Nicola Sturgeon says if the PM and U.K. Parliament stick to their view there should be no Independence Referendum this Parliament we will be defying the wishes and will of the Scottish people. That simply is not true. In the constituency vote the SNP and Greens combined vote share was 49% meaning 51% voted for parties in favour of the Union. The Green and SNP vote share in the Regional section was 48.4%, with Alba adding another 1.7%. So overall averaging both votes supporters of the Ā Union and no referendum marginally held the majority.
Opinion polls suggest a slightly Ā larger majority for the Union in polls about a referendum vote. This is reflected in Sturgeonās wish to delay the Independence vote she wants, hoping the case for independence will sway more Ā people. Her only criterion for wanting a ballot is going to be polls that imply a good chance of winning.
I support the Ā PMās decision to oppose another vote. He can do so fairly on Sturgeonās own argument that we should take the votes cast last Thursday as the guide.He can do so because the last referendum was agreed by all parties at the time to be a once in a generation vote. He can do so on the argument that such referendums are disruptive so should only be accepted after a long interval of calm Ā from constitutional upheaval.He can do so because there is a big majority for the Ā Union in the U.K. Parliament.
May 10, 2021
And the PM needs to sort out the problem of devolved governments giving the vote to children. The practise must be ended, across the UK.
P.S. I gather that the Queen’s Speech will be tightening-up electoral security: good. ID verification must be added to our security mix.
May 10, 2021
Indeed let them vote at about age 25 when they are paying taxes and should then have some say in how their taxes are spent perhaps?
Not all Scot voting SNP or Green actually want “independence” (under the EU) many just this voting that way may extract even more money and concessions out of the English.
May 10, 2021
@LL; “Indeed let them vote at about age 25 when they are paying taxes “
Excerpt even children pay (indirect) taxes, when they spend their casual earnings (from mowing lawns or what ever) on their hobbies etc. Some children pay income tax.
May 10, 2021
By law kids shouldn’t be doing any paid work.
(Not the way I think it should be btw)
May 11, 2021
Indeed the many jobs I did as a child were very good experience.
May 10, 2021
These youngsters therefore must earn over Ā£12,500 per annum to pay income tax. …is that what you are claiming Jerry?
How many are there that achieve that level of income?
Do you know?
Indirect taxes:-
I presume you mean VAT
Which has many zero rated items..food and drink and youngsters clothing and footware.
Doubtful they actually pay much tax especially if you consider they gain free education and free health cover.
May 10, 2021
@Peter2; More pedantic, context-less, waffle from you Peter, oh-hmm.
Tax is tax, it all goes into the same pot, and many things children (legally anyone under the age of 18) buy are not zero rated. It is also quite possible for those 16 & 17 year of age to earn enough to bring them within the scope of income tax – not common I grant you, but possible non the less, should such enterprising youthful income tax payers also not be allowed to vote until age 25 – you have read Mr Life’s comment above haven’t you, the one I was replying to?
“Doubtful they actually pay much tax especially if you consider they gain free education and free health cover.”
On that logic the adult unemployed shouldn’t have the vote either…
May 10, 2021
Gosh Jerry
You really are on a contrary roll
Is this your idea of intelligent debate?
Perhaps address the points raised first before you get all agitated.
May 11, 2021
Gosh Peter2
You really are on a contrary (t)roll
Is this your idea of intelligent debate?
Perhaps address the points raised first before you get all agitated.
Otherwise stop wasting out hosts time, so just what have I got wrong…
May 11, 2021
I originally politely asked two simple questions and you reply with abuse.
Presumably because you cannot answer.
And you think you are engaging in debate.
Hilarious and pathetic in equal amounts.
May 10, 2021
and give the English their own Parliament and stop the non-citizens from Commonwealth being given the vote (especially when it is non-reciprocal) Then pigs may fly.
I suppose a vaccine passport for voting on the horizon too!!
May 10, 2021
No chance of England getting itās own Parliament Michelle. The majority of 650 UK MPs would be out of a job if that happened as we would only need a fraction of them for reserved matters. Iām afraid when it comes to the Westminster Gravy train or democracy for England, the WGT wins by a mile.
May 10, 2021
What you want is voter suppression, plain and simple, as the anti-democrats in the US have used in a number of states.
The unique polling card is pretty good.
The Government perhaps need to sort out the unquantified problem of residents in private care homes being given “help” with their postal votes by the owners, however.
May 10, 2021
What about ‘help’ being given by husbands to their wives and adult children?
May 10, 2021
Really !!!
You don’t even have to take the card with you, just verbally give them the number, they check your name on their list…that’s it.
Of course this anonymous vote can be tracked by the number on the voting slip that ties up with your electoral role number… they wouldn’t do that would they?
May 10, 2021
@Sea_Warrior; “I gather that the Queenās Speech will be tightening-up electoral security: good. ID verification must be added to our security mix.”
Fine, but then it is for the govt to provide suitable ID verification to all, a compulsory national ID card in short, it is not a crime no bank account, it is not a crime not to have a driving licence, nor passport etc. Funny, 11 or so years ago many on the right were arguing against the then Labour govts wish to bring in such a ID card, or is this less about needing voter ID and more about deigning some people their lawful right to cast a vote…
May 10, 2021
Yes, and that has been used to great effect on the Continent to stamp out cash-in-hand tax-dodging, unlawful employment, and so on.
I wonder if our dear right wing salt of the Earth would like that?
May 10, 2021
You are very naive if you think a national ID, with which I concur, has any effect on the black economy. Not where I live in the EU.
May 10, 2021
Tell us MiC how a simple ID card has stamped out tax avoidance.
Interested to hear your response.
May 11, 2021
Nothing… came the response.
Slink away when challenged.
May 11, 2021
MIC you must be joking. The black economy is alive and kicking in Spain and Italy. You need to get out more.
May 10, 2021
jerry – which people now get a vote without registering with the local council? Don’t the local council already check the people entered on the certificate by the head of the household and their eligibility to vote?
May 10, 2021
@a-tracy; The problem is, surely, not who is registered to vote but who actually turns up to vote – impersonation.
I also suspect my irony was a little to disguised for some, let me try again, my issue is demanding an ID check before being allowed to vote [1] whilst knowing some people simply do not have suitable ID, and legally have no reason to hold such documents.
[1] or accessing other official resources, such as the online Govt. Gateway portal
May 11, 2021
Perhaps the government should offer a free photo ID card to anyone without a Driving Licence, passport, if voluntary take up is good then it wouldn’t be necessary to change the law. The people without bank accounts, driving licences or passports would then have a form of ID they could use when applying for jobs, opening accounts, obtaining credit.
May 10, 2021
In my experience, local Electoral offices do not have the resources to check on the validity of every name registered. I can recall occasions where an average-size terrace house claimed to have an unlikely number of eligible adults resident at that address – when something suspicious is noted, it can be reported to the Borough’s Electoral Officer.
May 11, 2021
SM why can’t they insist on the polling card being presented? The council could offer to send polling cards to people’s smart phones in the future with a barcode reader.
May 10, 2021
When I went to the polling station on Thursday, I had my polling card with me. Had I not had it then I could have shown debit/credit cards and a Tesco clubcard in my name.
May 10, 2021
SW – Is it true they are allowing school/college children two votes for every one adult vote? So people who don’t pay get the biggest say.
May 10, 2021
Weighted referendums are absolutely the thing in Switzerland, which the usual always trumpet as a shining example, so why not?
If they hadn’t already though of it, then I’m sure they’ll thank you for the suggestion.
May 10, 2021
MiC – if your weighted referendums is in response to me can you tell me a bit more about it. Do the Swiss give all their 16 to 17 year olds double votes?
May 10, 2021
No, 18 is the federal voting age, but cantons are allowed to give 16/17 year olds the vote on local matters – so far, only one does that.
May 10, 2021
Isn’t that really giving teachers 30 votes each?
May 10, 2021
SW Agreed as teenagers are vulnerable to exploitation and as one feet on the ground farmer in Scotland noted a romantic braveheart Scotland is not a cat in hell chance with the SNP.
Logic is not their strong point.
Also sending millions of successive emails on voting day by political parties should be banned ….
May 10, 2021
@ukretired123; “Logic is not their strong point.”
Cough! Considering some adults are even more vulnerable to exploitation or threats of physical arm twisting, one of the reasons the the Tory govt in the 1980s brought in postal ballots for trade unions.
May 10, 2021
The most important change that needs to be made is to only allow UK citizens – ie. passport holders – to vote in UK elections. At the moment all sorts of foreigners, from the Irish to Commonwealth citizens, are allowed a vote. WHY? This is quite mad. It’s not even as if they were more likely to vote Tory, so there isn’t even the cynical self-interest justification. No. This madness must be stopped.
May 10, 2021
“And the PM needs to sort out the problem of devolved governments giving the vote to children. The practise must be ended, across the UK.”
Over decades the voting age has come down while the school leaving age has risen, which is an odd policy. Extending the vote to schoolchildren is a step too far.
May 10, 2021
This “Once in a generation ” vote line, is just annoying. The campaign for another referendum on Europe started about 5 minutes after the first . The only difference was that so few people supported it . Far more Scots want Indy Ref 2 than never wanted a vote on the EU and it is a vastly higher priority, and in the manifesto of a much much more proportionately supported Party.
We will hear much more of this rhetorical game of twister all of which tempts the subjugated remain minded constituency to support the SNP . That temptation should be resisted . The anti English eco9nomic fairly tale the SNP offer is no less toxic than the anti immigrant and Europe myths disseminated by the Brexit lot.
The urge to serve up the grim consequences of their own foolishness to the Brexit voter on a plate is strong…but we have to be better than them.
Reply More lies. There was no move for a second EEC ref after 1975. We waited two generations to get one. A small majority in Scotland are against Indy 2
May 10, 2021
A small majority in Scotland are against Indy 2 indeed and a larger one against “independence”. and even more against “Independence” under the thumb of the EU and using the EURO.
May 10, 2021
Especially as their money would have to be converted into Scottish “groats” or something until they can perhaps apply to join the EURO. Then there are all those state sector “jobs”, heavily subsidised by English taxpayers but located in Scotland. Loads of HMRC, civil service and defence jobs for example. Then there is all those “renewable” energy jobs (pointlessly) subsidised by English taxpayers due to the insane government “group think” religion.
I see that David Attenborough had been named “COP26 Peopleās Advocate” ahead of key climate summit. Well he has a pleasant enough narrating voice but who decided he was People’s Advocate? Do the People not get a say in this.
SIR DAVID ATTENBOROUGH: WE MUST ACT ON POPULATION he seems to me to be rather an Advocate for far fewer people and the misguided climate alarmism agenda.
May 10, 2021
The double standards are hilarious, if you apply the same definition for “will of the people” used here by John to that for leaving the European Union, and endlessly parroted by its haters.
The case for a second referendum in Scotland is bomb-proof, because the Tory”pledge” on which the first was based was comprehensively dishonoured within hours of the result.
And people can vote for whatever they like, whenever they like, and change their minds however they like.
Where is the law which says that they cannot, as John seems to me to imply?
May 10, 2021
Would the same apply to EU membership, eg. if they changed the rules (such as imposing EU loans on member countries or accepting a new recipient member) would the SNP be calling for a referendum on EU membership every couple of years? In a democracy, the majority vote wins, whether an individual town (or country) agree with it or not, and the EU do claim to be ‘democratic’. You either accept democracy, and the results of democracy, or you don’t. Only accepting democratic results you agree with is NOT democracy.
May 10, 2021
I wonder what you would have said if the European Union had told a member country that it could not hold a referendum?
May 11, 2021
The EU just made them vote again until they got the result they wanted.
May 10, 2021
No law Martin. It’s just that the majority don’t want a second referendum.
May 10, 2021
Actually, if the UK Parliament outlaw it, then there’s the law.
May 10, 2021
They dropped the voting age to 16 and played videos of Braveheart to school kids. It backfired on Labour north of the border but you can bet your bottom dollar that similar is planned for England.
May 10, 2021
Rather like Climate Alarmism is indoctrinated in schools, universities, by the BBC, by government propaganda and through the exam syllabuses.
May 10, 2021
NLA, I thought I remembered something I had read some time ago ā¦
āYou have not an hour to lose. You must take your places in lifeās fighting line. Donāt be content with things as they are. The earth is yours and the fullness thereof. Enter your inheritance, accept your responsibilities. ā¦ You will make all kind of mistakes, but as long as you are generous and true, and also fierce, you cannot hurt the world or even seriously distress herā.
Oh, btw this text is dated 1930 from some dangerous leftie called ā¦ Winston Churchill (My Early Life).
May 10, 2021
Of course the “once in a generation line” is annoying to the likes of you. It was expounded loudly in the run up to the 2014 referendum …. by the SNP no less, who hoped it would focus minds .. it did, the SNP lost. The call for a second referendum, or as it should be called “lets have another go”, is the standard tactic of the loser … listen to the moans of the dwindling number of europhiles post their loss in 2016. More annoying than your cant is the accusation that those who voted to leave the eurocracy are anti immigrant or even anti europe. Brexit is about being anti eu not anti european, and no wonder seeing the eurocracy’s current appalling approach to being “friendly” neighbours. Most irritating and contradictory are the accusations of being anti immigrant, implying xenophobia. The eu is a self serving protectionist regime that isolate third world countries, the UK is already dealing with the same as potential partners and friends and has always encouraged immigration, albeit with some more control than previous no thanks to labour or the French border patrols.
May 10, 2021
A large majority are against reality Tory pensioner Brexit – as demonstrated by the general election result in 2019.
When do we rejoin?
May 10, 2021
Quite – and as for the Scots, I think that the UN Resolution – that peoples have a right to self-determination – might just trump anything that the global laughing-stock English Tories might have to say.
May 10, 2021
Presumably NiC you would obviously accept the judgement of the courts if they are asked for one?
May 10, 2021
I would accept the judgement as legally correct with the law as it is, yes.
But be aware that the Court does apparently have the power to disapply an Act Of Parliament where that would put the UK in breach of a prior international treaty re a given case.
I would expect that the UK’s UN undertakings might cause at least some awkwardness in that regard.
May 10, 2021
But Parliament, as you keep telling us is MiC, is supreme so it would return there for a vote or a change in the law.
The UN has no superiority over UK law.
As I am sure you know.
May 10, 2021
Even if that were true it seems to have escaped your notice that the UK is pro Tory. The left have tried to portray Conservatives as the enemy of the ordinary person but people have seen through that. The opposition is split so you had better get used to the Tories and we will never rejoin because the EU as presently constituted is doomed. It will end up as it started with 6 or 7 countries.
May 10, 2021
“When do we rejoin?” Andy
Not in your lifetime chum!
May 10, 2021
Perhaps another 45 years or so if the next generations are really daft enough? But they will probably grow up by then.
May 10, 2021
You can go in seven days, au revoir et bientot.
May 10, 2021
No au revoirs Agric. Just adieu.
May 10, 2021
Turn’s out Andy many weren’t Tory brexiteers but it seems they are now. Labour tried to face both ways and they couldn’t, a vote for Labour in 2019 wasn’t to rejoin so how did you work out that the general election result in 2019 was for that?
May 10, 2021
Parties in favour of rejoining the EU got less than 20% of the vote at the last general election. Had the population been in favour of rejoin they would have risen up as one and voted for the LibDems the Scots nationalists and the greens.
But they didnāt.
May 10, 2021
Of course a small minority of unreconciled (leftist) remain voters support the snp. Just like they support anything else perceived to damage the U.K. so they can be āprovedā right. Most of us however have moved on and want the best for our Country.
Contrary to the BBCās reporting the SNP failed in their objective in Scotland as the vote showed no evidence of any material change in support for a another referendum and separatism against the one we had in 2014. So we will respect democracy and stay with the result of the 2014 referendum. If in āa generationā, if thereās evidence for majority for separatism then we can have a re-run then. We canāt have a referendum every time the snp is the largest party in the Scottish election.
May 10, 2021
Recollections may differ. Anti European sentiment both predates and post dates 1975 when a 68.65% to 31.36 % thumping drove anti European sentiment to the outskirts of political life. Had the Brexit referendum of the Indy ref one had this result no doubt the questions would have gone quiet.
Your counter claim , that there was something uniquely gentlemanly about the rabble of far right and hard left horrors who lost has only one fault .It is self evidently not true
May 10, 2021
In 1975 the sentiment was neither pro or anti European. The people did indeed vote for the EEC/Common Market as it was then but they were kept in the dark about European political ambitions.
May 11, 2021
Sorry, but who kept you in the dark about European political ambitions? Ever heard about FCO-30/1048 of April 1971?
May 10, 2021
Margaret Thatcher (according to the BBC) was a *divisive* Prime Minister and Tony Blair was a *unifying* one.
Well Tony Blair has not only destroyed his own party but has fractured the whole country.
Don’t let the truth get in the way though.
Newmania. The Brexit/Conservative *mob* you sneer at only enabled Blair to look like a unifying PM because they accept the vote when it does not go their way.
Whenever Conservatives win, whenever Brexit wins the Left kick off big time and resist democracy and even go as far as to smash the place up.
UK BLM and XR are a *mob*.
May 10, 2021
Newmania
Generations in Scotland are obviously different, could it be down to an unhealthy lifestyle?
May 10, 2021
The UK electorate voted overwhelmingly for pro-European parties at every GE from 1973 to 2015.
So by John’s logic there should never have been that 2016 referendum.
It’s an implicit admission that it was just a terribly bungled attempt to unite the Tories. However, once the foreign-owned UK press got their teeth into it…
reply They elected a government pledged to offer a referendum and with the constitutional right to hold one.
May 10, 2021
And what proportion of the electorate voted for that party of government?
May 11, 2021
MIC you must be joking. The black economy is alive and kicking in Spain and Italy. You need to get out more.
May 10, 2021
Sturgeonās real plan is to accept huge amounts of government largess for the rest of this Parliament.
May 10, 2021
I couldn’t agree with you more Bob. We must make sure that no politicians are tempted to buy off this minority. The government has a commons majority and no need to court the SNP.
May 10, 2021
+1
May 10, 2021
That is also surely one reason so many voted for her.
May 10, 2021
No doubt it will be given.
May 10, 2021
Then perhaps Boris might suggest that he will grant permission of ‘Indy Ref 2’ – and I hate that term as much as ‘uni’ – after Scotland has managed its budget for two full years without any subsidy from rUK.
May 10, 2021
correct – throw English money at the disaster which is Scotland.
May 10, 2021
@ Bob DIxon – exactly so and in that her closest ally will be the people’s Blue Boris himself.
May 10, 2021
Blue Boris can now forget about Scotland and set about withdrawing from the Northern Ireland Protocol.
May 10, 2021
@Bob Duxon +1 and this Government dances to that set of ‘Bag-Pipes’ Even in recent days saying they will chuck more money to her to win her people over. Missing the point she wont spend it were it is needed but store it in her War chest.
Better UK Money(UK taxpayer money) goes direct to the communities of need, let them choose if they want to pool it.
If a Devolved Government needs more money for their political election purposes let them raise it from their own communities. Others(the UK taxpayer) that have no say in their elections shouldn’t be forced to pay. That then is Democracy, you vote for it, you pay for it.
May 10, 2021
1000% correct.
May 10, 2021
Bob
Agreed, and if Boris is sucked in by this so obvious plan to suck more money out of the UK pot, to go to Scotland to try and keep them quiet, he would be an absolute fool.
They may want independence, but only if they can get away without any of the costs associated with it.
May 10, 2021
Including their share of the national debt. After all the ‘compensation’ we had to give the EU, much of it on dubious grounds, for budgets of the future, some Scots think they can walk away without even shouldering their share of what is owed now. Remember ‘if you don’t settle your debts nobody in the world will want to trade with you’.
May 10, 2021
And the U.K. Government, a Tory one at that are only too happy to keep giving them more and more at Englandās expense and sod the English.
May 10, 2021
Good morning.
Let us face it, this is nothing but a demand for more powers and more money. And, of course, they will get it !
This running sore will just fester and fester and until we either get shot of them or the UK Government grow some balls and admit that the whole devolution matter has been a monumental mistake and put an end to the long running farce.
It has not gone unnoticed that it is the minor parts of our Union that seem to get airtime on what they want, with the major component part, England, once again ignored. When do I get a vote Sir John on whether I wish to be a part of this mess.
The situation as we have it today is a typical British State / Establishment Chimera. A creation that is neither full on Federalisation (Swiss style), or one that is that of a single Nation State. The whole things seems confused and botched.
The full effects of CV19 and the Lockdown are yet to reach us due to Furlough but, when they do I am sure many are not going to take kindly to parts of the UK demanding, and getting, more with not so much as a thanks.
Time to either think of something different or cut loose the dead weights.
May 10, 2021
Right again, well said!
May 10, 2021
Having had a negative result referendum in 2014, what is the extent of a generation. I would guess 20/25 years ie. 2034/2039. That should be long enough for the SNP to begin to grate on the Scottish population. You need to be a complete masochist to listen to the womans monotone delivery for more than 30 seconds. The BBC , having realized this, give her vastly disproportionate airtime just to annoy the English. Get real, the SNP represent no more than a quarter of the population of London, assuming half the population of Scotland.
The real answer to the SNP is to make the rest of the UK such an unquestionable success ,post Brexit/Covid, that the folly of their desire to be a minow in a disintegrating EU stands out in neon bold. Just keep auditing SNP failures that debilitate the people of Scotland and emphasie them with the outstanding success of the UK in the same areas. They the Scots will realise that the sun shines better and longer in the UK than out of it.
May 10, 2021
It’s time someone called her bluff. Boris should grant a referendum after telling the Scots what they will lose after independence.
All RN shipbuilding will come south and no support from the English taxpayer.
They would be a basket case in no time.
May 10, 2021
And transfer all the UK wide public sector jobs south of the border
May 10, 2021
Agree about RN shipbuilding tranferred to English ports
May 10, 2021
Referring back to my previous comments:
https://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2021/05/08/its-the-economy-stupid/#comment-1227370
https://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2021/05/08/its-the-economy-stupid/#comment-1227376
it should be made perfectly clear that it would not be Boris Johnson blocking a repeat referendum, it would be the law as enacted by the UK Parliament, the supreme legal authority of the UK:
“An Act of the Scottish Parliament is not law so far as any provision of the Act is outside the legislative competence of the Parliament.”
If Nicola Sturgeon or any other member of the devolved Scottish parliament chose to break that law then that would not exactly be a good starting point for it to become a sovereign body.
People keep talking about this ending up in the Supreme Court but that would only happen if the High Court agreed with the losing side that there were grounds for appeal to the higher court.
Watching Michael Gove dodging questions yesterday morning on two TV programmes he came across to me as absolutely hopeless as Boris Johnson’s appointed defender of the union.
May 10, 2021
Michael Gove – and Boris Johnson – are absolutely hopeless at defending the UK, full stop. Look at how they surrendered to the EU on every single issue. And now they are refusing to slap down the SNP. Why can we not have some actual patriots in charge of governing the country???
May 10, 2021
It is only 4 months since we were (relatively) free of the EU. If Boris makes a success of Brexit, and the EU continues on its downward spiral, will the SNP still be calling to join the EU? The SNP will always call for independence, as it pays off so handsomely. I really do believe many vote for the SNP because of this extra UK funding, safe in the knowledge that the SNP cannot take them out of the UK without a referendum.
May 10, 2021
Having lost one referendum the SNP will seize on any halfway plausible pretext to have another chance..
If they were allowed that repeat referendum, and they lost again, then they would just search for another pretext for another repeat, and so on.in the classic neverendum style.
They have even demanded that the Scottish devolved bodies should be granted the legal power to arrange as many independence referendums as they want, that is to say as they might need to hold to finally win one.
From December 2019:
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18111952.nicola-sturgeon-demands-permanent-referendum-power-holyrood/
“NICOLA Sturgeon has called for Holyrood to be given permanent powers to hold an indefinite number of independence referendums.
The First Minister today published draft legislation which would overhaul the 1998 Scotland Act to make votes on leaving the Union a devolved rather than a reserved issue.”
May 11, 2021
The SNP have changed the way they teach history in schools and brainwashed teenage kids so lowering the age to vote will therefore give them the advantage in another referendum. 16 is too young to vote on matters that are so important.
May 10, 2021
I thought constitutional matters were retained by the Westminster government as any decisions affect all four nations? I’ve never understood why the devolved governments have been permitted to “fiddle the books”e.g. children and foreigners voting; separating the NHS, then allowing devolved assemblies to send their sick to England for treatment, free of charge, etc. The answer is the alien concept of SMART management by the UK government, not abject surrender to the unrealistic blackmail demands of profligate devolved assemblies. Westminster should be setting their own strict perameters for the operation of devolved powers, otherwise the question must be, what exactly is the purpose of a UK government?
May 10, 2021
JR
I agree with all your points here. More didnāt vote for the SNP than did, so I donāt think that N Sturgeon has a mandate at all.
I also donāt think throwing more money at Scotland is the answer to try and persuade them to remain part of the Union. That money will just be accepted and mis-used by Holyrood. Would be better to do the opposite, except it would be the people who would suffer, not Sturgeon!
May 10, 2021
Absolutley. It was agreed the last referendum would be once in a generation. I think sturgeon herself said once in a lifetime. If people are told a referendum decision will be respected we can’t have re-runs just because the losers don’t like the result. Otherwise in any future referendum on anything there will be an assumption that the result won’t be respected there either. I managed to sit though 1/2 of Marr’s interview with sturgeon but by the time I fast forwarded this point hadn’t been made.
There is in any case no evidence that support for Scottish separatism is materially different than it was in 2014. Let sturgeon have her wildcat referendum she will just make a fool of herself – and unionists should certainly boycott it. (And some enterprising Scottish taxpayer might take her to court and get the money back).
May 10, 2021
https://www.facebook.com/ScottishConservatives/videos/-nicola-sturgeon-repeatedly-said-that-indyref-was-a-once-in-a-generation-event-n/2331986356879656/
May 10, 2021
Let Sturgeon have her vote. This time I hope they get it right and leave. If they don’t, it will be the end for Sturgeon and her anti-English party.
May 10, 2021
Totally agree Old Albion but as long as all the other anti-English parties at Westminster, Conservatives included, keep shovelling English taxpayersā money in their direction, theyāre never going to have the guts to go for it.
May 10, 2021
I fully agree. Otherwise this will drag on for decades, and I for one will become increasingly annoyed at the sheer unfairness of the deal the Scots have : student fees, free prescriptions etc. etc.
May 10, 2021
Referring to your last paragraph, JR, the SNP have latched on to Brexit as a plausible justification for a repeat referendum but they should be told to wait and see how it pans out in practice.
As time goes by we can better test whether George Osborne was right with his theoretical Project Fear projections for the long term economic damage we would suffer from leaving the EU:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/517415/treasury_analysis_economic_impact_of_eu_membership_web.pdf
The scaremongering table in the Executive Summary is headed:
“Annual impact of leaving the EU on the UK after 15 years (difference from being in the EU)”
So that would be 2035, which would actually be getting on for a generation after the first referendum.
May 10, 2021
The UK parliament needs to fix the weak to non-existent separation of powers in the Scottish government. This was evident during the recent Salmond saga and commented on by the Spectator.
In the event of another Scottish independence vote, voters need to be 18 years old and those born in Scotland but resident elsewhere in the UK deserve the vote too because their citizenship would be at stake.
OT Among the Bills planned for the next session I read there is an Animal Sentient Bill. Students of the Overton Window will recognise this at the latest stage in the campaign to get the eating of meat and fish banned and turn us all into vegans. MPs must reject it out of hand.
May 10, 2021
Surely. If The Scottish Government go ahead with a referendum all is needed is a Scottish āGina Millerā. If it is illegal as everyone keeps saying the Scottish Government will lose without any need of Westminster getting involved. One of the reasons for any Scottish delay is to have more time to churn out more hatred for the U.K. in particular the English to enhance their position
May 10, 2021
Just read this twaddle from her interview with Andrew Marr yesterday:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/09052101.pdf
AM: Of course we canāt be sure what will happen at the court level after the legislation goes through.
NS: Well letās hope it doesnāt get there.
AM: And it not be the British government, it might be somebody else takes you to court. Can I ask you straightforwardly, have you taken legal advice about whether you could win such a court case?
NS: I havenāt been planning for a referendum over this past year. Iāve been focusing on Covid. But anybody who knows anything about the legislative process in the Scottish parliament knows that any government has to consult its law officers before it brings forward legislation. So that will all be part and parcel of what we do. But you know I donāt want to lose this point, Andrew. So no, we havenāt got to the stage of introducing a Bill formally but that will be part and parcel of the process.
I think we can take it that whatever her own case may have been the Scottish law officers will not have been fully occupied fighting the pandemic over the past year, so why did she not consult them, and then publish their advice, before drawing up her manifesto for these elections? Could it not be suggested that she and her SNP colleagues have all been elected under false pretences?
May 10, 2021
I like this idea of counting actual votes to work out what people think.
Imagine if we did that at general elections? The almost 3% of voters who voted Green in 209 would be represented by almost 20 MPs, instead of the 1 they have. The almost 12% of voters who voted Lib Dem would be represented by more than 70 MPs. And the 40% who voted Tory would be represented by a minority of MPs which reflects their actual support in the country – rather than the huge parliamentary majority they have. Tories are in a minority in this country and theyād do well to remember it.
Reply In a referendum issue the people vote directly so you need 50% plus 1. In a General election the candidate with the most votes becomes the MP and is then answerable to the electors directly. PR systems give you some MPs – or all MPs – with no direct accountability to a constituency. PR undermines representative democracy by breaking links and accountability to constituencies.
May 10, 2021
Andy, imagine if the UK were to hold a straightforward referendum on what voting system it wanted, AV or FPTP?
Oh wait, it did, only 10 years ago ~ and the result was FPTP.
May 10, 2021
andy wants another vote.
He doesn’t like the first result.
May 10, 2021
Andy – you forgot to mention when the Lib Dems got 11 MPs and UKIP got none at all – despite gaining more votes overall. I have a suspicion that you were happy with that particular FPTP outcome?
Andrew Neil points out today that Nicola Sturgeon repeatedly promised that this election was about recovering from Covid (and not IndyRef2) during the election campaign but that her ‘tune’ changed immediately after the polls had closed. I saw a very brief short on the News last night with some Scottish guy telling her she had “cheated” with her election promises – they (Sky?) only played it the once though?
Andrew Marr was trying to pin her down yesterday but she successfully just talked over him. Andrew Neil manages to nail her down much more effectively (you can see her squirm), so I don’t suppose she will be in any hurry to be interviewed by him anytime soon. What a pity more of the media are not as searching in their questioning.
May 10, 2021
Reply to reply: furthermore, we voted in a referendum for FPTP. Despite that, the supplementary vote has been slipped into some of our elections, distorting the result. Why should extreme left wing voters get two bites at the cherry which is what happened in the London Mayoral election and also elsewhere. Everyone should vote for one person, and then we can see a clear, clean result.
May 10, 2021
PS when I say everyone should vote for one person, I mean vote once. At present, some people, conservatives, are voting once, because there is no-one else they can vote for who has a chance of winning, and others, Greens and socialists, are voting twice. At least make these second votes worth half the first ones.
May 10, 2021
ā¦ says somebody who seems to have never encountered a voting system other than FPTP. One of the biggest problems in this country is that the voters are mainly stuck with Conservative or Labour. As Maurice Duverger had already written in 1964, FPTP provides government with legislative voting majorities at the expense of proper representation of electors. By encouraging a two-party structure in the Parliament FPTP creates the manure on which dissensions between different subgroups of MPs of the same party fight from preponderance of their ideas completely dissociated from the electoral base that has elected them.
I like very much the MP āanswerable to the electors directlyā, possibly true for MPs working as social workers to constituents in need, certainly not in terms of any potential questioning of the MPās voting choice in Parliament.
In the case of the UK the system is even more ridiculous when there is no actual vote for the PM. It makes this country a pseudo-democracy where in a large number of constituencies the MP might only reflect the views of a minority of the electors (less than 50% +1) and where the PM is only there because of the choice of a few thousands of party members and some tens of party MPs.
But England is the āmother of Parliamentā and some even think that it is the āmother of democracyā.
May 10, 2021
We are not “stuck with Labour and the Conservatives” hefner.
We could all vote in an alternative party if we all wanted to.
May 12, 2021
P2, yes, we certainly can vote for an alternative party, but how many years do you think it will take for such an alternative party to come close to really influencing the day-to-day running of this country?
May 10, 2021
Reply to Reply: An MP is ‘answerable to electors directly’ except of course when the Cabinet Office writes the boilerplate prose answer to a constituent’s enquiry, as I gather has been happening quite a bit recently. I respect your diligence in taking your own constituents’ concerns seriously, Sir John, but let no-one fool themselves that is the usual situation with MPs, least of all since March 2020.
Since Tories, Libdems and Labour now agree on so much, the case against PR, as envisaged by Andy, has simply collapsed. There would be no difficulty in forming a stable government implementing the policies currently being pursued.
May 10, 2021
Open a commission to discuss and determine the terms of leaving.
Then they can have a vote on those terms.
There should be no vote until all sides know the costs and consequences. 300 years of history is different from 40 years of subservience, and that was difficult enough. The rUK populace needs to know that Scotland will pay back its infrastructure and free prescriptions and the Scottish people need to know the cost of being independent.
Whatever the outcome there must be no more ground ceded to the Scots, they are either independent or not, this hybrid costs everyone else.
May 10, 2021
Why didn’t you suggest that perfectly good idea for brexit?
May 10, 2021
Because we should not have been so intertwined with the EU after but 40 years.
I have also learned a thing or two about dissolving agreements during the process of Leaving the EU and know that at least one party will not act in good faith.
May 10, 2021
abolish the barnett formula, let Scotland live within its means
stop Scottish MP’s voting on English matters
May 10, 2021
yes absolutely
May 10, 2021
Sturgeon produces noise, not results.
If she wants a Referendum she should hold one.
May 10, 2021
51% to 49% is not half a powerful a statement than being able to cite the actual total vote tallies, it looks more definitive , especially as referendum is a plebiscite where total votes matter, so when ever Sturgeon starts prattling on about a mandate to have a referendum, she needs to be disabused of that notion by pointing out she didn’t carry the majority of the electorate with her in the election.
How ever matters end up Sturgeon has won, for even if she doesn’t get her referendum, the people of Scotland will be showered with infrastructure goodies to bribe them to stay as money bags Boris has already indicated , as well as having the whole of the British media at her beck and call, for even though the SNP vote is just over one million, and there a 65 million people who didn’t vote SNP, that is all the media , especially the BBC, wanted to talk about. All our political issues are a mere backwater compared to their desire to indulge the SNP .
May 10, 2021
The referendum in 2016 did not carry a majority of the electorate either.
About 37% of it voted Leave.
Your point is?
May 10, 2021
MiC
The point is…
That people under 18 and tourists and non UK citizens don’t get to vote.
And voting isn’t compulsory.
May 10, 2021
If you include them then it was about only 26%.
May 10, 2021
Nonsense MiC
You have to look at the legally accepted total number of voters.
Are you saying voting should be compulsory?
Are you really saying babies, young children, tourists and non UK citizens should vote?
May 11, 2021
Very true Iain. Many of us are sick of hearing about Scotland. Let them go and give us some peace. Stop giving them more. It strengthens Sturgeons position. They have a life of luxury compared to here. They are, we are told, a special case as they are under populated in certain areas and yet poll taxes are low compared to here. They have their water rates included in the poll tax as water is still nationalised. Stop the extra funding. They don’t need it. Start concentrating on the north of England where Boris needs to keep voters happy.
May 10, 2021
Sturgeon’s SNP party is popular in Scotland primarily due to it’s far-left socialist policies, her ability to exploit Scottish dislike of the English and the perception that the SNP as been successful in extracting more than their fair share of the Treasury cake.
As Sir John points out, there is no clear constitutional majority for another Scottish independence referendum. The success of the SNP in last week’s elections had much to do with the failure of the Scottish Conservatives in getting out their vote and the loss of their charismatic ex-leader Ruth Davidson. Sturgeon’s nemesis Alex Salmond – a hard-line supporter of independence – failed to make an impact as clearly the Scots do not trust him. Probably because after serious allegations were made against him in 2017, he went to live and work in Russia!
After 15 years of one-party SNP rule, Scotland has many more pressing issues than another referendum. People are waiting six (!!) years for hip replacement surgery. Children have been out of school for a year. Scotland’s high unemployment – much higher than the rest of the UK – is a drag on their economy as are the SNP’s high taxation policies. Drug abuse and alcoholism are rife. Scotland has attracted next to no foreign inward investment. Sturgeon’s demand for another independence referendum has much to do with deflecting her party’s blame for these problems to the English/Westminster.
In any case, the polls clearly show that the way the question is worded affects the result. The SNP does not like the question “Should Scotland leave the UK?” as asking this gives a clear majority for “No” – as opposed to “Should Scotland be an independent country?” where the result is less clear.
For those interested in polling, Wikipedia has a page detailing all recent polls – which as Sir John points out, show a majority in favour of remaining in the Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence
May 10, 2021
Off topic, but not irrelevant as it touches on the future of the union:
https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2021/05/08/news/european-commission-rejects-british-government-proposal-for-greater-flexibility-on-the-irish-sea-border-2314977/
“European Commission rejects British government proposal for greater flexibility on the Irish Sea border”
Also:
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/fifth-of-all-eu-border-checks-happening-in-northern-ireland-40404848.html
“Fifth of all EU border checks happening in Northern Ireland”
And that is while a huge volume of checks have been unilaterally suspended by the UK government.
May 10, 2021
What about holding a Ref for the English only ? Two Questions to be answered on the ballot.
First ‘Do you agree with England Independence?’ Second ‘ Do you agree that Scotland should be Independent?’
May 10, 2021
I also support the PMās decision to oppose another vote.
There is no justification for it given that we didn’t see more real extra support for the SNP
No doubt the UK (England) would end up paying for this referendum, one way or another, and there is no suggestion that Scotland would vote in favour of leaving — This is just more grand-standing.
Clearly Sturgeon thinks the EU way is best — If the first vote is not in your favour then insist it is run again until finally the right answer is produced, no matter how long that takes.
May 10, 2021
As our host points out, the SNP do not have a mandate, just a manifesto wish.
When David Cameron pledged a referendum on the UK’s EU membership prior to the 2010 general election, and then failed to win a majority, instead having to form a coalition, the actual referendum had to wait until after 2015.
May 10, 2021
Quite so. The second point is he granted it, they had it, they voted, and we don’t need to go through it all again.
May 10, 2021
The clearest way to Scottish independence is to allow the English people to vote on it.
We can’t understand why Westminster is so keen to hold on to the Union and what’s wrong with being a *little* Englander ? We don’t actually want to upset people or keep sticking our noses in their business.
However. Just how Germany gets to reunite and Britain disintegrates beats me – history is rewritten and apparently some extinct tribe called the Nazis did it. Just how American states are perfectly happy to have their national government located thousands of miles away in a different time zone and some tricky Scots are unhappy with a few hundred beats me too – especially seeing that they have all sorts of democratic and economic advantages over the English. A Scottish child may well be better off by several hundreds of thousands of pounds after tuition fees and unaffected inheritance (free care home costs) are taken into consideration.
Remainer Tony Blair caused this.
Andy will doubtless tell us Brexit caused it but I look to Tony Blair and his Braveheart distortion of historical events and visceral hatred of the English people.
May 10, 2021
This is because both Blair and Brown are Scotch, and hated England.
May 10, 2021
@NLA; “”whatās wrong with being a *little* Englander ?”
Nothing, so long as its not just a thoughtless knee-jerk, or a vehicle to some unspoken political agenda, the problem is all to often such suggestions are one or both.
May 10, 2021
Mostly I find it funny that your Brexit is such a success that youāre all looking to find people to blame for it – and for all the consequences of it.
May 10, 2021
Do you blame Brexit for this situation or was it devolution ?
May 10, 2021
This isn’t about Sturgeon, this is now Boris’ job to speak up for the Union, why is the Union good for the Scots when we just allow an Independent Southern Ireland to walk all over us with their common travel area, votes in the UK, turning a blind eye to their unfair taxation on the island of Ireland, why doesn’t Boris immediately give Northern Ireland a boost to match the Southern Ireland tax rate with a max tax rate at the UK rate. Why are we not recharging for UK hospital treatments and specialist treatments. It is time the UK stops bending over backward. Let’s start getting the NHS in order by recharging. If you need a private company to set up the charing model and computer software offer them 50% of all the money raised it is 50% more money for the NHS than we get now.
May 10, 2021
The SNP has had one once in a life time referendum and it didn’t go their way. Like Brexit we had our once in a life time referendum and the losers want a re-run.
It could be that People are crying out to be in control of their lives and their Democracy. Devolution was for most only partial but never equal.
For the Scots it is time to give them they same proportional share of the seats in the HoC. It is time to devolve more power to the regions and unity bodies of the whole of the UK in unison, if they want to share and pool it should be their gift not Central Government.
What is called the ‘Barnett’ formular needs up-dating and shared out based on need and be fairly distributed, what shouldn’t happen is that it goes to the so-called ‘devolved’ governments, but directly to the regions and unitary bodies. If they feel the need to pool that is their choice, their democratic choice. In that way the North East or even Cornwall should get a share. After all isn’t it supposed to be ‘levelling up’ money!
Every move by a Central Command Government to level up or tinker ends in distortion and corruption. In the same way as we are all different, all have different needs and priorities, but we can all do a considerably better job on providing and fulfilling the needs of our communities than the ‘one size’ fits all metro left image of society that a Dictatorial Government has.
May 10, 2021
O/T: Is it true that the 23 roll-over trade deals that Liz Truss has signed with countries like Canada, Singapore, Switzerland ā¦ feature clauses specifically excluding manufacturers benefitting from free port tax breaks? If it is the case what will be the best way forward for manufacturers: go with the āduty drawback arrangementsā available in free ports or go for the āpreferential tariff ratesā of the trade deals?
May 10, 2021
The best way forward for manufacturers is to relocate to the single market.
May 10, 2021
No good going there. They’ve been heading for China where net zero doesn’t apply.
May 10, 2021
Strange that some EU businesses are relocating to the UK
May 12, 2021
P2, Can you provide a list, please?
Do they compensate for the 7,500 jobs and Ā£1.2tn assets that have gone the other way?
May 10, 2021
John, I know Iām not alone when I say Iām sick of hearing about the will of the Scottish people. The majority of MPs in HM Government, i.e. your fellow Tory MPs, ārepresentā English constituencies. What about the will of the English people for a change. Johnson and your party are all so busy begging the already pampered Scots not to go and bribing them with more English money whilst the whole sorry lot of them continue to deliberately ignore the English and the rotten deal we English get from this so called union.
I donāt know anybody in my circle that doesnāt now say they wish the Scots would go – good riddance. They say give us English a vote and theyāll be gone tomorrow. Why not, itās our union too. But of course the English are never allowed a vote on the union are they? Theyāre just required to hand over their taxes for UK Governments to shovel in bucket loads to the devolved nations for them to enjoy all the freebies denied to England on grounds of cost. One thing is for sure, when the Scots get their vote, they must be given a choice – either total independence or if they choose to stay, the Scots Parliament must be scrapped and the Barnett Formula along with it. If they choose independence, then they live on their own means and receive no further funding from the English and they take their share of the debts. UK Governments of all colours, this Tory one included who would not exist without England, are utter cowards for refusing to address the English Question, the West Lothian Question and the skewed Barnett Formula all of which are grossly unfair to England. The fools must know that the more they give Scotland at Englandās expense, the more they will demand. Meanwhile nationalism in England has never been higher. The English are sick of being ignored. They are sick of being nothing but a cash cow for the benefit of the rest of the so called union. They are sick of seeing their kids saddled with debts that donāt apply to the devolved nations and sick of seeing our sick being the only ones paying for prescriptions and hospital parking.
552 UK MPs (yourself excluded) squatting in English seats should be ashamed of themselves for the way they are happy to see England and the majority of their constituents get such a rotten deal from this so called union both constitutionally and financially but somehow I doubt it. England deserves better. England deserves a voice and representation at Westminster which it currently does not get. 552 UK MPs ārepresentingā English seats cannot even say the word England let alone stand up for it. Shame on them all.
May 11, 2021
Very disappointed John that although my comment was posted 8.00 a.m. yesterday morning, it is still in moderation. I thought you were a fair minded MP but obviously not when it comes to pointing out how useless and anti-English your fellow MPs are. I expect this sort of censorship from socialist MPs who prefer to shut down their opponents rather than have them express their views. You are one of the very few remaining true Conservative MPs left so doubly disappointing.
May 10, 2021
What a bloody disaster so called devolved Government has been, they all have a say and vote on English matters, but only want their own votes to count in their own Country, but they still want and presently get, more money than England gets to spend on itself.
This lop sided farce has to end, and the sooner the better. As I said yesterday, scrap the Barnett formula and let them raise their own taxes if they want to spend extra on themselves.
May 10, 2021
Devolution could be managed better. At the moment, it is heavily weighted in favour of the devolved governments. A good solution would be to subsidise all countries of the UK at the same rate. Any ‘extra funding’ for whatever country, should be considered a loan. Those loans would have to be repaid in the event of obtaining independence. If any of the countries within the union want to spend on infrastructure, it should come from the taxes of that country or be ‘borrowed’ from another country within the UK. It would concentrate spending into infrastructure that would increase business, jobs and therefore increase future tax take. Of course, it would be easy for England, but not so easy for NI, Wales or Scotland, but it would emphasise the support given by the UK.
May 10, 2021
If Boris feels he cannot refuse a referendum on Scottish Independence then it must be offered on the requirement of both sides to set out clearly and comprehensively how post independence they will run their affairs vis vis the other. I cannot see the SNP being able to proffer good terms to its supporters.
May 10, 2021
Last time out the SNP produced a 670-page guide to what independence looked like. The Brexitists produced a 13 word slogan on the side of a bus – which turned out to be untrue.
Sturgeon is far better prepared than the Brexitists ever were.
May 10, 2021
Here is a 13 word slogan: – Scotland poor health, education, business, jobs, social service, food banks, bitter and twisted.
May 10, 2021
More fictional than anything written by J K Rowling. At least the spending figure on the bus was grounded in real data.
May 10, 2021
Andy
You may have a wonderful opportunity in the future to move to Scotland, and be in the EU at the same time, but do not hold your breath !
May 10, 2021
From the Scottish viewpoint there is little difference to how UK Parliament is behaving and how the UK Leavers preserved the behaviour of the EU during the Brexit referendum.
Forget calculations, percentage win, early quotations, constitution, signed agreements etc only two things matter with regard to self determination
1. Did they have a stated aim of referendum in manifesto?
2. Did they win the election?
The UK government must comply with any request; the union is a union by consent
Otherwise we are no better than the EU bureaucracy
May 10, 2021
The European Union never even remotely implied that the UK could not have a referendum.
Would you like to reconsider your last line?
May 10, 2021
EU a rules based country when it convenient – Art50 clearly states that negotiations will only last 2 years….they kept extending hoping we’d stay in
May 10, 2021
This is an open wound and will never heal. The Nats will go on and on until they get the result they want. But in the meantime they will screw the rest of us for every bleeding pound and some to magic up even more magic freebies to make them look good.
The practice game is over, now let start using the word no on their demands. All we are doing is selling the real Scottish people short by sucking up to the nats and their every demand. Let the nats start to live in the real world and do things for themselves for once without handouts from Westminster.
May 10, 2021
Option A
Dissolve the Union and replace with free trade agreement
Option B
Never allow the Union to dissolve
Option C
Dissolve the Union of four countries and replace with a single country āBritainā
If Scotland goes her own way the UK needs a plan for the rest of the Union
May 10, 2021
If a 49% or 48.4% share of the vote is not a high enough share to enact a particular policy, logically that means a much lower 43.6% share of a vote is not a high enough vote share to legitimately do the same.
If this Conservative government can actually divide the UK (by signing up to the Northern Ireland protocol) on a 43.6% vote share, then surely a 49% vote share is sufficient to allow the Scots to be asked the question given the fundamental change in the UK’s position as a result of a Brexit that the majority of Scots were opposed to and voted against.
It is good to see John Redwood arguing that share of vote matters in terms of democratic legitimacy. I look forward to the upcoming article arguing in favour of a fair and representative voting system for Westminster and English voters.
May 10, 2021
See me after school!
Your Mathematics is interesting but you need to brush up on Horticulture with regard to the difference between Apples and Pears.
May 10, 2021
I doubt it. The whole premise of the original article is democratic legitimacy based on share of the vote (as opposed to how those votes translate into members of any particular Parliament). Therefore, my logic and mathematics are entirely sound.
Just because two different electoral systems produce wildly different outcomes (a “stonking majority” on a smaller minority share, compared to a narrow majority on a much higher minority share) doesn’t mean that it is a good idea to give minority vote shares absolute power (there being recent Westminster governments with majorities derived from just 36.9% and 35.2% of the votes – whatever you think of my maths, neither of those two figures in anyway represents a majority of those who voted).
May 10, 2021
@Peter Parsons. There is certainly a feeling that this London Biased Government doesn’t give a ‘fig’ about the Belfast Agreement or the Union. There was a time when there was a Political Party in the UK called ‘The Conservative and Unionist Party’ – I wonder what happened to that?
May 10, 2021
I am waiting to see if I get any responses to my letter printed in the Maidenhead Advertiser last Thursday:
https://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2021/05/02/the-number-of-quangos/#comment-1225999
“To quote our own Tory MP Theresa May speaking in July 2016, after the Queen had asked her to take over from David Cameron:
āNot everybody knows this, but the full title of my party is the Conservative and Unionist Party and that word unionist is very important to meā
āIt means we believe in the union, the precious, precious bond between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.ā”
May 10, 2021
And that is, presumably, why Theresa May negotiated the Brexit deal she did, as her deal at least protected the integrity of the United Kingdom. However, it was voted down by many in her own party and ended up being replaced by a deal which did not, which many of those same MPs then voted for.
May 10, 2021
It’s certainly sufficient to allow the SNP to ask the UK authorities for a repeat referendum, but that is all they can do within the legal bounds of Scottish devolution. Any referendum promise that SNP candidates made beyond that was false, they were promising something outside the legal competence of the assembly to which they were seeking election.
In 1999 when Winifred Ewing opened the new Scottish Parliament with the words:
“The Scottish Parliament, adjourned on the 25th day of March in the year 1707, is hereby reconvened.”
that was simply not true; the previous sovereign Scottish Parliament and the previous sovereign English Parliament had both disappeared into the sovereign Parliament of Great Britain, never to re-emerge.
The Labour party should not have allowed jumped up members of the new devolved Scottish Parliament, the mere creature of the UK Parliament, to spread the myth that it was comparable to the UK Parliament as a sovereign body when in reality it is just part of the highest tier of local government in the UK.
On the same level as Kent County Council, which so far has not demanded the independence of Kent.
May 11, 2021
Cornwall Council supports the creation of a Cornish Assembly.
May 10, 2021
I have yet to hear an argument for retaining the Union. What we can be certain is that Independence of Scotland and the reasons made by the SNP will go on and on distracting for more important issues at Westminster. Give the Scots their Independence and leave them to the reality
May 10, 2021
well said.
May 10, 2021
I donāt know what benefit the English get from the Union
May 10, 2021
Glen, you are right England has nothing to gain from being in the Union in fact it is positively disadvantaged and would be a much richer Country without the devolved Nations. Conversely Scotland benefits greatly from being in the Union and its biggest market is the UK not the EU. Without the money transferred to Scotland from the UK Government it would not be able to afford all the free services it enjoys that England does not. The people of Scotland have been constantly lied to by the SNP about the ability of Scotland to pay its way in an Independent Scotland. It would not be long after Independence that the Scottish people would find this is not the case and the trouble would really begin. Scotland also does not meet any of the criteria to rejoin the EU especially with its debt levels which are increasing this is another lie by the SNP. Therefore one should ask why would a Government of a Country that has so much to lose and nothing to gain by leaving the Union want to do so.
May 10, 2021
I do not fear Scottish independence. What I do fear is the SNP inviting a hostile nation onto our island. Our security is much enhanced by being an island that has no direct border with a foreign government, except for NI, and look at the problems that small border is causing.
May 10, 2021
I agree Major. They will never let the subject of independence go. They will always be a thorn in our side. Just go.
May 10, 2021
Mrs Murrells knows that her name will be engraved in Scottish folklore should she achieve a referendum. That is the extent of her ambition. She may have received assurances from Macron that he will support her bid to join the EU but then she will sadly realise the extent of his duplicity. It is a gift not within his grasp. Anything that annoys perfidious Albion would be a joy to him, but other member states will be disturbed at the precedent of letting a tiny, impoverished country become a full member.
May 10, 2021
Gordon Brown had a lot of good sense to impart this morning on Sky TV. We should have a forum in which to discus all aspects of the way in which the component nations of the UK relate and interact says Gordon. Why not, jaw jaw is better than hostile predictated exchange.
May 10, 2021
Please write out 100 times, “I must not use sarcasm in a serious debate”.
May 10, 2021
Was that the Nations and regions Gordon Brown, the one who created this mess in the first place. No guessing who he means by the regions, England is not recognised as a nation and gets no place at the top table unlike the devolved nations. We just get the bill. And the sad thing is not one U.K. MP squatting in an English seat sees anything wrong with this.
May 10, 2021
Should the UK government grant Scotland another independence referendum they should not allow it to take place again with the vote extended to everyone who is living in Scotland (permanently or temporarily) and of any nationality (including Russians, Chinese etc.) whilst denying the vote to Scottish people (those born in Scotland) who are living elsewhere in the UK
May 10, 2021
Totally agree with Original Richard’s comment. The Scottish Elections (Franchise and Representation) Act extended voting rights to 16-17 year olds, foreign nationals with leave to remain including refugees, and prisoners serving up to 12 months term. The foreign nationals with leave to remain are also extended rights to stand as candidates.
As of December 2020, 73,300 16-17 year olds were registered, and 157,400 foreign nationals. Figures were not available for prisoners. (source Electoral Statistics for Scotland).
Many Scots go south for work with the intention of returning to Scotland, and it would be very wrong to exclude them from voting in any future referendum.
May 11, 2021
If they leave Scotland for work surely that SHOULD deny them a vote.
May 10, 2021
Whilst it understandable that England, constantly under pressure from the SNPās anti-English rhetoric, may wish to see Scotland become independent if only for financial reasons, it should realise that the extreme socialist SNP would turn Scotland into a failed state like Venezuela as evidenced by their spending plans and lack of separation of powers as recently outlined by David Davis in Parliament.
And that a failed state in hock to the EU or perhaps even to Russia or to China on our northern border would be a disaster for us and cause far more expense than meeting the Scottish Barnet formula demands.
May 10, 2021
Most of the UK’s problems/situations of angst would disappear if in the first instance we had a UK Government. A Government that Governed for the whole of the UK not for a noisy left metro rabble.
I am still amused the ‘Secretary of State for Health and Social Care’ of the UK cannot act for the UK, only for England. So why does the position even exist!
May 10, 2021
Because they refuse to use the word, ‘England’ and prefer to call us either the UK or the Regions.
May 10, 2021
The Union is associated with everything noble about our shared history of the past couple of hundred years. Of course, there are plenty of malcontents who want emphasize its shortcomings for various questionable reasons. How tragic, that so many are willing to succumb to the ‘divide and rule’ tactics of globalism. Sadly, another sign of the times.
May 10, 2021
‘Boris’ is not to be relied upon and with slippery Gove near him who knows what will be decided. Let us imagine a vote is allowed and it is in favour of a breakup. What will ‘Boris’ do?
In my view he will concede all manner of demands made by Scotland and the impoverishment and the rapid existing diminution of England will continue.
There must therefore be an end to this and a response to the continuing toleration of anti-English politics and racism. This is to find and display resolve and to reject all Scottish demands and remove many of the benefits Scotland enjoys and has enjoyed for many years. They are no longer needed. Whether this adds to or reduces a Scottish wish for independence is a subject for speculation but further grants of power and money will not buy votes for those in Westminster who wish to retain the union.
It is time now to begin the rebuild of England and English democracy and sovereignty. Internal ‘devolution’ within England is not the answer, the creation of mayors is breaking English unity not improving it. This is well understood by proponents.
May 10, 2021
Well said Prang Wizard. Trouble is not one self serving MP in the U.K. Parliament is interested in what happens to England.
May 11, 2021
Exactly the fight analysis.
Westminster is terrified of English emancipation – even our host has backtracked on the subject which is deeply disappointing.
There can be no justification for denying England a voice. There can be no doubt that if English MPs were tasked with representing their country, the Barnett formula would have to be scrapped.
As it is, the SNP are laughing all the way to our bank. Why can’t Boris see it ?
May 10, 2021
He can do so because the last referendum was agreed by all parties at the time to be a once in a generation vote
—
EU vaccinations for all pdf Sept 2019
We voted NO to evil globalist agendas
May 10, 2021
You and your Tory colleagues would be well advised to read Alex Massieās recent piece in Spectator. Rejecting a Referendum call will only play to Nicolaās ability to whip up more anti-English sentiment in the longer term. Alex suggests a joint Westminster/Whitehall/Holyrood task force should produce a definitive white paper to provide Scots with the information they should have by right before a Referendum to decide on Independence. Thereās much more in his proposals to recommend it and it enables Boris to seize the initiative.
May 10, 2021
In the first instance the UK government and Parliament would not need to do anything apart from decline to provide the necessary UK legal authorisation for a repeat referendum, and how that passive response was received by the Scots would depend on the stated grounds for refusal.
“Wait and see how Brexit actually pans out” seems to be a perfectly reasonable argument, given that Nicola Sturgeon has made a big thing of it, for example in her interview with Andrew Marr yesterday:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/09052101.pdf
“But weāve just been taken out of the European Union, weāve just been taken out of the single market. You donāt have to go far in Scotland right now to find companies that are paying a very heavy price for that,
including fishing industry companies that were promised the earth and not delivered.”
If the Scots are not already grateful that they have been vaccinated against Covid-19 much faster than EU populations then over the coming years other reasons for changing their minds about Brexit may appear.
It is worth recalling that at one time many Scots complained that England had dragged them into the EEC against their will, they have not always leaned towards eurofederalism.
May 10, 2021
Just seen this news (with the usual chill),
‘”Boris Johnson to relax rules on building new homes”
Goodbye green belt, hello favelas.’
May 10, 2021
That’s a worrying development for the natural world and for feeding the nation.
May 10, 2021
“No man has a right to fix the boundary to the march of a nation- no man has the right to say to his country thus far shall thou go and no further” Charles Stewart Parnell
May 10, 2021
Isn’t it the case that when the referendum was won by the Unionists in 2014, the separatists were prepared to leave the EU, which they would surely have had to do if they had by some perverse mischance won? Why does no-one point this out to them now that they are using Brexit as an excuse for overriding their previous assurances that this decision was for at least a generation?
May 10, 2021
Ah Rose the case for UK is lost- we cannot stop the inevitable happening especially after the present Monarch passes- the present situation just cannot be held- England is jyst too Tory Conservative- far too much una duce una voce without question- Wales is Wales Labour- Scotland is SNP and wants its’ independence then from it all comes next year where Sinn Fein in NI is likely to overtake the Unionists and I have no doubt in my mind that the great game changer for it all was brexit itself. The UK will just disolve and come back again in a different form- but heavens knows?
May 10, 2021
Reading the MsM’s comments on the repositioning of the ‘Left’ following their recent loses. I am reminded and we should all be reminded as with all elections, no single sector ‘wins’ it is just others ‘loose’.
The only way that the UK Government can become a Government for the whole of the UK, is to release more of the centralised control to the local communities. The so-called ‘Red Wall’ will thrive given the opportunities to become self reliant. In the same way the Scottish regions will thrive once out from under the yoke of London and Edinburgh. Why do we treat yet punish these so-called ‘red wall’ regions differently to the regions in Scotland. You could reason they are paying so others can extract the Michael
The one size fits all, were a National Government dances to the tune of a noisy metro minority is not a Government of the People.
Since Brexit(even this partial Brexit) the UK Government has ‘sort’ of been released from being a marginal large local council. Its time to move on. It should now evolve into a National Government, with centrally focusing on the UK’s dealings with outside Nations. While internally freeing people to thrive and move beyond the spiral of the endless poverty trap. Yes it can help in coordination of internal affairs when called on, but these should largely be the responsibility of Communities and the Regions themselves. Oversite is one thing, but Dictating is highlighting what is Bad on main land Europe and their Commission. The UK doesn’t not and is not the place for a mini-me of the EU Commission style of rule.
May 10, 2021
An illustration of the Flawed, therefore manipulation of the way we are ruled. I can hear the TV in another room tuned to the BBC news, they are running with reports on what the PM is going to announce to the Nation later today. Then theorising on what it means with all the talking head input – so no one needs to tune into the PM now, as we all know the facts.
Nicola Sturgeon was a past master on these announcement, and the BBC in their anti UK stance gave her the platform to speak to the ‘whole UK’. This Scots only political figure was privy to all the UK Government’s Covid proposals but rather then permit the UK PM to tell the Nation, she would appear on the UK National BBC TV (Not just BBC Scotland) and announce to the whole UK on the next moves to save the people.
May 10, 2021
In the 2014 referendum Scots were told to vote No to independence to guarantee their membership of the EU.
We have left the EU
They deserve another referendum.
The Conservative Party, like the EU, is anti democracy.
I heard yesterday the Tory government is going to change the voting system for mayors to first past the post – as the current voting system, where you express a second preference, has produced too many Labour mayors.
The Tory Party disgusts me.
May 10, 2021
The current voting system for mayors is too complex for many to understand, which was why – apparently – a higher-than-ever number of spoiled ballots have been announced.
If you have ever attended a local election count, you will see that where, for instance, there are 3 councillor positions to be elected, some voters think they can give all 3 of their votes to one candidate, and others (to my certain knowledge) are convinced that they may only vote for one candidate in each Party.
May 11, 2021
Too complex? Really? It is only too complex if someone can’t count to 2, and there are very, very few people in the UK not capable of doing that.
May 11, 2021
Local elections don’t use the Supplementary Vote system, they use FPTP.
I’m pleased that you think FPTP is a bad and confusing system with all the different ways it is applied. I agree. Much better to move everything to STV in England (it’s already used in Northern Ireland and Scotland) which will retain the best elements of the current system (voting for individuals, 100% maintenance of the constituency link) while delivering a much more representative outcome.
May 10, 2021
How foolish and disrespectful that our MPs are to manipulate the minds of the children of the previous generations who gave so much to preserve this Great Britain in order to carryout their own agenda in collusion with foreign forces who wish to divide and rule.
May 10, 2021
Surely Boris’s best course of action is to allow a referendum, and then successfully make the case for retaining the Union?
May 11, 2021
If the PM were to keep allowing referendums over and over again which were only intended to be held on important constitutional matters once in a generation, he would be devaluing our democracy and our constitution.
May 10, 2021
Surely Sturgeon’s game is simply to try to maximise the funding provided by the rest of the UK to Scotland?
Acyually securing independence would be a disaster for her.
May 10, 2021
I find it very distressing that even a Unionst such as Sir John feels it necessary to try to prove that Scottish voters do not currently want seperatism, in order to refuse the SNP’s demand for another referendum. In other words he is conceding that if there comes a moment when a majority of Scottish voters want to leave the Union then they can do so. What sort of patriotism is that? The UK is ONE country, and no part of it has the right to just walk away. No patriotic government anywhere in the WORLD would allow this. The Spanish government will not allow the Catalans or the Basques to destroy Spain, the Belgiian government will not allow the Flemish to declare UDI and the US government would certainly not allow any of their 50 States to split away. Why not? Because these countries are not run by traitors who are willing to see their country broken up. In Britain, however, Boris has split Northern Ireland off from the UK already and is refusing to tell the Scots that they are now, and will ALWAYS be, part of the United Kingdom.
Some people will say that the situation in Scotland is different, that it is a real country. No it isn’t, and hasn’t been for centuries. We cannot go back in history, or where do we stop? What about the Kingdom of Mercia? Or the Kingdom of Northumbria? No, these cannot just walk away, any more than can Scotland, the Isle of Wight or Pimlico. We are ONE country now, we are ONE family, and anyone who wants to split it and destroy it is a traitor. Why isn’t this argument made by any so-called Conservative Unionist, rather than conceding the SNP’s case and fighting on their ground? The IRA once said that they only had to be lucky once. The same goes for the SNP. Every referendum that confirms the Union just leads to subsequent demands for another referendum. If they ever won one, however, does anyone believe there would ever be another?
How can this never-ending debate be good for the government of the UK (including in Sotland)? Of course it isn’t. It’s a gargantuan distraction and waste of effort and resources. It has to stop. But, as I have said, another referendum that is won by the Unionists will NOT end this debate, as the SNP will just wait a year or two and then demand another one. No. The only way to end the debate is to say, very clearly, that there will NEVER be another referendum and that Scotland is FOREVER part of the UK. The SNP complained when EU powers were reclaimed by the British government, saying these should go to Holyrood. But they want to rejointhe EU, thereby giving them away again. So they are saying they prefer power to be held by Brussels than Westminster. That shows what traitors they are. Why does the government not call them out as such? We need to move the debate from percentages to principles. The UK is greater than the sum of its parts. Scotland walking away would harm the Scots, of course, but also everyone else in Britain. The Scots do NOT have the right to do this. They cannot destroy OUR shared country. They need to be told this.
May 10, 2021
Why is the UK Government pandering to the SNP? a nasty regime that is destroying Scotland. The only way they win at elections is by promising free services that will never be delivered without England providing the the money and by giving young people the vote who have been radicalised through SNP education. Why should the English taxpayer subsidise a better life style for the people of Scotland that they do not enjoy themselves. They say the definition of madness is to try the same thing and expect a different result this is the UKs approach to Scottish issues. It might also help if the BBC was pulled up for its reporting I was interviewed in a precinct by a reporter and told him all the reasons why Scotland could not be Independent and it was all cut except for a few words.
Itās time to stand up to the SNP and call their bluff give them the referendum they are not prepared for and cannot win before it is too late. Giving them more powers and more money will not work as people will continue to vote for them in the knowledge that they can squeeze more and more out of the UK Government if they do. Those that say it is to do with Brexit are wrong, this dislike of the English and a wish to leave the Union has been going on for many years before Brexit came along.
BTW I know because I live in Scotland and have done for 27 years.
May 10, 2021
Agree SUsan. I lived there for 15 years and was amazed at the hatred directed towards the English. As you say, it’s been there a long time and nothing to do with Brexit but more ignorance.
May 11, 2021
My memories of Scottish Anglophobia go back to the seventies.
May 10, 2021
The Government keeps missing the Big Picture. Scotland isn’t about Independence it is about those that can, not being allowed to do, so society is held back, because of the Central Control Freakery from a Left leaning Metro cabal in Downing Street.
Conversely the opposite can be said of the Brexit Handling not only of NI but also fishing. There appears to be a dispute with the EU over fishing quotas and licences particularly from those in the EU State of France. The Brexit Agreement on fishing was agreed with the EU Commission, there is to be a reduction in quotas etc. – simple. The Common fisheries policy (CFP) has its own Commissioner and manager of the resource. Logic is the agreement going forward isn’t between the UK Government and EU States individually, but the UK and the EU Fisheries Commissioner. It should be the EU Commissioner that proposes to the UK Government which of their boats should be granted a licences and the size of the catch they will be permitted to take. Then the argument shifts to between the EU fishermen and their own EU Government and not the Channel Islands or the UK. But again the UK Government wants to say look at ‘ME’
There used to be a theory that the PM as London Mayor knew how to delegate, as in let the people close to the ‘coal face’ cause the results. It now appears lets ‘batten’ everything down so we can say we are in ‘charge’ and the achievements are ‘ours’ as individuals in charge – not Society, the People as a whole. That is courting destruction and disaster for the sake of vanity.
May 10, 2021
Why can we not reverse devolution in its entirety and put a final nail in the coffin of all this nonsense started by that id..t Blair.
May 10, 2021
Have you blogged about McCrypto yet ?
Haven’t read for a while.
The Mc’s to keep it topical
May 10, 2021
Some people who voted SNP oppose independence. They were assured by Sturgeon the vote was just about devolved matters, not independence, until after she won when this turned out to be untrue. The independence debate is a useful way for her to deflect from her woeful record on COVID, health, education, and a host of other matters.
May 10, 2021
One of the big criticisms of the EU referendum was that Leave voters did not know exactly what they were voting for.
This should not be allowed to happen with Indy Ref#2. Lay it all out how their share of debt will be calculated for a start.
May 10, 2021
The UK government should stall the referendum for the reasons already given at the start – no majority of votes in favour of pro-independence parties for a start. When the time eventually comes and a referendum can’t be held back any more the terms for the separation should be negotiated before the referendum – this will waste another couple of years. Then the referendum can take place with the voters knowing exactly what they’ll get if they vote for independence and the sheer weakness of the case should be apparent.
May 10, 2021
“He can do so because there is a big majority for the Union in the U.K. Parliament.”
Why not ask English taxpayers what they think ?
When they all know just how much we subsidise Scotland Wales and NI, they will demand changes.
It’s the main reason why we aren’t allowed an English Parliament, even one with our MPs sitting as the representatives of England.
It’s a scandal that even MPs like you, Sir John, are not demanding an end to the hated Barnett formula.
Why not ?
May 11, 2021
The will of the Scottish people was sought in 2014 and settled. A country’s life is much longer than any human’s so it cannot keep having polls on its break-up every few years, even “a generation” (25-30 years) is too soon.
We certainly cannot have a referendum every time a nationalist thinks they have their nose in front in a sampling poll. On that basis it would only be a matter of time before they become independent, even if the will of the people over time were dead set against it.
If there is to be anotehr poll, let the alternatives be Quebec style: full independence, with all that means (share of debt, no say in the piund, own defence etc) or full integation (end of devolution).
May 11, 2021
Who knows how big is the demographic change for a Nationalist/Republican majority registered in the recent Northern Ireland Census? It seems that a irish border poll is in the offing: Sir John would be well advised (if he really want to keep united the United Kingdom) to vote the transfer of Westminster fiscal subsidies for NI to Scotland…