Ā The British Museum bought the marbles from Lord Elgin and is the custodian of them. They will need to make decisions about their future.Ā The Prime Minister does not control the future of these statues.
Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā When considering their future the Museum has researched how the marbles were obtained. Evidence suggests that Lord Elgin got the permission of the Turkish authorities who controlled Athens at the time to erect scaffolding and carefully remove some of the statues. The Parthenon was in serious decay and remained at risk. Some fragments were resting beneath the building where they had fallen off.Ā It had suffered from Turkish and Venetian military activity. Ā It would not have been possible to have spent all the time and trouble on removal, transport to the docks and loading onto a shipĀ without the agreement of the authorities. Removing them helped ensure their preservation which was less assured given the negligence at the site. These were large heavy objects that needed careful handling and could not have been stolen or smuggled out.
Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Athens displays the marbles it owns Ā in a museum and does not wish to put them back on the building. Athens has copies of the marbles that are held in the British Museum and other overseas displays as part of its display of what the frieze would have looked like. Ā So to say it is like cutting up the Mona Lisa is not true. Half of the statues are permanently missing or destroyed from the local wars and lack of maintenance in the past. The other half including fragments are split between Athens, London, Paris, Copenhagen, Munich and Wurzburg . No-one thinks the full frieze exists, nor can it Ā be restored to the building. The British Museum has made clear over the years that these sculptures are an important part of its world collection, properly come by. Athens rightly displays all it can close to the Parthenon along with copiesĀ to give visitors there an experience of what the Parthenon looked like before the wars and the lack of care gravely damaged it.
Ā
November 29, 2023
If this British monarch now ensconced on the throne can slither over to Kenya on his knees and beg forgiveness from their government, all the while dragging this nation’s reputation through the dirt and slandering our history then I believe it’s morally appropriate to return such a valuable, cultural artefact to a nation whose given so much to western civilisation.
The EMs do not belong in this country, we all know this to be true. They aren’t a trinket of amusement for the delectation of half-witted Brits who can barely regale their own nation’s history never-mind appreciate the value of one of Greece’s most important symbols of artistic creations
Let’s face it, the British establishment spend most of their time trashing this nation’s history, industrial, cultural and artistic achievements. The police even allow trash to desecrate our most important monuments to the fallen in battle. A pathetic
nation ruled by woke fascists
This British nation of philistines do not deserve such a monument of artistic significance
November 29, 2023
I fully agree with your last paragraph.
I think it is in part a facet of the ‘levelling up’ on the global board. We must be brought down to the lowest common denominator in order to elevate elsewhere.
November 29, 2023
I absolutely do NOT agree with giving back the Elgin Marbles. The taxpayers fund the Museum and so we should be given a vote. I vote No.
November 29, 2023
According to the exempt charity’s latest accounts, the British Museum received Ā£13m in donations and legacies in the year ending 31 March 2022, compared to Ā£39m a year earlier. The British Museum’s overall income fell by 11% year-on-year from Ā£123.7m to Ā£109m, while its fundraising income fell by around 57% from Ā£40.4m to Ā£17.2m.26 Jul 2022
November 29, 2023
This half-wit enjoyed his visit to the British Museum – and enjoys visiting the ancient sites of Greece. You?
November 29, 2023
Surprised they were not stolen along with the host of other items under stewardship of Osborne!! Tax is another form of theft is it not?
We want N.Ireland back from the EU.
We want out fishing waters back from the EU.
We want to take back control of our laws and borders that Snake and co refuse a sovereign nation.
Snake lauding how easy it is to get visas.
Rycroft and dep evading all questions on immigration. Is he the one in charge of the not fit for purpose Home Office or the other useless one in charge of Foreign Office?
November 29, 2023
I wonder whether together we make a Wit? I too enjoyed both and was specially grateful to Elgin in view of the state of the Parthenon even to this day.
November 30, 2023
Rubble everywhere, if I remember my 1973 visit accurately – and I’m sure we would amount to more than one wit, Lynn. :}
November 29, 2023
Is your pleasure reduced at all if some of the stones are fairly exact replicas? After all people pay a fortune to see Abba Voyage! Do people even know if the Mona Lisa they glimpse (behind other people & protective glass) in Paris is the real painting or not? Or even if it was painted by the artist they claim, just his helper or largely painted by some ārestorerā?
November 29, 2023
This diatribe is as anti-British as anything the Labour party or its minions has ever said about this country. I think your anger is clouding your judgement.
November 29, 2023
Wellā¦before the āgreat returnā let us hope that they have not been re-stolen.
Apparently, it is alleged many artefacts have gone missing from museums and even from some parliamentary collection or other.
I used to think that they were great big white stone spheres.
But in fact they turned out to be wrecked statues and they were originally painted in very garish colours.
Since apparently all history can be rewritten and traditions purposely trashed why should we care about a few old carvings?
Maybe, if not already gone, they could be arranged around someoneās private, heated swimming pool?
November 29, 2023
Dom,
A little harsh but essentially, true.
Likewise; a TV personality of Greek Cypriot origin recently opined that the approval given by an Ottoman invader of Greece was of no more value than obtaining Hitler’s permission to remove art from The Louvre during the German occupation of France.
I believe we should offer an exchange. We will send the marbles to Greece and they can send the copies to us.
November 30, 2023
The Ottomans overran Athens in 1456;after c400 years of rule it was probably assumed they would be there for good.
November 29, 2023
Today , gas, nuclear and coal are producing 70% of demand, wind is 2.5%. We are an interconnector away from power cuts and this is the first really cold day. Better stock up on candles.
November 29, 2023
People being offered money not to use energy- what a shit show as the govt says. Still no cogent energy policy. Get fracking, bring back clean coal, oil and gas all reliable compared to intermittent unreliable wind machines that our forebears stopped using 200 years ago. Starmer spot on today Snake needs to say what the next disaster he will preside over.
November 29, 2023
LED torches (wind up or battery are rather brighter & more efficient) than candles. Or use your car battery and an inverter for TV, gas central heating pump, laptop, lightsā¦ then charge off petrol and diesel on next journey.
Anyone sensible and numerate can see that the net zero agenda is total lunacy and a complete fraud – if they do even basic research, but obviously Cameron, Sunak, May, Sharma, Boris, Ed Miliband, Starmer and 90% + of MPs either are not up to it or cannot be bothered. Or are in on the racket for some other reason.
Prof. William Happer videos a good starting point.
November 29, 2023
Its cold its freezing its glacial its winter ā¦.do you think its down to climate change
(wish I had a coal fireplace, or at least a gas fire …not under this government)
November 29, 2023
I wonder how many are freezing tonight as they only have a āHeat-Pumpā
November 29, 2023
Our new Foreign Secretary, the unelected Lord Cameron, has just signed a secret (Parliament will not see the details until Spring) āPolitical Dialogue and Cooperation agreementā with Cuba.
So what does our Government want to learn from Cuba?
November 29, 2023
The unelected Foreign Secretary, appointed by the unelected Prime Minister. Cuba! Really?
Add that to a shed load of taxpayers hard earned to Gaza……..
CMD has been really busy.
November 29, 2023
OR
Guarantee it means we give them money, probably for no gain to ourselves whatsoever.
Cameron is excellent at giving taxpayers money away to anyone and anybody abroad, I suggest he thinks it enhances his character abroad, whilst unaware he is trashing it at home
November 29, 2023
Cameron did not limit his giveaways to abroad as those who recall the scandal of the Kids Company charity will recognize.
November 30, 2023
Is “enhancing his character abroad” code for expanding his “private interests” abroad?
November 30, 2023
Donna
You may think that, but I could not possibly comment !
November 29, 2023
Cuba have agree to buy all our petrol cars
November 29, 2023
How to run a national health service….
November 30, 2023
Have a look at the recent UNGA vote on the Cuba sanctions -only the US and Israel voted for the blockade to continue;only Ukraine abstained.What does that tell you?
November 29, 2023
Dom, I agree.
December 4, 2023
Doing quite a lot of “trashing” yourself.
November 29, 2023
this is priority number 99 billion in the long list of priorities we have to worry about.
so far down the priority list that any effort thinking about it is a complete waste.
November 29, 2023
I’m with you on this one SJR.
A retired British Museum employee phoned Talk TV yesterday, and explained the situation, you describe. He concluded that if the British Museum hadn’t bought them and put them in safety in the museum, they’d probably no longer exist!
November 29, 2023
Good morning Sir John.
It was interesting to read how the statues came to be in the British Museum. My instinct tells me they should be returned to Greece. If other countries request the return of artefacts which have been acquired by Britain, due consideration should be given to such requests.
However, I am far more concerned about Sunak cancelling a meeting with the Greek PM because an agreement not to discuss the statues had been breached. What on earth induced Sunak to make such a juvenile decision? Offering the Greek PM a meeting with Dowden was no solution! An opportunity for two Prime Ministers to meet and discuss far more important matters was lost.
November 29, 2023
What can the Greek MP discuss apart from the Elgin Marbles? He has no country, no currency, no locus. He lives in a province of the EU.
November 29, 2023
Time Magazine “It took a series of shipments to send all of the Elgin Marbles to England. A U.K. Parliamentary Select Committee in 1816 ruled he had acquired them legally, and the collection was sold to the British government for some Ā£35,000.” how much is that in today’s money I wonder.
Art news says the marbles + transport including bribes for safe passage, the total price was Ā£74,000 – Ā£1 million now
November 29, 2023
Dear Sir
Many thank for a clear and concise history of the present ownership and procedures in this atricle, it clearly gives me a full understanding of the ownership historical procedures and fine motive. More enlightenment on such issues is necessary in light of the many misleading variations /publications/blogs etc.
November 29, 2023
Thank you for a more balanced and less hysterical overview of how the Elgin Marbles came to be here.
For years the usual suspects have used this as even further proof of the evils of English/British Imperialism, without any reference to the way of the world as it was.
Certainly no reference to the life and times of Greece and how the Marbles may not even be a thing to be argued over, should they have remained in place.
November 29, 2023
I was trying to think of a comparison of some great historic British sculpture that we too would sorely miss and want back, if held by a foreign state. I could only come up with Stonehenge!
We could have the copies of the marbles and send the Greeks the originals. What would it matter to us, that would mean so much to them?
November 29, 2023
We all know why Rishi Sunak has started this unnecessary silly row at this time.
What would be lost if the British Museum agreed to swap the originals for the copies in the Athens museum?
British academics and others from around the world could still go over and study them there, parts could be taken out of Greece temporarily for specialised studies or exhibitions or other projects, what is the real problem which is souring relations with our NATO ally? Is it because judges in Strasbourg ruled that Greece is not a safe country? But that was for illegal migrants, not historical artefacts.
November 29, 2023
George Osborne, who for some unaccountable reason is the Chair of the British Museum, has already indicated he supports sending them back to Greece, I assume his chum David Cameron will provide the necessary clearances in due course when the fuss has died down. Why Sunak is making a fool of himself over this issue and being discourteous to the Greek PM is also a mystery. Refusing to even meet the Greek PM is just petulant nonsense, he can just say “no” on the marbles and continue to discuss more important issues with our Western ally, like mass migration for example. It is really pathetic seeing him pretending to get tough on such a trivial issue when he caves in so easily on more important ones like confronting France over the small boats.
At one point in their history at the British Museum the marbles were scrubbed clean with copper brushes so they’ve hardly been well looked after in UK.
November 29, 2023
Good piece.
Todays pub-quiz question: where can you find a full-scale replica of the Parthenon?
November 29, 2023
Doncha just love the Americans. From Elvis to Dolly and Jack Daniel’s to the Titans, Tennessee offers so much and lots of it are original!
November 30, 2023
You’re on the team. Dog & Duck, next Wednesday, seven o’clock.
November 29, 2023
If the French had nicked Stonehenge when they ran England, and out in the Louvre (where the awful pyramid is) – we (most people in this country) would want it back.
Whatever you say about how āweā got hold of them, the Elgin Marbles belong I , and to, Greece.
For heavenās sake, for once, do the right and decent thing. Itās not as if there would be a public outcry. Hold an electronic referendum.
November 29, 2023
That should read āand put it in the Louvreā.
November 29, 2023
Perhaps we should ask for London Bridge back from Arizona š
November 29, 2023
They should not be returned. They were properly acquired and we have to be careful this is not used as a colonial argument. Need to stand firm on this and not lend as would not be returned and could be damaged. Matter closed and should not be further discussed as EU might start using it as a bat to hit us with. Need to distance ourselves from EU as much as possible, except for trade to our benefit, not theirs.
November 29, 2023
Several statues were sold back to the British, the Canadian and the Australian by a thrifty Government of India.
November 29, 2023
While correct āThe British Museum bought the marbles from Lord Elgin and is the custodian of them. They will need to make decisions about their future. The Prime Minister does not control the future of these statuesā
We have of course George Osborne the man that gave us the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) all because of his inabilities to run his department while in Government as the Chairman of the British Museum Trust.
I am surprised he has not been on the phone saying he will gold plate them and get Rishi to fund the work and their return by taking yet more money from the Taxpayer. He started the rot that is now imbedded in our everyday
November 29, 2023
Like it or not, London is a World City, not just the capital of the UK. These days it’s not really even British since successive generations of treacherous politicians invited the world and his wife, kids, parents, aunties and second cousins-once-removed to come and live here.
Since (unlike Athens) London is a World City the undeniable fact is that far more people will see the Elgin Marbles, which were legally obtained, if they remain in London.
So our treacherous politicians and the British Museum have to make a decision: are they going to champion the notion that London is a World City and, by default the British Museum is a World Museum ….. or are they going to disabuse it. Because that’s really the choice they have to make.
November 29, 2023
I take no view on the marbles, but where does all this so called repatriation of the past and history end ?
If the Elgin marbles were purchased at the going rate at the time, then I would have no objection if they were sold by the owners at the going rate now.
Fully aware that some elements of our past have not been good, but the same could be said of most Countries if you dig deep enough. Yet some of the good we have bought into the World, which includes protecting freedom and democracy for many Nations seems to get absolutely no mention, and is taken for granted.
Sometimes it seems like everyone in the World wants the UK (the taxpayer) to pay for everything !
November 29, 2023
The future resting place of the marbles is a matter of agreement between the British Museum and Greece. The key should be how well they can be preserved. If returned to Greece at least visiting them in Greece wil be a less expensive venture than going to London to see them, on top of which the climate and food are attractive.
November 29, 2023
Quite right. Had Elgin not made. A huge investment in saving what could be saved, and had the British not preserved these pieces in a safe and secure environment, they would have been reduced by now to what most people think of as marbles – tiny round pieces of stone.
What was properly bought in a legal contract must be accepted as having changed ownership – after all we are not demanding the return of all the gold the Brown sold for pittance. We respect the law of contract. Time others did too – Iām thinking of the BBC, maybe they need to start looking at their own contract and fulfilling it!
November 29, 2023
L.A. +++++++++
November 29, 2023
Over the years, our and other nations have bought much of what the Greeks have produced from the raw materials of their land. Many of our buildings comprise Greek marble, and tourists bring back all kinds of souvenir shop statues and low grade artefacts ending up in UK charity shops. Why should the UK return any one thing purchased hundreds of years ago? We wouldnāt demand the Sydney Harbour Bridge back just because it was designed and built in the UK. If countries did such things the worldās museums would become crazy merry go rounds of pass the parcel played with cranes.
November 29, 2023
Apparently, part of the Irish govt. response to the protests about child stabbing, (allegedly already laws in the pipeline just waiting for an excuse to be imposed ), is retrospective prosecution ( no time limit?). Actually I thought we already had that here grace Ć TB.
Leaders should really be wary of this sort of thing.
They can never know when or where the axe is going to fall.
Maybe one day the people of the U.K. will demand the return of all that has been stolen from them?
November 29, 2023
Seems like there is little difference for most observers between a good replica or the original (be it old stone carved by slaves or the Mona Lisa). I assume this is more distraction politics to take attention away from the open door Immigration levels, dire public service, the vaccine related excess deaths, NHS waiting lists, lack of housing, economic stagnation, vast and still increasing tax levels, inflation, vast and increasing public debt, the appalling WHO treaty, the lunacy of the deluded net zero religion agendaā¦
November 29, 2023
The Mona Lisa hugely overrated anyway, a rather blurry image of a fairly ordinary looking slightly red headed lass with an odd blurred landscape behind her. Millions of artists could know up better ones within a week. AI and a robot could surely do rather better.
Good piece on the clear vaccine lab origins by Mogg and the excellent Prof. Dalgliesh on GB news. Out sick joke Covid Enquiry continues avoiding all the real issues.
November 29, 2023
could āknockā up better ones
November 29, 2023
On the (net harm as is surely now clear looking at the stats.) vaccines, take a look at Pfizer, Moderna and the BioNTech share price for the last couple of years. Also at the new Dr Campbell Video on excess deaths around the UK. Still rather little investigation into these excess deaths (now surely exceed the Covid caused deaths) which are very overstated as deaths within 28 days recorded not deaths ācaused byā. Is the Sunakās government still throwing our money at Moderna and the others?
November 29, 2023
Gov. still pushing the āvaccinesā into older people and people with certain medical conditions.
I suppose it saves a bit on the NHS costs, some benefits and state pensions if some pop off a bit earlier as a result and it relieves the lack of housing slightly – is this part of the plan? Or just a fringe benefit as they see it.
November 29, 2023
LL, ++++++++++
November 29, 2023
Fact.
Conquered nations are raped and pillaged and laid waste.
The U.K. has been conquered from within.
See the carnage.
November 29, 2023
EV – Yes, Infiltration from Within and as stated by Tucker Carlson, Globalists want us to forget our heritage, our history and everything special that each country brings to the table.
The liberal talking point is to manipulate people’s emotions into accepting anyone into your “house” based off a fabricated sense of compassion but there is a sinister TROJAN HORSE lurking in the shadows which is about to be opened.
Wake up People, YOUR government does not care about you.
November 29, 2023
During WW2 the Germans plundered museums in occupied territories. Nobody would argue that therefore German (or any other) museums should have been allowed to keep this stolen loot. So the fact that Turkish authorities might or might not have allowed Elgin to take these Greek artefacts is besides the point.
And it’s not as if the British Museum is properly funded by the government, so you could easily argue that all of their artefacts are not being properly looked after. Whenever you visit the British Museum you can see this neglect.
November 29, 2023
I agree 100% with John on this. In fact had Britain not helped in the war of independence Greece may still be under Turkish rule. It would be a good gesture for the Greeks to gift the statues, and return the money we paid for them, in gratitude to the UK.
November 29, 2023
If they weren’t in Britain they would have probably been plundered during WW2.
November 29, 2023
The original marbles must be worth much more than the copies in the Athens museum. As they were bought for a fair price, we should sell them to the Greeks for market price, perhaps in an open auction, and swap the copies for use in the British Museum. The balance could be taxed and used to pay off UK debt.
November 29, 2023
Pay off UK debt? Are you mad? The government would rather throw in the Thames and let it drift out to sea rather than āpay down debtā. The very idea.
November 29, 2023
I typed a comment but got the reply it was a duplicate and was deleted.
November 29, 2023
Mine is still in moderation since early this morning. Only Doms was there when I typed my comment!
November 30, 2023
In my comment I stated that this particular article was of no particular interest but merely a smoke screen to divert the people’s attention away from a certain individuals dilemna, Of course it ddi not fit the narratrive So………
November 29, 2023
So your logical argument is that they should stay here?
I can understand why the Greeks what them back. They were taken at a time when (as you say) the British were able to look after them but the ‘Greeks’ were not. Quite reasonable. But now they have their own museum and can care for them.
Also, what a gesture of good will it would be in this time of very little goodwill in the world.
As marvellous as they are to fans of Greek sculpture, what proportion of the population would miss them?
Are they more important to the British than the Greeks?
Best wishes
Richard Cox
November 29, 2023
Our 2 Chancellors announced not taking Ā£20.3 billion from our pockets by reducing National Insurance rates over the next 5 years is a āgoodā thing. Then in the background he grabs Ā£44.6 billion directly from the tax payer over the same period. So, taking in more but calling it a cut!
Then is it any wonder people donāt buy these announcements from these two misplaced Individuals. This Government getting involved in things that donāt have anything to do with them is par for the course, it is all part of the speech making sound bits that pile up to allow for deflection away from the truth ā they are out of their depth.
This week sees the PM jet of (burning fossil fuel) to rub shoulders at COP. Although while he is there and on the subject matter of the day, he needs to look around him, and note that the people in the same room are protecting their economies and have ānotā got laws in place to stop them doing so. They will be asking him to go further because it saves them trashing their own economies, and he will probably comply.
November 29, 2023
A really helpful commentary which provides a rational perspective to the Elgin Marbles at the British Museum.
Re DOM’s comments, whilst I share his views in relation to the UK’s current crop of leaders I am much less jaundiced about the British nation as a whole! I see emerging politicians who I believe will be a vast improvement on what we presently have.
November 29, 2023
Interesting background data on this subject – thanks
November 29, 2023
I think we have far more serious subjects to discuss than the return of an artifact. We are seeing our own culture destroyed at the hands of our traitorous politicians. Whoās championing our nation? We see even more destruction in our capital city at the hands of those celebrating Albanian Independence Day. Why are these people in our country?
November 29, 2023
Our politicians standby and remain silent when our historic statues are torn down and defaced ,,,but are outraged by returning a foreign artefact
November 29, 2023
Quite agree. What an appalling situation.
November 29, 2023
Yes give the marbles back they do not belong to us even if we paid because the the Ottoman Turks had no right to allow their removal in the first place – stolen property is just that stolen
November 29, 2023
The UK paid for them Ā£75,000 including transport. Over a million now. If they have the funds to buy them back then perhaps we should consider it.
November 29, 2023
Copy them, 3d print them, video them …then return them
We have hundreds of thousands of objects in UK museums that are never seen
November 29, 2023
For a price glen! we paid Ā£75,000 for them and saved them from destruction. We pay a lot of money to keep the British Museum and others – if we are sold art then we should trade when it suits like most art over time.
November 29, 2023
The dinosaurs in the Natural History Museum aren’t real either.
November 29, 2023
Would it be great to have a national museum dedicated to british objects & history ….I enjoy our local transport museums
November 29, 2023
The Elgin marbles arrived in this country under similar circumstances to the artifacts taken from Iraq i.e.
they were removed from a nation during its occupation by an alien hostile force. Of course, as we know, the Ottoman empire were the bad guys whilst the Essential Nation whose empire is global in its reach are the good guys and so endorsed by the Labour and Conservative Party.
November 30, 2023
The Ottoman Empire managed to keep the peace in the middle east for long periods of time;as for the “indispensible nation”……………
November 29, 2023
We do not have an independent UK government. It does whatever the leftist Biden administration tells it to do; see all actions of the UK government since January 2021. If that administration has a view or policy about the marbles, then that is what will happen.
November 29, 2023
The marbles were legitimately removed from Athens and legally purchased by the British Museum. They should remain as part of the B.M.’s collections.
November 29, 2023
Itās worth looking at the S&P Global Clean Energy Index. It peaked in Jan 2021 in a fit of exuberance. Since then itās value has halved. Meanwhile the S&P has gone up by 40%.
Same with the Nasdaq Green Energy Index which has gone down by 40% whilst the Nasdaq has gone up by 40%.
Many companies have either pulled out of investments or have warned investors they do not see it working for decades into the future.
Green Energy and Green Capitalism is a busted flush.
November 29, 2023
There is no “free” hydrogen on this planet…it has to be made, from water or nat gas…it takes 50kWh of electricity to make 1kg of hydrogen from 10kg of water (the rest is oxygen)…1kg of hydrogen only contains the equivalent of 39kWh of energy – 11kWh is sacrificed to the gods of entropy…
Now, you want to use that hydrogen as a fuel source? Ok…only 30% is recoverable as energy if you burn it in an engine, 60% if you use it in the best fuel cells…
Hydrogen from nat gas figures are not much better…There Is NO Hydrogen Economy…it was all lies, from the beginning, and they knew it…
November 29, 2023
A must read –
‘The Governmentās Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) mandate specifically refers to motor manufacturers ā though there seems to be some ambiguity between āsoldā and āproducedā.
However there is no information provided as to how non-UK manufacturers will treated, and how foreign companies could be forced to meet the mandate under UK law’
https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2023/11/29/zev-mandate-cannot-be-enforced-with-foreign-manufacturers-say-dft/#more-69177
November 29, 2023
By remaining in London, the Elgin Marbles will be seen by more people than they would were they sent to Athens.
November 29, 2023
Perhaps we should put a price to enter that room to view them and copy them, and when a ‘insert suitable sum’ is reached then perhaps Greece could pay the safe transport for their return.
November 29, 2023
Agreed Sir John.
November 29, 2023
Raising the ownership issue of the Elgin Marbles at this time – after so many many years is a bit of a misnomer . They rest and belong in the British Museum where they are respected and admired by all of its visitors – no matter where they come from . Refusing to meet the Greek Prime Minister on the grounds that he would like to raise the ownership condition is another matter ; during any discussion at Prime Minister level surely it is possible to control the content ; so-called intelligent people can steer any topic that is raised in the direction they prefer . Sunak has displayed a definitely non – British behaviour at a time he can ill – afford to do so .
November 29, 2023
Agreed, Bert. Especially as Starmer met the Greek PM, and was able to make himself look reasonable and Sunak not. All I can say is. we will not be embarrassed internationally by this Prime Minister for much longer, the way he is going.
November 29, 2023
These items might not even exist had it not been for Lord Elgin rescuing them and removing them to safety. It seems the locals had no regard for them at the time, similar to the Egyptians who stripped the limestone covering from the pyramids when they wanted the stone for construction in Cairo. They seem to care more once they have become a tourist attraction and I would think more people would appreciate them in London than would go to Greece to see them.
November 29, 2023
This argument has been going on for decades. The Greeks have never been able to show they can reliably look after the artefacts. It is world heritage and that should over-ride nationalist sentiment.
November 29, 2023
Elgin bought them, they are more a part of Greek history, than British, so given that this government knows the price of everything but the value of nothing, it should sell the Marbles back to Greece, at the going market rate for artefacts of such cultural significance.
Britain in it’s much reduced economic condition, and with millions of new citizens who have no affinity nor knowledge of Western philosophical thought or artistic norms ( as, a trip around ‘Tate Modern‘ ( Ā£50 grand a tin ) will bare witness.
November 29, 2023
Once you accept the principle of returning the EM to Greece, you open the floodgates for every other country to claim back what they consider to be theirs. But with the woolly thinking George Osbourne heading up the British Museum, don’t be surprised if they are sent to Greece on loan, which means they will never come back.
November 29, 2023
We donāt need museums or for that matter history as the only things now taught in schools and universities is the UK participation in the creation of slavery and the oppression of poor nations
November 29, 2023
Interesting piece. The first time I’ve heard anything in detail regarding the history – isn’t it strange that the whiners never get into this? No, I didn’t think so either.
Because it rather shoots their argument down. With the above in mind, it seems this is at most a commercial dispute rather than a State/government matter.
November 29, 2023
And who owns the British museum, the people of the UK, who pays for its keep, the British people.
November 29, 2023
I continuously wonder why we have politicians who will never stand up to foreigners who try to bring down the BRITISH population.
The eu , un, wef and all such like must be firmly repulsed and put back in their cage.
The British way of life is sacrosanct and we refuse to take the knee to any foreign trash!
November 29, 2023
Off topic, Priti Patel is calling for the Windsor Framework to be re-opened:
https://unionistvoice.com/news/exclusive-priti-patel-writes-for-unionist-voice-windsor-framework-poses-a-risk-to-the-integrity-of-our-united-kingdom/
“Windsor Framework poses a risk to the integrity of our United Kingdom”
This all goes back to the lies that George Osborn and David Cameron spread before the EU referendum:
http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2023/11/25/my-question-to-the-chancellor-on-the-autumn-statement/#comment-1421353
āIt is now six years, almost to the day, since the Irish government threatened to veto talks on a post-Brexit trade deal unless we committed to remain under swathes of EU laws forever.
The correct reaction from the UK government would have been to call their bluff by saying that we would no longer seek any special trade deal, but would leave the EU on WTO terms.
However perceptions were coloured by the exaggerated āProject Fearā predictions of economic catastrophe if we did that, as promulgated by George Osborne and David Cameron.”
And those lies, never properly rebutted let alone exploded, are still influencing public opinion to this day:
https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/47997-britons-support-rejoining-the-single-market-even-if-it-means-free-movement
“Britons support rejoining the single market, even if it means free movement”
November 29, 2023
Off Topic: CCHQ is up to its old tricks…
https://conservativepost.co.uk/conservative-party-to-unseat-local-candidate-bradley-thomas-to-parachute-in-onward-director-seb-payne/
This is how the infiltration of Lib Dems happens. They play the dirty tricks game to get more of them in place and before you know it, the whole parliamentary party is infested with them.
When the likes of our host and Bill Cash are gone, very little of the party we knew will be left – other than a few activists at association level, fuming at their own impotence and increasing irrelevance.
November 29, 2023
it doesnāt surprise me
November 29, 2023
Looks like Starmer will hand them over. We must expect that he will cave in to the EU on any and every point of dispute irrespective of questions of right & wrong and of U.K. interests.
November 29, 2023
Does it really matter either way.
November 29, 2023
Give everything back while we are still civilised enough to do so before they are trashed by the barbarian hoards.
We are fast becoming unfit to be the guardians of culture thanks to your AWFUL party.
May we have a general election next week to kick you all out please ??
November 29, 2023
Of course Britain should not send the Elgin Marbles to Greece. It is legitimate for countries to hold in their museums the artefacts from other countries. If it were otherwise the great international museums of the world such as The Smithsonian in Washington and The British Museum would no longer be great (but practically empty with Egyptian mummies back in Egypt, Assyrian artefacts back in that wartorn and sometimes corrupt region etc.,) and we would all be very insular.
Even apart from that Greece even today is not a good location for artefacts. Beyond the Parthenon other museums have been run with foreign aid e.g. The Agora (Athens’ ancient market place centre) funded and organised by the Americans; Eleusis similarly supported by the French. In some local museums such as at Thebes they have had three display areas- the museum building itself, its enclosed garden and the unguarded pavement outside even for portable artefacts. When I went in the 1980s to the theatre just below the Parthenon where famous ancient Athenian playwrights originally had their plays performed it was overgrown and disused and more recently it has just been cordoned off to keep visitors away. There is still no museum nor visitor centre at the archaeological remains of ancient Sparta, the great rival of Athens. The Greeks should concentrate upon improving the presentation of what is still in Greece!
November 29, 2023
This history of the marbles conveniently says they must have been taken with the āpermission of the authoritiesā. Which authority? The Turks who were in charge? If so, they had no right to sell them or give them to anyone. Would we have liked if the French had dismantled Winchester Cathedral and given it to the Greeks?
November 30, 2023
‘The French’ – I take it you mean the Norman conquerors – built Winchester Cathedral, so your comparison doesn’t really work, Mike. Let’s say Stonehenge, and I would agree with your point.
It’s a difficult one, but personally, I would tend to go with what someone well-informed at the time thought of the rights and wrongs of Lord Elgin’s actions: Byron was there in Greece, and reacted with fury at the removal of the marbles from the Parthenon. He thought they would be safe in Athens. That’s good enough for me.
November 29, 2023
Honest truth: theyāre sort of interesting to see at the British Museum but Iād get much more out of a well-produced video describing them in their original place with proper contextual narration. The gallery which houses them is on balance a mild disappointment and if I had travelled far to see them I would feel short-changed.
Really, theyāre not worth the attention of one Prime Minister let alone two.
November 30, 2023
According to this modern Greek reasoning, any family which had to sell things to the Americans to pay death duties is now entitled to claim them back.
November 30, 2023
Also worth noting the following facts:
1. In 1819 Greece did not exist as a country, and never had. In ancient times there were various Greek-speaking city-states and kingdoms, but never a unified Greek nation state. The nearest to it was when it was part of Alexander’s empire, but that also encompassed lands from Egypt to Afghanistan.
2. Greece was conquered by the Romans in the second century BC, and was part of the Roman empire until it was conquered by the Ottoman Turks in the fifteenth century AD. The Byzantines in the middle ages spoke Greek, but did not call themselves Greeks but Romans. By Elgin’s time Greece had been part of someone else’s empire for over two thousand years.
3. In 1819 the majority of the population of Athens spoke Albanian. They cared not a fig for ancient artefacts, and were in the habit of burning marble fragments for lime to fertilise their fields. Drawings of the Parthenon made in the mid-eighteenth century by British visitors show numerous sculptures that had been destroyed by the time Elgin arrived. He saved what was left. Modern Greek national identity is an invention of nineteenth-century romantics.
December 2, 2023
John, the marbles should stay here in the UK. I know that this is part of the standard package of lefty nonsense, cultural appropriation. Haven’t got any time for them any more.