28, 2019 at 9:58 am | Permalink

      and he’s not the only MP who has to keep a piece of paper with his current party written down on the bedside table.

  82. Lorraine
    Posted October 28, 2019 at 7:29 am | Permalink

    Boris prorogued parliament when he need not have done galvernising Remainers into action, he called off the philibuster which allowed the Ben Act to pass through parliament and he revived May’s WA surrender Treaty. I do not trust Boris!

  83. Alison
    Posted October 28, 2019 at 7:30 am | Permalink

    So few MPs make the public case for just leaving because of ‘Project Fear’, and because peer pressure has engineered that, if you support a clean break, WTO exit on 31 Oct, you are an evil person who doesn’t mind seeing hardship and chaos.
    My question to the government: why haven’t you withdrawn Philip Hammond’s Treasury forecasts and issued a fresh set, publishing the underlying assumptions (which should be reasonable not designed to produce a very bad forecast)?
    Mr Hammond no longer has the Tory whip, and is working against Brexit, so what is there to lose?

  84. Lorraine
    Posted October 28, 2019 at 7:30 am | Permalink

    Boris prorogued parliament when he need not have done galvernising Remainers into action, he called off the philibuster which allowed the Ben Act to pass through parliament and he revived May’s WA surrender Treaty, albeit with the Backstop removed. I do not trust Boris!

  85. Peter
    Posted October 28, 2019 at 10:11 am | Permalink

    John,

    Please could you edit your post to include a link to the poll that you referenced?

    Thanks

  86. Julian Allder
    Posted November 3, 2019 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    Sir John
    What is your current position on the Boris Johnson withdrawal agreement?
    Is it Brexit in name only or a truly good deal?

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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