Lack of trust stifles debate

Listening to the interviews on the main media is a frustrating experience. The interviewers assume all politicians are telling fibs, so they keep asking the same questions over and over again. The politicians expecting to be on trial usually play safe and stick to a few sound bites their party wants to get across. No-one is allowed to explain the complexity or nuances of many topics, because to do so would be seen as a weakness, or undermining the clarity of the approved soundbite.

The introduction of so called professional fact checkers is particularly corrosive. These people are often said to be experts. They are also people with their own political views, party preferences and biases, but we are not told about those. They may be an expert in their chosen field, but the point at issue may be one where different experts have different views. They are allowed to present as if their expert view is the only one possible. An expert economist for example is allowed to assert a future growth rate, without having to admit his or her attitude to future political events affecting the growth rate, and without having to explain that many other economists have different forecasts.

It is true that some parties and individuals in election debate wander well from the truth, whilst others believe in their view of the truth knowing they will have to deliver on it if elected. This has always been true, and used to be dealt with by the free flow of debate between the parties. When Labour lie that the Conservatives are going to privatise the NHS, past experience of Conservative governments and united voices saying No we will not should be sufficient to persuade many voters that this is simply a false accusation. I’m not expecting a BBC Fact checker to clear up that one.

Many of the issues in dispute are matters of judgement more than matters of fact. Many of them relate to the future, so they cannot be a matter of proven fact. Listening to a debate recently  about the NHS and trade deals showed what a stupid position the media have got us into. There was no background understanding that the fundamental principle of free at the point of use with health care delivered on the basis of need is shared territory between all the main parties. Nor was there much permitted understanding that for profit companies supply drugs, cleaning, catering and a range of services where that makes sense, and did so under Labour governments. No one is proposing harming the NHS in anyway by a trade deal so why dont the fact checkers guide us on that one?

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222 Comments

  1. Peter Wood
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 5:25 am | Permalink

    Sir John,

    You try to present a scholarly analysis of the state of electioneering by the two main parties, which obviously cannot stand up to scrutiny. The attempts to mislead (polite) by both parties has done you, the political class, yet more harm to your reputation. eg, 50,000 MORE nurses from Mr. Johnson, free university for all English students, by Mr. Corbyn, to quote only two mammoth porkies. Its just farcical.

    Lets face it, we have a choice between Billy Bunter Boris and Worzel Gummidge. You may think I am disrespectful of the two main party leaders, but surely, the lies we are being told on a daily basis is far worse.

    Reply The Conservatives will train and recruit more nurses as it has done in recent years.

    • Simeon
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 7:08 am | Permalink

      Personally, I don’t believe your party will privatise the NHS. Instead, if elected, you will pursue the far more damaging policy of pouring ever more obscene sums of taxpayer’s money into an unreformed, grossly inefficient service that yields outcomes poorer than other systems that cost less.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 7:54 am | Permalink

      John’s rather pious position is pushing it, I think.

      Even allowing for metaphor, shouldn’t Johnson’s claim that he would rather be “dead in a ditch” than not leave the European Union at the end of October mean that he at least should have resigned?

      There are other examples of bad faith simply too numerous to list.

      Please don’t blame anyone other than your own party for the electorate’s or for anyone else’s lack of trust in you, therefore.

      • a-tracy
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 12:38 pm | Permalink

        So, Martin, do you think Boris knew when he said that quote that Hilary Benn and his act would be passed by our parliamentarians?

      • rose
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 1:36 pm | Permalink

        The Traitor’s Parliament forced him to break his promise in the hope he would resign. It is to his credit that he didn’t.

      • Edward2
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

        Boris didn’t have any choice in the matter.
        Parliament, which you keep telling us is supreme, refused to pass the necessary legislation.
        He was frustrated by others.
        No reason to resign at all.
        The voters will make their judgement very shortly.

      • Hope
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

        Ann Widdecombe MEP made it clear she was offered a bribe by your party to defect. Your party denied it. I believe Ann Widdecombe. JR, who do you think is Lying?

        Four Brexit party members defected today. What were they offered by your party and by whom?

        Guido running a story about the Anti democratic party’s affiliate group who are putting out nasty leaflets and posters, in constituencies like yours to make nasty smears against Tory candidates, to circumvent election spending rules. Do you think this bodes well for the anti Democratic Party which already has form for misleading/ false leaflets?

        Like Obama, Shaultz and other foreign leaders being asked by your govt to make scary comments about leaving the EU!

        How does this instil trust in politics?

        • Lifelogic
          Posted December 7, 2019 at 11:39 am | Permalink

          I too would trust Ann Widdecombe implicitly on this. She even had the wisdom and bravery to be one of a tiny handful who voted against the insane “virtue signalling” of Miliband’s Climate Change Act. This has done huge harm to the economy and nothing for the environment either. And this despite her having had no science training. Well done Ann!

          • Lifelogic
            Posted December 8, 2019 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

            Even surviving Oxford PPE!

      • steve
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

        MiC

        “shouldn’t Johnson’s claim that he would rather be “dead in a ditch” than not leave the European Union at the end of October mean that he at least should have resigned?”

        Taken literally, it means he should have died in a ditch.

        “Please don’t blame anyone other than your own party for the electorate’s or for anyone else’s lack of trust in you, therefore.”

        ….very well said.

        • a-tracy
          Posted December 6, 2019 at 9:13 am | Permalink

          steve, oh most of us do blame the Tory turncoats who stood on a 2017 ticket ‘no deal is better than a bad deal’ and betrayed the people that elected them.

          • Lifelogic
            Posted December 7, 2019 at 11:47 am | Permalink

            Many stood on one basis and then kicked the voters in the teeth after their election. Ten of them even voted for the treacherous Benn surrender bill. Which ensured the Boris deal is far worse than it could have been. Worse still some of these appalling traitors have even been allowed to stand again!

    • Mark B
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:06 am | Permalink

      Reply to reply

      This is point that I believe Peter was making , Sir John. You claim the Conservative Party has created more nurses yet, after some nearly 10 years, you seem to have discovered that you need to create even more ! That means you did not create enough in the beginning or, you are just saying things that you think the electorate want to hear to get votes. You fail to realise that we see through all this and yet, you carry on ?

      Reply Demand for NHS services is rising so we need to keep on recruiting more.

      • Simeon
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

        Reply to reply

        If government was on top of the Health brief then the recruitment of new nurses would not be newsworthy but simply a matter of course, the government having made sensible plans for future demand.

        But more basic than this is that 50,000 NEW nurses is a lie. It’s not unusual for parties to make dubious policy announcements. What is unusual is for such announcements to be thouroughly discredited, but for parties to continue parrotting the same lie. The contempt for the electorate is incredible.

        But as I have said before, the people of this country, having accepted the principle of democracy (or tyranny by a ‘majority), will deserve whoever we elect. We will have made our choice, and if we didn’t like any of the choices on offer, tough, because that’s a consequence of choosing not to demand better. So perhaps the contempt with which our political class teaches is richly deserved…

      • a-tracy
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

        John, for every extra 400,000 immigrants adding to the population each year, the majority of whom are living where? England? How many extra nurses and Doctors does that equate to? How many extra teachers. How many do we have for every 1000 people? I don’t understand why teaching numbers weren’t increased year on year as nearly half a million more people were coming in? If the 1 in 4 foreign nurses are taken in relation to the extra numbers we’re importing then we will stand still won’t we?

      • Peter Wood
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

        Actually I was referring to the misleading claim of 50,000 MORE nurses, when in fact it is only 31,000 NEW nurses, +/-, with the hope of retaining the balance from expected leavers. So the lie is, it is not 50K MORE nurses. This is the kind of insulting deception that we are expected to swallow. It is grossly condescending and wastes time better used for constructive debate.

        • Mark B
          Posted December 6, 2019 at 7:17 am | Permalink

          Thank you, Peter.

        • DaveK
          Posted December 6, 2019 at 8:42 am | Permalink

          As your own post points out, it is not a lie. It may be creative description of what they want to achieve, however that does not make it a lie. As usual politicians rely on computer modelling which showed the PVR rate and the number of losses the nursing profession is expected to have over 5 years. The “hope” is that with recruitment and improvements in working conditions that more nurses will stay. The end result is that there may be 50,000 more nurses that the model projections. It is a sad indictment of our media that they cannot understand basic concepts or even what a gross/net figure is.

      • Timaction
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

        Demand is rising because after 10 failed years you have not reduced immigration which impacts all public services, health provision and they need housing from our green belt that in turn impacts the local weather! How does that mass migration help our CO2 footprint?
        Only politicos can’t understand the problem of their own making.

      • zorro
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 3:29 pm | Permalink

        Reply to reply – we could do something about the demand to stop the inevitability of the Ponzi scheme.

        zorro

      • Hope
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

        No JR. you are deliberately failing to address why the demand is increasing at such a rate. Mark and many others raised this many times before. It is because your party and govt lied over cutting immigration.

        Your party and govt could not keep its word and promise over the past three elections to cut immigration to tens of thousands! Recent figures showed this was possible, three quarters of immigrants came from outside the EU. Immigration is so high no matter how many houses are built it will not keep pace, same for public services!

        Is your answer truthful, deliberately misleading or a lie, based on stated and published Tory policies and manifestos?

      • Mark B
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:50 pm | Permalink

        Reply to reply

        Why is there more demand ? Could not have anything to do with more people entering the country despite Tory promises at every election to slow the numbers ?

    • Mike Wilson
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:40 am | Permalink

      What about the bursary?

    • margaret howard
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:43 am | Permalink

      Reply to reply

      Of what caliber though? Most of the highly trained European ones have left or are leaving.

      • a-tracy
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 12:43 pm | Permalink

        Are you doubting our own university training methods margaret?

      • Fred H
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 12:45 pm | Permalink

        mh- – MOST ! evidence dear lady, EVIDENCE.

      • a-tracy
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

        You don’t know that margaret!
        Even fact check report they don’t know accurate figures because of people over and understating their home status.
        “The number of NHS staff working in hospitals and community health services in England who report that they are from the rest of the EU rose by around 4,400 between June 2016 (when the EU referendum was held) and June 2018. But these figures can’t tell us for certain what the actual increase in the number of staff from the EU is.

        That’s because there are some staff in the NHS whose nationality we don’t know (around 71,000 in June 2018)—so the data we have is missing around 6% of the workforce at the time.”

        One alternative is to look at the percentage of staff who report they are from the rest of the EU, based on all staff whose nationality is known. Staff from the rest of the EU made up 5.6% of NHS staff (whose nationality is known) working in hospitals and community health services in England in June 2018. That’s pretty much the same as the level in June 2016 (5.5%).

      • Edward2
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 3:16 pm | Permalink

        full fact.org on their website have an article on EU staff in the NHS
        They say “around 4,400 more EU nationals worked for the NHS in England in June 2018 compared to June 2016″
        The H of C Library says ” there were 58,698 EU staff in June 2016 and in March 2019 there were 65,073.

      • steve
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

        MH

        What utter nonsense.

      • Anonymous
        Posted December 6, 2019 at 6:14 am | Permalink

        Relax.

        We’ve had 20 years of 50% going to university.

        We’ve recently had record numbers of firsts.

        Our young people are clearly brilliant and the exodus of educated foreigners easily compensated for.

    • turboterrier
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:53 am | Permalink

      Reply to reply

      A lot of people feel that Borisis is just going to create a situation of complete breakdown and goes out with no deal. I do hope so. Already it seems as clear as day that the EU have built up their agenda to give us three fifths of NAF all as the price for any trade deal.

      • turboterrier
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:56 am | Permalink

        Sorry Sir John sent twice in error

      • Simeon
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

        People who think that BJ is secretly a true believer in a real Brexit are in for a nasty surprise. The only thing he believes in is keeping his party together so that he can hold on to power. A clean and proper Brexit would rend the Tories asunder. It’s not happening!

        • NickC
          Posted December 6, 2019 at 1:25 am | Permalink

          Simeon, I regret to say from past experience you are probably right. And then politicians wonder why they’re not trusted.

    • turboterrier
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 9:05 am | Permalink

      Reply to reply

      It is not the recruiting that is the problem that is the solution. The problem is stopping them leaving the profession once qualified. As I said to my local Tory MP at the hastings “does any of your experienced dedicated civil servants (his words) actually carry out any survey directly with the people who leave and ask the basic question why? Instead of sitting in Whitehall they should be out there walking the talk and get on the same level face to face and not rely on pollsters and the like. When your face to face as you well know there is no hiding place.

      • rose
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

        A man came from Cameroon via France with a wife and nine children. He was handsomely housed, having turned down several good detached houses with gardens, and said he intended to train as a nurse. Even if he did, what was to stop him giving up and just living on benefits?

    • Posted December 5, 2019 at 9:42 am | Permalink

      The Conservatives say they will continue to ‘steal’ nurses from their poor countries, where they are much needed, with lure of higher salaries and citizenship of the U.K. which is seen as a meal ticket for life.

      This is one of the many reasons Conservatives are finding it so difficult to vote for Boris dreadful manifesto.

      • Dennis
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

        Lynn A. – Quite right. Was there no one in the last 10 years to point out we are not training nurses? Who is/was responsible?

    • Fred H
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 9:44 am | Permalink

      reply to reply……but Sir John do you really think Boris’ inclusion of 19,000 (of 50,000 more) nurses he states can be retained that might otherwise leave, is an honest realistic pledge? How can it be achieved? Double nurses pay? As Corbyn would have it – a 4 day week, when in fact many nursing shifts is exactly that – 4 shifts a week.

      • Know-Dice
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

        Fred,

        You will probably find that those are 12 hour shifts with night duty from time to time…

        • Fred H
          Posted December 5, 2019 at 11:30 pm | Permalink

          agreed…..I know one who does 3 and = a week’s pay.

      • a-tracy
        Posted December 6, 2019 at 9:17 am | Permalink

        The nurses I know do 3 – 12 hour shifts.

        • hefner
          Posted December 6, 2019 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

          The standard full-time week for NHS staff is 37.5 hours. So three twelve-hour shifts (each increased by one half an hour for night-work) is a full-time job.
          So what is the problem? Please consider the conditions in some wards before judging those people from your armchair or your computer swivel chair.

    • Stred
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 10:26 am | Permalink

      The Chancellor of the Exchequer was on the radio this morning claiming that ‘We have balanced the books’. This is at a time when his plan is to borrow more and increase the deficit. His previous career was in banking before the crisis. Does balancing the books have a different meaning in banking parlance? They are allowed to create money to lend so perhaps he is counting the money that he is planning to create with the help of the magic tree. How is Deutchebank these days?

      • Fred H
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

        Balanced in what sense? Has the national debt been cleared? Has all national Interest been paid? Has total taxation now equalled national spending?

      • Stred
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

        Another Conservative MP on Politics lunchtime today claimed that we are reducing the debt. Should all MPs have to sit some sort of basic economics and environmental engineering test?

      • Turboterrier
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

        Stred
        How is Deutchebank these days?

        Don’t even go there

        • margaret howard
          Posted December 6, 2019 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

          It would help to learn to spell its name properly. It’s Deutsche Bank.

      • Oh yes
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:43 pm | Permalink

        “Does balancing the books have a different meaning in banking parlance?”
        Yes.I’m afraid so. Welcome to Alice in Wonderland

    • Peter
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 4:23 pm | Permalink

      Yes they all lie and we know they lie. Their reputations are in shreds after three and a bit years with May at the helm and now Johnson.

      Johnson has a policy of damage limitation. Pick interviews that suit as and when is helpful.

      With so-called big hitter Andrew Marr he adopted the ‘rope-a-dope’ tactic. He lay back on the ropes and let Marr try to land his big punches.

      These were easily blocked with
      * trusted slogans such as ‘Get Brexit Done’,
      * avoidance of the question,
      * riffing on a theme of Johnson’s choice,
      * teasing the interview with smarm about being happy to be interviewed by any Andrew of the BBC’s choosing
      and
      * running down the clock between rounds/answers.

      At the end of the bout an exhausted and frustrated Marr was clearly a beaten man.

      No direct lies were necessary in this contest.

  2. Mark B
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 5:34 am | Permalink

    Good morning.

    Thank you for finally putting up my post from yesterday. I am sure many do not want to read about the EU’s, Common Defence Union, but hey ?

    The Media has become just another useful tool for political party and Establishment propaganda. It does not seek to understand and reveal the truth of a matter rather than to indoctrinate the populace. Government use ‘experts’ to tell them what they want to hear and forward policies that otherwise would not be popular. Forward among these is the Climate Change SCAM, Leaving the EU and numerous sin taxes (eg sugar, salt and plastic bags).

    All those who complain about Labour using the NHS in there black propaganda initiative against them have no right to do so. There is plenty of evidence that Labour have been privatising the NHS in their time in office but no political capital was ever made of it.

    Those who complain about so called experts had ample opportunity to bring in legislation to curb the media in this abuse of peoples trust. But as I say, they may not have wished to for their own selfish reasons.

    In summary. The media continue to pretend to tell the truth, and we the people, pretend to believe them. 😉

    • Cheshire Girl
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 7:29 am | Permalink

      ‘Pretend to believe them’! The Media are the last people I would believe!

      Channel 4 is particularly bad in this respect, so much so, that I have to switch off Channel 4 News most nights. Any person who tries to explain things, is constantly harangued and interrupted , so that the Presenter can put his/her own point of view.
      Their smug self importance is a real turn off for me.

      • Telegrapher
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:29 pm | Permalink

        They are the Guardians.

    • Turboterrier
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

      Mark B
      The media continue to pretend to tell the truth, and we the people, pretend to believe them. 😉

      No Mark the problem is the majority believe it. They have taken the fly on the water, hook, line, sinker and boat!!!!

      Just look around in such areas as Climate Change, Renewable energy, Renewable subsidies , Obesity, heart and diabetes problems linked to low fat diets? Who is telling the truth?

  3. Lifelogic
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 5:58 am | Permalink

    Well Corbyn/McDonnell keep claiming that all their mad spending spree, and let’s be Venezuela agenda, will be funded by people earning more than about £85,000. Then we have a transport secretary who claims 53% of our energy comes from wind and solar (when the correct figure is under 3% in the UK and less that 0.5% worldwide) and he even claims that electric cars are “zero emission”.

    So are these people A. very dim and ignorant indeed or B. just blatantly lying to con people into voting for them?

    Excellent piece by Allister Heath in the Telegraph today – The hypocrisy of Remainer fanatics flocking to Corbyn is jaw-dropping. Europhiles who vote for Labour’s neo-Marxist agenda can no longer claim to hold liberal values

    Also a good letter from a doctor saying how we are expensively training doctors many of who then leave the county to earn double or more overseas and then we import other doctors (many of whom Would not make the cut to work in say Australia, New Zealand, Canada or the US) to replace them. One of very many reasons the NHS has such poor health outcomes.

  4. Ian Wragg
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 6:20 am | Permalink

    A good example is Boris saying that he will get Brexit done by the end of January when Barnier is saying that the talks will go on for years..
    We all know Johnson is lying so why give him a good majority.

    Reply The PM has rightly promised we will exit the Implementation period at the end of next year.

    • Simeon
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 7:03 am | Permalink

      Reply to reply

      BJ’s promises are meaningless for obvious reasons. However, I do believe his aspiration is to exit the IP at the end of next year, which he can achieve by so closely aligning the UK with the EU that any changes to trade are so minor that they can be agreed in a matter of months, before the summer deadline.

      Sir John, it is clear that you are hoping against hope that somehow we will accidentally stumble into a clean break Brexit. But I cannot see how this position has any credibility whatsoever, for the way to achieve a clean break is to bin the WA. But that isn’t happening. Or perhaps you can explain why I’m wrong?

    • Dave Andrews
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 7:13 am | Permalink

      What will the “Implementation period” implement that couldn’t have been implemented over the past 3 years, ready for a simple exit at the end of January?

      • glen cullen
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 1:52 pm | Permalink

        We are paying £39bn+ for the WA….and after the PD phase (even more transition) of 12mths we will have 1. FTA or 2. further transition or 3. WTO

        This is madness the £39bn shouldn’t be paid till we know the end point

      • Turboterrier
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 5:57 pm | Permalink

        Dave Andrews

        Exactly cocking right. Enough to make your blood boil. Thank God for G&T. Their incompetence Knows no bounds.

    • Ian @Barkham
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 7:38 am | Permalink

      How is that a Lie. Barnier is not the EU, he does what his master tell him to. He was never elected, he is not subject to democratic scrutiny.

      He is a French Man with a grudge, in this case because someone (OK a country) dares to suggest his master rule has no real place in a free democratic world.

      With a good majority Boris could just walk and we could all get on with things that matter.

      • Turboterrier
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

        I@B
        With a good majority Boris could just walk and we could all get on with things that matter.

        Absolutely correct

      • NickC
        Posted December 6, 2019 at 1:35 am | Permalink

        I@B, “With a good majority Boris could just walk and we could all get on with things that matter.”

        Theoretically he could, but I strongly suspect he won’t – not least because the Tory party won’t let him.

    • Johnny Dubb
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:04 am | Permalink

      Come on Sir John. You’re stretching loyalty too far with that one! Your new intake of Remain Tory boys and girls will keep us in.
      Are you saying that they will vote WTO when negotiations fail in 12 months?

    • Mark B
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:08 am | Permalink

      Reply to reply

      Implementation Period ? But we voted to Leave, not hang around at indeterminate exit lounge.

      • Fred H
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

        The Exit lounge has an in door, but no Exit! Hotel California.

      • Hope
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

        There is no implementation period! There is nothing to implement. That phrase is dishonest in itself because all MPs know this to be the case!

    • Thomas
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:14 am | Permalink

      Reply to Reply

      Cameron promised he would trigger Article 50 the day after a Leave vote,
      May promised we would leave on 29th March,
      Johnson promised we would leave on 31st October.

      So much for Tory leaders’ promises.

    • Ian Wragg
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:27 am | Permalink

      But we know from experience that, lying in front of the bulldozers, die in a ditch and 100% leaving 31st October, all lies. Why should we believe that at the end of the implementation period we will leave.
      BTW just what are we implementing during this time when the EU says everything stays as is.

    • Hope
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:53 am | Permalink

      There is nothing to implement, so are you misleading, not explaining or continuing a lie?

      Johnson stated he was not extending before as he would rather die in a ditch, he said the UK wouldmleave do or,die by 31/10/2019. We were told by your MPs there was nothing remainers could do about it.

      It strikes me you are deflecting the lies told by your party and govts rather than apologisemor suggest a way forward. We had empty promises to clean up parliament after the expense scandal.

      You might recall you supported the Bloomberg speech, Lancaster speech- both of which were to deceive the people. Cameron lied he had reformed the EU, Mayhab lied 108 times- many answers to your own party who distrusted her- to leave the EU by 29/03/2019. Dishonest Kitkat tapes. Why has Mayhab not been investigated or impeached for lying.

      Then we have the uncosted zero carbon by 2050 not based on real experts etc only a fools gold to get votes at huge cost to the taxpayer.

      The well of trust has gone dry.

      • Hope
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:56 am | Permalink

        The period in time is to discuss trade and future relationship which the two years was for under article 50!

    • bigneil(newercomp)
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 9:36 am | Permalink

      Reply to reply – so ANOTHER year of £55m a day to the EU? Surprised we can’t hear them laughing their heads off half way up the country.

    • Posted December 5, 2019 at 9:43 am | Permalink

      Nobody can believe anything a dead man in a ditch says.

    • Posted December 5, 2019 at 9:46 am | Permalink

      Boris is not perfect – who is? – but he is all we have got.

      • Mark B
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:54 pm | Permalink

        Deliberately some might argue 😉

      • NickC
        Posted December 6, 2019 at 1:38 am | Permalink

        Mike S, We voted to Leave, not to swallow the lies from a Remain Parliament (which will still be Remain after this election).

    • Fred H
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 9:46 am | Permalink

      His promises so far have failed, what will change?

    • Posted December 5, 2019 at 10:13 am | Permalink

      Yes, Mr Wragg. We all know we don’t need a trade deal to leave the EU. All this patronising blather is to make us take our eye off the ball.

      • Turboterrier
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

        L Jones
        All this patronising blather is to make us take our eye off the ball.

        It looks like its working from where I’am. I thought that out meant out?
        Damn, seems that I am wrong again.

    • Polly
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 10:33 am | Permalink

      Didn’t Prime Minister Johnson promise to exit the EU on October 31 and didn’t Prime Minister May promise to exit the EU on various dates which came and went without any exiting.. ?

      Polly

      • rose
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

        In both cases, the Traitors’ Parliament, with the help of a bent Speaker, seized control of the Government business and handed it to a hard left opposition, in order to pass an illegitimate directive forcing the PM to extend. The spectre of the Supreme Court, which appears to be an arm of the ECJ, was helpfully dangled in front of the PM.

        Did you anticipate that a Parliament would act thus to force a PM to break her/his word? In the former case the PM seems to have been content to go along with it, but not the second.

      • glen cullen
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

        brexit means brexit…..I seem to remember someone saying that

    • Andy
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 11:07 am | Permalink

      We won’t. Johnson will win the election and then extend. Even though he has said he won’t.

      • Fred H
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

        Andy – correct. You should be happy – everything points to a lingering death of actually leaving.

      • Posted December 5, 2019 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

        He will not win the election.

      • steve
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 7:12 pm | Permalink

        Andy

        I must admit I did wonder that myself.

        All I can say is he’d better not extend. Unless he wants a riot, a very big riot.

        • Martin in Cardiff
          Posted December 6, 2019 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

          It was threatened for the last time too.

          Wouldn’t happen.

          Leave voters expect to see it on television, though.

    • Mitchel
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 11:10 am | Permalink

      There was an illuminating exchange re an article in the DT yesterday by Jeremy Warner (“Trade wars are killing globalisation,and post-Brexit prospects with it”)and a correspondent :

      XXXX : “The Tories are globalist.The EU is globalist.There will be no Brexit.Tory BRINO is a Trojan horse for re-election.Once in power again tory BRINO will be regressed back into remain.”

      J Warner:”Spot on! But only because BJ doesn’t want an economic crisis on his hands in his first few years of office.So,my prediction is that the manifesto commitment not to extend the transition will be breached and that we’ll end up with something quite similar to May’s future relationship proposal.”

      Many on here,I’m sure,will agree.

    • Timaction
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

      Ha ha ha! A Tory leader promise, do or die or 108 times we’re leaving on 31.3.19!!! Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. In my Constituency I only have legacies to vote for and a pro EU independent. So should I vote for the best of the awful options, so the Tory’s can say I voted for them? What a state of a Country that is in desperate need of change in our voting system, the abolition of the Lords and radical reform of the news media. When is the awful BBC being put out as a non tax service so we can choose if we want it or not!

    • zorro
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

      JR, please keep up 😉 or quite possibly at any time after 30/01 or before 31/12 according to latest utterances if they are to be believed…..

      zorro

  5. Lifelogic
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 6:20 am | Permalink

    Evan Davis, on the Today programme yesterday, did some calculations on the insane Labour’s economic plans. He calculated that the top 5% (those people earning just over £80k) would have to pay an additional average £133,000 in taxes PA each. But of course many of the sensible ones would already have left and would work less, so even worse than that in reality! Leaving some with about negative £100k to live on!

    Three cheers for Evan and the BBC (finally) doing some sums and pointing out the total insanity of Labour’s magic money tree economics Economics.

    Asked about this Mc Donnall came out with complete drivel about insulating all homes (something that above a certain level often produce a very poor investment return especially on retrofit) also taxes on private schools (that would clearly cost more than they would raise and destroy many good schools in the process). Is Mc Donnall totally innumerate & deluded, etc ed and blatantly lying to try to con voters?

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 6:47 am | Permalink

      “would already have left or would choose to work less” – I meant.

    • Anonymous
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 7:09 am | Permalink

      With students given two votes Corbyn could get in.

      The Left think that cheating for their cause is for the greater good and always do it.

      • Fred H
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 12:59 pm | Permalink

        At University towns.

        • Anonymous
          Posted December 6, 2019 at 6:09 am | Permalink

          And home towns

      • Lifelogic
        Posted December 6, 2019 at 8:12 pm | Permalink

        Indeed and they do not need to vote in both just the one that is more marginal so their vote counts. It counts for more if you get two options and can choose a marginal one.

    • Johnny Dubb
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:05 am | Permalink

      yes

    • Dennis
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

      Labour keeps repeating, they must just pay ‘a little bit’ more. To me that would mean perhaps 50p or £1 a week or maybe a month. ‘a little bit more’ is never explained.

      They are shysters.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted December 6, 2019 at 8:16 pm | Permalink

        They are indeed they usually say “ask the rich to pay a little more”. They are not being “asked” it is demanded with the treat of jail. If you rob the rich they have less to invest, less to pay workers ….. so all suffer.

    • NickC
      Posted December 6, 2019 at 2:00 am | Permalink

      Lifelogic, Then there’s little Jo Swinson saying that by 2030 80% of our electricity will be renewables if the LDs got their hands on power.

      So 80% is about 37GW. The majority would have to be offshore wind, which has a utilisation factor of one third. So we would have to build and install about 22,000 windmills of 5MW each, or 6 a day, every day for 10 years. That requires about 85 teams and about 4 specialist ships to each team, working non-stop just to install. That would be nearer 300 teams due to weather, shifts, holidays, etc. It’s just not going to happen.

      It’s as bonkers as this government’s rule that all cars sold must be electric by 2040 – they are just not building enough power stations to charge battery cars.

      Then the politicians wonder why we don’t trust them.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted December 6, 2019 at 8:18 pm | Permalink

        Indeed logic, sums and the laws of physics are not the strong point on the green/libdim loons.

  6. Shirley
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 6:26 am | Permalink

    Lack of trust is to be expected when politicians and the MSM deliberately lie to the electorate, as has been happening over the past decades.

    There are always opposing views, but as you say, the experts that forecast the desired outcome are the only ones that get any publicity.

    The pre-referendum Project Fear was the biggest lie of all, but those same incompetent ‘experts’ are still hailed as the Messiah, even though virtually every forecast has been wrong, ie. the Euro and the ERM as well as Project Fear. Why? It’s because they fit the pro-EU mould, isn’t it, and the ‘establishment’ is still pro-EU. It keeps the masses under the thumb by frightening many into submission.

    • turboterrier
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:41 am | Permalink

      Shirley

      +1

    • Hope
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 9:00 am | Permalink

      Govt deliberately lie to get what they want. Iraq war people hundreds of thousands killed and maimed anyone held to account like Blaire, Straw, Campbell etc? Or an establishment cover up?

      Pentagon papers anyone?

      • Dennis
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

        Hope – plus the Skripal cover up.

    • Andy
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 11:10 am | Permalink

      Actually many of the predictions which you call ‘Project Fear’ have actually come true.
      Not all of them, but many. And yet you continue to dismiss expertise and evidence.

      • Fred H
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 12:59 pm | Permalink

        which?

      • Posted December 5, 2019 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

        None is the truth. Not a single one.

        • Lifelogic
          Posted December 6, 2019 at 8:18 pm | Permalink

          Indeed none of them.

      • zorro
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

        Which ones?

        zorro

      • Edward2
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 6:16 pm | Permalink

        Come on then Andy tell us exactly which ones.
        Dont be shy.
        I know you love facts.

      • NickC
        Posted December 6, 2019 at 2:04 am | Permalink

        Andy, It is you that dismisses expertise and evidence – the evidence of 165 states on the planet which are not in the EU and don’t crash and burn because of it.

  7. Richard1
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 6:43 am | Permalink

    The BBC’s ‘fact checkers’ are an absurdity. Over the past three years they have been deployed mostly to try to negate points made by politicians putting forward views which the BBC don’t agree with. A particularly egregious example I recall was Peter Lilley talking about trade to an interviewer and then immediately being contradicted by a ‘fact checker’ with no right of reply.

    The most barefaced lie of this campaign is surely Corbyn’s shameful claim that cancer patients and expectant mothers will be handed a bill for treatment if the Tories win – “in five figures” in the case of cancer patients. There is not the slightest evidence for this, and it is clearly lies based on all experience of Conservative policy and current stated policy. How come the fact checkers haven’t picked it up?

    • a-tracy
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

      The biggest service that was privatised in the National Health Service was dentistry – this was implemented by LABOUR. 2008 “Labour has kicked NHS dentistry in the teeth with its botched shake-up of the contract system. Now dentists are quitting in their droves”

      Why the hell aren’t the Tories taking this back to Corbyn to McDonnel they were in the Labour government at the time.

  8. Fedupsoutherner
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 6:48 am | Permalink

    An excellent post John. I am fed up hearing from these so called experts. In particular those on the economy, climate change and energy. They all come out with the same old biased group think that most of us can pick to pieces using common sense.

    I have to say that I was disappointed in Boris at the Nato summit when asked about Mr Trump. There was total disrespect for the US president and considering it is the USA that picks up the biggest tab for Nato a bit more respect was due. Boris was his usual blustering self doing nothing to promote our corner. Joining in with the other schoolboys in the room led by Macron and Trudeau was not a very good image showing no statesmanship. No wonder the Tories are slipping in the polls. As usual the standard of reporting from the BBC was terrible falling over themselves to say nothing decent about Trump and his wife. Disgusting behaviour all round shown to our greatest allies.

    • a-tracy
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

      Fus – I read this was misreported and BJ wasn’t joining in the typical bully boy tactics of popular groups to someone not exactly like them (these man children also did the same to Theresa May in the EU). I also read the piece about Princess Anne snubbing Trump and the Queen reprimanding her was just bunkum too, she was just shrugging and saying “its just me” –

  9. Bob Dixon
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 6:49 am | Permalink

    If I understand any thing about this General Election ,we must have left the EU before any of the crackpot promises can be put through Parliament.

  10. Ian @Barkham
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 7:31 am | Permalink

    Clearly we are stuck between ‘soundbite’, ‘soundbite’ and more ‘soundbites’ from all quarters. There is a reluctance to flesh out detail, as understandably it would then be counted with another ‘soundbite’

    The detail, the qualifications and real meanings now have no place in getting messages out, because the Media doesn’t work that way – they assume they are limited to the 143 characters of social media. A ‘soundbite’ doesn’t have to true it is just the gambit to pull the viewer in, which is qualified usually differently in the detail. It falls down in its honesty, because the viewers scans the soundbite and goes no further.

    So-called TV debates do not set out to debate or inform about issues they are just vanity platforms for the participants and primarily the ego of the interviewer. An real way to understand that is as a chat show host, ‘Parkinson’ guided the real story from those being interviewed. Then came ‘Ross’ as a chat show host it was about him and him alone, so-called guests were just the foil for his own ego.

    As it has been shown anyone wishing to be elected submitting them self to so-called scrutiny (who’s scrutiny, how are they experts) at one media outlet or another is just there as a foil for that outlet to pat themselves on the back and stroke their own egos.

    The trouble come elections is that just 5% at anyone time are the target, they switch sides and elections get lost. For most they stick to their core beliefs in the way they want society to proceed.

  11. Roy Grainger
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 7:33 am | Permalink

    “The interviewers assume all politicians are telling fibs, so they keep asking the same questions over and over again.”

    No, that’s not why they keep asking the same questions over and over again, it’s because politicians of all parties have been schooled not to answer the question they are being asked but rather the question they want to be asked.

    The LibDems are terrible liars though, they’ve sent me a fraudulent chart to persuade me that the Conservatives can’t win here and only they can beat Labour – despite the fact their vote here was just 5% in the last election. Their claim is based on a projection of the EU referendum vote omitting all Brexit Party voters. How they get away with such fraudulent advertising I don’t know (well … I do know of course).

  12. Posted December 5, 2019 at 7:34 am | Permalink

    I couldn’t stand paying the BBC its extravagant licence fee any more, just to listen to a lot of left wing propaganda. Got rid of the TV and bought a Netflix subscription.

    Now I can watch what I want, when I want, where I want (on my iPad), for a lot less than the BBC licence fee. I can listen to the radio for current affairs (Fox is quite amusing).

    Freedom of choice. If you don’t like “public service” TV then leave it, don’t fund it.

  13. Richard1
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 7:51 am | Permalink

    I just caught an amusing discussion in sterling’s rise on the BBC. It’s the removal of the threat of hard Brexit, it’s investors up-weighting sterling assets, it’s…errr..anything other than the real reason which can’t be mentioned: it looks like the Tories will win the election and the sword of Damocles which has been hanging over the U.K. for the last few years in the form of Corbyn and the commies and their ludicrous programme for national bankruptcy and poverty, is about to be lifted!

  14. margaret
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:06 am | Permalink

    You are here also telling of the NHS over the last decade or so. People have been put into positions because they have just got an Oxford graduate degree and according to management their view must be more important than those experiencing a situation for decades of years .They cause havoc .
    I have just attended an award CCG presentation which seemed a good idea that Drs and Nurse and other clinicians should be rewarded for their difficult and hard work. In fact I found it highly offensive when the awards went to business and management, data control who were self adulating and waiting times and lack of funds for the clinical staff is becoming worse and worse. The impacted of management is for management themselves.
    Apparently the same sort of voting will be happening next year when councils also join .Areas are already being targeted .. will these new starlets affect voting?

  15. Leaver
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:26 am | Permalink

    There are problems with fact-checking and our reliance on experts, I agree.

    However, as the alternative is to not check facts and rely on the uninformed, I’m not sure we have much of an alternative.

  16. Lifelogic
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:34 am | Permalink

    I read in the Spectator that we subsidise the (generally richer) train travellers to the tune of about 10p per passenger mile. A total of £9 billion PA. Meanwhile car drivers (often rather poorer people) are probably taxed at rather over 10p per mile in vehicle taxes, motorist mugging taxes, duty on fuel, VAT etc.

    Why do we do this? Why if, as is often wrongly claimed, trains are so energy efficient do they need this huge subsidy at all? Trains, when you taking into account the extra journey bits at each end (often double in a taxi or family car), the often indirect routes, the track, ticketing, staff and stations are not in fact more energy efficient than cars most of the time. So where is the logic?

    • a-tracy
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

      The giveaway crew in Labour are offering their London base predominantly subsidised rail fares at the cost to the rest of us, in our case without a local rail service to our nearest cities!! Because it’s Corbyn’s preferred way to get around.

    • Al
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

      I suspect whoever is setting the subsidies is judging by London where public transport (trains and buses) are commonly in use by the lower income travellers due to things like parking charges, congestion charges, lack of household parking spaces, and crime. Once you get outside the capital, cars are a lot more commonly used due to the generally poor state of public transport – although after Southern Rail I’m not sure London is much better.

      I have read the article, and it does mention that most delays are caused by Network Rail, the publicly owned part of the network. Rather than subsidising transport however, opening new stations and better routes may be a more productive use of the funds, since it allows the railways to start supporting themselves through more travellers, station stores, rents, etc.

      • Fred H
        Posted December 6, 2019 at 10:37 am | Permalink

        I had to laugh at the assertion of lower income travellers……
        I have seen Sir John on South West Trains (as it was then) – but not since SWR. How else to get to Westminster, the City, etc from Berkshire?

    • Anonymous
      Posted December 6, 2019 at 6:05 am | Permalink

      Well

      Tickets are hideously expensive on trains (despite the subsidy) yet they are so full during peaks that it’s often difficult to get a seat.

      There must be some reason people choose them. Perhaps the hideous traffic jams when they all decide to try the car instead and put additional pressure on the roads.

  17. Mike Wilson
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:35 am | Permalink

    What do you have to say about the unredacted trade document Corbyn was brandishing?

    • Mark
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

      He seems to have difficulty reading what it actually said.

  18. Everhopeful
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:44 am | Permalink

    Who shut down debate?
    Who allowed WORDS to assume power well beyond their meaning?
    Who imposed POLITICAL CORRECTNESS on the country?
    Certainly not those who have advised the govt against such a draconian method of control.
    Shut down debate and thus get no debate.
    Ha! Not even to say the things the politicians need and want to say.
    They should have spoken out loudly against it.
    Cowardice is a very dangerous trait.

    • steve
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 7:56 pm | Permalink

      Everhopeful

      “Who imposed POLITICAL CORRECTNESS on the country?”

      Tony Blair.

      • Mitchel
        Posted December 6, 2019 at 11:01 am | Permalink

        Tony Blair’s great hero was Trotsky.

  19. Newmania
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:49 am | Permalink

    It is not true that the truth has to be delivered on having been elected . All that is required is to continue to obscure the truth by , let us say , allowing borrowing to grow and debauching monetary Policy .
    One the perception of cause and effect has been muddied then the semi skilled politician can simply recast the narrative and leave the problem s for the the next lot.
    The loss of trust in political statements has many causes but the tip into chaos accelerated during the Brexit referendum when Street politics entered the main stream in a way we have not previously experienced in this country .
    What has bitterly disappointed me has been the lack of heroes to defend the values that served us so well . That, and the the audible scuttle of rats as the old ship went down
    Good Morning Sir John…enjoying your cheese?

    • Anonymous
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

      Street politics.

      WTF is that ?

      • hefner
        Posted December 6, 2019 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

        If you have to ask, you are clearly out of tune with the rest of the band. Go back in front of the telly.

  20. Kevin
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:49 am | Permalink

    A related problem is the questions that simply do not get asked.
    To those party leaders who say this election is about asking in what kind of society do we want to live, I would ask: do you want to live in a society that fails to grant asylum to Asia Bibi?
    To those who want to “Stop Brexit”, I would ask: if you win in your constituency, why should you be allowed to take up a seat in the legislature when there are likely to be many in this country who want to “Stop You”?
    And to those who want to #GetBrexitDone, I would ask: how are you going to do that by adopting a deferential or even submissive position towards the EU in all three branches of government, judicial (Arts. 160 and 174, WA), legislative (Arts. 4 and 127), and executive (Art. 129(6), on foreign policy)?

  21. Oggy
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:49 am | Permalink

    These debates are a waste of time and are just another USA style import, consequently I have no interest in them or watch them. No amount of media debates or electioneering will persuade me to vote for a party I would never vote for anyway ie Labour or the Lib Dem’s. especially given their stance on Brexit. Who would vote for a party whose manifesto is to ignore the electorate.

  22. Everhopeful
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 8:53 am | Permalink

    Apparently NATO was the brain child of the Labour Party in 1948.
    Well…there’s a thing! ( If true).

    • steve
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 7:55 pm | Permalink

      Everhopeful

      Ah yes but you’d be talking of what was the real Labour party, not the trash of today. Totally different thing.

      • Fred H
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 11:25 pm | Permalink

        Steve – – John Smith must be restless in his grave.

  23. Posted December 5, 2019 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    All of them are telling lies John.

    Fixed exchange rate, gold standard lies as if we are going to be using the Euro after brexit. IT’S and the OBR the worse culprits of the lot.

    I hope you have a word with the BOE after we leave.

    The Ways and Means Account is just an infinite overdraft with the Central Bank, and it grows over time to balance the net-savings of the non-government sector just as the Gilt stock does now.

    HM Treasury simply doesn’t issue any Gilts any more. Any funding of private pensions in payment should be done by offering annuities at National Savings, which would also have the neat side effect of ‘confiscating’ net savings and making the deficit go down.

    It’s irrelevant what interest BoE charges on the ‘Ways and Means’ account since any profit the BoE makes from it goes back to HM treasury anyway. So it can 50% if that gives the necessary level of satisfaction to mainstream economists.

    What you have is a standard intra-group loan account between a principal entity (HM Treasury) and its wholly-owned subsidiary. Normally those sort of loans are interest free for the fairly obvious reason that interest charging is utterly pointless, and they are perpetual for the same reason. Rolling over is totally pointless.

    Any term money can then be issued to the commercial banks directly by the Bank of England – up to three month Sterling bills.

    The interest rate to the banks from the Bank of England is a matter of the ‘capital development of the economy’. Almost certainly it would be ZIRP.

    If you are a member of a pension scheme then the savings of the current generation, plus the interest on Gilts and any income from the other assets owed pay the pensions of the current generation of pensioners. They are all, in effect, private taxation schemes that circulate money around the system.

    You’ll note that when there was a threat of people failing to save in pensions, the government introduced compulsory retirement saving – which is of course a privatised hypothecated tax.

    So in essence rather than the assets of a pension scheme being used to purchase Gilts, the assets would be used to purchase an annuity from the government dedicated to an individual. The result is that rather than the private pension receiving Gilt income from the state, to then pass onto the pensioner, the state would cut out the middleman (and their cut) and pay the pensioner directly as an addition to the state pension.

    There’s a whole private pension industry out there literally doing absolutely nothing of any real value. They can’t provide a guaranteed income in retirement without state backing in the form of Gilts. So what is exactly the point of having them ?

    Competition to see who can rip you off the most ? That is what competition has become in this country.

    We need a competition authority with real teeth after brexit.

  24. a-tracy
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    I have a lot of respect for experts, specialists in fields of medicine we trust with our lives.

    ‘Expert economists’

    • a-tracy
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 9:30 am | Permalink

      Were the people making decisions at the RBS expert economists when they purchased ABN Ambro without due diligence? What about the people at Lloyds who made bad purchasing decisions with its rescue of HBOS in the heat of the financial crisis. were they, economic experts? What about the civil servants and politicians who made the decision to allow a flexing of the rules to allow Lloyds to rescue HBOS were they expert economists?

      We trust these people with our private pension savings because we don’t have taxpayer secured final salary public sector pensions and we repeatedly see them decimated by decisions made by expert economists and economists in governments coming up with wheezes to use OUR money for political ends.

    • agricola
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 3:52 pm | Permalink

      Many years ago one of my friends became fairly rich, which you can translate as a few million. Her bank woke up to this and invited her to HQ to meet their head advisor on matters financial. She being a shrewd canny lass asked said advisor where he had parked his Roller. The inference being, if you are a financial expert why arn’t you rich. He didn’t have a Roller or anything better than a Cortina so the conversation ended. On her own judgement she acquired half the high street in her local small town, end of story. Caveat emptor, whatever experts are selling.

      • Fred H
        Posted December 6, 2019 at 10:32 am | Permalink

        and are the row of shops now charities, £1 shops, empty or at best coffee shops?

  25. Bob
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 9:22 am | Permalink

    The general lack of professionalism in the MSM is plain to see.
    Andrew Neil is the only British TV interviewer worth his pay.
    We need a British equivalent to Rebel News.

    • steve
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

      Bob

      “Andrew Neil is the only British TV interviewer worth his pay.”

      I don’t like his accent, or his attitude.

      • Fedupsoutherner
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 9:29 pm | Permalink

        Steve After Andrew Neil’s interview with Farage tonight he went on to do great damage to the Conservative party with his slagging off of Boris and his refusal to go on his show.. Great Andrew, thanks for nothing.

        • hefner
          Posted December 6, 2019 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

          Ah, I was waiting for such a comment: poor you, I really commiserate, the good Andrew Neill, the only not-left wing interviewer has betrayed you as he dared ask Mr Johnson to spend half an hour being grilled by him.
          Don’t you know, he is doing his job as a journalist.

          What a … what’s the word, oh yes, what a snowflake you are.

    • Ian @Barkham
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 9:48 pm | Permalink

      Just because Andrew Neil says so doesn’t make it true. He serves no purpose in the need for decency or honesty in politics his aim is to undermine the whole system at the behest of his bosses.

      It is hard to see nowadays if it is our politics that are in the gutter or it is the MsM that is keeping them there.

      The MsM undermines democracy, when it should be strengthening it

  26. Denis Cooper
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 9:28 am | Permalink

    Interesting snippet on page 27 of CityAM today:

    https://www.cityam.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/CITYAM-2019-12-05.pdf

    “JAPAN’s upper house ratified a trade deal with the US yesterday just nine months after negotiations began … ”

    Well, it’s only a “mini-deal”, but it’s possible that such a deal could yield a large chunk of whatever limited economic benefits might be available, compared to say continuing to trade on WTO terms, and having done that basic and easy deal speedily various other elements and refinements could be added later at a more leisurely pace.

    It doesn’t necessarily have to take as long as the EU takes with its trade deals.

    • rose
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

      I think Japanese negotiators are formidable.

  27. Simeon
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 9:28 am | Permalink

    “No one is allowed to explain the complexity or nuances of many topics, because to do so would be seen as a weakness, or undermining the clarity of the approved soundbite.”

    The media in this country are a blight on our political discourse. Agreed. Of course, so too are our political class, of which you are a representative, if an atypical one. This is obvious to anyone paying attention, and so already known to the great majority of contributors here.

    But of more interest is what you say above, and which I have quoted. Are we to infer that you would be only too happy to explain the details of your party’s Brexit policy, but you are not allowed to do so? The campaign starts here; Free the Wokingham One!

  28. Iain Gill
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 9:29 am | Permalink

    You should go on the “New Culture Forum I So What You’re Saying Is” YouTube Channel run by Peter Whittle.

    Or dare I say it the Joe Rogan experience YouTube channel, although you would need to travel to US to do that.

    Such outlets are exploring the stuff the main stream media fails to engage with.

    Or indeed start your own YouTube channel.

    • rose
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

      What a good idea.

      • rose
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

        Peter Whittle never interrupts.

  29. bigneil(newercomp)
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 9:34 am | Permalink

    If the public don’t trust politicians it is the politician’s fault. After decades of consistent manifesto pledges and promises – which all turned out to be lies – Leopards and spots spring to mind.

  30. Lifelogic
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 9:39 am | Permalink

    So Clarkson wants Greta to go back to school. The trouble is school is very often where they get this alarmist climate drivel and duff science from. There and from some Cambridge English Graduate and other dopes at the BBC, the Guardian, inter governmental propaganda groups and many charities and university research groups on the make.

    It seems that London Bridge terrorist was upgraded to a ‘high risk’ category A prisoner after threats to staff. A high risk in prison but fine to release into the community with a tag on and to attend conferences!

    • Bob
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

      “A high risk in prison but fine to release into the community with a tag on and to attend conferences!”

      This is the direction of travel if you continue to elect the legacy parties.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

      Yes, the truth can be very alarming.

      • NickC
        Posted December 6, 2019 at 2:10 am | Permalink

        Martin, How would you know?

        • Fred H
          Posted December 6, 2019 at 10:29 am | Permalink

          ha ha.

      • Anonymous
        Posted December 6, 2019 at 5:55 am | Permalink

        Cut yourself to zero emissions today then !

        If you wait for the government to do it to you in 20 years then clearly you are not very alarmed yourself.

  31. Posted December 5, 2019 at 9:44 am | Permalink

    I listened to the Chancellor being interviewed by Sarah Montague this morning. I really wanted to know what he was planning and what his ideas on taxation, the arrangements with Europe next year and the real chance he has of being able to put it into practice.

    No hope! what I got was a political hand-out which I cold have written myself and constant, rude interruptions from a woman whom I can only call supremely arrogant and ill-informed.

    On LBC, Iain Dale is polite, well informed and he is an expert at pushing the right question at the right time. It is utterly illuminating. John McDonnell, who comes over in the rest of the media as a rather narrow minded bully, was charming, witty and actually amusing too. Even very left wing politicians show themselves up in a very flattering light. I learn something every time I turn on.

  32. Dennisa
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 9:49 am | Permalink

    One of the main experts trotted out is Paul Johnson of the IFS. He is a former civil servant and was deputy head of the Government Economic Service between 2004 and 2007. Reporters hang on his every word.

    He is also a member of the Climate Change Committee, which is recommending such enormously expensive, wasteful and unworkable measures to transform our energy economy in line with the globally viral New Green Deal, that you wonder how he can have any credibility when commenting on the party manifesto of any party.

    There is no climate crisis, but there will be an energy crisis if someone doesn’t shout “stop” to all the green nonsense.

    UK annual emissions are 1.1% of global total. China is 28% and growing. Asia is 48% and growing, with increasing use of coal. Temperatures are not rising out of control. If it is 1.1 degrees C warmer, (so precise) than before 1850, we should be grateful, it was pretty grim for a lot of the time, during the Little Ice Age. Things have been returning to the more acceptable temperatures that prevailed a thousand years ago, before CO2 was discovered to be a cash cow.

    The current UN circus in Madrid is just touting for money, lots of it, to throw at yet more unreliable and environmentally damaging renewables. They have been after $100 billion a year by 2020 for the last ten years but it hasn’t been forthcoming. Now they need to ramp up the rhetoric, which they have been doing since Paris in 2015.

    Climate models are simulations, projections, not predictions, yet these days they are presented as facts and politicians are more prepared to jump to the tune of a manipulated Swedish schoolgirl than listen to real science from scientists who disagree with the UN.

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 1:32 pm | Permalink

      @Dennisa. Brilliant post. I can remember going to Disney Land in Florida 30 years ago and listening to a film which I have since found out had a lot of Al Gores influence in it and we were all told we had 10 years to save the world. I am sure (sone people ed) are much more wealthy than he was then along with many film stars and so called charities who are milking this scam for all its worth and we are the ones paying. It will only be the poor who will be having to cut back on everything. The rich will carry on with their lifestyles as per normal.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 3:07 pm | Permalink

      Exactly right. The crisis is one made by the mad let’s have an expensive and intermittent energy policy and other such green crap insanities.

      As Jeremy Clarkson says send the deluded Greta Thunberg back to school. The problem is a lot of this lunacy and quack science come alarmist religion is pushed into their brains at school by school teachers and in exams. It is surely, like most religions, a form of child abuse. A blatant abuse of gullible youth.

    • DavidJ
      Posted December 6, 2019 at 2:21 am | Permalink

      Excellent post but those of us who reject the propaganda are denied a voice in the MSM.

  33. Iain Moore
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 9:59 am | Permalink

    The lack of any vision being offered by the Conservatives (like having a policy to revitalise our manufacturing sector) plays into Labour’s hands of lots of free stuff, and allows the media to spend all its time trawling over the past.

    • Iain Gill
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

      yep they should have a joined up vision

      sadly lacking in all our political class now

  34. glen cullen
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 10:19 am | Permalink

    Most media interview questions have been bland and oh my god the answers from MPs have been even blander

    But last nights ITV Preston Vs Johnston interview actually did get to the nuts and bolts of when we leave the EU under a conservative government

    Johnston just kept repeating the 31st Jan, the 31st Jan, the 31st Jan

    But agreed, after a fashion, that during the transition period we are subject to all EU laws, can’t sign trade agreements etc etc…..then repeated we are leaving on the 31st Jan

    Is the PM taking us for fools?

    • Fred H
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

      glen – – you need to ask the question?

    • Andy
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

      Yes. And evidence suggests he is right to.

      • Fred H
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

        of course he’s taking many for fools – but not me. You seem to have missed my point?

      • NickC
        Posted December 6, 2019 at 2:13 am | Permalink

        Andy, Well, clearly not. There’s not a lot of trust in Boris on here.

      • Anonymous
        Posted December 6, 2019 at 5:51 am | Permalink

        You’d better hope so or Magic Grandpa is coming for your wealth and is going to kick your kids out of private school.

        Lefty students with a double vote and enough Boris sceptics like me could well see Corbyn getting in.

        You started this. You started Brexit by your haughty disregard of the working classes who normally vote for the same party as you.

  35. Gareth Warren
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 10:20 am | Permalink

    To be honest I do not believe fact checkers any more than the word of a single expert, I see them as another method of control and influence.

    But a single logical argument can change my mind. I suspect many people think this way hence the dimishing influence of mainstream media and the rise of Trump/brexit, the days of chanting education, education, education are over – at least for me.

  36. BOF
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 10:39 am | Permalink

    The MSM has, especially since Leveson, abandoned its role to hold the establishment to account (the fourth estate) and has become part of that establishment.

    I now get most of my information from independent sources on the internet, otherwise I would not know that we are being fed a continuous stream of lies and half truths presented as fact when in fact it is biased opinion.

  37. bill brown
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    Sir JR,

    Good and very relevant subject and debate to raise and discussed.

    However, it is very difficult to believe politicians, when the choice is between either a PM who finds it difficult to stick to the truth and changes his versions constantly and an opposition leader wo never gives a straight answer.

  38. rose
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 10:59 am | Permalink

    The Green woman in our constituency told the young people at a Youth Hustings that it was quite safe to vote for her rather than the socialist because the Tories had never, ever held the seat and there was no danger of their getting in. She added she would be quite happy if the socialist got in. In fact the seat was established in 1885 and from that year till 1997 it was held only by the Conservatives. In 2017, during peak Corbymania, the Conservative came second. These left wing people are shameless and never more so than when corrupting our young people.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

      Indeed the young are alas rather easier to delude. They rarely pay much tax and many think money grows on trees just like Corbyn and Mc Donnall.

      Any man who is not a socialist at age 20 has no heart. Any man who is still a socialist at age 40 has no head. As someone once said (Churchill perhaps?)

      Though in my case by head overruled my heart from about 10 onwards. Now we also have the problem that the current Conservatives are just socialists light anyway. At least Boris is not quite as dire as Major, Cameron or the dire Theresa (9% & 5th place) May in this respect. Thanks goodness it looks like Boris will just about save us from a Labour/SNP disaster for 5 years. Even if his deal is a very, very poor one indeed.

      • a-tracy
        Posted December 6, 2019 at 11:46 am | Permalink

        The Money Making Expert – Martin Lewis was asking his twitter followers today “How selfish is your vote?”. None of the followers on his twitter see the irony of voting to increase their benefits or rail fare 75% off promises when they’re only 1 of 11% using rail, or expecting other people who both work and don’t claim benefits to pay more to give to them.

        The French are striking because once you give an unproperly costed benefit paid out of taxes it is nearly impossible to take it back. These costs the Labour party are proposing will reduce the private sector workers pensions and savings and will probably seek to remove altogether the original state national insurance pension that the Labour Party is so congratulated for setting up as a Ponzi scheme from the forthcoming 1980s and onward generation!

        The only government that decimated a previous NHS service that worked ok was the Labour government with their poorly introduced contract in 2008, now people I know just can’t afford to get crowns and repairs and are just getting their teeth pulled out.

        • rose
          Posted December 7, 2019 at 12:28 am | Permalink

          Yes, the Conservatives should be drawing attention to France as well as Venezuela. The benefits ratchet cannot be reversed without extreme pain.

  39. Norman
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 11:16 am | Permalink

    It must be very difficult these days, for any sound, experienced politician. No doubt there are many, even among colleagues who, though sincere, fall seriously short in one way or another. So to keep a steady hand on the tiller, with so few whom you can trust, must be burdensome indeed. Just to say, Sir John, as far as one can judge from your posts, and within understandable political constraints I am sure I am among many who appreciate your wisdom and honesty,. I hope you will keep going, even when you may not receive the support you deserve. Trust, like freedom, is such a fragile thing. But it makes such a difference to the world we live and move in.

  40. formula57
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 11:23 am | Permalink

    I tend to assume the interviewers are not up to their job, typically being too obviously ill-educated and ill-prepared, often failing to ask the correct questions, being too easily deflected by poor responses and some exhibiting show trial antics in the supposed belief that competence is thereby vouched. Quality in public life, especially the fourth estate, is at an exorbitant premium.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

      Indeed with the sole exception of Andrew Neil (who is fairly central) they are all left wing, big government, slightly dim, PC art graduates. They have almost zero understanding of science, logic, business, negotiation, risk reward, climate, the tax systems or real world economics. Also a complete inability to think in real time and taking all their leads from the Guardian/Independent or New Statesman think.

      Watch the Jordan Peterson/Cathy Newman Channel 4 interview to see just how dim someone with a first (in English) at Oxford can actually be. A good memory perhaps but almost no real time thinking at all. Or the appalling attempted mugging on Rod Liddle on Newsnight.

      • rose
        Posted December 7, 2019 at 12:36 am | Permalink

        Sad to say, Neil has gone into decline and now aims to beat his prey to a pulp rather than inform the audience. the exception was his interview with La Sturgeon in which he thoroughly exposed the dishonesty of her position. Perhaps it was the Unionist in him coming to the rescue. His attack on the PM is beyond contempt. There is no rule which says all leaders must go on all programmes to submit themselves to impertinent questions followed immediately by insolent interruptions. The PM, moreover, is supposed to be governing the country as well as trying to win an election, and he has a punishingly busy day.

  41. NickC
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 11:30 am | Permalink

    Jr, Solzhenitsyn pointed out “The fish rots from the head”. I’m sorry but that is what is happening. Both the expenses scandal and the refusal to implement our vote to Leave are demonstrations of the rot. It will be a long road back, and only if politicians acknowledge their own corruption.

  42. William Long
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

    Unfortunately I suspect that most lof the so called ‘Fact checkers’ are recruited by the media, and this particularly applies to the BBC, because they are known to favour a pcertain point of view, and will therefor endorse it.

    • Balance?
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 12:32 pm | Permalink

      Sky News Fact Checkers do leave out a load of stuff. But generally do make a balanced criticism of Party Manifestos, in my opinion.
      Everybody’s fact of course can have a trail and scaffolding, some open ended, to support their party position.
      The Labour Party however takes advantage of that, that their position receives equal coverage and respect in the “Valid Pendulum”.
      If the Labour Party had a one to ten in its Manifesto promising varying amounts from a low of one million pounds to ten million pounds which it intended to give to every British person on reaching power, and immediately, the Sky News Fact Checkers and possibly all media Fact Checkers would balance out such claims and make them as valid as a political party who named one to ten members of the animal kingdom which it intended to give a thoroughly good meal(s) one good meal to 10 good meals.
      At the end of their fact checking, the validity and possibility on each of the parties delivering would come over as equal.

    • Polly
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

      Exactly……

      One can hardly believe who has donated heavily to Full Fact…. but unfortunately I won’t be allowed to tell you !

      Polly

      • hefner
        Posted December 5, 2019 at 10:01 pm | Permalink

        Oh yes, the list of their large donors is on their website (fullfact.org). Aren’t you a bit of a conspiracy theorist?
        PS: I am one of the small donors, in case you would like to ask.

        • Polly
          Posted December 6, 2019 at 10:16 am | Permalink

          ”A conspiracy theorist” ?

          Oh my goodness me…..

          Does it show ?

          Polly x

      • dixie
        Posted December 6, 2019 at 5:56 pm | Permalink

        The issue with “full fact” is that they believe their neutrality is demonstrated by having board members from the three main parties – the three main, dishonest, deceitful, dishonourable and disloyal parties.

        So how much stock should be placed in full fact being neutral, honest etc, etc who pretend they are the sole UK fact checker.

    • Posted December 5, 2019 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

      The other side of the coin is the city economists.

      Who want households and business to take on even more debt. Private sector debt the debt that really matters.

      They have a revolving door with newsnight.

  43. Fairness
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 12:11 pm | Permalink

    I find the media interviewing a politician advocating revoking Article 50 on the basis of being elected by far less a number of voters than the Leave referendum voters disgusting.
    They should not be interviewed. Except to ask
    “Do you believe and will in fact revoke Article 50 immediately if you gain power on the then unarguable basis that your party has gained say 10 million votes in total when as we know Leave voters totalled over 17 million in the yet to be enacted referendum result?”
    Time will be given for the politician to say their ‘Buts’ but must answer yes or no at the end or in the process of a five minute period of answering. Then the interviewer should say
    “Thank you” Mr or Ms So-and-so “That is all our British viewers will ever need to know about your politics and position. Good night!”

  44. Lester Beedell
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

    The sheer arrogance of the Brussels broadcasting corporation in seeking to fact check the politicians is totally breathtaking and I’m awaiting an announcement that the organisation will be investigated after the election
    Lord Reith must be spinning in his grave to see what was once the most trusted source of news has become, I’m not able to follow any of their programmes such as Question Time and as for the Andrew Marr show!
    Please don’t get me started on Channel 4

  45. Christine
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

    It’s no wonder people think politicians lie because they do. How many times did Mrs May tell us we were leaving the EU? How many time did she say “no deal is better than a bad deal”? The British people have lost all faith in politicians and judiciary. The Conservatives are only ahead in the polls because of the fear of getting Corbyn. You will have five years to build trust again. Use this time wisely.

  46. Mark
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    Part of the problem is a lack of underlying knowledge on the part of interviewers and those being interviewed. Perhaps nowhere is this more evident than for energy policy. No party at this election is pointing out that a zero carbon policy is both unachievable and extremely economically damaging.

  47. DavidJ
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

    Consider that the so called professional fact checkers have their own agenda, which will comply with the agenda of the particular broadcaster, then decide if their opinion is worth anything.

  48. Fred H
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    OFF TOPIC….
    Recently there were posts here about better pensions in the EU. Today France has been crippled by widespread strikes over pension reform. Strikers protest about about the proposal to retire later and suffer reduced pension on retirement. So much for being better over there.

    • Mark B
      Posted December 6, 2019 at 6:30 am | Permalink

      EU Rules. Convergence.

    • hefner
      Posted December 6, 2019 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

      Well, a bit of reading would have taught you a lot. The French strikes are basically because the French government wants to replace defined benefits pensions by defined contributions pensions. And given three parameters: the amount of contributions, the age of retirement, the amount of benefits, the system now proposed by the French government (which was originally favoured as it would replace 42 different systems by a unique one) is now seen for what it is: a system where either the contributions would increase, and/or the age of retirement would increase and/or the benefits would decrease (all that when two parameters are fixed and one is adjusted). France can be thought to be very late in proposing such a system, as similar ones have been going on for some years in the UK and in German (thanks to Helmut Schmidt).
      And yes despite its very complex 42-pension system, the present system is much more generous than what is proposed by the French government and much better than the UK one.
      And the present changes pushed by the French government have practically nothing to do directly with the EU rules or convergence. Sorry Mark B. It is all due to Macron’s (and his government’s) idea of “modernizing France”.

  49. Anonymous
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

    The BBC has control of the language, the agenda and now the facts.

    Conservatism (both big and small ‘c’) has been outlawed.

    I cannot bring myself to vote on the 12th. ‘To keep the others out’. No. Not again.

    I can live on very little.

    Andy can’t.

    And I hope he finds my spaced out post condescending too.

    (Private schools are wrong in a land where rich Remainers send their kids to them to escape the worst effects of the mass immigration they force on the rest of us. Corbyn won’t be all bad.)

    • NickC
      Posted December 6, 2019 at 1:17 am | Permalink

      Anon, Except there will still be private schools, but only for the Nomenklatura.

    • Mark B
      Posted December 6, 2019 at 6:29 am | Permalink

      We can get rid of Corbyn, not so the EU as witnessed by three and a half years of stalling by the Tories.

    • rose
      Posted December 7, 2019 at 12:46 am | Permalink

      “Corbyn won’t be all bad.)” doesn’t mean it won’t go on for a very long time. They could rig the electoral system and add foreigners and sixteen year olds; they could crash the economy and declare a state of emergency: no money allowed out but millions of people allowed in, no elections for the time being…

  50. BillM
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 4:31 pm | Permalink

    The election hustings have become a farce, more like an auction room. Who can brag the most convincingly to win the power over the British people.
    Given the manifestos of 2017 and the final outcomes I can no longer believe anything the main Party leaders tell us. The last debacle and evidence of Conservative political shenanigans is the resignation of three BP MEPs who have now switched to support the Tories. One of who was the sister of Tory and ex- ERG Chairman JRM. LOL. It stinks so much I can smell it from here. Those BP MEPs joined the BP and offered their services knowing full well what the Party aim was. To obey the People’s decision in the Referendum and Leave the EU without a deal.
    So why do these dubious turn-coats now, at this late stage, decide to change their minds? This smells like a plot from Dom Cummins and demonstrates that the Tories are no better than Corbyn’s Labour nor the LibDems when is comes to dishonest behaviour. Betrayal begets anger and I shall not be surprised to see another hung Parliament in Westminster later next week. Then what? The remainers win?

    • DavidJ
      Posted December 6, 2019 at 2:09 am | Permalink

      Unfortunately Sir John Redwood is one of a tiny minority of MPs who may be trusted. Supporting Boris will not get us out of the EU unless his WA is binned. See the summary from the Bruges Group in my comment below.

  51. ferdinand
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 5:46 pm | Permalink

    Generally I agree with you but there is one area where the facts are available but not sought, and that is carbon dioxide driven catastrophic global warming. It’s a nonsense but too much money is being invested to hide the truth.

    • DavidJ
      Posted December 6, 2019 at 2:12 am | Permalink

      Excellent point; mass indoctrination to further the agenda of the globalists.

  52. Oliver
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 6:10 pm | Permalink

    Very true, Sir John.

    The Times are running an allegedly rep sample of 100, who they poll on a question, then have experts (how selected?) “inform” them… then poll again.

    Today, two issues – Privatisation in the NHS, and Tuition fees.

    When they became better informed, on both issues, the vote moved more toward the (common sense, blindingly obvious) Tory position.

    Which explains in a nutshell why smarter, older people vote Tory – they know more.

    • Dominic
      Posted December 5, 2019 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

      This is not a dig at our host as he’s in no position to influence the direction in which the Tory party is taken, the leader and his advisers (and CCHQ) decide that. But it cannot be denied that the Tory party today is a total shell, a mere conduit, an empty vessel without principle. That’s an intolerable state of affairs in a country that’s been ravaged, politicised and morally purged by progressives, liberal left fascists and socialists operating within Labour with the Tory party desperate to conform to this most pernicious and authoritarian ideology

      When was the last time a leading Tory MP called for the dismantling of the BBC, the CPS or another one of Labour’s appointed and controlled Quango organisations? Never, they’re an unspirited, unprincipled sham

      When the Tory party confronts and dismantles all that Labour’s built since 1997 then we can say the Tory party is back to what it used to be. Until then it’s a travesty and a con and most Tory MPs know it

    • Mark B
      Posted December 6, 2019 at 6:14 am | Permalink

      People who vote Tory do so because they have accumulated wealth. Wealth that Socialists would steal from them. Wisdom has nothing to do with it otherwise they would vote for a true Right-Wing small state political party.

      • Oliver
        Posted December 6, 2019 at 11:48 am | Permalink

        You need to look at the HMRC wealth stats. They don’t even remotely support your argument.

  53. steve
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

    JR

    You speak of trust. Well, there isn’t much of that to be found these days. We’ve been serially lied to for the last 3 years over brexit.

    It is only because it is you speaking of trust, that I try to remain dignified in my response. Any other MP and I would have been on his / her throat at the very mention of the word.

    Personally I don’t see trust in politicians ever being restored after this farce. There is certainly a long way to go, a very long way indeed. I’ve not seen anything like this in all my years.

    The fact is that people have been very hurt by what has gone on. People feel betrayed, and betrayal is one of the worst things you can do to someone.

    It will take a lot of putting right.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted December 7, 2019 at 11:30 am | Permalink

      We’ve been serially lied to for over the EU common market since Heath took us in he created the utterly misleading impression that belonging to the ‘Common Market’ would entail no loss of national sovereignty. This was a blatant lie as E Powell and Tony Benn (father of the surrender bill one Hillary Benn).

      Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown and “cast iron” Cameron, Clegg all dug us in more deeply without any of the many promised referendums until 2016 then we had to suffer the appalling 9% 5th place remainer May.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted December 7, 2019 at 11:31 am | Permalink

        As E Powell , T Benn and others pointed out at the time, I meant.

  54. Fred H
    Posted December 5, 2019 at 11:40 pm | Permalink

    Sir John – – – I hope the heavy realisation of our views on here are an awakening of the very real plight the Conservsative Party is facing. I would guess most posters are better educated, older and wiser than the norm. Yet they are severe in their criticism of most things the party is trying to sway people to vote for. I wish the rest of your party would become familiar with views on here, it just might save it for the future. I for one could not vote for any party except Brexit – it is that important to me. It is only that I couldn’t sleep at night lending my vote to the competitor you have, therefore you get mine. I wish you luck, but your party needs it a lot more than you. I wonder if the party will have any chance at all in a future GE.

  55. DavidJ
    Posted December 6, 2019 at 2:03 am | Permalink

    The truth about the Boris WA; Executive summary by the Bruges Group:

    The Treaty permanently restricts our military independence, demands payment of an unspecified sum, prevents independent arbitration, grants EU officials immunity from UK laws, leaves us with EIB contingent liabilities running into tens if not hundreds of billions and will impose punitive laws on the UK during a transition which is likely to be extended until mid-2022 (just a few months before the next General Election).

    The Political Declaration is such that a future FTA with the EU is made unpalatable because it will restrict our foreign policy and military independence as well as policies in trade, tax, fishing, environment, social and employment, competition and state aid. Free movement is replaced with vague notions of “mobility” and “non-discrimination”.

    • hefner
      Posted December 6, 2019 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

      Would you expect anything else from the Bruges Group?

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, He graduated from Magdalen College Oxford, has a DPhil and is a fellow of All Souls College. A businessman by background, he has been a director of NM Rothschild merchant bank and chairman of a quoted industrial PLC.

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