So the football clubs currently in 5th, 6th, 7th and 9th place in the Premier League think they should be in a super Euro league with founders rights to stay there when they cannot currently even get into the slots to qualify for European competition next year. They think they are entitled to compete with other teams that have done well in the past but are similarly gifted a place in the star league. I find it bizarre they should think this a good idea, and even stranger that when their fans and the wider public tells them this is a very bad idea they still do not retreat.
Most people know it is wrong. It is wrong because being an elite team or an elite sporting performer needs a willingness to be regularly tested against the best to prove they are still deserving of the laurels. It is wrong because it demonstrates complacency and arrogance in equal measure. Winning decides who goes to elite tournaments, not buying a permanent place. It is wrong because the many loyal fans of these great clubs are proud of their clubs for what they achieve on tbe pitch and are ashamed by this proposal. It is wrong because it puts money before sporting values and ignores the sense of community which a team and club represent. Some of the best drama in English football comes in the FA cup when outsider teams can take on and sometimes beat the famous. The league itself is a ladder to climb for the energetic and good, and a series of privileged higher divisions which you tumble from if you lose your edge and skill. It would not be so interesting if everyone stayed put each year, the good and ambitious thwarted and the unsuccessful cushioned.
The pursuit of money by exploiting the fan base more may pose questions some owners and well paid footballers might not like asked. If clubs persist in doing things fans dislike, they might not keep all the fans. If clubs pursue too much money and spend much of it on ever higher footballer wages, they may encourage a backlash against the business model that does this. I have no problem with great footballers earning large sums because they entertain and people willingly pay to see them. I do have problems with badly run clubs running up excessive wage bills they cannot afford and pricing lower income fans out of much of the fun. How many fans would be able to afford time and money on Wednesday nights to travel to the continent to see one of these planned superleague matches? And why would they think it important if some of the best and most successful clubs of the day were kept out by the squatters rights applying to most of the clubs in this planned league? There is also the issue of how many games can a club play successfully in a season, and what can it expect of a great player who will also wish to play for his national team? Allowing players time to play for their country is a crucial part of football’s popularity which will be stretched again should this invention go ahead.
April 20, 2021
I have zero interest in football. Ban them and the playersfrom all other competitions and watch them squeal.
April 20, 2021
‘Yob-ball’, as one of my former colleagues used to call it.
April 20, 2021
+1
April 20, 2021
No one is forced to watch football or attend games
Being a “fan” is not being an owner
The reason so many people are complaining is not that it will fail, but because it will succeed,
The new super league will create a major league / minor league situation
Unless of course, fans refuse to watch on tv or attend games.
But they wont, because no one cares about doncaster and kidderminster town
The english league contains 100ish allegedly professional teams, most of them barely managing to keep the flood lights on playing games to 50 fans
In comparison there are 36 nfl teams
April 20, 2021
Dominic Johnson,
âno one cares about doncaster and kidderminster townâ
I have found that lower league fans are often far more knowledgeable than some of the herberts that now turn up at Premier League games. They are not spoon fed by TV and tabloids.
Regarding Doncaster Rovers, I will never forget their game away to Brentford in 2012/13 season. Brentford had a penalty towards the end of the match to win the match and gain automatic promotion. The Brentford captain stepped up to take the penalty but a forward on loan (from local rivals Fulham) insisted that he would take it. He missed. Doncaster then went down the other end of the pitched scored a last minute goal and sealed the victory.
Highlights still available on YouTube
April 20, 2021
Itâs for the owners of football clubs to decide what is best for their clubs. Itâs nobody elseâs business, clouding politicians. Freedom means being free to make mistakes. If they make mistakes then new owners will come along and take charge of the assets, and hopefully they will be more successful.
April 20, 2021
Money has already ruined football but I donât think professional football is something politicians should be involved in. Politicians have others important issues to resolve. Though I do appreciate comments on football can be a useful diversionary tactic and win politicians approval if a popular approach is adopted.
We went to much of the 1966 World Cup. My brother queued up and bought tickets though he was still in primary school. For the quarter final against Argentina we had to get a ticket from a tout. That cost an extra half crown on top of the ten bob face value – twelve and six total per ticket.
The first club game I attended was at Chelsea. I cannot remember the ticket price but we did buy beer and take it onto the terraces although we were underage. Getting a ticket for any game except a cup final was a matter of turning up in good time before the match. No season tickets were required and most fans did not have one. I packed in watching football when I got a Saturday job at Woolworth. My wage was thirty shillings – enough for a lot of things including live entertainment and live sport. Still short of the 32/6d needed to buy a vinyl LP though. Nowadays recorded entertainment is widely available for next to nothing but all sorts of live entertainment costs a fortune. Times change. Money pumped into football by fledgling TV companies was a shrewd move for the owners and helped bigger clubs and players – but fans pay for it all in the end.
I see lots of tourists at football matches now. Families of orientals at Old Trafford getting their photo taken as if it was Disneyland. A chap at the Emirates who spent the whole game looking at his mobile phone. Lower leagues are not so bad. Some fans prefer it. I remember speaking to a Norwich fan a few years ago who did not want to get promoted because they would lose most games in the premier league and it was not much fun to watch. In the Championship they were in their element.
That said football is a business. Various governments have been perfectly happy to allow all sorts of dodgy chancers to buy football clubs. There is now a notion of âfootball washingâ where a country with an appalling human rights records buys a football club in the expectation that the club will improve the countryâs image in the wider world.
There was, of course, Sepp Blatter and co before all that.
April 20, 2021
The clubs – players and fans – do not “think” John.
Their owners do.
Welcome to the bandwagon though.
April 20, 2021
+1
April 20, 2021
Having never watched a single football match in my life and not understanding what all the different leagues are about I can’t comment on this post only to say I do realise obscene amounts of money are involved.
April 20, 2021
You wouldn’t say that if YOU were earning such levels of income
April 20, 2021
Obscene amounts of money to be a club member and keep buying the ever changing kit for children too.
April 20, 2021
Dom, I don’t see where I said I wouldn’t like to earn that kind of money and haven’t said anyone shouldn’t. I’m just stating a fact. Most people agree footballers earn mega money. That’s all I’m saying.
April 20, 2021
I’m old enough to remember that as a small boy (eight or nine) being coached in football (‘soccer’ we called it – Association Football as distinct from Rugby Football. The ‘soc’ came from ‘Association’) by a Southampton player and, much more impressively, played cricket for Hampshire in the summer. Fancy having to earn a little extra cash watching 22 small boys running round a muddy pitch after a heavy wet leather ball. I believe at that time footballers’ incomes were limited to a maximum of ten pounds a week. As the Saints were in the third division (South) I don’t suppose he earned even that – and only during the football season.
April 20, 2021
Good morning,
Sometimes I feel as though we’ve followed Alice down the rabbit hole; statements in Parliament trying to restrict the trade of football clubs, PM chased around the country for comment and promising every action possible…. COME ON! If there’s one industry that SHOULD be governed by the laws of supply and demand and Darwinian principles, it is entertainment. Nothing better to do….really?
By way of catch-up, looking at the third party calculations for who pays into the EU budget, NET; it looks as though the EU is hiding a real BIG issue. Germany will, most likely, pay more into the EU budget than ALL the other NET payers combined. ie, Germany will, probably, account for over half the EU’s budget, after taking into account payments and reimbursements. This should scare the pants off all the smaller nations, but it probably doesn’t.
April 20, 2021
They donât care. They are not weirdly obsessed with the EU in the way you are. Unlike you they also know that, despite its faults, being in the EU is better than being out. Sold any fish yet?
April 20, 2021
Perhaps they do not care as you say but Greece under Prime Minister Tsipras gave a very good impression of the contrary when Germany’s Wolfgang SchĂ€uble was orchestrating the Euro finance minsters plans for it.
April 20, 2021
andy,
There is only one person on this blog who is “weirdly obsessed with the EU”
And it certainly isn’t Peter Wood.
April 20, 2021
Iâm weirdly obsessed with Brexit – and just what an epic, embarrassing failure it is for all of you.
Today Johnson has pledged to end the âludicrousâ trade barriers between GB and NI.
These are the same âludicrousâ trade barriers erected by Johnson and Frost, voted for by Conservatives MPs and endorsed by the minority of the electorate who vote for Tory.
Why did you vote for âludicrousâ trade barriers? I think you are mad for wanting ludicrous trade barriers. How are your fish doing?
April 20, 2021
My fish are fine thanks.
Where are all the lorry queues you predicted ?
Where are all the empty supermarket shelves you predicted?
Why did the Pound not crash as you predicted?
The trade barriers you talk of are created by over zealous EU officials making unnecessary checks on goods plainly going only into Northern Ireland.
April 20, 2021
life goes on much as before, pandemic on the run in UK thanks largely to wonderful British scientists and wonderful rollout. That can’t be said across the continent of Europe. I expected to mildly starve, plant potatoes on my lawn, eat only pasta and sandwiches, while watching my hard earned savings (a pension to you ) dwindle away.
The biggest subject of discussion seems to be booking places to stay, eat, holidays and how to visit our tragic over-channel neighbours who are fighting over 50,000 doses of a condemned vaccine which we have used over 20m. Looks like Germany is having to keep the nightmare (sorry dream) EU together by baling out the other 26….
April 20, 2021
where are the shortages of prescription drugs?
April 20, 2021
Andy and others predicted those things in the event of your getting your fixatedly craved-for No Deal.
Mercifully that did not happen.
You have the next closest thing however, so be reasonable, and rejoice.
April 20, 2021
No he didn’t MiC
He gave us repeated warnings of doom for whatever deal was the final outcome of any brexit deal.
What is it with you extreme leftists and revisionism ?
April 20, 2021
Indeed I have no problem with this entertainment industry organising itself. No reason why these clubs cannot have two teams and compete in both European and UK leagues. Surely the fans get a say in deciding what to support and which games to watch. It is money driving it all.
I suspect it will go ahead eventually. Almost everyone (even the sensible JR) is against it so it is probably fine. Just as everyone bar a handful (including JR who abstained) were for the climate change act or are in favour the the NHS, state monopoly healthcare, and they are really insane. But we do have an election shortly in early May!
April 20, 2021
Re your first paragraph, spot on. It was absolutely certain that we would get all sorts of squealing, pronouncements etc because there are votes in it. Restraint of trade/competition law etc that is what will decide it. I do not believe that the very sharp people at the top have not gone through the legal aspect with a fine comb.
As for the competition West Brom v Fulham etc interminably mundane lower premier league games against a regular menu of Man U/Aresenal etc against Real Madrid/Barcelona. Mmm. I think not.
Shows politicians know not much.
As for our host, what an altruistic old fashioned view. Agree about winning but totally misses the point that they buy a place at they top table through the deep pockets of the owners plus TV money. Does he really think Chelsea would be where they are without Abramovich pulling out the odd billion to buy players?
As for fans, again the elite sides will fill their stadia but 25000 at Southampton or 120,000 at the Neu Camp ?plus no comment on the extra TV audiences this will generate. Have you really thought this through?
Over the years the Champions League has been expanded, I believe due for even more, to reflect TVs (fans) demands for more elite football.
This blog makes no mention that football at elite level has moved on from âfans with a pie at halfâ time to be massive world wide franchises. This move is just a natural progression.
April 20, 2021
Nig1,
âAs for the competition West Brom v Fulham etc interminably mundane lower premier league games against a regular menu of Man U/Aresenal etc against Real Madrid/Barcelona. Mmm. I think not.â
It might seem that way, but most who attend matches know that the best games often involve unfashionable teams, while meetings between âbigâ clubs are no guarantee of entertainment.
I do realise your approach might appeal to glory hunters and armchair fans but I am not sure how long that would last.
Reply Is that the same Fulham that drew 1-1 with Euro elite Arsenal on Sunday?
April 20, 2021
Ask umpteen millions of Chinese tv fans for instance or the rest of
Amazon Prime or whichever net work provides the coverage. A wonderfully naive point of view that those fans who attend have more value to massive franchises than a global tv audience.
However loyal, your business case has been out of the window for years. Fulham as a brand against Arsenal. Mmm I think not.
April 20, 2021
reply to reply…so will the ESL want Fulham from the Championship (stupid league name) to join them after the first season?
April 20, 2021
Promotion and Relegation (P and L) leagues are a British invention adopted by Europe. Nearly all North American major sports are franchise operations with no P and L. Most run with salary caps and revenue sharing. Some leagues are a single business and actually contract the players directly not the teams. UK Premier league soccer teams that get relegated have their business model destroyed with a last minute goal.
Trying to get a bank loan is risky for the bank when a customers income stream can disappear over night. As UK fishermen with annual catch quotas are finding when they want a twenty year mortgage to buy a boat.
April 20, 2021
With any new business, if the market supports it, it will succeed. If not, it will fail.
Should the “big six” be prevented from trying ?
Personally, I do not support one of the big six … and I never will.
April 20, 2021
I do not follow football, have never played it and am not a fan. I suspect fans have lttle financial influence on the direction of a particular club as their contribution is miniscule. The media finance football, so if you wish to control the way in which the game is presented they are the ones you must influence. To a vast number of fans it is the opiate they depend on and it is largely the media who are the dealers. Apply the desired pressure on the media if you want a specific outcome.
April 20, 2021
Well the fans (and advertisements to them), shirt sales etc. surely fund nearly all of it? They surely have considerable say.
There is only one boss. The customer. And he can fire everybody in the company from the chairman on down, simply by spending his money somewhere else.
Sam Walton
Alas the above does not apply to government, crony capitalists, the NHS, the BBC, most of our schools, the police, local authorities … who can parasite without any customer approval.
As it happens my first ambition was to be a professional footballer, later to be in a rock band, then a top theoretical physicist, so I am rather a failure, though I did make my own guitar. Had to admit defeat and go and make some money instead.
April 20, 2021
The football ambition rather ruined by my going to a grammar school that forced rugby onto the pupils against their will in general. I assume because they thought rugger was more upmarket.
Excellent youtube video âThe impossibility of Windmillsâ debunking the wind, to electric, to hydrogen, compressed and stored and back to electric agenda. Insanely wasteful, land demanding and expensive. Alas government loons seem so very keen on this insane direction.
April 20, 2021
LL, we all fund it one way or another. TV companies pay mega bucks to broadcast it. They in turn aim to sell advertising slots for even greater mega bucks to show alongside it and Joe Bloggs on the 49 bus pays extra for his aftershave. Presumably this new Euro League is a way of scaling it up so that mega bucks increase to the power of ten. None of it is done for any reason other than massive profit. The next step will be to incorporate the teams involved in Lichtenstein alongside other global operators.
Football is the opiate of the masses quoted “someone”. Addicts as customers are not in control. The late dearly departed Duke told me and a few others that the country suffered from “Spectatoris”, his own created adjective. What he was really saying was that too many people watch and too few get involved. We were being commended for being involved. Football is largely spectatoris, twenty two plus officials playing and forty thousand watching, unless of course it is televised and then only the TV companies know.
As to the Rugby comparison, the same financial rules would apply if it became a 95% spectator game. Analysis of the Twickenham spectators would suggest that most had played it, were playing it, or were begining to play it. Having been there and done it makes you less likely to be tribal about it and more prone to enjoy a picnic in the car park prior to it. Playing any game seriously teaches you how to lose with good grace, so I think the Duke had a valid point.
April 20, 2021
Good morning.
I am probably going to be in a minority of one here but I disagree with our kind host and just about everyone on this issue. But why ?
Because what is the difference between these business and and any other business ? They are entitled to maximise their revenue streams and profitability and, if this is a way to do it then let them do it. If however they fail then they are going to have to reapply to play back in their respective leagues. If and when this happens they should be told to start at the very bottom of their respective pyramids and work their way back up. Simple.
The supporters will not suffer as they get to see their teams at home but, get to watch a better class of football.
Finally. I would like to ask our kind host what football team he supports and, pre-CV19, did he ever go to watch them on a regular basis ? For the record I support and watch a local football team that is not in the top flight. I have volunteered on match days to help them out and done much more besides.
April 20, 2021
Surely as the MP for Wokingham he will sensible support all the local clubs in that constituency. Football, Cricket, …. as needed, unlike David Cameron he will surely remember their names too.
April 20, 2021
Big plus one. The voice of reality.
April 20, 2021
Good points – but should the PM be wasting his time by holding a summit on the issue, for which he is, presumably, totally unprepared? There are more than enough regulators to sort this issue out. Perhaps Boris should spend time looking at the balance of payments implications of (1) allowing foreign ownership of our clubs, and (2) importing so many foreign players.
April 20, 2021
I find it amazing that Boris is even thinking of getting involved in this, what next, picking the England team ?
After yesterday and committing us to more climate change regulation which will cost us all ÂŁbillions, why try to limit half a dozen privately owned football clubs, who are trying to maximise their revenue.
Will the fans do anything about it, up to them, but remember these so called greedy Billionaires actually saved a few of the Clubs from financial ruin many years ago, and most are still losing money, and so they are not making vast profits, they are on an ego trip !
Much of the Clubs income now comes from TV revenue, take that away and many clubs would collapse !
Saw my first Chelsea and Brentford games in 1956 (we lived between both Clubs) and was a regular supporter of both for many years until I got married and moved further away.
Have not been to a live game now for about 10 years due to time/distance/cost so not even a real supporter at all, still interested in how they do as an armchair follower, but that’s all.
Does anyone really know enough about this proposed set up yet to make judgements ?
April 20, 2021
âSaw my first Chelsea and Brentford games in 1956 â
Both clubs have had their ups and downs. A moneybags owner meant Chelsea had a very good run for a while – until even richer owners arrived on the scene.
Brentford nearly got taken over by QPR in 1967 but continued in the old third and fourth division with property developers running the club badly. Then they actually got an owner who had been a fan and could run a club on a tight budget, find undiscovered young talent and sell it on at a profit. With a pub on each corner, it was one of the best days out in English football.
April 20, 2021
Peter
Indeed both clubs had money troubles back in the 1960’s, Brentford saved by the fans (my father’s ÂŁ10.00 included), who invested their own money and purchased shares knowing they would never increase in value, but it gave the Club a cash injection at the time so they could survive to fight another day, now they have moved to a brand new stadium, and may even get into the premiership (via the playoffs) under a new owner and manager.
At the same time Chelsea were saved by many of their youth team players coming good under Tommy Doc and the eventual finance of a certain Mr Bates, until purchased by the present owner.
April 20, 2021
My first pro football match watched was QPR at home to Brentford, about 1958 (I cannot remember the year any more!). In those days no subs were allowed. I think the one was introduced about then if the player was deemed unable to continue. About 30 years later 2 subs could be used from a declared 5 ‘on the bench. Clubs didn’t have many players registered, and wages were limited to max ÂŁ20 per week, that started to change 3 years later when it was abolished. I can recall QPR being weakened at the start of each season due to the forward Stuart Leary not being available due to him also playing cricket for Kent. In those days it was not unusual for players to travel by train or bus to the grounds.
April 20, 2021
@Sea_Warrior, Also he is in not position to express a view on what Foreign Corporations do on Foreign owned TV. How would the UK Government react from Foreign Domains dictating how the UK is run internally – Oh I forgot the PM has us still under the EU Commissions thumb.
Reply He is quite entitled to express a view along with the ruling bodies of English and European football about access to existing competitions, competition law, qualifications for national teams etc.
April 20, 2021
Reply to Reply
But John he is not just expressing a view, he has said he is going to try and stop it !
Yes, and probably fight it with spending taxpayers money, how about spending some his own if he is that upset about it !.
I am getting absolutely sick and tired when politicians want to spend my money on their faux rage, and then say they are doing it for my benefit.
April 20, 2021
Reply to reply. Sir John. The PM of the UK is tackling something as we all know is to just virtual signal – I don’t know what and what ever way it is viewed it is outside his sphere of control. These 6 Clubs have nothing to do with the UK, the TV they are displayed on has nothing to do with the UK – they are all foreign domiciled as such do not contribute to the UK’s welfare, education, infrastructure for which more importantly UK companies pay for. They get to free load while at the same time being outside UK jurisdiction. In reality they are just vehicles for removing wealth from the UK and with the acquiescence and support of the UK Government. The taxpayer, the sector the PM should support is just forced to enable it in even higher taxes
If the PM and the UK government would spend as much time on fixing our flawed tax system he might carry some weight on this
April 20, 2021
I expect the government’s involvement is more to do with ensuring no revenue leak and that a proper share of taxation and employment is retained within he UK.
April 20, 2021
matthu
“..flawed tax system…”
If that was the case then perhaps they should not have banned the Chelsea owner from being a UK resident, who at the time was paying a huge amount of tax into the UK coffers, who still whilst being banned as a resident of the UK still gave up his two Club hotels for use by NHS staff, completely free of charge, and produced, delivered and paid for all the staff meals in five local hospitals for a few months.
Absolutely agree the tax system is at the moment so complicated we really need to start again, as anything which has and needs 22,000 pages of explanation, is obviously not fit for purpose.
April 20, 2021
@matthu – a little bit late for that. Accept for a small token going to a handful of vendors on a match weekend, the money stream had already been removed from the UK. I cant say to tax havens as I don’t know, but given the high earnings for the Clubs and their Media outlets (TV) proportionally compared to a UK based business very little finds its way into contributing to the UK tax system.
April 20, 2021
Arsenal – owned by American billionaire Stan Kroenke.
Manchester United is largely owned by the American billionaire Glazer family.
Liverpool is owned by American company Fenway Sports.
Chelsea is owned by Russian billionaire Roman Abramovich.
Manchester City is owned by Emerati billionaire Sheikh Mansour.
Spurs is owned by Bahamas registers ENIC Group.
Inter Milan is owned by Chinese company Suning Holdings.
AC Milan is owned by American investment firm Elliott Holdings.
How do you work out that these clubs – predominately owned by Americans or other billionaires – are part of a âEuroâ elite.
Indeed this proposal is exactly what Global Britain means. It is odd the Brexitists are so against it.
Reply How absurd. Itâs a Euro elite because it wants a new Euro competition. US teams are not part of the plan.
April 20, 2021
@JR reply; +1, but with the qualification (no pun intended) – not yet, and I have no doubt the proposal is looking towards North America for a fat TV rights deal, perhaps more so than from Europe.
April 20, 2021
Andy’s point was the ownership. How many Europeans listed? None.
Just like water and gas companies, English football clubs are another asset simply sold off to the highest foreign bidder. Compare this to the German owernship model, where no one person can own more than 49% of a club. There are no German clubs who are part of this breakaway. Perhaps we can (and should) learn things from our friends across the channel.
April 20, 2021
Andy
You forgot to mention that:
Barcelona is owned by 144,000 of its fans via membership subscription.
Perhaps this is the way more Clubs should operate ?
April 20, 2021
Most countries already have domestic competitions in which those players not good enough for Europe , compete and the idea that Football is about anything other than money is worth a horse laugh. Those people most dismayed are only dismayed that they may be getting less of the pot.
There are problems but there is also the enticing prospect of the world best players being drawn by the biggest money to a global sporting gladiatorial contest. If you think of F1 , tennis , athletics , the US Franchises its not such a new idea
I am an Arsenal fan ( full disclosure …). I love the idea of an Amazon/Google Global zenith of sport but Arsenal would not be Arsenal any more. I have spent years lecturing my children about the never say die spirit of the Gunners .The history, the bust of Herbert Chapman, Malcolm MacDonald Liam Brady …TA Terry Henry …the moral inferiority of Spurs . Tricky one
N
April 20, 2021
@ Newmania – Henry’s first name is Thierry.
April 20, 2021
Really ????!!!!
Its a joke , like Joe Green the Italian composer .
April 20, 2021
Me too …..but ‘never say die’? that died many years ago.
We have been riddled by lily-livered players with a ‘why bother’ attitude for far too long.
April 20, 2021
Incidentally, I donât see what itâs got to do with government.
If six British companies want to start a new business with six European companies what is it to do with the Conservative Party?
The Conservatives job is to get out of the way and let them try. The market will decide whether or not it succeeds. (It will).
But Johnson and Dowden say they will do everything they can to stop it. Stopping business seems to be the raison d’ĂȘtre for this government.
April 20, 2021
“Stopping business seems to be the raison dâĂȘtre for this government.”
Glad you’ve finally joined the anti-lockdown side Andy. Welcome along !
April 20, 2021
Andy, agreed for once.
Premier League, UEFA & FIA are all businesses are they really worried about the fans or more their loss of influence and income?
Where was the UK Government when those American purchasers were putting UK clubs in to debt?
And it was of course the fans that would ultimately be financing that…
Wasn’t the same said about the Premier league when it was created?
April 20, 2021
On this Andy I fully agree with you â its got nothing to do with this government if private business looks for new opportunitiesâŠ..maybe its just PR, someone told Boris itâs a vote winner if he saves the premiership league a bit like Gordon Brown
I could imagine the Chinese government running their own league in a communist state, but never in the UK the land of the free and open markets â whats next Boris takes control of tennis, F1 or rugby ?
Less government please
April 20, 2021
Yesterday there was a momentous event in human progress, a powered helicopter was flown on another planet for the first time.
Yet our politicians are more concerned about private football clubs and playing with train sets than our country having so little involvement in these scientific and engineering projects to benefit our people and industries despite our past prominence in these areas.
April 20, 2021
@dixie; I have to ask, why do you think a powered helicopter flight on Mars was such a “momentous event in human progress”, all seemed rather pointless to me!
April 20, 2021
The whole Mars interest and projects are are zero value to mankind.
April 20, 2021
I’m all for it if they don’t use taxpayers money – but then again I’d question the value of the Hadron Collider ?
April 20, 2021
amazing how the concepts investigation keeps being deemed important and funding found, yet work to solve very basic humankind problems continues to force billions of people to live in appalling conditions alongside appalling future insecurity.
April 20, 2021
Unlike ground vehicles, at that distance aerial drones cannot operate by remote control but depend on a high degree of autonomous navigation. Aerial reconnaissance also covers a much larger area and can move things around more flexibly than simpler wheeled probes. Essentially this is acting as a test bed for robotic exploration of the rest of the system, especially the asteroids which we’ll probably end up relying on for a lot of materials.
April 20, 2021
@dixie; As you say, this drone can only operate within a pre-planed flight, there is nothing new in such control systems, every unmanned explorer craft uses such systems and have done for decades, the only scientific achievement was to get a drone to fly in a thin atmosphere.
My point, without direct, real time (impossible at such distance) control of such drones they are not going to advance the sort of operational missions you suggest.
This is just flag waving, to be polite, for NASA – nothing new, nothing much to see, move alone please!…
April 20, 2021
I didn’t say pre-planned flight though this was certainly the first test flight, I don’t know what else they have planned on this first mission.
But my point is that this is the first step in developing more sophisticated drones that can perform sophisticated missions independent of the real-time control which is simply not possible at these distances.
April 21, 2021
@Dixie; Try reading up on some facts not the the PR handouts! AI has already been used on Mars and other extra-terrestrial extrapolation missions, indeed it is one of the arguments against the need for further manned missions to either the Moon or further.
April 21, 2021
No need to be rude, I am not parroting PR handouts, haven’t seen any.
AI has certainly been involved in planetary missions in the past but first flight on Mars and autonomous flight control is the big step.
Or would you say the Wright brothers first flight was not momentous.
April 20, 2021
Another example of the divide and distance between the elite groups of people who run the world and ordinary people. We had the climate authoritarianism yesterday, today the grasping and greedy. This is what happens too when we prostitute our country and assets for foreign money.
April 20, 2021
+1
April 20, 2021
Having followed football all my life I have to say the game is not what it was. The Refs organised into a controlling company which refuses to explain decisions after games. The football clubs often take financial decisions based on a gamble that success matched by income is an unreasonable risk. This has taken several clubs to the brink of collapse. The pursuit of huge income sharing by PL clubs meant this risk was recognised, the cost of transfer fees and increased player wages led to parachute payments to those relegated – effectively encouraging the gamble by the owners. PL clubs are paid so much in media income that they no longer need matchday ‘turnstile’ income. The biggest damaging factor in financial risk to the clubs and reduction in owners’ profit expectations has been the soaring wage bills, mostly player wages. Irrational sums are committed to in transfer deals with high risks that the several years of player contract will become a burden that was not worth the outlay. The purchase of a player can be compared to a high cost piece of production machinery that ought to improve the business. How many businesses would invest capital and years of running cost when it is a gamble that the machine will work well for half a year or 4 years -an outcome with zero guarantee and great difficulty in selling on without enormous loss.
The controlling authorities, FIFA, EUFA, FA, PL, PGMOL etc each have come in for criticism at various stages concerning the ‘good of the game’ where changing rules have led to the unsavoury situations covered in the media daily.
April 20, 2021
These clubs should have just announced that the formation of the new league will save such and such an amount of CO2 and is a contribution to net zero, and anyone against it is a climate denier. If that didnât do the trick they should have said it will promote diversity and thought up some spurious reason why that might be the case. They need a new PR agency.
April 20, 2021
Spot On
April 20, 2021
Rugby is going through the same process. At elite level it only exists through the deep.pockets of the club owners. They are looking to protect that by creating a âclosedâ league. As employers of the elite players they are also pushing back against the previously unfettered access the national teams had.
This is very similar to what is happening in football but strangely no comment from you.
Your romantic views also completely ignores the situation for instance in Spain where effectively bankrupt clubs are desperate to wrestle media rights etc away from the authorities.
As for English football it has been âbankruptâ for years effectively keeping going through the tax authorities allowing interminable time to pay extensions, ignoring the insolvent trading rules etc.
Overall this is a stale product living in the past. If this triggers a change to the model so much the better.
An in other news an NHS trust has pleaded guilty resulting in an unlimited fine, still to be assessed.
So one part of the public sector fines another that is short of money anyway resulting in a bigger debt or a reduction in services. The only people that will be âfinedâ are the people in the area who will suffer.
Has anyone thought through this lunacy?
April 20, 2021
The success or otherwise of this idea is in the hands of the fans.
They can ignore the home games of this super league and not watch any of the matches on television. With empty stadia and falling ratings it won’t last long.
As membership of this league can’t be changed by competition it will be very boring, as results will cease to matter.
April 20, 2021
Should SKY and/or BT Sport decide not to bid for the ESL matches the whole project will crash and burn.
Would Amazon bid enough? Will the ‘dish/internet’ watchers pay another sum to add to their cost for Sky/BT etc already? Would they take ESL and give up say BT Sport? Surely a threat is looming?
April 20, 2021
Let then go, if that is what they want to do, the FA and UEFA are also entitled to expel such clubs from their competitions if they wish, and if they do surely it will allow lower teams to move up within the Leagues, also meaning some currently non-League teams will be able to enter. But why politicians and the PM are getting involved, just goes to show how populist and ‘woke’ politics has become.
If the PM & the SOS at DCMS actually wants to do something to save the game, they needs to do something about TV broadcast rights, far more damage has been done to the grass roots by the subscription broadcast model than will be done by a few clubs playing in an alternate competition that is not likely to replace the existing formate any time soon. Think in terms of how Formula 1, the US Indycar, and now Formula E co-exist, often with the same driver pool and even teams.
April 20, 2021
Seems to me this govt, as is our host, are using this Football issue to bury the increasingly bad news about how woke our PM is becoming with regards CO2 emissions, now targeting aviation and shipping – that from the govt of a island nations – 78% cut in carbon emissions now by 2035, MADNESS, I’m all for targets yes, remotely achievable targets. Boris will have to go, or the bed pillows will…
April 20, 2021
+1
April 20, 2021
Absolutely Jerry with you 100% on that.
April 20, 2021
For a few seconds after hearing that Johnson was pontificating on this – as though it has ANYTHING to do with government- I was quite astonished. Then I remembered we have descended into some weird daily farce, so I just shrugged.
Seriously, Mr. Redwood, why did you feel the need to comment on this? Other than in a personal capacity (are you a fan?), what has this to do with John Redwood, Member of Parliament?
Reply There are issues of competition, tax residence, qualification for national teams, regulation of the sport etc which may involve government. Now there is to be a government Inquiry into football I may need to argue for less government involvement.
April 20, 2021
In cricket, England Test authorities get first pick over counties for their players. Both Test and County authorities live with players earning much bigger sums from IPL short season cricket. The former hardly get any tv coverage, whereas SKY see the viewer attraction of limited over games with a result certain.
April 20, 2021
SirJ please ”argue for less government involvement”
April 20, 2021
Football is too important to be left to club owners to decide about.
The nakedly self-serving attempt by the Super League proponents to secure in perpetuity a place amongst the elite whilst excluding future claimants who then possess the qualifying attributes supposedly now exhibited by those clubs is truly shameful exploitation of oligopolistic power.
The Competition and Markets Authority ought to intervene and the people’s Blue Boris is quite right to interest himself in this matter, given the cultural significance of football.
April 20, 2021
@formula57; Your argument missed its bus by about 30 years! I recall many people being concerned about much the same issues when the then new British Premier League was proposed, especially when it came to transfer fees, players wages and TV rights. The ink is hardly dry on the Press Release announcing this proposed Super League yet some are commenting as if the full business plan and rule book had been published.
I also question the assertion by some that football has any great cultural significance, above any of the other traditional sports such as ruby, golf, tennis -highly popular perhaps (but that can be very geographical) hence the highly populist interventions by politicos…
April 20, 2021
@ jerry – the point for the Competition Authority is not thirty year old concerns rather the rigging of the system to ensure participation in perpetuity for Super League founders.
April 21, 2021
@formula57; Fine, if needs be, but only once the business plans and rule book have been made public.
I also question your assertion that there was no issue for the Competition Authority 30 years ago, UK top-flight football all but disappeared from FTA TV, live games were on pay-TV with only limited highlights elsewhere.
April 20, 2021
It’s not so unusual for an elite group to want to hang onto positions they have attained even when they have become less than the best. It is though a perversion of human nature to insist on it.
Having attained a status people want to retain it, even when past their best, leaving them living off their fan base.
Too many ex-politicians think this way – just because they held high office they imagine the public are just waiting to hear any gems they have to offer. Once famous performers are probably worse, thinking they are important for some acting roles, and that they have the right to lecture everyone.
That anyone liestens to these 2 groups shows how elitism has it’s own values not related to reality.
When values are judged on acclaim, attractiveness and PR rather than achievement, as happens so often on this planet, then the future looks ever more dishonest.
April 20, 2021
Does it matter – to come back to the saying “it’s the economy -stupid!”
Primarily these all have nothing to do with the UK, they are foreign owned clubs paying tax in far flung domains and wages to people domiciled abroad. They have always been involved in fleecing the UK fan at the expense of the UK game. Even now the TV shown games are only available from foreign domiciled and foreign taxpaying companies, or in other words the contribute little to the UK as a Society. Let them get on with it, the supporters will find alternative home grown clubs. That is the Point these supporters have a choice.
Why with the Country in such a State is the PM poking his nose into what Foreign Corporations are up to, I for one would like to see him devote the same attention to the actual UK economy and support UK Industry to the same extent. This is the man that destroyed the Fishing Industry with false promises, that promised we would leave the EU, would support the whole of the UK (including NI) and now he is expressing concerns about Foreign Corporations!
Reply They may be foreign owned but they are UK brands making their reputation out of the English League and cup competitions
April 20, 2021
I don’t understand why this is a problem, the ground is big enough to run two teams a local team and a Super League team, they are away every other week, the training ground and local players of talent might actually get a game if all of the imported talent is in their own league but they’d still all practice together get the benefit, the locals could get cheaper tickets on team 2 games and be able to attend local more often.
Why is the government so concerned about football, does it control snooker and cricket?
Reply The government has ben involved in this by the football authorities. IT would get involved with other sports if needed or asked.
April 20, 2021
A lot of hysteria over this. These clubs are effectively saying that they will remain in their domestic leagues and play in their new competition instead of the UEFA Champions League. You cannot stop clubs from playing ‘friendlies’ against the opponents of their choice, and banning their players from International football makes no sense because there is no rule that a countries players have to play in their domestic league. The new competition is only ‘elite’ as long as people perceive it that way, and if the clubs do badly domestically due to fielding weakened sides (which is a common practice at the moment) that will not be the case. Certainly nothing whatsoever to do with the Government. What must not happen is an attempt to bribe the clubs by offering a larger slice of the TV revenue, allowing them to REALLY cut off competition by luring all the best players with astronomical wages.
April 20, 2021
Buying British as often said to be the root out of some of our biggest challenges. However, there is a subtle difference between having what appears to be a UK name and contributing to the UK economy (the point of buying British) and just using the name to off shore a profit/tax base.
So we have 6 foreign owned UK football teams whos primary source of income is from foreign owned media corporations. Is that any different to the situation of BA, Pilkington Glass, Boots the Chemist, Walls ice-cream, HP Source, Colman’s Mustard – its an endless list. The commonality is they all earn their profits in the UK and pay taxes(i.e., Contribute to the wealth fare, security and infrastructure) of other Domains. Or in other words this and previous Governments have legitimised ripping off the UK taxpayer.
Its Great the UK is free trading, but it is nonsense that we have massive punitive taxes that cripple indigenous businesses and the UK taxpayer, so as other that don’t contribute can profit from those that do.
This Government is just band wagon ‘virtual signalling’. Repair the tax system, make it equal for all and our economy will work. Keep this up and they will consign us all to poverty.
April 20, 2021
I would have no objection to a “super league” European competition if there was promotion and relegation.
Without that crucial element, it is nothing more than a closed shop designed to enrich the participants and make them even wealthier compared with their rivals in domestic competitions. That is not a level playing field. Those that criticise must bear in mind the huge financial opportunities that lie in the Far East and the Indian sub-continent. The Super League would be a huge success there.
Similarly the threats to ban the six UK teams from the Premier League is an empty one. The PL’s lucrative TV deal could not survive the loss of these clubs and the financial loss would cascade down to the lower divisions that depend on crumbs from the Premier League table.
Then we have the players. They are contracted to their employers and would have to play in whatever competition their employer decides to enter. Banning them from representing their countries and the World Cup is grossly unfair and must be open to legal challenge.
On the wider point, the UK football authorities and successive Governments should never have allowed the sale of so many Premiership clubs to overseas billionaires, although they have not been as damaging to the game as the US business interests that have come in and saddled their club with huge debt that has to be serviced.
April 20, 2021
I should immediately declare an interest; I couldn’t give a tinker’s cuss for football or for it’s organisations but I am bemused by many of the comments here referring to football clubs as businesses.
Genuine businesses, whether large corporations or sole traders, have obligations and liabilities under Employment, pension and Tax Laws. Do football clubs?
I understand that in the event of insolvency, for example, HMRC is at the bottom of the list of creditors. Is this true?
Just because a football club is exposed to market forces does not make it a business. It is entirely reasonable for a sports organisation to protect and enhance it’s market and future revenue prospects but the same can be said of the FA and UEFA etc. The market can work both ways and sports organisations alienate their fan base at their peril.
April 20, 2021
HMRC is not at the bottom, but comes behind what are called “football creditors” (players, any payments outstanding to other clubs e.g. tranfer fees). The football creditors rule is there for competition integrity (to stop a club signing players for, say ÂŁ100 million in transfer fees, going bankrupt, then getting away with having to pay only ÂŁ1 million of the ÂŁ100 million to the other clubs involved).
The reality is that most of the fan base for this new idea is not UK-based, it is the TV audience in places like North America and Asia.
April 20, 2021
What is proposed is an interesting hydbrid of USA and European sports organisation. All major USA sports operated in closed leagues with no relegation and there is nothing per se wrong with that, but in order to maintain some level of competitiveness they operate a draft system where the lowest-placed teams get first choice of the best new players the following year. The ESL proposals miss out that vital part – it is simply a closed league where the richest couple of teams would win every single year by buying the best players (like the current Spanish league).
I don’t think the government need to legislate to prevent this. First the Premier League should expel them. Secondly the government should exclude them from the points-based scheme which allows them to get work permits for non-UK players and managers. At that point we’d see why these owners really want to move to a USA-based structure, they’d relocate the “franchises” to Los Angeles, or Beijing.
April 20, 2021
The government should not get involved with how football club owners want to manage and organise the business of football. This is not the job of government.
State control doesnât work . It is a recipe for decline and mis-management. We should leave football to the free market, just like any other business â and let companies and their customers work out what the product should look like.
April 20, 2021
Why is it OK for 22 men to run around a football pitch hugging and kissing but a widow has to sit alone at a funeral with no family comfort?
Society has lost its moral compass.
April 20, 2021
Agreed, why did it have to be like that?
April 20, 2021
A lot of football fans have lost family and friends from covid as well. Football is far more than just ‘entertainment’ to them but a passion that helps them cope with sadness in their lives.
So have empathy for the widow. But that doesn’t mean people can’t react strongly to something they feel strongly about – i.e. their love of football as they’ve know it, and probably since they were young boys (and girls).
April 20, 2021
And just as working class people should have respect for middle class people who love cricket and rugby so the middle classes should have respect for the working classes who love football (the social divide isn’t so black-and-white as I make it out to be, I mean I’m middle class and I LOVE football AND cricket and rugby – but there is still a social divide to a degree).
April 20, 2021
I’m sure lots of people do love football but as soon as they take the knee it’s the off switch in our house.
April 20, 2021
You turn off for a pointless 10 secs of dirty kness? OMG.
April 20, 2021
Are both subject to the same frequent testing regimes?
If so, they should be permitted similar behaviour. If not, then perhaps there is a good reason for the difference.
April 20, 2021
What kind of communist rants and raves about telling private enterprise how to run their organisations. Maybe it’s the word “Europe” that has set him off. Everything with the word “Europe” in it must be bad, by definition.
April 20, 2021
âSo the football clubs currently in 5th, 6th, 7th and 9th place in the Premier League think they should be in a super Euro league with foundersâ rights to stay there when they cannot currently even get into the slots to qualify for European competition next year.â
A very good point particularly when it is borne in mind that half the teams in the top four UK divisions have been in the first division at some point in their history.
The UK government are getting involved because such a European super league would adversely affect the earnings of the Premier League â a league whose popularity is down to providing popular entertainment through its exciting matches and most importantly unpredictability in match results.
I have no objection to a European super league but only provided that it is not a fixed group of teams without relegation to their national countries top division. Promotion and relegation adds incentive and excitement to the games as well as sense of fairness.
I would not like to see the US system of fixed teams, wage caps, reverse drafts and all the other regulatory paraphernalia necessary to provide an entertaining spectacle.
April 20, 2021
I am now sure the world has gone mad.
This morning, the Education Secretary said that the new Euro Super League has been dreamed up by money men and that it must be stopped. He then goes on to say that the government could legislate and put in place sanctions to stop it. We used to be the party of business and never thought profits or success were bad things. It is profits from business that pay for all the socialist style policies the government are keen to implement.
This lunacy is not restricted to Conservatives though. The shadow Sports Secretary said she was angry and sad to hear about the plans…. Angry? Really. People seem to get upset and angry too easily these days.
I see the Leader of The Opposition is against it too.
The world has gone mad.
April 20, 2021
”fiddle while Rome is burning”
April 20, 2021
The objections from UK supporters are based on the parasitical nature of the proposal. The clubs and teams they support are being exploited to profit their billionaire owners in a new league with similarities to US sports (NFL, baseball, basket ball) where the teams are in a closed shop environment with no promotion or relegation. The solution for the billionaires, if they want their very own exclusive, closed shop league is for them to create new teams with new names and new players all entirely separate from the existing league systems and see how they get on. That would introduce an element of competition between the established ruling authorities (FA, EUEFA) and the proposed super league but leave the established order in place. While theoretically possible, such an outcome would be unlikely to occur, let alone succeed, as it would require a whole new order of risk capital to get floated. Which is why the billionaires involved want the free lunch of using the existing teams. Johnson is on to it because he thinks there may be votes in it – people vs the billionaires!
April 20, 2021
I have some minor concerns,
(i) Whether this gives a general signal to entitlement and restricted class mobility
(ii) Whether the BBC, under the TV license model, will place astronomical bids for live or highlights reporting
(iii) Whether access to ‘culture’ is further limited
(iv) Any knock on effects to the ability of other teams to play active community roles.
April 20, 2021
Well done, Sir John for taking the side of the working class man, country, and that there is more to football than a purely money-making, spectator sport such as the importance of effort and merit in success and of football culture and football fan culture going back a long time – not forgetting that football overall – as opposed to those at the very top – could haemorrhage financially, thus less revenue to the inland revenue from football (I think, don’t know details of this).
April 20, 2021
For those who don’t get the magic of football – just look at the best goals of the great Maradona and also ‘Maradona life is life’ on YouTube. And then add to that the great skill of football and the culture of local football clubs which men have grown up with since boys then you might understand better why people feel so strongly against the European Super League.
April 20, 2021
The response of the Tories to the proposed sale of ARM Holdings. possibly the most important microchip design company in the world, to foreigners was âFrom a Government perspective, the UK is a free trading nation.â A spokesman said the deal was a commercial matter. In what sense is the sale of a football club to foreigners not other than a commercial matter of far less significance than the sale of of a major high technology business?
The government must decide just what is for sale to the highest bidder and what is not and why. e.g. Should a financial spiv been allowed to take over a group of care homes in order to extract he capital value resulting in the ejection of those in care? Are financial spivs a benefit to humanity?
April 20, 2021
Quite so. We are faced with hypocricy all round. Our nation has been prostituted, our assets sold off without a regret. The City gets a big rake-off and the sales are encouraged and defended. All part of ‘Open for Business’.
But when ‘Boris’ sees there may be some popularity to be gained from taking the side of ‘the ordinary person’ he jumps at the chance. He of course is not the only one.
April 20, 2021
The loss of ARM was a huge loss – disaster – to the High Tech / Digital Sector and so to our economy overall (not for the simplistic reason of what it was worth financially but how it would have powered the development of new High Tech / Digital companies around it and inspired the development of such new companies in general. And a no brainer as I kept banging on here at the time. But what made it doubly bad was how the government tried to pass it off as a great success. Either complete unscrupulousness or ignorance and/or both.
But let’s not focus too much on the past – except to learn from lessons. The government has to really focus on helping entrepreneurs and companies in general in this sector in the UK become the European Silicon Valley of the future.
April 20, 2021
Let the market decide – if enough people watch it then it will be a success and the clubs will become even more wealthy to buy more overpriced players. When they come in to buy players at other clubs the price will be inflated so some of the money will be recycled.
If the paying public genuinely finds it distasteful then they will not watch – it will fail.
Either way the subject does not need political intervention. As in much of life.
April 20, 2021
Sorry but this is a completely simplistic answer – an answer based on ideological capitalism – as opposed to appreciating the limitations and flaws of capitalism (ideological capitalism actually damages capitalism overall in the long-term). I can choose whether to buy a Mars bar or a Twix. But when a seismic change happens at the top of football, ordinary football fans don’t have any say in that. They’re stuck with what happens. They’ll carry on watching football but not because they love what’s been introduced but simply because they have no choice.
The only people who gain from this are the money men at the top. The money men at the middle to bottom levels all lose out. And overall, less money to the inland revenue (besides all the other losses – cultural and so on).
April 20, 2021
Iâm no football fan but I donât see why anyone approaching it objectively would see a problem here. From what Iâve heard this new super league is a weekday addition to the existing programme of matches. Football is part of the entertainment industry and this is just additional entertainment. Why is this bad ? The real reason is because itâs a challenge to the existing monopoly operated by the FA, Fifa, Uefa and who knows what other acronyms containing the letter F. Who cares on what basis the teams are chosen ? This is just entertainment. If sufficient viewers donât want to watch it, the new league will fail. So what ?
John, youâve been a strident opponent to monopolies in the past and been part of a government that put policies in place to privatise them and split them up. Why are you arguing in favour of monopolies here ?
April 20, 2021
According to the MsM – Boris Johnson vows to drop ‘legislative bomb’ to stop football’s European Super League. More waste of time ‘virtual signalling’ Foreign owned teams can set up in any Stadium around the Globe and still call them-selves Manchester United or whatever. Boris doesn’t own the name and he has no jurisdiction over foreign based teams.
The point missed from this virtual signaling is the ‘fans’ those that turn out on a match day are not the revenue stream, its the Media Companies that create the cash flow and they like the clubs themselves are no longer part of the UK.
Time to move on and the Government to start supporting UK based industry and corporation and stop making them the TAX fodder that funds the non contributing interlopers
April 20, 2021
Although I feel the horse has bolted. If the Government was serious with this Virtual Signaling they should first look at the what’s and whys.
UK Football exists from the vast revenue stream gained from TV exposure. The main outlets in the UK are Sky and Virgin TV. Sky TV owner is Comcast of the USA, Virgin Media is Liberty Global of the USA. So they like the Football Clubs are out of reach to this Government. (and he is not going to upset Joe Biden by penalising US firms)
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with foreign ownership other than it is the UK fan and the UK taxpayer that compared to the same programs broadcast in other areas were it is generally by law ‘free to air’ or at minimal cost, has to pay and pay twice.
There is always a lot of talk about ‘level playing fields’. But as a result of the UK Governments policies on tax etc the UK citizen has to pay more and fund everyone’s else’s enjoyment. The Government does have it in its power to dictate that the UK consumer should be treated as all other consumers for the same product around the World.
This Super League will get of the ground and run and the UK as it stands will finance it for the rest of the World.
April 20, 2021
This feels like a dead cat operation to deflect attention from the financial and lobbying shinanegans, civil service moral bankruptcy and an over-ambitious PM.
April 20, 2021
+1
April 20, 2021
To be honest I would have thought that as an MP our host has more important things to think about than football.
April 21, 2021
One may or may not like what these football clubs were thinking of doing but in a free country it is no business of government and government should not be interfering in people’s footballing fixture arrangements.