The Opposition in the debate was most disappointing. Labour and the SNP concentrated on demanding the UK takes more refugees more quickly. The SNP leader was unable to answer why Scottish local authorities had not reflected his policy in their actions. Labour was unwilling to get into the detail of who else they thought should be aboard our flights back to the UK or how the hard working operation at Kabul airport could be expanded and speeded up given the pressures on the runway and processing capacity in a situation which needs to meet the needs of many countries. They were unwilling to consider the issue of our national security and the steps that need to be taken to keep us safe against the possibility that the new Afghanistan will harbour or even encourage more terrorists hostile to the USA and her allies.
The Opposition also wished to blame President Trump as well as President Biden for the disaster, and of course had no sympathy for the view that the UK government had little choice once the USA pulled out her military presence unilaterally without considering the needs and wishes of the Afghan government. The MPs who took this approach clearly had not read the Doha Agreement as they seemed to think President Biden merely implemented that. If only. That Agreement required the Taliban to enter talks with the Afghan government and other political groups to seek an agreement. It made US final withdrawal conditional on Taliban good conduct. President Trump did not rush to remove all military support following the Agreement despite the election where he would doubtless liked to have reported a full exit.
The debate needed to discuss more what military intervention can achieve, and to consider more what political and diplomatic effort has to go in to follow up military intervention. You cannot defeat an ideology by force of arms alone if at all. You need to combat the ideas behind it in the minds of the people. South Korea has become a stable and much more prosperous society after the Korean war . The success of western style policies to promote economic growth there has been welcomed by citizens. The USA has been patient and has kept a substantial military presence there for many years which has deterred North Korean excursions across the border with the south. There has been no need for the USA or the West to fight, and the world has not doubted the West’s resolve.
It is no solution to the troubles of current Afghanistan for western MPs to grandstand their conscience by saying we need to allow in more refugees. Afghanistan needs her brightest and best, her educated and enterprising to give her a chance of a journey to greater prosperity and happiness. The more you encourage to come to the West, the more the millions who cannot or will not make the journey suffer. It seems that the Opposition think the UK should welcome in all the people most equipped to offer their homeland the chance of change for the better. I want to see the West use its diplomatic and economic might to tempt Afghanistan to the paths of peace and prosperity. I understand that is not an easy choice. After President Biden’s bad decision to leave in a hurry we are left with needing to use diplomacy, influence and economic sanctions to try to encourage good conduct and rein in violent excess. The West after all accepts that in the cases of several powerful authoritarian regimes who do not share our values it does not have a realistic military option that it would use in anything short of a major emergency or direct threat from the country concerned. The IMF are right to withhold cash from Afghanistan. The UK should draw up a G7 set of demands of the next Afghan government that they will need to meet to get international cash and to avoid major trade and banking  sanctions.
August 19, 2021
Good morning.
Well of course we can no longer do anything militarily, as our armed forces have been run down by successive governments trying to pay for various social welfare (free money) programs.
The UK deals with some pretty nasty regimes that chop off people heads and limbs. I see no scramble to impose sanctions on them, so why Afghanistan ? If it is an attempt to bring them around the table, forget it, they have the Chinese to work with who are, as I type, exploiting Afghanistan’s vast mineral wealth.
Our MP’s are still developing mentally. Decades of infantilisation due to the EU control has left us with people who are only capable of University Room debates. As alluded to in the article, they do not do their research and consequently know little or nothing. Just make gestures and try to out do each other in the, ‘who wants to be seen as the nicest’.
It is going to take decades for us to clear out this dross.
August 19, 2021
“Dross” sums it up for far too many MPs judging by the words many of them utter.
August 19, 2021
Indeed May still seems to blame Trump! Biden is the president now dear.
All very depressing.
See Allister Heath today – Decadence and overreach have brought down the American Empire. The US is in retreat on all fronts, and its incompetent politicians are incapable of reversing the decline.
Largely the same for the UK too it seems.
August 19, 2021
Are the Chinese going to truck in food and medical supplies into the major cities, or repair water and electricity supply, when the infrastructure collapses?
We see already opposition to the Taliban in certain places. This won’t make the situation better, just more violent.
August 19, 2021
+1
August 19, 2021
âIt is no solution to the troubles of current Afghanistan for western MPs to grandstand their conscience by saying we need to allow in more refugees. â
Exactly. This debate was just a virtue signalling opportunity for MPs.
My own MP – Sir Edward Dopey (Liberal Democrat) – asks why âONLYâ 5000 Afghan refugees are being taken. This constituent does not want any. Itâs not just MPs either, the Mayor of Manchester, Andy Burnham, is also in on the act.
Itâs all so predictable.
I want to hear about measures to secure this country against the fall out from this event.
August 19, 2021
Its now a bidding war on who can ask for the most refugee (without asking the people)
August 19, 2021
@ Mark B “…people who are only capable of University Room debates..” – sixth form, surely.
August 19, 2021
@Mark B – A big thank you from me, but is anyone listening. Or come to that are they capable of ‘hearing’
Grandstanding – yes
Virtue Signaling – yes
Political gesturing – yes
Do anything – really just anything – No
August 19, 2021
Spot On
August 19, 2021
Labour and the SNP concentrated on demanding the UK takes more refugees more quickly.
Hereâs a idea why not send all the Afghan men back to there country and fight for it like our own boys and girls did for this country in the last two world wars ,
August 19, 2021
+1
August 19, 2021
+1
August 19, 2021
Spot on – all this talk of the last twenty years bringing freedom to the women of Afghanistan failed to give the Afghan man any back bone
August 19, 2021
Why don’t they send Tony Blair on a plane to Afghanistan and dump him there. Maybe he’ll be able to persuade the Taliban to his position with his wonderful oratory.
August 19, 2021
Don’t forget how many of our young men have died out there or come back crippled all in order to build the new Afghanistan, but all we hear about as usual is what other people have done for us. A fair few of them wouldn’t mind some of the packages that will be on offer to the Afghan’s.
How much money did we pump into Afghanistan, will the tax payer be getting a rebate?
Blair has never been made to answer for his actions which has turned whole regions upside down, the fall out of which lands directly on us. All the Conservatives did was come up with some lame report which Cameron sat on for as long as he could and like the Home Office report into the rape and torture gangs a ‘move along nothing to see exercise’
Now we have yet another set of Blair boys and girls in charge, all no doubt with an eye to some global talking shop with excellent financial incentives once their time in office is up. Not before they’ve done more untold damage here though.
A post above has questioned those in Parliament’s child like mental capacity, which is true, but the same has to be said of the electorate who have continually put up with it and given these people power over them.
August 19, 2021
+1
August 19, 2021
Good morning,
The hubris of going into Afghanistan, again; leaving again with our tail between our legs, and now a lot of wishful diplomatic thinking. The only thing worse is the hand-wringing and virtue signalling from the windbags in the HoC.
A bit of real world common sense perhaps? Afghanistan seems to be the plaything for bored and arrogant superpowers, and neighbours who use it to irritate others. The diplomatic effort needs to be directed at all the parties that trade with drug bandits, sell arms, and otherwise abuse a sadly medieval nation. In short, leave them alone.
August 19, 2021
Agreed. Why do politicians always want to interfere in another country’s affairs?
August 19, 2021
What is being ignored by the BBC entirely are Mr Biden’s mental issues.
Can you imagine the spitting rage of John Sopel had Trump been in charge now ?
Biden is getting off scot free on the BBC. Very little scrutiny of the man.
August 19, 2021
NLA, Exactly! Sopel is as deranged as May, both prime exemplars of TDS. We are ill served by both.
August 19, 2021
@Peter Wood – the forth time of trying in Afghanistan and they still don’t learn. The first time out cost more than 18,000 servicemen’s lives this time more than 400. For what reason? Stupidity comes to mind
August 19, 2021
How have the powers calculated the numbers of refugees so quickly?
I thought that people were being detained.
The Taliban do not want people leaving.
Patently.
So how come?
August 19, 2021
That first 5,000 are interpreters and their families who helped MPs, Embassy Staff and High Ranking Military OfficersâŠ..everyone else can be dammed
August 19, 2021
+1
August 19, 2021
Labour’s race lobby now in full flow appeased by a Tory party that cowers in fear at this new source of brutal political leverage and relishing the opportunity to exploit the potential for importing a generational bloodline of fresh Labour voters and indeed using the presence of maybe Afghan ‘refugees’ as political capital in their war to portray the indigenous population as racist, evil and ‘far right’. This vile political narrative that the Tory party refuse to confront indeed have embraced as an act of party protection means one thing, there is now no opposition to the Marxist scum that now use racial and religious identity to impose irreversible demographic change on the UK for purely political advantage
There is no humanitarian culture in Parliament nor in the Labour party. They see refugees as something to be exploited for political gain. This appalling abuse of such a sensitive human issue is simply not being exposed by the Tory party out of pure fear of any negative headlines in the press
Discussions around such issues are not in themselves an expression of bigotry but the fascist left have managed to create a culture in which such discussions and those who take a certain side can be demonised and slandered and can do it with the backing of legislation passed by both main parties.
The Tory party’s newly captured status by the race and religious lobbies means one thing, demographic and cultural destruction
Yes, to human beings being provided with sanctuary and asylum from harm. No, to Labour, the unions and the left’s politics of exploiting mass immigration from certain countries for political advantage
Left wing slime are not being exposed and still enjoy protection from harm while the man in the street is nobbled and slandered by more oppressive speech laws designed to crush adult debate on important issues
Tory, Labour. Both scammers to protect the status quo and protect the system to which they belong and affords them and their parties privileges
August 19, 2021
I fear for women and homosexuals in the UK 40 years hence, maybe sooner.
August 19, 2021
+1
August 19, 2021
Excellent comment. I would take you up on one point and that is that you seem to almost excuse those in the Conservative party as if they are victims of the vicious left campaign. They are not, they are fully complicit. They have been for quite some time, we only have to look at the continuation of allowing BBC to push ahead its racist anti-white male agenda. We’ve seen absolutely no push back to those wishing to destroy our cultural heritage from literature to actual historical facts.
The relentless politicisation of our institutions moves on at break neck speed, not least education and the ‘de-colonialisation’ or whatever name they give it.
Ever more restrictions to speech surrounding our right to question why we have to accept this. This and so much more, the Conservatives have gladly ploughed on with.
Whatever excuses they came up with in the past for their inertia, doesn’t wash anymore because with a huge majority in Parliament they have little to no excuse.
So whatever protestations individuals may make ( Swayne MP – we’re full!!) it is pure fake gesturing to hoodwink the electorate.
August 19, 2021
If mind control is the objective just send SAGE out there!
August 19, 2021
Having made such an appalling mess of its own destiny I fail to see how the West can sit in judgement of other ideologies.
Didnât the Taliban fall about laughing when âfree speechâ was mentioned, citing a famous social media site as being totally censorious?
Well, not to them of courseâŠ.
August 19, 2021
+10
August 19, 2021
Everhopeful. We have a dangerous situation when Twitter can ban a President from posting but the Taliban can carry on.
August 19, 2021
That says more about our values than theirs
August 19, 2021
Twitter is a disgrace and I would never join it.
But the problem is also that Trump is, let’s be honest, pretty stupid. He should, while President, have switched to the free-speech alternative – Gab – and forced all government departments and other Republican politicians to do likewise. The majority of Americans would have followed and Twitter would probably have collapsed. He could still move there now, but instead remains silenced. Fool.
August 19, 2021
Only the opposition? A telling comment on its own.
As the DM puts it with a few honourable exceptions preening gasbags who had shown zero interest in Afghanistan ever. Nostradamus Starmer once again being very clever after the event, Theresa May for instance not having spoken once on the subject on her premiership and Labour conveniently forgetting the architect of all this was one Tony Blair who they are now looking to, to revive their fortunes.
As said yesterday we knew it would be a virtue signalling hand wringing solely so politicians could feel good about themselves, almost zero suggestions about the way forward except spaffing more of our money and taking in more people to an already over crowded island.
Yesterday we mourned the loss of Austin Mitchell, some called a maverick but at least a politician with individuality not afraid to speak his mind and of course a great and truly informed Brexiteer.
He said politicians need to have the skin of an ox and had the brains to match. Quite.
August 19, 2021
@Nig l +1
August 19, 2021
It was PROOF they all have to go.
Very sorry we may lose some half decent Mps but the half decent ones are being used as an excuse to keep them on. Sorry John you tried your best? But it’s all over. Paliament is full of the vilest morons.
August 19, 2021
Just ridiculous hyperbole Len
Calm yourself for goodness sake.
August 19, 2021
Overwhelmingly, Parliament on all sides was vociferously – and angrily – blaming Johnson for the Afghan humiliation. Johnson, who had obviously not read his briefing papers on the subject for weeks, was shown up for the incompetent in foreign policy that he is.
It seems that the Taliban leadership have all rocked up in Kabul to divide the spoils. 2 Para, who are running their own operation out from their base at the airport into the city to retrieve UK personnel, should be provided with their locations. We lost ~450 brave men in Helmand.
August 20, 2021
Blame Biden SG
He has the vast majority of fire power in the region.
He withdrew all his air power and shortly after his ground forces
Once these had suddenly gone the effect was obvious.
Especially to the forces of evil.
August 19, 2021
Words fail me how this parliament is acting. The government with a majority of 80 is perceived to be frightened of its power to make things happen and just like flotsam goes in any direction that the leadership decides to go on any given day. It is good that 30 odd showed strength of mind and purpose but there is no way the leader and his cabinet are even meeting expectations. The problem also lies with the opposition in reality there is none.
August 19, 2021
they just aint up to it
August 19, 2021
No surprise there. Labour and the SNP if in govt (they will have to have a tie up to have any chance at the next election) would be as dangerously useless as Biden is proving to be. And for the same reason. The focus would be on which gender pronouns to use, on fatuous gestures on zero covid and zero CO2 (not that we donât hear some of the same from the current Conservative govt), on divisive and foolish stirring up of race divisions. I wouldnât be surprised If we get U.K. leftists calling for âde-fundingâ of the police here before long.
The Boris govt leaves much to be desired. But it is far better than would be a posturing and useless bunch of leftists such as is now in power, temporarily letâs hope, in the Great Republic.
August 19, 2021
You see this is the problem. You know that the Conservatives are really quite happy to adopt Labour policies, certainly on immigration that’s for sure, yet you console yourself that well at least it’s not officially Labour.
Johnson is one of the worst posturing actors ever to be presented to us as a wise leader we can say our home is in safe hands with.
He gets more damn ‘woke’ by the day.
I just don’t get why or how people think they have to put up with the ‘least worse option’. This is another area they play you in. The threat of not voting for them would let in X or Y. They then get in power and damn, look we’ve as near as damn it got what we were voting against.
There are people making this comparison over the dinghy escapades, stating that they know Conservatives aren’t doing anything about it, but at least it’s not Corbyn because he would send ships to bring them in!!! Hello, wakey wakey, that’s exactly what the Conservatives are doing.
August 19, 2021
This is not an issue of economics and economic freedom. The comparison with South Korea is invalid. Sir John is too afraid to mention that Islam is at the root of all this.
On a separate matter but linked our relationship with the US is one of master and slave. ‘Boris’ has allowed HMS Queen Elizabeth to sail off to ‘show the flag’ but there are more US planes on board than ours (which are from the US anyway and probably are still under their control) and 250 US marines. The US is in control of our Navy.
Our leaders for years have behaved like slaves to both the EU and the US and they in turn treat the people, of England in particular, as theirs.
August 19, 2021
Excellent how true. Time for all good English men and women to give them the English Archer’s salute and get some pride back.
If as we know they are afraid to mention Islam now, then the future isn’t good is it. Their short sighted policies in the rush to enrich us, and some nonsense over their deified GDP will see that at best all we can hope for, or future generations can hope for is to be left alone on the reservations we’ll be huddled in.
My worry now is that Johnson will be looking for a military escapade to cover himself in glory with. Well, I don’t want one more English man to lose his life for the kicks of those in power.
August 19, 2021
It was interesting to note with regard to that incident in the Black Sea a few weeks ago that it was the British ship which was sent into Crimea’s waters while the following day an American ship making the same journey give them a wide berth.
The UK’s vessel was considered expendable.
August 19, 2021
Correct â you only have to read the Koran to understand the motivations of every Muslim
August 19, 2021
In yesterdayâs TCW Lieutenant-General Riley who has been quite involved in Afghanistan, gave a good explanation as to what happened with the Afghan army.
I didnât realise that Afghanistan is not a country in the way we understand, but many small tribes working separately. The UK and US were trying to create a structure whereby the army and the police work countrywide. Unfortunately they hadnât quite achieved that yet, hence what we saw happen this week.
Labour and the SNP havenât a clue and miss the point of what needs to be done now. Just accepting many male migrants is not the answer. Apart from anything else, it creates a potential security risk to us, here. So many of us really donât understand the hundreds of years of gap between their thinking and ours. Bringing them here is not the answer.
August 19, 2021
Agreed. The politicians first duty is defence of our Nation and until they learn to do this in a way that protects the native population, they should cease their virtue signalling..
August 19, 2021
The funding for the army and police wages, some 300,000+ where paid for by USA and other NATO countries, but only 50,000 existed, the rest was on paperâŠ.who got the money ? Why didnât anyone in NATO do a head-count
August 19, 2021
Sir John, I fear your debate in Parliament was pointless. The world is moving on from US domination, with military coercion via the Pentagon and financial coercion via the IMF as two sides of the same bent coin. The West’s wrecked economies thanks to Covid lockdowns are being overtaken by China, which will have all the strong cards in future, and the new Afghan leaders know that. It’s been happening quietly in Africa, while Western militaries chase a few rebels round the Sahel, many African governments know that taking Chinese money is the way to go, particularly if in return they use their UN votes to vote the way China wants, as the Sunday Times showed. Afghanistan, especially with its border with China, is going to be the same: part of the new Beijing-led world order.
August 19, 2021
+1
Our Covid over-reaction was a disaster in many more ways than people realise. China has been watching.
The West is finished.
August 19, 2021
There is only a long slender finger of rough terrain connecting Afghanistan to China-this is a legacy of the Great Game-a corridor created to separate Russian Central Asia to the North from British India to the South.
But,yes,the west,as an idea is finished.
August 19, 2021
The hard reality on the ground in Kabul is that Biden has created a shambles by his ill judged, unilateral decision to pull the plug on the negotiating process. This has left his fellow US citizens in Afghanistan (about 10,000) as well as UK and other NATO member citizens in an extremely dangerous and difficult position. So much so that the US State department has warned them it cannot guarantee their safety if/when they need to make their way to Kabul airport to take a flight out of Kabul. His action has major implications for US allies and partners which need assessment and debate. They will, or should, be asking themselves this question: with Biden at their back what could possibly go wrong? May’s suggestion that the UK government could and should have stepped in to organise support for the failed Afghan regime to oppose the Taliban takeover must have originated in some fantasy world known only to her. Too many MPs, like her, seem to live in a world of illusion when it comes to the projection of UK power and influence. No doubt we will get repeat deluded performances when the COP 26 circus arrives in Glasgow later this year.
August 19, 2021
+1
August 19, 2021
Old-timer. Mother Theresa May might be less inclined to send one of her family to fight in an underfunded, under equipped army such as ours is now. Talk about sanctimonious.
August 19, 2021
Hereâs the calculation
A) Potentially bombed by Islamic terrorist within 10 years
B) Potentially losing 2m of coastline within 500 years
Lets concentrate all our efforts, resources, money and time on B
August 19, 2021
Theresa May certainly put you in your place! She was excellent
Reply She agreed with my key point that this was Bidenâs unilateral mistake
August 19, 2021
Iâm not certain that she has much room to rant about âintelligence failuresâ.
How many terrorist attacks did we suffer when she was in charge?
August 19, 2021
She said EXACTLY the opposite. Trumpâs unilateral act of negotiating with the Taliban has cost the west dear. It showed weakness
August 19, 2021
Len. Theresa May is a disgrace. Someone who is an expert at lying to the electorate.
August 19, 2021
Trump promised to end this war ( and generally reduce International commitments ) as part of his “America First” campaign. He negotiated directly with the Taliban and the deal with them that he signed on Feb. 29, 2020 promised to pull all U.S. troops out by May 1, 2021.
Biden did not reverse this course when he took office but it seems perverse to exclude Trump form this isolationist disaster
August 19, 2021
Trump had set out conditions that the Taliban had to behave accordingly. Nor did he intend to pull the plug without warning.
I’d like to see Biden scrutinised for once.
There is nothing on the BBC about him. Nothing at all about his mental health which is all over the internet. It is like a sinister news blackout of the soviet era.
August 19, 2021
Funnily enough, there’s nothing much on the BBC about how marvellous astrology and homeopathy are either, and that’s all over the internet too.
August 19, 2021
That isn’t a proper response MiC
NLA is right.
August 19, 2021
@ Newmania – perhaps not so very perverse to exclude Trump at least to some extent and for the present collapse for the former US foreign minister Mike Pompeo explained in a ten minute interview from 15, August that can be found on YouTube via âMike Pompeo calls out Biden’s ‘pathetic blame shifting’ on Afghanistanâ that the deal Trump cut with the Taliban and others (including the Afghan government) provided for the Taliban meeting a number of conditions in default of which they would face sanctions, likely from US forces. Biden did not enforce that deal so unsurprisingly the Taliban have not kept to it.
August 19, 2021
We should be blaming Bush / Blair for the disaster in Afghanistan – not Trump / Biden (they could have played their cards better, maybe – maybe not, but overall blame lies with Bush / Blair for their stupid war). Terrorists can train anywhere (look at IRA training in hills in Ireland). They don’t need to train in Afghanistan (and even if they stick to Afghanistan, it’s a huge and difficult terrain to get caught in). Instead of sending in large army, the West should just be using very small, specialised, highly-trained military units in combat against terrorists and that can be deployed anywhere in the world at a moment’s notice.
August 19, 2021
I listened to the Tugendhat speech, prompted by billing it was very good. It was not commonplace for it was clearly driven by emotion reflecting his own service experiences in Afghanistan but I for one did not find it contributing much if anything to the present dilemmas. I am puzzled by the lavish praise from some quarters.
I also heard part of what May the quisling had to say. The only worthwhile element in her use of parliamentary time was your intervention to try, unsuccessfully, to educate her. Does the Conservative Party not realize that it is harmed by every pubic utterance from T. May since the public is reminded of her disastrous, ill-starred, quisling-driven premiership?
August 19, 2021
Formula. I so agree with your comments about May.
August 19, 2021
As do I.
August 19, 2021
Without any contribution by the USA our forces, or any Nato forces, could not police Afghanistan in any way, simples.
So if the USA is out, then we have to leave, simples.
The only debate should have been how best to leave, and who to take with us when we did.
Our Government should be embarrassed by its long standing stance over the refusal to help translators.
We are informed that the USA did not inform ourselves or NATO of its intention and timescale of witdrawal in advance, that is shameful if true.
The political party game of playing mathematics with refugees is also shameful, why do not the Arab and similar lifestyle and religious nations which are close by, who have either helped support financially one side or another, but stood by for the past 20 years, take some responsibility for the plight the people in their region.
August 19, 2021
Alan:
They might feel that they donât need to, when Politicians continually tell us in the UK that it is OUR âmoral responsibilityâ.
The minute I heard that Canada had offered to take 20 thousand refugees, I knew that Boris would swiftly follow. There were suggestions (demands) in Parliament that we should take even more.
I suggest we watch the numbers closely.
August 19, 2021
+1
August 19, 2021
Alan Jutson: (I’m assuming you’re a British national.) You seem unaware that ‘we’ had already left Afghanistan, back in 2014, which is when our troops were withdrawn from a combat role and brought home.
There were only some military left training the Afghan army – and what a great job they did, by the way!
What we saw in Parliament was an empty verbal exercise in political point-scoring, with no real decisions left to be taken.
August 19, 2021
Why does the UK have to take in Afghan refugees and why not bordering countries?
And for those claim we have a duty, I dispute that on the fact it was only politicians who wanted this war. joe public was not consulted in this matter, indeed their concerns were dismissed out of hand.
Also, the British Isles has a finite landmass, yet politicians keep inviting 100’s of 1000’s more people here every year. It’s beyond common sense.
Further, our public services (because of politicians stupidly myopic dictats) will be constrained even more. Employment opportunities are reduced for same reason. So all these people will be on State benefits.
Paradoxically, these politicians are claiming there is a deadly pandemic going on, if this is truly as they claim, why do they want to more people put at risk?
Notwithstanding, if politicians want all these extra people it is time they proved their altruistic claim and put their own money where their mouth is and pay for all the housing, health, education and cost of living needs.
August 19, 2021
+1 and it’s time Andy took in some refugees.
August 19, 2021
Not very KIND or FAIR or EQUAL is it, shipping folk into plague?
But US defence Secretary Austin says the US does not have the capability to collect large numbers of people.
And flying is banned I though.
And Afghans have blocked the airport anyway.
SoâŠohâŠhow will we get our refugees?
Was Johnson a Wet BobâŠ.he could maybe row over thereâŠâŠ.
August 19, 2021
We invaded Afghanistan, Iran and Pakistan did not. So we are responsible for the refugees
August 19, 2021
If you suggest it is all the fault of the UK, is not the USA partly responsible? I wonder how many refugees the USA will be taking.
August 19, 2021
When did we declare war and invade Afghanistan, Iran and Pakistan?
August 19, 2021
delete Iran and Pakistan
August 19, 2021
Who is this “we”?
If you are referring to politicians, the only people who had a decision making say in this, then I agree it is their financial responsibility. If you believe the politicians made the correct decision, then this includes you and other similar minded people in the general population, then I also agree you and they should fund an Afghan migrant or two.
However, you have failed to provide a justification why those who did not agree with these invasions and raised objections against it should be held to account and financially responsible?
It would appear you agreed with the invasions and accept the subsequent ‘fall-out’. Therefore I ask, are you prepared to personally fully fund one or two of these migrants needs? If not, why not? Therefore, why should those who never wanted or agreed to this should be forced to fund it?
Come on it is time to prove your altruism, or are you just virtue signalling?
August 19, 2021
J Bush. Yes. Our NHS is on its knees with people waiting long times for essential surgery and that waiting time will just get longer now. Our social care bill is out of control, but hey, never mind, let’s just add to it. The British people won’t mind. And how many have had a Covid test and is there going to be a new variant introduced in time for an Autumn lockdown? It just gets more bizarre by the day.
August 19, 2021
And in other news, as the DT puts it politicians lacking courage and having no interest in improving our financial welfare are set to break their promise on the Triple Lock.
Our pension rates are a scandal compared with elsewhere in Europe. Our host likes to trumpet how better off we are without them. Sadly pensioners who have contributed all their lives via national insurance, would in this respect, be better off on the mainland.
We saw how expendable the elderly were condemned to care homes with the ensuing Covid and to that add increasing poverty as they fall further away from the living wage.
How telling that we heard all noise in the Commons yesterday about the Afghan people but people meant to represent us canât get off their arses to look after their own elderly.
August 19, 2021
+1
I am still waiting for a justification why the State pension which the elderly have paid into throughout their working life receive less than what migrants receive. Also why do migrants get more free state services than pensioners. Dental care is but one example.
August 19, 2021
and lots of activity to ensure the Calais dinghy people get first class voyage to England. Like cruises – they offer ‘all found’ hospitality.
August 19, 2021
Yes the UK State Pension is founded on the premiss that the employed continually feed in more at the top end to cover what pensioners take at the bottom end. Little more than a Ponsi scheme ,as no doubt government dip into the NI pot to feed other wheezes like HS2. UK pensions were devised and perpetuated by the financially illiterate. Until contributions are fed into an investment bank out of the control of government, pensioners will continue to be bottom of the second division pension recipients.
August 19, 2021
Precisely Nig1.
August 19, 2021
But there was a âtemporaryâ uplift of ÂŁ20 on Universal Credit. Many are demanding that it is made permanent.
The Government will probably cave in on that, as they don’t seem able to resist any pressure from special interest groups .
August 19, 2021
Nig1 – agree 100%.
MPs,almost without exceptiion are disgraceful. They hate their tax paying electorate, comprised mostly of the English people.
August 19, 2021
“You cannot defeat an ideology by force of arms alone if at all. You need to combat the ideas behind it in the minds of the people.”
And now that ideology is being imported and bred here apace.
Not only that, it is an exalted ideology. No-one dare scrutinise it nor mock it as they do Christianity on pain of death or punishment our suck-up Government and police who will prosecute for ‘hate’ crime in its defence.
I’m afraid that ideology is now our future 40 years hence. My guess is that the Woke activists will become the most radical religionists out, somehow reconciling their own oppressive ideas with the fundamentalists… after all, Woke isn’t about liberating people but bullying them.
August 19, 2021
Agreed, but do these woke activists not realise an alien culture will treat them no differently to those who are not ‘woke’. In my day these ‘woke’ people were classed as green, meaning they were myopic, gullible and a tad thick. Personally I can’t see any difference.
August 19, 2021
I think that enlightened societies are entitled to consider whether what very much seems to be a totalitarian doctrine should be granted the protections offered by law to “faith” or to “religion”.
In other words they are entitled to their own definitions of these terms, and not forced to accept that any group can claim that their ideas meet those whatever.
I do think that many countries have been very weak-minded over this for decades now.
August 19, 2021
All countries must put the needs of their own citizens first. The only reason to intervene in Afghanistan was and remained to protect the West from terrorist groups that based themselves in the country with the tacit support of the previous Taliban regime. 911 was the inevitable consequence. It will not be a surprise if other damaging terrorist attacks are planned and executed from that country in a few year’s time.
If the men and women of Afghanistan are not prepared to stand up and defend their country against the Taliban, that is their right, however, they have to accept the consequences. With the sole exception of those who bravely worked with the Western Allies, nobody from Afghanistan deserves sanctuary in the West. If the EU and the UK allow thousands of Afghan refugees into our countries, they will be infiltrated with extremists bent on doing us harm.
But there is a rarely-discussed moral dimension to the thorny issue of refugees.
In the last decade or two, it has been all too easy for young men in particular, from Africa the Indian Sub-Continent and the Middle East, to seek a kind of promised land in the West rather than stay and improve their own country. They then expect to bring their families to join them. This should be stopped in its tracks.
It is as immoral as the shameful practice of the NHS, actively recruiting doctors and nurses in the third world and allowing them to stay in the UK after they have been trained to improve their skills by practising on us. It should be obvious to everyone that fit, healthy young people are as desperately needed to improve their home countries as their doctors and nurses are.
Why can’t the Socialists see this ?
August 19, 2021
As, for example, America has done many times – we should arm the resistance to the Taliban. But, we should arm their women. When the Taliban realise women will fight them, with guns, for their rights – they might realise they cannot get away with enslaving them.
August 19, 2021
Please don’t imagine Afghan women can succeed where British suffragettes did.
So left with the remote possibility of them seizing arms from fathers, brothers, husbands should they manage it they will receive no mercy.
August 19, 2021
I have written to one of my Conservative councillors explaining why I do not want more refugees inflicted on my local council. We have a ‘housing crisis’; we should not be importing refugees to add to it. And councils should not be stuck with a bill for the failings of central government.
August 19, 2021
Your fault for supporting the invasion of Iraq and Afâstan in the first place! These refugees exist because of UK interventions, you own them
August 19, 2021
Do you include the UK interventions in the Bosnian War, Libyan Civil War, Falklandâs Conflict, Korea War, Turkey & Greek conflict in Cyprus, the Second World WarâŠwhere do you draw the line
August 20, 2021
Between informed good sense and foolishness.
August 19, 2021
Our opposition rarely rise above a small town council appreciation of such an international disaster, seeing it as a point scoring opportunity minus anything positive.
As the Chinese have now acquired one of the major lithium sources in the World perhaps it will temper our mad drive to everything electric, specifically personal transport. Hydrogen undoubtedly offers clean burn energy minus the insanity of very expensive battery fed electricity with its myriad cables and time wasting, so perhaps our lawyer legislators will think again and follow those in industry intent on satisfying the market for transport, heating, and cooking.
August 19, 2021
“military intervention” Only possible with a strong well equipped military – something that is not an option for the UK Parliament.
Never forget Sir John not only have successive Governments kept reducing number they have also sold to foreign powers the UK’s capability. The UK no longer has a policy of creating a strong economy and no longer can get its hands on the fundamental basics of military hardware without the Political Will of Foreign Powers. Some of those recently have shown their distaste and hatred of the UK.
August 19, 2021
Regarding the G7, oh really, do you think the new Afghan govt will be worried what the G7 think, when both China and Russia appear to be recognising (or at least accepting) the new govt in Kabul?!
Why has it taken the West, NATO members) 20 years to realise what the USSR took only 9 years concluding, it is impossible to import either a political system or cultural values to that part of the world?
August 19, 2021
Why do some politicos rightly denounce the human rights atrocities of the Taliban but not others, I heard one MP complain that the Taliban cut heads off criminals! There is never a word against (pro) western, middle and far eastern countries that still send criminals to the gallows, worse to the electric chair so their brains can be boiled with 1500 volts, what about those Commonwealth countries that still use (brutal) judicial canings -sometimes repeated over a number of months or years due to the number of strokes ordered by the courts?
August 19, 2021
The Afghans arenât interested in any world opinion beyond their own tribe and their religionâŠ..xenophobic flat-earthers
August 19, 2021
@glen cullen; Whatever… but if you’re correct, no wonder the religious fundamentalist hard right in the USA thought they could be bedfellows with Afghans, different God but similar ‘flat earth’ beliefs, heck some such in the US still reject Darwinism….
August 19, 2021
The USA is a democratic country and the land of the free, while Afghanistan is a autocratic country and a land of fear & torture
August 20, 2021
@glen cullen; Yours is an assertion, with regards the USA, not a fact, typical of those who choose not to see beyond the likes of Wall Street, many on Main Street would disagree with you. The USA is no more democratic or ‘free’ than the EU27 is, the only difference is with whom the real political power rests, both being some what autocratic too, compared to say the UK.
That said, being the 51st State rather than the 28th State, should the UK ever find it can not function as a independent sovereign nation, would be more preferable!
August 20, 2021
Jerry I’d rather be a USA state than an Islamic state
August 20, 2021
Yes, Glen, they have much in common with English nationalist brexiters in that regard.
August 20, 2021
If you mean good old fashioned patriots, youâre probably right
August 19, 2021
You start wars to ruin countries so you can then take massive amounts of migrants to keep wages low. We are seeing a pattern John.
August 19, 2021
Iraq and Afghanistan are New Labour’s flagship ideas and they try to spin blame to others by guilt trips on Trump and Britain.
Any Inquiry should begin with Blair the rich Peace Envoy good the Middle East. But it will never happen and if so be a whitewash.
August 19, 2021
@ukretired123; Not quite, back in 2001, and again in 2003, ‘New Labour’ merely followed, lap-dog like, the ideas and polices of the then Republication President of the USA (not that the UK Tory party were any better [1]), had the then more experienced UK PM been more critical of the understandable emotions coming from within the West Wing we might not now be were we are.
[1] did any of them question the mission, never mind the mission creep, back in 2001, how many voted against our 2003 involvement in Iraq. The only parties who can claim to smell of Roses are perhaps the LibDems and the SNP…
August 19, 2021
Yesterdays bizarre coming together in the HoC couldn’t be further from the reality of a functioning parliament with ideas and solutions. It was a powerless talking shop convention.
The UK needs to gets its own House in Order, in needs a strong robust economy, it needs it now, today. Then Government and parliament can address its self to the Worlds unfortunate.
The overbearing grandstanding to tackle what they call climate change(unproven at best) is distracting them from their function and purpose of ensuring the safety and security of the UK first. Even if things were to transpire as the doomsayers predict the UK on its own cannot stop it. All the time 50% of the World the most polluting 50% of the world is not participating in a Boris dream. What the UK Government and Parliament should be ensuring is we are capable with living with it. First for any of that to happen we need a strong robust economy the rest of this twaddle is meaningless.
Start by cancelling the biggest contradiction and insult to humanity the massive gathering of powerless talking heads arriving in the UK for COP26. No one in their right mind can justify how creating more of the problem(Pollution) for no reason when there are alternative ways to talk. The whole concept looses any sense of meaning when it doesn’t mean every one only the surfs.
This is from the same people that show concern for the religious dogma of the Taliban – hypocrites they are themselves religious Zealots
August 19, 2021
Nota# – that great phrase that come from the US comes to mind ” its the economy stupid!”
August 19, 2021
Nota# – I would vary that a little: “it’s the UK, stupid.”
August 19, 2021
The debate yesterday simply demonstrated the immaturity and inexperience of many MPs, particularly on the Opposition benches. Their priority is virtue-signalling and in the couple of hours I watched, I don’t believe I heard a single constructive suggestion from them. Their sole “solution” is to import as many Afghans as possible, ignoring the fact that this country is already over-populated and over-burdened with 3rd-world freeloaders ….. many of whom refuse to accept British cultural and societal norms.
We desperately need older and wiser MPs, with more experience of the real world. The two decades of the major parties promoting as candidates SpAds with no experience of real life and selecting young, telegenic media performers as candidates have not served the country well. We desperately need a clear-out of these 2nd and 3rd raters, but under the present Party System and FPTP it is virtually impossible.
Importing hundreds of thousands of Afghans isn’t the solution for their country and it certainly isn’t beneficial for ours. We don’t have the houses; infrastructure; public services; space or money. And we are already having to accept the tens of thousands (every year) which the Government has spectacularly failed to prevent crossing the channel or deport, once they have. We must put whatever pressure we can on Muslim-majority countries in the region to give them a safe haven and use the foreign aid budget to subsidise them there.
As I said yesterday, the main lesson our political class must learn from this debacle is that the next time an American President gets on the phone to “request” British involvement in one of their foreign adventures, the answer must be NO. They have proven in Iraq, Syria and now Afghanistan that they are incapable of building hearts and minds in cultures which are so very different from their own and they are an unreliable and untrustworthy ally ….. cutting and running when it suits them and never mind the impact on their “allies.”
August 19, 2021
Lots of +1’s required today.
The Greater majority of the UK get it and quite frankly the UK Government along with what appears to be so many empty headed numpties playing at being MP’s -DONT. They are still so used to getting directions from an unelected foreign power(the EU) they have no idea their real purpose – the safety and security of the UK.
August 19, 2021
Nota
I will give you a +1.
August 19, 2021
Sir John today:
âThe UK should draw up a G7 set of demands of the next Afghan government that they will need to meet to get international cash.â
Dominic Raab yesterday:
âThe UK will double its humanitarian and development aid to Afghanistan.â
Priti Patel yesterday:
âThere will not be a cap of 20,000 refugees allowed to settle in the UK.â
Rishi Sunak:
is considering a temporary suspension of the Conservativesâ “triple lock” election manifesto commitment on state pensions.
Sir John, Iâm not sure you are in the right political party. I’m sure most Conservative voters didn’t vote for any of this and you will lose many votes at the next election. It seems this Government cares more for foreigners than it does its own people.
August 19, 2021
Christine – precisely.
August 19, 2021
@Christine; Wrong, most Tory voters actually understand the issues, not just the simplistic rhetoric and sound-bites! If you want Keir Starmer to be PM by Dec 2024 carry on trying to hijack the
‘true’traditional Conservative party, those like you are no better than the old Militant Tendency of the Socialist 1970s, just the opposite swing of the same pendulum, (trying to be) a party within a party, unable to stand in their own name and get elected.August 19, 2021
Spot On
August 20, 2021
@glen cullen; “Spot on” only in your dreams, as anyone who cares to read past Conservative party manifestos will know! The Conservative party has never been anything other than right of centre, well in modern times at least, the last 100 years or so. If the old Tory hard right think there is popular support for such policies then stand on them in your own party name -oh hang on, they did try that, they called themselves UKIP (etc.)….
August 20, 2021
”I have a dream”
August 20, 2021
@glen cullen; A dream that is unlikely to be realised, remind me how many MPs, even the share of the vote, UKIP/TBP/Reform (never mind a party further to the right) got in any general election you wish to pick since the 1850s?..
August 19, 2021
+1
August 19, 2021
At what point will UK realise that we cannot take in or otherwise support the populations from countries who do not share the same values as us ?
Especially at a time when our own people need help.
It is also very worrying that the UK government is taking so much unilateral action because they are aware that the electorate do not have an acceptable opposition party to support at the next election – assuming there will be one under the emergency covid measures.
August 19, 2021
Once again your article is couched in terms of what is good for people outside this country. In fact the ‘brightest and best’ are not of much use to a mediaeval ideology, it’s not as if the Taliban will launch a Space programme. It seems that only Desmond Swayne is prepared to represent the indigenous people of Britain and even he tiptoes around the issues by putting the problem in terms of housing. It is forecast that by 2050 the English will be an ethnic minority in their own country, we have already lost control of a number of cities and constituencies. What if a majority in one of these areas democratically vote to install Sharia Law? We can only look in envy at Viktor Orban, a leader who puts his own people first and is not afraid to speak openly about culture and demography.
August 19, 2021
If the English become a minority in their own Country, I hope I don’t live to see it. I probably wont, as Iâm 82.
However, my forecast – for what its worth – is there will be very serious unrest. I think the Brits will have had enough, and will fight.
How awful to think it may come to this.
August 19, 2021
The main divide in Parliament yesterday seemed to be about masks.
The opposition benches full of sensible politicians wearing masks to do their part to protect others. The government benches rammed full of the selfish – happy to put everyone at risk.
I remember some months ago Brexitists pointing to Florida as an example of how masks are not needed. Florida doesnât have masks they said. Floridaâs doing great they said. Howâs that working out for you now?
August 19, 2021
Masks are now optional
Wear one if you want to.
August 20, 2021
It was a publicity stunt, and it tells you exactly who are their target group for votes.
August 19, 2021
Whilst the Westminster Brexit elite gets itself in a muddle over Afghanistan – in the real world most people donât care.
What they do care about is Nandoâs and KFC running out of chicken as a result of Tory pensioner Brexit.
Is part of the anti-obesity strategy to use Brexit food shortages to starve people?
August 19, 2021
bill and heffy should be having a go at you young Andy.
Have you done any fact checking they often say.
A look on the internet shows that the two main causes are:-
National shortage of hgv drivers
Staffing crisis caused by Covid pinging leading to staff shortages.
August 19, 2021
Itâs interesting to observe the difference between this site and elsewhere.
Here the majority of voices are for no help for people fleeing terror and repression under the Taliban. Elsewhere, in Parliament, almost everyone who phones in to a radio talk show and most of the people I know – the feeling is that we should help. In a democracy one must surely go with the majority. The majority, I believe, think we should help – with aid and with accepting people fleeing the terror and repression.
August 19, 2021
…and in successive elections both european and general the majority of voting public have said no more migration – it has been the second priority folloing brexit for the past 15+ years
August 19, 2021
I love a good debate, but what did yesterdays parliamentary debate achieve ?
Apart from MPs getting some TV coverage and PR, what did âjoe-publicâ learn that we didnât already know, these grandiose debates achieve little without a stated aim and a meaningful vote afterwards
Could we also rename the âparliamentary debateâ to âparliamentary 5 min speechâ as most of the contributions are repetitive and the management of the debate by the chair (speaker) is non-existent
August 19, 2021
The debate epitomised all that is wrong with our politicians and government. They are completely out of touch with reality and are determined to betray the British people. There is no recognition that the UK is grossly overcrowded and that we cannot take even one refugee, let alone tens of thousands. No recognition that what has happened in Afghanistan is entirely the responsibility of the Afghans, who had every possible advantage in terms of number of forces and munitions, but who ran rather than fight. No recognition that Afghan culture, tradition, religion and values are completely different to ours.
And there is no recognition that British politicians, and the British government should care about the BRITISH people, who should be given priority, NOT foreigners. We should not admit ANY refugees while we have so many domestic problems, in terms of a shortage of government money, a shortage of housing, strained public services, congested roads and an NHS at breaking point with a backlog which will take years to clear. Our quality of life is being completely DESTROYED by this government, whose priority is foreigners rather than Britons. Traitors, that’s what they are – filthy traitors. There is no other word for them.
Finally, how come you didn’t speak, Sir John (apart from two very brief questions)? You have received hundreds of comments on this site with the opinions of the public and I had hoped that you would use the debate to represent us and put those views across to ministers.
Reply I have put my points to Ministers . You canât speak in every debate.
August 19, 2021
X-Tory, 100% Spot On
August 19, 2021
Ashraf Ghani high tailed it to the airport with more money than could be loaded onto his helicopter leaving some on the runway, allegedly. He was a member of the Pashtun tribe whose tribesmen straddle the border with Pakistan and from which the Taliban high command is drawn. How many of these are new Britons? The Pashtun are not the only tribe straddling the Afghan border: there are the Baluchis which also traddle the border with Pakistan in Helmand, the Tajiks of Northern Alliance renown with Tajikistan, the Aimak with Iran, the Turkmen with Turkmenistan, the Pamiri and Kurgiz with Tajikistan. The Hasara live surrounding Kabul.
As a result of Western interference, not only are there the pre-existing tribal rivalries but also a large number who were paid to support the NATO occupation of their country; these people are now in great danger. The Western meddling in Afghanistan has achieved less than nothing because nothing of permanence will remain just the new animosities and an armoury of weapons far more lethal than pre-existed the invasion.
August 19, 2021
GB News brought up the case of Ahmad Shah Massoud’s son, Sandhurst trained, who has fallen back to the Panjshir valley with fighters, with others rallying there. This could be a significant thorn in the side of the Taliban, as was his father a problem to the Russians. I hope we are doing everything we can to help him.
August 20, 2021
I trust that we will take only those Afghans flown out of Kabul on an emergency basis, not aging relatives they have left behind and not those crossing the Channel by boat.