Migration

I see the Home Secretary is pledging to cut net migration once we leave the EU, bringing freedom of movement from the EU into the UK to seek work and related benefits to an end. Other parties in the election wish to continue with EU freedom of movement.

The numbers need working out in detail when we leave. The government will be happy to welcome students to UK universities, highly skilled workers to well paid jobs, and lower paid workers to important areas with low domestic availability of labour. There is talk of an agricultural worker scheme for example. The plan is to have a fair system for evaluating demand for Labour and eligibility for applicants.

The important thing is we can decide and control the process.There will also continue to be a fair system for helping refugees.

Total numbers need to be sustainable and give plenty of opportunity to people already legally settled here to get available jobs.

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179 Comments

  1. RichardM
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 7:53 am | Permalink

    EU workers compete on a level playing field. Tories just want cheap Asian workers who will work for no sick pay no holiday pay which lowers standards for all.
    Tech companies in Thames valley are full of such workers who are replacing us.

    • Hope
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

      High part time employment would be an accurate statement JR. employment at the cost of benefits! A lot of people do not want to work a full week because it will reduce their benefits! Another draw for mass immigration and dire public services.

    • NickC
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 5:08 pm | Permalink

      RichardM said: “EU workers compete on a level playing field”. No they don’t. Which planet are you on – the planet of local government fixed pay for a job?

      Out in private industry the pay is as low as the employee will accept. That means in my experience EU workers often get less than UK workers for nominally the same job. Then even if their work is substandard they are regarded initially as a bargain. The substandard work only comes to light afterwards when it’s too late.

      • RichardM
        Posted November 14, 2019 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

        NickC In my experience on planet earth they don’t.
        They are entitled to same sickness and holiday benefits thanks to UK and EU employment laws, that the Tories aim to slash post-brexit.
        Indian Tech outsource companies employ people on a fraction of the wages and benefits that UK workers receive.

        • Narrow Shoulders
          Posted November 15, 2019 at 8:16 am | Permalink

          UK and EU employment laws (emphasis on UK employment laws) apply to all employees.

          Your point is completely wrong. Much immigrant labour is cheaper than UK labour and temporarily keen while they make money to take home.

        • a-tracy
          Posted November 15, 2019 at 11:26 am | Permalink

          Richard M
          UK holiday benefits are not a result of the EU employment laws at all. The UK holiday benefit terms including for zero hours workers are more generous than the EU at 28 days pro-rata when the EU is 20 so you experience is incorrect. The Tories have no intention of slashing these benefits that is also incorrect.

          As for sickness benefits, SSP (statutory sick pay) was in existence long before the EU Working Time Directive. This was also a UK benefit not an EU instruction. The government used to refund small enterprises the costs of statutory sick pay now it doesn’t it is covered by the employer.

        • NickC
          Posted November 15, 2019 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

          RichardM, You need to read what I actually wrote rather than wading in with your knee-jerk reaction. I stated that EU workers often get less pay. I did not mention work related benefits.

    • libertarian
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

      Richard M

      Stop telling lies

      Its ILLEGAL to employ people on the basis that you claim

      In the EU of the 27 counties 10 have no minimum wage or min wage of less than £2 per hour, no EU country has better workers rights than the UK

    • tim
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 8:35 pm | Permalink

      RichardM- workers who will work for no sick pay no holiday pay , I think that includes most of us, zero hours contracts via third party agents.

      • libertarian
        Posted November 15, 2019 at 11:21 am | Permalink

        tim

        Oh dear yet another one who doesn’t understand zero hour contracts

        Anyone on a ZHC is entitled to full workers rights . They all qualify for sick pay and holiday pay no matter who they work through

      • a-tracy
        Posted November 15, 2019 at 11:31 am | Permalink

        tim – then the person you are working for is breaking the employment laws in the UK – zero-hours workers are entitled to holiday pay pro-rata. One days holiday per 9 days worked whether agency, directly employed.

        If you are self-employed then you account for your own holidays by charging the cost of your holiday on top of the normal hourly rate for a PAYE Employee, as PAYE Employers have to charge in their rates to cover everyone they employ holidays and other social benefits provided as employers. That’s why the self-employed are typically paid more per day than a paye worker to cover their own holidays, national insurance, sick cover and maternity/paternity statutory pay.

    • Edwardm
      Posted November 21, 2019 at 11:54 am | Permalink

      You are right – I work in software and electronics technology, was made redundant in my 50s and I can rarely get interviews. From the few interviews I’ve had – some companies seem to have numbers of foreign workers.
      There is displacement going on – aided by our political classes – yet they want us to work longer before getting state pension.

  2. Will Jones
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 8:01 am | Permalink

    And give incentive to train people here – that bit often gets forgotten.

  3. Martin in Cardiff
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    It’s a pity that John will apparently not permit the posting of diligently researched statistics on this topic, taken from the Government’s very own commissioned report.

    But in broad terms, people from elsewhere in the European Union are on balance highly beneficial during their time here, more so than UK-raised people.

    That is not the case with people from the wider world, but we are told that these will be accepted in greater relative numbers after leaving the European Union.

    Indeed, the figures show that is already happening.

    Reply The figures you wish to show are misleading at best. You need to account for in work benefits, costs of NHS provision, housing provision and additional utility and transport provision etc. Your figures included no capital costs. I seem to remember the EU once estimated the capital costs for a new migrant to an EU country at about Euro250,000

    • NickC
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 5:16 pm | Permalink

      Martin, You have an inflated idea of your own capacity for “diligent research”. I have not seen anything from you that is not skewed and self-serving. And the only thing “diligent” about you is your diligent promotion of a foreign power to rule us.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

      They aren’t my figures though, John.

      They are those from your party’s Government’s own commissioned report.

      These are not new migrants from outside the European Union to a member country, but movements within it. Your last sentence is not clear on what is meant.

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted November 14, 2019 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

        Furthermore, the costs that you list are simply applicable to people per se, and could equally be saved by not increasing the UK-born population, rather than by excluding more productive people from elsewhere in the European Union.

        • Narrow Shoulders
          Posted November 15, 2019 at 8:20 am | Permalink

          I am sure you agree we have a duty to those born here but not to those who arrive.

          Furthermore the rate of increase of those born here to those born here is manageable in terms of improved infrastructure. Importing numbers is not

          • Martin in Cardiff
            Posted November 15, 2019 at 10:07 am | Permalink

            You might research the demographics, as to which groups here are causing the most rapid population growth.

            It absolutely is not people from elsewhere in the European Union.

    • libertarian
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

      Yeh Marty

      And MacDonalds can pay workers £15 per hour and the NHS can work on a 4 day week

      Why are socialists always so dumb about straightforward arithmetic

      • Narrow Shoulders
        Posted November 15, 2019 at 8:21 am | Permalink

        Maccy Ds can indeed pay servers £15 per hour but the queues will lengthen as employees reduce or it will move to self service

  4. Christine
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 8:17 am | Permalink

    Highly skilled workers to well paid jobs? My son works as a IT contractor and he is being passed up constantly for immigrants who are cheaper to employ. This situation has become more of a problem over the last 2-5 years. What about us, the indigenous people? I am sick and tired of hearing how immigrants are a valuable asset to this country. We need to train and employ our own people to do jobs ranging from medicine to agricultural work, not take in people from all over the world. And if I had an iota of confidence in the Border Force, I might be more welcoming to overseas students who come here to study at our tertiary education establishments but it is completely inept and unfit for purpose and has no idea whether ‘students’ return to their home countries or just join the million plus over stayers and illegal immigrants who live below the radar, never pay taxes but nevertheless use our schools, GP practices and hospitals.

    • NickC
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

      Christine, Very well said. Thank you.

    • libertarian
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 8:12 pm | Permalink

      Christine

      Nonsense there are 39,000 unfilled IT jobs in UK currently

      • APL
        Posted November 16, 2019 at 8:40 am | Permalink

        Christine: “My son works as a IT contractor and he is being passed up constantly for immigrants who are cheaper to employ. ”

        Libertarian: “Nonsense there are 39,000 unfilled IT jobs in UK currently”

        There may be 39,000 unfilled IT jobs in the UK, but what is Christine’s son expecting as remuneration? Are the jobs below his asking salary? Are they in a different IT discipline?

        How many of the 39,000 jobs advertised in the UK but actually recruited from Asia? A good trick. Then people can stand up and say – there are 39,000 unfilled IT sector jobs in the UK.

        And supposing you Libertarian are correct and there are 39,000 job vacancies in the UK. That’s a damming indictment of the UK education system.

        I’ve spoken to people who work in the sector, nearly all the British people have concerns about foreign immigrant labour undercutting their careers.

        Christine’s anecdote is not nonsense.

  5. Alan Jutson
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 8:20 am | Permalink

    Will these promises be any better or more accurate than previous ones ?

  6. Narrow Shoulders
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 8:20 am | Permalink

    Anyone who comes to this country should be welcome but should stand on their own feet.

    No benefits should be paid to anyone arriving at our shores. Schooling and health should also be chargeable

    • glen cullen
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

      you mean like every other country in the world

      • Fred H
        Posted November 14, 2019 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

        Glen – – we are slow learners……

    • NickC
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

      Narrow Shoulders, Exactly right.

    • tim
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 8:39 pm | Permalink

      Narrow Shoulders- well said, if they did this there would be no problem at all, because people would simply no come to the uk.

  7. Bob
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 8:21 am | Permalink

    Nick Robinson on BBC R4 Toady program this morning sounded as if he was urging his Lib Dem interviewee to change strategy in order to more successfully block Brexit.
    Not even pretence of impartiality.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

      He might have been trying to expose the Lib Dems doublespeak.

      They claim in words that their paramount objective is to cause the UK to remain in the European Union.

      On the other hand, their actions demonstrate that it is, in fact, to cause Labour to lose this election, in turn negating their verbally declared intent.

      That is a journalist’s job.

      • NickC
        Posted November 15, 2019 at 1:16 pm | Permalink

        Martin, Well that is good news from you for once. Normally you sneer at patriotism, and want the country to disappear into your EU empire.

  8. Ian Wragg
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 8:24 am | Permalink

    The WA and PD make it clear that freedom of movement under whatever name will continue as part of any trade agreement together with shared access to UK fishing waters.
    Not only that but it enshrines super citizen status on EU immigrants not available to the UK taxpayer.
    Discus…….

    • hefner
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

      Ian Wragg, in the last few weeks you have repeated this ‘super citizen status’ for EU27 immigrants not available to UK natives. I am a bit confused by this: could you please give more details on this privileged status? Thanks in advance.

      • Ian Wragg
        Posted November 14, 2019 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

        The WA confers entitlement to benefits for EU citizens and their families no matter how short a period they reside here. It also entitles their as yet unborn child lren and family members.
        Any dispute will be settled by the ECJ.
        Go onto the Europa websight and see what a crock of doo d’s the WA really is.

      • Christine
        Posted November 14, 2019 at 11:34 pm | Permalink

        EU citizens will be able to bring their non-EU spouses/partners to live in the UK. A UK citizen no longer has the right to do this unless they meet a certain income threshold. This gives EU citizens greater rights than UK citizens and enables sham marriages to continue.

        • Stred
          Posted November 15, 2019 at 8:46 am | Permalink

          My Asian born mate tells me that there are immigration agencies that facilitate the provision of job offers with salaries over £30k. The job is fictitious and the Home Office will not check or deport. It cost a few thousand but is affordable to people with low pay who will be much better off in the UK on benefits.

          • a-tracy
            Posted November 15, 2019 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

            Stred, once their fictitious job has evaporated are they entitled to benefits or not? How long do they have to live here to get benefits?

          • APL
            Posted November 16, 2019 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

            a-tracy: “are they entitled to benefits or not? How long do they have to live here to get benefits?”

            Just a thought. Our resident MP, having been in the job for thirty years, will know this stuff like the palm of his hand. Having passed all the legislation into law and all.

  9. Newmania
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 8:48 am | Permalink

    I think you can safely assume you have the xenophobic vote in the bag – best move on

    • NickC
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

      Newmania, Oooohh, look, there’s a rabbit. A “xenophobic” rabbit, no less. Your knee-jerk epithet of “xenophobia” doesn’t work any more. It has been used too often. And it is used to divert attention from the sheer numbers. And from the unfairness of the National Health Service (etc) being used as the International Health Service.

    • Anonymous
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

      Best not move on otherwise you’ll be getting Corbyn.

      It will not work out well for the middle classes in Lewes, so stop lying about us.

      You keep on slapping the working class Tory voters about the face though. Like sawing away at the branch you’re sitting on.

      On the other hand carry on. We’re going down so you’re coming down with us.

    • Gareth Warren
      Posted November 15, 2019 at 8:46 am | Permalink

      I suppose its xenophobic to want free trade with Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the US?

  10. Fedupsoutherner
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 9:04 am | Permalink

    At the moment my biggest concern is the numbers of illegal immigrants managing to find their way into our country and just disappearing into the ether. For an island we are not doing very well on controlling illegal immigration let alone getting a policy in place for those wanting to enter legally.

    • agricola
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

      Solution, introduce a national identity card. Conduct the process over two years at the end of which those without one are probably illegal. You can then decide what you are going to do about it. Make sure it is conducted by a responsible body with access to a national data base that can cross refer with others such as the DVLA , HMRC, Passport Office, Police Criminal Data Base, NI Office, Et Al.Before anyone gets over excited I would point out that we must be one of a very few countries in the World that does not do this.

      • a-tracy
        Posted November 15, 2019 at 12:43 pm | Permalink

        What is the argument against a national id card? It could come with your passport renewal, driver’s licence renewal or national insurance card.

    • agricola
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

      Solution, introduce a national identity card. Conduct the process over two years at the end of which those without one are probably illegal. You can then decide what you are going to do about it. Make sure it is conducted by a responsible body with access to a national data base that can cross refer with others such as the DVLA , HMRC, Passport Office, Police Criminal Data Base, NI Office, Et Al.Before anyone gets over excited I would point out that we must be one of a very few countries in the World that does not do this…..

  11. glen cullen
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 9:06 am | Permalink

    It’s a complete and utter cop out by political parties by talking in generalisations, that is, to maintain a fair level of migration

    By not putting a clear figure on migration numbers you are telling the electorate that
    1 you haven’t a clue about the actual numbers
    2 you don’t care about the actual numbers
    3 we don’t really know how to control the numbers and
    4 the numbers are so big that we’re scared of telling the people

    • agricola
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

      This is fanciful. As a country, fed by the demands of the public sector and industry you allow in those you need. No politician should be expected to have the answer. The NHS is supposedly short of 100,000 medical staff. Take away the ones you are training, define their functions and you have a figure for what you need. Get industry and the agricultural industry to do the same and you are on the way to the figures you want.

      • NickC
        Posted November 14, 2019 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

        Agricola, We could train more UK born medical staff. We have the young people with good A levels, aptitude and enthusiasm but we turn down most.

    • acorn
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

      The thing is glen if there are 66.8 million citizens and 13.8 million are under 18, leaving 53 million who could register to vote. The expectation from various sources is 47 million will be on the register for Dec 12th. So why are the other 6 million dodging the column?

      • Fred H
        Posted November 14, 2019 at 5:22 pm | Permalink

        extreme boredom?

  12. Hope
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    I note Brandon Lewis doing the media rounds on media today blaming the EU for the Tory party failure to deliver on three election promises over nine years! What an absolute shyster. His comments should be seen for what they are: specious rot. It was the govt policy to have historic high numbers of immigration and historic highs of illegal immigration. It is not possible to lose hundreds of thousands of people. If it were then the Tory govt must accept the crime that emanates from it. Was it not Osborne who said no one was serious about it?mwhich,seems to confirm the lies told by the Tory party over nine years. Come,on Brandon tell us about Rudd, May and Osborn over immigration and illegal immigration. Johnson wants to give them an amnesty!

    Remember Rudd losing 56,000 illegal immigrants and the very next day told police chiefs any request for more money would fall on deaf ears! Bearing in mind under Mayhab she lost hundreds of thousands to the system! Now we have Johnson saying he is to increase police numbers, wow, as if we should be grateful because his govt that he was part of decided to deliberately cut numbers tell them not to ask for numbers when knife crime and murder rate at historic highs!

    Tory party beyond redemption for the lies it will tell to get elected. It is their record and must be held to account.

  13. turboterrier
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 9:18 am | Permalink

    Sir John

    The best way for the government and politicians in general would be for them to accept the expectations of the electorate on immigration and after years of talk and failed targets it is time to under promise and over deliver in making any reductions achievable.
    The first priority has got to be addressing and cracking down hard on the illegal immigration traffic. Make it perfectly clear all illegals will be returned immediately from whence they came within 72 hours of being found. Investment will have to be found for our border forces and front line immigration people , but until this is sen and perceived to be in force and working the public will remain very cynical in that as normal it is only words. Traffickers and those found employing illegals must be prosecuted and like criminals have all their assets seized to reclaim cost incurred by HMG. The time for playing hard ball has arrived and the risk factors and consequences has got to be elevated.

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted November 15, 2019 at 11:43 am | Permalink

      Totally agree Turbo.

  14. agricola
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 9:21 am | Permalink

    As with food we should concentrate on producing through education many more who could become doctors and nurses. Immigration should never be a matter of numbers, it should relate to need. We should bare in mind that every person we import is a loss to the country that educated them.

    We could limit the need for agricultural workers by advancing the developement of AI picking machines. We could also insist that many of the young on benefits be forced to work in agriculture. If eastern europeans can travel hundreds of miles to work in the UK then our own can travel tens of miles.

    The size of the UK population impacts on the quality of life here. I contend it is far too large and contains a sizeable illegal element that should be returned whence they came. It all bares on every element of our infrastructure and by not dealing with it it becomes an ever growing burden on said infrastructure. It is an accelerating problem.

    Finally I would say that those who come legitimately should be treated in no less a way than the indigenous population.

    • agricola
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

      While you are deciding when to moderate todays contribution I read an article that confirms that Rolls Royce have taken up a suggestion I made a few years ago. I asked them as manufacturers of nuclear submarine propulsion units why they had not produced a civil version to add to the capacity of the grid. They never answered but today I read that they are working on such a project with £36 million government money and a similar amount of their own. Question is, how many submarine units are needed to power the country. All they need is a constant source of cooling water and evants of late suggest we are not short of that. A further suggestion, to minimise any security risk why not locate them inside military bases. It obviously pays to ask questions and think outside the box.

      • Fedupsoutherner
        Posted November 15, 2019 at 11:42 am | Permalink

        Agricola. What a great idea placing them in military bases. Even the cadet training area near us is manned 24/7 and security is tight. No extra expense for safety.

  15. Gareth Warren
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 9:30 am | Permalink

    This seems area that is overly political, too many politicians seem to believe it is generous to give away other peoples money by allowing largely unskilled people into the country.

    Here I do not agree with the maths that importing workers to do low paid jobs increases our prosperity, it increases GDP, but not per capita. We also have a welfare state, where we pay for health and old age, this should also be taken into account.

    Here I would prefer opportunities were given to our own first with requirements to pay a large surcharge to import workers, the low paid work I used to be able to get while in education has been replaced with debt, not a healthy change.

    • Anonymous
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 6:41 pm | Permalink

      We should be awash with doctors and nurses by now if the BBC reports were true about the skills of refugees coming here.

  16. Lifelogic
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 9:32 am | Permalink

    Indeed the important thing is we are in control and we take the best people as we need them. Not people who will be a large net liability on the tax payers, the NHS or serial criminals as we so often do now.

    I learn from the Spectator today that:-

    This year’s central government budget for building new flood defences and maintaining existing ones is £815 million, less than one tenth of the £9.8 billion which the government and consumers spend subsidising “renewable” energy.

    I imagine most of the the £815 million is actually spent on bureaucrats, endless PR, reports, gold plated pensions and posh offices rather than any real action on rivers and flood systems too. Why are we spending anything subsidising renewable energy? In the main most house flooding can easily be avoided with some proper maintenance of rivers and sensible flood defences. But government would, it seems, rather waste 12 times as much on intermittent, expensive, job exporting green crap.

    Pictures of the huge bird and bat chopping wind turbines are so much better for government, save the world, virtue signally PR use than a new drainage system or sewer I suppose.

  17. miami.mode
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 9:34 am | Permalink

    Whilst the vast majority are against illegal immigration, most will sympathise with the Vietnamese who died recently in a freezer lorry and the single Kenyan who fell from an aeroplane in London.

    All the deceased have been identified and according to reports all their families would like to have the bodies back home to grieve properly.

    In contrast to them we are not a poor country and plainly the families of these people are not wealthy so with the amount we spend on foreign aid and the respect we normally show the dead they should be sent home at our government’s expense pronto.

    • Gareth Warren
      Posted November 15, 2019 at 8:43 am | Permalink

      While I am not happy these people died I also am not emotionally invoolved. What is more depressing about this stuation is that many of these migrants spent the cost of a new car to get here illegally.

      This money invested in their country could vastly improve it, yet instead it goes to criminals.

      We must firmly and efficiently put all illegal immigrants in camps for deportation, once people know they cannot come to this country illegally they will improve their own ones.

  18. Iain Gill
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 9:36 am | Permalink

    It is of course a straightforward lie, just like “down to the tens of thousands” was under Cameron and May who both had ministers out telling big business under Chatham house rules that they had no intention of delivering on this promise at exactly the same time as they were promising the electorate in the most strident terms that they meant it.

  19. Iain Gill
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    If you read Dom Cummings blog over the last few years you know exactly what the plan is, and it is most certainly not immigration reductions.

  20. Polly
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 9:47 am | Permalink

    So do you think I’m right, wrong, or somewhere in the middle.. ?

    Polly

    • Polly
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

      Oh ok then……

      No comment = Right !

      Polly

      • NickC
        Posted November 14, 2019 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

        Polly, You appear well qualified to answer you own questions whatever they are. Toddle off to a small room with a mirror and enjoy yourself.

  21. Kenneth
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 9:57 am | Permalink

    I’m not keen on a points-based system. This would be expensive to run and will always lag the real needs of the economy.

    I much prefer a market-based system where a bond of a few thousand pounds is paid for any non-UK passport holder who comes here.

    If any UK organisation needs to recruit from overseas, whether that is a company, a university or even a farm, they can pay the immigrant’s bond which can be fully or partially refunded if and when the immigrant leaves the UK. Of course, the immigrant could pay the bond themselves.

    For short-stay visitors, a cheap insurance scheme could pay the bond (since it will be refunded on their departure).

    • glen cullen
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

      In a lot of countries you have to have travel health insurance even for a holiday, and to be honest you’d be mad to travel without insurance

      But its okay if you’re going to the UK its all free

  22. Pragmatist
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 10:00 am | Permalink

    Farmers should be encouraged to plant crops in accordance with their own local knowledge over years and generations. You do not plant crops requiring unavailable labour in the locality or that could come from a neighbouring county or for example British students wishing to make a few extra bob to see them through further education.
    Any farmer doing otherwise should consider whether he has the necessary skills and knowledge for his profession and perhaps apply for training in a job he could do.

  23. Simeon
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 10:01 am | Permalink

    Meanwhile, we’ll continue to have a benefits system that disincentivises work, and no means to sensibly fund public services already unable to cope with present demand. This, along with the rest of Conservative policy, is merely a continuation of the direction of travel, commonly referred to as “to hell in a handcart”. What is the point?

    • Andy
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 9:44 pm | Permalink

      In what way does the benefits system disincentivise work? Have you ever tried to live on benefits? You think people do it for fun? Seriously.

      The only people disincentivised to work are pensioners – who get huge handouts just for being old when many could actually be doing something useful.

      • Fred H
        Posted November 15, 2019 at 11:37 am | Permalink

        yawn.

      • Fedupsoutherner
        Posted November 15, 2019 at 11:38 am | Permalink

        OMG Andy, You really need to get out more. I think your posts today as just to gain attention. You obviously don’t get much at home. But then with your attitude to others I am not surprised. Many pensioners are still working. I find the older workmen so much more capable and reliable than any of the youngsters who fail to turn up on time if at all. Many pensioners also do a lot of voluntary work and many of the institutions they support would fail without them. Do keep up with life and stop making ridiculous statements as if you are still in junior school.

      • Edward2
        Posted November 15, 2019 at 11:44 am | Permalink

        One way is the top up process where if your income is low the state gives you extra.
        This incentivises part time work rather than full time work.

      • a-tracy
        Posted November 15, 2019 at 1:08 pm | Permalink

        Andy, one way that benefits disincentives work is child tax credits and working tax credits. A parent only needs to work 16 hours to maximise benefits and earn the equivalent of a full-time wage and added benefits towards their housing costs and other social benefits like free school meals, additional allowances. This parent is a single parent although the partner is often on the scene (but based at their own parent’s paperwork wise – you know this is the case because the female often gets pregnant with her invisible partner with second child extra tax credits). I know people that split up because mother is better off without him at her home.

        Try to get the 16 hour per week job with maximum holidays preferably in a school to match school holidays, if not ask your employer to give you 13 weeks holiday but only pay you for 6 and then benefits increase as pay drops. Just one example.

        My parents don’t get any benefits other than a minute pension they paid national insurance contributions to achieve. In fact if it makes you feel better Dads only been in hospital once in his life because the GP failed to give him a course of antibiotics when eventually admitted even though his records would have shown he hardly ever had any antibiotics in his life and he hadn’t seen a GP for decades.

  24. Iain Gill
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    Cameron was stupid enough to speak openly in India that he wanted much more immigration from India, while telling the voters back home that “down to the tens of thousands” was his genuine plan. Nowadays we can all read the press in India fairly easily on the web. If the press here was not so biased itself towards open doors immigration this could have destroyed Cameron then and there. Its shocking that the political class continually get away with this.

  25. The Prangwizard
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 10:17 am | Permalink

    Welcome overseas university students – why exactly? Is it for their money? Will they then be allowed to simply leave and take their knowledge with them? Fat lot of good that does this country.

    It is essential to ensure anyone coming has a known job to go to, a specific visa and must leave when their visa time expires. There needs to be systems to check if they have left and overstayers must be found, removed and then prohibited from entering afterwards.

    It’s just more electioneering. As we have seen there is little effort to put our people first. Just insult and criminalise us if we object and protest.

    • glen cullen
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

      Universities are private business, they wish to make as much income for there own university…..they’re not really interested in the UK higher education policy….they are all in competition with each other

      I’ve offen argued that tax payers funds shouldn’t be used to educate overseas students

      • tim
        Posted November 14, 2019 at 8:50 pm | Permalink

        glen cullen- Universities are private business, and the people running them pay themselves what ever they want. Eg, Nottingham uni principal £640,000 P/A. When these people retire they get 2/3 final salary for the rest of their lives. There is currently a black hold the size of sub prime for their pension payments. The poor tax payer will have to pay these massive pensions.

  26. beresford
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 10:19 am | Permalink

    As a former union officer I am used to hearing management say that wages should be determined by ‘market forces’. When the market doesn’t suit them, some want to be able to buck the market by bringing in cheap labour from abroad, at the expense of the rest of us in terms of housing, benefits, demand for services etc.. Before they are allowed to do this they should show that they are offering more than the minimum wage and their recruits will not require benefits.

    • Iain Gill
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

      More than that they need to show they are not simply undercutting and displacing locals.

      • glen cullen
        Posted November 14, 2019 at 8:54 pm | Permalink

        Go to any major construction or manufacturing site throughout the UK today and you will found this exact situation. I’ve witness sites with over 75% foreign workers all on min wages and temp causal contracts.

        I had a discussion with the local council who agreed to one project, which had a clause that the companies must employ 10% local to be engaged. I was later informed that the council doesn’t record actual figures after project start and doesn’t have any mechanisms nor powers to inspect or to cancel projects. It’s a tick in box exercise and now endemic in large companies.

        • Iain Gill
          Posted November 15, 2019 at 9:25 am | Permalink

          also happening at the very highly skilled end of the skills spectrum, so being highly skilled is no guarantee that they will not simply displace and undercut locals

          no incentive to hire or train locals now in many lines of work

  27. bigneil(newercomp)
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 10:32 am | Permalink

    Make new rules on people coming here? All they have to do is get in a rubber dinghy and get a few miles from France – then ring for a free “water ferry” to come and fetch them. UK taxpayer funded NHS staff and vehicles will be eagerly waiting for their arrival – while people who actually have paid taxes for decades will just have to accept that they will have to wait.

    • NickC
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

      Bigneil, I heard a farmer with a coastal farm say that he had seen a dinghy full of people land in the middle of the night. It won’t have been the only one. Our borders are completely porous.

  28. Everhopeful
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 10:43 am | Permalink

    And then start training.
    Training…as should have been put in place for at least the past 60 years.
    But a crowded island makes for lower wages?
    Or maybe..a crowded island makes for more consumers?
    Doesn’t matter whether earned or free money is being spent really.
    How long have we been promised less immigration?
    Why do we keep on believing any promises?
    29th March…31st October. Imagine if a toad fell from the lips every time a lie was told!

  29. Sir Joe Soap
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 10:48 am | Permalink

    Except Northern ireland.

    I think we heard something similar from the Conservatives about non-EU migration before the last election and the one before that. The difference now appears to be that EU migrants will have more rights than either non-EU or indeed the indigenous population. I know of no other country where that’s the case.

    • Sir Joe Soap
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 10:53 am | Permalink

      You should be using GB not UK in these statements. I can’t see how you can prevent EU movement to the UK as non-Irish citizens will be able to gain Irish citizenship which then entitles them to live and work in NI.
      A laudable compromise, Johnson’s agreement doesn’t close down the NI issue, which promises to raise its head at ports within the UK instead of on the irish border. So you have the worst of both worlds – having an open border at your national border but a contentious one within the UK.

      • Sir Joe Soap
        Posted November 14, 2019 at 10:57 am | Permalink

        So we end up with literally the devil’s choice- vote for a half way house ceding sovereignty which is the Johnson plan or let in a sovereignty-ceding Marxist by voting BXP where possible. There seems literally no way round this now that the obvious route of WTO rules has been thrown on the bonfire.

        • NickC
          Posted November 14, 2019 at 5:44 pm | Permalink

          Sir Joe, Politicians from either side in the HoC think that the Boris WA or revoking Art50 “solves” the problem. They have no idea. Either option will cause trouble. The only thing that will work long term is full independence.

        • Simeon
          Posted November 14, 2019 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

          To be fair, before Farage committed political suicide by trusting Boris Johnson (a decision he appears to be very publicly regretting almost as soon as he’s made it, but alas, the horse has bolted…), we had a legitimate choice, at least as regards Brexit. Yes, voting Brexit party may have cost the Tories seats, but let’s not be deceived; it would be people voting Tory that would have denied the country Brexit. Now, there genuinely is no choice, although we can always choose not to vote. If enough people exercised their democratic right choosing not to vote, there would then be a compelling reason to conclude that our democracy requires radical change. I would interpret a very low turnout in this upcoming election very positively.

  30. Ian @Barkham
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    The migration issue, is one of those ‘Me2’ syndromes where the so-called PC brigade are trying to clamp down on free thinking and discussion.

    I don’t know anyone that has an issue with someone arriving in the UK to take up employment or further education. However, their are concerns with those we were once permitted to call illegal’s, now just called immigrants like all the others arriving in the UK. These could be refugees, asylum seekers or criminals on the run. But we are not permitted to tell it as it is.

    The point being, those that force their way in are in fact just queue jumping. As such they are depriving those with a genuine need for fear of life etc. gaining access to the UK. The UK then looses its status as a welcoming safe haven.

  31. formula57
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    Referencing the Home Secretary prompts me to offer you some cheer if you will indulge me in going off topic.

    I wrote to her and was becoming worried the shameful designation “correspondence challenged” might apply and then became alarmed that election delays might in due course see me a correspondee of D. Abbott. But no, for I received a reply made on Ms. Patel’s behalf in perfect civil service (we recognize no problem and certainly see no need to change anything) that nonetheless gave me helpful information and advanced my understanding. Government for the people in action!

    (On topic, Ms. Patel’s intent to introduce an Australian-style points-based immigration system may well be appropriate but Australia apparently sees half its “skilled” category are in fact unskilled accompanying dependents, it fails to match immigrant skills to local shortages, and despite seeking those with skills, has nonetheless created a low-paid migrant underclass (many migrants find work below their skill level) and with skilled migrants disproportionately represented amongst the unemployed.)

  32. Jack Falstaff
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 11:55 am | Permalink

    Loathe as I am to compare the UK with other solutions around the world (such as when there is talk of Norway or Canada when the subject of post-Brexit trade arises given our unique situation generally), I would be interested to know what your view is of the Australian “points system” for this particular subject Sir John. Thanking you in advance.

    Reply A points system is fine. It is just a way of assessing eligibility and demand. What matters if the judgement about categories and numbers.

    • Iain Gill
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 3:41 pm | Permalink

      And the judgement has been wrong for years, with circa 65 to 70 percent of the voters wanting significant immigration reductions, and precisely zero of the mainstream political class wanting any reduction at all, there is a massive deficit of democracy as the real people are simply not being represented.

  33. Lifelogic
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 12:08 pm | Permalink

    What Boris should do on the flooding (especially given that an election is on) is to at least promise that something will be done to ensure that flooded properties can be insured in some way. Either provide a satisfactory flood relief schemes (that satisfies the insurers) or provide the insurance directly. So the properties do not become virtually unsellable and people unable to get mortgages on them – as they often do.

    It would not need to cost that much as not that many building flood several time – it might even make a profit – given the margins insurers often make on premiums.

    • Hope
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 3:45 pm | Permalink

      Johnson has agreed in his servitude plan to follow /align the EU environment policy which helps cause flooding by returning flood planes back to natural habitat! We had that debate in 2014 where it took Prince Charles to shame the Tory govt into taking some action, lots of future promises that did not materialise! Again, the Tory govt failing to act on a promise causing misery to hundreds of thousands.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

      Boris says the problems of the NHS are caused by demand! Well yes Boris – if you give something away for nothing you will find quite a lot of demand! Try it with free petrol, housing or electricity. The demand is largely entirely predictable given the population and age profile.

      The NHS can on control demand by delays and rationing so they do as do GPs. They need to charge those who can afford to and encourage people to go private if they can afford to. Simples

      Of course it would be even worse under Corbyn/SNP as all the large tax payers would have left taking the money with them! Also the state sector unions would take over again!

    • Mark
      Posted November 15, 2019 at 1:18 am | Permalink

      He could say that the UK will repeal the EU’s Water Directive inspired legislation and revise the operational attitudes of the Environment Agency that mean that flooding risk is higher than it should be in places like Lincolnshire and the Somerset Levels. In fact, it’s a good test of whether he is serious about Brexit.

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted November 15, 2019 at 11:31 am | Permalink

      LL. Are any of us surprised there is more flooding? The rivers aren’t dredged and the areas that were planted with trees which use water and with landscapes that soaked up water are now concrete due to being built on for homes. The water has nowhere to go.

  34. Lester Beedell
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    The numbers flooding in are making the Country that I grew up in unrecognisable but no one is brave enough to say it and the PC brigade are working overtime and it’s now far too late

    • Andy
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

      You have just said it. Nobody has stopped you saying it.

      You sound a bit silly but then that’s up to you.

      • NickC
        Posted November 15, 2019 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

        Andy, You have no idea. As usual. People attempting to say that England is for the English are squashed, no-platformed, derided, censored, shouted down, spat at, and attacked.

      • Lester Beedell
        Posted November 15, 2019 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

        Andy, trust you to come up with an infantile comment, you never disappoint!

  35. bigneil(newercomp)
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    Off topic.

    I read BJ has offered ( up to) £500 per “eligible” claim for those up around Doncaster who have been flooded. I hope BJ hasn’t forgot to send the EU it’s daily £55million.

    • a-tracy
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

      I thought that’s why we pay for Insurance aren’t Insurance companies settling claims any longer?

      • Fred H
        Posted November 14, 2019 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

        our hot water tank starting leaking late at night. We called a plumber who used a hose etc to empty it. In the morning another plumber replaced it. Both gave me bills. Total several hundred pounds. If I had left the leak it would have gone through the ceiling ruined a newish suite, ruined 1 year old new carpeting etc. Insurance said no chance we will not pay the plumber costs – so no recompense. Asking around informs me they all behave the same. Insurance often = Cheats.

        • a-tracy
          Posted November 15, 2019 at 10:12 am | Permalink

          Terrible story Fred so you’d have been financially better off to leave the leak and let it wreck your home – ridiculous.

          People that help themselves, insure themselves, save, squirrel away, check homes aren’t built on flood plains before they buy them by paying for the checks, you’re on your own.

          • Fred H
            Posted November 15, 2019 at 11:35 am | Permalink

            The second plumber said ‘good luck with the claim for my bill – insurers huh!’ and shrugged.
            I didn’t take much notice.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

      I had a leak and some ceilings fell in last month can I have £500 too please.

      Were these people’s houses not insured?

      • NickC
        Posted November 14, 2019 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

        Lifelogic, £500 for a leak? It used to cost a penny!

        • Lifelogic
          Posted November 15, 2019 at 2:49 pm | Permalink

          More like £5000 alas.

  36. Julian Flood
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

    I’d recommend a target of tens of thousands.

    As I’m unable to find a sarcastic smiley, please imagine one here ().

    JF

  37. lojolondon
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    Dear John, I totally agree with you except for this sentence : “lower paid workers to important areas with low domestic availability of labour.” As long as there is a single British person on the dole, there should be no access to Britain for unskilled people.
    Another important area is healthcare. Britain needs to train and develop our own doctors, nurses and specialists, 100%. It is absolutely immoral to be harvesting the poorest countries in the world and stealing their best healthcare professionals, from where they are expected to deliver services to their home communities. There is no doubt that poor people in poor countries are dying because of this policy, and it must stop as soon as possible.

    • a-tracy
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 2:49 pm | Permalink

      It doesn’t help lojo that it is only the lowest health care assistant pay that is discussed and they are called nurses. Fully qualified nurses start on salaries of £24,214 rising to £30,112 on Band 5. Salaries in London attract a high-cost area supplement. With experience, in positions such as nurse team leader on Band 6, salaries progress to £30,401 to £37,267.

      Often nurses are choosing to work 3 – 12 hour days rather than 5 shorter days then we are told they are too exhausted and working too long hours. If they aren’t capable of working 12 hour days these days must be shortened and spread out through the week. More men need attracting into the profession and pay then typically rises.

  38. Anonymous
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    Blah blah blah.

  39. Mark
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

    In view of events in Hong Kong, the government should consider suspending all visas for mainland Chinese students, who only come here to learn STEM subjects that they can use to out-compete us.

    • Fred H
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

      you don’t mention spying and collecting info on intellectual property rights. And please dont protest ‘no they dont – YES THEY DO’

  40. Andrea Polden
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    We’ve definitely got to have a generous scheme for agricultural workers, otherwise we are going to be very short of fresh food. Already this year much fruit has been wasted (and I thought we were supposed to be cutting down on food waste) because there have not been enough pickers from Eastern Europe to cope. Apples, for example, have been left to rot on trees or on the ground. What is the sense of that?

    • a-tracy
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

      Andrea, we need to find work for asylum seekers, they need to be able to work in the agricultural sector and temporary accommodation should be provided near this work we seem to have a constant flow of people seeking asylum in the UK especially Kent. Where has the fruit been wasted?

      • Andrea Polden
        Posted November 14, 2019 at 7:45 pm | Permalink

        I don’t know exactly but for the last week of October, Farming Today on BBC Radio 4 fruit from trees, and there were several mentions over the week of this problem.

        • NickC
          Posted November 15, 2019 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

          Andrea, Do you still believe the BBC?

    • Simeon
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

      We have millions of people in this country out of work claiming benefits. I don’t blame them. They’re making a perfectly rational choice between; free money and free time to do with as they please; or slightly more money, much more responsibility, and having to work full time. It’s the benefits system that’s the problem (which has nothing to do with the EU, other than that they insist, not unreasonably, that we are as generous to EU citizens as we are to our own). If we had a sensible benefits system that was a safety net rather than facilitated a lifestyle, we wouldn’t be reliant on immigrant labour. You can imagine the huge benefits to the country in a variety of directions.

      • Fred H
        Posted November 15, 2019 at 5:08 pm | Permalink

        Simeon ……OMG that is far too sensible to ever work. I can hear ‘Yes Minister’ dismissing it in a nanosecond.

    • The Prangwizard
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 7:43 pm | Permalink

      Can you explain how other nations – Holland for example – manage without all these troubles you imagine and exaggerate?

      I fear you live in a world of fantasy. By the way, there are two apple trees by the side of a short section of road leading to my nearest small town. The apples fall. Do you want to come along and pick them so they don’t go to ‘waste’. Apples are abundant in this country.

    • libertarian
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 8:05 pm | Permalink

      Andrea Polden

      Fruit was NOT left to rot due to staff shortages

      Facts ( ONS 2017 )

      There were 346,000 workers working in all sectors of agriculture in UK of which 18,000 were EU nationals

      As with most low grade, unskilled work the cost of employment ( wages plus taxes, workplace pensions and other regulatory costs) means that automation is now well under way in UK picking and packing

      Harvesting robots for apples, pears and other Top Fruits have been available for a long time. Now Soft fruit robots for strawberries, raspberries etc are also available capable of picking 25,000 berries per day

    • Mark
      Posted November 15, 2019 at 1:22 am | Permalink

      I know that Heineken have substantially reduced their purchases of cider apples, ending the contracts of a number of farmers. Cider demand has been affected by higher duties.

  41. Mark B
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 2:23 pm | Permalink

    Good afternoon.

    The government could have cut non-EU immigration anytime it wanted, but didn’t. Why ?

    The Conservative Party wish to reduce the minimum wage to £30k for those applying for work visas. Why ?

    We have been promised this before. It was never delivered then. Why ?

    Your PM has stated that he wants to give illegal immigrants (criminals) the right to remain in the UK. This would allow them to bring in their families, something our government would be powerless to prevent. Why ?

    These are all questions that need answering. But I’d doubt they will be. Just more promises to be broken, as always.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 3:56 pm | Permalink

      Someone earning just £30K with a say a wife and a couple of children and is surely going to be paying far less in taxes/NI than they get back in immediate benefits – so surely they would be a large net liability to the state. Even before their needs for housing and share of roads, police, defence, social services. healthcare ….

      Taxes at the highest level for 40+ years and yet public service dire and declining – as we see with the NHS figures out today.

      • Fedupsoutherner
        Posted November 15, 2019 at 11:23 am | Permalink

        LL. As we see with the NHS figures out today.

        Ive just had personal experience of long waiting times in A&E. I was taken in with chest pains last night and spent 7 hours on a hard chair in a cold waiting area. I didn’t make a fuss as the doctors and the nurses were all rushed off their feet but I did notice how many drunks, drug addicts and violent people they had to deal with. No, it’s not nice having to wait so long to see someone but the staff don’t need to be verbally and physically abused.

        • a-tracy
          Posted November 15, 2019 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

          sorry to read you were poorly last night, hope you’re feeling better.

          Seven hours is an awful length of time, perhaps not making a fuss is the issue.

          • Fedupsoutherner
            Posted November 15, 2019 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

            Tx A-track. Yes better today. Long wait but seen by hard working and courteous staff.

        • Lifelogic
          Posted November 16, 2019 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

          Best wishes to you – yes is they charged everyone then the the drunks and drug addicts would have less money to spend on drugs and alcohol next day. Yet another benefit of charging and then reducing taxes in proportion.

          With of course some safety net for the few who really cannot afford to pay.

      • Mike Wilson
        Posted November 19, 2019 at 12:47 am | Permalink

        You regularly claim taxes are the highest for 40 or 50 years. For someone on average wages, how do you work that out.

        Let us all also worship at the altar of black crap. It is so much better than green crap. Let’s get that oil and coal out of the ground and burn it.

    • Iago
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

      A sickening list.

  42. Ditto
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

    Did we British get our dark humour from the Romans or what?

  43. James Snell
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

    Two things!

    The door swings both ways- if we restrict EU citizens coming here the same obstacles will be put in place for UK citizens and UK business looking for opportunities in EU countries. There is absolutely no no doubt about this the feeling through EU countries is so bad now.

    And don’t worry about agricultural workers or nurses wanting to come here, they are not going to go to to the trouble of all of that form filling for visas etc as I am sure they will have other places to go where they will feel much more welcome.

    • Fred H
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

      such as?

    • libertarian
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 7:55 pm | Permalink

      James Snell

      Welcome to the World

      The Vast majority of nurses from overseas come from Malaysia, India and Pakistan so not really sure what you think will stop them.

      Businesses looking for opportunities overseas DO NOT count as immigration. I can set up in business virtually anywhere in the world.

      “There is absolutely no no doubt about this the feeling through EU countries is so bad now.”

      Total nonsense , you dont have a shred of evidence to back up that very silly claim

      Where exactly are they going to go? As most of the EU countries have massive unemployment and very few basic workers rights and more than 10 dont even have a minimum wage

      Why are remainers always so ignorant of how the world actually works

    • margaret howard
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

      James Snell

      “And don’t worry about agricultural workers or nurses wanting to come here, they are not going to go to to the trouble…”

      According to my daughter in law who is head of psychiatry at one of the major London hospitals, EU nurses and medical staff are leaving in droves and impossible to replace by similarly qualified people from outside the EU.

      • Fred H
        Posted November 15, 2019 at 11:32 am | Permalink

        MH – – An NHS Project Fear eh? ‘We don’t believe you’.
        They came here because there was no work at home – plenty of well paid jobs here. Thousands rushing back to unemployment eh?

      • a-tracy
        Posted November 15, 2019 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

        Nearly 50% of British children are going to University and not enough trained in nursing or doctoring what a terrible indictment of ill-thought-through education, education, education with irrelevant qualifications at the end of the course and thousands unable to pay the cost back of their degrees with other jobs paying over £25,000 unable to recruit sufficient trained staff – stinks to me.

        In 2016 when the vote leave result came through immediate training places should have opened up they’d be three years into their courses by now and nurses graduated.

  44. Lifelogic
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 4:09 pm | Permalink

    Complete scientific tosh on The World at One today (as usual, but even more so today). The idea that the way to save Venice or Doncaster or anywhere from flooding is by cutting some of the UK’s 2% of World human CO2 contributions is scientifically insane. Where do the BBC get all these compete alarmist idiots from and why? These floods show the “fingerprints” of Climate Change and other drivel.

    One interviewer’s questioning even suggested that she did not even seem to realise the flooding of Venice was tidal (so it goes in and out twice a day dear). Though only a small Mediterranean or Adriatic one.

    • NickC
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 5:56 pm | Permalink

      Lifelogic, I waded through the floods in Piazza San Marco in Venice in the 1970s. The floods back then were caused by global cooling and the imminence of the next ice age.

      • Fred H
        Posted November 15, 2019 at 9:36 am | Permalink

        so did we -walked on the ‘duck-boards’ – caused by high tides……

        • Fedupsoutherner
          Posted November 16, 2019 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

          So did we…. November is the time of year they always get floods. They need to start thinking about whether they are encouraging too many tourists and gigantic cruise liners which help to destroy the basin and river beds.

    • Mark
      Posted November 15, 2019 at 1:28 am | Permalink

      The way to save Venice would have been to have completed the MOSE tidal barrages at the entrances to the lagoon on time (originally slated for 2014, now – maybe 2022), rather than a typical Italian saga of funds disappearing and poor construction standards with substandard materials, meaning much of it has to be redone. They are supposed to cope with a 3 metre tide surge.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted November 15, 2019 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

        Indeed. Corruption is a terrible thing but we have quite a lot of it in the UK too. Plus all the essentially corrupt lobbying and submission of politicians and bureaucrats by many vested interests.

  45. John Brown
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 5:07 pm | Permalink

    Labour’s policy of unlimited freedom of movement, extended to the whole world, means there is no way they can plan for our housing, schooling, NHS and infrastructure (energy, water etc.) needs as they will have no idea how many people will be resident in the country.

    Note also that they intend to extend voting rights in all elections to all residents whatever their nationality, despite our country having incomplete records of who is actually resident in the country and consequently opening up our elections to anyone in the world who has the use of a UK address.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted November 14, 2019 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

      Indeed Labour seem to have one new, ever more insane, policy every single day. All to be paid for by tax increases on a few rich people who will already have all left the country!

      Corbyn was even talking about “the excellent quality of his shadow Cabinet” the other day! The man is on another planet – Is there even one of them who is remotely sensible and can speak in full meaningful sentences?

    • steve
      Posted November 15, 2019 at 12:13 am | Permalink

      John Brown

      “….means there is no way they [Labour] can plan for our housing, schooling, NHS and infrastructure”

      Because Labour doesn’t want to, basically. Labour’s is the politics of envy, consequently and as we have seen before, Labour cannot run a country or it’s economy. So instead their mission is to bugger things up just out of spite.

  46. Mick
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1204426/election-2019-andrew-neil-latest-news-labour-party-laura-pidcock-freedom-movement-brexit
    And this is typical of labour trying every trick in the book of how not to answer a direct question which might get in the way of them being elected, watched a programme called Smuggled we’re people were trying to smuggle people into our country without being stopped, what a joke our immigration officers are they were all successful in getting into our country apart from one , it’s about time I.D cards were introduced into this country as a start to stop illegals , and when illegals are caught no putting up in accommodation just ship them straight back across the sea

  47. a-tracy
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 6:24 pm | Permalink

    Watching BBCnews I hear Lowestoft needs lots of migrants, they can’t fill vacancies we’re told. Why don’t we move homeless people and asylum seekers there, accommodate them and provide work – link up services.

  48. Monkey weather
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

    I’ve seen photos of the snow in Wales as a “catastrophe” . Holy Mackerel Batman, that is a light touch of frost in Russia and Finland. Do superior beings live in those places who seem to keep their cars, lorries and bus services going with a smile and one vest extra below their cardigans minus coats?

    • Mitchel
      Posted November 15, 2019 at 11:30 am | Permalink

      If you watch Russians taking their Orthodox Epiphany dips in holes cut in the frozen lakes in January(including last year Mr Putin,surrounded by icon-carrying clerics and swirls of burning incense) you might be tempted to think so!

  49. margaret
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 7:57 pm | Permalink

    Opening up migration to the rest of the world is fatuous.Taking the idea from the general to the particular , would all those who believe this is a good thing accept more and more migrants into their own homes , share their resources ,pay extra tax for them, take a back seat and be by passed whilst work was found for thee influx of migrants etc ? The responsibility of the government is to reflect public ideals .. but put those ideals to the test individually and I would safely bet that they would say it is not my problem,yet they mouth how others should do this and that.

  50. Andy
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 9:37 pm | Permalink

    Put it the other way. The Conservatives are stealing from you your right to free movement.

    Your right to live bureaucracy free in 31 other countries has gone,

    Your right to work bureaucracy free has been removed.

    Your fight to retire to Spain or France, regardless of your wealth, has been taken away,

    A right used by wealthy Tories like Lord Lawson and Lord Lilley has been stolen from your children and grandchildren.

    A right shared by people across the continent – wrenched from Britons by the Little Englanders.

    Reply This is complete nonsense. People will still travel and move to EU countries once we have left

    • Fred H
      Posted November 15, 2019 at 9:29 am | Permalink

      Andy – I hope ‘ people across the continent’ AND all others will be stopped from free movement into our country.
      We never had ‘free’ movement prior to the EU – you may not remember being a kid in my terms, a passport was required – thats all. I imagine you have one now?
      What a fuss, what a drama…..all over nothing.

    • dixie
      Posted November 15, 2019 at 12:59 pm | Permalink

      I was made a citizen of the EU without my say, choice or permission. I had and have no wish to settle in another European country, I did not seek such a ‘right’ and see no rational reason why I should be expected to fund rich people like you Andy to be able to live where you like.

      I worked across Europe and always had to show my passport, if the EU imposes a visa requirement I have no issue, provided the UK reciprocates.

      Why are you so selfish?

    • NickC
      Posted November 15, 2019 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

      Andy, None of the things you list are true. Making bureaucracy EU empire wide does not mean there is no bureaucracy. And Britons travelled to and in Europe, even behind the iron curtain, before 1973. Your lack of knowledge of anything that happened before you were 20 is extraordinary in its ignorance.

      • Fred H
        Posted November 15, 2019 at 2:54 pm | Permalink

        I wish I could take the fools who dismiss the Marxist /Communist threat so lightly could travel back with me in time to Berlin, Warsaw, Prague etc. The dismal lifestyle, the grey gloom everywhere, the smiles when food that we would consider throwing away became available. The tedious functional concrete housing blocks with lifts never mended. The black market of illicit imported boot loads of wine brought in from the eastern vineyards, a serious risk for those enabling some meagre comfort to the people. The steps taken to protect things like western cars from theft – the ‘local’ mafia.

        • NickC
          Posted November 15, 2019 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

          FredH, Indeed. Someone I know very well travelled behind the iron curtain in the 1960s and let me know the reality. Although in the 1970s we were trying hard to emulate them with our own shortages.

          • Fred H
            Posted November 15, 2019 at 8:51 pm | Permalink

            NickC – -and certain unions and ‘movements’ did a fair job of destroying any productivity gains we had been making. .. Where would we be today without the balls of Thatcher? I imagine many of our momentum chaps daydream of a time machine to go back and ensure she was never born.

    • libertarian
      Posted November 15, 2019 at 8:35 pm | Permalink

      Andy

      Hilarious nonsense , you’ve never been to Europe have you.

      As members of the EU in MOST EU countries there is a lot of bureaucracy to go through in order to live and work there

      You need to get a job, prove that you can rent or buy a home, take out medical insurance and register with the authorities . In Germany you have to apply for a residents permit via Einwohnermeldeamt, Kreisverwaltungsreferat (KVR), Bürgerbüro or Bürgeramt.

      You can retire anywhere you want virtually . You can work anywhere normally with the correct paperwork

      Youve no idea about anything have you Andy, you live in a fantasy world

    • APL
      Posted November 19, 2019 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

      Andy: “A right used by wealthy Tories like Lord Lawson and Lord Lilley has been stolen from your children and grandchildren.”

      One might imagine there hadn’t been a tourist industry in Spain before that country joined the EU in 1986.

      Yet there I was in a well built up Spanish resort in 1982. Which is odd, because the high-rise holiday accommodation had been built a good long time before I got there.

      These Euro Maniacs really don’t know anything.

  51. Phil
    Posted November 14, 2019 at 11:02 pm | Permalink

    Sorry, John. This is another hiding to nothing for the Conservatives. You’re just importing more future Labour voters at massive public expense. This is why it’s so difficult for Conservatives to get elected in London now.

    We have far too many immigrants already and shouldn’t be accepting any more “refugees”. How about being fair to the British people for a change?

    • Ken moore
      Posted November 16, 2019 at 1:34 am | Permalink

      ‘Fairness’ only seems to work one way .I think they use the word alot to conceall just how unfair the system really is.

  52. Javelin
    Posted November 15, 2019 at 2:57 am | Permalink

    Low tax paying migrants dilute the public services.

    Tax is at record levels.

    There has been no austerity only dilution.

    • Ken Moore
      Posted November 15, 2019 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

      Migrants pay low tax and impose huge up front costs in terms of infra-structure spending. Unfortunately we are now too poor as a nation to even afford to pay interest on money never mind expand our services to accommodate numbers they were never designed to serve. Remember the 1990’s as the golden era before mass immigration.

  53. John S
    Posted November 15, 2019 at 10:04 am | Permalink

    As more than half of immigrants come from outside the EU, I think control of our borders is a hollow promise. xxxx

    • glen cullen
      Posted November 15, 2019 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

      You are correct our immigration and border security policy is a joke

      The political parties have either forgot or are ignoring the public out-cry at recent referendum and EU elections

  54. Ken Moore
    Posted November 15, 2019 at 4:19 pm | Permalink

    We have heard all of this before but a ‘sustainable’ immigration system remains a pipe dream. Dr Redwood fails to mention that part of immigration that is controllable from non EU countries has risen sharply.

    Where are the great visionaries and brave thinkers that put reason before career ?
    Powell spoke of the dangers of communalism, of the sense of hopelessness silently shared by so many …of a nation stripped of it’s identity. etc ed. They didn’t listen then and they are still not listening.

    What more prompting to the politicians need before they get it. A and E departments that kill old people waiting on trolleys, widespread flooding (before the planned millions of tons of extra concrete are laid for the millions of extra homes needed). Not enough GP’s, homes, dentists, etc. All the time they pretend that the situation can be managed by spending X billions more of printed money that is going to be mythically earned by a future multi cultural rainbow de-industrialised society..

    A city the size of Birmingham is being added to the Uk every 5 years yet the main political parties have decided not to have a serious discussion because they do not wish to cause ‘offence’. Well I am offended that all we get are warm words and virtue signalling when what we need is firm action.

    The really funny thing is they are really concerned by global warming but have no concerns about adding millions more water plundering, oil consuming, humans to our communities. ..

  55. Yossarion
    Posted November 15, 2019 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

    John the BBC said only yesterday that the population of England and Wales had gone up by 3,500,000 since 2010, do you really think the English will ever believe the Tory party ever again on Immigration, guess We will have to keep on building on the flood plains and its associated consequences . No doubt Scotland will have not taken its fair share as usual, last time I checked its population had only increases by 300,000 since 1975.

    • Fred H
      Posted November 15, 2019 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

      Yossa – – when they are independent expect an awful lot more to climb the border fence and go south.

  56. Edwardm
    Posted November 21, 2019 at 11:36 am | Permalink

    On immigration one is left with the conclusion that all major parties put the interests of foreigners ahead of British people. Clearly the Lib Dems and Labour are far worse than the Conservatives.
    A blind eye is turned to illegal immigrants.
    The Conservatives want to allow in people to high paid jobs – but I have written before that they should not do so when there are well qualified people made redundant who cannot get jobs. Why can’t experienced but redundant British people be offered reasonably paid jobs first ?
    In my case a vote for any of the main parties is a vote for my (and others I know – in electronics/software) continued unemployment.

    We are an over crowded island with a housing shortage caused by mass immigration, and consequent high cost of housing whether renting or for new purchasers. Yes, a lot of new build is underway – but we end up with high cost high density housing covering miles more of our countryside and consequent traffic overloading our roads. Where are we to grow food and trees ?
    We may want to have better qualified young people and more well paid jobs – but what is the point if their reasonable aspirations cannot be met – it is very depressing for them (studied hard, worked hard – all money gone on housing and student debt) – and so undermines the conservative dream – and to some could make socialism and its mistaken policies seem superficially attractive.

    There should be no further net immigration – and certainly no immigration whilst we have a housing shortage – British people on housing waiting lists should have priority over incomers – not the other way round.

    Sorry to have to state the obvious.

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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