The UK has kept something  close to a two party system in General elections. Labour and Conservative have alternated in power based on their ability or lack of it to improve living standards and preside over a successful economy. Labourâs bankrupting  of the UK and trip to the IMF to borrow in the mid 1978s led to them being out of office for 18 years. The Conservatives adoption of the European Exchange Rate Mechanism and the predictable inflation and recession that caused led to Conservatives being out of office for 13 years. Labourâs boom and bust and banking crash of 2008 has so far led to them being out of office for 11 years.
I know some contributors here want a new or third party to emerge. The Social Democrats tried that in the 1980s and failed after a few by election successes. The Lib Dems are always positioning themselves as a potential new force but have never made it to first or second place in a General election and cannot truthfully claim to be new. The Referendum party, UKIP and the Brexit party tried it mainly around an important single issue but only ever won one seat in a General election between them. As I always advised here, if you wanted a referendum and then wanted Brexit done they had to be achieved with Conservative MP votes in the Commons. In Scotland the SNP has demonstrated that in the first past the post Westminster elections they have been able to break through into first place, displacing Labour, because they have made their constitutional issue more salient than economic management for the UK as whole.
On the continent there was the same alternation between Social Democrats and Christian Democrats in office in the last century. This century in all the main EU countries the big two have lost support with new populist parties emerging. It is true they have different voting systems which can assist splintering of the  vote, but they had these same systems in the last century when Christian Democrats and Social Democrats were each likely to get around 40 % of the vote and to dominate coalitions with smaller parties formed by the winner.
This seems to have occurred because electors realise that unlike in the UK the once dominant parties can no longer guarantee or mess up the economy  in the same way because they do not have the powers. EU control of interest rates, money and credit, state borrowing and some taxes changes things a lot. Elections are fought on other matters more.
The decline of the Christian Democrats has been speeded by EU policies. The lower tax greater freedom part of the conservative vote has been alienated by the compromises needed to accept a large and growing EU budget, independent collective EU borrowing, huge transfers at zero interest from surplus to deficit countries through the European Central  Bank, and a regulatory colossus laying down detailed controls over many aspects of life. The conservative impulse has as a result been driven into newer parties of a more Eurosceptic tone. They are normally defeated by a coming together of all the other parties that are broadly pro EU to prevent any Eurosceptic movement gaining power again, as Syriza briefly did in Greece before its leaders gave in. In some cases as in France this has occurred in the second round of an election. In other cases as in current Italy it comes by excluding the Eurosceptic party from any post election coalition.
August 30, 2021
The 2 party system has prevailed in the UK because the policies are almost identical.
Big tax, borrow and waste. Open door immigration and putting minorities at the top of the agenda.
A new party will emerge to rebalance priorities, one which is not ashamed to mention the word England.
August 30, 2021
+1
August 30, 2021
+2
August 30, 2021
….. and once they are in power there is no guarantee that they will not be bribed as easily to keep the same policies by the Establishment as the current lot. This is problem with representational democracy, it is not necessary to buy the voters as long as you can buy their representatives. Of course I do not include our host in this, which may be why he is not one of the inner circle.
August 30, 2021
Agreed beresford. As the EU have demonstrated only too well, if you ‘buy’ the politicians you effectively ‘buy’ the country.
August 30, 2021
I think that rich Russians and others have demonstrated that par excellence, but see no evidence of any European Union institution’s involvement in that sort of thing.
August 31, 2021
The EU’s entire MO was to capture British politicians and civil servants to capture the country.
August 31, 2021
So how were they “captured” and what inducement or coercion was used, then?
Which department and officials of the Union did this, and where was their budget in the accounts, scrutinised by not one, but by the authorities of twenty-eight countries?
August 30, 2021
beresford
Too bloody true. Inner circle just about sums it up.
When you take a long hard look at what is sitting on the back benches in experience, knowledge and genuine leadership and real people skills is just unbelievable as this country bounces along the bottom with no real direction and nothing to inspire the electorate with a glimmer of any real hope for the future.
August 30, 2021
@Ian Wragg – could almost merge them and reduce the number in the HoC.
August 30, 2021
+1
August 30, 2021
Indeed. +1
August 30, 2021
+1
August 30, 2021
because or in spite of, Ian?
August 31, 2021
It has prevailed because of the UK’s unrepresentative voting system. Both of them have been able to be in power with the support of little more than one third of those who voted.
August 30, 2021
La,la,laâŠDancing in a nightclub,
Looking somewhat spaced outâŠ
La,la,la.
Doesnât really make one FEEL like voting!
August 30, 2021
I am disappointed that both R5L and GB News wasted air-time on this non-story. I switched both off.
August 30, 2021
Gove is the Minister responsible for imposing dictatorial and unnecessary restrictions on our Civil Liberties over a Low Consequence Infectious Disease with a 99.3% survival rate.
He’s wearing no mask; making no attempt to socially distance himself; and presumably didn’t test himself beforehand or produce proof of “vaccination.”
Proving once again that what he preaches and pushes on the population doesn’t apply to him.
It’s far more than “a non-story.”
August 30, 2021
+1
Exactly
August 30, 2021
Totally agree Donna
August 30, 2021
Sea Warrior. Me too. So what if Gove was enjoying himself. He might look a right Charlie but then contrary to what most people think of themselves on the dance floor, so do they after a certain age and with alcohol.
August 30, 2021
You remembered it though!
Once seen never forgotten.
Unfortunately.
August 30, 2021
Good Morning,
Sir J, you could have entitled this piece: ‘Stale old Centrist Political Parties are a danger to Democracy’. The danger part is because when the stale old parties are seen as incompetent, corrupt and unelectectable, then often a democracy will invest it’s hope in an extremist party, and we know how that can turn out…
One of the greater risks for the UK is exactly this problem, not from itself (thought the Tory and Labour parties are certainly stale and incompetent right now) but from the EU. When the next big shock hits Europe and the EU is again found to be ineffective, what will voters do to those who have led them so far astray and wasted their resources?
August 30, 2021
PS ” ….independent collective….” GOOD ONE!
August 30, 2021
In 2012, UKIP got 12.6% of the vote and 1 MP. The LibDems got 7.9% and 8 MPs. The SNP got 4.7% and 56 seats.
This is supposed to be a democracy where every vote counts. That one result alone demonstrates that there is nothing remotely democratic about it.
The only thing that protects the two-party system in England (where 85% of the voters live) is the Constituency-based First Past the Post electoral system. It means that only two Establishment-approved Parties have any realistic hope of winning a majority and that in turn means that voters are “encouraged” to choose what they consider to be the least worst option from two Parties which generally have virtually identical policies on the majority of policy areas.
At the last election, unusually, we were offered a real choice of policies: those proposed by a Mad Marxist and those proposed by a supposedly libertarian-Conservative. Unsurprisingly, the libertarian-Conservative won …… and then proceeded to implement policies proposed by the Mad Marxist.
I will not be complying with the FPTP trap any more. The events of the past 18 months have destroyed any residual faith I had in the CON Party. I will vote for Reform because that’s what this country desperately needs …… and will never get from the Establishment Socialist Parties of Lab and CON.
Reply There was no general election in 2012
August 30, 2021
Sorry, mis-type. I meant 2015.
August 30, 2021
We know when you meant Donna. I have posted similar below about how UKIP got more votes than Green, SNP, Libs Dums & Plaid put together and resulted in one MP and yet we call ourselves a democracy. I donât think so. Time for us all to take a chance on the Reform Party.
August 30, 2021
Donna I very nearly agree with you.
Certainly I can not imagine ever again voting for Cons. Never have voted Lab, LibDem, or Green.
For all the spouting off over the years there is little to choose between them and NONE actually care for the people, only for themselves.
Personally I just do not take to ReformUK because I wouldn’t trust Tice further than I could throw him.
I’d like to see Ukip rise from it’s present bad state. It was NOT a one issue Party and whatever date that General Election was it certainly made an impact.
Sir John, do not be so complacent that here in the UK, or England, that you seem to only care about now, no new party will break through.
Reply I did not say no new party can ever win. I did correctly predict UKIP would never win and stayed with the Conservatives as the only way to get a referendum.
August 30, 2021
“This is supposed to be a democracy where every vote counts. That one result alone demonstrates that there is nothing remotely democratic about it.”
Sorry, but that is complete nonsense. Our system ensures that to get representation in Parliament, a Party has to get support widely and also in some constituencies. You don’t get seats by getting one percent everywhere, and you don’t get too many seats by being concentrated in one area.
There is nothing undemocratic about that. In fact, if we ever went to PR – never, I hope – we would would have to have “bolt-on” rules to ensure “wide and deep” support, that would then resemble the current system.
You don’t like the current system, fine. But you don’t get to decide what “democratic” means.
August 31, 2021
And in that same election the “majority government” had the support of just 36.9% of those who voted.
August 30, 2021
@Peter Wood – its the fear of the people, the need to control them in case they get to see the true agenda, either that or the participants are not that bright
August 30, 2021
Can âdemocracyâ work when there are no longer clearly defined voter bases?
50 years ago no one would have defected from Labour to Tory unless they became suddenly rich and vice versa if they fancied themselves as a reforming socialist ( or commie). Now, with no real constituents, politicians depend on pinching policies from other parties..thus morphing into a blob of repressive nonsense.
Without the class system and workers what raison dâĂȘtre does Labour have? It now has to rely on voters imported for it by the Tories who, having lost the landed gentry to wokery, are sinking us into an âEagleâ comic type of dystopia, actually believing that they enjoy great popularity! And moreover terrified that they might be pipped at the post by Labour for the much hated greencr*p and antiwaycism!
August 30, 2021
I would suggest that the voter base hasnât changed, rather the political parties target audience has changed
Labour 1970s target â working class
Labour 2020s target â working class, middle class, immigrants, greens, wokes
Tory 1970s target â middle class
Tory 2020s target â working class, middle class, immigrants, greens, wokes
August 30, 2021
I think we are in agreement.
The voter base has become fragmented.
Political parties now have to please a wide coalition of views.
The parties are bland. They tell people what they want to hear!
And they have huge problems in pleasing their disparate supporters.
Look at the Lib DemsâŠtheyâll promise anyone anything!
August 30, 2021
“Labourâs boom and bust and banking crash of 2008 has so far led to them being out of office for 11 years” just as Major’s idiotic ERM fiasco (and love of the anti-democratic EU) gave us three terms of Blair with his appalling and pointless wars and many other disasters.
With the UK voting system I do not think a third party is likely to breakthrough. But we currently have two dire socialist parties Labour/SNP clearly being even worse than Boris’s tax borrow and piss down the drain, green crap pushing fake Tories.
What a dire choice.
August 30, 2021
I see that Roger Bootle in the Telegraph suggests – Cut the number of graduates in half to give our economy the lift it needs. Parents and employers are rating university too highly â many professionals could thrive without degrees.
Correct, but go rather further to just 25%. Or at least cut all soft loans to 25%. Only expensive subject to teach like medicine, engineering, science and the likes really need grants. It should cost very little indeed to teach maths, english, history, PPE, economics, law and many other subjects anyway now using videoed lectures and IT. Let people pay for their own hobbies or get a job and do night school or day release. Also offer suitable people ÂŁ50k loans to start new businesses.
August 30, 2021
@Lifelogic – what if exams/tests were designed to highlight the top 5 or 10% and Universities got to recruit the best of the best to push them further.
Good graduates studying for real degrees do in a lot of situations get reimbursed by their future employer their university funding
August 30, 2021
Let Open University offer on-line Arts courses for people to do part-time & restrict full-time courses to STEM subjects. Increase apprenticeships for practical jobs.
August 30, 2021
+1
August 30, 2021
… and that’s why this conservative is now a disenfranchised political refugee, unwilling to do anything other than spoiling his ballot paper. I don’t want to see the end of FPTP, for the Commons, but when the Lords is reformed, PR must be a feature of the solution for that chamber.
August 30, 2021
Sea_Warrior :
ââŠ.but when the Lords is reformed, PR must be a feature of the solution for that chamber.â
Agreed.
I have no objection to HoL members being nominated by UK political parties, rather than being directly elected, but the numbers each party can nominate to vote (as opposed to just speak in the HoL debates) should be proportional to the votes each party received at the last GE and include those parties who fail to achieve an MP because of the FPTP system.
August 30, 2021
@Sea_Warrior +1
I largely agree with you there. the Lords should simply be an honour for this that or the other – but it should never be part of the Political make up of the UK. There should be a focus on an upper chamber replacement and a quickly timed replacement – until then there should be no place for it in our political system. To keep the pressure on, all Laws, rules, and regulation should be temporary until an elected upper chamber has reviewed them.
Will it happen? I doubt it the UK System is self corrupting. Contradiction, its democracy when you vote for me but I don’t want the country run as a democracy – the establishment prefers to distortion
August 30, 2021
I hope you aren’t holding your breath waiting for Lords reform. How many is it now, 800+ and rising so called Lords ?
August 30, 2021
It depends what role you envisage for the Lords. In the days of hereditaries, peers represented areas of geography included in their title and indeed many owned extensive lands there and had a direct interest in their economic success: it was of course also strongly class
based . That link is now broken and has been replaced by failed or semi retired politicians.
As a revising House it would make sense to ensure that it contains a proper diversity of expertise and interest so that it can make up for that lack in the Commons. It also needs to be able to conduct the business of government and opposition, which suggests having some seats reserved for the purpose, perhaps with a small government majority. It’s unlikely that any form of national plebiscite would deliver a suitable composition.
August 30, 2021
+10
August 30, 2021
Sea Warrior
When they reform the HoL?
It will never happen, it doesn’t hold parliament to account it just enforces their preferred direction to be taken.
August 30, 2021
@lifelogic
Every day our kind host allows you to post 5 or 10 of your increasingly obsessive, tedious and boring rants, either denying the climate emergency (in the face of the obvious evidence and overwhelming scientific opinion) or knocking any proposed green solution (“greencrap”) Actually, I rarely bother to read them nowadays. BORING!!!
The fossil fuel producers have funded many scientific studies denying climate change and attacking the renewables industry. The tobacco industry used to do the same thing when denying that smoking causes cancer. If you want to be taken in by that sort of propaganda, more fool you. Fortunately for the country and the world, you are in a minority. If you want to read some real physics, try this wikipedia page on wind power
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_the_United_Kingdom
Find another gong to bang and let the rest of us try and solve the problems that burning your fossil fuels have caused. Or would you rather sack the lunatic 1.2million UK people who work in the idiot green industries to prove your silly points? I rather think you would.
August 30, 2021
Sakara it is you that is the boring one with your obsession with a non existence climate emergency and bowing down to the altar of the EU.
Ll may be repetitive but he’s usually on the money, not something that could be attributed to you.
August 30, 2021
Ian Wragg
+1
August 30, 2021
Ian wragg. I’m not going to write my own post as you have done so perfectly. Keep it up L/L.
August 30, 2021
Me too Fedupsoutherner.
August 30, 2021
+ another 1 to Ian Wragg’s reply to Sakara.
August 30, 2021
Ian Wragg, +1
August 30, 2021
@Sakara Gold
the bulk of the 1.2 million you quote from Wikipedia(?) are at best assembly and service workers for manufactured items from the Worlds worst polluters. There is the contradiction, assembly isn’t manufacture.
The reason for the rants is that 50% of the World who produce 70% of the Worlds pollution are not participance in the PM’s asperations(for their part there are good reasons).
The rants against this Government and its leader is the PM wants the UK that accounts for just 1% of the Worlds problems to shoulder on it own the cost and punitive punishment for the whole World. The UK on this is ‘not’ working in unison with other nations, those it competes with for wealth, but it is trying to out bid them in a childish rant of I am better than you. This means the UK economy is at the for front to be sacrificed. That means UK, Education, health, wealth and infrastructure has to be sacrificed – all for a mans ego.
That is the Socialist ideal of getting things backwards. Without wealth creation there is no future, or at least the one we would expect future generations to enjoy.
The so-called ‘climate emergency’ can be tackled, and tackled well but that costs money that the UK needs to create. It is certainly not a bidding war, a chest betting subject, its a functioning logical situation that as a mature country we can tackle if we also recognise it has to be paid for by real earning from real people. This Government is about ‘grandstanding gestures’ not real affordable solutions.
The rants as you call them are for the most part a requirement of ‘brevity’
August 30, 2021
……………in the face of obvious evidence………..Go read many alternative views. Please explain the ice ages and then the tectonic plates movements and measure time in the 100,00’s years not decades. Go look at the intensity of that climate provider…………the Sun and its cycles and how the impact of 0.04% Co2 impacts our climate in comparison . Go read Milanovic cycles and the the movement of and tilt of our planet, its changing orbit and our magnetic field. Then go study the jet stream that impacts our weather daily. On the other hand we could all go and pray for your climate change religion/emergency. Once they all thought the Earth was flat and there was witchcraft………….go figure.
August 30, 2021
+1
August 30, 2021
You can get any scientific opinion you want if you pay for it …… and deny funding and a platform to those providing the counter-argument.
The science on the climate is not settled. But the propaganda is.
August 30, 2021
You are writing about pseudo-science Donna.
Yes there is some about.
However, true science, by definition cannot be falsified.
Climatology accepts, and is at pains to explain, that there is large uncertainty as to the timescale and severity of the likely adverse effects of rising atmospheric CO2.
However, the probability of those being anything from serious to catastrophic is calculated to be far too high for any responsible person to ignore.
August 30, 2021
I am not against real green jobs but I am against government subsidies and daft regulations for fake greenery that does not work & is not economic and does positive harm or is not economic. These green jobs destroy far more real jobs, perhaps 3 to 4 times the number.
August 30, 2021
@Sakara Gold. This site would be diminished without the contributions of Lifelogic.
August 31, 2021
Yes, the word count would be more than halved.
August 31, 2021
Says MiC who posts more than ten times a day.
August 30, 2021
Agree totally and what delusion. Tory MPs needed for the Referendum and to get Brexit done. Complete denial that it was the threat of a rising UKIP, who had more MEPs and was improving in the local councils, that forced them into that position. As with other topics now, the anti EU groundswell was met for years by sympathetic BS and then nothing happened. Write to your MP, as I did, and that was precisely the outcome.
Get Brexit done, rubbish, we saw the rush to get ink on paper by selling out NI and fishing and now with a large majority they couldnât care less. Sir JR asks and pushes for actions and gets emollient answers so that he goes away until he raises the topic again and again and again.
We saw recently two senior mandarins managing (irony) the Border Force, being moved on. They had been there a long time. Not difficult to read into that their performance had been poor. We read that Mandarins were in holiday when Afghanistan exploded. We know they are pushing back/blocking Brexit.
I agree with Sir JR that the constant cry for another party, always centrist, is unachievable but what we are seeing is that no competition engenders laziness, apathy and, across all parties and the civil service, many mediocre people.
The poll tax riots really forced politicians to take notice and regularly in France. Now thereâs a thought!
August 30, 2021
Good post. The current system has given many millions no where to go or vote. We are all political refugees until another conservative , right of centre party emerges. The current lot are NOT in any way conservative.
August 30, 2021
I think that it was more to do with Toxteth ablaze, the Poll Tax riots, the disintegrating physical fabric of schools – happening again as I write – the IRA Mainland bombings, the social devastation of de-industrialisation, soaring crime and the rest, though the ERM fiasco certainly didn’t help.
There was simply a growing, inescapable feeling of living in a dystopia.
It is returning apace right now.
August 30, 2021
What I remember from 1997 was the sleaze and “cash for questions”. Tony Blair seemed shallow to me, so I don’t know how he gained a landslide.
Since 2010, Labour have been committed to second place, first with Gordon Brown, then Ed Miliband and lately Jeremy Corbyn. Their commitment continues with Keir Starmer, ably assisted in the runner up position with the likes of Lisa Nandy. The Conservative Party will have to rely on focused determination to lose the next election.
August 30, 2021
Tony Blair won because John Major Lost – in spades.
August 31, 2021
No change no chance as JR rightly said but the daft Tory MPs wanted to retain John Major to lead them into three+ terms in the wilderness.
August 30, 2021
MiC
The last thing the Left wants is a healthy, peaceful and satisfied population, it destroys its whole reason for being, therefore a perpetual state of revolution is needed and ever more diverse cults are found to make sure that protests that are never ending with ever more letters needing to be added in order to identify the dissatisfied group.
There is nothing more dystopian than face coverings. It truly has created an alien landscape. Short of physical restraint and injury it is the most oppressive thing you can do to someone. That women are forced to wear them in one religion and The Handmaid’s Tale uses it as a symbol of abuse is telling.
“Out of respect for others, wear a face covering.” Goes the announcement. And thus a huge rift is created between believers and none believers.
I’ve done more than my bit and wore my mask until the double jabbing of vulnerables was done.
You wear an N95 if you are a believer. Let the rest of us live freely and healthily.
Yes. Masks are a red line.
You do NOT tell me what to wear, Martin. Let alone what I put on my face.
August 30, 2021
Face masks are ‘Safety Blankets’. How can a mask stop a virus particle when the holes in the masks used by the general public are 500 times bigger than a particle of the virus?
August 30, 2021
Spot on.
August 30, 2021
@Lifelogic – what if it was the local electorate were they only ones to select their candidates. Then the funding of the candidates only came from those communities?
August 30, 2021
Good point Nota. The Constituency offices and the Central offices of the main parties are a large part of our problem.
They decide who is funded to become an MP and what policies the government impose.
Nothing even remotely democratic in the system.
None of the above is often the only sensible vote at elections.
August 30, 2021
@Pauline Baxter – there is also a good case for ‘none of the above’ being a choice on all ballot papers
We suffer when it comes to denigrating our MP in Wokingham – he gets it!
August 31, 2021
+1
August 30, 2021
Lifelogic “With the UK voting system I do not think a third party is likely to breakthrough.”
There will no breakthrough as long as folk maintain the defeatest attitude of ‘not worth voting for’ this or that party because they’ll never get in. Of course they won’t if you don’t vote for them.
August 30, 2021
“With the UK voting system I do not think a third party is likely to breakthrough. ”
People talk about a third party as if it’s something that drops from the skies to save us all. We don’t have a viable third party because the voters *do* *not* *want* *one*.
August 30, 2021
@Jon Livesey
Clearly that is not true. In elections that donât use first past the post, e.g. elections to the EU Parliament, UKIP, the Lib Dems and the Greens all got plenty of votes.
We donât have viable third, fourth and fifth parties because the Tory and Labour Parties insist on a voting system that means a vote for any party other that Tory or Labour is a wasted vote. I still vote Green in the hope of keeping environmental issues on the agenda.
Letâs face facts. In all but about 120 marginal seats, if you vote Labour in a Tory safe seat and vice versa – you might as well have stayed at home.
Reply The public voted against a different voting system in a referendum.
August 31, 2021
Mike, you are right and the parties know it. Tim Ross’ book on the 2015 Conservative campaign is eye-opening for anyone who thinks that the parties care equally about all constituencies. They don’t. The first decision the Conservatives took was to write off 550 constituencies as “done deals” under FPTP, not worth bothering with, and to make no more than a minimal, token effort (one leaflet). Wokingham constituency was one of those 550.
I want to see a referendum on changing to a proportional system. Having a real say in a democracy should not be simply a matter of where you happen to live.
REply what nonsense I fought a vigorous campaign with several leaflets.
August 30, 2021
Good Morning,
It will always be pointed out that Nigel Farage never won a seat in Parliament for UKIP or the Brexit Party. This wasn’t likely to happen anyway. His parties did the trick of first of all pressurising the then PM David Cameron into offering a referendum, and later enabling the current PM Boris Johnson to win the December 2019 election with the rallying cry ‘Get Brexit Done’. (Some will argue that, okay it may have been ‘oven-ready’, but now Brexit is sadly only half-baked.)
Now there is no relevant Opposition. Which party is going to challenge this so-called Conservative Government and its small cabal of ‘experts’ on the undemocratic proposals being mooted?
Who is going to champion the elderly who are to lose dedicated carers (those carers who do not want to accept the ‘vaccination’ still at its experimental stage) with whom they have built up a relationship? The Government proposes that these carers will be replaced by foreign ‘vaccinated’ carers. I have nothing against foreign carers – all East European carers I have been involved with have been absolutely professional and dedicated – but a new face, perhaps accompanied with a puzzling accent, could make the last months or years even more bewildering for the elderly in care homes.
As for ‘vaccinating ‘ 12-17-year-olds WITHOUT PARENTAL CONSENT – who would have thought this could happen under a Conservative Government?!
The Reform Party UK is our only hope. I as a bitterly disappointed long-standing Conservative will be voting for The Reform Party in the next election. They stand for what used to be Conservative values.
August 30, 2021
I will also be voting for The Reform Party if we have a candidate. Richard Tice seems to be doing a good job and I have enjoyed his Sunday morning show on Talk Radio.
August 30, 2021
Christine. The Reform party is the Conservative party as far as I’m concerned.
August 30, 2021
+1
August 30, 2021
Well let’s see what has transpired by the time we get a G.E.
Your criticisms of the present government are very true and there are many others we can make.
August 30, 2021
Fascinating to see that Govey – obviously in the throes of a mid-life crisis – was kicking off the hustings for the second Scottish independence referendum over the weekend in “Bohemia”, a hard trance and techno nightclub in Aberdeen. The Chancellor of the Dutchy of Lancaster had clearly had one over the three and was photographed dancing wildly – in his suit – to a 2-hour dance set by DJ Nina.
Govey has obviously done wonders for Conservative popularity north of Hadrians Wall. He had drinks bought for him by fellow clubbers all night. Let’s hope they were not spiked and he’s safely back at his desk tomorrow morning.
August 30, 2021
“Mid” life?
Are you expecting him to live to 110?
August 30, 2021
Has he had the vaccine or the saline or even nothing? Also in principle, he should have no objection to ‘spikes’.
August 30, 2021
Gove who cost me my bet on Boris becoming leader first time by knifing Boris in the back.
The man who wanted to destroy many good private schools by putting VAT on the fees. This so parents have to pay four times over. For them at state school a place not taken up, in taxes on the money they earn for the fees, the fees themselves and then 20% in VAT. Tricky to afford especially with four kids even if you are on say ÂŁ200K. Hardly fare competition is it. The same in healthcare but with 12% IPT tax instead of VAT.
Freedom and choice please.
August 30, 2021
âAs I always advised here, if you wanted a referendum and then wanted Brexit done they had to be achieved with Conservative MP votes in the Commons. â
There would never have been a referendum without a single issue pressure group worrying Cameron so much – even though he thought he had the measure of the âmad, swivel-eyed loonsâ.
It is always dangerous to think voters have nowhere else to go. That said, this does seem to be the mindset of the current government.
Reply We Conservative MPs who defied a 3 line whip to demand a referendum got one when Cameron realised we were close to replacing him if he refused.
August 30, 2021
Reply to reply, only because of the dismal outcome of the Euro elections.
If UKIP hadn’t swept the board there would no have been a referendum.
Reply Not so. Conservative leaders always ignored European elections that went wrong, regarding them like troublesome by elections. The thing that swayed Cameron to offer a referendum was the mood within the Conservative Parliamentary party. When I went to discuss this with him to get a referendum the one thing we agreed about was that UKIP would not win a single seat at a General election
August 30, 2021
Reply to reply. John, don’t you think unfair that the voting system gives us no chance of voting to get a new party in power? We need change but know we will get either one of the two parties with no difference between them.
Reply The voting system does not stop a new party
August 30, 2021
Agree that THIS voting system does not stop a new party and that about a hundred years ago we got a new party, but that is a long time ago.
August 30, 2021
They might not win a single seat at a general election but, after their success in the 2014 EU elections, without the promise of a referendum they would definitely have got enough votes in the 2015 General Election to make sure the Tories lost. That was what Cameron was afraid of and why he promised the referendum.
August 30, 2021
but not close enough, and seriously do you really believe you would have combined to dump him! Come on!
August 30, 2021
Now you need to force Boris Johnson to follow through on the recent Command Paper and either get major changes to the Northern Ireland protocol or entirely abrogate it.
Pertinent to which, those who gloat over the diversion of trade being caused by the protocol may not realise that it justifies unilateral remedial action by the UK government.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/840230/Revised_Protocol_to_the_Withdrawal_Agreement.pdf
From Article 16:
“If the application of this Protocol leads to serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties that are liable to persist, or to diversion of trade, the Union or the United Kingdom may unilaterally take appropriate safeguard measures.”
August 30, 2021
Denis Cooper
Agreed – this effective annexation of a part of the UK is totally unacceptable.
What was that about there being promised no border down the Irish sea or was that really just another aspiration?
This needs sorting and ASAP before even more damage, costs and disruption or it will be too late or is that the plan.
August 30, 2021
So, let’s get this right then, John.
Of the millions of the public who voted in a general election, more voted for a party led by Cameron than did for any other single one – even if fewer in total voted for than against it.
However, you and perhaps a few dozen MPs decided that you would remove that leader if you did not get what you wanted.
Don’t you think that it is a bit rich, for you to criticise any European Union institution for any claimed democratic shortcomings then?
Reply Mr Cameron failed to win an outright majority in 2010 when he should have, partly because he did want to grip the EU issue. We were quite entitled to press him to adopt a referendum or to replace him if he didnt. The referendum was not going to take place in that Parliament but in the next if we won the election so there was nothing undemocratic about it.
August 30, 2021
Thank you John.
My point is, who would have voted for the PM with which YOU replaced Cameron, if you had not got your way?
At that point, no one, would they?
August 30, 2021
âReply We Conservative MPs who defied a 3 line whip to demand a referendum got one when Cameron realised we were close to replacing him if he refused.â
Fair play to the 81 Conservative rebels.
However, the mood in the country against the EU was growing. Maybe a party can ignore that, but that only fuels the disconnect between governments and voters.
Whether that is enough to support a new party is a good question.
In Germany the destruction of the money system, street fighting with Communists and a huge resentment of terms imposed on the country by outsiders were necessary. Only then was there a collapse of the ruling establishment and a brand new party headed by a passionate conviction politician.
Britain is not currently near that situation.
August 30, 2021
We have two main parties, but now not much difference between the two. On the surface, theyâre both socialist. The Conservatives who Iâve always thought to understand the bigger picture of life, have really, really lost their way.
So many reader comments describe themselves as former Conservative party members (myself included) and the most hurt are those who were very active in the party.
Our FPTP system seems not to allow new parties, and we desperately need at least one.
A truly Conservative party would have taken a proper stand against this wokeness and CP infiltration into our institutions. And whatâs been allowed to happen with the Covid restrictions and the stupid green nonsense, makes one want to weep!
August 30, 2021
Indeed. They have deliberately allowed all our health and public services to be lead by woke/pc left wingers and the selection processes left as Blair/Campbell changed them all back in 1997. They’ve had 11 years to do something about it but have chosen not to. Ignore ER and BLM protests but enforce anti pandemic imprisonment. No action or deportations of the boat people in 4* Hotels at our expense. Whose would vote for Carrie on Boris at the next election? Gas boilers and ICE banning wins………..no votes!
August 30, 2021
Quote. The Referendum party, UKIP and the Brexit party tried it mainly around an important single issue but only ever won one seat in a General election between them. As I always advised here, if you wanted a referendum and then wanted Brexit done they had to be achieved with Conservative MP votes in the Commons. endquote.
We would never have been given a referendum if not for the fact Cameron could see UKIP was going to take many of his seats away. Particularly after he crawled around Brussels begging for some, any substantial change to EU policies to present as a victory over EU intransigence, which of course he was denied. Nigel Farage gained us the referendum, not the Conservative party.
Reply We got the referendum because a majority of Conservative MPs demanded one
August 30, 2021
no – the ELECTORATE demanded one or you were OUT.
August 30, 2021
….because they didn’t want to lose their seats.
August 30, 2021
No you did not. Sir Nigel and UKIP got us the vote against an anti democratic mostly Liberal former Conservative Party. Actions not words from your leadership!
August 30, 2021
Nonsense
August 30, 2021
Reply to Sir John’s reply to old Albion.
You are twisting the facts Sir John. Ukip under Nigel Farage got us the Referendum AND the result. Your Party messed around for years before it forced May out so that we got some of Brexit.
Now your party is still messing about with a far from complete Brexit and a load of so called Green policies while not letting go of the dictatorial measures it imposed under the pretence of a deadly virus.
Meanwhile YOUR party has a worse Immigration record than the one imposed on us from the EU.
THE PEOPLE will not tolerate it for ever.
August 30, 2021
PB, +1
August 30, 2021
If that is true, it is true because a lot of Tory MPs were afraid of losing their seats because of the success of UKIP in the 2014 EU election.
If only half the people who voted for UKIP in the EU election had voted for UKIP in the 2015 General Election- the Tories would have suffered a landslide win by Labour.
August 31, 2021
âDavid Cameron rocked by record rebellion as Europe splits Tories againâ, guardian.co.uk, 25/10/2011.
âEU referendum: Tory MPs force Commons voteâ, channel4.com, 09/05/2013.
âBrexit: How rebel MPs outfoxed Cameron to get an EU referendumâ, bbc.co.uk, 29/12/2016 (an historical perspective).
And see who were the real actors in the preparation and the subsequent October 2011 and May 2013 votes.
August 31, 2021
Unsurprisingly you link to the Guardian heffy.
The Conservatives friend in the mainstream press.
August 30, 2021
Over time the party labels may be the same but the policies they promote will change as they strive to grasp the nearest passing straw. The end result is a narrowing of differences. It requires significant pressure from outside the two party system to get change as the campaign to leave the EU revealed. Even then the then Conservative political establishment when May was PM sought to overturn the effect of the vote to leave in her notorious Chequers meeting that resulted in the resignations of David Davis and Boris Johnson. Third parties may not get many, if any, MPs elected under FPTP voting but they can and do influence the policies and behaviour of the two dominant parties if they can attract enough public support. What is thoroughly objectional about the current Conservative government is the implementation of policies foisted on voters without proper debate or consultation (notably May’s net zero objective by 2050 which was then accelerated by Johnson to an even earlier date). Too much policy is now at the mercy of vocal special interest groups unmoderated by the views of the silent majority.
August 30, 2021
+1
August 30, 2021
+1 again
August 30, 2021
The political classes govern in opposition to the will of the electorate on most issues.
Some examples of this are:
The ever growing size of the state, funded by ever higher coercive taxation
Control of the media and what is acceptable in the arena of public discussion
Monopoly degradation of education, denying qualification for employment to those not adhering to approved group think
The most fundamental decision of recent times regarding the governance and future of our country, Brexit, was made by the people in the teeth of near universal opposition by the political classes.
It’s time for the demos to restore democracy, not by appointing new political masters, but by using modern technology to enact the wisdom of crowds through direct democracy.
August 30, 2021
Imposing net zero on an unwilling public which is not being followed by any other country.
August 30, 2021
It’s now become clear that there was no need for the IMF under Labour.
For some reason the Chancellor was given “erroneous” figures by “impartial” civil servants.
As to how and why this happened we may now only speculate.
August 30, 2021
oh go on Martin – speculate for us!
August 30, 2021
Good morning
Correction – Not Westminster, Hollyrood. And as for economic management, why should they ? After all, they do not have to whilst the English are bankrolling them. At least the Germans are starting to make a fuss and demand changes and protection from the more profligate parts of the EU. Our lot just stay silent and handover the money.
When they control your money, they can control you !
Reply They did get into first place in Westminster FPTP elections
August 30, 2021
Not a word about democracy and turnout. I do bother to vote, but it is completely pointless. I donât want a Tory or Labour MP. But the first past the post voting system means many people vote Tory to keep Labour out – and vice versa.
Given the risible state of government of this country, how anyone can defend first past the post as providing âstrong governmentâ baffles me.
The real result of first past the post is the election of governments that completely ignore the wishes of the people. Most people did not want âever closer unionâ with the EU – but politicians of both parties signed treaty after treaty without consulting the people. Most people, dare I say it, have never wanted high levels of immigration and the obsession with multiculturalism- but politicians of both main parties have ignored us.
Actually, I guess we do have strong government- in the sense that, based on a minority vote, they do whatever the hell they like when in power. Iâd rather have so called âweak governmentâ if it meant politicians had to listen to the people.
August 30, 2021
And, of course, now we have the insanity of ânet zeroâ. How many people want to have to drive an electric car (they cannot afford) when there is not enough generating capacity and charging points. But the government ignores the people and carries on regardless.
August 30, 2021
Insanity in our time
August 30, 2021
We can expect the PM to issue Rationing books to allow a small charge each week for essentials, like attending protest marches, visiting the SE coast to assist in helping those coming out of the water to find the ‘hospitality service’, visiting Fort Knox like GP surgeries to see if the jailor, oops, staff will give you a form to plead for a consultation, quarterly innoculations at available locations further than 20 miles etc.
August 30, 2021
Mike – you probably read the comments on this blog every day: which ‘people’ should a political candidate/MP or Government be listening to?
If he listened to DOM he would upset MiC, if he listened to Andy he would upset Everhopeful, and so on.
Establish a coalition, so often the result of PR and similar voting methods, and you get either a very watered-down version of what you wanted or even more internecine political squabbling than usual.
There is no perfect electoral system.
August 30, 2021
@SM
I am not suggesting there is a perfect voting or political system. But the one we have now is crap. If you live in Wokingham and do not support the Tory candidate you might as well stay at home and darn your socks when there is an election. Because you have no chance of your vote counting.
The same is true for all but about 120 marginal seats. How is that democratic? How is it democratic when a party gets 25% of the vote but only 8% of the seats (as happened to the Liberal Party a while ago).
Please donât try to argue that, because no system is perfect, we should not try to improve our current imperfect one.
August 30, 2021
For once I am not sure I agree with JRâs analysis. I think the demise of the two main parties in so many European countries is a direct result of their various PR voting systems. Under FPTP we can chuck the buggers out; when the country makes its mind up to have a change of government it can do so. Under PR you can the same people always in government but just blended differently.
August 30, 2021
+10
August 30, 2021
Exactly. PR is a Party’s dream. The voters get to vote, but then the politicians get together behind closed doors to stitch up what you are really going to get.
How many weeks does it take after a German election before the country even finds out what Government it is going to get, and what policies?
August 30, 2021
Traditionally we had right wing and left wing parties. The former believing in low tax, small State favouring free enterprise, private ownership, and conserving socially traditional ideas. The latter being the opposite.
Over the decades, certainly since Major, your party has increasingly moved toward the left culminating in the Johnson regime; which wants to not only interfere in, but also control every aspect of business, social and private life. We now have the highest taxation in 70 years. I do not recognize any Conservative traits in your party.
At present there are no significant right and left wing parties. What we effectively have now is a one-party State with two names, each competing with the other as to who has the most communist policies.
August 30, 2021
@J Bush – the complete and utter destruction of the Conservative Party and conservative values, by the most extreme left wing Government we have ever seen certainly puts Corbyn in the Shade.
I would argue that “The former believing in low tax, small State favouring free enterprise, private ownership, and conserving socially traditional ideas. The latter being the opposite.” doesn’t indicate a right wing movement but a State that trusts its people.
August 30, 2021
Pretty near the truth there J Bush.
August 30, 2021
The failure of Brexit has caused the collapse of most Eurosceptic parties. No other country is willingly leaving the EU – though one hopes that Hungary and/or Poland is expelled.
Because of the unique position of Northern Ireland leaving the EU was always going to be harder for the U.K. than it would be for any other country. If Denmark had been silly enough to leave, for example, there wouldnât be a terror threat on the pointless new border with Germany as there is in NI.
But the Brexitists have made such a complete and utter hash of it – and everyone can see it – that nobody else will follow. They all see the masses of pointless bureaucracy, the huge economic costs and the inconvenience, hassle, expense and fewer opportunities for their citizens and reject out of hand following the minority in GB on the lunatic mission to harm their own country.
August 30, 2021
Thank you for my daily yawn – you never fail to deliver!
August 30, 2021
In your last paragraph Andy you claim Brexit is a disaster and “everyone can see it”
Well it appears you are wrong as usual.
Recent polls, asking did we do the right thing in leaving the EU, show 43% say yes v 44% say no, with more importantly 13% dont knows.
Virtually the same as polls leading up to the referendum.
(Statista August 16th)
August 31, 2021
Peter2
It can still be an economic disaster, which I have shown you in the past
August 31, 2021
Completely irrelevant billy.
Andy said “everyone can see it”
If that were true then polling would show a large majority against leaving the EU.
They dont.
Figures are same as before the referendum.
With 13% don’t knows.
August 30, 2021
It is too early to tell. the jury is out on Brexit. On the one hand it is clear project fear was a load of tosh. on the other hand, apart from the obvious wins of saving ÂŁ12bn pa and establishing a country-of origin blind immigration policy, we have yet to see the Conservatives take advantage of the freedoms of Brexit claimed by Leave in the referendum. time will tell. The key measure will be does the UK or does it not outperform the eurozone and its major economies over the coming years.
But the euro doomsday machine makes it virtually impossible now for most EU countries to contemplate leaving.
you should also ask yourself why it is that 2 of Europe’s most prosperous and politically stable countries, Switzerland and Norway, remain outside the EU, with support in both for joining standing at around just 10%, 25 & 30 years after eurosceptics won referenda there.
August 30, 2021
We heard a lot from Brexitists about Norway and Switzerland before the referendum.
I donât know of any Remainers who would not have accepted a Norwegian or even Swiss style arrangement with the EU – even though both are inferior to EU membership. But despite telling us thatâs what they wanted this is not what Brexitists have delivered.
Basically the problem is that none of you really had a clue what you were voting for. And that is why you have ended up with such a monumental and embarrassing mess. I feel quite sorry for all of you really. You were duped.
August 30, 2021
Amazing how you know how 17.2 million voters hadn’t got a clue
Yet every remain voter presumably has a clue.
What a sage you are, young Andy.
August 30, 2021
If the Norwegian and Swiss arrangements are ‘inferior’ to EU membership in all respects – including liability for eurozone bailouts etc -you would have thought by now that support for membership in those countries would be higher than c. 10% wouldn’t you?
You have no idea how I voted in the referendum
August 30, 2021
Andy
It was not the Brexit voters that made a hash of leaving, it was remainer politicians, and Mrs May in particular, with her non existent negotiation skills, and her desire to remain close to all things EU.
Good grief we now hear that M Barnier wants to modify the EU because he feels it is not working sensibly, either he was lying when negotiating with us, or he is lying now he has ambitions to become the French President, you cannot have it both ways.
August 30, 2021
Brexit is your mess. Grow a pair and own it.
August 30, 2021
Already have a pair Andy thank you
Assume you are talking eyes, ears, hands and feet, and yes I actually own all I have and use, nothing borrowed, nothing owed.
August 30, 2021
We voted to leave.
Come to terms with it.
Brexit isn’t a mess.
Life carries on.
All your Project Fear predictions have failed.
August 31, 2021
Peter2
We do not know the full outcome of Brexit so you are off too early as usual
August 31, 2021
So you agree with me and Alan.
It is very early to claim Brexit is a mess.
Thanks bill.
August 30, 2021
One? – Andy hopes that Hungary and/or Poland is expelled. A great idea because the EU will tighten their grip and refuse a request.
August 30, 2021
No other country is willing to leave the EU. Your one eyed view misses the main reason, hooked on free money, mainly Germany although they try to pretend otherwise plus from the other wealthier nations.
That would have been us had we stated in and in a ratchet so increasing as the economy grew. One of the justifiable reasons I voted to leave, and people like you donât like justifiable because itâs a specific, something that doesnât fit with your agenda of the generalised descriptions you try and attribute to us.
The more I see your red faced anger spewing out spluttering indignant comments, the tastier my continental breakfast becomes.
Keep it up sir but donât ignore the blood pressure tablets.
August 30, 2021
Article 50 made it very nearly impossible to leave the EU.
August 30, 2021
How’s that, then?
The UK could have cut all ties at any time and simply not benefited from any of the arrangements being negotiated under A50.
August 30, 2021
No, not really. Just leaving and trading under WTO rules was a runner at one point, but it never got a majority in Parliament.
That was the Remainer’s one win. They got everyone so panicked about “hard” Brexit that we finished up with middle of the road slop.
They also managed to get the negotiations strung out for four years, which allowed the MSM to write as if some terrible crisis was playing out.
But what did Remainers really achieve? Nothing.
August 30, 2021
Look, the brexit Tories have a majority of eighty.
They can abandon this country’s undertakings – such as they are – with the European Union at any time, and the other side could then do the same re its own with the UK.
So if that would be so good, then why don’t they?
August 30, 2021
It is noting to do with Brexit- it is totally the cowardly remoaners and politicians with no gumption to face down it eu trash. They only have to walk away and refuse to parley !
The eu is finished, but like a stupid dog it runs round in circles.
Stop trading with them they have all to loose.
Ps Andy you should stand for presidency as you are stupid enough to be elected
August 30, 2021
You should not be so modest, Andy. You should also be telling us about the collapse of Newton’s Laws, and your brilliant discovery that two and two actually makes five. And don’t forget Creationism and the Flat Earth.
August 30, 2021
The usual drivel. As I have explained to you before, even the sainted Macron has said he thinks the French would vote to leave if they had a Frexit referendum.
But, being a true EU autocrat, he will never allow the French people a democratic say on their membership of the EU.
August 30, 2021
After my frequent urging of Sir John to go Independent, with no sign of that brave step being taken, is there someone who will start the breaking of the mould? There is a great opportunity now to signpost the political way forward, with possibly all the electorate sick and tired of the farce being perpetuated in Party HQs, H of C and H of L. An indication of the developing nonsense was a bit part joker put in position of new powers sat in Speaker’s chair. Strike out Sir John, as the Stones sang ‘Start me up!’.
August 30, 2021
Had Sir John taken your advice at any point in the past he would not now be an MP. He might still be publishing this excellent blog, but he would be a person of less influence than he now remains, happily for the quality of scrutiny and debate in UK public life.
August 30, 2021
Sir John will have to do something bizarre to lose the backing of Wokingham, although I refuse to want a Conservative government. Each GE now produces an even worse PM outcome. I think you are totally wrong regarding a loss of his seat, the only threat is thousands of new Andys arriving in the sprawling estates.
August 30, 2021
Totally agree Richard
One only has to look at the fate of independent MPs throughout recent history to realise how right you are.
August 30, 2021
Very true. However he knows he, together with several other former ministers, is “yesterday’s man” and has nothing to lose by telling the truth or opposing the government politely and positively. But how many MPs in the government, or hoping to be, keep silent so as not to block their copybook and job prospects?
August 30, 2021
The simple solution is to vote for the person you want as the local MP who appears to best support your wishes, and ignore the Party they belong to. After all your MP is supposed to represent you, and all in your Constituency.
Hence my constantly voting for JR, even though I dislike the way his party is going, but I just hope eventually his thoughts, idea’s, and influence will rub off on some others, so eventually we do get government policies that I think we should have.
If all you are going to do is vote for a Party no matter who the representative is, or what they think, you may as well vote for a cardboard cut out, who will not oppose anything, but always follow the leader as voting fodder !
August 30, 2021
MT
+ 100
If only a real Conservative would be prepared to stand up and break the logjam the electorate would have a natural home, neither of the 2 parties represent my views, Iâve always voted Tory as did my mother but never again and when my membership expires at the end of September thereâs no way Iâll be renewing it
There must be someone prepared to stick their head above the parapet and rescue our Country
August 30, 2021
+99
August 30, 2021
I think Sir John should and could, go Independent. May be there are others in the ‘Once was Conservative’ Party who could do likewise!
Sir John. Do it. Stand in your present Constituency. Even if the Party dared to bring in another candidate, who would win the seat?
August 30, 2021
The Lib Demâs would win if the Tory vote was split. The former MP for Bracknell got a lot of votes in the last election.
August 30, 2021
Mustnât forget our first past the post system. So not comparing like with like. PR encourages smaller parties but can make forming a government more difficult. Italy?
If you want real democracy then change the voting system but that doesnât guarantee better/more representative outcomes.
August 30, 2021
Huh? Italy has a Government? I must have missed that.
Seriously, apart from soccer matches, Italy might as well not even exist.
August 30, 2021
For a large part of the Leave vote, apart from soccer matches, the whole world might as well not even exist.
However, perhaps I should have added cheese strings and scratch cards too.
August 31, 2021
you are such a scathing, childish person. If anybody dare differ from your opinion you treat them with contempt. Look at yourself in the mirror, hold your head up high — can you?
September 1, 2021
It is typical of how the left generally behave.
You will be personally attacked if you dare to refute their set views.
August 30, 2021
has similar roots to the dissatisfaction with political parties in the UK.
Many people feel it makes little difference who is in power, they will get over-taxed, treated like cattle and pushed into the latest politically correct folly whether they approve or not.
Political parties no longer work to the aspirations of the voters, they work to implement their own ideology.
We badly need a new way of thinking – direct democracy is but one idea that would give people the feeling that they had some ability to control the worst excesses of the party in power.
That so much lemmingism exists in politics around the world, simply shows we are ruled by bureaucrats, certainly not innovative passion.
August 30, 2021
The hitherto nominally centre right UK Conservative Party has also collapsed.
It is now a populist, English nationalist, right wing, counter-Enlightenment grouping like those minority parties on the Mainland.
Some of the names and faces may have remained the same, but that is all.
August 30, 2021
Populist….following the wishes of the electors.
English nationalists…OK for Wales Scotland and Northern Ireland but not England you think.
Right wing…what Boris?
Hilarious political analysis by you MiC
August 30, 2021
Peter2
Actually MIC is not far off in his analysis
August 30, 2021
Well tell us why bill.
Stop teasing us.
August 31, 2021
Peter 2
I am sure you cen see it you are a big boy?
August 31, 2021
No billy, that’s why I asked you to explain your cryptic comment.
August 30, 2021
Thats crystal clear then!
August 30, 2021
And your crazy net-zero and failed immigration policy will see you out of power for the foreseeable future.
Why politicians squander their time in power by pandering to foreigners and the leftie woke is a mystery to me.
The SNP broke through in Scotland which shows that a new party in England can rise up. The English were so annoyed by Brexit they gave The Brexit Party a huge majority in the European elections. The current two main parties can only abuse their voters for so long before people will either stop voting or turn to the alternatives.
Be complacent at your peril.
August 30, 2021
Of course they are complacent. Twenty dissatisfied customers on here means nothing. A lot of people on here go on about âclimate lunacyâ etc.
If you posted a proposition on the government website to the effect that âwe the undersigned do not believe we should aim for net zero and reject the banning of ICE cars etc.â I guarantee you would not get the 100,000 signatures needed to precipitate a debate in Parliament.
Most people just donât care – they are too busy making a living and enjoying their leisure.
August 30, 2021
Interestingly Sir John – this morning you highlight the 2 elements that led to the isolation of political groupings in the UK at election time – The usual labour bankrupting the UK and the Conservatives flying in the face of logic with the E-ERM.
Where will Boris’s fighting the people by destroying the whole economy on the back of being an eco-warrior , by out-bidding other World Powers, those we compete with for revenue, our competitors in wealth creation, put the Conservative Party at election time. CCO can’t keep banking on the idea that an ineffective opposition will last for ever.
August 30, 2021
I have always suspected that the only people more surprised than David Cameron at the result of the Brexit Referendum were Messrs Johnson and Gove, which is why they made such a mess of the subsequent leadership election.
You are no doubt right that the factor in Parliament that caused Cameron to grant the Referendum was the number of his own supporters that favoured it, but I am equally sure that a major cause of the eventual outcome, was the existence in the outside world of a single issue pro-Brexit party: UKIP. A phenonomen that bears thinking about is the difference in the success of UKIP between what it achieved in Parliamentary elections, which as you say, in common with all ‘Third parties’ so far, was not much, and how it fared in UK local elections, and elections for the European Parliament, where in both, its success was considerable. It clearly showed that I was not the only person happy to vote differently in General Elections, to how I did in other elections.
I do not think Leave would have won the Referendum without the publicity UKIP gave to its cause over a lengthy period, and I think that before any other country leaves the EU, it will require the existence in that country of a strong anti-EU party, even if that is not successful inParliamentary elections.
August 30, 2021
The UK has only maintained a duopoly of power because it has an extreme first past the post system that only rewards geographical concentrations of vote. Obviously this assists Regional Parties such as the SNP, but it brutally excludes new National Parties.
This system is not, as it sometimes claimed, enshrined in history. It became a mass democratic mechanism only in the 20th century when organised Labour and its opponents provided 2 sensible coalitions. Now that system has gone it is an ongoing source of National failure.
In 2017 the UK was given a choice between a clique of hard left Marxists and a Conservative Party which adopted UKIP`s policies .Most votes were cast due to an extreme dislike of the other Party , the high turnout reflecting mutual loathing rather than any possible compromise or optimistic vision.
At the moment the problem of the safe seat, predominates with Southern Conservative seats coping with No Deal Brexit, high taxes rampant slash and burn development and the denigration of the values and achievements on a daily basis.
August 30, 2021
Unfortunately we did not vote for AV when we had the chance in the 2011 referendum.
It enables a single MP to be directly elected for a particular constituency as for FPTP but only when they have received 50% or more of the votes from the first and, if necessary, second preferences.
So it enables the voters to vote for new parties without the danger of a split vote resulting in the unintended election of an MP who definitely does not represent the constituencyâs views
August 30, 2021
None of the parties now represent the people who elected them John. Rather, they represent some higher oligarchy that provides instructions.
A more root and branch reform is required in parliament. A large percentage of the 650 oxygen thieves in the commons could go, along with most of the elderly in the care home called the Lords.
I know it sounds a trifle radical but, believe me, this current system we have is not working and requires a thorough transformation.
August 30, 2021
The only reason that Labour and the Conservatives have retained their stranglehold on British politics is because there is currently no viable alternative. I would like to see all the fringe parties merge so they do not split the vote.
How long will this lack of a new party continue ? Or will we have to wait for a religious sectarian party to emerge ?
August 30, 2021
“I know some contributors here want a new or third party to emerge” As that it, the issue? Or is it that once elected the Government of the day instantly forgets who they serve, who lent the right to lead. Get sucked up into the establishment and there own ego’s. The UK administration is not a ‘head of State’ it is the protector of democracy, safety and security of the UK – those are the first things that go by the board.
This time around the People of the UK put their cross and their faith in the Conservative Party and finished up with a controlling Socialist Government, that couldn’t even respect the EU stay/or leave referendum – they didn’t vote for that, so yes there is disillusionment.
As already suggested today – the Conservative Party “believing in low tax, small State favouring free enterprise, private ownership, and conserving socially traditional ideas” might have been the collective campaigning stance but it is everything this Government is fighting against
August 30, 2021
Absolutely Nota.
That collective campaigning stance is very similar to the old style Ukip philosophy.
It is also what J.R. has always stood for.
But it has very little resemblance to the Conservative Party now governing us.
August 30, 2021
It is true the first past the post system means a third party faces formidable challenges. That does not mean they are without influence. UKIP forced an EU referendum, and now look where we (and they) are.
The new SDP is considerably to the right of the Conservative party on social and cultural issues. They are left of centre economically, but since in practice that means more government intervention which is Tory party policy anyway, a more mercantilist approach to imports and exports (which I believe you support) and fiscal conservatism (via the mechanism of higher taxes) I find that bearable.
If the Conservative party doesnât get its act together on illegal migration and indeed on economic migration, on house building, on education and culture indeed if it doesnât start acting like a Conservative party rather than a liberal one, my vote will drift elsewhere. If enough people do the same That will influence the Conservative party in a similar way to UKIP.
Time is ticking. There is an 80 seat majority and the demographics are against conservatives. The time to conserve is now. Get on with it. If that means kicking out BoJo, so be it.
August 30, 2021
‘demographics are against conservatives’. Absolutely correct. The Tory government by allowing and condoning politicised immigration is signing the death warrant of the Tory party, in time.
August 30, 2021
Big demo in London on Saturday, unreported by BBC and mainstream media, wonder what it was about.
Police with red flashes on their shoulders, but no identification numbers, made the new style arrests/humiliations. Are any politicians interested in Saturday’s events?
August 30, 2021
Iago,
I was aware that there was to be a demo in London on Saturday but no details were available about where unless you subscribed to an app.
It seems there were several. Anti vaccine protesters crossed various London bridges and finished up on Clapham Common.
Meanwhile Extinction Rebellion were demonstrating around Smithfield Market.
August 30, 2021
“I was aware that there was to be a demo in London on Saturday but no details were available about where unless you subscribed to an app.”
The irony in that sentence is thick enough to spread with knife.
August 30, 2021
The reason we have two main parties in the U.K. is because thanks to FPTP, those two parties have the electorate stitched up between them. How can it be right that more people voted for UKIP in 2015 than the Green Party, SNP, Plaid Cymru and Liberal Democrats put together and yet only returned one MP. So literally millions of votes are meaningless and we are stuck with the same two green crap, tax and spend socialist nanny state parties Labour and Conservative.
August 30, 2021
Jools. See John’s reply to me earlier.
August 30, 2021
I don’t want a new party. I don’t want to “reform” the House of Lords – I want it put back the way it was before Blair messed it up. I don’t want PR, that lets the parties that get the *fewest* votes decide who forms a government.
I want the old Conservative Party back. The one that believed in smaller government, lower taxes, deregulation, freedom of speech and free enterprise. The one that wouldn’t have cowered before the Chinese Communist Party or pandered to anti-white racism. The one that wouldn’t have wrecked our economy over unscientific climate and covid hokum. The one that, when I was a young man and Lady Thatcher was our leader, made me feel proud, rather than embarrassed, to be British.
Any chance?
August 30, 2021
Sorry, Colin, no chance. The nation-state, and a Conservative party that believes in it, has no place in the global agendas we are seeing imposed on us. Johnson’s government is all for net zero Co2, third-world immigration, and the covid hokum, as you rightly call it. The forces pushing these agendas are massively well-funded, powerful and highly inter-connected. To stand up to them would require the sort of courage and determination earlier British leaders might have had, but not our present ones, not in any of the main political parties. In my opinion this country’s political system needs to be rebuilt from the bottom up, through local associations taking powers away from local councils, which mainly act as a conveyor belt for central government diktats. How that can be enabled to happen democratically is the next key challenge. But if we don’t take it up, and at ground level put grit in the machine of those global agendas, we are heading for tyranny.
August 30, 2021
Hat man we have already had tyranny – Covid tyranny – and it has not gone away.
It may have stepped back out of the limelight for a bit but we still have Mandatory Jabs. Jabs for kids without parental consent. Domestic vaccination passports.
Still to come – no I.C. transport. No fossil fuel heating/lighting.
We may be almost free of the E.U. but we are even further enmeshed in the U.N.’s bid for World wide Tyranny.
Led by what used to be a Conservative Party.
August 30, 2021
I am pretty sure Sainsburys would be really smug if the planning system stopped any rivals emerging for them. It would not be good for us as consumers.
Our voting system stops any rivals from emerging to Labour and the Tories. It might one day be responsible for someone like Corbyn being in charge of the UK (imagine if he had been in charge in 97 and not Blair) – a frightening thought and a good reason for PR to come in.
August 30, 2021
There is nothing to stop new parties emerging and gaining a increasing number of MPs.
It seems voters, who are free to vote as they wish, mainly like Labour and Conservative parties and to a lesser extent, the Lib Dems.
Start a party with really appealing policies then become the Government.
August 30, 2021
Oh Peter, there isn’t a term to describe the utter naivety of your thinking
August 30, 2021
Try to come up with one Dom.
There is a challenge for you.
August 30, 2021
Sure. If the voters wish to retain the system they seem to be familiar with, even by inaction, they are entitled to do so.
August 30, 2021
@Peter2
Twaddle from the first word to the last. Maybe you didnât notice how many people supported UKIPâs policies but they still couldnât get a single MP elected.
August 31, 2021
Mike
Thanks for your detailed analysis Mike.
There were simply not enough votes in particular individual constituencies to win.
You blame the system.
But if more voters really wanted a UKIP MP they would have voted for one.
They are free not to vote for Conservative and Labour candidates if they want to.
Just adding up the total number of votes nationwide is irrelevant.
We elect the candidate with the most votes in individual constituencies.
August 30, 2021
Bloody depressing.
So maintain membership of the Tory Party in order to have a vote in leadership contests. Give tactical support and cash to Reform UK ( there absolutely no other option amongst established political parties) in an attempt to put the willies up the Tories in local elections, PCCs, mayoral stuff etc. Hold the feet of own Tory MP to the fire to ensure they are not completely pink or threaten deselection.
Iâm really not hopeful amid green madness, robbing our freedoms, bowing to woke nutjobs and coming to the usual suspects (us) to pay the bill for millions tossing it off 17 months, and counting!
August 30, 2021
Sir JR,
this is an interesting contribution on the continental party system but not particularly accurate, besides the trends for the two major political blosks in the apst.
1) The EU budget has not changes significantly in terms of percentage of GDP over the past ten years.
2) The proportion of Eu infuence on the level and different taxes across frontiers is not that significant and has not changed much either.
3) The anti-Eu party you are taking about in Italy is now pro-EU and has actually supported the coalition government in Parliament.
So, yes the story on the EU from you is somewhat distorted
August 30, 2021
1.
2010 122 billion
2020 169 billion
Quite a big rise considering all this extra just comes from member states
Mainly Germany plus Holland and UK
28 members with only 9 paying in.
2
The treaties of Lisbon and Mastricht have already given the EU all the powers they need on taxes.
3
Italy isn’t able to fight back against the EU in financial terms.
They are propped up by the ECB and have seen what happened to Greece if you step out of line.
August 31, 2021
No, people in ICUs aren’t able to “fight back” against the doctors are they?
August 31, 2021
Peter 2
We were talking about a growing budget to GDP which has not been the case for thep ast 5 years.
The Tax policies were implemented years ago and most taxes are not influenced by the treaties you mentioned, which is many years ago.
So for all three you have not answered any of the points I mentioned, but then I did not expect you to do so.
But, Peter, do not worry it is OK
August 31, 2021
You are wrong again bill
There has been a big increase in the EU budget in cash terms as I demonstrated.
You cling to GDP as a relative measure for obvious statistical reasons.
Taxation powers are in the treaties.
They dont need further powers.
My point about Italy is a commonly accepted financial position.
Italy is supported by loans from the ECB
It is natural the EU will require them to behave in a certain way.
Why are you defensive about these obvious things bill?
It seems you desperately need to pretend these things do not exist.
I’m not concerned as we are out of the EU
Dont be a denier.
September 1, 2021
Peter 2
you are not answering the concerns I raised and you should really know better, but then you probably do not
August 30, 2021
There are statements in JR’s gloss that seem not quite accurate. One is the following:
“if you wanted a referendum and then wanted Brexit done they had to be achieved with Conservative MP votes in the Commons.” Nobody believed that before December 2019. Cameron had pretended he would challenge the Treaty of Lisbon but then pushed it through. He was clearly set on state corporatist EU adherence until UKIP’s strong support and success in the local government elections in 2013 convinced him that without the promise of an EU referendum the Tories would disappear. Having unexpectedly won in 2015 he then had to hold the referendum. The Conservatives’ next leader – even more stubborn and sly than Cameron – decided to covertly subvert the democratic result and only pretend to leave the EU. Boris Johnson was voted in – again only with the support of Brexit Party voters – and he too turned out to be incapable of breaking away from the Brussels bloc: he lastingly betrayed our fishing industry and harmed our political and relations trading within the UK without gaining the slightest advantage – all for his fear of genuine independence, his personal political vanity project of ‘an oven-ready deal’ and the illusion of ‘getting Brexit done’ – a transparently manipulative phrase I’m astonished to see you use, Sir John – for you must be aware that the present impasse does no such thing as achieving national independence. To do that we must resile from the ECHR and abolish the HRA while writing ourselves a mature constitution.
Reply I used the phrase used in the election. I myself did not vote for the EU Agreement . I was the only MP to make the case for WTO terms exit.
August 30, 2021
Eaxtly, Sir John, and all credit for that, it was our opportunity, and we blew it. Hence my surprise that you used the phrase. For brexit cannot ‘get done’ like an oven roast – it is a restoration and revolution combined, a patient process of constant constitutional reform that may take decades.
August 30, 2021
I think it is time for Direct Democracy.
August 30, 2021
And when do you propose that we should invade Syracuse?
August 30, 2021
You could sum up all the comments today as saying that everyone hates the two main UK parties, which is why they keep voting for them. And the UK system needs radical reform, which is will never get because the voters won’t vote for it. And we need a viable third party, which we will never get because the voters won’t vote for it. Same with PR, social credit and antidisestablishmentarianism.
It’s all so undemocratic.
August 30, 2021
Also, although Sir John seems to imply the SNP’s voters have radical separatist constitutional independence mainly in mind, I doubt that they do. That may be the SNP’s USP, but its voters, propped up by the Barnett Formula, can afford to ignore the UK economy and vote SNP just to create angst and anglophobic mischief. No one impartially observing their televised behaviour in the Commons can doubt the latter to be their sole intention. The perennial threat that SNP MPs will create a Westminster coalition government with Labour is a trap that Labour meekly fall into before each election – and has shored up the Tory electoral vote since 2010, in turn swelling anti-Tory Scottish discontent and shoring up the SNP’s ‘legitimacy’ in Holyrood. That self-serving, puckish SNP game could go on for ever, and the solution is not obvious.
September 3, 2021
Sir John, Conservative votes in the Commons means votes by people who aren’t in the main conservative at all. The very reason we signed the Withdrawal Agreement leaving NI under EU control, agreeing a financial settlement that they said would pave the way for a financial services deal (but didn’t), and an EU “deal” that provided for EU sanctions if we ever depart from their regulations is because Conservative MPs are not conservative. We have witnessed the spectacle in recent days of Conservatives calling for the flying of huge numbers of refugees from Afghanistan into our country — literally flying in a future rape and terrorism crisis. Who do you vote for if you’re concerned that 59% of live births in England and Wales are to British mothers? We are heading, as Oxford University professor David Coleman worked out, for minority status in our own country by 2066. And the number of Conservatives who would vote to stop that can be numbered on the fingers of one hand…. Your claim that to do anything, you have to vote Conservatives is just a way of keeping us voting for Cultural Marxism in one form or another.