The battle of the EU budgets – and the rule of law

The EU claimed it had reached agreement on a 7 year budget from 1 January 2021 and on the planned Euro 750 billion CV 19 recovery fund, now known as the Next Generation EU fund. There remains, however, one large obstacle.

Poland and Hungary object to the rule of law proviso. The European Parliament is particularly keen on this part of the deal. It means any country that is said to have infringed the EU’s idea of the rule of law will not receive their sums from the fund. Poland and Hungary are presently thought to be in violation over independence of judges. Both countries have said they will veto the financial package as a result, and believe the EU is seeking to change their migration policies to one of open borders by this means.

Mrs Merkel currently chairs the Council as Germany holds the rotating Presidency. She is keen to sit down with the President of the Commission and try to broker a way through. They have to prepare for the crucial meeting on December 10/11 when unanimous agreement is needed, and they need to woo the European Parliament to accept any compromise.

The multi annual 7 year budget is planned at Euro 1.1 trillion , boosted to Euro 1.8tn with the borrowing fund. This will require every member state to consent to lifting the current ceiling on the budget. Whilst this sounds like a lot of money, it is around1.5% of the combined GDPs per annum. Some 30% of the total is said to be to promote green growth.

The Commission plans to use permission for this larger 7 year budget to justify a range of new taxes over the next few years to be levied at EU level. They want an expanded emissions levy, a Financial Transactions levy, a Digital levy, and a couple of proposals to tax company profits. Gradually, step by step, they are building their fiscal union. By offering Hungary and Poland larger shares of the planned Next Generation fund they hoped to rein them in on borders and the rule of law.

It is going to be gripping battle, as this is the one occasion when member states have some individual power as they still have a veto over the 7 year budget and the new fund. Once the new fund is established, assuming consent, an important new principle of the EU borrowing large sums on its own account to promote pan Union policies has been established.

It would be interesting to hear from those who still regret the U.K. decision to leave on the following issues

1 If we had stayed in should we have supported this substantial increase in the EU budget?

2 Should we have accepted part liability for the Next Generation Fund or fought to keep it outside the EU balance sheet somehow? Would we have been happy to be a substantial net contributor through this mechanism?

3. Would we have accepted the new EU taxes which flow naturally from the larger budget or would we have battled to prevent the EU increasing its direct tax raising powers?

4. Does this further move on tax and budgets confirm yet again this EU is much more than a trading arrangement or customs union?

252 Comments

  1. Fred H
    November 23, 2020

    Small but regular steps towards a dictatorship Commission.

    1. SM
      November 23, 2020

      I’m a Brexiteer. I don’t feel the word ‘dictatorship’ is appropriate to describe the Commission, but what seriously worries me is that it might just be applicable to the behaviour primarily of Hungary’s current Prime Minister, and (a little farther back as yet) Poland’s President.

      1. Hope
        November 23, 2020

        We read over the weekend the U.K. paid the extra £1.9 billion presented to the govt on Brexit day and quietly paid it during the lockdown summer when our economy was going ”tits up!

        JR, What is the UK on the hook forfrom 01/01/2021 that your treacherous govt secretly signed the country up to? £39 billion was invented for propaganda by Hammond’s Treaury to stop the public anger. EU wanted principles signed up to. So tell us what is the U.K. Liability? The truth please.

        Could you tell businesses across the country what the plan is for 01/01/2021?

        Johnson was going to walk, June, July and on 31/10/2020! Seems his lardy arse has not moved.

      2. Hope
        November 23, 2020

        Timothy Bradshaw Con Woman and many others fear Johnson has already caved.

        The EU keep our fish and the U.K. Obeys its regs/laws. I am sure there will be some slimy wording about reviewed every ten years or so.

        What are you and chums doing JR? The WA and NIP was a disgraceful act in humiliating our nation and keeping it under EU vassalage. Now what is your excuse?

        Internal Market Bill not enacted but delayed, no repudiation of the WA and NIP? So vassalage forever spun as a deal?

      3. Lynn Atkinson
        November 23, 2020

        Oligarchy is the correct term for the EU Commission. Only they can propose legislation and it is deemed to have been approved unless voted down by a majority of the ‘parliament’. A majority is never even present!

        1. margaret howard
          November 24, 2020

          Lynn

          Wiki: Definition of oligarchy:

          “Oligarchy is a form of power structure in which power rests with a small number of people. These people may be distinguished by nobility, wealth, education, corporate, religious, political, or military control. Such states are often controlled by families who pass their influence from one generation to the next, but inheritance is not a necessary condition of oligarchy.”
          ==

          Reminds you of something nearer to home?
          They even still have their House of Lords here. And their own public schools which keep supplying our ‘elected leaders’

      4. Martin in Cardiff
        November 23, 2020

        Yes, if you join a club then you abide by the rules.

        It is entirely for the European Union as a whole to decide what it means by the rule of law, but the independence of the judiciary is crucial to most civilised notions of this – the US would fail on that it seems, but that’s little surprise.

        If Poland and Hungary don’t like that then they should leave before they are expelled anyway.

        1. NickC
          November 24, 2020

          It is up to the EU “as a whole”, but apparently not up to Poland and Hungary? Are they not part of the “whole” then? Don’t they get to help decide what the new rules of the new slush fund are? It seems that the EU is a group of friendly nations cooperating only when it suits you, and a “club” – directed by an unelected committee when the rules have to be obeyed.

    2. NickC
      November 23, 2020

      Fred H, Boris Johnson is copying that dictatorship – even if we actually leave the EU (increasingly unlikely) we will get the same policies. We have been comprehensively outmanoeuvred by the globalists, who have “turned” Johnson.

      We have already rolled over and accepted both house arrest and the National Covid Service instead of the NHS. Next in line is to “force” vaccination on pain of not being able to travel, or even go to the shops. Coming soon, the government intends to take away our home heating and our cars. All while effectively nationalising the economy, and “paying” for it by printed money.

      Corbyn could not have been worse. In fact it would probably be the same.

      1. Hope
        November 23, 2020

        Nick,
        Johnson now banning advertising of food before 9pm! Presumably because he is so obese and has no self discipline!

        Unbelievable that when our economy requires a boost he thinks of every way to stifle enterprise in every way he can.

        Press littered with articles about his self destructive innumerate green plan over the last week- killing jobs business, way of life and making us have a third world country outlook! We cannot afford this utter fool socially, morally, politically or economically. JR and chums have a lot to answer for in keeping him in office.

      2. Hope
        November 23, 2020

        Nick,

        Yes, it is like living in Cuba.

    3. Lifelogic
      November 23, 2020

      Indeed

    4. Martin in Cardiff
      November 23, 2020

      The European Commission could never have imposed a lockdown in any member country, nor ordered the wearing of masks etc., nor are there proposals for it ever to have such powers.

      The power is with the nations.

      Poland and Hungary might well be expelled, and the Union would be none the worse for it.

      It is not firstly an economic project, nor a political one.

      It is a moral one.

      (Find your dictionaries.)

      1. SM
        November 23, 2020

        MiC – you set up a couple of troublesome thoughts:

        if Poland and Hungary are indeed expelled, who will they turn to but the lure of President Putin?

        and weren’t you one of the major proponents on this blog for the wisdom and political good sense of all the EU members, save for the UK?

      2. Roy Grainger
        November 23, 2020

        I checked and you are wrong, a moral project is clearly not one whose accounts haven’t been signed off for the last 19 years. Glad to be of help. Maybe they do things differently in Senegal ?

      3. Lynn Atkinson
        November 23, 2020

        😂😂 ‘a moral project’! God help you, nobody else can!

        1. Lifelogic
          November 23, 2020

          Indeed and god does not help very many as 1. he is rather busy and 2. Is invented by mankind.

          1. Dennis Zoff
            November 26, 2020

            +1

        2. NickC
          November 24, 2020

          Lynn, I think Martin means the EU is an amoral project.

      4. Edward20
        November 23, 2020

        We were told it was just a Common Market.

      5. Mike Wilson
        November 23, 2020

        I guess you’ll believe what you want to believe. To take but one example – the EU position on immigration.

        The EU measures on legal immigration cover the conditions of entry and residence for certain categories of immigrants, such as highly qualified workers subject to the ‘EU Blue Card Directive’ and students and researchers. … It creates a set of rights for non-EU workers legally residing in an EU State.

        So, the EU decides the rights of non-EU workers legally residing in an EU State. Hmmm, sounds like they are the government to me.

      6. M P B
        November 23, 2020

        owain glyndwr

        Study your history.

  2. Richard1
    November 23, 2020

    Thanks, excellent summary. Simply amazing that there is no reporting of this in the UK. Indeed were we still in the EU we would undoubtedly be on the hook for all this. PM Osborne would be angrily trying (and largely failing) to fight for UK opt-outs, whilst assuring the UK public it was all about making the single market work more efficiently. The left would be just saying agree the EU line.

    The jury is still out on whether Brexit will be a success, and the answer will determine the next genera election. But it is certainly worth pointing out the situation we would now be in had the UK voted to remain.

    1. Martin in Cardiff
      November 23, 2020

      Except that the UK was enormously influential, and so the present position in the European Union might well have been very different were it still a member – not that there’s much wrong with the proposals anyway.

      1. Fred H
        November 23, 2020

        crystal ball gazing again?

      2. stephen Carr
        November 23, 2020

        “The UK was enormously influential”, What planet are you no Martin ?. The majority of “The UK’s influence” was turned down/voted down at every turn !.

        1. Dennis Zoff
          November 26, 2020

          MiC does not like inconvenient truths!

      3. czerwonadupa
        November 23, 2020

        Moral & the EU should never be used in the same sentence. The two examples below show their distaste for ordinary people
        Sovereign nation states must not listen to the will of their citizens when it comes to questions of immigration, borders or even sovereignty. – Merkel 21/11/2018
        Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually & irreversibly lead to federation. – Jean Monnet, Founding Father of the EU 30/04/1952

      4. czerwonadupa
        November 23, 2020

        So influential that Cameron returned from the 2016 summit completely empty handed & showed the British people Brussels saw us as just a milch cow, to be milked whenever they were on the lookout for more funds.

      5. Richard1
        November 23, 2020

        The UK would most assuredly have fought tooth and nail against this euro bailout – that’s what it is. and of course against the principle of EU taxes and transfers, all of which the pro-EU side in the UK asserted for years would not and could not happen.

        But although there would have been a lot of bad tempered briefings and conversations, just as there were over the EU treaties over the last 30 years, we may be fairly certain the end result would have been the same. UK taxpayers would have been on the hook for these transfers to the weaker eurozone economies, and would have had to agree the principle of further future such transfers.

        It would be dominating the news. Farage would be riding high saying ‘I told you so’.

        1. Dennis Zoff
          November 26, 2020

          Farage is still saying ‘I told you so’.

          He for one has always had a thorough understanding of the UK ruling/Political class and the EU’s in-depth nefarious future plans?

    2. Lynn Atkinson
      November 23, 2020

      Osborn would not be angry at all.

  3. Sea_Warrior
    November 23, 2020

    I deplore the EU’s tactics – though, increasingly, will care less and less for what goes on in Brussels. I don’t much like to see inter-governmental talks try to wrap up multiple issues in a single agreement. We see this in our own negotations with the EU: trade, fishing, security – all being wrapped up in a single agreement. It’s a recipe for dither and delay – and helps explain why, with November coming to an end, there is still no agreement.
    I hope Poland and Hungary will stand firm. The EU needs a taste of its own, obstructive medicine.

    1. beresford
      November 23, 2020

      The EU is simply exploiting the incompetence of our negotiators for their own ends, which they are entitled to do. There is no obligation on them to be fair or even-handed.

      1. Hope
        November 23, 2020

        And it is not the fault of the EU that Johnson is so weak and insipid not to walk away or hold the EU to account which demonstrates to them quite clearly he will accept whatever he is given. The EU only ever wanted a bad deal for the U.K. And it is a surprise to the world that the two Fake Tory PMs are happy to oblige!

        You would have thought JR and chums would have focus their energy at home rather than the EU! If Johnson failed to walk you would have thought his party would have ousted him! After all Johnson to,d the country and party leave by October last year or face extinction!

        1. Dennis Zoff
          November 26, 2020

          Our government, to a person, are feathering their own nests…..the self-serving status quo, comes naturally for them all!

      2. Lynn Atkinson
        November 23, 2020

        Or us? So we can tear up a rubbish agreement accepted under duress or without authority from the People?

      3. Sea_Warrior
        November 23, 2020

        There is: Article 7 of their Lisbon Treay.

    2. dixie
      November 23, 2020

      I don’t agree we should stay ignorant of what goes on in Brussels, how else will we plan and respond to any aggressive economic and/or diplomatic acts on their part.

      We should be pro-active on our international relations not simply respond when the likes of the EU attempt to coerce. dictate or otherwise interfere in our affairs.

    3. Martin in Cardiff
      November 23, 2020

      You clearly care nothing for the rule of law, just like Trumps and his thralls.

      You simply want laws which protect but do not bind your “us”, and which bind but do not protect your “them”, like all Conservatives.

      1. Roy Grainger
        November 23, 2020

        The laws about accounts having to be signed off to prevent fraud ? Those laws ?

      2. czerwonadupa
        November 23, 2020

        Baroness Claire Fox made the following powerful speech during the House of Lords debate on the Internal Market Bill on November 10th. She defends part 5 of the Bill which allows UK ministers to override the NI Protocol in matters of trade damaging to the integrity of the UK. In her view democratic will trumps international treaties every time.

        “Noble Lords may be worried about the damage to the UK’s reputation abroad. I worry about the damage this House might inflict on the UK’s democratic reputation here at home if it insists on emasculating this Bill by amendments.”

        I couldn’t put it better myself

        1. Edward2
          November 24, 2020

          Which international treaties are you referring to?

      3. Edward20
        November 23, 2020

        You clearly care nothing for the rule of law…says the man who thought BLMs violence was exciting.

        1. Lynn Atkinson
          November 23, 2020

          And who does not care where votes come from so oK g as they are ‘all counted’ 😱

      4. steve
        November 23, 2020

        MiC

        “You simply want laws which protect but do not bind your “us”, and which bind but do not protect your “them”

        ===========

        I no longer see you as educated as I had originally given you credit for.

        Clearly you are ignorant as to the origin and meaning of ‘outlaw’.

        The very meaning of the word implies that laws are intended to protect.

    4. Mary M.
      November 23, 2020

      Go Poland! Go Hungary!

      1. Martin in Cardiff
        November 23, 2020

        They might very well be pushed.

      2. Peter
        November 23, 2020

        +1

  4. oldtimer
    November 23, 2020

    The long term ambition of the EU Commission and its supporters has always been for more than just a trading arrangement or customs union. The Johnson government, now in the final days/hours of it negotiations with the EU, needs to be crystal clear about its break from the EU and not shackled by it either in its current form or any future evolution of it.

    1. Lifelogic
      November 23, 2020

      Boris will surely cave in. Carrie will probably order him to if he does not voluntarily. When he caves in it will be a mistake even more idiotic than his 10 point green lunacy or HS2 or the second lockdown.

      1. Lifelogic
        November 23, 2020

        Or signing what was mainly the appalling May deal that has left him in a predictable mess now.

      2. M Davis
        November 23, 2020

        If Boris caves in, that is the end of the Tory Party. I think most of us here would see to that!

        1. Dennis Zoff
          November 26, 2020

          The Reform Party is waiting in the wings and dusting off their war chest!

    2. Andy
      November 23, 2020

      We are not in the final days / hours of negotiations with the EU.

      This is just the beginning. It will literally last the rest of your life – until my generation undoes it.

      1. Lynn Atkinson
        November 23, 2020

        Your generation will not live that long. As soon as my generation is not there to spoon feed you, your finished!

        1. steve
          November 23, 2020

          Lynn

          +1 Well said.

        2. Dennis Zoff
          November 26, 2020

          +1 }:O)

      2. Edward20
        November 23, 2020

        Only Greens and Lib Dems would try to rejoin.
        Look how badly they did in the last election.

    3. Martin in Cardiff
      November 23, 2020

      Of course its ambitions – along with the people’s – are far more than those. The treaties expressly state them, along with many declarations and resolutions.

      It is a moral project, a peace process above all.

      1. Fred H
        November 23, 2020

        peace from what? some country invading them yet again?

      2. Bryan Harris
        November 23, 2020

        Not that old chestnut again… Martin

        No doubt we will be hearing the blarney about how the EU has kept the peace and stopped us going to war… When in fact their interfering habits, trying to invoke 1 **** ‘spring’ after another has shown how immature and pointless the EU really is.

        If the EU had any morality they’d look after the people of their own countries better and not bribe nearby states into supporting their views.

      3. Lynn Atkinson
        November 23, 2020

        The EU is permanently at war!

      4. czerwonadupa
        November 23, 2020

        Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually & irreversibly lead to federation. – Jean Monnet, Founding Father of the EU 30/04/1952

        So why the opaqueness since its birth?. A bastard birth of deception from the outset

      5. Edward20
        November 23, 2020

        NATO kept the peace for decades before the EU began.

        1. bill brown
          November 23, 2020

          Edward20

          Wrong agani I am afraid it was started in 1952 just a few years after NATO, read the history

          1. Edward2
            November 24, 2020

            That was a coal and steel trade federation.
            It had nothing to do with Foreign policy.

      6. Mike Wilson
        November 23, 2020

        It is a moral project, a peace process above all.

        If getting rid of democracy is moral, then, you’re right.

  5. Bryan Harris
    November 23, 2020

    I won’t answer the questions for obvious reasons.

    If this battle is won by the commission, it will certainly be another pivotal moment for the EU — for as the EU moves towards being able to obtain their own sources of tax income, the less they will need be concerned with what member states think or do…
    The power of the states will become less and less, while the commission will grow strong enough to force compliance at every level within the union.

    Anybody that still imagines the EU is there for the people will no doubt be in shock as it further evolves into a more systematic version of the old USSR. (Use the same system of extrapolation as SAGE does to reach conclusions about where the EU is headed)

    1. DavidJ
      November 23, 2020

      One might hope that they will succeed in their ever more Draconian efforts and persuade more EU nations to leave, leading to it destruction.

      Whilst ever it remains we may be sure that some idiots / traitors will be working to take us back in.

      1. Bryan Harris
        November 23, 2020

        Too true DavidJ

        The countries should surely start making efforts to get out now, before the EU make it impossible to leave.

  6. Grey Friar
    November 23, 2020

    Whatever decisions are taken by the EU will affect us directly, because all our neighbours are EU members and almost half our exports go to the EU. If we were a member, we would have a say in the taking of all the decisions you mention, and for most of them we would have a veto, as well as our continuing optout from the Euro. But now we will stand on the sidelines, with absolutely no power or influence, and just have to suck up what the 27 choose. That’s Brexit for you – Britain marginalised

    1. Bryan Harris
      November 23, 2020

      BUT you didn’t answer any questions posed by our host….

      Why on earth do you want to get involved with the complex and soul destroying rules made by the EU — When we were in and allegedly had a ‘say’ we were totally defeated on a majority of issues – so being in it to change it or influence it was a total sham.

      Being on the outside we will have more power to make the EU work better… Providing we don’t get shafted by a bad deal.

      1. Len Smith
        November 23, 2020

        Nonsense. The EUs greatest achievement is its single market – a British Project. Enlargement to the East – again, British. We were big winners in the EU, now we will just have to stand watching as the world is run by the US, China and the EU.

        1. Edward2
          November 25, 2020

          USA, Russia and China.

          1. bill brown
            November 25, 2020

            Edward 2

            the steel and coal union was set up as part of the measure to make sure there would never be another war between France and Germany and further collaboraton. It has all to do with foreign ploicy.

          2. Edward2
            November 25, 2020

            No it wasn’t.
            It was a straightforward trade arrangement of co operation in these specific industries.
            There was no pan European peace keeping role or powers.
            The EU only started in 1993.

    2. beresford
      November 23, 2020

      Decisions we take on trade deals will affect the EU while they stand on the sidelines. EU marginalised.

    3. DavidJ
      November 23, 2020

      You might be willing to be ruled by the Eurocrats; I and many others don’t.

    4. Lynn Atkinson
      November 23, 2020

      We only have an opt-out of phase 3 of the Euro – the introduction of the actual currency for tender. Phases 1 and 2 we are signed up to.
      So would you reconsider your response now that you have this information?

    5. MickN
      November 23, 2020

      I will accept what you say as soon as you pay all your wages into a joint account with all the people in your street and allow them to dictate to you what you may spend the part of it that they give you back on. See how much influence you have.

      1. Lynn Atkinson
        November 23, 2020

        I made my MP a similar offer. I proposed that he paid all his income into an account that I controlled. I would undertake to spend all he money on him and his family.
        I mean it would have been new curtains rather than Eton for the boys .. but there you go. He was not keen, but voted for Maastricht (currency Union, HM agreed to become a common citizen etc etc

      2. Lynn Atkinson
        November 23, 2020

        I made my MP a similar offer. I proposed that he paid all his income into an account that I controlled. I would undertake to spend all he money on him and his family.
        I mean it would have been new curtains rather than Eton for the boys .. but there you go. He was not keen, but voted for Maastricht (currency Union, HM agreed to become a common citizen etc etc

    6. NickC
      November 23, 2020

      Grey Friar, You seem to forget about the rest of the world. Even in the C16th we thought the rest of the world was more important than the bickering corrupt states on the fringes of the Eurasian continent. And, of course the reality is that we have no power within the EU, and precious little influence. Anyway, why have mere “influence” over your own destiny when you can have full control by being independent?

    7. agricola
      November 23, 2020

      You have chosen the right colour for your pen name.

    8. Tony Sharp
      November 23, 2020

      Firstly, the UK is the biggest European export market for the EU member states and other non EU nations.
      Secondly, the UK buys more from the EU than we export to it, so that the balance of trade and payments is negative .
      This does not make the UK marginal, it makes it a key player.
      The only ‘say’ in these issues EU members have is either reject or accept, I suggest they reject and look to themselves for a solution. The veto can only be used for that purpose – ie LEAVE.
      That’s remaners for you – ignorant of trading and political facts who prefer the nation states to lose their independence to a centralised unelected and unaccountable bureaucracy!

    9. Edward20
      November 23, 2020

      But independent and free.
      Able to act just like all the other independent nations in the world.
      It works for Canada and its relationship with America
      It works for New Zealand and its relationship with Australia.

    10. Mike Wilson
      November 23, 2020

      The USA is our second largest export market. Should we join some sort of federal agreement and send them money each year so they can spend it in whichever state they feel needs it? Should we pay to, for example, repair their crumbling infrastructure? If not, why not? Should trade disputes be settled in their courts?

      I bet you don’t, or can’t, answer.

      As for us having a veto! The EU is eliminating vetoes as fast as it can. Qualified Majority outing is now the preferred option.

      1. Martin in Cardiff
        November 23, 2020

        Yes, but it’s a long way behind our first.

      2. Edward2
        November 25, 2020

        You were correct in your predictions Mike.
        No answer from Martin.

    11. graham1946
      November 23, 2020

      ‘We would have a say’

      Tell that to Cameron who trundled round the EU with a begging bowl asking for not much and was sent away like a naughty school boy with nothing. The biggest mis-judgement the EU has made and showed us why we needed to leave.

    12. Original Richard
      November 23, 2020

      GF, would please give examples of our “power and influence” in recent EU decisions.

      I think you need to read the Lisbon Treaty and learn just how many decisons are made by QMV, a system where there are now more votes for recipient nations than for contributor nations.

      As the EU extends QMV and expands further eastwards to enroll another 7 nations our “power and influence” will decline even further even though we will still be a net contributor to EU funds.

      Had we remained in the EU we would have our laws, taxes, and policies decided by politicians and bureaucrats whom we cannot influence because we cannot elect or remove them.

  7. Ben
    November 23, 2020

    don’t know why this subject has been brought up- we left nearly a year ago

    Reply Because the UK has to deal with the results of US, Chinese and EU policies as a global and engaged country. Why are you so touchy about talking about it?

    1. NickC
      November 23, 2020

      Ben, If we have already left where is the Brexit calamities so often predicted by Remains? And why does the EU still control our fish, our borders, our laws, our money and our courts? The EU being still in control of us is not Leave, by definition.

      1. Charl
        November 23, 2020

        Ah yes! But we have not arrived at the 1st of January 2021 just yet- that’s if you’re looking for calamity- and if you’re looking to know about who has control of fish going forward? well we should see within the week- we will know when Boris mouths the words ‘read my lips’

        As regards borders, laws and money we will know all shortly we will see it first hand in the long queues of the suffering business people and public trying to get through at the ports and the crowded lorry parks- we will see it even more clearly when JIT just vanishes. By definition

        1. Edward2
          November 25, 2020

          You do not understand what Just In Time means nor how it works.
          Long queues will be between UK and France because the French will probably play us up.

  8. Ian Wragg
    November 23, 2020

    We haven’t left the EU yet and have no real idea what Johnson is willing to agree too.
    He still has time and probably inclination to accede to the EU demands and keep us in colonial status.
    We could very well finish up funding some of this largesse.

    1. bigneil(newercomp)
      November 23, 2020

      Could ?????

    2. Fedupsoutherner
      November 23, 2020

      Ian exactly what I was thinking. Unless we get a clean break will we end up still paying into the EU coffers in some shape or another. It’s not what I voted for.

    3. Andy
      November 23, 2020

      You left last January. Farage had a party attended by a few thousand old people and Mark Francois failed to get Big Ben to ring. It was the highlight of Brexit so far.

      1. Fred H
        November 23, 2020

        the highlight is you getting knickers in a twist every day.

      2. Edward2
        November 23, 2020

        Only technically.
        We still are paying membership fees of billions and we are obliged to follow all their laws rules regulations and directives.
        And their courts are supreme over ours.

    4. Tony Sharp
      November 23, 2020

      We left the EU on 31st January.
      Johnson’s idiocy may well drag us in to EEA association.

  9. George Brooks.
    November 23, 2020

    Churchill led us through, and out of WW2 to victory and Johnson will go down in history in leading us out of a completely dysfunctional parliament to regain our sovereignty and escape the dictatorship of the EU.

    A very close shave and the generations to come will be truly grateful as we have been since 1945

    1. Fred H
      November 23, 2020

      really? – – I’m not holding my breath.

    2. NickC
      November 23, 2020

      George B, Even if Boris Johnson does “lead us” (actually it’s us doing the leading) out of the EU, he will go down in history as the PM who jumped on the globalist bandwagon, worshipped the CAGW religion, impoverished us peasants, and turned the UK into a socialist police state.

      1. Lynn Atkinson
        November 23, 2020

        Not for long Nick. Note they are ‘giving us Christmas’ because they believe we will take it anyway. Can you see the next step?

    3. Dennis
      November 23, 2020

      The UK’s victory in 1945 was engineerd mainly by Russia – perhaps we should ask Russia to help us get really out of the EU.

  10. Richard1
    November 23, 2020

    There are two intellectually honest responses to this from continuity remain types.

    1). Thank You sir John, we would happily agree to all of this. The EU is a club of friends and partners and you need to go with the flow. We should join the euro also, to take full advantage of the single market and to support EU political integration. The benefits far out weigh the costs; or

    2) you’re right Sir John. In retrospect we should have voted to leave.

    I don’t expect to see examples of either in response to you here.

    1. Sarah Tun
      November 23, 2020

      Too accurate; too true.

    2. Mark
      November 23, 2020

      Nailed it

    3. Mockbeggar
      November 23, 2020

      A lot of that goes on with responders to this blog.

  11. Mike Durrans
    November 23, 2020

    Thank goodness we are out- the porridge thickens!

    1. Sarah Tun
      November 23, 2020

      Agreed

    2. Lifelogic
      November 23, 2020

      Will we really be out? I suspect not – we shall shortly see. Boris (or is it Carrie Symonds) seems set to cave in.

    3. Martin in Cardiff
      November 23, 2020

      The European Union has a routine problem.

      It will find s solution, I think. It’s rather good at that.

      It is as nothing, compared to the utter mess in which the Tory UK finds itself however.

      “The euro will be dead and buried by Christmas 2012”, said a Mr. Farage.

      1. graham1946
        November 23, 2020

        It would have saved Greece, Italy and Spain a great deal of heartache had it happened with France also in straits. A single currency with so many different economies was a lunatic idea. They were all supposed to converge, but when t was apparent this would never happen they did it anyway to assist Germany in having a weaker currency than the Deutsch Mark. That’s all it was for and Germany is the only one to have really cashed in.

      2. ukretired123
        November 23, 2020

        Martin in Mega-mess Brussels deluded as usual reverse spinning and not cricket!

      3. acorn
        November 23, 2020

        If the UK was the 51st state of the USA with the current management, complete with its “COVID Recovery Group” anti-science ERG faction; you can bet it would still be complaining about paying federal taxes. Taxes that will be redistributed among the less wealthy states, so they can buy stuff from the wealthy states. Because that is how “political unions” work.

        BTAIM, number crunchers have been reworking the data for EU budget year 2019. It turns out that the UK net membership fee of 35 pence per day per citizen, pays back at circa 10 to 1; 350 pence per day.

        Sounds like a very good bet to me, which answers all JR’s questions. But, I still wouldn’t join the Euro currency. And; I wouldn’t start obsessing about the budget deficit. It will need to get bigger for the next two years at least. The Chancellor can wait for decades to get his money back in taxes when frightened savers, start spending the Treasury’s money again.

        1. Edward2
          November 25, 2020

          Marvellous thing statistics.
          We should therefore immediately offer to pay hugely increased sums into the EU.
          The 10 to one ratio of return means the UK would become amazingly wealthy.
          We could all become millionaires just by giving the EU more and more of our money.

      4. Lynn Atkinson
        November 23, 2020

        Farage was wrong (again) it was either the Euro or what did happen, Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal, France dead and buried.
        (Pity Farage was not right, it would have been less painful).

        1. bill brown
          November 25, 2020

          Lynn Atkinson,

          France Dead and buried? Kindly explain

      5. czerwonadupa
        November 23, 2020

        With 8 countries having youth unemployment from 40.8% ro 21% & the average in the EU standing at 17% for many years without a solution Meanwhile Jean-Claude Juncker & the panjandrums in Brussels were quaffing their way through the 4000 bottles of champagne they ordered for themselves.

      6. Edward2
        November 23, 2020

        Mr Farage isn’t a Conservative Party member so your quote is irrelevant.

        1. Martin in Cardiff
          November 24, 2020

          Believe me, he’s a Tory, through and through.

          1. Edward2
            November 24, 2020

            What a strange comment.
            He seems to greatly dislike the Conservatives whenever I’ve heard him comment about them.

            Do you have inside information?

  12. ukretired123
    November 23, 2020

    Why on earth would we want to support the EU when it has shown to be ineffective in helping Europe yet again big time?
    Also its very own Auditors admitted material failures in its wasteful spending. It has been a serial weakness for decades like a Ponzi scheme.

  13. Phil Gilbert
    November 23, 2020

    The proposed financial services tax would surely have seen the City become a major contributor to the EU budget and its international competitiveness crippled.

    1. Lynn Atkinson
      November 23, 2020

      +1 the ignorant unwashed of the North saved them again. Let’s hope they are grateful.

  14. turboterrier
    November 23, 2020

    What further confirmation is needed that eventually the USofE will reach its final destination that was thought about and planned from the very onset of the Common Market. It was never about markets it was always about ultimate control.

  15. ferdi
    November 23, 2020

    This situation just highlights the desire of most British citizens to run their country as they wish. No doubt most EU officials regard that as foolish but we shall see.

  16. middle ground
    November 23, 2020

    ‘They have to prepare for the December 10th meeting when unanimous agreement is needed’.
    So 27 countries come together to agree an arrangement that is good for them and good for Europe, meanwhile we sit on the sidelines hoping it helps us, with no say in the matter. Issues attaching to Hungary and Poland will be sorted out over the next couple of weeks. Contrast this with three and half years of uncertainty and we still do not know the outcome after Jan 1st. Mature governments vs living in the 19th century.

    1. Lynn Atkinson
      November 23, 2020

      We have had no Government for 47 years, it’s questionable whether we have one now. We had a Government and were enjoying unparalleled success in the 19th Century!

  17. Rob Murray
    November 23, 2020

    Agreed ‘It would be interesting to hear from those who still regret the U.K. decision to leave’ on the 4 issues Sir John has listed.

    It would also be good to be certain that internal EU problems of that sort will not adversely affect Britain’s legal position as from the end of this year.

    But in any case we cannot be completely insulated from side-effects on Britain connected with trouble within the EU. We will continue to have trade and human relations with its member states as with others, and should be free to have sovereign to sovereign agreements with them, including the dissenters.

  18. Andy
    November 23, 2020

    1. Yes – but you left.

    2. Yes and yes.

    3. The EU does not have direct tax raising powers. Unlike the Tory government – rejected by 58% of the electorate last December.

    4. The EU is much more than a trade club. As I’ve told you since 2016 the economics of Brexit – while appalling – are about the least bad thing about it. I do not doubt that, one day, members will want to create United States of Europe. But that will only be when all of the member states – and their people – are ready for it. Which is not in any of your lifetimes and probably not in mine. But if that’s what our grandkids want – good for them.

    As for Poland and Hungary – the EU should expel them for rule of law violations. Both are flirting with )authoritarianism? ed) – and that should result in automatic expulsion. Europe tried (that ed) before. It didn’t work.

    1. Fred H
      November 23, 2020

      expel them ? hilarious. that would be an answer for so many trapped in membership.

    2. Roy Grainger
      November 23, 2020

      Let’s see what the EU do. You think they’ll expel Poland and Hungary, I think they’ll pay them off with a huge bribe. Let’s see which one of us is correct (Clue: me).

    3. Mike Wilson
      November 23, 2020

      I don’t much care if tax raising powers are direct or indirect. The EU has indirect ones at the moment. But they soooooo want fiscal union and control of each nation’s budget and taxation. Tax harmony is one of the fundamental tenets of the religion.

      As for expelling countries for being authoritarian. You have to smile. The EU is the ultimate authoritarian regime. Look at referendums that have been held that did not meet with the EU’s approval. They made the Irish have it again. They changed the title of the Lisbon Treaty to get it through. Don’t make us all laugh too much.

    4. Original Richard
      November 23, 2020

      The EU bureaucrats dream of a United States of Europe disappeared when they became greedy and over expanded the number of member states.

  19. Jiminyjim
    November 23, 2020

    Thank you, Sir John, for reminding us of the threadbare ‘Remain’ arguments in 2016 and since. There was never an honest answer to the question: ‘Remain in what?’ Andy and his supporters always avoided the question.

    1. bill brown
      November 23, 2020

      Jiminyjim

      The answer was always in the ROme treaty of how long they wanted to go , so there is your answer just look it up yourself, it is not more complicated than that.

      1. Edward2
        November 25, 2020

        The Treaty didn’t talk about the Euro, 28 members, anthems, ambassadors, 5 Presidents, national budgets that have to be sent for approval , taxation powers, a central bank able to create debt, supremacy of their courts and coming soon it’s own armed forces.
        Tell us where any of that was in the fabled Traety of Rome.
        PS
        Saying just “Ever closer Union” isn’t a good enough response.

        1. bill brown
          November 25, 2020

          Edward 2

          that is actually what it means ever closer union

          1. Edward2
            November 25, 2020

            The expected reply.
            Because you know I am right.

  20. JohnK
    November 23, 2020

    The Treaty of Rome established the principle of “ever closer union”. They were not joking. The only logical destination of ever closer unity has to be unity. That is the inexorable path the EU has been taking since 1957. You cannot stop them, and if you join up, you cannot really argue against it. If you decide you do not like the principle of ever closer union, the only honourable course of action is to leave. Which we did.

  21. William Long
    November 23, 2020

    But why does this too go largely unreported?
    I am sure that the answer from those who regret us leaving the EU would have been ‘Yes’ to all four questions. However they are exactly the reasons I am very glad we have left. I have never been able to understand why anyone would want to belong to an organisation in which deceit, compromise, bullying and disregard of democratic choice are the accepted means of government. Surely some other country than England will one day decide that enough is enough, but so far there is little real sign of it happening soon.

  22. Christine
    November 23, 2020

    Poland and Hungary still have memories of suppression from being forced to be part of the USSR. They value their new-found democracy and freedom above that of being bribed by money, so I doubt they will capitulate to these bully boy tactics.

    The EU Commission is currently offering them a choice but if they don’t make the right choice then the right of veto will be rescinded and Qualified Majority Voting (QMV) introduced, which will give the power of the EU over to two largest countries Germany and France.

    Once the undemocratic EU has control of taxes, borders, defence, foreign policy and policing the nation-state becomes redundant. A dictatorship has been created and cannot be removed.

    They want the UK to join their common defence programme to give them the final piece of the plan. This must be resisted.

    1. Lynn Atkinson
      November 23, 2020

      Poland and Hungary did not value their new found democracy enough to keep out of the EU. As a result large parts of the U.K. are dominated by Poles and large parts of Poland is abandoned.
      A dual disaster, especially as we shed blood to ensure that Poland remained Polish! Then they ‘invade’ us! Some gratitude.

      1. Peter
        November 23, 2020

        Poles are fine.

        Best immigrants you could wish for. Hard working, decent folk.

      2. steve
        November 23, 2020

        Lynn

        Respectfully, I cannot agree with your sentiment concerning Polish people.

      3. Christine
        November 23, 2020

        It is no different from the Brits who emigrated to the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand for a better life. I’ve always found the Poles to be hardworking and have the same values as the indigenous British people. Within a generation, they will have blended into our culture. The Poles I know here hate the EU because they see it as oppressive, like the USSR.

        Many people in Europe think the EU is a good thing because the real aims of this corrupt organisation have been kept from them. Once they realise the freedoms they have lost expect trouble.

      4. Fred H
        November 24, 2020

        Any nation that gets pissed off by the Russians and Germans can’t be all bad!

  23. Mark B
    November 23, 2020

    Good afternoon

    What’s the betting that we will be contributing to this budget after 1st January 2021 via the overseas aid fund ?

    1. alan jutson
      November 23, 2020

      Marks

      Or yet another complicated route either still in negotiation or already signed up to.

      The devil will be in the detail, it always is.

      1. Old Salt
        November 23, 2020

        Still with no representation!

  24. Peter VAN LEEUWEN
    November 23, 2020

    As a foreigner, I think that the EU, with a UK still in it, would not have been able to decide on the recovery fund, next generation EU nor the green deal. Which makes me quite content. So thank you for exiting. There will always be some trade and in due time, some good relations as well, once the hype of Brexit will have died down. The idea that the EU was/is only a trading arrangement, a typical British mistake, was never a perception of the Netherlands nor of the otherfounding fathers, not even at the time of the 1957 Treaty of Rome.

    1. Sharon
      November 23, 2020

      It’s interesting what you say. My few European friends were all leavers too, some were able to vote, some not to, but all were really pleased that the vote went for leaving.

      And I know others who have European family members who say they are envious of us leaving/left.

      1. Peter van LEEUWEN
        November 25, 2020

        @Sharon: We all tend to have friends who think a bit like us, e.g. I have no American friends who liked Trump.
        As a europhile I’m biased, just like this website is biased in a eurosceptic sense. I believe that the UK never fitted well in the EU, and also believe most British do not understand the EU nor the European idea. In such a case it is better to be outside.

    2. SM
      November 23, 2020

      As I’m sure you are aware, Peter, the notion that the Common Market was simply a trading team was a deliberate lie that was fed to the UK by Edward Heath, as he indeed admitted in a fascinating BBC interview filmed many years ago but only broadcast about 4 years ago.

    3. Fred H
      November 23, 2020

      well of course the Dutch wanted to join, rather than have to hope the UK would rescue you and the others yet again – next time.

    4. agricola
      November 23, 2020

      Peter it was just that our relationship with Europe was sold as such from early days. It was at a time that we believed what our leaders told us. We were obviously naive enough to accept Heath and a succession of leaders statements thereafter. Once the great lie was unveiled it became a festering boil within British politics with the result you are experiencing. Perception or not didn’t the people of the Netherland vote against it, but were ignored. The Brits do not roll over so easily, which at least an older generation from the Netherlands seemed grateful for at the time. You might in time wish it were just a trading arrangement. Give it time.

      1. Peter van LEEUWEN
        November 25, 2020

        The Dutch, in large majority, are very pro EU membership. and soon enough, in March 2021, there will be general elections again and you can see it for yourself. All 13 political parties with current representation in parliament have/will have chapters on the EU in their manifesto’s. As the results are always 100% proportional, it can be easily calulated once the election results are known.

    5. Richard1
      November 23, 2020

      Yes you’re right. the EU is and always was a political project. Its central policy of the euro is likewise primarily a political construction, not an economic one. Unfortunately in the UK, with a few honourable exceptions, we have not had an honest recognition of this from the pro-EU side. Its always been along the lines of ‘all anyone wants is a more efficient common market and anyway we cant leave or it will be economic armageddon.’

      A pity there wasn’t a more honest debate about it years ago.

      But fundamentally I think you are right. Both the integrating EU and the UK will be better off with a more detached relationship. Rather as Norway and Switzerland have, although in the case of the UK with less EU political control.

      1. Peter van LEEUWEN
        November 25, 2020

        @Richard1: As most people over here, I agree that the euro was constructed for mainly political reasons. Instead of breaking up, as some wishful thinkers would have it, the euro has gradually become one of the more trusted international currencies.

    6. Lynn Atkinson
      November 23, 2020

      So why are there massive anti-EU constitutional movements in France, Germany and Italy? The U.K. did not make a ‘mistake’ thinking the EU was a trading block, the then name ‘Common Market’ was specifically designed to allow the political leaders to deny what the people would never have voted for i.e the EU as it is today.

      1. K Jig
        November 25, 2020

        Well said!

      2. Peter van LEEUWEN
        November 25, 2020

        @Lynn Atkinson: People who actually read the 1957 Treaty of Rome, like e.g. Mr Redwood I think, realised that there was far more ambition in this treaty.
        “Massive” as in “eurosceptic minorities” ? Try and study the data instead of reading UK headlines please.

        1. Edward2
          November 25, 2020

          There were hinted ambitions.
          But that treaty from back in 1975….no one would have predicted a United States of Europe by 2025.
          Is that what ever closer union meant?
          At the time we were told it meant continual improvements in mutually beneficial trading relationships.

    7. Timaction
      November 23, 2020

      Indeed. We have been lied to by all of our Governments before and during membership. That’s why UKIP told the people the truth. Once true intentions were known we voted to leave! Simples. Why would we want to remain in your dictatorship.

      1. Lynn Atkinson
        November 23, 2020

        Enoch told you the truth! But the ambition of the ‘Common Market’ was so incredible that nobody believed him. That mistake has cost us much.

        1. Martin in Cardiff
          November 24, 2020

          He made disgraceful, alarmist predictions which have never materialised.

          He was spouting vicious falsehoods therefore.

          1. Edward2
            November 24, 2020

            You logic that because he said certain bad things about one subject he must therefore be wrong about all other things is obviously faulty.

    8. Edward2
      November 23, 2020

      You obviously didn’t have a Prime Minister back in 1975 who totally failed to explain the real purpose and ambitions of the Common Market.
      In fact he denied it was anything different.
      No one mentioned 28 members, anthems, presidents, flags, currency, ambassadors, tax raising powers, part control over national budgets, a central bank and coming soon its own armed force.

      1. Lynn Atkinson
        November 23, 2020

        Enoch did.

      2. bill brown
        November 23, 2020

        Edward 2

        It was all writtne down way before then just read about it in the Rome Treaty

        1. Edward2
          November 24, 2020

          Total nonsense.
          There was nothing in the Treaty of Rome concerning the things I have listed.

    9. steve
      November 23, 2020

      PvL

      You know, I always had a regard for the Netherlands and it’s people………until I stated to read your posts.

      1. bill brown
        November 25, 2020

        Steve,

        Totally unnecessary personal and nonsense remark.
        Shame on you

  25. agricola
    November 23, 2020

    Bare in mind that their accounts have not passed audit for as long as I can recall. There is profligacy in Brussels and corruption throughout, so one is hardly encouraged to want to be part of it let alone to fund it.

    In response to questions one through three, no. Question four absolutely confirms their intentions.

    Member states would be wise to retain their veto on seven year financial plans, it is all they have left in terms of democratic control. When everything the EU does is devised by unelected bureaucrats there is a paucity of democracy. Sooner or later the citizens of Europe will awake to this fact and the edifice will erode. If not we have a totalitarian neighbour.

    1. Martin in Cardiff
      November 23, 2020

      Tripe.

      The accounts have been signed off for years.

      When they have been questioned it has been on account of one or more national inaccuracies too, not those of the institutions.

  26. GilesB
    November 23, 2020

    Of more direct and immediate consequence for the UK, is the EU Commission going to run roughshod over its own rules and executively declare that a trade agreement with the UK is ‘EU only’ and does not need ratification my the Member States legislatures. This is obviously nonsense.

    Given the time left available, they need to split the agreement into two.

    For agreement, and introduction, by 1 January 2021, EU only powers relate to:

    Customs Union
    Conservation of marine biological resources (a part of fisheries policy)
    Establishing rules for the effective functioning of the Internal Market
    European Monetary Union
    Common Commercial Policy

    For future discussion, NOT provisional implementation, after 1 January 2021, Member States have reserved competencies on:

    Foreign Policy
    Internal Market
    Social Policy
    Economic social and territorial cohesion
    Public health
    Agriculture and fisheries
    Environment
    Transport
    Consumer protection
    Area of Freedom, Security and Justice
    Energy
    Trans-European networks

    Otherwise we are ensnared in negotiations, and uncertainty, forever.

    We need a clean break. A fresh start. And then negotiations that include Member State legislatures and politicians. Not just technocrats spinning red tape.

    If the EU Commission tries to corrupt their own rules. can we ask Poland, or another friend, to take it to the CJEU? Although they would doubtless somehow ‘interpret’ the rules in the way which, in their opinion, best favours ever closer union.

  27. Tony Sharp
    November 23, 2020

    Sir John,
    Can some one remind me just when any party in any member state ran on these proposals to be elected to their respective governments to have a democratic mandate to implement these policies?

  28. Lifelogic
    November 23, 2020

    All the discussion on the BBC and with the Health Sectretary & politicians is on “the urgent need for the roll out of the vaccine”. But we do not know yet if the risk of the vaccines excess the benefits. Expecially as the Covid is largely over and most areas already are close to or have herd immunity anyway.

    No sensible questioning of this at all. Someone tell the BBC propaganda outfit that some vaccines make sense and some do far more harm than good.

    Just as with this absurd second lock down we need a sensible analysis of the net benefits or otherwise. Alas as with the lockdown it seems we will not get this proper analysis.

    1. Sir Joe Soap
      November 23, 2020

      Sensible analysis requires real scientists. Non-laminated by governmentese.

    2. RichardM
      November 23, 2020

      Nologic your and others complete lack of understanding of viral transmission and community works is precisely why we have to have lockdown rules rather than relying on individual choice.

      1. RichardM
        November 23, 2020

        how immunity. Damned spell checker.

  29. Everhopeful
    November 23, 2020

    Yet again none of this is reported by MSM.
    We have never been informed of the EU’s integrationist agenda.
    Even now the media commentary on the Brexit negotiations assumes that we are dealing purely with a trading block.
    Which the EU definitely is not!
    And all we want to do is to become, once again, like the vast majority of countries in the world.
    Sovereign! NOT a province of a federal state!!

  30. hat man
    November 23, 2020

    ‘Tax and budgets’ – does anyone imagine that in a post-Brexit UK with its economy shredded by lockdown there won’t be huge tax rises, and cuts in health, education and social security budgets? Just to start to pay for this horror show?

    In or out of the EU, that’s what is coming up.

    And MPs’ only hope, when they’re held to account, will be to say: “Me? I didn’t vote for it”.

  31. Ed M
    November 23, 2020

    So many of the great problems of the world, at least in politics and connected with politics, are down to people panicking and being ideological, instead of staying calm and finding, practical solutions that is best for all in the long term.

  32. BJC
    November 23, 2020

    Every single power-grab obtained by the EU has been handed to them on a platter by successive European governments. To imply they were ignorant of the EU’s goals is no defence, especially when it’s clearly set out for all to see in the legally binding treaties they willingly signed. They hold the privilege of the power to prevent this fiasco, but their record suggests that they’ll sabre-rattle for a while, then surrender for the short-term advantages of a backroom deal; something that’s worth every single “sacrifice” to an EU only interested in the ultimate prize. Mr Johnson and Lord Frost would do well to remember this.

    It all reminds me of the extraordinary transfer of powers willingly granted by our prostate Parliament for the benefit of the Executive; so no, I don’t believe they regret their opposition to our decision to leave the EU, simply because they don’t understand the dangers of absolute power.

  33. NickC
    November 23, 2020

    JR, Sightly off topic – there is increasing evidence provided by the MSM (Times, Express, etc) that Boris Johnson is about to capitulate big style to the EU. Presumably that means the lower key capitulation we will actually get will be presented as a “triumph”. It is expectation management by Boris Johnson’s nudge unit.

    “Leave” means that the EU must have no more control over the UK than the UK has over the EU, or over Canada. It must be trade for trade, and not trade at the expense of any UK sovereignty. Our fish under our control; our laws under our control; UK government, not EU government; UK not any form of colony of the EU; our courts, not the ECJ; nothing in the agreement we could not offer to any other country.

    We are watching Johnson.

    1. Timaction
      November 23, 2020

      Anything else will lead to civil disobedience and the end of the Tory Party.

      1. steve
        November 23, 2020

        Timaction

        In the the minds of many the fate of the conservatives was sealed on Oct 16th..still trying to sell us out the day after the door was supposed to be firmly shut.

        That was Johnson’s last chance.

      2. Len Smith
        November 23, 2020

        I doubt it. Johnson gave away Northern Ireland this time last year and you all cheered and voted for it. You’ll do the same this time once he knuckles under on following EU rules

    2. Stred
      November 23, 2020

      You mean the Fudge Unit.

    3. Stred
      November 23, 2020

      It’s really the Fudge Unit.

      1. Stred
        November 23, 2020

        First wording was refused.

    4. steve
      November 23, 2020

      Nick C

      “…..capitulation we will actually get will be presented as a “triumph”.

      =========

      Oh you can bet your life on it Nick. He’ll resort to what he thinks is good showmanship with his pathetic attempts the Churchill stuff.

      The alarming thing is he actually believes his own guff and believes his masters who told him we’d be dumb enough to buy it, and that there would be no English revolt.

      Boy is he in for the shock of his life if so much as one french fishing vessel is allowed in our waters.

      Ceausescu springs to mind.

  34. lojolondon
    November 23, 2020

    Dear John – I think all your questions were answered earlier this year – the EU sent us a request for an extra £1 Billion, for no good reason, and we just paid it. No mention was made, and clearly the powers that be were hoping that the British public would never find out.
    So, if we were still inside the EU, clearly our leaders would once again have rolled over, paid the money, and hoped that the British public didn’t ever find out.

    1. Peter Parsons
      November 23, 2020

      Do you have any clue how such figures are agreed calculated? Clearly not from what you write.

      Firstly, contributions are based on a fixed percentage of GDP, and that process and its levels are both agreed by the elected politicians of the member states.

      Secondly, a country’s GDP is self-certified. “The EU” don’t tell the UK what the UK’s GDP is, the UK tells the EU. If the UK revises its GDP upwards, guess what happens to a contribution based on a fixed rate?

      In summary, the contribution formula was agreed by the UK government and the figure on which the contributions are based is calculated and agreed on by HM Treasury and the UK government.

      1. Edward2
        November 25, 2020

        So why did the UK government keep it so very quiet?

  35. Stred
    November 23, 2020

    OT. Johnson is reported to have decided that customers will be allowed to visit pubs unless not at all, but if they are allowed to they must have a substantial meal and can’t only have a pint or two in the garden. This is going to spoil my usual habit of not eating too much at lunchtime and having a pint with a friend. Perhaps Johnson’s last advice about losing weight has been cancelled in another u turn.
    The man is becoming a laughing stock. Can’t sensible MP’s get together and find him a job elsewhere?

  36. bill brown
    November 23, 2020

    Sir JR,

    The questions raised are so biased to your view of the EU that they are really not worth answering.

    1. Fred H
      November 23, 2020

      oh go on, help me understand, answer them.

    2. Lynn Atkinson
      November 23, 2020

      😂😂 you dare not answer, it would prove JR’s points!

    3. Edward2
      November 23, 2020

      Thats is a very negative attitude.
      Is it so difficult to answer these questions?
      The more the EU is discussed and its future debated and questions raised answered the better things will be.

      1. bill brown
        November 23, 2020

        Edward 2
        Most of it is in teh Rome treaty just read it

        1. Edward2
          November 24, 2020

          How have you jumped onto the Treaty of Rome from this?
          But I note you have dodged giving any proper reply yet again.

          Whilst demanding answers from everyone else.

          1. bill brown
            November 25, 2020

            Edward 2

            I have actaully given you an answer below on some of your less valid criticism of the EU and I also coverd you and Nick C (your brother ) on Poland/Hungary under the German heaading but received no feedback to NickCs minsunderstood argument

          2. Edward2
            November 25, 2020

            Oh well that’s sorted it then bill.

    4. steve
      November 23, 2020

      bill brown

      Bias…..hmmm. What’s your excuse ?

      1. bill brown
        November 25, 2020

        Steve,

        With you I do not need one

  37. GeorgeP
    November 23, 2020

    I have always been disgusted that there has never been an honest debate about how the EU would evolve over the years and decades to come and Britain’s place and part of it had we voted to remain. All we got from the remainers was a vague and somewhat woolly idea that voting remain was voting for the status quo, and anyone who brought up federalism has been treated as some sort of crackpot!

    1. bill brown
      November 23, 2020

      GeorgeP

      The answer is in the Rome Treaty and there has never been any secret about the ultimate objectives, so just look it up and stop making politics about something where the facts have always been available, it is a waste of time and you shuold know better

      1. Edward2
        November 25, 2020

        See my other responses to your predictable use of the usual EU line that it was all in the Treaty of Rome.

        No it wasn’t.

    2. Sharon
      November 23, 2020

      I remember a conversation between Vince Cable and Nigel Farage, on LBC. Nigel asked Vince Cable if was happy to have an EU army, later adopt the Euro, and a couple of other things and Vince replied of course he wouldn’t be.

      Nigel had the same conversation with Andrew Adonis – who replied the same. Now whilst I expect Andrew Adonis new perfectly well the direction of travel – Vince Vable seemed genuinely surprised.

      Federalisation was kept very quiet for many years, but the plan was there if you were willing to look.

      1. Fred H
        November 24, 2020

        What do Blunkett, Cable and Adonis have in common?

  38. Sea_Warrior
    November 23, 2020

    ‘They want an expanded emissions levy, a Financial Transactions levy, a Digital levy, and a couple of proposals to tax company profits.’ I don’t recall David Cameron mentioning any of this when he leaflet-bombed the country in an attempt to persuade us to vote Remain.

  39. Walt
    November 23, 2020

    Sir John,
    In answer to your questions,
    re.
    Q1, yes.
    Q2, yes to part liability, no to being happy about it.
    Q3, yes to acceptance, no to “battled” but we might have made a semblance of doing so for domestic consumption.
    Q4, yes.

    My objection to the EEC was the deception that its leaders and promoters practiced upon their electorates by presenting it merely as a Common Market when, from outset, close union was envisaged. Then, when it morphed into the EU, with Maastricht and especially Lisbon treaties, it ignored those electorates who did not want and voted against closer integration and greater powers being given to EU politicians and lawmakers.

    We can but commiserate with those of our friends in Poland and Hungary who want to exercise control of their respective countries; but their leaders and ours surrendered real control and they are caught as we were. Their choice is much as ours was: put up with what France and Germany want, or leave.

  40. ian
    November 23, 2020

    BJ will make sure the EU get some money, one way or another it might take time to see how.

  41. Geoff not Hoon
    November 23, 2020

    Sir John,
    Back in your time with Mrs Thatcher you knew the bloc was intended as more than a trading arrangement. Isnt it why she said “NO”? Time and time again Germany talks to France on taking the marriage further but France seems always to say no. It has gone on like this for so long now surely it must soon be clear that the trial marriage, if i can call it that, isnt going to work as a proper marriage. The linkage under the new budget plans has rightly caused hair to stand on the neck in Poland and Hungry because they know the numbers of legal and illegal immigrants waiting in Greece (and Turkey) that Brussels have said they will resolve for those countries. The budget is the blackmail to achieve it is it not?
    Due in part to Covi 19 the financial situation in EU countries will be clouded for a while but what is the betting new budget or not we will soon see another disgraceful treatment of a member in the way Greece was treated for example. whether such a move precipitates break up of the whole rotten lot we must wait and see.

  42. Peter Parsons
    November 23, 2020

    Proposed EU budget for 2021-27 – €1074.3 billion
    Actual EU budget for 2014-20 – €1,082.5 billion

    Yes, that’s right, the next EU budget will be smaller than the current one. No mention of that in the original article.

    The proposed budget works out at €153.5 billion per year, or about €340 per person in the EU27.

    Compare that to the UK government, who, in 2019, spent, in Euro terms, €952 billion (£845 billion) in one year on a population of just under 67 million, which works out at just over €14,200 per person.

    €340 is just 2.4% of €14,200. Decisions taken in Westminster have far more impact on UK taxpayers than anything that has ever been decided in Brussels.

    Reply The UK has just left and was one of the biggest contributors!

    1. margaret howard
      November 24, 2020

      Reply to reply

      According to a letter in the Faznet recently:

      “The British have already spent more on Brexit than 47 years of EU membership cost them!”
      ==

      1. Edward2
        November 24, 2020

        47 years of membership fees alone must be £300 billion.
        Let alone hundreds of billions in extra administrative costs arising from laws regulations directives and rules the EU created and we had to follow.
        Then the huge damages caused to industries like automotive industry, fishing, steel, ceramics, glass making, brick making, aluminium production caused by EU tariffs and energy rules.

        Interested what figures the letter writer in Faznet based that claim on.
        Perhaps you could enlighten us Margaret

        1. bill brown
          November 25, 2020

          Edward 2

          damages to the automotive indsutry, we did that ourselves we needede no help to ruin the quality of our car industry

          1. Edward2
            November 25, 2020

            Tariffs favoured automotive imports into the UK from Europe.
            It made UK exports more expensive
            And imports more competitive with UK made vehicles.
            But that was just one item I mentioned in my post.

    2. Edward2
      November 24, 2020

      You can’t compare the cost of running the EU with the costs of running all the practical things in individual member nations.
      For example the EU doesn’t have army, navy, air force and prisons (yet)

      PS
      Dont forget the ECB can just create debt by printing Euros.

    3. anon
      November 24, 2020

      If you can direct via the law how money is spent by the state administrators then you dont really need a budget.

      Anyway.
      Ever closer Union means you cannot accept any level of control by Brussels. Those inclined to leave should hold out,get opt-outs, then take the shortcut to leave.

      Time is getting short.
      Totalitarian or a democrats we are watching.

      We either exit cleanly or its patently world wide clear that democracy is a sham.
      .

  43. Roy Grainger
    November 23, 2020

    As the EU can now issue collective debt it makes perfect sense for them to also set EU-wide tax rates and fiscal policy. On a related topic, I’m amazed they allow the likes of Ireland to have low corporation taxes for example – they don’t seem that interested in a level playing field do they ?

    1. anon
      November 24, 2020

      Oh they do mind, but its a short-term cost for the EU contributing nations. The EU are using Eire and Eire are using the EU against the UK.

      Note the proposed deal details are still non-public.
      The anti-democratic establishment forces are still playing the i am a ‘Brexiteer’ dirty card trick, to keep us locked into the EU.

  44. Ed M
    November 23, 2020

    Btw, when I say ‘right’ I mean the idealogues on the right (normally further to the right).
    I’m on the right, but i believe Conservatism should be practical not ideological and when some Tories fight the green’s ideology of climate change with ideological complete denial then it just stokes the fire of the green’s ideology – and things just escalate.

    Rather, we have to accept something is wrong with our climate. It might be man made or not – or both. But we need to fight out exactly (at moment, it’s all pretty nebulous from both opposing camps). And then come to long-term about how best to deal with it whilst not affecting our economy – and through SCIENCE!

    Lastly, tragically, there’s a kind of heresy – from both the left and right idealogues – that says you can’t have both a strong economy and not take steps regarding climate change. It’s an heretical either / or. When rather, it’s more of a case of figuring things out through hard thought and then letting scientists figure it out (and quietly confident they will as they love a challenge – just look at how science has come to the rescue here with the coronavirus – luddites thought it could take 10 years to find a vaccine – just as luddites think there is no scientific solution to what’s going on with our climate in a way that doesn’t impact on our economy).

    Let’s be practical Conservatives on this as opposed to ideological ones.

  45. John Partington
    November 23, 2020

    Thank you to the 17.4 million individuals that got us out of this corrupt Ponzi club.

  46. Diane
    November 23, 2020

    Our influence had been diminished for some time. By staying in we may have maintained what we had, providing all members continued to have an equal say and not be hamstrung by Qualified Majority voting for example. The EU Commission has made no secret that it wants & is pursuing increased powers and competencies e.g. Health, and the mooted granting of future trade deals with other countries, possibly to be used as a lever to enforce compliance with their Paris climate commitments. Good guys, lower tariffs, bad guys sanctions ?? One also has to ask whether or not the sharing of debt, meant to be a one off in exceptional circumstances, has set any precedent for the future. Then there is EU Defence, not much talked about and you need to do your own research to get any inkling of what has been proposed and what has been in the pipeline for quite some time. I don’t like the idea of an EU dominated foreign policy. The issues with Hungary and Poland will be resolved I suspect & no matter one’s own feeling about those issues or countries, at the end of the day there is in their cases and in our own UK’s case a strong element of the desire to make sovereign decisions as to what actions we take & what kind of countries we want to be and in part the rejection of the one size fits all mantra. Yes we have left but in name only, still paying in & what have we paid in the past in those ‘off budget’ payments over & above our annual contributions, quite a lot !

  47. glen cullen
    November 23, 2020

    The University of Oxford, in collaboration with AstraZeneca plc are hopefully going to be very successful in producing a worldwide viable covid vaccine

    The taxpayer funds the university, its staff and its research

    Who going to make the profit ? The University, AstraZeneca or the Taxpayer

    Reply The company has agreed to supply it not for profit I believe

    1. steve
      November 23, 2020

      Glen

      AstraZeneca just issued a press statement saying they will not be taking profit from their vaccine sales in poor countries.

    2. Fred H
      November 23, 2020

      reply to reply….used in under-developed nations they will provide at non-profit.

    3. Sir Joe Soap
      November 23, 2020

      Not for profit to LDC s?

    4. Lynn Atkinson
      November 23, 2020

      I understand it is to be supplied to 3rd world countries on a not for profit basis. The rest of us will be paying through the nose to make up the foregone profit, as we do with all medication to the 3rd world.
      I understand that it will be mandatory for everyone to be vaccinated in South Africa. The first country to do so, they can do so because the vaccine is free.

      1. rose
        November 24, 2020

        This is how Trump fell foul of Big Pharma, trying to make medicine cheaper for Americans who had been paying through the nose to make up the profits lost elsewhere.

    5. glen cullen
      November 24, 2020

      When down graded from pandemic – profits as follows

      University research staff 7%
      University of oxford 25%
      AstraZeneca 68%
      Taxpayer 0%

  48. Margaret bj
    November 23, 2020

    Well done John .Truth and facts chime and needed to be told.

  49. steve
    November 23, 2020

    It’ll be entertaining to watch Germany not tolerating shenanigans from the french, the eastern nations rightly defending their borders, Italy and Greece kicking off, etc, etc.

    We on our island will enjoy a ringside seat.

    1. Fred H
      November 24, 2020

      More and more economic basket cases shored up by German manufacturing surplus…..fine if you accept closed trading – BUY GERMAN the new mantra that was the case before, but know chanted.

  50. hefner
    November 23, 2020

    1., 2., and 3.: What are MPs for if they are not able to debate and answer these questions. I would have thought the voters in their infinite wisdom would have sent as their representatives to the HoC people able to address these questions. Or do I sense a whiff of something smelling like audience manipulation? Or, more crudely, is it the hooker showing her wares to the potential customers?

    4. The second sentence of the Preamble to Treaty of Rome (25 March 1957) actually answers that question. Did you not read it?

  51. Lindsay McDougall
    November 23, 2020

    Thank goodness that we’re leaving this madhouse. Having left the EU, we should realise that the continued existence of the EU is not in our interest and use what diplomatic leverage is within our grasp to hasten its demise. Offering moral support to Hungary and Poland would be a good start.

    For centuries, it has been the foreign policy of first England then the United Kingdom to ensure that no single power dominates continental Europe. I look forward to a blog from Sir John outlining how to ensure this in a modern context.

  52. Will in Hampshire
    November 23, 2020

    Our host’s post today really does nothing more than remind us that when Leavers outvoted Remainers in 2016 it changed the direction of travel of both the United Kingdom and the European Union. Absent the determined British vote against further integration since that day, the remaining twenty-seven Member States have found a new consensus, slightly more in favour of integration than the consensus which preceded the Brexit vote. It should surprise no-one that the remaining twenty-seven are proceeding this way.

    Given all that, I can’t really see the point of answering the four questions. The European Union today is different from the one that exercised so many people in spring 2016.

  53. ChrisS
    November 23, 2020

    In the gentile world of the civil service, bullying has a completely different definition that few who have ever worked in the private sector would recognise.

    The BBC has published the summary of the Allen report on Prity Patel and even though it is written by a career civil servant, it is at least as critical of her officials in the Home Office as it is of the Home Secretary. Allen doesn’t even attempt to disguise her official’s contempt for their minister in the usual civil service code.

    Read it here and draw your own conclusions :

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55015488

  54. Polly
    November 24, 2020

    As the World Economic Forum, Davos has embraced Marxism by claiming that by 2030 “you will own nothing”, will you repudiate the World Economic Forum?

    Polly

    Reply I never supported its views

  55. Peter van LEEUWEN
    November 24, 2020

    After I made one comment, which was published, it now has disappeared, together with the two reactions on that comment.

    Is there a software glitch?

  56. Ed M
    November 24, 2020

    Btw, I was talking about the ideological views about anti climate-change in the comments (comments by people I often agree with on other issues).

    IF climate change is real then we have to be as practical about it as possible and using proper planning and science to deal with it whilst preserving economy at same time. Otherwise the greenies could ruin our economy and / or there could be some truth to climate, but which is fixable without damaging our economy – but if we don’t act as soon as possible problems and challenges like leaving the EU would be like a walk in the park in compared to the damage of climate change to the UK overall.

  57. K Jig
    November 24, 2020

    Do we trust that we won’t end up still paying in?

    After all, Mrs May promised £40 billion, without anything in return. How do we know Boris won’t capitulate?

    I will only trust if we are completely free and away from the EU. It is a bad sign that Cummings and the other Brexiteer have left, considering the role they played in the Referendum and GE and that Carrie has so much say!

Comments are closed.