The Afghan war

President Biden’s decision to pull US troops out of Afghanistan rapidly has left that country fighting a nasty civil war with claims from the Afghan government side that there was insufficient consultation and no orderly handover. They feel their position against the Taliban is now weakened. According to media stories there was little consultation or discussion with NATO allies either, even though our military has done a lot to support the US led action over the years.

Let me begin by praising and thanking all the western forces and especially UK military personnel who risked their lives or gave their lives in this long conflict. They successfully confronted some extreme violence and gave Afghanistan a chance of a better life under a democratic system that respects the rights of all people in the country and offers opportunity to women and girls as well as to the men. This makes how we leave important, as the wish must be that the home grown government and forces for democracy that we have left behind now have the training and equipment to stabilise their country and resist violence against people and the governing system.

I agree that we needed to make an orderly exit, disengaging our forces from direct conflict on the streets and supporting benign local military policing to create and keep a peace. The whole long Afghan war has highlighted how difficult it is for a foreign invading force to help establish a stable freedom loving democratic system once it has with skill and some loss of life swept aside a brutal undemocratic regime. We do not and should not wish to become colonial governments, however well intentioned, acting as supporters but seen as puppet masters of local governments that emerge from the civil wars. The US and UK got to our own democratic systems by civil wars and wars of independence our ancestors fought, largely without foreign intervention.

As governments will say to us, we need to learn the lessons – again – of the Afghan interventions. They seem to be the same as elsewhere. A brave military campaign can only succeed if there is the political skill to see through a lasting peace that enough local people buy into. A war can only be won if there are enough people in the country that back the intervention by the foreign power and see it as helpful. Viet Nam showed how horribly wrong such interventions can go when the US misjudges the military and the political realities at the same time.

126 Comments

  1. Peter
    July 8, 2021

    No foreign interventions in Afghanistan have ever succeeded going back to the 19th century.

    1. Ed M
      July 8, 2021

      Tony Blair in his hubris, ignored all this (power gone to his head). I wish people took Shakespeare and his tragedies more seriously. Shakespeare wasn’t just a great poet / playwright but also a wise man.

    2. Mark
      July 8, 2021

      Indeed. I am reminded of Kipling writing in 1890:

      When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
      And the women come out to cut up what remains,
      Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
      An’ go to your Gawd like a soldier.

      It expresses the utter futility of attempted intervention in a devastating way that remains unsurpassed.

      1. glen cullen
        July 8, 2021

        Thanks Mark – Kipling had such empathy with the common soldier and wrote with passion & understanding; his words are true today

        1. hefner
          July 10, 2021

          Oh yes, the great Rudyard who encouraged his poor eye-sighted 16-year old son John and used his connections to get him enrolled in 1914 in the Irish Guards. The son arrived in France on his 18th birthday in August 1915 and died six weeks later in front of Loos. And the great Rudyard had this ā€˜wonderfulā€™ poem, My Boy Jack, cherished by all people like you, glen.

    3. Dennis
      July 8, 2021

      Perhaps the Russian intervention into Afghanistan would have succeeded if the Americans hadn’t intervened. That US intervention assured the confining of women and no schools for girls and a horrible life for many. Another example of the US ‘helping out’.

  2. Mark B
    July 8, 2021

    Good morning.

    As governments will say to us, we need to learn the lessons ā€“ again ā€“ of the Afghan interventions.

    I have lost count the number of times the British have meddled in that part of the world. History, for which there is quite a lot, tells you that Afghanistan is a place full of tribal warlords who see fighting as as much a form of sport as kite flying, a popular pastime in those parts.

    We have wasted much time, effort, blood and gold for what. Better to do have done what Alexander the Great did – Just pass through peacefully, paying off each tribal leader on the way. Or better still, just not get involved in the first place.

    1. lifelogic
      July 8, 2021

      Indeed. Another huge and predictable mistake by governments wasting thousands of lives and Ā£billions 0f taxpayers money for a negative return. A shame they do not stick to kite flying.

    2. Ed M
      July 8, 2021

      I wish someone would just build a great big statue of Cyrus the Great outside Parliament to remind someone of a REAL leader with real principles from the past. He had real power (the first Emperor of the Persian Empire i think) but used that power benevolently for the benefit of those who he ruled over. He was such a good man (humble, generous-spirited, just, wise and courageous etc – as well as highly cultured) that even non-Persians wanted Cyrus to conquer them so that they wouldn’t be under the yoke of their own political leaders (i.e. the Babylonians).
      Both the Romans and Greeks (above all Alexander the Great) thought Cyrus was the ultimate heroic leader. And so did the Christians and the Jews (in the sense that Cyrus is described as ‘anointed’ in the Old Testament. ‘Anointed’ basically means holy man. Not forgetting this man wasn’t even a Jew but a ‘Persian’ / Zoroastrian (i.e. ‘pagan’).

      Zorastrian

    3. Timaction
      July 8, 2021

      Indeed. We should never have gotten involved in the first place. Other than supporting the US, I see no reason or rational in getting involved in that war or any other in that region. Just the ego’s of the politicos who have no real risk in their decisions. Those who made the decisions for war should be accountable, especially Blair and Cameron!

  3. Ian Wragg
    July 8, 2021

    Never mind, China will step into the void. It’s just what they need to get so.e military bases nearer the west.
    I assume they will fail when the tribes start to kick back.
    No doubt Britain will be overrun by migrants wanting 0to carry on their skirmishes elsewhere.

    1. turboterrier
      July 8, 2021

      Ian Wragg
      You assume quite correctly, simply because all the time the neighbouring countries offer the Taliban safe havens to train, replenish their weapons and regroup, who ever is in there in reality are just pissing into the wind. More of the population will move out and make for safer countries. AKA The UK.

    2. J Bush
      July 8, 2021

      “No doubt Britain will be overrun by migrants wanting 0to carry on their skirmishes elsewhere”

      It would appear that is already happening. Polite words cannot express my anger that my taxes are being spent funding 24/7 protection for those who have allowed this to happen. And that is ALL of them, including Blair onwards.

      Why should we have to ‘run the gauntlet’ every day, whilst those who instigated it, are given tax funded protection?

    3. Mitchel
      July 8, 2021

      Iran possibly.Less so China.China,Russia and Iran mainly want the US out of their backyard.

  4. DOM
    July 8, 2021

    British and US forces who bravely gave their lives and their limbs in this religious conflict should not have had to endure the incompetence and sheer treachery of those who gave them their orders from on high. Some say that political leaders do not act in the best interests of our forces and our nation and in this case that accusation was corroborated by the evidence of failure

    I recall on Top Gear some years ago three ex-Paras who had fought in Afghanistan. All had limbs missing. One lad had both legs blown off. One had both arms taken off. One saw his best mate blown to pieces. The bravery was truly humbling. I’m tearful even thinking of these lads who gave their all and for what? They come back to a country whose leaders refuse to condemn the desecration of our most sacred symbols of remembrance to the fallen and crippled in war by Marxist scum and racist bigots with hate and revenge in their hearts.

    Since Thatcher was felled by the sewer rats in the party the UK has become a rancid, decaying corpse of a country

    Lions led by decrepit donkeys and political parasites

    1. MiC
      July 8, 2021

      You obviously LOVE war.

      1. Micky Taking
        July 8, 2021

        Typical cynicism from you, when in fact the point is to try to secure PEACE.

      2. SM
        July 8, 2021

        That is a peculiar response, even by your standards, MiC.

      3. Timaction
        July 8, 2021

        You obviously can’t read or understand the feelings of our Nation against war, particularly those initiated by your hero, Blair.

    2. DavidJ
      July 8, 2021

      +1

    3. Everhopeful
      July 8, 2021

      And governments leave them out on the streets..homeless and destitute.

    4. Fedupsoutherner
      July 9, 2021

      A great post Dom. Our lads have suffered greatly at the hands of wimps with foolish actions and deeds.

  5. turboterrier
    July 8, 2021

    What a cost for all the lives lost especially our men and women who obeyed their orders and went to try and make a difference and payed the ultimate price.
    Afghanistan is and always be an enigma and no major power who has tried military intervention has succeeded.
    The ultimate answer to the problem has to be political consultation and support..
    The differences between the opposing parties can and will only be settled around the bargaining table for in reality Afghanistan is the world’s Northern Ireland., compounded by the major source of income for the poorest being opium. If the best of the best world leaders past and present have the vision and respect,support from the rest of the world to carry out ongoing negotiations and start with the expectations of the common people then alas I fear nothing will change and the internal slaughter and corruption will continue.
    .

  6. No Longer Anonymous
    July 8, 2021

    China will deal with it.

  7. Sea_Warrior
    July 8, 2021

    Vietnam was a mess but whenever the NVA took the field, en masse, against US forces it was defeated. Even the final surge would have been defeated by US air power. The decision by the States to withdraw its air-power and other forces from Bagram was a massive blunder.
    What should I now expect from the immigration figures here? Will most of the Afghan population now start fleeing across the borders? Will they all start moving westwards, to France? Will our PM give them all sanctuary in the UK, so they can further fracture our cohesiveness as a nation? Or has Johnson not even bothered to think on the problem?

    1. formula57
      July 8, 2021

      @ Sea Warrior ” Will most of the Afghan population now start fleeing across the borders?” – likely so, which is why the old treaties and conventions dealing with immigration and asylum are no longer appropriate in the modern world. When the few of revolutionary elites moved, they could be accommodated easily enough, the many too many of large swathes of populations cannot be.

    2. Dave Andrews
      July 8, 2021

      The interpreters recruited by Western forces need some consideration, but let Tony Blair pay for them. Once he’s bankrupt, move on to his cabinet colleagues at the time before any taxpayer money is paid.

      1. glen cullen
        July 8, 2021

        The interpreters are no special case, their contract of employment was the same as any other Afghan employed by the British Army, including labourers, cleaners, kitchen staff, maintenance staff, local police, builders etc
        The media liked them because they speak English in interviews and describe the hardship of their life and the regionā€¦..so we started to bring a few back to the UK, then a few more. Thereā€™s an army camp in Salisbury plain that houses hundreds of interpreters with many more in Afghan wanting the same treatment and benefits. The magic words are ā€˜ My life is in danger from the Talibanā€™
        But what of all the ā€˜otherā€™ forgotten people we employed ?

    3. Iain Moore
      July 8, 2021

      Yep, big problem heading our way, and one thing you can be sure of the Government won’t be planning for it, all the pull factor treaties on the books won’t be changed, and Johnson will probably say we are obligated to turn parts of our country into Afghan enclaves.

  8. Ed M
    July 8, 2021

    ‘The whole long Afghan war has highlighted how difficult it is for a foreign invading force to help establish a stable freedom loving democratic system’ – we all knew that BEFORE the war. It was a daft, political war (like the Iraq War) instigated by politicians whose power had gone to their heads.
    Yes to wars when necessary. I’m sorry for our great military seriously let down by political leaders here and in the USA.

  9. Ed M
    July 8, 2021

    ‘Vietnam showed how horribly wrong such interventions can go’ – a bloody stupid war initiated by politicians where power had gone to their heads. No lessons learned when our great country was taken to war in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    1. formula57
      July 8, 2021

      @ Ed M – Exactly so! As for lessons, even Harold Wilson knew that it is fine to allow the Americans to join our wars but it is always folly to join those they start.

      (Credit due to President Joe, for at least he avoided images of helicopters lifting Americans off the embassy roof as they scuttled out, asses whipped.)

    2. miami.mode
      July 8, 2021

      But surely Ed, Vietnam, as with WW2, was driven by a fear of communism whereas Afghanistan was a response to terrorism. What politicians don’t seem to realise is that many of these countries do not want to change to a western type of democracy even though in the long run their lives will be better.

      1. Micky Taking
        July 8, 2021

        Interesting how communism is NEVER accomplished willingly.

      2. glen cullen
        July 8, 2021

        ā€˜ā€™countries do not want to change to a western type of democracyā€™ā€™

        Religious zealots and tribal warlords donā€™t want change

      3. Ed M
        July 8, 2021

        You’re idolising ‘fear’ sir (and fear just begets more fear and the ideological enemy grows and spreads).
        WW2 and Vietnam profoundly different (although overlap – but more difference than overlap).
        WW2 was about defeating Nazis (a group of people of). Not Nazism (an ideology). There was a clear objective and war plan. Plus, our leaders had no real choice. They had to go to war against the Nazis, or less the rest of Europe, even the UK, would have been taken over by them.
        But not with Vietnam. The Vietnamese weren’t planning to invade the USA, obviously. Vietnam miles from the USA. Also, terrible as Communism is, it’s not as if millions of Vietnamese were loudly supporting their leader in military campaigns against the West. Nor was Vietnam nearly as dangerous to us as Nazi Germany.
        Germany was a clear and present danger. Vietnam wasn’t. But intoxicated by power, the US leaders couldn’t resists arm-chair war games in this part of the world. If they’d been more wise, they would have focused more on the weakness of Communism – and let it implode in on itself which it did a decade or too later. And the writing was on the walls. Communism isn’t sustainable in the long-term. For all kinds of reasons. Above all, because it’s just inherently flawed.

        1. jon livesey
          July 8, 2021

          ” They had to go to war against the Nazis, ….”

          In reality, though, the US did not “go to war”. They tried to remain neutral in the European war for a week after Pearl Harbour, until Germany declared war on them.

          And no, there wasn’t the slightest chance of Germany defeating the UK in 1942, since German armies were in a serious crisis on the Eastern front and Germany itself was blockaded. Hitler had already decided – in July 1940 – the an invasion of the UK was “infeasible”.

          You should consider the irony of asking people to learn lessons from history, when you are fictionalising the history in advance.

          1. Ed M
            July 8, 2021

            @Jon,

            ‘You should consider the irony of asking people to learn lessons from history, when you are fictionalising the history in advance.’

            – Steady on. That’s a bit sharp. Like road-rage in the comments …

            ‘In reality, though, the US did not ā€œgo to warā€. They tried to remain neutral in the European war for a week after Pearl Harbour, until Germany declared war on them’ – I think most historians would agree the USA was going to go to war against Germany. Not question of if but when. That’s the key.

            ‘And no, there wasnā€™t the slightest chance of Germany defeating the UK in 1942’ – that’s a different argument. The argument is Nazi Germany at beginning of the war and how hostile it was. As it is, Germany could have invaded Britain in 1940. But failed to because of hubris or whatever.

  10. Sakara Gold
    July 8, 2021

    History tells us that in counter-insurgency warfare, particularly when “regime change” is involved, it is impossible to “win” when the insurgents are well organised and have a safe haven for R&R, re-supply and recruitment. This the Taleban had in the mountains over Afghanistan’s southern border.

    After 20 years of savage warfare, from where I’m sitting it does look remarkably like another Vietnam.

    If anybody is interested in why the British Army was unable to win in Afghanistan (at the fourth attempt!) and lost ~450 men with ~1500 maimed, Lt Commander Frank Ledwidge’s excellent book “Loosing Small Wars, British Military Failure in Iraq and Afghanistan” spells out the reasons.

    Cameron’s government was so desperate to get out of Afghanistan that shamefully, enlisted men engaged with the enemy were made redundant in the field. Ever since, the British Army has had problems with recruitment.

  11. Andy
    July 8, 2021

    The failed Bush administration – related to the Brexitists in its ideology – is responsible for much global carnage. Afghanistan, Iraq. Appalling.

    Meanwhile in a desperate attempt to cover up the shortage of lorry drivers they have created, the Brexitists are going to relax HGV driver hours. Because we all know it is smart letting tired people drive 40 tonnes mobile missiles. More Brexit deaths are coming our way.

    Itā€™s also been confirmed that young Britons are not be eligible to apply for seasonal work in Europe unless they are dual citizens. I did a couple of ski seasons when I was in my 20s. No more. The Brexitists have removed that right. And, no. The British people I worked with werenā€™t posh. They mostly came from working class backgrounds. Rights stolen by Brexitists.

    And in Parliament yesterday Brexitist Bernard Jenkin had the audacity to blame the EU for the crisis faced by touring musicians. Tell it to the public inquiry Mr Jenkin – because one day youā€™ll have to.

    1. Original Richard
      July 8, 2021

      Andy : “The failed Bush administration ā€“ related to the Brexitists in its ideology ā€“ is responsible for much global carnage. Afghanistan, Iraq. Appalling.”

      It was the young (Andy’s definition of below 50), inexperienced and inept PM, Mr. Blair, who took the UK into the disastrous Afghanistan and Iraq conflicts.

    2. No Longer Anonymous
      July 8, 2021

      Blair was a Remainer (Afghanistan/Iraq)

      Remainers stopped us training up HGV drivers because they were convinced that we were going to remain in the EU … until Boris won his landslide and the voters said “get Brexit done.”

      My young lads (an MChem and an MB ChB/MRes – four and six year degrees) had no time to ponce around in ski resorts. One spent his summers working on paid cancer projects and the other on building sites.

      My motivations during the Brexit vote were not to see that your kids got a cushty gap year which – if they’re good enough – they still can.

    3. Original Richard
      July 8, 2021

      Andy : ā€œI did a couple of ski seasons when I was in my 20s. No more. The Brexitists have removed that right.ā€

      I cannot speak for other EU countries but it was well known when we were skiing in France in the 1980s that France would not allow UK ski instructors to teach.

      If you check via the internet you will see that UK Ski instructors were still fighting the French ESF for the right to teach in France in 2013 and 2014 despite a French court ruling in 2008 that British Instructors were allowed to work in France.

      This was a small example of EU countries using ā€œnon-tariffā€ barriers (France and ski instructor qualifications in this case) to protect their industries/economy and why we had to leave because we had reached a trade deficit of Ā£100bn/YEAR.

    4. Original Richard
      July 8, 2021

      Andy : “And in Parliament yesterday Brexitist Bernard Jenkin had the audacity to blame the EU for the crisis faced by touring musicians.”

      Of course it’s the EU’s fault because they’ re the ones making these ridiculous and spiteful rules! They could change them if they wanted.

  12. agricola
    July 8, 2021

    Viet Nam was a different ballgame. A post WW2 desire for independance that the french turned into a civil war which they lost bigtime. A corrupt South Vietnam supported by America who misread independance as a communist insurrection and expansion with the consequenses we all know. Now they are best buddies.

    Nobody read history in the case of Afgahnistan, British, Russian or in the end American. Afganistan has always been a feudal lawless corrupt islamic state that insists on staying in the Middle Ages, and best left there. The real enemy was a very rich saudi, Osama Bin Laden who had a hate of America and hid in Afgahnistan. The Biden americans decided they had had enough arms testing for the present and skullked of in the night. The so called Afghan Army are surrendering to the Taliban in droves who are now rearming on all the goodies left behind. By all accounts the Chinese now fancy an easy route to Middle East oil. As they have no love of muslims, watch this space.

    1. Mitchel
      July 9, 2021

      The Soviets went into Afghanistan with great reluctance and against their better judgement.If I remember correctly there was some sort of civil war within the ruling Afghan communist party.
      But it will all be “different next time”-Napoleon read assiduously the detail of Charles XII’s invasion of Russia/Ukraine which destroyed the Swedish Empire (and “Invincible”Sweden as a great power) but went ahead even so.And I’m sure Hitler was fully aware of both.

  13. Roy Grainger
    July 8, 2021

    We are constants berated for being colonial imperialists so the logical conclusion is we should never get involved in “regime change” in another country ever again to refute this claim.

  14. Bryan Harris
    July 8, 2021

    Withdrawal of troops from Afghan by the US is just another example of how the current US administration are making things worse. They leave Afghan in a terrible state.

    India may be forced into helping fight the Taliban purely to keep them out of India, otherwise Russia and China are sitting on the sidelines working out how to increase their status, power and control of the area.

    Without some external support the Afghan government will fall, and the country will become a Taliban state… all thanks to the cowardly removal of US troops. So what was it all for? Why did so many good people have to die if the US was just going to walk away from the problem at the end of the day?

    1. Mark
      July 8, 2021

      The Russians already have a bruising failure from their attempted intervention in Afghanistan. It was their Vietnam. They are not going to be in any hurry to repeat the failure. They have enough to be going on with dealing with Chechens etc.

      1. Dennis
        July 8, 2021

        Perhaps the Russians failed in Afghanistan due to the US intervention of sophisticated weapons. Didn’t that all start with a fellow in a cocktail party talking about some money deal with Pakistan’s Zia Ul Haq so it was all a caper to benefit a few people, including weapons manufactures of course. That sounds so plausible knowing the CIA et al.

      2. Bryan Harris
        July 8, 2021

        Yes, agree – Russia wouldn’t want to repeat that lesson – but they still want to have influence in the area.

        The Chinese seem to be playing both sides, government and Taliban, but they will have recognized what a death trap the country is, so are unlikely to get directly involved either

      3. Mitchel
        July 9, 2021

        The Chechen President is a loyal lieutenant of Mr Putin.Chechen forces were used in Syria.You are behind the times.

    2. Ed M
      July 8, 2021

      @Bryan,
      Communism like Islamic Terrorism is inherently flawed. Even as Americans were dropping bombs on Vietnam, they should have had the nous to see Communism would one day soon unravel by itself (with some help from people such as Pope John Paul II and his friends in Poland). And it had nothing to do with American bombs. That just aggravated the average Vietnamese even more and turn them more Communist.
      When the USA went into Iraq, that stoked up, in an important way, a big Islamic Terrorist response in what we saw happen with the Islamic terrorists in Syria. And terrible as it was having Saddam in power, at least Iraq then served as a foil to Iran.

  15. Nig l
    July 8, 2021

    459 lives wasted. If you include the chaos in the Middle East caused by the removal of Saddam, nasty but a bulwark against Iran and Ghaddiffi, held Libya together, the names of Blair, Reid, Brown, Cameron and Bush should be on a wall of shame. The troops were totally sold out neither having the equipment nor numbers to be successful nor and no political plan.

    Only a couple of days ago, the government still in denial, Leo Docherty gave a craven response to a genuine concern about the resurgence of terrorists organisations there saying they would be keeping an eye on the situation and reserve the right to take whatever action is necessary. B.S.

    The same Leo Docherty jumping in Johnny Mercerā€™s grave who resigned owing to the governments dissembling and sell out of the veterans in NI. Docherty is an ex army man and represents a Para Regiment constituency. In my view of you want an example of climbing the greasy pole of political advancement over doing the honourable thing, look no further.

    Well done England. The best quote from a pundit. ā€˜Gareth Southgate has shown true leadership. Something sadly lacking in the rest of the country for the last 18 monthsā€™ I would add ā€˜and valuesā€™

    Why do politicians think that an apology without any thing further, dare I say it resigning, carries any weight whatsoever? Deservedly it invites contempt.

  16. Alan Jutson
    July 8, 2021

    You should never get involved in an overseas war unless you have a well supported and proper strategy, with and end goal to succeed.
    Sadly we have seen this sort of result many times before, when will politicians understand that you cannot fight someone else’s war, for their democracy, they have to do it themselves.
    John you correctly highlighted that both in the US and at home in the UK we took centuries to get to form some sort of a working democracy, so why do our politicians think it can happen elsewhere in a few years.
    My heart goes out to all of our families that have be affected by our involvement.

    1. Dennis
      July 8, 2021

      It took centuries for the UK to get our form of democracy but that’s ‘cos it wasn’t known as a system for that that length of time. It is now so it must be quicker to instigate it now in other countries, if they want it.

      Car manufacturing in countries with no tradition of making cars don’t start off with 1899 models.

      1. Alan Jutson
        July 8, 2021

        Methinks your comparisons about car manufacturing rather strange.

        You simply hire in the designers and engineers until your own workforce are experienced when you start a car plant from scratch, you cannot do that with Politicians, where you need to carry the people with you, and at the same time try to reflect their wishes/desires.
        There are still many in this country who think we do not have a true democracy yet, after all the past years of trying. Some would even say we have a democratic dictatorship, as you can only vote every 5 years, so in effect the government does what it likes after it has been elected, as manifesto pledges seem to mean nothing !

    2. glen cullen
      July 8, 2021

      Correct ā€“ we canā€™t and shouldnā€™t try to fast forward third would countries with our ideals, vision and motivations, they have to walk that journey themselves
      Civil wars, religious wars and industrialisation etc have to be concluded and settled by themselves; without intervention, funding nor encouraging their young men to seek an easier life elsewhere

  17. Nig l
    July 8, 2021

    And in other news double vaxxed people will still have to take PCR tests something to do with genomic sequencing.

    Bearing in mind all countries have a testing regime and data is shared the reason is scientific gobbledygook designed to justify another unnecessary imposition by this government and why arenā€™t they negotiating with/forcing testing providers to reduce their excessive costs?

    It is about time our MPs fought for us for a change.

    1. Hat man
      July 8, 2021

      Nig 1 – Yes, more fool anyone who believed what the government/media told them.

      There are over 100 clinics and private companies providing Covid tests, according to the govt. web site. That’s how many organisations our MPs would have lobbying against them, if they tried to oppose this as individual MPs. Snouts in the trough, is what it’s all about.

      But stay safe.

    2. steve
      July 8, 2021

      Nig 1

      “people will still have to take PCR tests something to do with genomic sequencing. ”

      This data is vital to the sneaky roll out of biometric ID cards…..they’re bloody determined to get their way on this and will resort to any immoral undemocratic sneaky trick to achieve it.

      Wake up, smell the coffee.

  18. John Miller
    July 8, 2021

    I am sure the the FCO are concentrating on the attitudes and concerns of the advisers propping up an obviously inept POTUS. Mr Biden is no longer able to act cognitively, so his personal aims are unfathomable and irrelevant.

    Like our own country, the concerns and aims of the supposed leader of the government are secondary to the concerns and aims of those around him.

    1. acorn
      July 8, 2021

      Trump said last October, as per the WSJ: “He Wants All Troops in Afghanistan Home by Christmas, Going Further Than Security Adviser Robert Oā€™Brien said earlier Wednesday that 2,500 troops would stay in Afghanistan after the end of the year”. Apparently, according to this site, it is all Biden’s doing!

  19. IanT
    July 8, 2021

    John Reid – “With no shots fired”
    I think our troops fired twelve million rounds in just three years….

    We should have a law that states each member of the Cabinet should have to send at least one son (or daughter) who is over 18 to the ‘front’ if they decide to embark upon these adventures. They are after all, quite willing to send other peoples children there. Maybe they would think more carefully about the true cost in blood and grief.

    1. Timaction
      July 8, 2021

      Indeed. I wouldn’t wish this on Blairs children but he should be brought to account for his lies and misdeeds.

    2. No Longer Anonymous
      July 8, 2021

      It was certainly unacceptable that troops were sent to IED country in soft top Landrovers and with crap equipment.

  20. Mark Thomas
    July 8, 2021

    Sir John,
    I’m sure the Chinese are waiting in anticipation. With their belt and road initiative they would want more direct access to Iran. It will only be a matter of weeks before the Taliban are once more in control.
    Two decades later and we’re back to where we started. This seems to be the pattern with US-led wars.

    1. Micky Taking
      July 8, 2021

      China’s leaders play the waiting game – Tibet and next Afghanistan, Pakistan etc.

    2. Mitchel
      July 8, 2021

      I doubt China wants to get involved.They and the Russians will probably seek a cordon sanitaire by supporting the neighbouring “stans”-there is an active Russian base in Tajikistan where a number of Afghan units have fled to;Uzbekistan has closed it’s border.The US has tried to get the central asian states to allow it to establish a presence on their territory;I don’t believe it has been successful todate.

      The old caravan route down to Iran via central asia and through the eastern Caucasus via is being resurrected.The northern part is controlled by Russia-Astrakhan and Dagestan(the latter controls the lowland pass) on the Caspian,whilst Iran and Azerbaijan last year signed a development deal to develop a trade and industrial corridor along the western shore of the Caspian.As a result of a treaty negotiated with the littoral states of the Caspian(Russia,Iran,Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan)by Vladimir Putin a few years ago,no third party militaries (ie from the West) are allowed to operate on the Caspian.Russia connects the Caspian with the Black Sea through it’s waterways-Volga River-Lenin Canal-River Don-Sea of Azov.

  21. Andy
    July 8, 2021

    The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are wars of the American right – which we, misguidedly, got caught up in.

    They are the UKā€™s two biggest foreign policy mistakes since WW2, with the exception of Tory pensioner Brexit which is evidently the biggest error.

    And the consequences of these errors are literally washing up on our shores. 5% of Channel dinghy people come from Afghanistan. 25% come from Iraq. Another 10% of dinghy people come from Syria, Yemen & Libya – other countries where British and western foreign policy has failed.

    Cutting international aid will simply guarantee they the supply of dinghy people continues. Brexit makes it harder to remove dinghy people. More dinghy people is clearly what all of you voted for. But apparently you won something.

    1. No Longer Anonymous
      July 8, 2021

      For once, I agree. We have an obligation – with or without Brexit. But I expect to see Beaconsfield taking its full share.

  22. Walt
    July 8, 2021

    Sir John,
    Your post has an altruistic gloss.
    Better conditions for Afghan women and children are desirable but were not the driver of British military deployment.
    In the 1800s the British Army was in Afghanistan to keep Russia out of India.
    In the 21st century British troops were in Afghanistan to support the American military reaction to 9/11.

    France very much intervened in the American War of Independence, supplying the Americans with much military equipment including cannon to fire on British soldiers.

    1. Timaction
      July 8, 2021

      The ONLY reason the war was lost was the Navy power on the west coast and money and armed support by the French throughout the campaign. Our true friends forever!

    2. forthurst
      July 8, 2021

      The colonists were largely patriotic English; however, the insistence of the Bank of England to have the exclusive right to issue their currency caused great hardship and turned the colonists against the British government.

      1. jon livesey
        July 9, 2021

        Wow, gold-nuttery marches on.

        1. forthurst
          July 9, 2021

          Did you study, ā€œA Modest Enquiry into the Nature and Necessity of a Paper Currencyā€ by Benjamin Franklin as part of your GCSE History syllabus? You’re obviously a highly educated person.

    3. graham1946
      July 8, 2021

      More recently didn’t they also supply Exocets to the Argentinians to fire against us in the Falklands? With such friends…………….

      1. formula57
        July 8, 2021

        @ graham1946 – History records that France ceased supplying Exocets to Argentina after President Mitterand was well and truly handbagged by the one he described as having “the eyes of Caligula and the mouth of Marilyn Monroe.” That was of course during the too brief interval when we greatly benefited from having a proper prime minister for once.

        1. ChrisS
          July 8, 2021

          Boris may not be in the same league as Margaret Thatcher but she amply demonstrated that his “Global Britain” strategy is not as daft as his Remainer detractors make out. But then Margaret was partnered by an American President light years better than Biden and Obama. In the last fifty years, the only Democratic President that has been remotely worthy of the office was Bill Clinton.

          In foreign Policy terms, Biden is shaping up to be even worse than Obama and Heaven help the Western Alliance if Harris ever inherits the job !

          1. jon livesey
            July 9, 2021

            No, no. Biden is just so clever and subtle that we don’t understand his moves.

        2. steve
          July 9, 2021

          F 57

          “History records that France ceased supplying Exocets to Argentina after President Mitterand was well and truly handbagged ”

          ……some of us know the truth, as we were involved. Consequently we know history is sometimes twisted to protect the culprit.

  23. Iain Moore
    July 8, 2021

    “They feel their position against the Taliban is now weakened.”

    The Allies have been there for 20 years, 10 longer than the occupation of Germany after WWII , and the money spent there dwarfs the Marshall plan . If they are not ready by now they never will be. I gather 1000 troops, I suppose troops we helped train, ran across the border to Tajikistan the other day rather than stay and fight the Taliban. If the people hated the Taliban then the Taliban wouldn’t be able to operate in the country, but as we see they are , and they do, so much for the value they put on liberty , women being educated etc. Sometimes a people and culture don’t want our values and can’t be changed. When Afghan men of fighting age appear on our shores claiming asylum they should be immediately sent back and told to fight for the liberty they want, for we can’t do it for them.

    1. SM
      July 8, 2021

      +1

    2. glen cullen
      July 8, 2021

      The biggest obstacle to our view of peace and a western styled democracy in Afghan is the acknowledgement that Pakistan is the main player and supporter of the Taliban

      1. Know-Dice
        July 8, 2021

        Agreed Glen, the biggest area of concern is nuclear armed Pakistan supporting the Taliban and joining forces against nuclear armed India. Will we sit on the side lines for that?

        I think it was Paddy Ashdon who said don’t go to war unless you know how to win the peace.

    3. Dennis
      July 8, 2021

      ‘ If the people hated the Taliban then the Taliban wouldnā€™t be able to operate in the country,…’ Conversely is that why the Nazis were able to operate in Poland etc. for quite a long time…?

      1. glen cullen
        July 8, 2021

        Agree ā€“ the Taliban have long knives, pointed at every Afghan that doesnā€™t comply

  24. Denis Cooper
    July 8, 2021

    Off topic, yesterday Boris Johnson walked out of the chamber just as an MP raised a point of order about an answer he had given two weeks ago:

    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2021-07-07/debates/8B2059EB-2340-4C87-929C-785FB961EF12/PointsOfOrder

    In accordance with Parliamentary convention the Speaker suggested that if the Prime Minister had misled the House then that must have been done “inadvertently”.

    In my letter printed in our local newspaper today, under the heading “This protocol is an embarrassment” – the body of the letter retains my own words, “a national humiliation” – I am not so mealy mouthed and call it was it was, “just another brazen lie”.

    Still, he wins elections, and that seems to be all that matters to Tory MPs

    1. steve
      July 8, 2021

      Denis

      “Still, he wins elections, and that seems to be all that matters to Tory MPs ”

      Interesting sentiment, Denis.

      However mine differs. I reckon Johnson would lose a General Election and probably ensure the conservatives permament unelectability. His novelty act persona has worn off – people see him for what he is i.e. no longer a likeable clown but an extremely dangerous individual doing the bidding of foreign powers and those orchestrating the great Co2 scam.

      1. glen cullen
        July 8, 2021

        Iā€™m surprised that MPs donā€™t call out the PMs CO2 policy as a scam
        A small number of MPs may hint at the ICE car ban being ridicules but the majority support it

      2. jon livesey
        July 9, 2021

        And that explains why Labour’s triumph in Batley consists of seeing a three thousand majority reduced to two hundred?

  25. Kenneth
    July 8, 2021

    We seem to make the same mistakes and that is (i) arrogantly deciding what is best for other societies; (ii) clumsily bolstering a central administration while not understanding the intricate pecking order in a web of hierarchies

    We then upset the delicate balance of power that may have taken decades (or even centuries) to establish and create countless (often violent) power struggles.

    We should keep out. It is none of our business.

  26. majorfrustration
    July 8, 2021

    This has always been “a nasty civil war” and the dream of a lasting peace is something that must be desired by both sides. Will the UK ever learn – dont get involved in “local” conflicts – Palestine, Cyprus NI.

  27. RichardP
    July 8, 2021

    I think we should be more concerned about the loss of freedom and democracy in our own country before trying to inflict regime change on others.

  28. Will in Hampshire
    July 8, 2021

    I’ve lived through six British “military intervention”, “nation-building” or “peace enforcement” operations over the years. Iraq and Afghanistan were failures; Sierra Leone was successful (although not a complete ‘silver bullet’ for the fortunes of that country); Bosnia-Hercegovina, Montenegro and Albania/Kosovo were in the middle.

    Given the immense cost of these deployments, I have drawn the conclusion that they’re generally not good value for the British taxpayer. Imagine what could have been achieved if the money spent in Afghanistan had instead been spent on equipping the Border Force and enhancing the Security Service: we could have had money left over and many lives saved while achieving the same goal of preventing terrorist threats here. I really do think that the electorate needs to remind the government that the Ministry is called the Ministry of Defence for a reason. It’s not the Ministry of Overseas Intervention. There is much more to do just to maintain effective deterrence/security in British airspace, the North Sea and the North Atlantic against Russia’s modern navy.

  29. William Long
    July 8, 2021

    My recollection is that the intervention in Afghanistan was showing signs of potential success when Bush, cheered on by Blair, decided that removing Saddam Hussein was better chance of glory for them, and went off on that tangent, removing at a stroke any effective counterbalance to Iran in the region. A recurring feature in Lord Alanbrooke’s War Diaries is his contempt for the strategic thinking abilities of his American allies, and it is clear that nothing has changed.

    1. Bill B.
      July 8, 2021

      When the Taliban offered to hand over Osama Bin Laden to them at the beginning of the Afghanistan war, the Americans weren’t interested. It obviously wasn’t about bringing Bin Laden to justice, but I have no more idea than anybody else posting here what it was really for.

  30. ChrisS
    July 8, 2021

    The West should have learnt long ago that we cannot impose our democratic model everywhere in the world.
    In countries like Afghanistan with its tribal structure it is never going to work. Best to get out and leave them to it. If the People of the country are not prepared to defend it against the Taliban, as seems to be the case, then they will have to accept whatever the outcome and its consequences.

    If the people of Western Countries do not want us to intervene in places like Afghanistan, they need to accept that we must be far more vigilant over who we allow into our countries. It seems crazy to me that our leaders seem to be happy to go on accepting people who don’t share our cultural, political or legal values. That just leaves our borders open and makes us vulnerable to more acts of terrorism.

  31. Tad Davison
    July 8, 2021

    We cannot forcefully impose democracy upon those who do not wish to live by its code. Regrettably, there are many now in the UK itself who would rather live by religious edicts and a prescriptive elitist ideology, than ‘one person,one vote’. Maybe we should give this due consideration before –

    A. We begin nation building abroad.

    B. Welcoming those who will not assimilate to the United Kingdom (and God only knows what will happen to the refugee crisis if Iran becomes embroiled in an all-out war with Israel).

    C. Joining a coalition headed by chancers and adventurers (with the exclusion of President Trump) who are so myopic, they cannot see the end game and how their actions will eventually play out.

    1. Margaret brandreth-j
      July 8, 2021

      I always enjoy reading your comments Tad along with other golden oldies , as they aren’t too extreme, however there are degrees of involvement in the ways we can influence other countries and yes these will take a long time , but if we are persistently, in some form or other, there , things can change.As people with higher degrees you all know yourselves that representatives from other countries are beginning to take back their new status to their native homes to try and mould others into a new way of thinking. Muslim women in this country are railing against the exclusion of women into mosques for prayer and throwing away their scarves and hijabs if they don’t want to be treated like 2nd class citizens. Human rights grow .

  32. L Jones
    July 8, 2021

    We must never say that our soldiers’ part in this was in vain. For many Afghan people (especially girls) as their village was guarded so that they could go about their normal lives, a light was shone into the darkness, even thought it was fleeting. Let’s hope that some might be able to keep that light burning.

  33. X-Tory
    July 8, 2021

    The Afghan war was an atrociouswaste of British lives. All politicians who apporved it are responsible for the senseless deaths and life-destroying injuries that have resulted. The conflict began because thethen Taliban government allowed al Qaida to have bases there, from which they attacked the West. The solution to this problem was simpple: destroy the bases and persuade the Taliban to kick al Qaida out. This could have been done entirely from the air, with not a single British soldier harmed. A few tactical nuclear missiles aimed at al Qaida bases – and threats to the Taliban that they wuld be next if they didn’t comply – would have created the necessary ‘shock and awe’ to achieve our goals.

    As for the appalling mission creep whereby we have now somehow morphed into warriors for global feminism and are now trying to fight for women’s ‘opportunities’ – when was that ever approved by the British people? Seriously – why should I care about opportunities for women -or indeed men – in other countries? How does that affect me? Or my family? That is a genuine question – as I cannot see the relevance of this to the lives of anyone in the UK.

    Let’s get back to basics: UK foreign policy is ONLY about promoting the UK’s national interest. NOTHING ELSE. We are not the world’s social workers. The sooner the government understands this the better it will be for every British citizen.

    1. jon livesey
      July 8, 2021

      “UK foreign policy is ONLY about promoting the UKā€™s national interest. ”

      That’s easy to say, but what happens when you can only look after UK interests by taking part in a global alliance that is predicated on US interests?

      That’s the situation we are in, and it’s the situation we have been in since 1948.

  34. Paul Cuthbertson
    July 8, 2021

    President Donald Trump had arranged and agreed to withdraw their troops by 1 May 2021. Biden deliberately extended the time frame so he could organise and seal a “deal” with his Chinese mates. All part of the globalist dictat.

  35. John McDonald
    July 8, 2021

    Dear Sir John,
    Perhaps we should apply your thinking to Crimea and Russia ?

    ” A war can only be won if there are enough people in the country that back the intervention by the foreign power and see it as helpful. Viet Nam showed how horribly wrong such interventions can go when the US misjudges the military and the political realities at the same time”

    With The exception of the 1st and 2nd World Wars this is how American Governments leave their so called friends and allies behind to face the music. Russia would be more trustworthy

    1. jon livesey
      July 8, 2021

      The two World wars are not really exceptions. In 1920 the US left France to deal with Germany after promising US intervention that never came. In 1945 the US began to withdraw from Europe, and were only persuaded to return – by Atlee and Bevin – at a cost of European countries signing up with the US dominated NATO system.

      A hegemon *always* threatens its friends and allies just as much as it threatens its enemies.

    2. Mitchel
      July 9, 2021

      Correct. To leave the EU and be on bad terms with both the EU and Russia whilst a declining USA goes into isolation (despite “America is back” repeated ad nauseam)is so stupid it’s scarcely believable.

  36. Andy
    July 8, 2021

    It is good to see Sir Keir Starmer come up with some practical solutions to sort out the mess the Brexitists have made in Northern Ireland.

    Sir Keir has called for an SPS agreement with the EU which would remove the need for most of the Brexitists checks. Nobody voted leave because they cared about sausages.

    Meanwhile the infantile bureaucrat David Frost is having another hissy fit giving the EU a two week deadline. Do the Brexitists think anyone cares what this joke of a man says? The EU has long since concluded that Frost is a useless moron. Most of us have concluded that too.

    1. MFD
      July 8, 2021

      Please define ā€œ most of usā€ , I believe you mean ā€œlā€ as tou are out of touch with common feelings

    2. Micky Taking
      July 8, 2021

      You might have said it’s good for Sir Keir to come up with ANY solutions!

    3. Peter2
      July 8, 2021

      Today’s article is specifically about “The Afgan War”
      Why are you writing this off topic rant about the EU?
      You are obsessed with one topic.
      It is unhealthy andy.

      1. jon livesey
        July 8, 2021

        Obsessives have to obsess. It’s the way of the World.

  37. forthurst
    July 8, 2021

    Whilst 9/11 was in progress, the American people were told by the MSM that the mastermind behind the attack was Osama bin Laden, although Saddam Hussein was also blamed as were the Iranians. The Americans demanded that the Taliban hand over OBL which the Taliban refused unless the Americans could provide evidence of OBL’s involvement. As the Americans did not have such evidence they invaded Afghanistan in his pursuit. They never found him although they searched high and low, till much later when he was discovered living in Pakistan where they killed him instead of arresting him and trying him before the world for orchestrating 9/11 and then buried him at sea. The only thing about this which is true is the American invasion of Afghanistan, the rest should be filed under ‘Fiction’.

    JR states we were there to ensure the education of girls and introduce democracy and stuff; perhaps he can produce a list of other countries that could be invaded to this end or as an historian perhaps he could get to the bottom of why the US really decided to invade Afghanistan and why it remained there for so long. Did they achieve their objective or did they realise there objective was unachievable?

    The Taliban are a sect within the Pashtun tribe that extends into neighbouring Iran and Pakistan. As they represent by far the largest tribal group being almost 50% of the population, if the Pashtun decide they wish to dominate the whole of Afghanistan, it is difficult to see how anyone can stop them internally.

  38. Ed M
    July 8, 2021

    Thanks to Tony Blair’s involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan War the British tax-payer has had to pay around Ā£20 Billion extra. For what? For helping to stoke up Islamic Terrorism in Syria. For leaving the Middle East without a strong Iraq that acted as a foil to Iran. And trouble in Afghanistan (and there’s always been trouble in Afghanistan). Yes, there were some pros, but overall, cons significantly worse at cost of Ā£20 Billion to British taxpayer. And profoundly worse, unnecessary lost of human life.

    1. Margaret brandreth-j
      July 8, 2021

      Could there have been a chance that TB was duped as well by intelligence and forged leaked documents?

      1. Ed M
        July 8, 2021

        ‘Could there have been a chance that TB was duped as well by intelligence and forged leaked documents?’

        – Tony Blair isn’t that thick.
        1) Hans Blix still hadn’t finished his inspections. It was a no-brainer that he had to be allowed to finish before making anyone could or should make any noises about war.
        2) Blix is the most important reason. But others too – such as who duped Blair and why (and it would have to be someone very smart indeed).

        Conspiracy theories are great. But to me, it’s the old cliche that power went to Tony Blair’s head. That’s why we went to war.

        No. I’d bet a big bet, power went to Blair’s head, he got carried away with all the power / power trip – and we went to war for this reason mainly.

      2. jon livesey
        July 8, 2021

        Blair and Campbell were the ones falsifying the documents. That’s not controversial, as fas as I know.

  39. glen cullen
    July 8, 2021

    Mark my words ā€“ over the next few months the Taliban will destroy everything the USA/UK have built, they will dismantle any western system of education & democracy and retaliate against those that supported the infidel, its there way of showing whoā€™s in powerā€¦and we will offer financial support to help them (and the poppy will grow again)

  40. steve
    July 8, 2021

    Blair & Bush should go to Afghanistan to sort out the mess they created.

    Biden is right (on this occasion) to pull US troops out. I don’t see his decision has anything to do with NATO or who funds it, no troops should have been sent there in the first place.

    1. jon livesey
      July 8, 2021

      Right in what sense? Did US troops go to Afghanistan for some strategic purpose, and has that purpose been achieved?

      If all Biden achieves is an end to US involvement, then it’s about as “right” as the fall of Saigon.

  41. acorn
    July 8, 2021

    Boris, once again, did a PMQ session, where it hopefully will have become obvious to the above median intelligence leave voter; that he was talking bullshit numbers to every question that required a quantitative answer. I say that as an experienced data miner and number cruncher.

    As far as Boris is concerned, Parliament is no longer of any consequence. Particularly demonstrated by his walking out of the HoC before Sammy of the DUP, got to ask his question. There goes the Unionist bit of the Conservative and Unionist Party.

    Everybody in Westminster and Whitehall would jump at a chance to get rid of Northern Ireland and are depending on the USA and the EU to appear to be putting overwhelming pressure on the UK to do so.

    1. jon livesey
      July 8, 2021

      Pressure on the UK to do so? Has it occurred to you that for the UK to “get rid” of NI would be a complete violation of the GFA? We are committed *not* to change the status of NI without the permission of the NI people. That is the entire message of the GFA.

      Your “overwhelming pressure” means absolutely nothing, and under the GFA the permission of the people of NI means everything. Under the GFA we simply cannot say “Oops, pressure, we quit”. Legally, it cannot happen.

    2. glen cullen
      July 8, 2021

      Under this so called patriotic Tory government, I could see the sell-out of Gibraltar, the Falkland Island and the further sell-out of NI

    3. Mark B
      July 9, 2021

      The only saving grace, at least as far as the Tory Party and its MP’s are concerned, is that he wins elections. He has both them, and by extension us, as hostages.

  42. Iain Gill
    July 8, 2021

    As much as anything the local population need a half decent education. Exposure to proper critical reasoning etc. Without that the best you can hope for is how Europe behaved from medieval to current times.

  43. Original Richard
    July 8, 2021

    I simply do not understand why Mr. Blair and ā€œheir to Blairā€, Mr. Cameron, wanted us to get involved with issues not of our concern in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya all to our great disadvantage.

    We need communist and Muslim states to exist so that we can compare how life is in these states and those amongst us who support these countries can emigrate there for a happier life.

    The trouble is, the migration only ever seems to be towards the democratic West, except for the well-known example of Mrs. Merkelā€™s parents who actually moved from West to East Germany.

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