Rt Hon Sir John Redwood MP (Wokingham) (Con): As I understand it, the hon. Gentleman wants Scotland to pull out of the UK but join the European Union. How easy does he think that would be, given the EUās stubborn attitude towards the Catalan claims and its support of Spain resisting even a referendum?
Tommy Shepherd MP, SNP Spokesman: The difference, of course, between the EU and the United Kingdom is that Scotland can leave one but not the other. I can imagine how the right hon. Gentleman might have felt if he and his Brexit colleagues, who wished for Britain to leave the EU, had been told, āWell, you simply canāt do that. You have no right to do that,ā because that is the situation that is being presented to Scotland with regard to the UK.
In my view, which I think is accepted, Scottish independence requires two things. First, it requires theĀ majorityĀ consent of the people who live in Scotland, and they need to express a wish for that to happen. Secondly, it concerns a negotiated settlement with this place and it will eventually require an Act of this Parliament. Those two things were fused together in the 2012 Edinburgh agreement, but because of theĀ UK Governmentās reticence, we will have to decouple them and take them separately.
Our ambition now is to find some means to allow people in Scotland to express their view. It does not sit well for the UK Government to take a stance of actively trying to frustrate and deny that happening. This motion, if they were to vote for it today, fixes the problem, because it gives the Scottish Parliament the power to organise the first of those thingsāto determine the view of the people. We are asking for the Scottish Parliament to have the power not to legislate on the Union or on becoming an independent country, but merely to consult the people and to articulate on behalf of those who elected the Holyrood chamber. That is the opportunity that is offered by the motionās proposed Bill, and I hope that hon. Members will take it.
The more that we tell people that they cannot have something, the more they want it. We have seen that in recent opinion polls with the surge in support for independence. Most significantly, in last weekās opinion poll, we saw a clear majority of people saying that there should be another referendum on this question before the end of the Scottish Parliamentās term in 2026āthat is the first time that there has been a clear majority on the timing of the referendum.
All that is happening as a result of the UKās obstinance, insistence and denial of the democratic mandate in Scotland is that the case for independence is being fuelled. If it comes to a situation where there is a conflict between the British constitution and the claim of right of the Scottish people, it is our responsibility, which we will not shirk, to make sure that the latter triumphs over the former.
December 15, 2022
Scotland should be given another independence referendum but with strict rules. The Scots should pay for it from their existing budgets, it should be a final vote and enshrined in law that there may not be a 3rd vote for a fixed period of time, perhaps 50 years and the result should be binding on all parties.
December 15, 2022
They just decided to move the Ā£20m allocated for a Ref to assisting with the present eat or heat hardship.
December 15, 2022
And the terms of leaving I.e. repayment of debt and subsidies, not using the pound, access to oik must be part of the referendum. Once leaving is voted for there is no more negotiation. It is settled. Like the number of sexes.
December 16, 2022
No Parliament May Bind Its Successor.
What a silly comment.
December 16, 2022
Also all in or all out. If they stay close down the Scottish parliament and rule from London.
December 15, 2022
How about giving the English, Welsh and Northern Irish a vote on whether they want the Scots to remain in the UK?
December 15, 2022
I anticipate the biggest turnout outside Moscow for a candidate you might have heard of.
December 15, 2022
The parallel drawn by the SNP spokesman between leaving the EU and leaving the U.K. is completely bogus. Leaving the EU important though it was would be nothing to the devastating disruption that exiting the U.K. would be. If you think the first was bad then logically you should oppose the second. And further the U.K. was a net donor to the EU but Scotland is a very substantial recipient from the U.K. taxpayer. As they say: āif you like austerity, you will love independence.ā
December 15, 2022
I for one would gladly like to see the back of Scotland I just canāt see why Westminster wants to keep Scotland in the U.K. also letās have a referendum on England being out of the U.K. with our own Parliament for the English long over due
December 15, 2022
Then you sacrifice the British Constitution and give these shysters the chance to create one – in which they will enshrine our subservience to international authorities including the EU. No recovery possible!
December 15, 2022
I CAN UNDER WHY SCOTLAND WANT INDEPENDENCE THE WAY PARLIAMENT IS PERFORMING NOT RESPECTING DEMOCRACY AND THE VOICE OF THE PEOPLE,
PARLIAMENT HAVE FAILED ON THE CHANCE TO MAKE UK INDEPENDENT WITH BREXIT, AND FAILED THE VOTERS
GOVERNMENT ARE CONSTANTLY KEEPING THE UK IN A STATE OF TURMOIL, GOVERNMENT ALWAYS FIND MONEY FOR OTHER COUNTRIES WHEN WE ARE TOLD WE HAVE TO TIGHTEN OUR BELTS THANK YOU
December 15, 2022
a capital idea !
December 15, 2022
Scotland is not being offered āindependenceā – they are being offered permanent subservience to the unelected, unsackable oligarchs of the EU.
December 16, 2022
When were they offered joining by the EU? The opposite is true.
December 15, 2022
What happened to EVEL!! Your party/Govt failed the English people again. Where is the English parliament!! Why do SNP get to vote on English matters- treacherous Gove needs sacking.
How many times does Gove have to backstab ministers ie Johnson, Truss etc in his own cabinet or the British public before he is sacked and lose the whip?
Scotland gets ever increasing powers and handouts at the grace of English taxpayers. Why should we tolerate this anymore? Free subscriptions, free university etc etc.
December 15, 2022
A rather misleading statement from the SNP, and a total failure to answer the question, but that’s some politicians for you…
The only reason they want to join the EU is down to money – they look at small EU countries who are doing very nicely on handouts and they want some of that. They make no effort to make Scotland strong, the SNP is simply another group of benefit seekers.
It was the people of Scotland who said no to leaving the UK, and quite rightly HMG is not keen to subsidise another referendum so soon after the first.
The SNP are too big for their boots, and they have had their day!
December 15, 2022
We should just let them go!
The rest of us will be much better off and, even better, free from their constant harping.
December 15, 2022
Let them go. Then we won’t have to pay them any more Barnet formula.
December 15, 2022
Beecee & Kayla Tomlinson :
Whilst it may seem to the English to be a good idea for Scotland to become independent for financial reasons they need to consider just how expensive it would become to have a failed state, possibly controlled by Russia or China, on its northern border. And if Scotland did not benefit from the Barnet Formula then even fewer people would be living in Scotland and England would be even more over populated.
December 15, 2022
@ Original Richard – and what makes you think there is not a failed state on our northern border now? The SNP has made Scotland a one party state and if the smear attempt on a well-known politician and previous office holder there is not sufficient signal as to how things stand then I do not know what could be.
The great distinction that arises upon Scotland’s exit from the Union is that we need not pretend any longer nor play nice (or pathetically indulgent). There would of course have to be a wall, that Scotland would pay for (as D. Trump might say), so Chinese or Russian, it would not matter (and we could give advice to either, being well-versed in naughty Scottish antics).
December 15, 2022
Better England was overpopulated by Scots than by the rabble from over the water! However those in Scotland are unlikely to want to move. Scotland is glorious! Majestic! And itās OURS!
December 16, 2022
except those millions that have spread far and wide over history, they don’t hast ye back, do they!
December 15, 2022
Do you really think so? you would get a big surprise, sit and think in politicians mindset Lady
December 15, 2022
A fairly lame ill thought out response. Devaluation in the UK failed because it failed in creating real devolved power were it is needed, at the front end, with those that know best how to solve their own local issues and in reality those best placed to solve their own issues.
In the case of Scotland a smaller but better represented and better funded population than the peoples of Yorkshire things still miss the target, the politicians still moan still want more. That is all deflection, the UK Government primarily deals with their International liaisons, they the Scottish Government deal with everything internally and then fail.
Even in Scotland the needs in Glasgow are completely different to Edinburgh, then you get the Highlands, Islands and Borders, all different. Local Government as that is what Scotland is should as within England and Wales be passed down to at least the County Council level, the payments from the Barnett Formula like wise. From that position any pooling or joint endevours should filter up if need be.
We have had in the UK to much of Central Government still hung over from their EU Control days wanting to be a Local Council and orchestrate local needs on a one size fits all basis.
December 15, 2022
@Ian B – In simple terms it is the curse of Whitehall, they want to be seen as doing everything unless and until it goes wrong and then it someone elses fault.
December 15, 2022
+1
December 15, 2022
I have never understand if Scotland wants to be free of England and do it’s own thing, and be totally independent, why join the EU. Perhaps they think will get more money than from the English tax payer.
There was a time when they claimed the oil and gas would keep them going. But the SNP are Net-Zero fanatics, so a bit of a problem there.
Maybe a referendum on a test separation for a year with no tax payer money flowing North of Boarder might be good.
Will this mean I have to get two passports? I can even get one from the Republic of Ireland . That would make three š The real issue behind breaking up Briton. Ireland is now a very good example of the mess you get into.
Anyway , we are still in the EU. BREXIT did not work so why are the SNP bothering?
December 15, 2022
I comment knowing full well how the part of our much loved Scottish family feel about it all, some are half English. Before we go ahead with another spiteful referendum, because that is what it became and still is, the essential points of split need to be aired. There are so many issues ignored or trivialised which should be the subject of a briefing paper provided to all residents of the UK. How would a border be envisaged, what currency would be used by Scotland, how would financial support from the remaining Union be stopped, how and when would Civil Service jobs be brought back to England, Wales, N.Ireland, how and when would military attendance, bases, purchasing and actual defence be removed, how might NHS England react to requests that happen regularly for operations, turning to trade what would need to be setup to separate activities both sides of a border? How would passports be dealt with, and the still existing mass of EU rules kept or removed in a hurry? We know of people who moved and live in Scotland for various reasons who will as a result reconsider staying there.
December 15, 2022
Tommy Shepherdās claim is similar to that which residents of Bath, Bradford, Bristol or Birmingham could make. Any cluster of people can want independence from government.
The notion of Scotland leaving the UK to gain āindependenceā within the EU raises questions of sanity.
Are such enthusiasts of sound mind and eligible to vote on anything other than TV singing contests?
December 15, 2022
Let us take London. No longer an English City with a population that if asked, probably would cedeed from the UK.
December 15, 2022
Give them a referendum and be rid of them. They squander English taxes and thank us with thinly disguised anti-English racism.
Better still give England a referendum for our own independence.
December 15, 2022
+1
December 15, 2022
Why bother with a referendum (where they showed before they had not the wit nor courage to vote to clear off), rather just summon the chief gaberlunzie and say “on yer bike pal”.
December 15, 2022
There is one United Kingdom – and that’s the way it should remain . The Scots rely heavily on overall economic support and they would be foolish to prejudice this in any way . The devolved Governments in Wales , Scotland and Northern Ireland were a mistake in the first place .
December 15, 2022
You beat me to it! It’s just a shame that there is not one politician, even among those MPs who are from the Conservative and UNIONIST Party, who are willing to say that the UK is ONE COUNTRY. Scotland (and England/Wales/NI too for that matter) is NOT A COUNTRY. It is a REGION. It can no longer split from the UK than can Sussex or Devon. Everyone living in the UK is BRITISH, and the UK is their one and only country. And there is a word for those who wish to destroy their country: TRAITORS. The SNP and all their supporters are traitors and should be called out for it. If they don’t like living in the UK then they should move to another country, because they are not welcome here. And, of course, the same applies to those in Northern Itreland who want to leave the UK. And no, there should not be ANY more stupid referendums on this issue, either in Scvotland or Northern Ireland. The UK is ONE indissoluble country.
December 15, 2022
There’s democratic rights and then there’s endless democratic rights.
They had a referendum in 2014. Only 8 years ago It cost a lot of money.
They (Salmond) said that was it “for a generation”. I disagreed – it should be far longer than that. The life of nation states is measured in centuries, so having a referendum on changing it every 25-30 years makes no sense, it destroys stability.
The other issue is that by continually holding referendums they are playing the dartboard game – throw enough darts at a dartboard and eventually you’ll hit what you’re aiming for. It’s not right that they only have to win one referendum and that’s it for all time. They already had two and refused to accept the result in every case.
If tehre is to be another one then some certainty needs to built in, Quebex-style:
1. It’s understood to be the end of it for all time. All parties must accept that going in for it to happen at all – no weaselwords, so that there’s no backsliding later.
2. The alternative must be direct rule from Westminster – no more devolution. Full independence or full integration.
3. The terms of independence must be agreed prior to the refererndum so that people know what they are voting for. What currency will be used? How much of the UK debt will Scotland bear? What happens to the UK defence bases in Scotland? All that and more must be thrashed out in advance and laid before the people as a package deal.
December 15, 2022
SNP : āFirst, it requires the majority consent of the people who live in Scotland, and they need to express a wish for that to happen.ā
No, it requires the majority consent of Scottish people.
Firstly all Scottish people should be allowed a vote, including all the ex-pats living elsewhere in the UK and elsewhere in the world. Just as UK ex-pats were allowed a vote in the UKās EU referendum ā at least those who had lived outside of the UK for fewer than 15 years.
Secondly the vote should not be given to all and sundry ālivingā in Scotland, such as EU and Commonwealth nationals, Chinese āstudentsā, legal and illegal asylum seekers, recent immigrants from all over the world who do not have UK nationality etc. and anyone else the SNP can bring temporarily into the country to boost their vote.
December 15, 2022
Personally, I think if Scotland did achieve independence the financial blackmail would still continue. They would need a very generous benefactor. We would end up giving them more and more money when they threatened to invite a hostile nation (or even the EU) to be benefactor. Our security is improved by being an island and inviting a hostile nation onto our island would be the end of any border control (assuming we have any in the first place).
December 15, 2022
@ Shirley M “…assuming we have any in the first place”. ! collapse of stout party I think.
December 15, 2022
My new idea to solve the difficulties over the Northern Ireland Protocol is to put South West England back into the EU Single Market for goods, to keep Northern Ireland company and reassure the unionists that their region of the UK is not being abandoned like an unwanted child. I briefly considered whether Scotland could be assigned that role of companion EU condominium but concluded that might not provide a long term solution because sooner or later the English will have had enough of this perpetual whining from the SNP and will arrange that they can have as many repeat referendums as they want as often as they like until they finally win one.
December 15, 2022
From OrderOrder.com
New research from the TaxPayersā Alliance has revealed there are now 426,000 more people working on the public payroll than in September 2018. For all the talk about reining in Whitehall and cutting back on wasteful spending, the public sector headcount has increased to an incredible 5.8 million, with the Civil Service alone growing by 77,000 over the last four years. The TPA points out thatās nearly the size of the entire British Armyā¦
Thats what higher taxes are about…. quality of service and delivery stays in decline
December 15, 2022
Good afternoon.
Let them have yet another referendum but . . . !
Before they do there is a small matter of the national debt to consider and their percentage of it. Plus. I think it is important to state that there will be no referendum until Scotland can show that it can stand on its own two feet. ie No more money from central government. They will also need to demonstrate that the EU will accept them.
And finally. Since the Orkney Isles were never part of Scotland they should not be included in any referendum and should remain part of the UK.
Accept all that and they can all bu**er off !
December 15, 2022
Due to our folly, many of our treasured institutions are being trashed, even to the mutual destruction of the United Kingdom. There are supranational powers aiding and abetting these trends.
Why play into their hands?
Surely, with mutual good will, we are better and stronger together.
December 15, 2022
Goodwill? really? – what from the Scottish Parliament?
Dream on…
December 15, 2022
There is no āScottish Parliamentā. A Parliament is sovereign – thus there can be only one. To call the assembly that purports to govern Scotland a Parliament is to do violence to our language.
December 16, 2022
forgive me, pedant.
December 15, 2022
If there is to be another referendum then the English should have a vote, informing the English how much it will save their pockets and how many jobs will come back to England.
December 15, 2022
“The more that we tell people that they cannot have something, the more they want it.”
And then, once they’ve got it, they realize it’s an illusion, and understand the excellent reasons why they couldn’t have it. Divorce lawyers make a fortune out of such irrational folk.
December 15, 2022
If you are an English taxpayer, and particularly also a Conservative, ( and I happen to be both ), you have every reason for wanting Scotland out of the UK.
For a start, we are subsidising Scotland to the tune of Ā£23.8bn a year and getting little but abuse in return.
Then there is the electoral arithmetic: Without the 50-55 Scottish seats won by Blair, Labour has little chance of forming a majority in Westminster. I anticipate that Sunak will recover most of the support the party has lost over the next two years to an extent that Labour will have to form a coalition to get even a small majority.
To achieve this, Starmer will have to strike a deal with both the Lib Dims and the SNP, a toxic combination for most English voters, as Miliband found out to his cost.
It is clear that another referendum over Scottish Independence will have to held sooner rather than later.
Given that that is the case, we might as well get on with it but the case for the Union must include getting rid of the Barnett Formula and Holyrood moving towards raising all the money it spends within Scotland.
December 15, 2022
I wonder why Sir John did not point out how much Scotland benefits from the Barnett Formula.
Could it be that saying that might actually increase support for this opposition day motion?
Something that a Scotsman living in England once pointed out – him and others like him, should have been included in the referendum they had. Ditto, any further referendums.
No, I do not want any further breaking up of the U.K.. Why should we allow disparagement of our centuries old constitutional arrangements? Get Northern Ireland (and Wales) back into the U.K. – fully. And Scotland too, for that matter. Undo all Blair’s damn devolution say I. Also undo the grabbing of Northern Ireland by the E.U..
Mind you, I personally would like to see a majority in the Westminster parliament for a truly conservative government and I do not think the present Conservative Party is in any way conservative of British values and customs.
December 15, 2022
Sir John:
You will notice that the Scottish nationalist socialists use the weasel term “the people who live in Scotland”, not the more straightforward “Scottish people”. Why?
Obviously, they wish to exclude Scottish born people who happen to live in another part of the UK, or outside the UK, from the vote. Why should a person born in Scotland who lives elsewhere be denied a vote on the future of their homeland? Is it because a Scot who lives in another part of the UK might not wish to become a foreigner at the stroke of a pen?
Conversely, the SNP’s weasel formulation means that anyone from any part of the world who happens to live in Scotland would get a vote in the referendum, and how attached would such a person be to the union?
If another referendum ever happened, the UK government should stipulate that the voting age should be 18, and that all people born in Scotland should have a vote on the future of their country.
December 15, 2022
*This*
December 15, 2022
Please remember that approximately only one third of Scotland based voters support the SNP.
The rest of us are loyal to our British Heritage and want it to stay that way.
To say you want rid of Scotland because you are fed up with the SNP is like saying you want to evict every resident of a block of flats because you have one problem family.
Those of us who said āNoā to separation need your support, not anger and rejection.
December 15, 2022
then you need to rise up, wise up, and voice exactly that because all we ever hear is moaning Blackford, snide Sturgeon and our PMs handing over Ā£billions over any fantasy dreamed up by the aforementioned.
December 16, 2022
They won’t rise up and get rid of the decidedly dodgy Sturgeon government while English politicians keep pouring money into Holyrood : Ā£23.7bn a year subsidy at the last count.
Those that vote for the SNP are laughing at the stupid English.
End the Barnett formula and give Sturgeon full fiscal autonomy so that she raises all the money she spends within Scotland. After all, with independence, that’s what she wants !
December 15, 2022
Well said Syd – that’s what I was trying to say above – let’s not play into their treacherous hands. We look to the other 2/3 to work on the good will. Too much fatalism will do nobody any food.
December 15, 2022
@ Syd – you make a very sound and decent point. Alas though, some of us do not care, for we see the taxi of selfish opportunity within hailing distance with its “for hire ” light on and so give every encouragement to the SNP charlatans to see Scotland ejected from the Union.
December 16, 2022
Yes indeed. The majority of Scots voted to maintain the union. The SNP are a gang of malcontents who will never be satisfied. Devolution was Tony Blair’s biggest mistake of many.
December 15, 2022
Dear Mr. Redwood,
Scottish Independence would see Scotland joining the EU and in turn would lead to England (or the Rest of the UK) having a land border and all of its associated problems with the European Union. I have no wish to have a land border with the EU otherwise they can go.
December 15, 2022
The EU won’t touch them.
December 15, 2022
They will, to spite the U.K.
December 16, 2022
they don’t need another 3m whingers, trying ‘shut me up with more money’ tactics.
December 15, 2022
The issues over Scotland roll on and on. They are given endless time and effort.
But England is ignored by everyone. England has no parliament – and Sir John is opposed to that. He thinks England can be taken for granted. How many other nations does he think should not have no democratic identity. What exists now is a deceit.
No-one speaks for England, why is that? If Scotland, Wales and NI are considered important enough to have bodies that speak for them and represent them, why is England excluded? All the while the political and cultural establishment work hard to destroy England as a unity. They press on with what they call devolution but it is part of their plan to destroy England by breaking it into regions that we don’t want or need. We have a county system which is being destroyed.
Hypocrites and deceivers rule us.
December 15, 2022
On the contrary, both inside and outside Parliament, Sir John has persistently called for an English parliament – in fact he is so well known for doing so, frequently and stridently, that your remark seems bizarre. (Or perhaps you live overseas?)
See (just one example) a BBC report on 15 September 2014: ‘Tory MP Redwood leads calls for English Parliament: John Redwood said English MPs should meet to decide English-only issues, while the existing UK Parliament of all MPs would focus on “Union” matters. Mr Redwood said England should not be “fobbed off” with anything less. “As the Scottish Parliament is going to have the power to fix income tax in Scotland, we need an English Parliament to fix the level of income tax in England,” he told BBC Radio 4’s Today.
December 16, 2022
It could even be worse than that : If Starmer gets the most seats but no majority at the next GE, which seems the second most likely outcome after a small Conservative majority, he will have to rely on SNP votes to get his budget through parliament. As the vast majority of the budget only applies to England and Wales and not Scotland, that is unacceptable and profoundly undemocratic.
We cannot rely on the SNP to continue their convention of abstaining on English-only measures so we need English MPs at Westminster to sit as the English Parliament to pass legislation that applies only to England.
The next Conservative poster must be being readied as we speak. It will be a new version of this :
https://dailyelection.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/ed-miliband-in-nicola-sturgeon-pocket-poster.jpg