According to MI 5 and the Deputy National Security Adviser China regularly spies and tests out our systems. China dislikes UK naval vessels using international waters near Taiwan . Successive Ministers have expressed concerns about China, whilst successive governments have decided on a policy of having diplomatic relations with China and promoting mutual trade and investment.They have stressed they have the difficult conversations over human rights, Taiwan and threats whilst developing trade. Action was taken to remove China from sensitive areas like nuclear and digital communications.
This has now flared up over the issue of planned prosecutions of two people for spying for China. The decision to drop the cases over the issue of whether China is a threat has not been clarified. What changed? Why say the last government did not regard it as a threat when advice from that time made clear they did as they gathered the evidence for the cases to go to court.
So what should the government do? Does trading with a country mean you cannot say anything bad about its government? When the issue is the governments attitude to China how can Ministers stand aside and blame someone else? What should we do about China’s huge trade surplus with us?
October 19, 2025
Morning Sir John.
When you allow yourself to be in debt to someone, you in effect, give them power over you.
We are up to our necks in debt with China and therefore, we have given them a great deal of power over us.
October 19, 2025
Quite so. My question is what is Sir Olly Robbins doing in China? There’s a history with this man, the last time he ‘did a deal’ it was not for the benefit of our Nation. So what is he going to give away this time?
My guess is he’s trying to get the PRC to buy Gilts to prop up the 2TK/Reeves budget. As we know, the PRC is selling it’s US treasuries and buying huge amounts of gold. So what inducements is Sir Olly offering the PRC to lend to the UK? Any deal will cost us dearly.
October 19, 2025
Don’t forget Miliband was in China recently, grovelling to the regime.
October 19, 2025
Donna
Yes China is a threat, you do not need to spy on your friends, unless you feel they are going to betray you.
October 19, 2025
We’d better start learning Mandarin. We’ll be sold out by the politicians as usual.
October 19, 2025
We’ve been sold out already ….we just don’t realise …..show I.D please
October 19, 2025
Is China a threat ? Yes.
It is not just about China’s huge trade surplus. They are also allowed to have massive investments in our country which is undesirable and could be used against us. China is already threatening the UK over delays in the location of its new embassy.
This happens while China takes over as the leading economy from the US and will continue.
The spying trial is an issue of politicians trying to avoid blame for their mistakes.
October 19, 2025
It depends on the nature of the debt ?
If I owe the bank £5 you may say that they own me. But if I owe them £5 billion I can say that I own them.
October 19, 2025
that depends on whether you have £6 billion of liquid assets
October 20, 2025
It depends on whether they need the money. If they don’t they can demand you dance to their tune, letting them buy assets cheaply and buying from them – which only makes the problem worse.
October 19, 2025
Cliff. I don’t think China holds a lot of uk government debt. It’s more a case of the government being in step with the CCP
Digital ID cards being the latest manifestation.
October 19, 2025
Its not government debt ….its nationhood debt, they make everything, they own everything and sell us everything ….soon, very soon they’ll be the only shop in town
October 19, 2025
Yes Cliff, much as I like my cheap machine tools from China, too much dependance is a very dangerous thing. But can we wean ourselves away from them?
October 19, 2025
are they still working? Most of the stuff I’ve ever bought is cheap and nasty.
October 19, 2025
The quality has improved over the years MT – and you do still get what you pay for. If you want top quality machinery, they can certainlt can produce it but at a more ‘commercial’ price. My recent purchases have been very good. Perhpas not to the best UK/US brand standards still but then much of this is still made in Chine but to a better spec. We have hollowed out our manufacturing base and lost much of our skilled workforce too.
October 19, 2025
At one time you could buy quality if you wanted it. Now the only choice is Chinese and they don’t last.
October 19, 2025
The short answer to Sir John’s offering today is yes, of course China is a threat to national security. Their communist government is a variety of marxism and they view us as an arch capitalist enemy. Furthermore, we have settled large numbers of pro-democracy Hong Kong citizens here – China sees them as a particular threat
China, Russia, N Korea and organised crime groups regularly exploit weaknesses in government computer systems (including civil service HR departments) to break in and steal classified information, hold businesses to ransom (including the NHS) via phishing attacks and then use the information obtained to blackmail and “turn” employees
The one common thread that runs through all of this espionage activity is the exceedingly weak security that is built into the operating system that is used in government computers
Until this is rectified, expect more serious and expensive hacks
October 19, 2025
The UK is hardly very Capitalist. China tax as a % of GDP circa 20% the UK is not far off 50%. Also they spend it rather more efficiently. The UK so often spends our money actually doing large positive harms – Covid “vaccines” and lockdowns, Chagos, HS2, Net Zero, road blocking, ever more red tape, paying to augment the feckless, open door to low skilled net cost immigration, HS2, 20+ years to decide on new nuclear or extra runways, DEI…
October 19, 2025
USA tax as a % of GDP circa 27% and energy 1/4 of the cost! IHT thesholds UK £325k then 40% USA circa £8 million and a far lower % rate even after that!
October 19, 2025
Tax as % of GDP is another a bad yardstick for Capitalism.
October 19, 2025
Sorry, I wrote ‘not a bad yardstick’. My computer must be a socialist.
October 19, 2025
Quite correct. And where do they get a lot of money from ? Selling wind turbines, solar panel and EV batteries to mugs who think the world is going to end because of some ‘trace gas’, that’s who.
October 19, 2025
Not just “some trace gas” but CO2 the very gas of life and a bit more is a net good on balance. It is tree, crop and plant food, vital for greening the planet and absolutely vital for capturing energy from the Sun. This vital for nearly all the food we and other animals eat and life on Earth. Plus historically we live in a period with a relative dearth of CO2 anyway. Even a doubling of CO2 would cause only trivial warming and a little warming would be a good thing anyway.
The CO2 devil gas models do not even “predict” or model past climate changes let alone the future. The Earth has been through ice ages with far higher CO2 levels.
October 19, 2025
When Holy Greta learns to say “How dare you!” in Mandarin it might give her a little credibility…
My pal in Earley who covered his roof in solar panels a couple of years ago tells me they have produced hardly any electricity recently, but in the summer, when he didn’t need it, there was plenty. “So you sold it to the Grid?” I asked. “For a pittance” he replied.
October 20, 2025
That’s certainly how it works !
Only the oldest feed-in tariffs like ours really work because Gordon Brown set the reinbursement rate so high – and he indexed linked and guaranteed the rate for 25 years.
We receive over £2,000 a year which pays a high proportion of our gas bill !
October 19, 2025
All the while they ‘poison’ the world, both physically and morally.
October 19, 2025
They can because they brought the UN
October 19, 2025
“Their communist government is a variety of marxism and they view us as an arch capitalist enemy”
That view is long-past being true, surely?
Recall that Deng’s 1970s reforms introduced market-oriented policies, allowing private enterprise and foreign investment, which shifted China away from strict Marxism-Leninism. The “socialist market economy” prioritizes economic growth over ideological purity, with state capitalism and private wealth accumulation dominating.
As Ezra Vogel explains in his leading work “Deng Xiaoping and the Transformation of China”, the Chinese Communist Party largely abandoned rigid Marxist ideology, preferring instead to further consolidate its political power to maintain control and stability, now treating power as an end in itself.
October 19, 2025
How do you know they are pro-democracy Chinese who have ‘settled here’?
October 19, 2025
China is primarily an autocratic state. There may be some vestige of communism about it as well, but that’s only secondary.
October 19, 2025
This brings back memories of wandering into a People’s Republic ‘Store’ in Hong Kong many decades ago.
The shop was full of very crudley made goods at stupidly low prices. The smiling, constantly nodding staff were very keen to sell you anything and everything that you paused to examine but spoke no English. Outside the shop, loudspeakers blared martial music and songs based on Chairman Mao’s thoughts. According to one of my friends, the general thrust of this propaganda was that we (the Brits) were “the running dogs of the American Imperialists” It seems not much has changed then! 🙂
October 19, 2025
SG : “The short answer to Sir John’s offering today is yes, of course China is a threat to national security.”
Then why, SG, are you advocating the sabotaging our energy and relying upon China to supply us with all our energy infrastrucure?
October 19, 2025
Indeed. Yet more clear dishonesty from Two Tier. The man who effectively just gave Chagos to them absurdly using vast amounts of our money to do so.
What should we do about China’s huge trade surplus with us? Simple get our energy cost down to US levels about 1/4 of current, drill, mine & frack, scrap Net Zero and the Climate Change lunacy, scrap the workers rights bill, have a huge bonfire or red tape, scrap DEI, halve the size of the state, get rid all nearly all the obstacles to building and doing sensible things. Have a policy to kill essentially parasitic paper pushing jobs. Get rid of all the rigged markets healthcare, schools, housing, banking, transport, energy… scrap loans for worthless degrees about 75% are and cut and simplify taxes. So the complete reverse of Keir, Miliband, Phillips, Lammy, Reeves…
October 19, 2025
Lifelogic,
Simply??
I would suggest there’s nothing simple in carrying out your wish list. Your goals are of course correct, but “simply” , no!
October 19, 2025
Simple to see what is needed, but I agree not so simple to get a government that has any political will to do it and could/would actually deliver. Given the blob, the BBC and MSM propaganda outfits, the electoral system, the Lords, the hugely dishonest political parties, the legal profession and judges, other vested interests, the Climate religion, political parties that deliver the reverse of what they promises, the quangos, left charities, Bliar’s disastrous constitutional reforms, the international quangos…
See David Starkey winning the election will be the easy bit for Reform video.
First step is to try to stop Labour digging the hole even deeper!
October 19, 2025
Lifelogic,
I agree.. If Reform did win the next GE and forms a government, The Good Dog Club would put every roadblock and dirty trick in place to try to derail the government in much the same way as they did for Brexit.
October 19, 2025
LL,
Is ‘See David Starkey’ about to become one of your regular phrases – like ‘Allister Heath is surely correct in today’s Telegraph’ ?
October 19, 2025
I basically agree with this, especially halving (or more than halving) the size of the state, having a huge bonfire of red tape and killing essentially parasitic paper pushing jobs – nothing was ever manufactured by a pen or a laptop!
As for trading or accommodating other countries it is a matter of degree. In our far from ideal world we should trade with and accommodate the minor transgressors like Turkey (that imprisons journalists but is still mainly free and democratic)and cease trade and normal relations with the worst offenders like China (that kills its Falun Gong adherents and trades their body parts and disrupts our country).
October 19, 2025
For all that to happen you have to elect a government ‘fully committed’, with detailed policy documents, willing to carry all this out from day one.
October 19, 2025
Premier League chief executive Richard Masters “players WILL take the knee at this weekend’s matches” hopefully the more sensible less sheep like ones will refuse to. Why on earth should he be ordering them all to do this! Will we have to see Starmer and Rayner at it again.
I read that Rayner is to take her £17,000 loss of office payment for loss of office (actually her “resigning” due to her under paying £40k of stamp duty in an understandable error). I understand she can also get the £40k back once her son who benefits from the Trust is 18. Plus another tax free loss of office pay off when she is voted out in under 4 years time.
Any more news on Kier’s Donkey Gate “Trust was it or not?”.
October 19, 2025
Pretending to be a socialist, turns out she is a capitalist after all.
October 19, 2025
Yesterday, millions and millions of Americans exercised their constitutional right to take to the streets and protest Mr Trump’s domestic policies
The “No Kings” protests took place in all 50 states and followed similar protests in June. Worryingly, video footage posted on YouTube showed many protesters felt the need to cover their faces. The reason for this was clear; masked government employees were filming the protesters in a blatant attempt to intimidate them
People who took part in the protests are being targeted for federal government surveillance with a range of technology that would include facial recognition, phone hacking and determining immigration status
The main driving force for these protests appears to be the provisions in Trump’s “big beautiful bill” to withdraw Medicare health cover from millions of low-income Americans
Protests of this size would be banned in the UK due to police objections. But we already know that the police use the sort of facial recognition technology that the supermarket majors have already implemented to detect repeat shoplifters.
Reply What proof have you of surveillance? Trump denies he is withdrawing medical entitlements.m
October 19, 2025
Were they ‘US citizens’ or were they the illegals whom Trump is removing?
October 19, 2025
Is there something wrong with determining immigration status?
October 19, 2025
1. Put heavy tarriffs on their goods.
2. Stop nearly all immigration (not just from China but from most places). Expel the spies.
3. The most severe punishments should be used on traitors
October 19, 2025
No stop only the low skilled, net cost and likely criminal immigration and allowed in the hard working, wealthy, high skilled, hard working & large net benefit ones! Also actively remove the former where possible!
October 19, 2025
A real ONE in ONE out would be good. This to replace Two Tier’s absurd 2000 in then one out and another one back scheme. One hardworking, healthy, bright, skilled and with skills in demand, english speaking, honest perhaps fairly atheist or agnostic and wealthy person in and one (or pref. more) feckless, dishonest, benefit claiming, or (especially) criminal person out!
October 19, 2025
Thus lifting gdp pp for every one rather than depressing this every day as now with endless benefit claimants arriving each day then demanding housing, schools, doctors, lawyers, taxis, food, bikes, art lessons and other such entertainments.
October 19, 2025
You have a point. My idea is for those with no UK passport to be charged a tarriff when then come into the country, say, £50,000, refundable when they leave the UK.
Short stayers e.g. tourists, could take out insurance to cover this fee. Those who cannot be relied on to return would not get the insurance.
A system such as this would automatically give us the best people. For long stayers, those with independent means could afford it and those with valued skills could be paid for by companies that need them.
October 19, 2025
Tariffs just put prices up for the customer. Rather do something about the over-taxed and over-regulated UK, plus excessive energy and housing costs, so British industry can become competitive again.
October 19, 2025
Tariffs also repatriate productive jobs.
I no longer take calls from call centres outside the U.K. I just tell them repeatedly that I don’t understand them – mostly it’s true.
October 19, 2025
Good Morning,
Successive governments attitudes towards China has been incompetent. China wants control of SE Asia. It threatens its neighbours and tries to steal large areas of international waters. It does not follow international rules unless it benefits from them. Democracy is a threat to the CCP. Just recently China ‘threatened the UK with ‘consequences’ over delayed London mega embassy’ – The Guardian. Does that indicate the attitude of a respectful counterpart?
The CCP is a threat to all its neighbours and counterparts, because it has become illegitimate, it is not voted into power by its own people and now it has a faltering economy.
To answer your question, yes. We are very foolish in the extreme not to acknowledge this threat. We need to remove its spies from universities and elsewhere, deport the ‘Chinese Policemen’ threatening Hong Kong families living here, and reset our relationship.
October 19, 2025
@Peter Wood. I was struck with how much of your description of China in SE Asia and beyond could be applied to the EU in Europe and beyond.
October 19, 2025
Perhaps you have forgotten the EU bureaucracy has no military capability. Let’s hope it never does.
October 19, 2025
It has NATO across the road, manned by EU types.
Trump is the only fly in the ointment.
October 19, 2025
We should stop being naive about their Embassy intentions for one it would seem – maybe it needs the Americans to step in and say no rather like the Huawei telecom infrastructure epidode.
We are unsure how to deal with them on a geopolitical basis – China senses that and sees it as weakness.
October 19, 2025
Ed Miliband, the Labour SoS for Energy and Net Zero, has announced the creation of 400,000 jobs through his National Green Energy plan
Miliband has developed a new scheme to double those working in the green industries by 2030, involving apprenticeships and training for carpenters, plumbers, electricians, welders and heating and ventilation engineers. Without importing thousands of migrants with these skills
There will be huge demand for these skills and there will be a particular focus on re-training those leaving the fossil fuel industry, school leavers, the unemployed, military veterans and ex-offenders
Over 30 technical professions will be designated as priorities for recruitment, with salaries targeting £50,000 pa.
There will also be 5 new technical colleges set up with £2.5m of new money to help train young people into green industry management roles
Expect the net stupid Reform headbangers to object to Miliband’s plan. The last thing Tice and Farage want is to see millions of well paid green technical jobs generated as part of Miliband’s proposal
Reply Much of this is wishful thinking and creative accounting. No mention of all the current jobs related to fossil fuels which are being destroyed as reported here.
October 19, 2025
He’s just trying to keep the Labour-funding Unions, who are furious about hundreds of thousands of job losses, onside.
The New Statesman spells it out very nicely: “The Energy Secretary’s clean power plans have been enthusiastically backed by some of net zero’s loudest critics within the trade union movement.”
Whose going to be funding these fictitious 400,000 jobs? Let me guess, if they ever get created it will be taxpayers, current and future. Because the private sector can’t afford them.
October 19, 2025
Miliband today said that he’s creating 40,000 renewable jobs by 2030 ……but today 7,000 lost jobs by betfred, another 1,000 by paddypower and unknown hundreds of thousands in the oil/gas industry and its supply chain
October 19, 2025
Updated to ‘creating 400,000 jobs’ in the energy sector https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3vnr45x5qyo
October 20, 2025
Is China supplying the treadmills for them to work?
October 19, 2025
SG : “Ed Miliband, the Labour SoS for Energy and Net Zero, has announced the creation of 400,000 jobs through his National Green Energy plan.”
The more people working on producing our energy, rather than working in useful jobs, such as manufacturing products for export, particularly green energy that is expensive, weather dependent, unreliable and chaotically intermittent, the poorer we all become. It is essentially the reverse of the Industrial Revolution where cheap, abundant and reliable energy from coal dramatically raised our standard of living. There is a direct correlation between the cost of energy in any country and its standard of living. The anti-science, anti-CO2 cult has been devised to sabotage the West’s energy and thus bring impoverishment and national insecurity. CO2 is the gas of life. It greens the planet and more of it causes more food to be grown. Additional CO2 brings little, if any, additional warming as evidenced by climate history, and by Happer & Wijngaarden using the IPCC’s own false CO2 greenhouse gas warming theory. Not that additional warming, which occurs mainly in the higher latitudes, is a problem. In fact for most of the last 500m years since the Cambrian explosion there has been no snow at the poles. So what is Ed Miliband’s next idea for green jobs? Perhaps he could create millions more green jobs by ending the use of agricultural equipment and fertiliser?
October 19, 2025
Rg
Do you really think Ed Miliband’s policies are going to create 40,000 new productive jobs that require no taxpayer subsidy.
How many job losses of present employment will be lost with the same policies, more or less than 40,000 ?
October 19, 2025
He also said his job was to reduce energy costs by 2030.
From what level?
October 20, 2025
Whatever they are in 2029?
October 19, 2025
Are you familiar with the name “uanime5” he was another clown who berated those it considered faithless on this blog a few years ago.
Where will these extra 400,000 jobs come from and who will pay the additional £20 billion per year to employ them? Better still, where will the £43 billion pa come from for the 860,000 ministers have claimed will be in place in 5 years?
The government cannot be talking about private sector small businesses as they have been killing us off with taxes, regulations and expensive energy. So are these additional public sector jobs and yet more tax increases, hardly a positive achievement.
PS MacFadden (DWP) is claiming “We’re giving workers the skills needed to switch to clean energy, which is good for them, good for industry, and will drive growth across the nation.” How much is this training costing and who is paying for it?
October 19, 2025
Economically Yes!, as the EU is discovering from China’s export restrictions of its rare earth elements.
There are so many entanglements and hidden strategic alliances.
I wonder, if as they say, the Americans play Poker, the Russians Chess and the Chinese Go, what does our PM play ?.
October 19, 2025
@ Sulis – I do not know but he might well take up the fiddle, ready to play just as did the Emperor Nero.
October 19, 2025
He’s already a virtuoso on the fiddle.
October 19, 2025
Rectifying the trade deficit with China will require long term solutions. We will need to identify the high quality product that can be manufactured either in the UK or the West. We will need to identify the lower quality product that will always need to be made in the Emerging Markets. We will need to diversify those lower quality supply chains across China, India, Vietnam etc. To effect all this the British government will need to use tax incentives, subsidies, trade agreements and deregulation.
We can now see we got rinsed by China. It masqueraded as a friendly partner when it was actually a Communist threat all along.
Such is the oversight when the West does group-think, it always gets it wrong: Covid overeaction, inflationary QE response, UN mass migration wealth redistribution, Net Zero self harm, Woke-Marxism… The UK has been a very friendly idiot.
October 19, 2025
Good morning.
Is China a threat. China is no more or less of a threat to the UK and her interests than any other country, whether we perceive them to be or not. The issue is, did persons act in a way that damaged the UK national interest ?
I seem to remember that the Cambridge Five spy ring did not consider themselves to be traitors of the UK because the Soviet Union was, albeit between 1941-1945, was an ally. No mention of the fact that most of their treachery was done both pre and post WWII.
So to my mind the question above is not a wrong one, but it is, or can be said to be misleading, and the nature of the debate is an exercise in obfuscation.
October 19, 2025
Why is China seen as more of a threat than the EU – Our governments have been kowtowing to the EU for far longer who have far more influence over our affairs.
This notion that we have friends and enemies is simplistic rubbish – everyone is a threat to our interests. Do you believe the US is a “friend” in every way and in all things?
How much do you believe, as in stake your lives on, that NATO countries would come to our aid if we or our interests were attacked.
What kind of threats – economic, military, territory ..?
The first step is to decide what our interests are which means deciding who “we” are – the government, the realm, the citizens …. as things stand this government believes only the selfish pecunary and power interests of a select few politicos count with everything and everyone else just chaff.
October 19, 2025
Indeed. the EU is openly and actively hostile, damaging UK at every opportunity it gets. We can’t send illegals back to France because of fear of EU retaliation. We have a trade barrier between GB and NI because the EU wants to take NI from UK. The EU abuses what fishing rights it has got. If the UK does anything that might demonstrate to EU member states they might be better off outside the EU it will penalise Britain one way or anothe to nullify that advantage. Were our government itself not so hostile to UK, the EU would be much more aggressive.
October 19, 2025
@Dixie. +1. Our own governments are increasingly a great threat to the citizenry. Our government and security agencies also play up, or down, external threats as and when it suits them. From “false flag operations” to “forget it, no problem here” we are kept in the dark where possible. Unfortunately the citizens often fall for these ploys and fail to see how our rulers are manipulating them.
October 19, 2025
+ 1. Well said.
And in reply to Sir John’s question “Does trading with a country mean you cannot say anything bad about its government?” the answer is often shown to be “yes” if the country is an E.U. member and could be “yes” also in China’s case.
October 19, 2025
We need a serious long term plan to disconnect from China completely. Of course it will be painful in the short term, but unless we want to slowly be taken over by a communist regime and become nothing more than a vassal of that regime, then doing nothing, is not an option. Allowing the CCP to build this super embassy in London will go down as one of the biggest ever acts of self harm done by a UK government on its people. The list is long on this point.
October 19, 2025
We also need to take steps to free ourselves from the ‘Yes Boss’ defer to USA. In fact more than that, free from a President decision, not public America’s opinion.
October 19, 2025
‘No Kings’ perhaps?
Snappy title though our king is just a figurehead. He cannot order the destruction of boats of the coast of Venezuela, reward his friends or destroy his enemies by any means available…..
October 20, 2025
He seems to have some power over his brother.
October 19, 2025
Of course China is a threat. We are up to our necks in debt to them and they are using it to advance their interests in the UK, largely thanks to Cameron/Osborne and their naivety.
Our manufacturing base has been destroyed and largely transferred to China, so that we are forced to import pretty much all the necessities for 21st century life. It will take a long time, a handbrake U-turn on energy policy and an iron will which is at least as strong as Thatcher’s to reverse that.
But every journey starts with the first step. And the first step the Government should take is to cancel the Super Embassy.
October 19, 2025
They’ll talk and talk and in six month china will have its super embassy …..we shouldn’t just cancel the embassy we should cancel chinese visa for 1 years
October 19, 2025
Many countries resent being lectured about moral issues by Western countries they consider to be decadent. In China’s case there is also the issue of trust. China is naturally cautious about trusting other countries and it was a particular concern after WW1 in which the Chinese supported the Allies and subsequently, as they see it, was betrayed in the Versailles talks.The issue was the Japanese (an ally in WW1) liberation of Shantung from the Germans and whether Japan could retain controlling rights over the territory. The Chinese leading delegate said that “Shantung was the cradle of Chinese civilization, the birthplace of Confucius and Mencius, and a Holy Land for the Chinese.” Moreover, to allow Shantung to fall under foreign control would be to leave a “dagger pointed at the heart of China.” Nevertheless, after much discussion, the allies gave Shantung to Japan and assured China of Japan’s future peaceful intentions. We all know now what those assurances were worth. The Chinese do not forget and this betrayal is one reason they turned to communism instead of Westernising.
The issue is trust. Western countries spy on others for many reasons, one of which is to verify whether in negotiations they are being truthful. Another is to enable assessments of capabilities and intentions. Indeed the UK government would be considered negligent if it did not spy on other countries. So why should not China spy on UK? We go through this diplomatic dance of expulsions of spies who are discovered and retaliatory expulsions. That is usually the end of the matter.
However our own citizens, as in other countries, are a different matter. If thy disclose sensitive information it is right they should be punished. I do not understand why the question whether China is a threat is relevant to the question of whether an offence was committed. Art 1 of the Official Secrets Act is quite clear that unauthorised disclosure to anyone not cleared to receive it is an offence. Full stop. That verdict need not give offence to China. It is an internal matter. Whether China is a threat or not is a consideration only for sentencing. It is absurd for China to be offended by that either. Countries compete and all countries spy on competitors and have a duty to do so on behalf of their citizens.
I suspect the real reason is yet another cover up. Starmer says the most sensitive information was never at risk. That means it was not of much value to China so a) why does the court need to know about the degree of threat and b) why should the government be concerned about offending China? Is it because the government doesn’t want to risk expulsion of its own spies in China, which would be reasonable but unlikely?
I suspect that there was an administrative stuff up. Was the information under-classified? Should it not have been given to the accused who disclosed it in the first place? Perhaps it really was highly sensitive information about China itself but was not properly handled.
October 19, 2025
@Peter Gardner – agreed disclosing sensitive information even to your, family, friends or neighbours, is still passing information to others that they are not entitled to. It is still a crime and offence.
Or is further confirmation of the TwoTier Justice system now foisted on the UK?
October 19, 2025
It doesn’t have to be – it all depends on the attitude of the political establishment, and ours is talking more about China as an enemy rather than as a partner.
Do you confront a powerful opponent or attack it out of fear it will harm you?
We have very little to back up a confrontational approach, besides that is often counter-productive.
The only realistic action we can take as China becomes an ever bigger super-state is diplomacy with friendly relations, but with clear red lines policed.
October 19, 2025
Tugendhat must be very pleased the Chinese are interested in his opinions.
These chaps were charged under the Official Secrets Act. Which we all knew was useless against anyone but a declared ‘enemy’. So this was a ba**s up and total waste of time and money and never likely to get to trial.
Bit awkward to declare the Chinese an ‘enemy’ – too useful. But they had been found out and the Chinese got the message, so all cushty. Remember our American friends are not above a bit of spying on us also the French, the Germans and anyone else who can be bothered. That is the way of the world – get used to it.
But how many more parliamentary employees are at it? A threat or an opportunity? Remember the secret squirrels are beholden to America so their view is a bit err biased.
October 19, 2025
What is a secret squirrel?
October 20, 2025
It’s a reference to an American children’s cartoon series from the ’60s. Secret Squirrel was a spy.
October 22, 2025
thanks
October 19, 2025
China presents many signs of being a threat, which are well known. Any unexpected risk occurring happens always because it is unexpected.
You ask what the government should do: Resign and let the people choose high quality representatives in Parliament who will ensure protection of our Realm as their highest priority.
October 19, 2025
We need to select them now.
Each constituency should set up a cross party Selection Committee and invite applications.
October 19, 2025
“Who the hells side are you on ?”
Asked MP Tom Tugendhat a bullseye!
That depends who wants to know.
Ever wondered why Rachel Reeves is always smiling especially after visiting the IMF but crucially more important China in January?
She is known as Dragon lady in the Treasury for her accommodating China.
Whatever she (and Miliband) have committed Britain to we don’t know other than China’s CCP is demanding full speed ahead with the largest Spy Centre Embassy in Europe metres from the sensitive nerve centre of the beating heart City of London key Financial golden goose.
Imagine if they got in they would demand even more and have the ultimate
piece de resistance.
Checkmate!
Barmy, nuts, capitulation, the ultimate chess game.
Britain’s Royal Mint plus Britain’s real Crown Jewels.
October 19, 2025
It is difficult to understand why Western countries generally and UK specifically did not realise by outsourcing industry to China and the Far East we would weaken our vital strategic interests both technically and militarily? Surely it was obvious they would seek to use their economic influence to further develop their own technology and economy? Why are our political leaders and their advisors so naive? In many ways we’ve fallen into the very same trap over energy with the outsourcing of wind turbine blades and solar panels! China has virtually no overseas military bases. America has dozens. China has a long history of pursuing power by economic means going back to the Ming dynasty. They will overtake America as the world’s economic superpower. Greed by Western supranationals has largely destroyed so much of our industrial base and indeed America. China certainly presents an economic threat to the UK, but that’s of our making, but I don’t see China as a military threat. Our problem along with much of Europe stems from weak leadership and appalling policy decision making both economic and military.
October 19, 2025
If China is not an enemy, why was it spying?
October 19, 2025
China isn’t just spying, they’re influencing, they’re buying power & control, they’re massageing opinion
October 20, 2025
Yes, they now ‘own’ Africa. Africa cannot ever repay the debt to China. And China does not behave as the British did, spending money, it demands returns on investment.
October 19, 2025
How much UK government debt does China hold or control ? How much Chinese technology is embedded in UK infrastructure ? How much government data is in Chinese hands following hacking ? We’re in no position to take on China.
October 19, 2025
“promoting mutual trade and investment” Strange deduction, the UK is permitted to buy all the goods China sends it. China is permitted to buy up UK assets and businesses. Yet the bottom line is the freedoms afforded to the Chinese State Machinery are not reciprocated. The UK or anyone else for that matter can not open facilities in China unless China owns the majority share, and technology is transferred.
The one that amused me recently was while Jaguar has stopped all UK production (another company protected by its home Country), They, or more correctly their Chinese majority owner in China launched a new model with those banned in the UK ICE installed.
Reflect, the whole of POTUS’s disruptive push was to rebalance trade, rebalance the lack reciprocity in World Trade. He hasn’t completely succeeded, as whether it is the China, the EU, India they treat trade as a weapon they protect their businesses from competition but expect, demand, open markets in other markets.
Some of us remember ARM a World leader and dominate player in computing and communications, said to have had 90% of the mobile World using its technology. When the Conservative Government kicked them out of the UK, China was able to pick up all ARM’s IP for its own use. SoftBank only own the bit that isn’t now under Chinese State Control.
Is China a threat? Of course they are, they are waging an economic war against the World and wining because they protect their country their people and their industries
October 19, 2025
At this moment in time Our UK Government supported by more than 50% the 650 MPs in Parliament, have shown they will send China UK taxpayer money without getting anything in return. They have shown China ‘must’ be used in all instances in preference to supporting UK Industry and Businesses. The UK Parliament has embodied what appears to be agents of the Chinese State in all UK’s procurement.
October 19, 2025
Sir John
“Is China a threat?” That’s the wrong question; it is the majority of the 650 MPs sitting in Parliament with those they have chosen to be our government that is the biggest threat.
The Tory’s deindustrialised the UK and choose their preferred partner China to do the polluting of the World for us. This new more extreme Socialist faction is just following the lead given them by the previous shower.
It is not the People of the UK that is sanctioning their taxpayer money being given to China to support that regime, it’s the majority of the UK Parliament that is promoting it. They don’t care about UK jobs, a UK future.
Any State that wants ‘free trade’ be given access to another nations money and wealth should from the outset reciprocate, even contribute, not by subterfuge just take. Protecting Home markets as China, the EU and India do is not free trade, that is weaponising trade. The UK Parliament knows this, they know it leads to the destruction of the country, the destruction of its wealth creation and ultimately the destruction of Society. They only conclusion that can be derived from this will imposed on us by our own people is they have bought into the full Socialist WEF ideal or they themselves are co-conspirators working as foreign agents – how else do you explain it?
October 19, 2025
I understand the current law removes this issue but the idea that China was not a threat is nonsense.
We have no declared ENEMIES except in time of war. But any foreign nation, even a friend, may engage in spying, which should be a crime.
That said, it seems all these people did was pass on political gossip. I’m not sure that’s spying
October 19, 2025
Sir John
Just passing privilege information outside its intended audience is clearly wrong, a crime. Individuals who as part of their job would have been signed up to official secretes codes.
Even that is not the point if you know that the information you have is privilege and it is not intended for broader circulation, and then go against that they have committed an offence.
If Parliament is now suggesting they have the discretion on how to administer two tier laws they themselves as individuals shouldn’t be in Parliament.
Why should it affect China what punishment these individuals get? Unless of course the intention is to ensure that China always has these individuals passing them information.
It’s a weird question.
October 19, 2025
China is a threat, they’re doing what they do because no one is stoping them (apart from Trump) ….via ecomonics, finance, bribery and corruption china dominates in many asian countries, they start by influencing investment, then education then politics …winning without war
I fear its too late
October 19, 2025
“Action was taken to remove China from sensitive areas like nuclear and digital communications.”
If China was removed from nuclear and digital communications, although the removal of China from nuclear was possibly more to do with no longer wanting China to provide finance at 9% interest which doubled the cost of Hinkley Point C, why is it considered safe to have China supplying our kill switch enabled energy infrastructure – wind turbines, solar panels made using coal fired energy and slave labour, and the metals and minerals for motors, generators, batteries, cabling and very shortly, all our vehicles?
October 19, 2025
Yes, Sir John, i do think China are a threat based on my perception of their dealings with the outside world.
As i see it they take over the assets of a country including its manufacturing/raw materials supply etc thereby enabling them to hold the reins of power and spreading their ideology, slowly but surely to the detriment of all save themselves and those in their pockets.
To what degree this may have already happened in UK i am not qualified to judge, but do know some at least has. Most recently this government have given them what they wanted with Chagos & the collapse of the “spying” case; they’ve threatened unspecified repercussions for the UK if they don’t get approval of their super-embassy now (they want that). What exercises me currently is knowing how one can negotiate business with them, which judging from the numbers of officials’ visits to China is under way, from a position of strength without a total change of government.
We need a Trump. I greatly admire what he’s achieved for his country and its people.
October 19, 2025
The Spectator had an article a few days ago, the title is in the website address.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-are-british-aides-going-on-future-leaders-trips-to-china/
“The ‘Future Leaders Programme’ is organised by the Great Britain-China Centre (GBCC), a taxpayer-funded quango charged with encouraging ‘dialogue’ with China. According to parliament’s register of interests, staffers for Catherine West, then Foreign Office minister for the Indo-Pacific, and for David Lammy, the Deputy Prime Minister, have been flown out on such visits to China in the past two years, as well as at least one civil servant, a former aide to a Prime Minister and staffers for backbenchers. Neither West’s nor Lammy’s offices responded to my requests for comment.”
Are they being trained on how to run the country Chinese style? If not, why so secretive?
October 19, 2025
369 criminals were illicitly shipped, into the UK yesterday on the 18th October from France…
October 19, 2025
369 criminals that we know about. How many were shipped in under the cover of a super injunction?
October 19, 2025
Or just come with a visa ….and stay
October 19, 2025
Tomorrow is the third reading of the bill to hand the British sovereign territory of the Chagos Islands to Mauritius.
China has built a smart city right next door to Port Louis, Mauritius
October 19, 2025
The UK Parliament has set itself up to fight the Nation, their appointed Government does everything to destroy UK Structures – Blair continued….
From today’s’ media – Iain Duncan Smith, the former Tory leader, warned that allowing CKI(China) to control such critical infrastructure would be an act of “madness” given the threat posed to the UK by China. They written to Ofwat, the industry regulator, to make clear its continued interest in the heavily-indebted supplier and said it was prepared to invest “whatever it takes”. (Invest?)
Dominic Cummings, the former adviser to Boris Johnson who revealed the Chinese theft of secret UK data, was among those who sounded the alarm about CKI’s bid.
“Brilliant, after letting China buy the data infrastructure used by MI6, Cabinet Office, MoD etc for secret data – and covering up and lying about it this week – the Government now wants to let China buy ALL THE WATER SUPPLY FOR LONDON,” he wrote on social media platform X.
The enemy is not China it is within the majority of our 650 MPs. That appear to be desperate for a Chinese modelled, Marxist style Controlling State here in the UK.
How about supporting UK Business & Industry before supporting those that would never allow similar in their protected Home Markets
October 19, 2025
”The enemy is not China it is within the majority of our 650 MPs”
Correct
October 20, 2025
You forgot the 850-odd members of the House of Frauds. Plenty there as well.
October 20, 2025
Its easy to forget them
October 20, 2025
@Donna – the noisy bunch that have no credibility and to much say in what others call a ‘democracy’. The upper house as the call it is part of the Legislative process, but only Legitimate if they are held to account by the electorate. Their existence and status just highlights the corruption of thought and meaning of the other house – they hate their own very being
October 20, 2025
Does China buy anything from us, (tradewise)?
October 20, 2025
I wish I could understand the public narrative.
Does this failure mean that only spies for declared threatening states can be prosecuted? Does this mean that government employees passing confidential and privileged information to nations who may be our allies or unaligned can do so with impunity? Is the Official Secrets Act worth the paper it is written on?
October 22, 2025
And what about the imminent decision on their spy embassy about which they are getting testy?