Keep officials in post for longer

The civil service has too many grades, switches people around too often and then has to buy in expertise from consultants.

If some one is only going to spend a couple of years or so in a job before moving onwards and often upwards there is difficulty in that person learning enough, building enough relationships and contacts to do the job well and having a wide and deep body of knowledge about that set of problems. The civil service needs to keep more people in jobs for longer, and reward them better for staying in post with performance pay or with promotion whilst staying in the same area.

I remember as Single market Minister finding our officials were often switched whilst some other countries kept people in post in Brussels for much longer to build their contacts and understand how the system worked.

Regular  switching is linked with several grades of official being involved in Decisions and framing advice.It means no-one is ever to blame or responsible for handling a problem when it emerges. If something goes badly wrong the enquiry usually concludes it was a system failure an£ recommends a set of procedural changes for the future. In business there is more individual responsibility set out in the definitions of jobs and the authority levels granted to the staff. There can then be a more direct relationship between performance, pay and promotion, and faster response  to problems which may need staff change.

There needs to be more regular review of tasks and staffing in the civil service. Flatter structures for more matters would help. Clearer named responsibility and build up of expertise is  essential. there should be less resort to consultancies to do the work when there are officials on the payroll to do it.

58 Comments

  1. Ian wragg
    December 17, 2024

    You can’t possibly think civil Serpents can be held responsible for any failures in post. The whole ethos of public duty is obfuscation and blame shifting.
    Most have no real world experience within their brief and consequently expensive outside contractors or advisors are brought in.
    We can’t have any public servant being held responsible, look at the recent murder of the young girl and the judge/ social workers being granted anonymity. The whole process stinks.

    1. Peter Wood
      December 17, 2024

      I believe our host has written on this before, or similar, and others too on many occasions. The problem is well known. The real question is whose responsibility is it to get the necessary performance from individuals and value for money? If the answer is a ‘senior civil servant’, then there’ll be no change.

    2. Lifelogic
      December 17, 2024

      Indeed it does. Look at the whole of the net zero insanity and the energy lunacy. What is the mix of graduates in the department of energy? If 5% have degrees in relevant subject I would be surprised. The climate change committee is now headed up by a deluded classics graduate. The head of a new “Mission Control centre for clean energy” has a half law degree. But would any sensible and honest engineer or physicist want take up a job of lying to the public, wrecking the economy and destroying our energy systems?

      1. Lifelogic
        December 17, 2024

        Can someone tell all the dopes at the “Mission Control centre for clean energy” that CO2 is not dirty but actually a net good. Also that EVs, Heat-pumps, renewables, burning wood at Draz, cycling, walking, public transport, exporting high energy jobs do not really save any (or any significant) CO2 anyway. They just lower living standard and increase energy costs and instability for nothing.

      2. hefner
        December 17, 2024

        The CCC’s interim head is Prof Piers Foster BSc (Physics, Imperial College), PhD (Meteorology, U.Reading), prof of Climate Change at U.Leeds.

        1. Lynn Atkinson
          December 17, 2024

          The division is between those who sell out and those who are independent, not between those with ability and without.

          1. Lifelogic
            December 17, 2024

            Indeed.

        2. Lifelogic
          December 17, 2024

          Imperial College people were largely responsible for the absurd over reaction to Covid, the imsane net harm lockdowns were they not? At least Prof Piers Foster resigned to pass it on to this daft, absurd, ignorant of reality Classics graduate.

        3. MFD
          December 17, 2024

          How can one become a professor of something that is a scam? by practicing lies perhaps!

  2. Mark B
    December 17, 2024

    Good morning.

    It means no-one is ever to blame or responsible for handling a problem when it emerges.

    Sounds all to familiar. Cannot be a coincidence, can it ? 😉

    I have spoken before about the ex-civil serpent (Owen) who I once worked with. The one who really liked meetings and would get everyone to agree to what he wanted etc. Result – Everyone was to blame. Here it is, no one to blame because they have all moved on.

    The ‘system’ is the way it is because those benefitting from it like it that way. Ergo – No change.

    1. Donna
      December 17, 2024

      True to a degree. But someone will have signed off the decision which was mutually agreed. He/she is therefore responsible but would defend their decision-making by citing the support of colleagues IF they were in a position to be held to account (thereby demonstrating their communication and team-working skills). Usually they’ll be long gone.

  3. David Andrews
    December 17, 2024

    Responsibility is further evaded by the creation by parliament of quangos with statutory powers. Recovery of control of those powers by MPs will require abolition of the quangos.

    1. Paul Salvidge
      December 24, 2024

      Well said, David Andrews. I don’t know if we need to abolish all the quangos, if I read you correctly (please forgive me if I did not) because some, I am sure, will be areas of expertise. But on the loss of powers, effectively from accountable to Parliament ministers – to non-accountable non-ministerial departments – is a scandal in any democracy. These quangos are like thieves in the night – bit by bit stealing accountability. Sorry I am not as succinct as you – but your point is so useful, helpful and insightful that I wanted you to know you are far from alone.

  4. David Peddy
    December 17, 2024

    And accountability
    When did you last hear of a Civil Sevant being sacked ?

  5. Wanderer
    December 17, 2024

    When politicians stay in ministerial posts for long periods, accept responsibility for their own failures and resign when they seriously mess things up, we might have leaders who are prepared to tackle reform of the civil service.

    Meanwhile, the CS and their political masters/puppets will not work efficiently for the public good and continue the no-blame game (consultants, quangos and “independent bodies” rejoice).

  6. Berkshire alan
    December 17, 2024

    Civil servants constantly moving around, with now working from home,
    Ministers being rotated, government policy forever changing.
    No wonder the country is in a mess, is inefficient, lacks clarity of thought, direction, and management.
    The system and its people simply unfit for purpose.

  7. agricola
    December 17, 2024

    What you say and the first three comments this morning are all valid. It is the real Yes Minister.

    The only ommission is that the same arguments can be applied to MPs . At least the CS arrive with a degree of intellectual ability having passed an entry examination. The ability might get diverted in post but it is a starting point that cannot be attributed to all MPs. Check out the political government.

  8. Donna
    December 17, 2024

    Civil Servants are supposed to have transferable skills and these are supposed to be assessed during the recruitment/promotion process. So if the CS has been assessed in having the correct skill level for roles at a particular level of seniority they are considered qualified for any role which has been placed within that paygrade. Whether they actually have the required knowledge to do it is irrelevant, unless for instance, the job specifically requires a Law Degree.

    The recruitment/promotion process requires the candidate to demonstrate the experience they have gained in a variety of situations, their knowledge-base is not tested. So in order to progress it is beneficial for the individual to change roles fairly regularly to broaden their experience/transferable skills. If they are in a more senior role, it is beneficial for them to make significant changes to “make an impact” which they can talk-up at the next Recruitment Panel – and then move. By the time “the impact” of the changes they implemented are made abundantly clear they will be long gone.

    Building up expertise will only be possible if the entire recruitment and promotion process is reviewed and the value of knowledge is recognised and rewarded.

  9. J+M
    December 17, 2024

    The same applies to ministerial appointments. Ministers are appointed with no expertise in the subject matter of their brief and then reshuffled 12 months later. Combined with the civil service merry go round it is a recipe for very poor government.

    1. hefner
      December 17, 2024

      See Rory Stewart’s ®Politics on the Edge’ for getting an idea of the churning of ministers.
      Also Institute for Government 13/11/2023 ‘Is this the age of churn in UK politics?’

      1. Lynn Atkinson
        December 17, 2024

        In his case remaining in post for a lifetime would not have inculcated the ethos of road sweeping 😏

    2. Lifelogic
      December 17, 2024

      The main skills required of ministers seems to be:- Serial lying with a straight face, evading answering questions when interviewed or stating the blindingly obvious.

      Such as we want an integrated, safe, clean, efficient, cost effective, affordable, reliable… Transport System for example. As if anyone was suggesting a disintegrated, unsafe, dirty, inefficient, unreliable, cost ineffective & rip off one!

  10. Sharon
    December 17, 2024

    I wrote to my MP about breast binding in schools because I’d heard a rumour that one of the local girls schools was encouraging it. He forwarded my letter of concern to a department in education… who wrote back saying it was a matter of decision making by individual schools.

    The reply I got to my letter of shock at his response was ….I’m sorry, Mr xxxxx no longer works in this department! For goodness sake!

    Nobody else took up the gauntlet- that was the end of that!

  11. Bloke
    December 17, 2024

    Much of government remains badly run, muddled and failing.

    1. Lifelogic
      December 17, 2024

      Nearly all of government.

      On the positive side they are often doing things so stupid that they inflict net harms for the public this by following directions that are usually 180 degree out from what is needed or wanted (as with Net Zero) and so poor implementation and sloth can rather perversely be a good thing.

  12. Roy Grainger
    December 17, 2024

    I think there’s an argument for having swathes of political appointees in the very upper levels of the CS who are on short contracts and who change when the government changes. More like the American system. To be fair Labour are already doing this and they also have plenty of supporters amongst the permanent staff but this approach should be formalised. It would be the only way a centre-right government could get their policies implemented without obstruction and delay and the CS developing their own opposing policies. The Treasury would be a key area to apply this approach with senior private sector finance staff running the show and being paid and incentivised accordingly. The days when the CS were politically neutral are long gone and we shouldn’t pretend they aren’t.

  13. Narrow Shoulders
    December 17, 2024

    The system is designed so that no one is ever held responsible. I suspect that the civil service has rarely sanctioned an employee for incompetence or insubordination.

    Easier to just move them and pay them elsewhere. It’s only our money after all.

    Kind of mirrors the political landscape where ministers are moved on and don’t take responsibility.

  14. Sakara Gold
    December 17, 2024

    It’s not just the civil service. Yet again, the issue of children’s safeguarding by religious organisations has been brought to the public’s attention. Time and again senior clergy/vicars and their management have been shown to have known about, covered up and protected the perpetrators of the abuse, moved them to a different parish – or paid the victims off with NDA’s etc

    In the case of the Roman Catholic church, it is mandatory that the clergy and their hierarchy are unmarried – as it is with their religious orders and nuns. Inevitably, this rule attracts a minority of sexual predators and abusers, who can expect to be protected when their deviancy comes to light. This has been going on for decades and probably centuries.

    The time has come to legislate against allowing spiritual leaders of whatever persuasion, Christian or non-Christian, having unsupervised access to children and their families. This must include the smaller non-mainstream cults, particularly those who are secretive; failure to report allegations of abuse must attract prosecutions and lengthy prison terms. It must also automatically disbar from promotion within the organisation.

    1. Donna
      December 18, 2024

      What do you suggest we do about idiotic Social Workers and Judges who have clear evidence that a parent is both violent and abusive but think it’s appropriate to return a young girl to that parent’s “care?”

      Personally I think they should be summarily dismissed; lose their pensions and be prosecuted for facilitating child abuse.

  15. Dave Andrews
    December 17, 2024

    It hardly helps when the MPs come along with perhaps a PPE degree, student politics and trade union experience. What is needed is MPs with relevant business experience, who can deliver departmental efficiency and push back against obfuscation. You don’t need outside consultants if the MPs can bring the necessary capability. For this to happen, the electorate needs to vote in better MPs, assuming there are credible candidates standing for election.

    1. Lynn Atkinson
      December 17, 2024

      That’s our fault. We need to seek out the very, very best independent minds.

  16. IanT
    December 17, 2024

    When I ran my business, it was pretty much required to be ISO 9000 accredited to be considred for Government contracts. It cost lot of money, time and effort for us to get there. The concept was simple. Document every process and then, if something went wrong, either the process was flawed or the person hadn’t followed the process, maybe both. You reviewed the failure and either improved the documented process or reminded, retrained or disciplined the employee(s). There was an annual audit of everything. On balance it worked and we were a better business for these changes.

    I never saw any evidence that the government departments demanding that we operate under ISO 9000 were doing the same.

    1. IanT
      December 17, 2024

      Going off (todays) topic. 10 year Gilt yields seem to be creeping up again – 4.533% today.
      Investors seem worried about the future. I wonder why?

    2. a-tracy
      December 18, 2024

      Good point, Ian.

  17. Simon
    December 17, 2024

    I think you are just shuffling decks around the titanic with a proposal like this. First, there needs to be mass firings of people that have been seen to be acting against the best interests of the UK (Home Office may not have many people left), and a total eradication of anyone to do with EDI. And then we could start to ensure people who have the in-depth knowledge of the areas of the state can remain but providing they are acting solely in the interests of UK taxpayers.

    1. Bloke
      December 17, 2024

      Yes Simon. Removing the dead wood seems near always the best thing to do first. Only then what is worth keeping can be properly organised and developed in fitness for purpose.

  18. Lifelogic
    December 17, 2024

    There are 7 commonly used C/S tests it seems. No specialist knowledge or experience is needed for our tests they say.

    Civil Service Verbal Test (Verbal Test)
    Civil Service Numerical Test (Numerical Test)
    Civil Service Judgement Test (Judgement Test)
    Civil Service Management Judgement Test (Management Judgement Test)
    Civil Service Work Strengths Test (Work Strengths Test)
    Customer Service Skills Test (Customer Service Test)
    Casework Skills Test (Casework Test)
    You may be asked to complete one or more of these – we’ll say whether this is the case on the job advert. No specialist knowledge or experience is needed for our tests.

  19. Madge
    December 17, 2024

    It’s the civil service AIG policy. A decision is made to please the bosses and the decision-maker then moves on so that when the problems with the decision are revealed the AIG policy is invoked – After I’ve Gone!

  20. Bryan Harris
    December 17, 2024

    If this advice is aimed at the current administration then it is wasted breath. Starmer is never going to upset the civil service by getting them to be more efficient. It’s not in his blood, and certainly not in his political outlook.

    How many past ministers recognized the issues our host has described, probably most of them, and yet any minister that tried to impose his or her will was either forced to back down or their political life poisoned.

    Exactly when was it that the government of the day lost control of its own agenda due to the power of the civil service. It was well before Thatcher because she certainly recognized the problems caused, and yet was unable to correct them.

    We certainly need a coup of some sort to get authority back where it belongs – with the people of this country! Taming the civil service is just one more thing to be done to have a properly functioning regime.

  21. Bryan Harris
    December 17, 2024

    Winter is coming and it looks like being a harsh one considering how cold December has been.

    Not long ago, the UK’s Office for National Statistics asked an interesting question: how has climate change affected the number of people who die from temperature-related effects in the UK? No answer was available that supported netzero.

    The IPCC have found no link between human activities and the supposed climate threats they list, the majority of Met Office weather stations from which the “10 warmest years” claim originate are discovered to produce “junk” and “super junk” data under international quality classification criteria.

    Energy companies have already told us that power cuts are likely this winter due to HMG’s irrational policies, and by removing the winter fuel allowance this callous government has ensured that many will suffer badly from the cold.

    There is an excellent TV program, ‘How the Universe works’, that explains much about the universe, but specifically it has shown why our planet goes through hot and cold periods. It is nothing to do with what Man actually does, for the forces of the universe are so much more powerful, and in some cases predictable by real science.
    The IPCC have never been too hot on real facts, but they will certainly be complicit in the deaths of many elderly this year.

  22. agricola
    December 17, 2024

    Given the opportunity I would not tinker with time in post arrangements, I would totally change the CS. The ministry of agriculture would draw from graduates of an agricultural college who had also passed through Harvard business school and managed a farm. Then at the age of 35+ they could take up a senior position, at equivalent business pay in the Min Ag. Everyone would be on a contract of employment. In effect it would mean that the Minister for Agriculture would need to be of similar expertise. No place for ex local council committee members in a parliamentary seat, acting as talking ballast for failure.

    There you have it. Will it happen, never in this toytown of public administration where failure supports and nurtures even greater failure.

  23. Original Richard
    December 17, 2024

    More importantly, are the Civil Servants qualified for their jobs?

    At DESNZ, those of the senior management who have degrees, have them in modern history, economics and social history, geography, criminology and modern languages (German & French).

    On the non-executive board there are degrees in engineering & management (?), business administration , modern history and physical chemistry.

    The UK special representative for climate has degrees in history & politics and international relations.

    The Chief Scientific Adviser does have a degree in Atmospheric Chemistry and Earth Observation Science but not in engineering. However, this is better than the Chief Scientific Adviser to The Treasury who has a degree in foreign languages and literature.

    I no longer believe the Civil Service works to benefit the UK. Why else would they employ people unqualified for their roles?

  24. glen cullen
    December 17, 2024

    Its well know that three year military postings, are configured – first year learning the job, second year doing the job and third year handing over the job 
.works fine in infantry/combat role, but doesn’t work in admin, logistic or procurement roles were those roles should be five+ years

    1. glen cullen
      December 17, 2024

      In the private sector, you do the job from day one, and remain there until a promotion opportunity arises

  25. Rod Evans
    December 17, 2024

    Jobs for the boys John, it is simply that. Increasingly jobs for the girls too, these days. No matter how incompetent the money is guaranteed and the risk of being fired are zero.
    What’s not to like?

    1. Lifelogic
      December 17, 2024

      In every year since 2001, more than half of all civil servants have been female: the proportion was 54.5% in 2024.
      Diversity in the civil service – Institute for Government

      It is ideal for women as it fits around other family commitments, you can often work from home, take plenty of sick days, good maternity terms, almost never get sacked, decent pension, not too demanding…

      A friend of mine you joined the civil service was (on her first day) told of all the holiday rights etc. and also told she could also take circa 25 (i think it was 25) sick days off without these even being questioned. As if this was also an additional holiday entitlement perk.

      1. a-tracy
        December 18, 2024

        Do you have the figures on female sickness days compared to male sickness days in these civil service departments? Men have paternity leave now, often able to share leave if they work in the public sector (a great perk is the rest of us working in the private sector with two weeks’ father’s leave at ÂŁ184.03 per week pay extra taxes to give to those serving us generously). Do you know for sure that men take fewer holidays?

  26. formula57
    December 17, 2024

    Why both of “…keep more people in jobs for longer, and reward them better for staying in post…”? It seems axiomatic that any proposed change to jobs in the civil service will include increases in pay.

    Certainly ” Clearer named responsibility and build up of expertise is essential” although Foreign Secretary Rabb’s efforts to see disclosed names of officials giving advice was not welcomed by the civil service.

    Both changes represent an attack upon the ethos of the civil service that seems to prefer the notion that its staff are wholly interchangeable, with one individual able to substitute for any other.

  27. Keith from Leeds
    December 17, 2024

    Most comments agree that Civil Servants are not doing their jobs properly. I expect there is a core of hard-working, competent Civil Servants who are just as frustrated by their colleague’s lacklustre approach and doing as little as possible.
    But you will only change things through tough but fair management, which must start with the Ministers in charge of the various departments. But until we get a tough PM prepared to make at least 400,000 Civil Servants redundant, there will be no change or improvement.
    The current PM and Government will do nothing but make things worse. Thus, the challenge for the Conservatives and Reform is to find a solution. Don’t waste the next four years, do the work now!

  28. Mark
    December 17, 2024

    Another angle that is important is to require civil servants in policy making careers to spend time on secondments that give them a flavour of the consequences of policy on the public and industry.

    Given how the whole business of quangocracy has grown it is now very difficult for ministers and Parliament to apply proper scrutiny (especially since the capabilities of many parliamentarians aren’t really up to the task anyway). The capabilities of the press have also been hollowed out, with computerised cut ‘n paste journalism replacing specialists with a deep knowledge of the areas they reported and commented on. We need other mechanisms of scrutiny conducted by knowledgeable people and used to inform the formal chain of command. The public enquiry is rarely the right route: as Sir Humphrey observed “You should never commission an enquiry without knowing the outcome”.

  29. Iago
    December 17, 2024

    Since we are presently being invaded as the government and its predecessors have arranged, and probably agreed with the EU, isn’t this all rather academic? In a few years the British will be a minority in their own country, i.e. they won’t have one.

  30. Peter Gardner
    December 17, 2024

    I thought the official Tory line now is ‘beware of experts’ because they tell us what to do on matters like pandemics and we will not be told because we the public, or the anti-lockdown brigade at least, know better.

  31. agricola
    December 17, 2024

    Praise where it is due. The DVLA havs just changed my EU Spanish driving licence to a UK driving licence in less than two weeks, and at no cost. Well done the DVLA and a Merry Christmas to them all in Swansea.

  32. Derek
    December 17, 2024

    It seems the EU has something right in its MO. Longevity brings experience. No wonder they could run rings around our lot.

  33. mancunius
    December 17, 2024

    Alas, this is the same DVLA that took no interest whatsoever when notified of a driving license illegally registered to my property by a driver who lived hundreds of miles distant. Literally quoting the cs who discussed the matter: ‘I’m sure they have a good reason for that.’

  34. David Paterson
    December 18, 2024

    Managers must be made responsible for decisions – committees are usually far too reluctant to make changes. Failure to make decisions should inhibit promotion. To be responsible for failure provided the manager learns from the subsequwntly agreed mistakes should result in fewer mistakes when the manager is promoted.

  35. a-tracy
    December 18, 2024

    Pay grades and levels within grades are pretty interesting. We have a Labour government that wants to set pay levels in every business, not only the civil service, with the same minimum pay level based on London needs. They want 18-year-olds straight out of school/college to be immediately paid the same as 21-year-olds, irrespective of how much training they need or their productivity or level of responsibility, within their first year; some jobs you can do this because they only require 1-2 days showing the ropes so it’s considered discrimination to reward someone for their length of service and not their output.

    Yet civil servants expect to be rewarded for their length of service and not paid the same as a new entrant into each new department they switch to. The 18-year-old starter rate will increase by 16.3% from April, whereas the 21-year starter pay has increased by 6.7%. The TUC say young workers miss out on ÂŁ2400 pa due to an unfair minimum wage that penalises young workers. The 21-year-old’s extra life learning, extra time in work or training is to count for nothing. So, couldn’t you argue someone switching to a new part of the civil service shouldn’t transfer on their old grade as they are no longer experienced in their new department as a brand new starter?

  36. Tim
    December 19, 2024

    Some time ago I worked for a specialist contractor for the MoD which made expensive and vital equipment.
    Every two years a new forces project manager would be rotated in to supervise the equipment production, meaning he had to be trained up and to make his mark by seeking specification changes taking up valuable time and adding to the already high cost of the product. Then he would be rotated out of that position!
    To cap it all, the production was on a cost-plus basis. I expect the MoD project manager was also rotated, ensuring that development and production costs were much higher than thy needed to be had those personnel stayed in post for longer and thereby gained better experience for the good of the nation’s defence.

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