John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con):
I strongly welcome the proposal to deport more foreign criminals, and I also support the idea of finding something better than prison for non-violent offenders. Will that include, wherever possible, their need to have a job legally and to pay compensation to those against whom they have committed fraud, theft and other financial crimes?
Alex Chalk, Secretary of State for Justice:
My right hon. Friend makes two excellent points. It is worth reflecting on the fact that since 2019, we have deported around 15,000 foreign national offenders. A huge amount of work has taken place, and that will continue, albeit at an even greater pace.
The second point he makes is fundamental. Judges already have the power to impose a compensation order in the event that someone is convicted of a crime, but their ability to do so is determined by the funds that are available to that individual. How much better it is if the individual can go out and do an honest dayās work to generate more income, so that they can, in a small way, put right the crime they have committed and the damage they have done.
October 18, 2023
Good morning.
Since my post from yesterday was deleted, I have to be careful here.
What I would like to know is, how many of that 15,000 foreign criminals arrived here by boat ?
I would also like to take the liberty of asking a question in relation to yesterdays subject, which this touches upon, so not entirely off-topic.
If I were to rob the Bank of England or the Treasury of say Ā£400 million pounds, what do you think would happen to me ?
Would I :
a) Go straight to jail ?
b) Let off with just a rap across the knuckles.
Alternatively. If I failed to pay the BBC License Tax, even if I did not watch its output, what do you think would happen to me ? Same answers to the above.
And it is here is where our so called justice system falls down and one of the reasons are prisons are so full.
October 18, 2023
“. . . are . . . ” = ” . . .our . . .”
October 18, 2023
The point about compensation being the first consideration of a court has been around for donkey years, come on.
If everyone who committed a low level offence did not get punished minor crime would be rampantā¦ oh, wait a minute, that is shop lifting has gone through the roof here and the Left wing states in US!! JR, do not treat us as idiots.
Go to Magistrates or Crown Court and witness how hard it is to be jailed, even with a long list of previous convictions. Then go to a traffic court and see how much each person gets fined. Many people committing GBH get far less of a punishment than driving offences. Your minister is out of touch and does not have a clue.
Your party and govt made the police woke and focus on non offences through HMIC ratings. Get back to focus on crime and make drug offence punishments rigid as a punishment not as some sort of excuse as if it were not their fault. Including drug possession. Stop fixating on obesity, smoking and drinking and get back to reality. Drugs are a source crime for many other offences to fund the habit. No there was not a war on drugs, it has been down played since 1997.
Were your party going to stop criminalisation of TV Tax to the extreme left wing BBC!
October 18, 2023
++++
Questions I ask myself repeatedly.
With reference to the Bof E and many others with their hands in our pockets, at least Dick Turpin wore a mask, if you get my meaning.
October 18, 2023
@Mark B; “What I would like to know is, how many of that 15,000 foreign criminals arrived here by boat ?”
Most I suspect! Given we are an island nation, the only other realistic option being to arrive by an aircraft of some sort, I suppose some might swim… You can be “careful” with language all you like, but your overtones still shine through.
October 18, 2023
Mark, perhaps you should have put dinghy to keep Jerry happy.
October 18, 2023
There is no problem with just walking through at any of our airports, especially if you are Romanian or Polish etc – just join a flight you know will contain prospective workers.
October 18, 2023
The trouble is , whilst engaging in political correctness the obvious double think makes us appear deceitful and slippery.
October 19, 2023
@Margaret; Quite the opposite, ungraded and disguised language makes us appear deceitful and slippery. Political correctness, and doublespeak, just makes people look daft!
October 19, 2023
That’s what I said.
October 19, 2023
However why do you think that I said the opposite.This is an interesting perception .
October 19, 2023
Language and perception of words which stand alone and those incorporated in a sentence and within a specific context is an interest of mine.
It’s unusual that you feel that’ deceitful ‘ and ‘slippery’ have the shared antonym of ‘ daft ‘ which in present day context means silly but in past times meant empty.
October 18, 2023
Exactly Mark B. How many members of ISIS, Hamas or the Taliban are entering our country every day under the watch of this pathetic useless Government? If any Brits die as a result of a terrorist attack, Sunak and Braverman will have blood on their hands. They will be 100% responsible. The first role of any Government is to keep their citizens safe and they have failed us miserably.
October 18, 2023
āSince 2019, 15,000 foreign criminals deported ā¦ā
What an indictment! They MUST add at lease another 3 noughts to that before we even think of whether to believe them.
October 18, 2023
….and they must never be allowed to return (I understand they come for a season …and keep returning), if any foreigner has been sent to jail, they should be deported that same release date and issued a life-time ban from re-entering the UK
I still can’t believe that we don’t hold people in secure accommodation before deportation (them actually bail them, with a date to appear !!! madness)
October 18, 2023
Javid closed them as HS and announced at Tory conference he was proud to do so!! Where did the idiots think they would go if they thought their application might fail? Where were they going to house them? What impact on crime, black market labour, education, health- A&E, housing? Anyone checking barbers or car washes?
In 2002 the service provider for Blaireās govt made it clear that the south east public services could not cope with the volume so housing was going to be bought to provide accommodation for Asylum seekers types around the country. The situation has grown ever since while Uni party lying to the public numbers of immigration would be substantially cut. Oh, they also blamed the EU! Now what is the excuse?
October 18, 2023
why spend money on prison, hold them until the next day’s flight out.
October 18, 2023
@Lynn Atkinson; Another three noughts added takes that to 15 million, the UK adult population is only circa 45 million, so unless you are suggesting there are 15m illegal immigrants and other foreign criminals here in the UK your comment harks back to ideas first made the late 1960s. š”
October 18, 2023
The population is thought to be around 67m, but within 3m, either way!
October 18, 2023
“Their need to have a job legally and to pay compensation to those against whom they have committed fraud, theft and other financial crimes?”
Well perhaps but most jobs that ex-prisoners (and many others) are likely to be able to obtain in the over taxes and under housed UK (after tax, NI, rent, commuting costs, food, heat, light, council tax) are likely to leave almost no money left for any such compensation. Indeed they are likely to need tax payer support with their rent and council tax. Or to need subsidised social housing.
October 18, 2023
Many employers in the private sector would be unwilling to employ ex-prisoners. Timpsons, the High Street shoe repair chain, is an honourable exception. So the state would have to provide most often jobs.
It is also important to try to prevent first time offenders becoming recidivists, though I am not sure how to achieve this.
One poster on here always urges fundamental, sweeping changes in culture, a return to religion, an appreciation of earlier values etc. This may be laudable, but it is beyond the scope of politicians.
Banging up career criminals for lengthy sentences is possible. Funding it is the real issue. America may be the place to look for the answer.
October 18, 2023
Last night, Baroness Foster said it costs about Ā£47,000 on average each year per prisoner.
October 18, 2023
@Peter; Not sure the USA can teach us anything, their prisons are bursting at the seams worse than ours, they are often highly violent places rife with gang culture, with ever more convicts on long sentences. The USA likely look at our prisons with envy! Both the UK and the USA probably need to look to certain EU countries for how to have a decent social structure that prevents people becoming or becoming repeat criminals, affordable housing, decent full time jobs, a living wage all as the norm; and less consumerism (nothing is a ‘must have’), are key.
I wonder how many Local Authorities not only once provided a suitable council house or flat (as the govts of the day would have required) but also employed ex prisoners, paying the going wage for often low skilled work; such as cutting grass, working on the dust carts, sweeping/weeding the roads etc. Circular money perhaps but money that likely kept many from (returning to) crime before ‘going straight’ had a chance, using the LA job as a springboard to a better job once their record was spent?
The scullery sink sold for scrap, now the taxpayer spends a small fortune at the Launderette…
October 19, 2023
Local Authorities don’t employ them, contractors are frequently used.
October 19, 2023
@MT; Not back before 1979, I was speaking in past tense.
October 18, 2023
Relying on finding (a) God is a poor substitute for harsh penalties to those that deserve it.
October 18, 2023
I image Timpsons are rather selective as to which few ex-prisoners they choose to employ too.
October 18, 2023
No they have a lot of sole
October 19, 2023
for people on their uppers.
October 18, 2023
A bigger challenge than looking after ex-cons to get honest work, is the depressing problem of creating work for the honest unemployed! this falls inevitably at the door of this Government.
8.30
October 18, 2023
Then, they could work on the weekend for free to pay back their community punishment.
October 18, 2023
Well perhaps, but the tax and benefit system often means that as much as 90% of an extra days work is taken of them in loss of benefits, tax, NI plus then they have more commuting costs too and less time to shop efficiently etc. So many people not just ex prisoners simply choose not to do overtime, rather understandably, given the absurd system that pertains.
October 19, 2023
They’d have no choice if the State gross took the earnings from the extra work so that it wouldn’t affect their top-up benefits. Something has got to change to act as a proper deterrent.
October 18, 2023
In respect of trying to deport more foreign criminals two points spring to mind.
One being the left wing liberal estate will fight to the death to ensure fewer are returned and most of our institutions are now governed by such people. There’s little guts or will within the establishment to call time on these people.
Secondly why have so many foreign criminals been allowed here in the first place? We all know the answer to that.
I note some bod from MI5 has hit upon the idea that we may see terrorist strikes here in the wake of Israel/Gaza carry on. By heck, he’s quick isn’t he I wonder what his salary is for stating the bleeding obvious. Problem is we can see just how easy it is for anyone to gain entrance here, so nothing will be a surprise.
October 18, 2023
Yesterday, a left winger on Dewsbury reminded people that some people classed as ‘foreign prisoners’ came here when they were young children, and this has been the only country they have lived in. I think the public needs more facts about the criminals we are paying to incarcerate, and for what crime, it is all very cloaked.
October 18, 2023
Exactly, nothing will surprise us because we have seen, in London, in broad daylight, what will happen.
October 18, 2023
Inflation still 6.7% the same as last month with oil now likely to go up even further after the appalling events in and around Israel.
How are the other 4 pledges going Sunak? Will any be hit do you think?
Mogg also had a good piece on Nigel Lawsonās memorial with Norman Lamont. Lawson was right on tax cutting & simplifying, right on the insanity of Climate Alarmism and Net Zero. But he was wrong to try to shadow the DM and to try to force Thatcher into the ERM. This led to the foolish Major as Chancellor, the ERM disaster and then Major as a disastrous PM leading to the Blair/Brown disasters.
But no mention of this. Lawson on of the very few sound PPE Oxon. graduates but he originally went up to read maths I think. Even then he got the ERM totally wrong despite this being fairly obvious deluded group think I assume.
October 18, 2023
Sunakās governmentās mad Net Zero policy and the virtual prohibition of drilling, fracking and mining pushing up energy costs too. Often three times US prices so how exactly is the UK expected to compete in energy intensive industries Sunak?
October 18, 2023
Spending review 2021 promised 20000 new prison places, 5200 delivered and Chalk is trying to spin it positively.
A lot of the criminals who are going to be freed will not be first timers, they will have had non custodial community orders etc which obviously hasnāt worked. So this wonāt either.
Anyone believe HMG will properly resource, they are expensive, such rehab programmes. Speak to people in social services where genuine needs are not met.
And what about shopkeepers and the wider community exposed to these many time offenders.
Prison might not have rehabilitated them but it kept them off the streets.
As the police canāt ever be bothered to investigate burglaries etc, but will if you call someone a name, can this shoddy government lets its citizens down any more.
October 18, 2023
Nigl where did you get the figure from that only 5,200 places have been created so far.
“In its 2020 Spending Review, the Government said it would spend more than Ā£4 billion delivering 18,000 prison places across England and Wales by the mid-2020s. The total was increased to 20,000 in the 2021 Spending Review. Half of the new places were to be provided at six new jails.” source inside time.
I’m surprised they increased it in 2021 because covid was in 2021 and locked down the UK for the best part of one year. They said, Wellington and Glen Parva, which will provide 3,360 places by 2023.
Four prisons were awarded in a Ā£1.2 billion contract, let by the Ministry of Justice in July 2022 as a single FAC-1 alliance contract with NEC4 terms to Alliance 4 New Prisons, comprising ISG, Kier, Laing O’Rourke and Wates.
This is interesting: https://www.neccontract.com/news/uk-alliance-starts-on-first-of-four-nec4-procured-prisons#:~:text=It%20is%20due%20to%20open,Laing%20O'Rourke%20and%20Wates. Due for completion 2025 1500 prisoners, that work is taking place. They don’t just appear out of thin air.
October 18, 2023
Why were 15,000 foreign criminals imported in the first place? I very much doubt many of them were honest, upright citizens before they turned up here and they then suddenly turned to a life of crime.
Why is the Government continuing to import criminals on a daily basis across the channel?
October 18, 2023
To put 15,000 prisoner in context , with an average prison population of 800, that is over 18 prisons worth
October 18, 2023
Those are only the ones actually jailed. Very few criminals are caught much less jailed in the U.K. especially of the police, civil service and politicians are afraid of them. See the white sex slave industry that was allowed to flourish for decades. Itās a really sick nation that will not even protect its young.
October 18, 2023
As with everything else a glaringly obvious issue is missed i.e increase a population and you will need to increase everything else to keep pace.
Also turn a once settled nation into one of multi-culture and belief systems and not insist that the law of the land applies to everyone regardless, then confusion sets in and the system cannot cope. Add numerous laws to ensure unpalatable truths dare not be faced and it’s a recipe for disaster.
In regard to foreign criminals I note some smugly say the majority in prison are British Nationals. Well what does that mean when British citizenship has been handed out like sweets? Most of those being put up in hotels will, I’m quite sure be given British citizenship.
It certainly makes it easy for those of that blinkered, arrogant, ivory tower view to claim we don’t have a problem and it’s the fault of the lazy workshy Brits!!!
October 18, 2023
Yes āBritish nationalā means alien. The Political class saw fit to play God and set up a market in citizenship. I see the European nations rushing to āget their nationalsā out of Gaza and bring them home to safety. Many will have to put down their weapons to take advantage of the offer!
All second Citizenship should be repealed.
October 18, 2023
Michelle: You make some good points there with which I agree & have mused over before now. Recently came across an old Spectator report by Fraser Nelson dated 03/6/22 ‘How are 5m Brits without work ?’ The ‘giant evil’ of idleness is back. Very interesting with various stats and a good map at the end – the GB Welfare Map.
October 18, 2023
Why are you just proposing compensation for financial crime ? Why not have them pay compensation to victims of violent crime too ?
OT I see inflation in USA is 3.7% but here it is stuck at 6.7%. Maybe Mr Hunt, who claims personal credit every time inflation falls, can tell us why his policies to reduce inflation are plainly not working ? I expect it is global factors outside his control which are always responsible for inflation going up but are never responsible for it going down ?
October 18, 2023
Well he and Snake cannot do anything other than claim money printing inflation and stagnating taxation indexing since 2021 -2028 on all incomes, inheritance, whilst shrinking allowances on capital gains, dividends and savings taxes. Someone has to pay for their beloved illegals Hotel bills, and the 5.6 million on unlimited, no time restraints welfare. Oh and whilst your at it, give them some cost of living payments on top. We the 46% can afford it! NOT. Live within OUR means like everyone else has to. Cut the state in all its forms and get them back into the office. 45 minute wait today for National Insurance people to pick up the phone!!
October 18, 2023
The shame of being recognisable daily in public for the crime they have committed would prevent many potential criminals from doing wrong. A vivid offender uniform would achieve that and avoid the waste of prison accommodation.
Realising how they would feel every time they entered a shop, stood in a queue, or walked in a street would make them want to earn and maintain respect, free from such conspicuity.
According to progress, Learners could gain promotion, gradually restoring entitlement to trust and the privileges of normal law-abiding citizens.
Offenders could work in HM Rehabilitation Factories to earn remission.
October 18, 2023
They didn’t even want the Remploy factories for honest disabled people. Their God, money again you see, so no chance with rehabilitating prisoners.
October 19, 2023
The present government is committed in loyalty to its former bad decisions and is dying out as a result. A new sensible government would be free to choose whatever delivers effective solutions.
October 18, 2023
Are questions raised in the Commons pursued with any follow up actions ?; if not it makes a mockery of effective intervention and the role of an MP . Sir John has always shown an intense understanding of all of the business discussed and it would be a shame if there was no proper response to him . As things stand there is little talent evident in the ranks of the present Ministers or with the Departments they are supposed to control .
October 18, 2023
“[the Minister replied] since 2019, we have deported around 15,000 foreign national offenders.”
How many of those 15,000 had been convicted for a crime other than illegal entry into the UK, or assisting such people, many of whom are only awaiting deportation, and have only been convicted because the laws relating to Immigration and Asylum have changed?
Conflating criminal offender prison numbers and illegal immigration deportation numbers, if that is what was done, might play out well in the unthinking right-wing press but will be seen as smoke and mirrors by others.
October 18, 2023
By ‘others’, presumably you mean the self righteous
October 18, 2023
@graham1946; And the right wing press are not “self righteous” too?!
October 18, 2023
Illegal entry to Britain is a crime nonetheless (the intent is often to defraud our state by claiming false status) and there is the risk of absconding whilst on trial or convicted. They must, therefore, be kept in prison.
As with all the other effects of mass immigration more provision is needed to cope with it (including housing) but we are not allowed to discuss this because the BBC sets the agenda and the parameters of debate.
October 18, 2023
+1
October 18, 2023
@Paula; The Minister said “foreign national offenders”, not foreign national *criminals*, just appears to be a rather deliberate use of a word that perhaps inflates the numbers, given this was a Statement about Prison numbers, not Asylum removal centres, which are not prisons as I understand it, at least not in the usual sense of the word, being run by the Boarder Agency, not the Prison Service.
October 19, 2023
some get overcrowded prison, others a pleasant all-found hotel with fellow countrymen.
October 18, 2023
So, āJudges already have the power to impose a compensation orderā.
Why is justice limited to paying money?
Judges should be free to impose any remedy effective and relevant to the individual offender. Such as:
Reporting to a police station for inspection twice a day for a year.
Banning travel by car even for non-motoring offences.
Banning use of social media.
Curfew.
Having to carry a 10lb HMP weight wherever they go.
Compulsory work at a call centre.
Standing facing a corner for 2 hours each day.
Bequeathing 10% of the value of any house they own to Cancer Research.
Litter picking, graffiti removal,
Gardening.
Cleaning and painting prison premises.
āDonkey workā in assisting police in identifying criminals.
October 18, 2023
Apparently, allegedly ( please forgive any inaccuracy) France has started immediate deportation of radical immigrants.
Any chance of us doing a bit of ālockstepā ā¦govt. was keen enough on it at other times.
October 18, 2023
I see India is planning a manned moon landing…
So clearly they are not short of a few quid
So why oh why does the UK keep throwing money at them as supposed “aid”
October 18, 2023
Once again, slid off the question about “having a job legally”.
October 18, 2023
Off topic:
As seen here: https://www.freelanceinformer.com/news/companies-suspected-of-freelancer-pay-rate-fixing/
The Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) is investigating scripted drama producers for suspected cartel-like behaviour, such as sharing information to fix freelancer pay rates.
“The CMA is investigating suspected breaches of competition law by at least the following undertakings: the British Broadcasting Corporation, Hartswood Films Limited, Hat Trick Productions Limited, ITV PLC, Red Planet Pictures Limited, Sister Pictures Limited and Tiger Aspect Productions Limited.”
Interesting list? Both BBC and ITV.
Many people I know who are professional freelancers have told me that they believe there’s a cartel operation in their industry which is holding rates at a constant level, colluding to only offer inside IR35 contracts and also to only offer “hybrid” working (with an increasing demand for in-office work) to force people back into their expensive offices – not only London-based companies who have invested in iconic office buildings that are recognisable across the landscape..
October 18, 2023
In the Commons – Responding to Ms Mortimer, the Prime Minister said: “As my honourable friend knows I am unable to comment on cases which are currently before the court. “Can I join her in expressing my sympathies to families affected? “I would like to reassure her that this government is doing everything we can to tackle illegal migration and the harm it causes by removing those with no right to be here in the UK.
“We have excellent, longstanding relationships to return people to many countries.
“We are returning thousands more people than we have done in the past.
“We are doing everything possible to ensure it is this government who decides who come here and not criminal gangs.”
—This sort of sweep under the carpet wil cement the loss of the next GE.
It simply isn’t good enough, the whole country knows it, who does he think is satisfied with that pathetic response?
17.25
October 18, 2023
Apologies, another important off topic:
https://www.freelanceinformer.com/hmrc/has-hmrc-conveniently-ignored-double-taxation-of-ir35-for-years/
Seb Maley (Qdos): āHMRC does not account for taxes already paid by a contractor when calculating the tax liability owed by a business in the event of non-compliance, under the off-payroll working rules.ā
Basically, double-taxation occurs when an outside contract is deemed to be inside.
The consultation is finished and the aim was to bring froward a solution in April 2024. The clock is ticking, there’s very little time left here. Perhaps worth a question in an upcoming finance debate?
October 18, 2023
If I refuse to pay the BBC licence will they have the good grace to call me a militant and not a criminal ? I think my reasons for doing so would more fit the definition of ‘militant’ than Hamas’.
October 18, 2023
J.K. Rowling Says She Would āHappily Do Two Years in Jailā if a Future Labour Government Makes it a Hate Crime to āMisgenderā Someone
This is heroism. It’s time the Tory government did the same and expose fascist Labour
October 19, 2023
She is very brave, I wouldn’t risk it !
October 18, 2023
Might be a good Idea to have more of the guilty in prisons instead of those who avoid the penalty with good legal representation.
October 18, 2023
Has any consideration been given to conscription into the military in non-combat roles for non-violent criminals of military age?
October 19, 2023
I seem to remember it was once mooted, but the army did not want them as it is a professional force, not a rubbish dump for society’s trash who would not do well being forced. Put them in military style prisons? That may be something to think about.
October 19, 2023
like cleaning, repair and painting of former military barracks in a s*it state?
They could then be moved in to serve sentence.