Remain does not do democracy – they just assert they know better than the people

The Remain MPs who lost the referendum now tell us we must believe in Parliamentary sovereignty and let Parliament decide whether we leave the EU or not. They try to claim Leaver MPs are not democratic in wishing for us just to leave. They want to pitch Parliament against the people, and get Parliament to dilute or cancel Brexit. They do not accept our argument that Parliament gave the decision to voters and promised to do what they decided, so to do otherwise is to undermine the sovereignty of the people.

This week they had their way and put so called No Deal back to the vote. They lost. Under their own doctrine they should now be saying that Parliament has exercised its powers and has come to a decision. Some of them, of course reveal yet again their anti democratic instincts by claiming Parliament must vote again on  this issue as it got the wrong answer. Clearly as they see it Parliament did not understand the question!

The irony of the Remain position is huge. These Remain MPs who delighted in voting away our Parliamentary powers in treaty after Treaty, Directive after Directive, now like to pose as upholding the rights of the very Parliament they trashed  by removing much of its freedom  of action. Now they demand that Parliament votes to deny the people their decision. Each time they lose they demand a re run on  the grounds that Parliament, like the people, has got it wrong and needs to vote on it all over again.

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  1. Pominoz
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 5:13 am | Permalink

    Sir John,

    Bet you Bercow lets them have another shot!

    • Tad Davison
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 8:43 am | Permalink

      Bercow is supposed to be neutral, yet he’s nothing of the kind. He’s a problem to be overcome. If an errant Prime Minister can be forced to go, then surely an errant speaker who does not espouse the requisite values and honour of that high office can be forced out too?

      • jerry
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 8:48 pm | Permalink

        @Tad Davison; “surely an errant speaker who does not espouse the requisite values and honour of that high office can be forced out too?”!

        Of course, in fact Bercow’s predecessor suffered such a fate due to his (perceived or actual) failings with regards the MP’s expenses, but it needs the will of the House, a majority wanting to oust the Speaker…

        • Tad Davison
          Posted June 16, 2019 at 1:23 am | Permalink

          I agree entirely, but what a damming indictment of those in whom we place a sacred trust.

          • APL
            Posted June 16, 2019 at 8:23 am | Permalink

            Tad Davison: “in whom we place a sacred trust.”

            That’s a lesson worth learning!

    • Ian
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:16 am | Permalink


    • Jack Leaver
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:59 am | Permalink

      The first thing the new PM should do is to table a vote of no confidence in the speaker on the grounds that he is not impartial. I expect that even if it failed because of backing from Labour, SNP and the usual suspects, there would be a substantial number of MPs voting for the motion that would make Bercow’s position untenable.

    • outsider
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

      Dear Pom-in-Oz,
      Removing Speaker Bercow should perhaps be a high priority for the incoming PM. This would clearly require a campaign using “every tool at his disposal” rather than one simple vote of no confidence. But having a Speaker in whom perhaps 40 per cent of MPs have no confidence on a long-term basis is unhealthy for our democracy. It is not just a matter of Brexit. Mr Bercow has brought in some good innovations but making the Speaker a power-broker on the American model is not one of them. Restoring some dignity to the office and reversing the rise of coarseness, bullying and favouritism would also help to recover the low standing of the HoC among citizens in a post-Brexit Britain.

      • Tad Davison
        Posted June 16, 2019 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

        Bercow shows disdain for even-handedness. Anna Soubry is a case in point. She gets called innumerable times, whilst other back bench MPs struggle to be heard. And I suggest it is purely because she and he are of the same remainer ilk who are out to stop Brexit any way they can.

  2. Bob Dixon
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 5:17 am | Permalink

    Where is Oliver Cromwell.
    He would sort them out.

    • Harry
      Posted June 16, 2019 at 11:57 am | Permalink

      Where is Guy Fawkes?

  3. Alan Jutson
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 5:19 am | Permalink

    If they are concerned about democracy, how about a re run of the Peterborough by election, but this time without postal ballots.

    How can Parliament be sovereign when EU law and regulations carry a priority over UK law in so many areas.

    • JoolsB
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:57 am | Permalink

      Exactly. Postal voting is an invitation to fraud which is why Labour introduced it in the first place and this useless Government has done absolutely nothing about it. Postal voting should only be available to those too ill or too infirm to get themselves down to the voting booth.

      • JoolsB
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:03 am | Permalink

        John, unbeknown to me, I have just discovered my remain voting student son voted in the EU elections. Unbeknown to him there was also a voting card here for him as well. The stories about students having two votes are obviously true.

        What are your Government doing about this?

        • Fuddy Duddy
          Posted June 15, 2019 at 3:52 pm | Permalink

          I could have voted twice as I had two voting cards, one from old address and another from the new, but I had requested a postal vote which never came.

        • sm
          Posted June 15, 2019 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

          There is nothing new in this, it was definitely happening 30 years ago, when people brought it to the attention of our Association office; I personally knew of students whose home constituency was sufficiently close to their University constituency that they were able to vote twice in one day at general elections.

        • Mark B
          Posted June 15, 2019 at 6:49 pm | Permalink

          No answer came the reply.

          We moan about the lack of democracy of the EU and yet we ignore the problems here at home. This is a simple matter to fix and yet, those in government are simply incapable. Whatever happened to, one man, one vote ?

    • NickC
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:34 am | Permalink

      Alan Jutson, Declaration 17 of the Lisbon treaty formalises the primacy of EU law over our UK law.

    • Jack Leaver
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 12:49 pm | Permalink

      Remember that Fiona Onasanya won the Peterborough in the 2017 GE with only 607 votes (less than 1.3%of votes cast) and that after she was convicted of perverting the course of justice she was still able to sit in Parliament and vote as an Independent for Yvette Cooper’s Bill to demand an Article 50 extension on 3rd April 2019. It passed by a majority of 1!

      This clearly demonstrates that elections must be to be absolutely legitimate and there should be and stricter regulations for postal voting and more rigorous scrutiny of unusual postal voting patterns to ensure that no fraudulent activity has taken place. If it is proved that electoral fraud has taken place in the Peterborough by-election, it should by implication cast doubt on the 2017 GE result.

      • Doug Powell
        Posted June 16, 2019 at 9:00 am | Permalink

        After the last GE, I raised the matter of people voting twice, of which there was much anecdotal evidence, with the Electoral Commission. If you remember there was a more than average swing against Tory seats in university towns. Below is a summary of the reply I received?

        It appears that as things stand there is no means of uncovering 2 time voters. Only evidence can bring miscreants to book. The reality is then, that if anyone votes twice, keeps his/her mouth shut, then he/she gets away with it.
        Obviously legislation is required to set up a database of those eligible to vote in 2 constituencies.

  4. formula57
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 5:22 am | Permalink

    Your message needs to be hammered home to the British public before they are required to vote on this Parliament of Quislings.

    Concerning “Under their own doctrine they should now be saying that Parliament has exercised its powers and has come to a decision” – perhaps they will say parliamentarians did not understand what they were voting for and so the anti-democratic Remoaners amongst them really won after all?

  5. Lifelogic
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 5:24 am | Permalink

    Exactly right and nearly all these MPs were elected in 2017 on manifestoes that promised to respect the referendum result and to leave.

    But then all but a tiny handful of MPs voted for Ed Miliband’s vastly expensive, job exporting and hugely damaging Climate Change act. So we can all see clearly what irrational and anti-democratic, economic and scientific illiterates nearly all MPs are. It is a job that alas attracts (in the main) entirely the wrong sorts of people – with a few honourable exceptions – perhaps 100 or so at best. Then these wrong sorts stuff the Lords with more of their lefty, remainer, anti-democratic, greencrap pushing, bureaucratic, anti-scientific ilk.

    • NickC
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:37 am | Permalink

      Come on, Lifelogic, say what you really mean; don’t hide behind euphemisms.

  6. Mick
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 5:28 am | Permalink

    Without the people there is no Parliament no democracy, what these remained muppet Mps should get through there thick sculls is that the people are in charge and not the 650 selected servants of the land, the sooner they get this message the better and if they cannot understand this concept then step down and we the people will put into power Mps that will carry out the will of the people , betray us at your peril but we the people will have our way that is the law of the land

    • Tad Davison
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 8:54 am | Permalink

      Well said Mick!

  7. jerry
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 5:29 am | Permalink

    Oh dear, the fact that hard line Brexiteers are opposed to giving the people a direct say in HOW the UK should leave the European Union appears lost to your host, yet he keeps bashing the democracy drum none the less – both sides are as bad as each pother when it comes to giving the electorate a direct say.

    Leave means Leave, indeed, but what did Leave mean, at least 28 different ways to leave that’s what!…

    • MickN
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:13 am | Permalink

      …..and how many ways are there to remain? Can we have a choice on that many times over as well?

      • jerry
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 8:54 pm | Permalink

        @MickN; “how many ways are there to remain?”

        There were 19 “Remain” manifestos, everything from wanting a federated EU to remaining in but reforming the EU from within.

        • APL
          Posted June 16, 2019 at 8:38 am | Permalink

          jerry: “There were 19 “Remain” manifestos, everything from wanting a federated EU to remaining in but reforming the EU from within.”

          None of which were worth the paper they were written on. The EU will decide what it is prepared to concede, and we’ve found that out to be nothing.

          All the remain, and all the Leave were presuming to offer something or other that the EU itself was, nor is prepared to concede.

          All the precious proposals of how we should leave are worthless. I know you won’t take my word for it:

          “EU will not accept à la carte approach – including to single market” –Michel Barnier

          “Theresa May cannot ‘pick and choose’ BREXIT terms’ – Angela Merkel

          “Special deal possible for the UK, but it can’t ‘cherry pick’ the rules’ — Emmanual Macron

          So, you can go on arguing how many people voted for this plan or that exit plan, it is all irrelevant, because those leave proposals were only in the mind of the faction that proposed them, never, ever in the negotiating position of the EU.

          So please Jerry, stop wasting everyone’s time.

          • Edward2
            Posted June 16, 2019 at 10:56 am | Permalink

            Totally correct APL
            Many on both sides of the debate put forward their idea of a best case soft brexit but fail to grasp that the EU are not budging.

          • jerry
            Posted June 16, 2019 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

            @APL; “So please Jerry, stop [stating your opinion]”

            That’s a fine start to the repatriated democracy that Brexiteers demanded, act like Germany in the mid 1930s, silence all opposition or opinion other than your own…

          • APL
            Posted June 17, 2019 at 6:34 am | Permalink

            jerry: “act like Germany in the mid 1930s, silence all opposition or opinion other than your own…”

            I can see you are of the David Lammy school of un-thought. But then, it’s no surprise.

            I’m not telling you to stop stating your opinion ( not too subtle elision of things I didn’t say there, but marks for trying ), I have demonstrated how significant players in the EU have repeatedly told us what they are not prepared to do.

            Nevertheless, the jerry is standing there, fingers in its ears saying ‘la la la LA LA , I’m not listening, you’re literally Hitler’, parroting the left wing drivel we’ve been so accustomed to over the last thirty years.

            jerry, crunch the gears and engage your intellect. Just once?

          • jerry
            Posted June 17, 2019 at 7:02 pm | Permalink

            APL; “crunch the gears and engage your intellect. Just once?”

            Mr Pot, meet Mr Kettle…

    • Fred H
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:15 am | Permalink

      Leave means leave? = lets have another vote to decide if leave also can mean manyana. Cobblers. The people have spoken and want OUT – now! not once the MPs debate every clause for 10 years, and another Mrs May or Bannier obfuscate.

      • jerry
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:10 pm | Permalink

        @Fred H; So you know why 17.4m people cast their votes, what did you do, ask each one personally, how did you find out who voted Leave out of the 33.5m odd people who voted?!… Cobblers, like you did.

        • APL
          Posted June 16, 2019 at 9:01 am | Permalink

          jerry: “So you know why 17.4m people cast their votes ”

          Because each one was asked a simple binary question:

          Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

          Each of the respondents evaluated their no doubt, numerous reasons for wishing to leave or wanting to stay, then came to a conclusion based on aggregate of his or her sometimes conflicting opinions about the alternative option before him or her. Then put his or her “X” in the appropriate box.

          Do you know what is said about some one who asks the same question over and over again, expecting a different answer?

          • jerry
            Posted June 16, 2019 at 9:46 am | Permalink

            @APL; Please try to understand the differences between asking ‘Do you want a cup of Coffee?’ and ‘How do you take your Coffee?’.

            Stop demanding everyone has to drink their Coffee as you do, just because they accepted the offer in the first question – the second follows the first, unless the host has no social (read, democratic) skills what so ever, and yes I have known such hosts, they usual also turn out to be self-obsessed bullies…

          • libertarian
            Posted June 16, 2019 at 12:07 pm | Permalink


            Please understand that if you ask someone Do you want a cup of coffee and they say NO then you dont ask if they want milk and sugar

            What happens AFTER the question has been decided is very open ended , do you want milk, sugar a biscuit, rich tea or bourbon, slice of cake etc etc . Its a series of events starting with the first binary question

            You are completely and utterly wrong about this

          • jerry
            Posted June 17, 2019 at 5:59 am | Permalink

            @Walter; “Please understand that if you ask someone Do you want a cup of coffee and they say NO then you dont ask if they want milk and sugar “

            So the electorate said “NO thanks” to Brexit? Sorry but I thought 17.4m had said Yes Please to Brexit, so it is quite appropriate to follow that with a How do you take your Brexit question…

            Try actually reading what I say, not reply to some willow-the-whip thinking buzzing around your imagination!

            How many times do I have to state that I want a WTO exit, unlike UKIP/TBP who quite like having M€Ps and are doing everything possible to scupper Brexit, I also believe that a WTO exit can be won at the referendum ballot box.

    • Edward2
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:24 am | Permalink

      So how many questions you having on that ballot paper Jerry with your desire to have a referendum on the HOW?
      28 presumably as you keep telling us.
      What a ridiculously impractical idea.
      Oh dear indeed.

      • jerry
        Posted June 16, 2019 at 9:59 am | Permalink

        @Edward2; There can be 12 candidates on a ballot paper in a general or by-election [1], especially in a high profile constituency, are you seriously suggesting such elections are “ridiculously impractical” ideas?!

        There is actually only two options available, due to the EU’s intransigence, reiterated only the other day by the PM of the ROI, so the choice on the ballot paper in my proposed How-to referendum would be between the WA and a WTO exit, two options only, that is why I believe a WTO exit can be won, once the MSM has to give us unbiased coverage (as they do during elections and referenda).

        [1] indeed UKIP gained traction by also being ‘also rans’ on ballot papers, for a long time before they made a break-through

        • Edward2
          Posted June 16, 2019 at 11:02 am | Permalink

          The candidate election isn’t an equivalent to a referendum Jerry.
          You said there were 28 versions of leave and 19 versions of remain and that we need to know what method of leaving (or remaining) people want.
          So your referendum ballot paper must give us all a chance to vote for our favourite of all those versions.
          You may want your question on the ballot paper but there are many others who want many different questions.
          And a majority who do not want another referendum at all.

          • jerry
            Posted June 17, 2019 at 6:09 am | Permalink

            @Edarwd2; I note that you did not bother to reply to the real world facts within my second paragraph, no doubt as it would have spoilt your troll.

            But let’s debate your point none the less, if you are correct then surely the first referendum is void because there were not all those 28 Leave and 19 Remain options on the ballot, dispirited all such groups legally campaigning – so that’s settled, Eddie’s logic [sic] has nailed the problem, the first referendum must be re-run!….

    • graham1946
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:34 am | Permalink

      28 Remain ways to leave – but not leave in reality. Leavers have 2 ways – (1) preferably negotiation, with a Free Trade Deal (which the EU won’t do, having tried to force it’s own agenda on the UK with the connivance of the Maybot) and (2) Leave on WTO terms if not.
      There, that’s not too difficult to understand is it? We are being forced by the EU into (2). Boris will have one more try to get the EU to act sensibly, or we leave anyway we can.

    • Jiminyjim
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:37 am | Permalink

      All you need to do, Jerry, and you have to be honest to do it, is to acknowledge that your ‘Leave’ means ‘Remain’

      • jerry
        Posted June 16, 2019 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

        @Jiminyjim; “acknowledge that your ‘Leave’ means ‘Remain’”

        When has a WTO exit ever been ‘Remain’!

        How many times do I have to state this, I want a WTO exit … unlike UKIPers and TBP members who just pretend they want Brexit, why, because they know once out of the EU bang goes their grandstanding bandwagon of self publicity, the EP with their M€P’s…

    • Duyfken
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:39 am | Permalink

      Whatever way of effecting the referendum result is adopted, that way must achieve the result of the UK leaving the EU. As you say, leave means leave, and it could not be clearer.

    • APL
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:46 am | Permalink

      Jerry: “the fact that hard line Brexiteers are opposed to giving the people a direct say in HOW the UK should leave the European Union appears lost to your host,”

      The British people have already had a say.

      After a General Election, the elected government isn’t paralysed by indecision’. It just goes about implementing the big picture manifesto proposals, once it’s been elected.

      You are wrong too. The withdrawal agreement is Theresa Mays vision of how we should leave ( by staying in, in all but name ). But it’s been rejected by Parliament, is disliked in the country, so people have offered their say on that proposal. See, You are wrong again.

      But your position is in error once more. It takes two to negotiate and the EU has repeatedly said the Withdrawal agreement can not be renegotiated. So any attempts to get this or that aspect of your particular withdrawal plan is doomed to failure.

      Thus we see uncovered your real goal. We can’t get exactly the withdrawal terms this or that faction of the leave voting public wanted, thus we need to stay.

      Jerry is a Remain wolf dressed in a Leave lambs fleece.

      • jerry
        Posted June 16, 2019 at 8:54 am | Permalink

        @APL; We voted to Leave, but we did not vote on HOW we should leave, so please give us a break from your undemocratic assertions, unless you care to cite the official electorate commission figures as to how many of the 17.4m who voted “Leave” voted for Vote Leave, UKIP, Flexcit, GO! Grassroots Out, Trade Unionists Against the EU, Business for Britain, all such groups want the UK to Leave but their views on our post Brexit policies are/were all quite different. Are you seriously suggesting that Trade Unionists wasn’t the same post Brexit polices as Thatcherite Brexiteers, what is more the 2017 GE result reinforced those differences!

        APL is akin to Thomas Hobson, extolling the merits of others democratic ‘free’ choice, just so long as his ‘horse’ always wins…

        What’s the difference between a radical europhile and a radical Brexiteer – nothing – both are willing to trash democracy to obtain their extra-curricular political goals. 🙁

        • jerry
          Posted June 16, 2019 at 10:11 am | Permalink

          @APL; If I was a “Remain wolf dressed in a Leave lambs fleece” I would not be wasting my time here, amongst devout Brexiteers! I would be targeting wavering WA supporters, I would likely have joined the Conservative party, signed up to ConHome and where ever else lots of my target audience hang out.

    • Dave Andrews
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:56 am | Permalink

      Leave meant at least what the government leaflet said, and the remainers are arguing the toss over that.

    • Arthur Wrightiss
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:04 am | Permalink

      Leave means, er…. Leave. Pretty simple really. Not leave means stay.
      Unfortunately the means of leaving was left up to politicians the majority of whom are self serving, devious, anti democratic, lying hypocrites.

      • jerry
        Posted June 16, 2019 at 10:14 am | Permalink

        A cup of Coffee is, err…. Coffee. Pretty simple really. Try telling that to those over priced Coffee shops though…

        • libertarian
          Posted June 16, 2019 at 12:10 pm | Permalink


          Your analogy makes no sense what so ever. Clutching at non plastic straws there

          • jerry
            Posted June 17, 2019 at 6:15 am | Permalink

            @Walter; That reply says more about your ability to understand than it does my logic! But then perhaps had I used a Bourbon analogy you might have understood, nice pre-Sunday lunch tipple was it?…

      • NickC
        Posted June 16, 2019 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

        Arthur Wrightiss, Jerry uses his perennial whine about “How?” to Leave as a pretext to convert Leave into Remain. Nobody is fooled except Jerry. And I’m not sure he even fools himself.

        The important fact is that the Referendum was not a vote for 57 varieties of opinions (and that’s all they were) as he claims, but a choice on a ballot paper of Remain or Leave. Only. With no conditions attached to the Leave option.

        The outcome of our Leave decision must therefore be the UK fully out of the EU. Any rerun, or second referendum, is a fraud, until we have actually left. And then, as Cameron said, the 2016 Referendum is a once in a generation decision.

        • jerry
          Posted June 17, 2019 at 6:19 am | Permalink

          NickC; “the Referendum was not a vote for 57 varieties of opinions”

          Fine, Mrs May has it nailed then, the WA it should be, that is still Brexit, just not how you (nor I) want it, 17.4m voted for it after all….

    • TheMariner
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:12 am | Permalink

      Oh dear, here we go again. Jerry you need to feel what it’s like when you vote for something, you win that vote and then the very people who said they would honour that vote start to renegade on it because they don’t happen to agree.

      Let that happen to you THEN we’ll see how you feel about democracy !!!

      I can tell you it gives you quite a terrible feeling of almost helplessness because it, makes you feel like your vote is worthless. You need to experience that happening to you. I voted leave, nothing else nothing less that was all and expected to leave. No deals, no second votes were mentioned. Parliament has invented all of this to stifle our wishes and prevent Brexit.

      Should they succeed I doubt that I will ever want to vote again. What would be the point. Maybe you can tell me !!!

      • jerry
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:30 pm | Permalink

        You are all gambling everything on Black 13, rather than spreading your bets, meaning that exiting on the WA is even higher – I believe a WTO can be explained (in the MSM, under election laws), you obviously do not – say hello to the WA then, worse than simply Remaining….

        I cam back here to fight for a WTO exit, obviously I’m wrong and wasting g my time!

    • libertarian
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:34 am | Permalink


      Oh dear, you are so dumb that you can’t process a simple fact. You’ve been told so many times.

      The fact that you haven’t got a clue what would be on a fictional referendum paper , you know like the more than 28 ways to take forward our relationship with the EU after exercising the rules of Article 50 which parliament voted in favour of.

      17.4 million people voted to leave. That is democracy . There is only ONE way to leave, what you dribble on about is what happens AFTER we leave

      • hans christian ivers
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 6:10 pm | Permalink


        You would be so much more forceful in your arguments, if you began by no personal attack, but you seem to be a very slow learner on that account.

        I am sure you can do much better?

        • libertarian
          Posted June 16, 2019 at 12:12 pm | Permalink


          Yes because you’ve never been rude to anyone on here… Oh wait , yes you have, You’ve also told outright lies. I’d get your own house in order first as right now you have close to zero credibility

        • NickC
          Posted June 16, 2019 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

          Hans, So calling someone “a slow learner” is not a personal attack in your book??

    • czerwonadupa
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:59 am | Permalink

      The question was In or Out & the people voted out. When India & S Africa got their independence from the Empire they didn’t negotiate what they were or were not allowed to do by the British they just left.

      • jerry
        Posted June 16, 2019 at 10:34 am | Permalink

        @czerwonadupa; Err – never heard of the Commonwealth?!

        What about the fact that the UK often had a MOD presence after independence, either to lend assistance to the new nation or as a negotiated wider defence involvement. Until 1970 many people in countries now independent of the British Empire not only had the right to enter the UK but also had a right to a UK passport, some still do.

        Then of course there is the case of the country that decided to ‘just leave’, when Southern Rhodesia declared their UDI in 1965…

    • formula57
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:37 am | Permalink

      It would have saved time and introduced clarity if the original referendum had added something like: –

      “Although you voted to Leave (cross out any that are inapplicable) –

      x. you really want to Remain

      x. you don’t know what Leave means and would like Remain supporters to define what now happens

      x. you think Leave means Leave but would be quite content to see Leave in name only with all of the disadvantages of Remain and none of the advantages of Leave

      x. you would like the referendum to be re-run every 3 years regardless and agree not to blame others for any corrosive effect upon democracy and the body politic

      Note – voters crossing out all of the above will nonetheless be deemed to agree to the Government taking all measure it feels necessary or desirable (including providing for Remain) to assist the mental health of Remoaner citizens”.

      • jerry
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:37 pm | Permalink

        @formula57; Alternately just list the 28 Leave groups, and the 19 remain groups, ask the voter to tick the one that best expressed the reason for their vote, it would not have changed the legal result but would have been indicative.

        • Edward2
          Posted June 16, 2019 at 8:08 pm | Permalink

          47 choices!
          What if each one gets a single figure percentage vote.
          How is that going to be indicative.

          Or let’s be positive and say one method of leaving gets to be the favourite choice and we go off and tell the EU and they say no way.
          What happens then?

          • jerry
            Posted June 17, 2019 at 6:25 am | Permalink

            Eddie, you have reverted back to trolling, try actually understanding the context to my comment, such as reading the comment from @formula57 as well…

            Perhaps if you did that you would spare our host some of his valuable time?

        • Edward2
          Posted June 17, 2019 at 7:51 pm | Permalink

          Just answer my question.
          Shouting troll is childish jezza
          I love your last bit coming as it does from someone who posts dozens of times a day

          • jerry
            Posted June 18, 2019 at 6:41 am | Permalink

            @Edward2; “Just answer my question.”

            It’s £10 per Lbs, although Un-smoked Haddock is only £4.50 per Lbs. Does that answer your question, ‘Eddie style’?… That old “Two Ronnies” Mastermind sketch (answering the question before last), was funny, your constant attempts at ‘replying to something not said’ is just tiresome…

            Now Edward2, would you be so kind to address the points raised by @formula57 and discussed in my reply to him/her, otherwise perhaps you could find some work to do, the office supplies shelf could do with dusting perhaps?

    • NickC
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:49 am | Permalink

      Jerry, We already had a direct say, and we said we should Leave. All but a few Remains know that means leaving the EU treaties (even TEU Art50 confirms that!). The end result of Leave sees the UK as an independent nation, and outside the EU.

      And there were no conditions attached to the Leave option on the ballot paper. So whether we have a WA (even TEU Art50 allows no WA) or not; whether we have an RTA or not, is irrelevant to our destination – no longer being subject, as a nation, to the EU in any form whatsoever.

      • jerry
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

        @NickC, We have never had a direct say in HOW the UK should leave, just IF the UK should leave, stop abusing the very democracy you say you wish to repatriate to the British electorate (otherwise you are no better than eurocrats), there is no mandate on HOW to leave.

        I can only assume that UKIP/TBP are scared of democracy…

        A50 is irrelevant, Vote Leave made that perfectly clear, “We do not necessarily have to use Article 50 – we may agree with the EU another path that is in both our interests.”

        • NickC
          Posted June 16, 2019 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

          Jerry, TEU Art50 is not “irrelevant” as you claim. That is because Art50 is the route the government chose to extricate us from the EU. And still uses. Actually I advocated not using A50, and have done so since at least 2013.

          It is the “How?” that you keep banging on about that is irrelevant. And pointless. The outcome of the 2016 Referendum must be the UK outside the EU. A “second” referendum (within a generation) would merely legitimise the concept that what the people voted for could be ignored the first time around. That is the EU’s tactic.

          • jerry
            Posted June 17, 2019 at 6:31 am | Permalink

            NickC; “TEU Art50 is not “irrelevant” as you claim.”

            Except I was not making the calm, Vote Leave did (did you not check the URL I posted), so what you are saying NickC, that Vote Leave lied…!

            “The outcome of the 2016 Referendum must be the UK outside the EU”

            Indeed, but then Norway is not in the European Union, so what are you saying NickC, that Mrs May’s WA will be fine, or perhaps you would prefer the Norway model, complete with compliance with the full Schengen Agreement?…

    • Jagman84
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

      “but what did Leave mean, at least 28 different ways to leave that’s what!”

      Only the losers of the referendum say that.

      • jerry
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

        @Jagman84; Wrong, the real losers will be the ones that won a battle but then lost the war, because they started to squabble amongst themselves about their post war spoils rather than carry on fighting…

        You might not believe that a WTO exit can be won at the ballot box but I do. But carry on trashing the very democracy Brexiteers said they wanted to return to the UK electorate, your actions will likely just bring the WA, then a Corbyn govt, or worse, perhaps even a LD lead coalition, with a manifesto pledge to rejoin the EU, and you know what that means, th.

    • mancunius
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

      Only remainers dispute over the 28 different ways of pretending to leave but actually refusing to cut the chains to Brussels.
      Leaver just want us to leave. And that’s what they voted for. Go back and read the ballot paper – it contained no ifs and buts.

      And all the cheery ‘oh dear oh dear’ rhetoric does not wash. It just reinforces the impression of patronising arrogance.

    • agricola
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

      650 seem incapable of deciding HOW, IF or WHEN. So after the leadership election and with a leave PM supported by a leave Cabinet in No 10 they can make the decision and carry it out minus the disparate squabbling MPs. The Luddites have been blocked from a say, but in any case it is within the remit of government to govern.

      It is only possible to ask a binary question in a referendum to achieve a clear result. If you ask people to choose one colour from ten you upset the majority who chose colours other than the 30% who chose red. A totally ridiculous outcome. The electorate gave a clear instruction, LEAVE. Parliament ,government and the civil service being mostly of a remain persuasion deliberately skrewed it up. Parliament woke up after Chequers and voted down the WA three times. They failed to rid themselves of the perpetrator of this con on the electorate until now. So we are where we are with one chance to get it right. We have to wait for a GE to sort out Parliament.

    • Anonymous
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

      The one outlined in the government leaflet sent to every household will do.

      What a sly piece of work you are.

      • jerry
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

        @Anonymous; We had that rant last week, you (and others) lost.

        If 17.4m believed that leaflet Remain would have won as Cameron was backing Remain, recommending acceptance of his ‘renegotiated’ term to the UK’s membership!

        • NickC
          Posted June 16, 2019 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

          Jerry, Don’t be silly – 17.4m people believed the booklet contained Cameron’s opinion, not that they believed the opinion itself.

          • jerry
            Posted June 17, 2019 at 6:36 am | Permalink

            @NickC; So you agree that the vast majority of the 17.4m must have then gone looking for Leave information/options, so once again we are back to which of the 28 Leave manifestos made them vote Brexit. Stop trying to Tango on that pin head!

      • agricola
        Posted June 16, 2019 at 5:10 am | Permalink

        Yes the initial one was clear enough. The one pushing the May line received last week from the con party was pure fanciful bovine scatology.

    • Robert mcdonald
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 2:28 pm | Permalink

      What is “hard line” about demanding the democratic choice of the people in 2016 be implemented. How we leave is simple to all but remainer bigots … we leave. If the eu want a FTA when we leave it is entirely in their hands, but we leave no later, this time, than Oct 31.

    • Andy
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

      And what, pray tell, does Remain mean ????
      We were told that the idea of a European Army was nonsense, nay a ‘dangerous fantasy’ and yet they are setting one up.
      There are 100+ different Remains that’s what !!
      So how legitimate would any vote for Remain be ?????

      • jerry
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

        Andy, thanks, I think you have made my point for me!

        Had Remain won would supporters of the ERG, UKIPers and now TBP accept Euro-federalists claiming a majority for joining the Euro, scrapping our other opt-outs etc, like hell not, they would be screaming from the roof tops that whilst we voted to Remain we only voted to remain in on Cameron’s renegotiated terms….

        • libertarian
          Posted June 16, 2019 at 12:17 pm | Permalink


          Take a deep breath and think about this.

          We voted to leave , that means trigger A50 and leave within 2 years

          Upon leaving a customs union we automatically revert to normal trade practice, because we are full members in our own right this means WTO framework

          Since then our mostly remain backing government , parliament and media have tried every trick in the book to come up with alternative ways of staying in, half staying in or having special ways of partly staying in.

          To pander to that by having another referendum with How do you want to leave as a series of 28 plus questions is playing into their hands . We MUST leave and THEN start looking at ways we might negotiate going forward and that will change over time too

          • jerry
            Posted June 17, 2019 at 6:46 am | Permalink

            @Walter; “Take a deep breath and think about this.”

            Take you own advice, and then actually reply to what I said to @Andy!

  8. Peter Wood
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 5:31 am | Permalink

    Sir John,

    You claim to be an optimist, ignore the doubters and work, along with colleagues, to show us why leaving without the May Treaty is no big issue. This argument must now be made clearly and be accepted by the electorate. We can then leave on 31st Oct. with confidence.

    • czerwonadupa
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:20 am | Permalink

      What do you think the European election results showed how the electorate think with the Brexit Party the clear winner. And we all know what they want.
      How many votes do you need before accepting the results?
      The British horse in spite of having a reluctant jockey has cleared all the hurdles & obstructions put in it’s path by the EU, politicians of all parties & judges on the road to freedom. And now having a fresh jockey on board hopefully will cross the line to freedom, independence & self determination, which even the Polish horse with Wałęsa riding Solidarity managed against the mighty juggernaut called communism

    • mancunius
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

      Parliament has three times rejected the Withdrawal Agreement, and quite right too. Do you not accept Parliament’s verdict?
      The provisions of the Withdrawal Act 2018 are waiting to be enacted by simply leaving. No ‘treaty’ with the EU is needed to do so, as Art. 50 makes clear.
      We need no referendum to confirm the decision of the 2016 referendum, as Leavers have not changed their minds: nor that Parliament legislated correctly in implementing the referendum decision to leave.

      Whether you have confidence or not is fairly irrelevant – we are leaving on 31st October.

  9. GilesB
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 5:31 am | Permalink

    From yesterday

    Posted June 14, 2019 at 8:58 pm | Permalink
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    The 2018 Act may have created a power for a Minister through an SI to vary the exit day in domestic legislation in order to bring that date in domestic legislation in line with the date in an international treaty with the EU.

    However the 2018 Act does not create a power for a Minister to commit to an international treaty or vary the terms of such a treaty.

    • NickC
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:58 am | Permalink

      Giles B, Yes, I saw your comment. And I do hope your opinion is correct. However the point is that MPs passed a law which incorporates a variable “exit day” date. Therefore it can be argued (and will be) that MPs accepted the possibility of an extension to the nominal TEU Art50 limit of two years. And what MPs accept, is the law.

  10. Denis Cooper
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 5:44 am | Permalink

    So allegedly one of Boris Johnson’s supporters has said that he might decide to delay Brexit, and allegedly others are saying that the party members should be shut out of the process of choosing the new party leader and Prime Minister, and while this may be nothing more than mischief-making by people who may not even be Tories it all rings too true.

    • Nigel E
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 12:20 pm | Permalink

      Boris is likely to flip-flop again, I think. He will do what is best for Boris. His track record does not inspire confidence: took too long to decide whether to back remain or leave; took several days to resign after the Chequers meeting whereas DD was immediately; told us how bad the WA was then voted for it in WA3 when May promised to resign the leadership if it passed; now on World at One he begins to move back from leaving on 31st Oct, using weasle words.

      I just hope I’m wrong but I’m betting he’ll go for another extension – and kill the Tory Party.

    • Mitchel
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 12:38 pm | Permalink

      Only too true.Boris J is a Will o’ the Wisp who will resemble a pillow once the Establishment sit on him.

    • Helen Smith
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

      I reckon the Boris bit is the first salvo of the stop Boris campaign by trying to split Brexiteers off. Let’s have a name of the person who alleged this.

  11. Mark B
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 5:51 am | Permalink

    Good morning.


    MP’s need to be reminded that they are OUR elected representatives and not of certain special interest groups etc. They need to be reminded that, they were elected on a party manifesto that made promises and, one of those promises was to to Leave the EU.

    Out means out ! If you cannot deliver then they have no business in the HoC and must leave.

  12. Denis Cooper
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 5:56 am | Permalink

    I would point out that as early as August 2016 the Tory Baroness Wheatcroft was quite open in recommending a strategy to be pursued by Remoaners:

    “She acknowledges her position seems to fly in the face of the democratic result of the referendum to leave the EU but is unapologetic saying the issue is too important to not face full debate.

    She’s hoping time will allow people to contemplate the full consequences of pulling out and is hopeful public and parliamentary opinion will shift.”

    And various members of the Theresa May government have been doing their best to help achieve that desired shift in public and parliamentary opinion.

    • sm
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:48 am | Permalink

      Denis – isn’t it ‘funny’ how dedicated Remainers forget decades of public discussion regarding the wisdom of ever-closer Union with Europe, etc? It’s almost as if Maastricht, Teddy Taylor, Teresa Gorman, Lisbon et al never existed.

    • NickC
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

      Denis Cooper, Fortunately continuity Remain has failed to shift public opinion against Leave. It appears that the two sides are split roughly as they were at the Referendum with only a handful swapping sides. The only light on the horizon is a that a significant number of honourable Remains – whilst not changing their view – accept the democratic result.

  13. LG
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 5:59 am | Permalink

    MP’s broke the law by undermining our constitution and laws. We have left, so how about getting on with this fact instead of still talking about deals and put our country first for a change instead of selling us out to everyone else!

    • Tad Davison
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:11 am | Permalink

      Selling us out is what our MPs do best LG. All parties have a history of it, except now we have a chance to stop them and put an end to their shinanegans. All it takes in the first instance is the election of the right leader, but that naturally precludes the likes of Rory Stewart and Jeremy Hunt – both very much continuity May, who herself was continuity remain Tory duplicity.

  14. Peter
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 5:59 am | Permalink

    This is why we need to drain the swamp.

    • Tad Davison
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:15 am | Permalink

      My thoughts exactly Peter! And it’s one hell of a swamp!

    • Antoinetta III
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

      Draining a swamp takes too long; it gives your adversaries time to organize and resist.

      No, this has to be a case of – Flush the toilet.

      Antoinetta III

  15. Bryan Harris
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 6:06 am | Permalink

    Well said – that echoes a great deal of opinion, ‘on the streets’

    This attitude from remainers comes directly from Brussels – so many have picked up on the way that the EU is run and emulate the EU elite. Democracy, like nation states, are words to be banded about to suit their purpose.

    The remainers cannot be allowed to win – just imagine how much worse the deceit and mistrust will get otherwise…

    • Dominic
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:22 am | Permalink

      ‘The remainers cannot be allowed to win – just imagine how much worse the deceit and mistrust will get otherwise’…

      Never a truer sentence was noted and one that should send a shiver down the spines of all freedom loving British people.

      Parliament and State must be made accountable but achieving this is going to be almost impossible without breaking the two party grip that still asserts so much influence

      The success or otherwise of the Brexit Party could determine the future direction of British politics

    • NickC
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 12:09 pm | Permalink

      Bryan Harris, The EU tends to corrupt everything it touches. The EU is essentially a “rent seeker” creating wealth and power for itself by centralising what independent nations could do for themselves. Or, as Nigel Farage less elegantly put it, the EU is a mafia style protection racket.

      • hans christian ivers
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 7:28 pm | Permalink


        Very interesting perspective on the EU.

        Can I recommend reading a bit more about contemporary European history after 1953?

        • libertarian
          Posted June 16, 2019 at 12:22 pm | Permalink


          Rather than your rude , meaningless , pompous posts how about just once providing some evidence for the stuff you spout

          Come on tell us one fact , one thing that the EU has done that couldn’t be done at national level , without them

      • margaret howard
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:48 pm | Permalink


        “The EU tends to corrupt everything it touches.”

        Makes you wonder then why we begged to join it. The reality is of course that we were broke and the EU helped us become the world’s 5th biggest economy. So you now accuse us oldies who were overjoyed when we became members and voted overwhelmingly in the 1975 referendum to remain, as being guilty of becoming mafiosi.

        Oh and in 2012, the EU was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. Because of its global influence, it has has been described as a current or as a potential superpower.

        Amazing the honours the world bestows these days on racketeers!

        • libertarian
          Posted June 16, 2019 at 12:20 pm | Permalink


          How many more times do you need to be told the facts?

          We were the worlds THIRD largest economy prior to joining , AFTER we joined our currency collapsed and we had to be bailed out by the IMF

          My goodness remainers are fact free propagandists

          The world always bestows honours on racketeers , the corrupt and the machiavellian

          • libertarian
            Posted June 16, 2019 at 12:24 pm | Permalink


            ps the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to a politician just for gaining office, who then bombed the beejazuz out of people in the middle east and continue torture people held in his prison camp

            I think that kind of proves the level of corruption amongst the establishment

        • NickC
          Posted June 16, 2019 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

          Margaret Howard, The UK was already the world’s 5th biggest economy when we joined the EEC. You’ve spent months purveying the porky that “the EU helped us become the world’s 5th biggest economy” – despite being told dozens of times your view was fake. That makes you a troll.

        • APL
          Posted June 16, 2019 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

          margaret howard: “Amazing the honours the world bestows these days on racketeers!”

          Yea, well. The Nobel committee did award President Obama for getting elected, so I think it fair to value the Nobel Peace prize at virtually zero after 2009.

      • Bryan Harris
        Posted June 16, 2019 at 6:08 am | Permalink

        @NickC – You are of course right – The amount of corruption in the EU is beyond even what the EUC expect and they control most of it… But the point is that as they are not held to account, the EU elite can get away with squandering our money, bullying their way through negotiations, and being blind to other opinions -Is it any wonder that other governments have copied their underhand methods….

  16. Ken Barron
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 6:15 am | Permalink

    Parliament is sovereign. The people are not. Rule one – and the only rule – of the British constitution. You want to change centuries of tradition? Fine, but get out of my Conservative Party. You are not a conservative, you are a wrecker and a revolutionary

    • Steve
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 8:58 am | Permalink

      Ken Barron

      “Parliament is sovereign. The people are not.”

      Not necessarily……Britons are subjects of crown and Realm.

    • Tad Davison
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:28 am | Permalink

      Your Conservative party? How arrogant is that!

      I thought the members largely determined the party’s direction. I bet there are more Conservative party members who support Sir John’s Brexit position than that espoused remainers!

      You should be thankful. Sir John and his fellow Brexiteers are about to deliver the Conservaive party from the total oblivion brought about by years of remainer treachery. It’s the remainers who have brought about this site situation and should hold their heads in shame if not clear off altogether and allow it to be what it should have been all along, a party that works for the people, not some alien political construct!

    • David Maples
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:13 am | Permalink

      WRONG! Parliament is not sovereign, rather the ‘Queen In Parliament’ is sovereign. If you had ever been in one of my classes, you would have learnt that; you need to read constitutional history, and not make it up as you go along! Government and Parliament are inseparable. The last time Parliament defied government occurred when the Commons refused Charles I’s request for Ship Money, which led to the first and second civil wars, and ended on January 30 at 12pm, when the King’s head was severed from his diminutive body.

      We do not want this to happen again. Parliament can disagree with the ‘King’, but legally and constitutionally, there are well established standing orders describing what backbenchers are legitimately permitted to do.

      • Ken Barron
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

        Parliament defied government three times in the last 6 months, over Mrs May’s deal!

    • formula57
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:41 am | Permalink

      @ Ken Barron – And from whence does Parliament get its legitimacy? It is not a body imposed upon the people.

    • rhoda klapp
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:50 am | Permalink

      The people are indeed sovereign.

    • NickC
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 12:13 pm | Permalink

      Ken Barron, Wrong. In a democracy the people are sovereign. That’s what the word means – demos = people, kratos = power. MPs only ever get to Parliament because they have been voted there by their constituents.

    • Jenny murray
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

      That’s where you are wrong! The MPs are our employees & the people of the nation state are sovereign! By electing these MPs we entrust them to carry out the will of the PEOPLE, not their own self interests! This is where they are going wron & the sooner politics is changed the better!

      • hefner
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 4:03 pm | Permalink

        “By electing these MPs we entrust them to carry out the will of the PEOPLE”, except that it is as they interpret it. How do you explain that in a country where according to a recent poll more than 75% of PEOPLE would want a change in the “Right to Die”, MPs including Sir John continue to systematically prevent the question from being properly addressed and voted on. And interestingly that is a non-partisan question, every MP should be free to vote according to their conscience. … MPs are representatives not delegates of the PEOPLE … The will of the PEOPLE, my foot!

        • NickC
          Posted June 16, 2019 at 3:03 pm | Permalink

          Hefner, Except in the case of a specific Referendum mandate.

      • APL
        Posted June 16, 2019 at 10:07 pm | Permalink

        Jenny murray: “The MPs are our employees ..”

        Then we are paying them far too much.

    • Helen Smith
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

      The sovereign parliament gave the decision to the people in this instance. We said Leave so Leave it must be.

    • Jagman84
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

      Get all of the Socialists and Lib Dems out of it as well and we may humour you….

      Parliament is indeed Sovereign, via the election of representatives by eligible members of the UK population. However, due to an impasse in the HoC, MPs decided to delegate that Sovereignty to the people in a Referendum on EU membership. It is entirely reasonable to expect them to abide by the decision of the electorate. The current problems are of their own making. If they enact the ‘People’s vote’, they can have their Sovereignty back in it’s entirety and we can wreak our retribution on them at the next GE.

    • Anonymous
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 2:30 pm | Permalink

      Carry on losing votes then, Ken.

      I and millions of others have decided that the Conservative Party is not *my* Conservative Party either.

      At least have the honesty to call yourselves The Liberal Party.

    • Robert mcdonald
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

      Parliament is sovereign, so when it voted to hold a referendum from which it was promised the peoples decision would be implemented, why did it not do what it voted it would do ? It’s only sovereign when it suits them .. the establishment .. it would seem.

    • mancunius
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 2:37 pm | Permalink

      In truth Parliament has any and all its sovereignty only from the people.
      You’re the one who wants to takje the revolutionary and destructive step of overturning the people’s democratic decision to leave the EU. You talk about ‘your party’ blithely indifferent to the true opinion of the Conservative Party – i.e. of its members.
      You should really have addressed your remarks about sovereignty to David Cameron, the Prime Minister who called the referendum in 2016, assuring the country that whatever decision the people made would definitely be implemented.
      You should also have addressed them to the Commons and Lords who passed the 2015 Referendum Act, handing the decision to the people.
      And now, in desperation, the sly anti-democratic remainers in parliament want once again to call a referendum in the vain hope it will this time support them.

    • Eh?
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

      You may be right about Parliament being sovereign and not The People. We should however note that recently ‘the people’ has acquired in some quarters capital letters of T and P. It is a small change, admittedly.

    • L Jones
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

      Ah! A remainer! Know how we can tell?
      Never a comment without an insult. How shallow and small-minded you people are.

  17. Mike Stallard
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 6:16 am | Permalink

    Why are we determined to leave the EU?

    The EU is deliberately going in the opposite direction. It was founded by Monnet in the 1930s to prevent another war between France and Germany. From the off it was deliberately undemocratic. The German people had, after all, elected Hitler. The legal system was – is – Napoleonic with Judges sitting in judgement, not juries. The economy is French dirigisme – an elite says what is acceptable and unacceptable. It didn;t work then and it doesn’t work now. Italy, to take just one example of many, is on the brink – again.

    We Brits are being corrupted by this. That is why we need to leave: to be ourselves. It will not be easy and it will demand a change of attitude in parliament and in the law courts and in our economy. We may well be poorer too.

    Pretending otherwise is not going to work: we just have to face it: we need to leave.

  18. agricola
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 6:22 am | Permalink

    Remainers like Grieve are engineers of their own demise as MPs. He for one has already been deselected by his constituency party. More will follow. Those that left with Soubry are already in disarray and on the move.

    No doubt this coven of legal gymnasts will continue to plot to no avail.

    I have taken the liberty of writing to Boris to offer him a route through most of the detritus that has arisen in the Brexit process. I hope he makes it to No 10 and gets us there. Most of the other contenders would seem to be bending to please all factions. A weakness in any leadership they might offer.

  19. Anonymous
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 6:25 am | Permalink

    Surely we would have been in a better situation by now if we had just left as promised ?

    Instead of a catastrophic ending we now have a never ending catastrophe.

    With the Jo Brand (aka BBC) incitement to violence I am more entrenched than ever. I’m sure others on the leave side now feel the same.

    Imagine if Jim Davidson had said exactly the same of Gina Miller as Brand has said of Farage and one other.

    • rose
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:39 am | Permalink

      A man was sent to prison for saying disobliging things about Gina Miller.

      • rose
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:44 am | Permalink

        Lord Neuberger also made an unprofesssional display of his solicitous concern for Gina Miller at the start of the hearing on the Miller case. He never gave any sign of being concerned about what was happening to Brexiteers, in particular what was happening to Farage and his family.

  20. Denis Cooper
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 6:29 am | Permalink

    Philip Hammond says that he would not serve in a cabinet which was prepared to see the UK leave the EU without an Article 50 withdrawal agreement:

    Good riddance, he should never have been allowed into a position where he could follow the lead of George Osborne and spread lies about the economic impact of defaulting to the existing WTO treaties for our trade with the EU.

    Why is that the German government expects only a modest impact for the UK:

    with Ireland the hardest hit, a potential 8% loss of GDP, while the UK government has been feeding the opposite story to domestic opponents of Brexit?

    Could the answer be that with a population much more supportive of the EU project the German government does not feel the same need to lie as the UK government?

    • NickC
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

      Denis Cooper, Indeed, it has been a characteristic throughout our long years of subservience to the EU – from Heath to Cameron – that our establishment has lied to us about it. Interestingly it means they really have known, or suspected, we would have rejected the EU (EEC) from the start, if we had been told the truth. It also means that continentals are more accepting of dirigiste dictatorship than we are.

      • hefner
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

        “Continentals are more accepting of dirigiste dictatorship than we are”. What a laugh, we have been stuck with what is basically a two-party (and some tiny bits) for decades.
        Have you ever considered how many more changes have been happening in the parliamentary structure of most continental European countries?
        Sorry to say but that is typical British blindness, we are the best (as repeated several times a week by all politicians, media, etc), all the others have “inferior” systems. As long as we are not able to even look at and possibly learn from what happens elsewhere, not only countries of continental Europe, but also other English-speaking countries, we won’t be able to move on on that topics.
        Anyway, I don’t expect much from this assembly here.

        • NickC
          Posted June 16, 2019 at 3:07 pm | Permalink

          Hefner, I explicitly referred to the EU, not “continental European countries”. It is a fact that we have rejected the EU, continentals (ie people) have not. Yet.

      • Andy
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 7:49 pm | Permalink

        That is the nub of it, but it is really because a different mindset pertains in the UK. If the political class had told the truth all the way back to McMillan the people would never have accepted it as they well knew. Peter Shore, Tony Benn, Enoch Powell etc all warned against the ‘project’ and where it was inexorably leading. I value our Liberty, our Common Law and our Parliamentary Democracy far too much to have any truck with the EU.

    • |John O'Leary
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 3:15 pm | Permalink

      One slight problem with that! Although we have been long term members of the WTO we do not have approved arrangements with regard to tariff schedules etc. We currently adhere to those negotiated by the EU on our behalf.

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

        I think you will find that we now have our own WTO schedules worked out, certainly JR asked for them to be published long ago. I do not assume that countries which have been trading happily with us while we are in the EU are going to want that trade to suddenly cease because we have left the EU.

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

        There was a long discussion around this nearly a year ago, starting with this comment from Caterpillar:

        “Reply to JR’s Reply,

        Does the UK have a new tariff schedule ready given the WTO (so called no deal) scenario occurring? Can we see it?”

        Some way down there is a comment that I made, starting:

        “You could also ask whether the EU has a tariff schedule, and as of two years ago apparently the answer was that it had a schedule, but one that had never been updated since 2004 the EU had only 15 member states … ”

        “But it has to be asked how much any of this matters in practice; if countries around the world have been willing to trade with the UK under WTO terms for as long as 14 years even though the EU’s WTO schedules were outdated, why should they start suddenly and belatedly become obstructive when the UK leaves the EU? Will they decide to make a disproportionate fuss about it just because EU loyalists in the UK would like them to do that? Well, maybe, or maybe they would prefer to just smooth it over, in much the same way as the incomplete ratification of the protocol for Croatia to join the EEA is still being smoothed over after more than four years … ”

        To which acorn replied that the EU was even then in the process of updating its schedules, which led to this reply:

        “Thanks for that update. Of course it does not alter the point that the EU itself has had no WTO proper schedules for 14 years now but as far we know that has not been allowed to interfere with trade, or had even provoked any noticeable level of outrage from its trading partners.”

  21. George Brooks
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 6:36 am | Permalink

    One can be polite and understanding and say that this group of MPs regretfully still cannot accept the result of the referendum.

    More accurately they are an EU ”fifth column” determined to undermine democracy in this country. A bunch of ”quislings” that need to be de-selected by their constituencies at the next election

    • Fred H
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:21 am | Permalink

      Some days ago I thought these views were rather extreme, but on each passing situation it is becoming clearer that may be the truth.

    • Tad Davison
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:09 am | Permalink

      Very much looking forward to it, and once the leadership election is out of the way, the process to remove these people should go on apace.

    • margaret howard
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:47 am | Permalink

      Democracy? Setting one half of the country against the other?

      The old against the young? The educated against the uneducated?


      • libertarian
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 5:56 pm | Permalink


        Oh dear have you never noticed this before? That normally most voting is split fairly evenly. You know left v right , uneducated…. lol You mean lots of us didn’t pass a test set by the same people that passed the last test. You confuse education with academic cobblers . Its why Remainers dont have any arguments for staying in, they cant think differently

      • Fred H
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 8:07 pm | Permalink

        oh! Margaret you really are a misery. I recommend a G&T , do some knitting and stop reading the Grauniad. It really does you no good at all. What makes you believe the old are against the young? You did express it that way. Every generation has a problem with the views of youth appearing at odds with the older and wiser! Quelle surprise!. And as for educated against uneducated, I think the so called cleverer and more intelligent in Westminster have demonstrated that they do not believe the people should be trusted with a VOTE, yet in fact the people no longer trust the Westminster ones at ALL.
        Blame our desire to leave the EU? Or is it that you simply cannot get over the fact you lost a vote?

  22. Hope
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 6:40 am | Permalink

    Not just remainers Maurdant is not blessed with intellect. How anyone supports continuity Mayhab under Hunt needs their head examined if they think it will wash with the public. Nor will tweaking the servitude plan. People are aware of its dangers and do not understand why Mayhab and cabinet would agree to it! Fox, Leadsome and Maurdant are stained. Gove is a remainer and was used to bring Johnson down.

    Your party still does not get it. They the servitude plan tweaked will be accepted. A leaver needs to be PM, not Hunt or other remainers. He said originally he would not leave in October. What does the EU make of that compared to his latest changed view? Negotiator my arse.

    • graham1946
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:49 am | Permalink

      No serving Cabinet Minister should be considered. They are all responsible under collective responsibility for the sellout WA. If they disagreed they could resign, but didn’t. Hunt is not suitable – he was a poor Health Secretary, presiding over several hospital scandals and managing decline of the NHS bringing it to its present parlous state.

  23. J Bush
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 6:47 am | Permalink

    On a related matter when they talk about parliamentary sovereignty. It would appear they cannot accept this sovereignty actually comes from the people who elect them as their parliamentary representatives. They also give the impression they think the electorate voted to have their right to self determination removed and actually voted for a control freakery dictatorship.

    They have also claimed the people got it wrong, didn’t know what they voted for and a further vote is required. Play devils advocate, then on that basis I think another general election is required, as the electorate got it wrong last time, as I suspect many didn’t vote for this either.

    • J Bush
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 6:50 am | Permalink

      A summary of the above, I think the remainers are sore losers and throw toys out of the pram when they can’t their own way.

  24. Steve
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 6:48 am | Permalink


    Re your last two paragraphs, yes a very accurate analysis indeed, and one that perfectly describes the remainer mindset.

    Vince Cable, for example fits this category to a tee.

    These people are highly dangerous – the type who, by peddling the stupid belief that Europe is our friend and partner, could if they had their way see this country in thrall to our historical enemies, unable to defend ourselves, unable to trade with whom we choose and so on. Vassalage, basically, if these liberal idiots are not stopped.

    Their presence, and word, outside the Westminster bubble are thankfully seen as truly offensive by anyone with a sense of democracy.

    The purple you describe, JR, represent what is rotten about the system in this country.

  25. Nigl
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 6:48 am | Permalink

    Ah, but as Penny Mordaunt became the latest high profile politician to brand it populism, it doesn’t count.

    Populism if they don’t agree with something. Democracy if they do.

    Shows their arrogance and contempt for the voter.

  26. Andy
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 6:58 am | Permalink

    What a completely ridiculous post.

    Despite have sincere misgivings about your Brexit most MPs voted to trigger article 50.

    Many voted for the withdrawal agreement – which you need to sign to get your Brexit.

    You were one of the ones that refused. ‘It’s not leaving,’ Brexiteers whine. None can ever explain what leaving means.

    Frankly your arguments are tiresome. You have spectacularly failed to deliver Brexit on the terms you all promised in 2016. Brexiteers are entirely responsible for defrauding the public, and poisoning our politics.

    You now claim to have a mandate to speak for everyone – even though almost half the country specifically rejected your Brexit, millions were denied a say and your promises have all been disproven anyway.

    Perhaps Brexiteers should try engaging with reality?

    • Nig l
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 8:34 am | Permalink

      Andy. If it is so tiresome maybe you should have a rest. Please.

    • MickN
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:18 am | Permalink

      Thanks for your contribution Mr Verhofstat.

    • Fred H
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:24 am | Permalink

      Andy….You should write smaller entries, the warder might check what you are doing with that tablet and take it away, leaving you with just that old Beano.

    • Dominic
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:26 am | Permalink

      52% v 48%.

      This statistic should be tattooed onto you forehead

      • Andy
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

        You’re the one pretending it was 100% – 0%. I’m not.

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:25 am | Permalink

      Andy, perhaps you should try finding the other brain cell to keep the one you’ve got company.

      • hans christian ivers
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 7:30 pm | Permalink


        What this sort of argument really necessary?

        • Fedupsoutherner
          Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

          Was yours?

      • margaret howard
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:07 pm | Permalink


        I hope you don’t mind me reminding you that 70% of voters whose educational attainment is only GCSE or lower voted to Leave, while 68% of voters with a university degree voted to Remain.

        • Edward2
          Posted June 16, 2019 at 7:31 am | Permalink

          Apart from being a sneering snobby comment what relevance to the debate on leaving the EU is this post of yours margaret?
          Other than reinforcing my belief that the liberal left elite hold everyone else in contempt.

          • L Jones
            Posted June 16, 2019 at 12:43 pm | Permalink

            But they’re not ”ELITE”!! Anything but, as Ms Howard’s words, attitude and lack of cogent argument so amply illustrate.

            ”Elite – a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group”. See?

            If Ms Howard would read other people’s posts on this blog she would soon recognise that she is completely outclassed in the ”education” department!

            You can always tell a remainer, but you can’t tell ’em much.

          • APL
            Posted June 17, 2019 at 6:48 am | Permalink

            L Jones: “Ms Howard’s words, attitude and lack of cogent argument so amply illustrate.”

            And of course a Remainer with, no doubt a lot of credentials, margaret howard does herself a disservice spouting the easily refuted un-truths she frequently does.

        • David Price
          Posted June 16, 2019 at 8:59 am | Permalink

          MH – An unsubstantiated and incorrect assertion.

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:29 am | Permalink

      Leavers know what leave is and understand what it entails. It is remainders in Parliament and people like yourself that have prevented it happening. I am amazed that for someone that considers himself to be so intelligent you can’t seem to understand Johns posts or the simple fact that we should have left in March but are still in because of lefty idiots that want to remain.

    • libertarian
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:36 am | Permalink


      The reality is we leave end of October, we dont need to sign anything or pay anything.

      You are right our Remain parliament has failed to deliver. They will be removed from office

    • Robbo
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:53 am | Permalink

      “None can ever explain what leaving means”
      ‘Leaving’ means leaving the Customs Union, leaving the Single Market, Common Agricultural Policy, Common Fisheries Policy and other EU Common Policies, and leaving the juristiction of the ECJ, as was explained in the UK government leaflet intended to scare the voters into Remaining. Clear now?

      • Andy
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 4:27 pm | Permalink

        Mrs May’s deal does all that. But apparently many of you think it is not leaving.

        • Richard1
          Posted June 15, 2019 at 7:56 pm | Permalink

          It does not. It means permanent CU membership and effective SM membership over many areas unless NI is surrendered against the wishes of its people.

        • Fred H
          Posted June 15, 2019 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

          oh dear, oh dear. So now you are happy with leaving the way you think the WA is?

      • L Jones
        Posted June 16, 2019 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

        It’s because, Robbo, they didn’t bother to read the pre-referendum £9 million leaflet. What a waste of public money that turned out to be! It seems that no remainer took heed of it.

    • Richard1
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:10 am | Permalink

      The honourable opponents of Brexit in the HoC are those like Ken Clarke who opposed the referendum in the first place, opposed triggering article 50, and made clear their opposition to Brexit at the 2017 election. No-one who thinks Brexit is the disaster continuity remain claim should have voted for the referendum in the first place (George Osborne eg, and practically the whole of the Labour Party). MPs who voted for the referendum, voted for article 50, stood at the 17 election saying they would implement Brexit, but now do everything they can to thwart it, are humbugs. The public can see it and are likely to vote accordingly.

    • NickC
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

      Andy, Frankly your arguments are tiresome. Under the terms of the EU Referendum Act 2015, Leave won. Remain accepted the legality of that Act before the vote. You only whinge about it now because you lost.

      Leave means leaving the EU treaties – as even TEU Art50 confirms. As you have been told many times. Consequently Leave means being as independent of the EU as New Zealand, or India. Is that so difficult for even you to understand?

      It is perfectly possible to leave the EU without a Withdrawal Agreement – as, again, even TEU Art50 confirms. What are you doing to yourself, that your opinions are based on not even reading the laws you are supposedly arguing about?

    • agricola
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

      How refreshing it is to identify someone from the dark side of the moon, and the having heard their views on life expressed, thank god we don’t live there.

    • Anonymous
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

      The only thing being Changed about Change UK is CHANGE UK !

      The one single issue party dedicated to cancelling Brexit has disappeared in a puff of smoke – the rejection by the electorate couldn’t be clearer, not to mention the 63% who stayed at home and didn’t vote to revoke Art 50.

    • Robert mcdonald
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

      Good heavens, what cant. Look up the dictionary if you don’t know what leaving means.

    • mancunius
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

      Yaaaawn. Ignore.

    • old salt
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

      Virtually two thirds voted OUT by constituency.
      Democracy = losers consent!

      • Andy
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

        You do not know this – as, with few exceptions, the referendum was not conducted or counted on a constituency basis.

  27. Brian Tomkinson
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 7:00 am | Permalink

    Most MPs behave like disciples of the EU and care more for their masters in Brussels than the people of the UK whom they are meant to represent. Their anti democratic instincts are completely in tune with those of the EU. Our democracy is under siege by the very people elected to uphold and sustain it. They have shown contempt for the people and the referendum result that they legislated to hold. Parliament voted to trigger Article 50 which meant leaving on WTO terms as the legal default position. Again they have and still try to ignore the result of their own actions. They have forfeited the trust of the British people and for some considerable time now it has been clear that Parliament is against the people. They must not succeed.

    • NickC
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 12:44 pm | Permalink

      Brian Tomkinson, Exactly right in every respect.

    • Doug Powell
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

      Quite right! I always say to remoaners, ‘ If the EU is so bloody wonderful, and the UK so bloody awful, why don’t you go and live there? You have 27 countries flowing with milk and honey to choose from!’ Somehow they always fail to take the logical step! Whereas, the leavers, we want to live here!

      • L Jones
        Posted June 16, 2019 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

        Spot on, Mr Powell.
        I have asked many remainers the question: why remain in the EU? One frequent answer is something vague about ”freedom of movement” – which they seem to think it means being able to go abroad on holiday whenever they want!! I think they’d have a real problem with the idea of actually LIVING there!
        Far from ‘Leavers’ being the uneducated ones, it becomes more apparent that it is the Remainers (other than those in self-serving Europhile positions in the City) who are generally of limited vision, imagination and possibly with a lower level of education.

  28. Sir Joe Soap
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 7:03 am | Permalink

    Good reason to let the Brexit Party loose.
    Unfortunately you Remain part of the problem party, not the solution one.

  29. steadyeddie
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 7:04 am | Permalink

    The issue is not In or Out but what is right for the country and there are a number of views on this. They are being debated in Parliament which is the appropriate forum. If we elected a Labour government would you say the people have spoken and no one should dissent from this. Democracy is a process not an event.

    • Steve
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:02 am | Permalink


      “The issue is not In or Out but what is right for the country”

      I have to disagree there, Eddie. The issue IS what we voted for must be respected i.e. leave and without ‘deals’.

    • Fred H
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:29 am | Permalink

      steady ….you lost me somewhere. The issue is precisely In or Out. Do I have to remind you the people voted OUT. You are wrong, democracy is both one, and a series of events at the behest of the majority, which evaluated over a series, usually time, forms a code of behaviour that stands the test of time and principle. Dissent does not mean overthrow. Else why have a rule of law?

    • NickC
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 12:54 pm | Permalink

      Steadyeddie, Dissenting is not the same as preventing. We had a democratic national vote, the options were clear, we voted Out. So stop preventing the implementation of Out. The issue is In or Out, precisely because Leaves regard Out as best for our nation. How can it be best for our nation to cease to exist? – which is what would happen in a few years if we continued under the EU yoke.

    • Andy
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

      Very true. The country which gave Thatcher a landslide in 1987 gave Blair a landslide 10 years later.

      If you listen to the Brexiteers they will tell you that this should not have happened because nobody is ever allowed to change their minds.

      The reality is that Brexiteers did not expect to win. They had no plan. They still have no plan.

      And when they are asked how they will deal with the numerous problems their Brexit creates they cannot answer. Instead they shout at people asking the questions, they rant about democracy, use words like Remoaner and traitor and insult the BBC or civil service or judges or whoever else they like.

      All the Brexiteers ever had to do was deliver what they promised in 2016 – which was a cost free Brexit, with all of the benefits of EU membership but without any of the responsibilities. This is what they said in 2016. Why have they not done it?

      Why have you not done it Mr Redwood? Your party is in government. Mrs May has been desperate for you all to do what you said you would. Why have you failed?

      Reply I did set out a clear plan for Brexit and never suggested we kept the alleged benefits of membership as I want to leave

    • mancunius
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

      Of course the issue is In or Out. And it has now been settled.
      “If we elected a Labour government would you say the people have spoken and no one should dissent from this.”
      If the people were to elect a Labour government at a General Election then by definition it is elected. Nobody gets to argue in favour of ‘remaining’ under the previous government because they don’t like the democratic result and want a reactionary ‘process’ to contradict it.

  30. Kevin
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 7:06 am | Permalink

    They are turkeys, and we voted for Christmas. I would not expect them to
    offer themselves up to a public hungry for democratic accountability. At the
    moment, the Peterborough election result shows the Brexit Party as having the
    most chance of making Brexit mean Brexit. Mr. Johnson may talk the talk,
    yet I suspect he will see himself as having a mandate to govern “as he sees fit”.

    • margaret howard
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:51 am | Permalink

      If the Brexit party couldn’t win in Brexit Central Peterborough they will be like UKIP soon – an unpleasant memory.

      • Dave Andrews
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 3:52 pm | Permalink

        The Peterborough result should make people take notice. The Brexit Party didn’t win, even though the polls said they would do so comfortably. It just goes to show that polls only record the views of those motivated to answer them.
        Labour won because despite the media obsession with Brexit, the general public largely have other priorities.
        I think the main enemy of the Brexit Party is themselves – all those egos in one confined space might well descend into disagreement. If they stick around to the next election (assuming the EU/UK continue to kick the can down the road), they may well pare away votes from mainly conservatives. Labour might also leak votes to the LibDems, so we might not necessarily get a Corbyn government, just another hung parliament. The Brexit Party could well not take any seats at all.

      • Fred H
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

        UKIP sowed the seeds of justice, the baton was passed to BREXIT party to save this country from the future horrors of a EU dictatorship. Fond memories.

    • Richard1
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:26 am | Permalink

      No, what the Peterborough by-election showed is that the Brexit party will enable appalling far left candidates of corbyns Labour Party to squeak through on a very small vote. That is most likely to mean no Brexit – although that will be a minor consideration besides the other calamities of a Corbyn govt.

      • Simeon
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 6:45 pm | Permalink

        The Brexit party garnered more votes than the Conservative party. It was votes for the latter that allowed Labour through the middle, one could argue. The Brexit party is far from perfect, but if a proper Brexit is what you want, it’s much the best option – and perhaps the only one.

    • mancunius
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 2:59 pm | Permalink

      BJ in particular has made a journalistic and political career out of being able at a whim to to make a case for both sides of any argument: a facility any member of an Oxbridge Debating Society takes pride in. Most people when they grow up and engage in life’s struggle start to take a more seriously passionate and committed view. BJ seems not to have reached that stage.

  31. Sir Joe Soap
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 7:08 am | Permalink

    Now the NHS can’t kill us off with bad organisation kills us with Listeria filled sandwiches. All the time your supposed health minister trying to tell us he’s the future. Great.

    • mancunius
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 3:02 pm | Permalink

      Having recently had a stay in an NHS hospital ward, I can reassure everyone that the food proved so comprehensively inedible as to minimise any such health risk.

  32. Noneoftheabove
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 7:13 am | Permalink

    Nicely put Sir John, I agree with every word.
    Unfortunately, the only way of obtaining a Parliament that the people deserve is to hold a General Election.

    • old salt
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 3:22 pm | Permalink

      We could be presented with Remain leaning candidates in a FPTP system.

  33. Damore
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 7:17 am | Permalink

    You say- clearly as they see it Parliament did not understand the question- but this is only partly correct- clearly the people as a whole did not understand the question- and now that we have had the debate and the people are informed it’s surely time the people decided- the 2016 referendum hardly counts as nobody really understood any of the implications- might as well have asked a crowd of schoolyard kids should we raise the interest rates.

    • piglet
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:53 am | Permalink

      @Damore – “the 2016 referendum hardly counts as nobody really understood any of the implications”

      What utter tosh. The implications of leaving were discussed endlessly during the campaign. The dog’s breakfast that the British Govt made of the negotiations which resulted in the toxic Withdrawal Treaty does not, in itself, prove that leaving is nuanced and difficult; it just proves that they made a dog’s breakfast of it! This is because they did not really want to leave and tried to construct a version of leaving that was not really leaving at all. It did not have to be like this.

      To use this chain of subsequent events as an argument to support your contention that “the 2016 referendum hardly counts” is pure sophistry and something we only ever hear from people unaccustomed to not getting their way. Such people will always try to justify their self-righteousness (“clearly the people as a whole did not understand the question”) with convoluted and circular arguments … they are just Bad Losers. Your contribution above is a written manifestation of the truth of John’s article today.

    • graham1946
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:04 am | Permalink

      Apparently these days we take notice of a crowd of schoolyard kids on ‘global warming’ .
      The only problem with the referendum result was not the ‘understanding of leave’, but allowing Remainers to deliberately and incompetently ‘negotiate’ . Why should ‘leave’ be lost because they cocked it up as they intended, hoping it would all be too complicated and people would become fed up?

    • NickC
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 1:02 pm | Permalink

      Damore, Are you a Remain parody account? Yes I did understand the question. And now we are better informed about your views, we can see that your opinion hardly counts because you self evidently understood neither the question nor how democracy works.

    • Jenny murray
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

      I am sick & tired of people like you who say we the people did not know what we voted for! The MPs knew what we voted for, but the majority decide it wasn’t in THEIR interests to give us that! On such an important decision, please give the people the honour of having brains, who like me, have researched this & gone deeply into the evils of the EU dictatorship, so do NOT tell me I did not know what I was voting for! Their is elitist ignorance at its best, & we the people are absolutely sick of it!

      • margaret howard
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

        “who like me, have researched this & gone deeply into the evils of the EU dictatorship, ”

        Reading the likes of the Daily Mail or Daily Telegraph is NOT researching!

        In 2012 the EU was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. They are not known to give their highest awards to dictatorships.

        • Fred H
          Posted June 16, 2019 at 10:36 am | Permalink

          margaret ….but in their brilliant judgement they also gave one to Barack Obama ……my case rests m’Lord.

        • L Jones
          Posted June 16, 2019 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

          What arrogant, disrespectful, pretentious tosh, Ms Howard. Just because YOUR reading is mainly Facebook doesn’t make YOU well-informed. And that is not ‘researching’ either. Why is it that you people always resort to insults when you feel you are losing an argument? It’s a dead giveaway.

          Perhaps YOU should read something other than that and then you might see that the whole world is not made up of narrow-minded, unimaginative and ill-read ‘remainers’ with a chip on their shoulders. Indeed, your time would be better spent trying to persuade us that your EU is the best thing since sliced brot. You’ve made a start with the Nobel Peace Prize thing, though – everyone feels better after a good laugh.

    • Oggy
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

      Another dimwit who thinks we didn’t know what we were voting for.

      • hans christian ivers
        Posted June 16, 2019 at 12:44 pm | Permalink


        Is this sort of language really necessary?

        • NickC
          Posted June 17, 2019 at 8:30 am | Permalink

          Hans, A bit like your “slow learner” then? Or is it one rule for you and another for us? I didn’t see you deplore the Remain habit of calling Leaves “thick”.

    • mancunius
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 3:12 pm | Permalink

      Utter rubbish, and just more multi-ID propaganda.

      • hans christian ivers
        Posted June 16, 2019 at 12:43 pm | Permalink


        What Margaret is saying about the Eu and the prize is correct.

        • NickC
          Posted June 17, 2019 at 8:33 am | Permalink

          Hans, Clearly Margaret was wrong. The EU is a dictatorship; and the Nobel peace prize was awarded to it.

    • old salt
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 3:29 pm | Permalink

      There were endless debates ad nauseum prior to the referendum for those so interested.

    • L Jones
      Posted June 16, 2019 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

      Speak for yourself, Damore. Most of us did a lot of research to make sure we DID understand the question. The Government helped by sending us all a propaganda leaflet, which remainers seem to have ignored (judging by the questions they keep asking about what ‘leave’ means).
      Many of us wanted to make sure we got it right – knowing that it was important to our country and the future of our children.
      People like Ms Howard here might still be confused about the whole subject, but most of us with a half-decent education have a grasp of the bigger picture, as we did back in 2016. If there’s anything YOU still don’t understand, perhaps you should ask the question here – I’m sure there are many, much more knowledgeable than you, who can put you right.

  34. John Sheridan
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 7:20 am | Permalink

    “They want to pitch Parliament against the people, and get Parliament to dilute or cancel Brexit.”

    At the next General Election (GE) , this will form part of the Brexit Party’s narrative if the Conservative Party do not deliver a meaningful Brexit; Parliament against the people.

    As the Brexit Party are poised to do more damage to the Conservative Party than the Labour Party, it is critical that the Party chooses a committed Brexiteer as it’s next leader.

    Even then, given Parliament’s composition, I suspect a GE will be needed before Brexit is delivered. The Conservatives will need to forge a deal with the Brexit Party to prevent splitting the Brexit vote.

    • Timaction
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:24 am | Permalink

      No. I think the Tory Party brand is now so damaged a brand why would the Brexit Party want anything to do with them? Most are remainiac liberals as their actual policies have shown. May’s latest climate change farce!v They have some good MP’s in Mr Redwood, Bill Cash, Duncan Smith etc but far to many Grieves, Soubary’s, Boles, Clarke, Hunt etc. Everyone now knows the level of lies and treachery in the bubble of Parliament! The swamp needs clearing with true patriots and Brexiteers.

    • old salt
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

      John Sheridan:
      Should the vote be split down the middle, as could very well happen, this would open the door to Labour or the LibDems.

  35. Pat
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 7:30 am | Permalink

    O/t I understand that there are enquiries under way as to the possibility of voting fraud at Peterborough.
    Is it not high time for an enquiry into the security of the electoral system, with a view to closing all weaknesses which have ever been exploited, and also checking for other weaknesses that could be exploited in future?

    • Dominic
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:34 am | Permalink

      I believe now is the time for a radical reworking of the infrastructure of our electoral system to eliminate Labour’s manipulation of postal voting by certain members of their client state

      We also need to look at Labour’s use of immigration as a strategic tool to import a bloc vote from certain countries through the reworking of chain migration legislation

      That Tory MPs have allowed Labour to behave in this manner for such a sustained period of time without intervention is indicative of how terrified Tory MPs are of entering into the debate on immigration, race and ethnicity. Their cowardice has brought us to this point where our democracy is openly abused Labour and their client vote

    • 'None of the above'.
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:10 am | Permalink

      I totally agree, postal voting is fertile ground for electoral fraud and should be abolished. Proxy voting requires the Elector to register the Proxy Voter who must attend the Polling Station in person.
      If the Proxy Voter does not vote in accordance with instructions, that becomes a personal matter between two people and not a systemic fraud.

    • Tad Davison
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:27 am | Permalink

      Every citizen of voting age should have the right to cast that vote whichever way they please. Unfortunately, in some cultures, that isn’t permitted and it is the male who determines which way his wife (or wives) vote. The only way to ensure their conformity to his wishes is for them to have a postal vote whereby he can physically make certain of their obedience to him.

      Hardly in keeping with the best traditions of British democracy hey what?

      • Fedupsoutherner
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 3:52 pm | Permalink

        Not when it enables electorate fraud.

  36. Everhopeful
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 7:39 am | Permalink

    It is no good trying to debate with the Left.
    Nor is there any point in attempting to apply logic to what they say.
    And most importantly never, ever be fooled by their virtue signalling!
    They do not care about ANYTHING except their screwy agenda.
    Some follow the agenda because they actually believe that socialism ( despite all history) makes the world a better place. ( The useful idiots).
    Many of them are in it for the money ( as in why the left taxes muchly and conservatives are not supposed to!!!).
    But mostly it is about POWER. That’s all.
    For years now the left has had normal people running round in circles trying to appease them.
    Let us STOP. The left is very dangerous!

    • Dominic
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:39 am | Permalink

      Toby Young – thanks to GF

      ‘Socialism always begins with a universal vision for the brotherhood of man and ends with people having to eat their own pets’

      Though I don’t believe socialists are innately humane and humanitarian. Their essential drive is the ownership and domination of total political power not the alleviation of suffering or the promotion of human advancement but Young isn’t too far wrong in his statement

      How Socialism still enjoys a ‘free ride’ is one of the most perplexing conundrums of the last 100 years. Maybe the political State in the west embrace its core objective, the turning of humanity into political capital

    • Timaction
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:27 am | Permalink

      In a nutshell its the PC agenda to prevent free speech, stop meritocracy, imposing minority views and anti English culture and religion, whilst trying to impose their left wing views on the populace with authoritarian legislation, mostly by the virtual signalling Tory’s!

    • Anonymous
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

      It’s as embarrassing as watching BBC R2 trying to change itself into Radio Millennial.

      The Tories can imitate socialists as much as they like but lefties will never vote for them.

  37. Simeon
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 7:39 am | Permalink

    Playing devil’s advocate, a counter to this argument is that MPs are representatives and not delegates. They are therefore expected to exercise their own judgement as circumstances evolve following their election. Remainers argue that where we are now is different to where we were in 2017, the last time the people were consulted. It is therefore necessary to interpret the will of the people as expressed then in this new context.

    The reality is that this present Parliament is not willing to do what it was instructed to do in the 2016 referendum. Regardless of whether this is right or morally correct, or not, the new PM, if he intends to deliver a proper Brexit, must give himself the chance to do this by calling a GE that may then produce a Parliament that will support and enable him. We might think that the present Parliament should do this, but the reality is it will not. It would be refreshing to see some actual leadership on this issue. We the people can only watch and wait.

    • Ian
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:35 am | Permalink

      Its not just the will of the people. 80% of parliament said elect me and I will get you out of the EU, no preconditions just out. Then the same representatives of the people passed a law saying they would ensure we would leave without precondition.

      They then went unto let you know they lied in their manifestoes. Then to add to that they placed themselves above the law and refused to enact it.

      You break a UK law and see what happens

    • Andy
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

      No – the reality is that Parliament cannot do what it was instructed to do in 2016. Because the cost free ‘cake and eat it’ Brexit promised by Boris Johnson’s Vote Leave does not exist.

      Most MPs are diligent enough not to want to cause significant harm to their constituents. Even if some of their constituents are yelling at them to commit that act of harm MPs, understandably, are reluctant to comply because Brexit harms everyone – not just the minority yelling for it.

      I genuinely have no qualms about a no deal Brexit harming any of you. You all claim you voted for it. If your jobs go – or, as most of you are retired – if your kids or grandkids lose their jobs: tough. Your vote, your problem. If your medicines run out, I sure no tears. I genuinely do not care what happens to any of you.

      I care about what happens to the majority of people – 48m or more – who did not vote for the mess you have inflicted on the country.

      • Fred H
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

        Andy…..I’ve noticed your maths ability never got passed Year 1, but I’m here to tell you that in spite of your assertion that 48m did not vote for the mess, 30m of them are not allowed to vote. Out of those who live here, 50m did not vote to remain in the EU choke grip. The sad thing is that the majority of 650 people in the Hof C seem unable to do basic reading, do not understand
        the advice not to sign anything until you have read, preferably understood it, and accept that they will be asked the same question 3 times, and yet give different answers each time. One wonders how they got through to private schooling, maybe a parent paying the fees is all that is necessary. Were you privately schooled?

      • Richard1
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 8:05 pm | Permalink

        Well 3/4m or so newjobs have been created since the vote vs a forecast of at least 1/2m to be lost – with your concern for people you must be thankful for all those families who now have a future versus the welfare dependency which Remain forecast for them? Is, I don’t know, Canada or the US or Switzerland, running out of medicines as far as you’re aware?

    • NickC
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

      Simeon, Not quite. On this issue (Leave/Remain) MPs are delegates because they received a specific mandate from the 2016 Referendum. It was MPs’ own choice to allow the people to decide; MPs provided the law and the money to do it; and MPs promised to accept the result. They cannot wriggle out of that.

      You know as well as I, if we had voted 52:48 for Remain, that Remain would have already been implemented. I believe the bulk of MPs can be shamed (or politically threatened by TBP and UKIP) into accepting the democratic result. It is a pity such MPs won’t do so of their own volition, of course

      • Simeon
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 7:10 pm | Permalink

        I made a reply, but my Internet connection got the better of me. My main point is, regardless of what MPs should do, it’s what they will do that matters. Given the vast majority of them will not countenance a proper Brexit, anyone wishing to see a proper Brexit should desire a GE, so that MPs that will deliver the democratically expressed will of the people may be elected, and a proper Brexit government formed. We’re still waiting for one of the leadership candidates to recognise this, and lead accordingly.

    • Anonymous
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

      They wilfully misconstrue the EU elections and the Peterborough by elections. And the general election in which Brexit manifestos were chosen by most of the voters.

  38. Al
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 7:43 am | Permalink

    One thing I keep hearing from Remain is that Leavers must ‘compromise’. A compromise requires both sides to make concessions, but I haven’t heard anything from Remain detailing what they would conceed on issues like VAT (e.g. the tampon tax, fuel tax, or digital VAT), laws (e.g seed laws, article 13&15), EU rulings (e.g. Factortame) or future governance.

    The sad truth is that Remain can’t compromise because EU laws and policies forbid it.

    • Andy
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

      A far better solution to all of this Brexit mess which Brexiteers have created is for you to outline precisely what it is that you want. The referendum did not do this. It gave an answer of what you didn’t want. It’s like going into a restaurant saying I don’t want pizza bring me something I like – without specifying what it is. Chances are you will get something you don’t like.

      You will find very few Remainers who think the EU is perfect. Far from it. Most of us recognise that it has significant flaws. But then we are realists who understand most things have significant flaws – including Westminster.

      I would like to see Leavers stop whining about what they don’t want – and to list, in detail, what they do want. Your problem will come in that many of the things you want are incompatible and are contradictory. You will therefore have to choose. And this is why Brexit has gone wrong for you so far. You have not yet figured out that some of the choices you have to make are deeply unpalatable.

      • Edward2
        Posted June 16, 2019 at 7:40 am | Permalink

        This is a simple one to answer andy.
        We voted to leave the EU.
        To become a free independent nation like the over 160 others.
        In control of our laws money and borders.

        • margaret howard
          Posted June 16, 2019 at 11:16 am | Permalink

          And becoming the 51st US state eating their poisonous chickens and having the NHS in their greedy hands.

          Oh what fun you will have!

          • Edward2
            Posted June 17, 2019 at 6:29 am | Permalink

            What a silly comment Margaret.
            Their chickens are not poisonous.
            Careful dont eat pre washed bagged salads or dare swim in a swimming pool.
            The only thing that might happen to the NHS is that it will save many millions by being able to buy drugs and other items from America at a cheaper price than EU restrictions currently prevent..

          • APL
            Posted June 17, 2019 at 6:54 am | Permalink

            margaret howard: “And becoming the 51st US state eating their poisonous chickens ”

            At least you’d be getting poultry flesh.

            In the EU if you buy beef there was a high possibility you’d get horse. So on food safety, I think you might be, er, flogging a dead horse, with that one.

        • hans christian ivers
          Posted June 16, 2019 at 12:41 pm | Permalink


          We have been there before “A free independent nation” as you envisage no longer exists

          • Edward2
            Posted June 17, 2019 at 6:32 am | Permalink

            Not as I envisage but as you envisage hans.
            If we have mutually beneficial trade arrangements with other nations after we leave the EU that still means we are independent.

          • NickC
            Posted June 17, 2019 at 8:35 am | Permalink

            Hans, Yes, free independent nations do exist. And the UK can become one of them again.

      • Al
        Posted June 16, 2019 at 8:55 pm | Permalink

        None of the items I have listed above are incompatible or contradictory. They simply need revocation.

        If Remain can provide a way to revoke these and Remain in the EU without exposing us to further such inept lawmaking, then that would be a compromise many would be willing to discuss.

    • Robert mcdonald
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

      There is no doubt that the meaning the remain cabal put on the words compromise and cooperate is that we must stay in the eu.

  39. Fred H
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 7:44 am | Permalink

    As if it wasn’t clear before, certain MPs are not fit for office. They are not agreeing to abide by parliamentary rules, nor acceptable behaviour. We have seen it writ large – they and MPs and leaders in other UK institutions continue to seek reruns of voting, whether by the people or the elected members, simply because they lost. Democracy is threatened. They must be deselected, outed and rmeoved from office by constituency members. The very decision making body, Parliament, is at risk of collapse. The people want action, it is no longer fit for purpose.

  40. Narrow Shoulders
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 7:48 am | Permalink

    How can you aim such critisism?

    They have moved among (like minded) people and taken soundings of heartfelt feelings.

    • Gary C
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 8:17 am | Permalink

      They have not moved outside of their own echo chamber and as such are out of touch with the electorate.

  41. Woody
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 7:51 am | Permalink

    I find the cant from remainers about compromise and cooperation is another example of their insincerity about democracy. When we were given a choice to stay and leave and chose leave there is no compromise possible.

  42. James1
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 8:01 am | Permalink

    Enough of the electorate are well aware of what has been going on in Parliament, and to put it mildly they don’t like it. The arrogance of a number of the recalcitrant MP’s has been quite breathtaking, and their smug smiles need to be wiped off their faces. At the next GE they are going to be given a reminder in no uncertain terms that MP’s work for the people and not the other way round.

    • Tad Davison
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:34 am | Permalink

      Lets hope the smug smiles of Hammond, Gauke, and Liddington are soon wiped from their faces. It is infuriating to watch their arrogance.

  43. Dominic
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 8:01 am | Permalink

    How will the person in the street know that we have the left the EU? Will someone flick a switch and the lights come on again?

    What defining piece of evidence will finally confirm our new place in the world alongside other free and sovereign states?

    • clemo
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:32 am | Permalink

      By deciding for ourselves what we want in terms of security, defence, immigration, industrial, farming and fishing policy plus a commitment to the absolute primacy of British law and the banning of Sharia law if not in accordance with the law of our land.

      • Fred H
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

        clemo …..I think that was too concise for Andy, try adding 10 pages of fine print, he might possibly get the idea.

    • R.T.G.
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

      No single piece, Dominic, it will be the weight of various pieces of evidence achieved over different periods of time which tips the scales; for example, oversight of our legal system, control of our borders for purposes of trawler licensing and of immigration in the public interest, our money within the confines of world markets, and freedom to trade as we agree with the rest of the world including Europe.

  44. RAF
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 8:07 am | Permalink

    How very EU.
    The contagion has spread to all parties and to much of the Civil Service. The UK must sever the umbilical to Brussels and replace the anti-UK/pro-EU elements in Government.

    • Timaction
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:28 am | Permalink

      Indeed it must clear the swamp and its associated civil serpents!

  45. Newmania
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 8:33 am | Permalink

    The Conservative Party, leadership election is a process whereby an eccentric electorate about the size of Worthing, who voted for the Brexit Party, decide what kind of country 67,000,000 of us will live in for the next forty years. I say forty years, but as 40% of them are over 65, let’s say ‘up to’, forty years, in their case.
    Nonetheless it is we “remoaners”, who are the poor democrats. That would be because we do not accept that there is a mandate for the No Deal nightmare Leave promised could not happen; *Stan Laurel look to camera*
    Both Parties support Brexit and so it is democratic seems to be the argument . Did I miss an outbreak of mental enfeeblement or has someone been passing around the hallucinogenic substances again ?

    • Fred H
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

      most probably mental enfeeblement, explain which 2 parties (you say both) support Brexit? There are others.

  46. Iain Moore
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 8:51 am | Permalink

    Its a mistake to label it a Remain issue, its an issue with all EU supporters and their project. The EU project was always an anti democratic project to install a spra national Government that never had to seek a mandate from the electorate. The Maastricht treaty, which was a big step towards their goal, was driven through Parliament on a vote of confidence. They never sought a mandate to dilute our sovereignty with whole swathes of vetoes down graded to QMVs with the Nice treaty. When they were forced to give us a referendum on Lisbon, they ratted on the undertaking. When we got a referendum and they lost they have done everything in the power to over turn it.

    It has been naive of EUsceptics/Brexiteers to believe that the Remainers would respect democratic results or our institutions and so play fair. I suppose it high lights the difference between the two camps, where the Brexiteers were seeking to restore our Parliamentary democracy, and the Remainers were talking about money. Both sides were talking about cross purposed during the referendum, and still are.

    • Andy
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 8:06 pm | Permalink

      A good summation. It has been truly sad and shocking just how far Remainiacs in Parliament and without have pushed this, seeking to destroy Democracy itself. We must fight, fight and fight again to preserve our Democracy, our Law and our Liberty.

  47. Shieldsman
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 8:54 am | Permalink

    My comments of yesterday have disappeared so I will briefly repeat.
    In his article for Lawyers for Britain, Stanley Brodie QC invites attention to something which is often overlooked – the actual wording of Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union which regulates the departure of Member States from the EU. View the full article: Article 50 TEU Part I and Part II (23.5.19) by Stanley Brodie QC
    Recently the EU has imposed a further extension of time on the UK until the 31st October 2019.This imposition cannot be supported by the terms of Article 50, which seems to have been ignored. It is an example of the willingness of the relevant parties to agree extensions of time without limitation, no doubt based on the notes issued by the civil service.
    There is, however, one important qualification. In paragraph 3 of Article 50 one finds the possibility of an extension to the two year period. At the end of the paragraph there appears this proviso:
    “unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned unanimously decides to extend this period.”
    The EC and the Member State can agree to extend “this period”. This period is the two year period after which the Member State ceases to be a member of the EU automatically. But it would appear that the power to extend Article 50 can only be used once; “this period” appears to be limited to the two year period, making it clear that no further extensions to Article 50 could be made. That would certainly curtail any power to make any further extension.
    The EU27 have used up their ‘YOU WILL REMAIN IN THE EU CARD’.
    Further: The implied purpose of the extension clause to complete negotiations does not exist. We have exceeded the two year period with non taking place and reached a stalemate.

  48. Les
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 8:59 am | Permalink

    He would not be allowed anywhere near the establishment – he was a Christian…
    Slightly off-topic: could you – quickly – start a public list of actions required by a new PM or government (a manifesto)? There is a long list of obvious and popular matters which need implementation, initially in relation to Brexit (no ECJ/CU etc.), but going far beyond that, between you and “conservativewoman” I think you could show clearly so many things which need halted or even reversed. Has no-one the guts and principles to do so? I fear not.
    Everyone is scared of the liberal ‘intelligentsia’ (haha) and their grip on the media. It is strange how there are so many ‘backward’ – even dictatorial regimes in the world that bumble along without all the trash which is being imposed on the UK electorate.
    I don’t suppose many even here will agree with me, but I am sure that the root of it is “post-Christian Britain” or rather Christendom/the West.
    It is remarkable that Daniel* – Prime Minister of the first world empire (Babylon) was given to describe the end result of world rule as “miry clay” – widely understood to refer to the weakness of democracy – don’t wish for proportional representation – it is a further weakening of government – but probably unavoidable.
    Still, it is the “best of the worst” democratic basis of UK sovereignty which is the bottom line vis-a-vis foreign rule … until one goes to the deeper level of why man is incapable of good government in any form.
    (*One who would be ignorantly mocked as an unevolved peasant.)

  49. Norman
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    ‘They just assert that they know better than the people’.
    Parliament has been doing this for at least 2 or 3 decades now, probably longer. The way we are being dictated to about what’s good for our children to be taught about relationships and ‘climate change’, are two glaring examples of a dangerous and cynical global agenda. Democracy is being strangled, because it was founded upon sovereignty of the nation-state, and ultimately of course, the Bible, from which all our laws were derived.
    The current ‘apostasy’ (falling away) is predicted in the Gospel’s and Paul’s Second Letter to the Thessalonians, and heralds the soon-return of Christ. (Just ‘Google’ 2 Thess 2 NKJV).
    There’s never been a more important time to dust off, read, comprehend and respond to ‘God’s Love Letter to Mankind’ – the Word made flesh (John 1.1ff).

    • Fred H
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

      you don’t have to search the scriptures, just look through the EU officials – you might find several who might claim ‘the word made flesh’.

      • Norman
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

        Fred – if you don’t avail yourself of the knowledge of the True, you will certainly be deceived by the False: witness Napolean and Hitler, who beguiled whole nations, with disastrous consequences. The cost for the few who stood against them was high.

  50. Ian
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 9:27 am | Permalink

    Sir John, you are as always telling at it is.

    It was clear after the coronation of Mrs May lying was to become acceptable in Parliament. The people lent Parliament their sovereignty, it wasn’t in Parliaments gift to trash that trust. It was clear the way May operated she had no intention of permitting us to leave control by the EU

    Parliament has become a den of egos, not a place that advances the well being of a nation

    If the local pollical associations don’t start pulling their representatives in to line by and ensuring they respect the will of their electorate, it would appear we have to strive for the totally destructive direction of a General Election with all its dangers.

  51. Gareth Warren
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:00 am | Permalink

    The hardcore of remainers really are not doing their future prospects any good.

    I look ahead to October and wonder if parliament will be made ungovernable due to conservative rebels post a WTO brexit. Here I believe the PM has the power to deliver brexit, but may be forced to a GE shortly afterwards.

    If a GE is called before an election then it will likely be bad for conservatives, but if a WTO brexit is delivered I would expect the results to be good with a brexit vs hopeless remain battle with the brexit party only contesting against limited number of seats, labour are good prospects as are rebellious conservative remainers.

    That would be an election to really clean parliament out of tory remainers, I do note many are disowned by constituencies so won’t even stand at GEs I do wish here such a breakdown in trust could automatically result in a byelection.

    A suggestion : Better voter ID and the formal requirement to hold a byelection when changing party should be tabled now, something most conservatives could agree on.

  52. ELMES Joy
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:20 am | Permalink

    Definition of LEAVE…….
    abandon, decamp, depart, desert, disappear, do a bunk, flit, forsake, go, go away, move, pull out, quit, relinquish, retire, take off, withdraw.
    None of these mention compromise, deals or such.
    Brexit was a good title to encapsulate any one of the above, but, like the word Gay, was appropriated to mean something different. When T.May promised to deliver Brexit, she never meant it, not in the true sense, but people who took it at face value were led to believe it was really LEAVE.
    This fudge and deceit has caused no end of trouble.
    Leave or Remain, there is no centre ground, no compromise. Even a young child understands you are either in a room or outside the room, you cannot be both.

  53. Doug Powell
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:28 am | Permalink

    “Remain does not do Democracy!”
    Not quite true SJ – they DO democracy – only when it suits them! What produced the
    biggest hypocritical guffaw of the year so far was yesterday’s pronouncement from Grieve “that to prorogue parliament would be anti democratic!” This from someone who has been trying to murder democracy since the referendum! The nerve of some people!

    “They just assert they know better than the people.” – Spot on! As the Queen of the Neo Liberals once said – They (we) are deplorables! Therefore unworthy of the vote! As things stand the vote of the Village Idiot has the same value as the vote of the Lord of the Manor! That is what they don’t like, the believe THEY are more worthy and as such should have more votes!

    Indeed, we have seen the point made and argued on these VERY PAGES that the remainers have more degrees that the leavers. The mere making of that point can only mean that they regard themselves as SUPERIOR. It is then only a short step to capitulating and giving them their ‘right’ of extra votes, or removing the votes from the deplorables so that they (we) are unable to influence decisions via democracy!

    • Doug Powell
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

      With regard to more remainers having degrees than leavers, there is also the issue of quality!
      Most degrees obtained by remainers will be the likes of Meeedya Studies, PC (not computer) Studies, and everything else with “Studies” in the title! The degrees from courses with “Studies” in the title can categorised into qualifications in one kind of Bullshit or another! Whereas degrees obtained by leavers will have been qualifications in proper academic subjects – and the leavers will have worked a damned sight harder for them than the Snowflake generation have for theirs!

  54. iain
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:28 am | Permalink

    I fear that many people will now see little point in voting at a General Election where the elected MP disregards the Manifesto on which they were elected. Let’s be honest…What is the point ????

    • Fred H
      Posted June 16, 2019 at 10:31 am | Permalink

      Iain….no point in considering a manifesto. Just look at the candidates, listen to them, and decide to trust them? Yeah, I know thats pretty tough, isn’t it!

  55. Christine
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:29 am | Permalink

    Whilst the Remainers see a chance of overturning the decision on Brexit this problem will continue and stop our country moving forward. The next leader needs to leave on 31st October with a clean break. Once the deed is done, it will be very difficult to reverse and people will move on to making Brexit a success.

  56. BR
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:32 am | Permalink

    Why are you not demanding that the little goblin does not allow the issue to return? As per his own ruling on the matter with MV4 etc.

    But I agree, the endless chicanery is tiresome – and the endless assertions too.

    A few days ago, I watched a clip of an old Cameron speech where he announced the 2016 referendum, where he says “You the people will decide, not MPs, not (blah blah), not Parliament’.

    Note: NOT Parliament.

    Any sovereignty parliament may have had in this matter was very clearly devolved to the people. That clip should be played and re-played up and down the country on 24 hour loop.

    And that is, after all, what a referendum is: the handing of complete control, sovereignty if you wish, to the people on a single issue.

    Of course, the concept of ‘the sovereignty of parliament’ is questionable anyway in a democracy. Demos (the people) kratos (rule by) clearly shows that the people are sovereign.

  57. BR
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:33 am | Permalink

    P.S. How are you going to stop May’s legacy vanity projects such as giving £1Tn climate change promises. Can she even do this in any binding way by evading the Cabinet and hoping that this hopeless bunch of MPs will vote through her legislation?

  58. David Maples
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:47 am | Permalink

    ‘Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?’
    (Luke 12:56)

    • Fred H
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 5:22 pm | Permalink

      but David, its not always easy to spot lying, cheating bastards. Try BBC news programs, it might make it easier for you.

  59. Doug Powell
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 10:59 am | Permalink

    The latest delaying tactic the remainers are putting forward to prevent leaving on 31st October is that the new commission will not be in place, so negotiations are not possible!

    If we left on 31st October, and both EU and UK believed a mutually beneficial trade deal was within reach, could not the EU agree to continue trading on existing terms for a limited period (1,2 or 3 months) until all avenues had been explored?

    Would this be legal or practical, SJ?

    • Doug Powell
      Posted June 16, 2019 at 9:08 am | Permalink

      SJ, I was hoping for an answer to the question.

  60. Edwardm
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:02 am | Permalink

    The Brexit process has been very useful in revealing the type of people we have as MPs.
    To me, this has shown that we have somehow got a majority of MPs in parliament who quite inappropriate, generally being all Remainers (excepting the few Remainers who accept the result).
    To regain credibility the conservative party needs a new slate of Brexiteer candidates in place of the numerous Remain MPs and candidates and to remove CCHQ from candidate selection – returning it to local associations. (CCHQ has still been supporting D Grieve until recently).
    Either the Conservative party takes action or else the Brexit party will do it for them.

    In the new leadership election I wish the candidates wouldn’t attack each others background – its what you do in life that counts, not whether you went to one school or another; leave that pettiness to the Labour party as that party has nothing going for it.

  61. JoolsB
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:06 am | Permalink

    Dominic Grieve has declared in public that he will bring down his own Government in a vote of no confidence rather than allow no deal. No doubt there are other ‘Tory’ (???) MPs who would do likewise. Why are these MPs still in possession of the party whip?

  62. Lorna
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:07 am | Permalink

    Brilliant ! thank you for your very insightful comments over the past months !
    Much appreciated
    Please advise Boris to stay well away from the Remainer trap of TV debates
    Rory Stewart has been very divisive and insulting about other candidates ! Indeed anyone who does not agree with his views on Brexit .
    He has goaded Boris to take part ! Boris has nothing to,prove !
    He should avoid this as the media helped by Rory
    Stewart will use it like an inquisition !
    I do not recall Gordon Brown or Theresa May being asked to take part in TV debates
    The final choice is for Tory Party members
    The sooner this process is completed the better .It is much too drawn out !
    The final two must be chosen on Tuesday ! No later!

  63. Shirley
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:23 am | Permalink

    Please excuse my naivety, but I thought the whole point of democracy was so that the electorate could choose who governs?

    Remainers appear to believe that those who govern should be able to choose who governs, ie. the EU, and not the people elected.

    Also, the electorate never consented to be governed by the EU.

    • Fred H
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 8:23 pm | Permalink

      Shirley …you have got it all wrong. Democracy is the opinion of the few in Westminster, plus some who give us the benefit of their view on here.

  64. NickC
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:32 am | Permalink

    JR, Thank you – a first class post, summing up the Remain position succinctly. Remains try to change the rules after they’ve lost. The Remain position is dishonourable, hypocritical, bad faith, and anti-democratic.

  65. John P McDonald
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    I can only conclude that most MP’s are terrified of having to be responsible for running the external affairs of the UK. When we are out we have parliament’s for England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland for in country matters.
    I can understand the Scots not wanting to be ruled by the English, but why they are happy to ruled by the EU from Brussels I know not.
    In case of any ethnic issues raised by the PC police, please note surname 🙂

  66. George Hinton
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

    It is a trait of the EU to re-hold votes until the correct decision is made, i.e. the one that was tabled, so no surprise that some MP’s have become tainted with EU attitudes of contempt towards the electorate.
    Perhaps the point should be made, that it is the EU and it’s rules that prevent Parliament from exercising its powers to remove VAT from women’s sanitary products. That CAP prevents cheaper agricultural products from outside the EU due to support for French farmers, (A stitch-up from the EEC’s inception), with import levies and that the CFP destroyed fishing grounds. That the loss of so much of our industrial base is as a result of EU policies, particularly carbon targets. See the recent travails of British Steel, carbon costa and fines and the insistence of the EU of no state subsidies.
    The referendum gave the people of the UK an opportunity to voice whether they wanted a neutered Parliament or one that they controlled.

  67. mancunius
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

    As one MP audibly jeered across the floor of the House after they lost the No Deal vote: ‘You won’t be cheering in September!’ Which is when they have their next go…………… these remainer MPs only have to be lucky once.

    And not a single one of them can express any actual reason for staying in the EU, other than rhetorical platitudes about ‘Europe’ and ‘peace’.

  68. ChrisS
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 1:21 pm | Permalink

    My contempt for those Remainer MPs is absolute.

    Looking ahead, even if we do leave on 31st October, we will NEVER be able to drop our guard.

    At the next General election, the SNP, Greens, the LibDems and possibly Labour, will be campaigning to rejoin the EU. If the Conservatives don’t make some form of pact with the Brexit Party, it’s possible, likely even, that the Remainers might be able to cobble together an unholy coalition with the tiniest majority of votes or seats.

    They will be demanding we rejoin the EU, never mind that the terms that might be offered will almost certainly not include any of our current opt outs and rebates.

    The best way of ensuring this cannot happen would be to allow another Scottish Independence referendum

  69. Paul Cohen
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 1:21 pm | Permalink

    Despite a sharp warning from his constituency Dominic Grieve was his usual pompous and petulant self in the HOC this week, showing his usual contempt. Soon may he be gone!

    • Fred H
      Posted June 16, 2019 at 7:34 am | Permalink

      Central office won’t agree to his deselection. How do we deselect Central Office?

  70. hans christian ivers
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

    Sir JR,

    think the remain /Brexit distinction is out of date and of course the vote in the referendum should be respected and be executed.

    What I am more concerned about are the extremes on both sides, like saying we will leave without a deal and we will not have to pay anything to the Eu and we will continue trading according to GATT and WTO Paragraph 24,( never thought to apply to this sort of context)(rules that China and the US are constantly breaking) which is practically not possible, nor will we ever be able to leave without living up to our obligations n the current budget round at the EU.
    According to the BoE the Brexit project has already cost us £93.5 billion in lost growth and for the moment (April, May) the economy is hardly growing at all.
    This is where we should concentrating our resources.

    • mancunius
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

      You have never respected the result of the 2016 referendum (which was to leave the EU) so it is rather too late to pretend now that you do. Such a decision is essentially binary, and it was clearly made.
      Naturally, as a member of the EU, you would like us to help you out by contributing £39bn to your current economic preficament. Sorry, but the polite answer is ‘No’.

      • hans christian ivers
        Posted June 15, 2019 at 6:07 pm | Permalink


        As a British citizen I am not sure what you are talking about?

        • hefner
          Posted June 16, 2019 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

          Don’t you know, HCI, on this blog there is even one contributor who the other day was pointing out that Brazier (Theresa May’s maiden name) was ‘fr’ and implicitly was inferring that it might not be welcome on this island.
          Funnily enough such a name might have come with the Normans, so clearly could now be considered of ‘reasonable’ settled status (after 953 years)
          So for such a person who are the island’s proper inhabitants? Answer please on a confetto as big as this person’s brain.

  71. Jack Falstaff
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 1:53 pm | Permalink

    It appears to me that there are a lot of the Remain public who have been duped by some, rather brighter, puppet-master type Remainers from the Establishment into believing that they are the intelligentsia and that Leavers are less intellectually endowed.
    It is only human nature to feel comforted to “know” or think that you are smarter than others, yet if people are led to this conclusion by manipulative types, then it is sad in a way that people can be so foolish as to actually fall prey to this trope.
    Not only this, but resorting to such insulting, name-calling behaviour in any debate does tend to mean that anybody’s power of logical argument has in fact reached the barrel-scrape.
    Surely democracy is all about acceptance of what the majority opine without further quibble or childishness?

  72. ian
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

    Nor does the con party.

  73. Shieldsman
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

    As Mrs May departs, the Conservative Party is selecting a new leader who will become Prime Minister. That person’s principal task will be to achieve Brexit and deliver the results demanded by the 17.4m people who voted to leave the EU in 2016.

    This task requires a new start. It should not involve an attempt to renegotiate the Withdrawal Agreement ( ‘WA’) which resulted from Theresa May’s disastrous negotiations with the EU. Such an attempt would be futile, since the EU has set its face against any ‘reopening’ of the WA. It extracted a formal commitment from Mrs May not to try to reopen it as a condition of the European Council decision to grant an extension of the Article 50 ‘two year negotiating period’ to 31 October 2019.

    The extension was obtained at a price and not for its real purpose

  74. Mike Wilson
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    Yes, the endlessly spouted argument that we wanted sovereignty back from Brussels but now don’t want our Parliament to exercise it is both stupid and, of course, deliberate.

    The people were given sovereignty over the decision by Parliament by letting us make the decision in a referendum.

    Parliament should now have NO SAY in what happens. WE decided. That’s it. Why they think a few hundred of them trumps 17.4 million of us I have no idea.

  75. Shieldsman
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

    Following a request by Prime Minister Theresa May, the European Council (Article 50) agreed on Thursday 21 March to extend the UK’s departure date to 22 May 2019, provided the Withdrawal Agreement is approved by the House of Commons by 29 March 2019 at the latest. If the Withdrawal Agreement is not approved by the House of Commons by then, the European Council has agreed to an extension until 12 April 2019. In that scenario, the United Kingdom would be expected to indicate a way forward before this date.
    This means the European Council accepts the legal purpose of the extension clause is to give extra time to conclude the Withdrawal Agreement beyond 29th March up until the 22nd May, this is the only extension permitted and made within the two year period and is the first extension.
    The Withdrawal Agreement was not concluded in this extension period hence the Council made the 2nd extension to the 12th April.
    This is all explained in Brexit preparedness: EU completes preparations for possible “no-deal” scenario on 12 April

    The 3rd extension to 31st October was granted after a formal commitment from Mrs May not to try to reopen it as a condition of the European Council decision to grant an extension of the Article 50 ‘two year negotiating period’ to 31 October 2019.

    What the English Courts have to decide is the legality of HMG accepting extensions to Article 50 ad infinitum, beyond its legal wording.

  76. Eh?
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 5:08 pm | Permalink

    UNDER ECHO: “It’s caused by FOREIGN bodies secretly sneaking into OUR private DO-main. And there you have it.”

    • Eh?
      Posted June 15, 2019 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

      And, do not hold your breath that ONE case of ONE nurse will arise of taking ONE surplus sandwich and eating it his or herself and therefore carrying the listeria as it is said patients may still have the virus and not know it.
      Nor expect ONE case of a ONE nurse taking ONE sandwich and feeding to his or her ONE spouse or ONE child.
      Nor expect that ONE GP will see ONE child and announce that the ONE child has listeria.
      The NHS is not all that it seems outside political rhetoric and the lies spoken and written by its highest personnel of course with not ONE bit of ideology in their dope (free at the point of their use ) heads.

  77. Robin Wilcox
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

    It really is not surprising that both the Conservatives and Labour are ‘enjoying’ less than half the level of support they had in 2017. The longer this goes on the deeper the hole they have dug for them selves will get. All they had to do was honour the manifestos they stood on. They’ve chosen not to and as a result are both close to destroying their parties.

  78. ukretired123
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 7:21 pm | Permalink

    Wow Sir John’s post hit the bullseye sore spot laser like where MPs not only forgot who they were supposed to represent but the manifesto they were elected upon.
    Fudging is incompatible with a Binary Choice.
    Denials, ducking and diving and every trick in the brainwashing book has been done and still:
    We don’t believe you!
    Like a boomerang comes back in ever decreasing circles!

  79. Alexis
    Posted June 15, 2019 at 11:25 pm | Permalink

    It must be a really good trough.

  80. Simon Coleman
    Posted June 16, 2019 at 12:08 am | Permalink

    As if anyone’s going to take lessons in democracy from you. You believe that a government with no majority should be able to push through a hard Brexit option that was not put to the people in the referendum. You campaigned in that referendum alongside people who said not only that we needed a deal, but that it would be easy to achieve. Now you say that No deal was the choice made by the narrow majority for leave. You clearly believe your own publicity that you’re a great force for democracy…but you don’t know the meaning of the word.

    • Edward2
      Posted June 16, 2019 at 7:45 am | Permalink

      A soft brexit option was not put to the people either Simon
      The Withdrawal Agreement is not a deal.
      Any negotiations for a deal starts after we have left.

      • Simon Coleman
        Posted June 16, 2019 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

        Yes, that’s true – no particular options were put to the people. The problem is – we now have a minority government apparently ready to suspend Parliament to force through a specific policy which Parliament has already voted against. Surely, the only solution in a real democracy is to have a general election. But I don’t hear that great democrat Mr Redwood calling for one!

        • Edward2
          Posted June 17, 2019 at 6:41 am | Permalink

          Best to honour the result of the referendum.
          If that means suspending a Parliament that refuses to obey that decision by the voters then that is what the next Prime Minister may have to do.
          If the EU refuses to move at all from their current position, then it becomes more a likely outcome.

    • Dominic
      Posted June 16, 2019 at 10:32 am | Permalink

      52%. Democracy in action. You’re in denial. Seek assistance

  81. Billm
    Posted June 16, 2019 at 10:52 am | Permalink

    Hypocrisy runs wild amongst the die-hard Remainer MPs.
    Why would they want OUR Country to be under the control of a foreign power? An oligarchy none of whom have ever been elected by the citizens they are supposed to represent and are a rule unto themselves because they are the only ones who can create EU Laws.
    It seems to me that the Brussels Empire is so similar to the old USSR in the way it is ruled but without the military enforcement. Yet!!

  • About John Redwood

    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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