World taxation Is a bad idea

The G7 Finance Ministers and Central Bankers claimed a breakthrough in moving to a world based system of company taxation. President Biden wanted to set a minimum tax rate of 21% worldwide, and find a way of preventing some global companies booking too much income to low tax countries. He settled for a a 15% proposed minimum rate, and a complex outline over the allocation of profit. The Communique offers “market countries awarded taxing rights on at least 20% of profit exceeding a 10% margin for the largest and most profitable enterprises”.

These so called twin pillars of policy were important to get all the G7 on board. The USA seeks the abolition of the recently imposed digital turnover taxes in the UK, France and elsewhere as a trade off for the promise of some transfer of profit to tax in countries where the digital giants trade substantially. Either way the USA will be one of the major beneficiaries. Many of the large global digital giants are US corporations who have in the past kept substantial business offshore in lower taxed jurisdictions. President Trump offered favourable terms to get some of the cash repatriated. The final agreement was a much watered down version of the original US proposal.

It needed to be watered down as countries understandably value independence in seeking to tax companies. There is no world government with democratic accountability or authority that can set a world tax rate for business and distribute the revenues between countries to a formula. The EU has been trying to get there by small steps, but has found it is much easier to invent a new specialist environmental EU tax that applies to all than to reform a tax like corporation tax so that it becomes a uniform levy. The EU has decided to allow Ireland to be a tax haven with a 12.5% corporation tax rate, even though many EU member states are unhappy about that status.

I think tax competition has a lot to recommend it so there is some countervailing force to the remorseless pressure to tax more based on the theory that higher rates produces more revenue. In the case of business taxes a lower rate often raises the amount of money collected, acting as an incentive to invest, raising the prospective returns and leaving more cash in the business to pay for it. Lower rates can produce more income for shareholders and governments.

This proposal looks difficult to enforce. The 15% minimum is not too damaging, and is still below the UK rate so it does not currently constrain us. There will need to be some good drafting to decide how turnover and profit allocation will work within a multinational profitable company. So far the general language allows various interpretations.

Assuming the G7 leaders endorse this recommendation, it then needs to be worked up further and sold to the G20. China and Russia may have other ideas. If they can be accommodated then it needs the support of the whole OECD. The proposal is vulnerable to some countries seeing an opportunity to set a low corporation tax rate or to accept the minimum rate but offer lots of offsets and concessions to try to remain or gain status as a good tax location for substantial booking of business.

167 Comments

  1. Peter
    June 8, 2021

    World taxation is unlikely to work in practice. Globalists now call the shots. Many countries and their politicians are beholden to them.

    Then the lawyers will get to work and loopholes will be found.

    Reply
    1. Lifelogic
      June 8, 2021

      Let us hope so, but it means more and more tax experts, tax collectors, tax lawyers, compliance people and fewer and fewer productive workers. Taxation at more than circa 20% of GDP is nearly always a bad idea this as government spend or invest cash so very inefficiently. 20% of GDP is plenty to do those few things government does better that businesses, charities and people.

      Tax competition is vital for an efficient economy as is competition in general. The UK is currently heading for 50% while delivering generally dire public services too.

      Reply
    2. Dave Andrews
      June 8, 2021

      Not only the lawyers finding loopholes, but the politicians encourage them, because they want the multinational investment; their jobs look good in the headlines. Meanwhile, UK companies pay full whack.
      Gordon Brown on the news the other day, moaning about multinationals paying little corporation tax. Well he was chancellor for a decade then PM, but did nothing about it during his time in office.

      If multinationals pay more tax, does that mean I have to pay less, or does it just mean government spends more? Need I ask?

      Reply
      1. Lifelogic
        June 8, 2021

        Governments will waste even more and you will probably pay more when buying from multinationals and the likes.

        Reply
    3. Andy
      June 8, 2021

      The irony is that you are probably all ‘globalists’ too – and you don’t even realise.

      The stuff you buy is probably mostly mass produced, abroad.

      The food you eat is probably mostly imported.

      The car you drive is manufactured by a foreign owned company.

      Your holidays are probably mostly overseas.

      Your cash is probably held in foreign linked investments.

      Perhaps it is denial. Perhaps it is a lack of awareness. Perhaps it is self loathing. Who knows?

      Reply
      1. Glenn Vaughan
        June 8, 2021

        Andy

        Your scribbled contribution reads more like a description of your lifestyle. It certainly does not describe mine.

        Reply
      2. NickC
        June 8, 2021

        Well, you’d know about self-loathing, Andy, wouldn’t you? Even for a Remain, your hatred of so much of your own country – the UK as a nation, its history, its culture, its old people, and even Leave voters – is a salutary reminder of your festering bigotry.

        Moreover when many of us on here pointed out to you that supply chains (remember your brief dalliance with JIT?) were global, and not confined to your EU empire, you wouldn’t accept it. And you have a problem distinguishing fact from value – globalism exists, but that fact does not make it good (or, indeed, bad).

        Anyway, how’s your extra “55,000 penpushers” thingy coming on?

        Reply
      3. jon livesey
        June 8, 2021

        That is quite inane. We import from overseas and we invest overseas because of *differences*. Imports and investments are about moving value around without having legal control over other countries. That is the reverse of globalism. You are arguing against yourself.

        Reply
    4. MiC
      June 8, 2021

      I must commend John on his headline, which could not be better tailored to the infantile absolutist mentality of many on the Right, and well-represented amongst commenters here.

      This is an enormously complicated matter in terms of its possible ramifications, and I think that it is unwise to represent it otherwise.

      However, at first sight it would seem to offer the scope to benefit a very large section of the planet’s people, probably most of them, and that must mean that to dismiss it out-of-hand would be iniquitous.

      Reply
      1. NickC
        June 8, 2021

        That’s because you don’t understand what principles are, Martin.

        Reply
    5. nota#
      June 8, 2021

      I must congratulate Sir John on highlighting how dangerous the new Leftish Socialist Dream World is.

      The left in their one size fits all, meaning in ‘my image only’ are out to destroy society and it would appear Biden and the EU have lifted the Corbyn mantle and wish to take it further

      Reply
  2. Mark B
    June 8, 2021

    Good morning.

    Apples and Oranges.

    Not all countries are the same, so not all tax regimes should be the same.

    The UK, Sweden and Norway have high social costs, and so to support them, they need numerous and high taxes to pay for them. Switzerland, Lichtenstein, Monaco and many Arab States have very low social costs and access to what is available is heavily restricted. The USA too has low social costs and is arranged on a Federal basis with many of the States acting more like small countries. They certainly have greater freedom to operate than many EU Countries do.

    So why should countries with low social costs, small efficient government and less waste be held back by those that do not ? Typical Socialism – You’re doing better so you have to suffer more. Stupid. Just raise your own game and make improvements to your own system.

    Former US President, Donald Trump had the right idea. He lowered taxes and brought the investment home. Half a loaf is better than no loaf.

    Reply
    1. MiC
      June 8, 2021

      Many countries cannot afford high social expenditure because they have low GDPs and or low taxation.

      They are trapped by the global corporations who would pull out if they changed that.

      This would help them greatly.

      Reply
      1. NickC
        June 8, 2021

        No, Martin, you’ve got it back to front. This G7 attempt at global fiscal governance damages the unique selling point – low taxes – of the countries you claim it will help.

        Reply
    2. turboterrier
      June 8, 2021

      Mark B
      Exactly.
      15/20% of nothing is nothing.
      Smoke and mirrors especially with China and Russia not being at the table.

      I share our hosts concerns and doubts.

      Reply
    3. Hope
      June 8, 2021

      Mark,
      And Johnson’s government refuses to say or publish through FOI how much it is paying of our taxes to the EU now we have allegedly left!

      Highest taxation in seventy years and JR still writes endless circular blogs about the same themes, economy, Brexit, taxation, immigration and aid, which his party and govt have total responsibility without any hint of shame, embarrassment or humility.

      US has given Guatemala over a billion dollars in aid and it has not made a jot of difference to Poverty, food supply or how the country is run. May, Mitchell and other left wing socialist dopes in JR’s party ought to prove what UK wasteful aid from our taxes has actually achieved. Better still let them justify giving billions of additional UK aid money to EU where no MP had any say whatsoever over how the EU spent it! Similar amount to what is proposed is cut. These people in this party and govt are an utter disgrace to our nation.

      Reply I wrote plenty of blogs about the need for a referendum on Brexit, the need to vote for Brexit, and how to get Brexit done. Not all pointless as you suggest, yet you still come on and read what I say.

      Reply
    4. Enrico
      June 8, 2021

      Totally agree.Each country is different.

      Reply
    5. Ed M
      June 8, 2021

      Trump is as bad as Sweden but from the right instead of the left.
      Instead, let’s look at the UK and our Protestant Quakers who created great companies such as Barclays, LLoyds, Cadbury, Clarks, Frys, Friends Provident (insurance), various Steel companies, and loads more. A very small % of people in this country but whose influence on this country’s economy has been huge.
      Not only on economy but the great way they treated their workers, patronised arts and public works etc
      And then look at our Catholics in the Middle Ages – Catholic royalty, nobility and merchant who helped build so many of the great buildings and institutions of The Middle Ages. Catholic Guilds etc that ensured quality of work etc ..
      Both Traditional Protestant and Catholic – focused on building long and sustainable economy, arts / culture, family life and values, work ethic, and sense of patriotism and public duty
      Forget Trump and his modern secular rat-race capitalism and Sweden and its modern secular socialism. Rather, let’s focus on the type of capitalism the Quakers in recent centuries and Catholic merchants in the Middle Ages espoused and the strong family life and rich culture civilisation they built on that.

      Reply
  3. DOM
    June 8, 2021

    ‘world based system of company taxation’. I’d cry a shed load of tears but I’m bone dry out of them.

    Biden’s a retard, we know this but such an idea if it does come to fruition will destroy accountable democracy, which of course is the ultimate aim

    I can smell Obama’s presence in all of this. Like the odious Blair, both will not crawl away and rest under a rock

    Reply
    1. agricola
      June 8, 2021

      That is another way of putting it DOM. The multinationals have found a way to run free, not subscribing to their politicians vision for life. Generally the multinationals (MNS) provide a very efficient service to their customers while government do not or are at worst predatory. Some MNS or their owners can be Quaker like in their desire to fight some of the more obvious challenges to human life. Witness AZs current gesture to battle Covid at cost, but not before you have sated us say the EU.

      Reply
    2. Lifelogic
      June 8, 2021

      +1

      Reply
    3. MiC
      June 8, 2021

      Nor will Trump – however he has finally said the right thing, albeit for the wrong reasons.

      To wit, that cryptocurrencies such as bitcoin are a scam.

      He dislikes them because he thinks that they threaten the world dominance of the US dollar.

      He could have said that they facilitate all manner of crime and are ideal for the covert funding of movements which subvert democracies by evading campaign spending limits or foreign contributions restrictions.

      To be honest I’m surprised at him – their rôle in right-wing movements like his own around the globe is quite well documented.

      At least it has knocked another $4,000 off it whatever.

      Reply
      1. NickC
        June 8, 2021

        Martin, Cryptocurrencies – and non-national currencies (eg the Euro) – are a scam. But a scam of the hard left woke tech giants and globalists. To wit Musk’s incontinent endorsements of various cryptos, Facebook’s “Libra”, and the Euro itself. You support the globalists who support the scam you claim to hate. You’re one mixed up kid.

        Reply
        1. MiC
          June 8, 2021

          The four nations of the UK share a currency.

          What ever do you mean?

          Reply
          1. NickC
            June 9, 2021

            Martin, The four regions of the UK share the English pound sterling. That is the problem for the SNP – remember?

    4. jerry
      June 8, 2021

      @DOM; Your own daily comment(s) do more to tell the world far more about yourself and your own “odious” political agenda than they do anyone else’s. The people you gratuitously insult have been elected by the popular vote, many multiple times, unlike you I suspect, they stand accountable, have you even had your name on the ballot paper, just once, how did it go?…

      Reply
      1. NickC
        June 8, 2021

        Well, I think your strictures apply to yourself more than Dom – you certainly make more comments on here, Jerry. And your comments tell us far more about yourself and your own odious political agenda – British socialism as run by the Tories in the 1950s – than anyone else’s.

        Reply
    5. John Hatfield
      June 8, 2021

      neither

      Reply
    6. Jim Whitehead
      June 8, 2021

      DOM, +1

      Reply
  4. agricola
    June 8, 2021

    As far as I can judge, whatever tax scheme you apply to these free roaming multinationals it will fall back on the customers. Yet another burden for Joe Public.
    The possible advantage to the UK of adapting a minimum rate of CT is that it will attract more overseas businesses to base themselves in the UK. This in turn means more employment opportunities and consequent increased standards of living for more UK citizens. At the end of the process a thriving UK economy results in more income for the government.
    If UK government has any desire to reduce the tax burden on its citizens it would remove IHT and CGT. Iniquitous taxes on already taxed income, ie taxed when you earn it and when you spend it. It is as if government are saying, though we wish you to keep your head just above water we do not wish you to run freely. You are our worker bees and ants, do not aspire to anything greater.

    Reply
    1. SM
      June 8, 2021

      +1

      Reply
    2. Andy
      June 8, 2021

      The UK is a poor choice of base – thanks to Brexit.

      Whilst manufacturers need a free flow of goods, digital companies need a free flow of people. And thanks to your Brexit we are now the only country in developed Europe which no longer has this.

      Whilst a French worker can nip to Germany for a week to work, or a Pole can spend a fortnight at the office in Italy before heading off to work direct for a customer in Denmark, the British workers are still stuck in queues for visas to do all this. It’ll inevitably make people with British passports second class citizens in their own country.

      Incidentally in all the discussions about migration over the last few days nobody asked you Agricola about what prompted you to become a migrant. Was it the benefits in Spain – I’m told that’s the only reason anyone would want to move – or were you motivated by other factors?

      Reply
      1. a-tracy
        June 8, 2021

        Andy, an yet…more UK sales, jobs and investment has been predicted by SME manufacturer’s today. Confidence is at its highest level for two years according to Manufacturing Barometer.
        Surescreen diagnostics is to create 1000 jobs after acquiring a new factory in Nottingham. Expansion of a company that exports to 50 countries.
        Norton British motorcycles is set to open a new factory in Solihull.
        GE Renewable Energy submitted plans for a new multi=million pound wind turbine blade manuf plant on Teeside, 750 direct jobs and 1500 across the UK supply chain.
        If you want more good news Redwoodians then check out Jefferson_MFG on twitter.

        My father lost two key jobs in his life when his plant and factory went to the EU. People like you didn’t care, it had a massive impact on our lives and my Dad’s career.

        However, I do agree that our government let us down with work visas allowing freedom to get work permits for groups to work in the UK that the EU doesn’t allow equivalence. Allowing imports of meat from the EU that the EU have banned from the UK including inter-trade with Northern Ireland. They have to level this playing field.

        Reply
      2. NickC
        June 8, 2021

        Andy

        The UK is an excellent choice of base – thanks to Brexit.

        Instead of being constrained and limited by the “fortress EU” mentality of your EU empire we have the whole world to explore.

        Reply
      3. agricola
        June 8, 2021

        My god you are etc edBenefits in Spain are for the Spanish and miniscule by comparison with all the handouts in the UK. Were I about to set up a business the last place I would choose would be the EU.

        The attraction of Spain is the obvious climate, a much healthier place to live than in the UK. The whole ethos of the spanish people, the availability of fresh food, and a total absence of PC ,Woke and the level of negativity so dear to you. A police force, in fact three, who are visible and instantly available when you need them.

        The UK has a myriad of delights. From a business point of view I would be happy to set up here in the UK in the present, armed with a good accountant. It is and will be a place of great opportunity. At this time in life I have no need or desire to be a player.

        The bonus advantage of Spain for me is a summer cloud base of around 12,000 feet, lots of unrestricted airspace, and a get up and fly attitude among those I play with. Thermals at 5m/ sec minimum and lots of vultures and raptors to mark them. You would need to go to Australia, S. Africa, or the USA to find similar.

        Leaving behind the negativity you perpetually exude is another little plus. Having played enjoyably with the french in various activities over my lifetime I wonder how they put up wifh you.

        Reply
      4. jon livesey
        June 8, 2021

        “Whilst manufacturers need a free flow of goods, digital companies need a free flow of people”

        That’s the most idiotic comment I’ve seen today. Digital companies do *not* need a free flow of people because they can do their work over the Internet.

        You talk about “digital companies” but you are thinking of assembly lines and wokers having to be physically present.

        You literally have no idea what you are talking about.

        Reply
      5. Andy
        June 8, 2021

        I really am not thinking about assembly lines at all.

        I am thinking about the the big companies for whom moving people around is a key part of their business.

        I wouldn’t expect people who signed us up to the Brexit mess to understand how the modern workplace actually works – seeing that many of you haven’t been in one this side of the millennium.

        Reply
        1. a-tracy
          June 8, 2021

          Andy it is you behind the curve, digital applications can be done in Poland, France and Italy the person doesn’t need to travel anymore at all, they work from home as millions have done this past year especially in digital industries. Assembly lines need physical workers and they need to pay the right rate to get British workers to train and be productive in their UK workplaces.

          It seems to me that you don’t understand how the modern workplace actually works. You don’t seem to be connecting with modern IT at all.

          Reply
    3. jerry
      June 8, 2021

      @agricola; Or no burden at all for the public if they understand necessary public services and investments need to be funded, does it matter which hand Joe Public’s hard errant dosh is pulled from, the public (tax) or private (market) provider. Do not assume private always allows more choice, more employment opportunities and consequently increased standards of living. The single largest leap in living standards and job opportunities, here in the UK, ever came between 1950 and 1968, a period of (by today’s standards) very high corporate and personal taxation. Today some far more successful economies, than the UK’s, have higher tax rates.

      That said, are “World tax rates” a good idea, personally I don’t think they are, they are another brick in that wall being built by the rich or powerful called World governance, be it via the G7/x, the UN or both.

      Reply
      1. NickC
        June 8, 2021

        Jerry, the point at issue is that whilst some state provided public services (eg police and military) are necessary, many are not – the debate is about which. Food, water, sewage, and housing – the most basic public services – are provided by private undertakings. And you cannot simply expect your choices to be accepted without question by others – that would be rude.

        Reply
        1. jerry
          June 8, 2021

          @NickC: You are the one missing the point, the private sector has had free reign for the last 40 years with regards housing, and had a substantial bite of the pie before that too, yet we have a far worse housing crisis now than we did back 50 years ago and with regards housing stock renewal probably not since 1945 [1], the UK does not have enough houses given the current population size and demographics (the whys and wherefores are a separate debate entirely), in short your beloved private housing sector has failed some very basic tests, non of which have anything to do with property value.

          I have no problem with the private building sectors, in case you think otherwise, after all I’ve know two or three self made millionaire builders in my life, and much of their wealth came from building houses – via fixed price contracts, to build LA housing estates/developments from the 1950s through to the 1970s, as well as their own smaller private ‘executive’ developments. Nor if LA housing stock is sold off, just so long as the policy is to reinvest in appropriate LA housing were there is the local need/demand.

          “you cannot simply expect your choices to be accepted without question by others – that would be rude.”

          What a strange comment, are you not expecting me to accept your choices without debate, you have not offered one scrap of evidence as to why the private sector is best able to provide certain essential services rather that the public sector – and no I do not think farming should be run by the state! That said though, there might well be an argument for certain (basic) foods to have price controls, so us plebs can afford them and/or the farmers do not go bust, whilst the private sector middlemen get rich.

          [1] hence all the problem cladding on old buildings that should probably, by rights, be razed to the ground, not just tarted up and made ‘complaint’

          Reply
  5. Sea_Warrior
    June 8, 2021

    I share your unease. Now I’m off to the docks to throw a couple of cases of American beer into the sea.

    Reply
    1. agricola
      June 8, 2021

      Make sure it is the US version and not the one from eastern europe whose brand name the US one stole. They are like chalk and cheese.

      Reply
  6. DOM
    June 8, 2021

    Today, corporation tax, tomorrow a global income tax and every ‘global’ citizen. Welcome to Marxism. Internationalists like Harris will like that very much.

    Well done Johnson and Sunak for opening the door to US Marxist infiltration.

    Reply
    1. Lifelogic
      June 8, 2021

      All the tax increases that Socialist Sunak has announced (for the already hugely overtaxed and regulated UK) will result in less tax take not more. It will deter investment, destroy jobs, decrease the tax base and encourage businesses and hard working people to leave. The insane net zero lunacy will do the same. When you overtax you are taking the money off efficient, sensible investors and giving it to politicians and bureaucrats (very inefficient and often corrupt ones). Politicians so dim or even corrupt they think net zero, HS2 and paying for others restaurant bills are sensible “investments”!

      Not their money, not they who get the benefit or any return, so they care not what they spend not what value (if any) they get.

      Reply
      1. NickC
        June 8, 2021

        Except, Lifelogic, Sunak and Johnson are not even building the electricity generating plant essential for their net zero green dream. Frankly, it would be hilarious if it were not so tragic. I assume they’ve accepted Andy’s expert view that if only we lowered the power of our toasters, everything will work out.

        Reply
        1. Lifelogic
          June 8, 2021

          Indeed and much nuclear capacity is set to close with Dungeness now to close early due “technical problems” forcing EDF to bring forward closure of Kent plant by 7 years.

          I suppose they will just import more “biofuels” and pretend/lie they they are “low carbon” that and export more jobs and industry – those whom the gods would destroy they first make mad.

          Reply
  7. Shirley M
    June 8, 2021

    The only countries that would be eager for world based systems are the high taxation countries, so as remove potential competition. Taxpayers who live in a country that have a low level of tax funded services should not pay the same tax as countries with a high level of services.

    I do agree that taxes should be paid in the countries that multinationals make those profits. There must be a way to determine profits made in those countries by making multi’s declare sales to those countries, less running costs incurred in the same countries, as the taxable profits.

    Reply
    1. NickC
      June 8, 2021

      Shirley M, All that needs to happen is have a form of IR35 for corporations. Let HMRC assess what a global corporation’s profits in the UK would be if it were a stand alone UK business, and tax that. If the assessment was always higher than actual profits the global corporations would rapidly learn to pay taxes based on their real profits.

      Reply
      1. Shirley M
        June 8, 2021

        +1 Good idea, NickC.

        Reply
    2. Peter Parsons
      June 8, 2021

      The problem is that what you suggest is exactly what they do now, it’s just they get to include things like “IP licensing”, “brand value” and other such intangible constructs in their costs and are able to get away with paying licensing rights for those constructs to another part of the same company which just so happens to be based in a low tax jurisdiction. It’s an amazing coincidence how often this sort of internal intellectual property licensing charges seems to almost perfectly offset any real profits made, and that is the challenge that needs to be addressed.

      I doubt that Facebook or Twitter would try and sell less advertising, or Amazon less stuff, if they had to pay tax on the real profits they make in the UK rather than the ones the current system allows them to get away with declaring.

      Reply
  8. oldtimer
    June 8, 2021

    With luck this idea will die the death it deserves. Countries must work out their own mix of taxes and the services they want paid for out of taxes. All are different. One size shoe will not fit all sizes of feet. We can be sure that this US proposal is entirely self serving.

    Reply
    1. NickC
      June 8, 2021

      Oldtimer, You may be right, it may die off. After all we live in an era where virtue signalling is more important than deeds.

      Reply
  9. Oldwulf
    June 8, 2021

    World taxation.

    Is this the reason why Musk and Bezos are interested in space travel ?

    Reply
  10. Denis Cooper
    June 8, 2021

    Off topic, some excellent news in the Times today:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/eu-compromises-on-northern-ireland-nh22n7rzf

    “EU compromises on Northern Ireland”

    One of the most important concessions being that guide dogs will be exempted from the usual requirements for admission to EU territory, so a UK citizen will be allowed to take a guide dog from one part of his country to another part of his country without the EU imposing any checks or controls on the movement.

    I think Tory MPs can be really proud of themselves and their leader for this great achievement, at one time it seemed that we might be heading for total national humiliation but instead we might be getting out the bunting and holding street parties.

    Reply
    1. MiC
      June 8, 2021

      Sarcasm is not the lowest form of wit at all, as your post – I assume it is – shows.

      That would be mocking the afflicted, I think.

      Reply
      1. jon livesey
        June 8, 2021

        Which is worse, then. Being sarcastic or denying the right to have a guide dog without EU supervision?

        Reply
    2. NickC
      June 8, 2021

      Lovely one, Denis. It certainly beats my hobby-horse of pointing out that the government is not building the power stations for its claimed net zero electric future.

      Reply
    3. a-tracy
      June 8, 2021

      Denis, do you have the access/knowledge or a link to all of the items that Britain can no longer transport to Northern Ireland without specialist certificates and agreements?

      What % of these products does the UK ban from the EU without the very same certification?

      Reply
      1. a-tracy
        June 8, 2021

        Denis one more question, do you know if Northern Ireland could be self-sufficient in these items and also export to the UK?

        Reply
    4. Lifelogic
      June 8, 2021

      +1 what a sick joke this NI agreement is. We must deal with it decisively now.

      Reply
    5. jerry
      June 8, 2021

      @Denis Cooper; Excellent news, just so long as the visitor and their guild dog do not want a traditional British banger for Breakfast! Meanwhile the Daily telegraph is reporting the EU is “threatening to start a sausage trade war” if the UK govt carries on allowing sausages from GB to enter NI beyond the period of grace allowed for in the NIP.

      Reply
      1. Alan Jutson
        June 8, 2021

        Perhaps hot dogs or sausage dogs would be exempt as well. ?

        Reply
  11. Roy Grainger
    June 8, 2021

    If they raise corporation tax where do they think the money will come from ? Right – us – the customers.

    Reply
  12. George Brooks.
    June 8, 2021

    On the face of it a simple, laudable idea that will turn out to be an incomprehensible unworkable fudge when ministers and lawyers from 20+ countries have had a go at it.

    The tax advisors and lawyers of the ‘multi-nationals will always be two or three steps ahead, so we should concentrate in ensuring that the UK is at the top of the list of countries where it is best for these companies to be located.

    Let the EU know that if they don’t use ‘their best endeavours’ to make the N I protocol work they will have a super tax haven right on their doorstep!

    Reply
    1. SM
      June 8, 2021

      +10

      Reply
    2. NickC
      June 8, 2021

      George B, Yes we should stop pandering to the EU empire. It is outrageous that the EU thinks it can get away with splitting up the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland without a fight. And shameful of Boris Johnson to comply with the evil empire’s hostility and bullying.

      Reply
  13. Narrow Shoulders
    June 8, 2021

    The tax rate is not the problem it is the ability of companies to shift profits around using royalty payments or overly expensive components.

    The only way to stop profits being offshored to the lowest denominator is a turnover tax (or the EU environmental lobby). Turnover tax hits consumers but so does corporation tax and products have a maximum price for which it is possible to charge. How much will (consumers ed) pay for coffee, what is the limit, how high will (consumers ed) go for a phone with a coloured screen? A small destination turnover tax is a better collector of revenue and is impossible to avoid in the country where the goods are delivered than corporation tax which companies have a duty to pay as little as possible of.

    Companies should contribute to the cost of the trading environments where their markets exist.

    Reply
    1. a-tracy
      June 8, 2021

      NS I agree with you.

      Reply
  14. Leslie Singleton
    June 8, 2021

    Dear Sir John–Is it part of the SNP’s plan that a seceded Scotland would join the EU (they hope) and move to a 12.5% Corpration Tax like Eire? I haven’t myself yet understood why the EU allows such blatant preferential treatment when of course many EU countries could not possibly like it.

    Reply
    1. MiC
      June 8, 2021

      Well, whatever you might think of anything that the European Union allows, there’s not a blind thing that you or John can do about it now, is there?

      Reply
      1. NickC
        June 8, 2021

        Well, there wasn’t a blind thing we could do about it when we were a colony of the EU empire either, Martin.

        Reply
      2. Leslie Singleton
        June 8, 2021

        Dear Mic–You sound like one of them Remainers one reads about still fighting in the jungle. Who said I wanted to do something about Ireland’s low tax? Let them get on with it is the way I see it. If it looks crazy it probably is. It would have been nice though to have understood it better but your answer hasn’t helped much on that.

        Reply
        1. Fedupsoutherner
          June 8, 2021

          Agree. He always says John is obsessed with the EU but he can’t stop going on about it.

          Reply
      3. Peter2
        June 8, 2021

        With one vote out of 28 the UK had little power anyway MiC

        Reply
      4. jon livesey
        June 8, 2021

        On the contrary, if the G7 successfully pass a minimum corporate tax and the EU continues to ignore what the ROI is up to, there will be plenty we can do about it, and it will be very embarrassing for Brussels.

        Reply
    2. Murphy
      June 8, 2021

      On the other hand if it so wishes Ireland has every right to expect the rest of the other EU countries to change their CT rates down to 12.5% the same for afterall Ireland has held this rate for decades long before a lot of the EU treaties were signed. The next thing they’ll be telling us is that we have to close down Shannon Tax Free Zone because other countries havn’t got around to starting them up yet?..

      Reply
      1. NickC
        June 8, 2021

        Murphy, As a colony of the EU empire you’ll do what it tells you. And remember to say please and thank you.

        Reply
        1. MiC
          June 8, 2021

          It wasn’t any European Union institution which ordered lockdowns, was it?

          Nor could any.

          Your post is the usual silly nonsense yet again.

          Reply
          1. NickC
            June 9, 2021

            Errmmm, the EU did try to control lockdown in the EU, Martin. But the colonies rebelled and closed their borders anyway. And the EU did order the vaccines, Martin. But they made a mess of that too.

  15. Nig l
    June 8, 2021

    Agreed and of course in our pursuance of Brino this would give in to Germany and France yet again, by removing their worries about our potentially low tax competition.

    Equally like the International Aid budget a target takes away the need for efficiency. And in other news, contrary to the BS from Pritti Patel not one illegal has been removed to a third country. I don’t believe they cannot be found. I think it is an extension of Theresa Mays tenure at the Home Office. Words not deeds.

    Reply
    1. NickC
      June 8, 2021

      True, Nig1. Both points.

      Reply
    2. Lifelogic
      June 8, 2021

      +1

      Reply
  16. David Brown
    June 8, 2021

    It’s probably better to abolish multi National companies.
    However the idea of a global tax on these big companies is an interesting one. This is a project that will probably need to evolve and be amended with time to make sure it works
    I disagree with any tax cuts, I take the opposite view that lowering tax can achieve the same income. I believe the detail is in the law and the way tax is collected.
    Tax havens should lose their dependency on another country to protect them.
    Here there are too many tax loop holes and all should be closed down.
    Any way for me G7 is a step in the right direction
    June looks set to be an interesting month
    G7: opening up on 21 equinox druids celebration and me being Pagon. International gay pride month.
    Vaccination for teens.
    Review of all slave associated statues.

    Reply
  17. Sharon
    June 8, 2021

    Globalisation – the more I see of it the more I know, it is the most destructive and damaging concept ever!

    Reply
    1. MiC
      June 8, 2021

      What, more than global wars, or empires established by brute force and mass slaughter?

      Come on.

      Reply
      1. NickC
        June 8, 2021

        In the last 107 years, Martin, the brute force and mass slaughter was mainly accomplished by socialist ideologies of various forms, not empires.

        Reply
      2. jon livesey
        June 8, 2021

        Far more people have died in Third World violence since decolonialisation than before.

        Reply
        1. MiC
          June 8, 2021

          I’d check that up from reliable sources if I were you.

          I think that you will find that you are quite wrong, and by a long way.

          Reply
          1. NickC
            June 9, 2021

            Martin, I think you will find you are quite wrong. The English, later British, Empire expanded mainly by trade and negotiation – battles were rare and small scale. Then later under the rule of law, the removal of slavery, with modern communications, railways, better administration, lives were saved and extended. For ordinary people, the legacy of the British Empire is exemplary compared with the post-colonial socialist regimes in Africa and Asia.

    2. DavidJ
      June 8, 2021

      +1

      Reply
  18. Nig l
    June 8, 2021

    Could be good politics. Agree thus currying favour with Biden etc subject to a few tweaks to convince your public that you are a key player in the knowledge it is unlikely to go forward so political gains in the belief it won’t happen when you can blame others.

    Reply
  19. Newmania
    June 8, 2021

    My disagreement with Free market fundamentalists, particularly global ones is a conservative one . Capitalism only exists within civilisation you might say. You can see this as coins disappeared from Europe in the Dark Ages. The first global economy involving the infamous triangle trade was only possible with Western Navies patrolling the seas and net-work of Insurance and trusted International Contacts.
    The profit motive ,a fine thing , is blind . It encourages Pirates as well as traders, slave labour as well as model towns, and does not account external costs. What if you can sell cotton to civilised Europe but source it form Plantations whose slaves are treated worse than animals ? We did just that .
    So what happens when products that rely on ( for example ) high levels of health and education avoid paying their share by disappearing , like Pirates and criminals, into the blue yonder, with the booty( Har har ! ) ?
    Why not have a voluntary club of friendly Nations committed to Free Trade contingent on civilised standards ?………..hmmmmmmm

    Just a thought

    Reply
    1. NickC
      June 8, 2021

      Newmania, “Capitalism” is an ideology invented by socialists. Pirates don’t make profits, they steal. The EU empire is neither voluntary, nor a club, nor friendly, nor committed to free trade, nor based on civilised standards.

      Reply
  20. Nig l
    June 8, 2021

    Please tell George Eustace my foreign travel is essential to get away for my sanity from the prison he has created unnecessarily and more importantly find somewhere affordable.

    Rich as Croesus ministers do not have to worry or probably do not even know how expensive the U.K. can be.

    Once again it is the proles that have to suffer.

    Reply
    1. bigneil - newer comp
      June 8, 2021

      Spot on Nig1 – -Govts don’t care about the people they tax. All they care about is getting cash off them, while hiding their own.

      Reply
  21. Peter2
    June 8, 2021

    These companies will obtain the extra taxes from us, their customers.
    They will just increase their charges and prices to us.
    A few lefties will be cheering today but the rest of us realise we will be paying for Biden’s folly.

    Reply
    1. bigneil - newer comp
      June 8, 2021

      I’d like to know how much has been spent on “Migrants ” – some will have been here years, getting housing, benefits, NHS, translators, schooling etc etc – and will have NEVER worked or contributed. Every new one that arrives – the bill to us goes up and up.

      Reply
  22. hefner
    June 8, 2021

    It is curious that Sir John forgot to point out that taxes should be paid in the country where the sales and the profit have been made. Would the UK Treasury not be happy to get a bit more out of the near £14 bn that Amazon made in this country in 2019. Amazon actually paid a tax of £293m to the UK, ie, 2.1%. Just asking?

    Reply
    1. Know-Dice
      June 8, 2021

      Agreed. Also best to encourage those companies to employ and invest in those countries where profit is being made, rather that “export” profits to ROI and Luxemburg….

      Reply
    2. kb
      June 8, 2021

      Exactly. This is the important point, not the minimum tax rate (which global corporations will find ways around anyway). It can’t be right that Amazon and eBay pay such little tax on profits generated in the UK.

      Reply
    3. bigneil - newer comp
      June 8, 2021

      Anyone would think there are Backhanders being handed out – but of course we know our govt are completely honest and truthful.

      Reply
    4. Dennis
      June 9, 2021

      Was that £14Bn REALLY THE PR

      Was that £14 Bn really the profit?

      Reply
  23. Alan Jutson
    June 8, 2021

    As the old song goes, “I can see trouble ahead”
    Would love to be a fly on the wall when the share out is negotiated.

    I guess this will be another over complicated arrangement where Lawyer/Accountants will form a very large part of major corporations management teams.
    Having said the above, a number of corporations have been taking the Micky and getting away with in effect very, very low tax rates indeed, by gaming the present system, so something needs to be done.

    Reply
  24. JM
    June 8, 2021

    In my opinion the answer is to tax multinational companies on the share of their profits earned in each country. That share is to be calculated by simply taking their overall global profit and multiplying it by the proportion of their overall turnover that each country contributes. Therefore if Google worldwide earned 10% of its gross income in the UK, it pays UK tax in the UK on 10% of its worldwide profits. That is the only way to stop accounting tricks being used to relocate profits to a more favourable tax environment. Various devices are used, e.g. a coffee company trading around the world insisting that all its outlets buy their coffee at inflated prices from a subsidiary located in one particular low tax country.

    Reply
    1. NickC
      June 8, 2021

      Excellent scheme, JM.

      Reply
    2. Shirley M
      June 8, 2021

      +1

      Reply
    3. Alan Jutson
      June 8, 2021

      Jm

      Simple and effective, indeed far too simple for it ever to be adopted.

      Politicians it would seem love complication because it keeps them, and the civil service and all the other departments in jobs.

      Reply
  25. a-tracy
    June 8, 2021

    What a tangled web is being weaved!
    These companies are as big and profitable as they are now because a blind eye was turned to their taxation. If the global governments had clipped their wings earlier would they have done so well, putting other tax compliant businesses out of action, buying them up and making them vanish?
    Giving over this tax setting power to none elected people gives just free rein to raise this tax from 15% to 30% – 40% (just as handing over wage-setting rates to the government did, start low and build up) how much is ever going to be enough to satisfy.

    Reply
  26. Bryan Harris
    June 8, 2021

    World taxation Is a bad idea

    Not just bad.

    World taxation Is an extremely dangerous idea

    It is a terrible precedent. Before we know it, there will be some unaccountable global forum set up that will regulate this tax, which then moves on to other areas of taxation that should be none of it’s business, but no doubt the forum will be allowed to ‘grow extra powers’ just as the EU does.

    I very much agree that national tax structures should be for independent countries to decide on. Even without a forum we do not want to be forced to comply with a majority on anything that involves real powers – It takes away authority which shifts to un-elected bureaucrats.

    The EU was very keen, trying again and again, to establish its own direct taxation system. It didn’t happen yet because most countries realise that would be the end of their own authority. Once the EU can regulate directly its tax income from whatever sources, it will no longer need national governments. It will rule via the regions structure and totally bypass national parliaments.
    This global tax on corporations profit may sound like something that needed sorting out, but it is just one small step towards national governments becoming redundant museum pieces.

    Reply
    1. DavidJ
      June 8, 2021

      Agreed.

      Reply
  27. Everhopeful
    June 8, 2021

    Taxation has always been and always will be….theft on a grand scale.
    Always “justified” by the claim of looking after us.
    Well…there can be no such nonsensical claim now can there? ( Imprisoned us and withdrew tax bough and paid for “healthcare”).
    As for the global tax scam…it is ANTI-DEMOCRATIC!
    On the other hand is it acceptable for US big tech to launder their European profits through Ireland to the benefit of Irish Treasury?
    Legal tax avoidance? But what happens to the individual who tries legal tax avoidance?

    Reply
  28. William Long
    June 8, 2021

    We were told we should vote to leave the EU to’Take back control’: why are the very people who told us this, immediately proceeding to take it away again?

    Reply
    1. DOM
      June 8, 2021

      They are liars. A vote for Tory and Labour is a vote to destroy the UK, of that I am now convinced. Both parties share a most similar agenda and that should terrify us all

      Reply
      1. Everhopeful
        June 8, 2021

        +1
        They certainly terrify me!

        Reply
  29. glen cullen
    June 8, 2021

    General taxation is no longer a mechanism for government to collect funds to support their budgets…..its now a weapon used for social engineering, business manipulation, lobby subsidy and political vanity
    The move global taxation is quite scary as it divorces us plebs further away from the elites in power….it will need a new quango

    Reply
    1. DavidJ
      June 8, 2021

      +1

      Reply
    2. Alan Jutson
      June 8, 2021

      +1

      Reply
  30. Original Richard
    June 8, 2021

    If this proposal ever gets to the stage of producing a set of rules you can be sure that those who are writing the rules will soon be working for the big tax consultants to show them where they have left the loopholes.

    Reply
    1. Shirley M
      June 8, 2021

      Which is why the big 4 accountancy firms ‘help’ the UK government for free, in setting up the rules.

      Reply
  31. nota#
    June 8, 2021

    Its a mess because those in power are trying to manipulate and tweak a tax that comes from an age when cross border trade barely existed

    The idea of a World Government without democratic oversight is dangerous after all that is what a World tax is.

    The UK Digital Tax was and is discriminatory and rightly it should have been seen so.

    The USA has for years had the problem that the overseas earnings from their multinationals was taxed on repatriation – Double Taxation. You could reason that this proposal was to force US Companies back on home ground for tax.

    While none of us are up to speed on the nitty-gritty of the convoluted proposals yet to be fleshed out, it is clear that Cooperation Tax (tax on profits) will never be the vehicle to encourage all those that rely on the wealth of others to contribute equally and proportionately to the society that they earn from.

    Famously a World chain of coffee shops charges all their brand outlets, management, service charge fees and requires all orders for the raw materials to be done through a low tax off shore office. Irony the country for this office is not a coffee bean producer, but the beans can only be purchased through this source. In the round what this means is they get to decide the price, the price of the administration and raw materials not on a market rate but at rate that ensures no profits at the working end, so there is no contribution to the earning sources CT taxation system. This practice is the norm for multi nationals even UK multi nationals. It makes sense if everyone else is doing it you follow suit.

    CT is not the tax for a world where cross border trade is becoming the norm. CT tax as it stands, in just an internal UK sense sets out to discriminate and punish the smaller company to the benefit of the larger ones.

    We have lost our High Streets to the bizarre locally dissimilatory taxes, that have the big outlet over the smaller.

    All tax that is not equitable and proportionate to all is just punishment of the minnow. All tax that cannot be challenged, altered, repealed through the democratic structure is punishment to all. We are heading to a frightening new world that lets be honest – that an MP is just a token and the HoC is a redundant nod to a bygone age.

    Reply
  32. Kenneth
    June 8, 2021

    The nearer we get to “globalization”the further we are away from democracy.

    Globalization will eventually make a tiny amount of people extremely rich and powerful at the expense of everyone else. A bad way to go

    Reply
    1. DavidJ
      June 8, 2021

      Indeed a bad way to go. Presumably Boris is eyeing up a position as one of the “extremely rich and powerful”. I hope he will get a rude awakening.

      Reply
      1. Everhopeful
        June 8, 2021

        +1
        Oh me too! He has taken us for such a ride.

        Reply
  33. graham1946
    June 8, 2021

    Going back to yesterdays subject of illegals, have just heard Priti Useless Patel’s answer to the dinghy problem is to ban people from filming in a public place (Dover) so that no-one will be able to see what is going on. Effectively, the end of journalism and public reporting, unless signed up to the MSM. This is horrifying, that freedom of speech and knowledge is now the subject of injunctions against things the government don’t like and are too gutless to tackle. This is the thin end of a very large wedge which will end in ever more shut down of public debate and could possibly extend to this site if the government don’t want to see it? Far fetched? No, all to terrifyingly possible. Such a Home Secretary must resign. I hope Sir JR will take this up – it is far more important than international taxes or how much overseas aid we give.

    Reply
    1. glen cullen
      June 8, 2021

      Its called head-in-the-sand politics

      Reply
  34. ChrisS
    June 8, 2021

    I most readily now admit that our host was correct and I was wrong when I backed Boris’ EU settlement.

    The NI Protocol, as interpreted by Brussels, is completely at odds with us being a sovereign country, even though the idea of NI being within the EU single market as well as the UK was a clever and sensible idea. Unfortunately Brussels, egged on, no doubt by Macron, are not prepared to agree any kind of flexibility in respect of trade between NI and the rest of the UK. In fact, they are adopting the hardest possible attitude over goods going from England to NI. The ultimate lunacy of a ban on English sausages being sold in NI could have been taken directly from the episode of “Yes Minister” where the hapless Jim Hacker has a row with Brussels over the “Euro Sausage.” Well, the outcome that Brussels is looking for is that only Euro Sausages can be sold in one part of our supposedly-Sovereign United Kingdom.

    Sefcovic’s much vaulted “flexibility” is nothing more than a blatant attempt to permanently tie us into EU rules on agriculture with no say in them. That is completely at odds with the whole concept of Brexit.

    Without a new attitude from Brussels, and the ECJ seemingly the ultimate arbiter of any disagreement, I can see no satisfactory way forward other than full withdrawal from the agreement and the adoption of WTO terms.

    Reply
  35. Nig l
    June 8, 2021

    We read all sorts of tosh from self serving politicians about tax but surely the question how much overall tax do these big corporations generate, large numbers of employees all paying through the nose, but putting that money into the economy so with VAT a virtuous circle conveniently forgotten by Biden/Sunak et all.

    Obviously the consumer will ultimately pay so an oblique way of giving us another hit and in any event would they prefer these companies not to exist. Their record of constantly trashing value makes me wonder.

    Reply
  36. Iago
    June 8, 2021

    I found it difficult to keep up with the prime minister’s high-speed gabble in his latest interview. There was much about world government of which he was in favour, and then that there will be a travel pass, but that will be fine because it will be the result of international collaboration. And finally we are going to vaccinate the entire world before the end of next year. It feels like 1930s Germany to me. It certainly ties in with the rest of his policy – the global compact on migration, the massive inward migration, the 1000 page surrender of this country to the European Union.

    Reply
    1. DavidJ
      June 8, 2021

      Boris’ favouring world government is a very dangerous but not unexpected move. We’ve just left the EU (well almost) and government in cahoots with that lot was bad enough.
      Boris has become very dangerous; it will be interesting to see his speaking at the G7 meeting this month and especially what means to give up our sovereignty he proposes.
      A truly dangerous PM.

      Reply
    2. Bill B.
      June 8, 2021

      Johnson is merely saying what his sponsors want to hear. He gabbles so we don’t have time to think critically about what he says.

      Anyone with any familiarity with his political career knows he has no integrity, no principles and no ideas of his own. He is the ideal glove puppet, entertaining, pliant and minus a backbone.

      Reply
      1. Jim Whitehead
        June 8, 2021

        BB +1

        Reply
    3. Sharon
      June 8, 2021

      +1 Iago

      Reply
  37. mancunius
    June 8, 2021

    This decision was greeted by several of the large corporations in question with a suspicious degree of relaxed contentment, suggesting that they already have plans in place to evade it. Possibly those plans include making the G7’s citizens customers pay the tax for them.
    For the US, the aim is to repatriate businesses, and it will not meaningfully achieve that. Its only effect seems to have been to make the tiggerish UK Chancellor bound with glee as if he had achieved something: but then ‘Bouncing is what tiggers do best’.

    Reply
    1. a-tracy
      June 8, 2021

      To me these large mega corporations are like major supermarkets, they start to stock the products sold in Mum and Dad small shops in the precinct, family butchers, bakers, florists, niche card shops cut the prices, then all the individual shops disappear over the following decade one by one. As the supermarket gets control of the parking and only allows a 2-hour window – bingo no-one has time to visit the other stores or take a nice coffee break, so the final struggling cafe’s begin to close. Then look what happens. More low value but high-profit store brands and less choice, higher prices, some lines get cut altogether, the supermarket fish counter gets closed and you’re offered a meagre pre-packed fish fridge. The fresh bread counter goes. Eventually, the local wholesale stockists to the small businesses start to close.
      The global big names bought up all their fleet of foot small competitors and effectively closed them down, now they can put prices up and blame this new taxation. They should never have been given this corporate growth tax fudge in the first place.

      Reply
  38. XY
    June 8, 2021

    “… 20% of profit exceeding a 10% margin…”

    Presumably that’s designed to be as opaque as it reads.

    However, at best 20% of 10% is 2% which isn’t very much. Probably a fig leaf for a failed discussion.

    Reply
  39. forthurst
    June 8, 2021

    Whilst the government is making no effort to collect tax from foreign multinationals that
    make huge profits from selling and marketing using the web, they have removed their right to
    tax British businesses with whom the former directly compete. Furthermore, the implication that businesses making huge profits here are operating on margins in excess of 10% is nonsense.
    The best approach for the government to take is to remove the right of companies to trade here if they do not pay tax on all their profits generated here. If the company is paying the lion’s share of their tax on profits purportedly generated in a low tax domain, that must be the case. The same applies to individuals who wish to live here but not pay their taxes here. Then of course there are the individuals that pay themselves huge dividends into a low tax foreign domain followed by bankruptcy of their businesses and unpaid pension entitlements, wages, rents, rates and taxes. At some point the criminal law needs to be available for dealing with spivery whether on the High Street or in the City.

    Reply Many people are pleased to use the services of a Google or Amazon and pleased they have created a lot of jobs here. These companies are not criminal. Where you book turnover and profit in a multinational with complex supply chains is not easy to resolve given the overlapping and contradictory tax rules between competing countries.

    Reply
    1. forthurst
      June 8, 2021

      It’s very easy for the government to collect taxes from honest people who live and work here. That is no excuse for allowing individuals and companies to avoid their fair whack thereby offloading their share onto others. Here there are large numbers of landlords collecting rent which then passes through an offshore company in a tax haven. A simple rule: pay tax here or do not trade here.

      Reply
  40. Mark Thomas
    June 8, 2021

    Sir John,
    I am reminded of a scene from The Barefoot Contessa (1954), where it was stated as a matter of fact that outside the United States and the British Empire, taxation was seen as something to avoid. Today we would also include the northern half of the EU. But in the near seven decades since, I doubt if the world has changed that much.

    Reply
  41. glen cullen
    June 8, 2021

    Andrew Mitchell MP has just agreed that £4bn is little money here in the UK…..the divide between MPs and the people just gets bigger and bigger

    Reply
    1. glen cullen
      June 8, 2021

      Update – What a waste of parliamentary time this afternoon with the overseas aid debate – not really a debate when all (that’s all) participants are for the motion and no participants against….why did the Speakers allow it and why did the MPs participate in the nonsense

      Reply
      1. rose
        June 8, 2021

        The Speaker made a sensible decision in not allowing the irrelevant opportunistic amendment but then discredited himself by attacking the Government, presumably to show he was being fair. He didn’t even need to give the explanation he gave at the beginning. He doesn’t normally.

        Reply
  42. Andy
    June 8, 2021

    I really have to thank you Brexitists. You are comedy geniuses.

    It turns out now that from the end of the month we won’t be able to send sausages from GB to NI.

    Former UKIPPER Mr Eustace is outraged – and I killing myself with laughter.

    Your grandchildren and great-grandchildren will one day learn about Brexit in school and they will all wonder whether or not you were all on drugs when you voted for such a disastrous deal.

    You have turned us into a global laughing stock. By us I mean all of you because I’m with the rest of the world on this one.

    Reply
    1. jon livesey
      June 8, 2021

      You are projecting, and you are dead wrong. In this morning’s press, the ridicule is directed against the EU, not the UK. A completely gratuitous ban on a harmless food is idiotic, and it’s an issue that every person can easily understand.

      Every country has a traditional food that could be banned by the German neurotics who run the EU, so every country knows that the EU’s purity mania is a danger to traditional ways of life.

      Reply
      1. Andy
        June 8, 2021

        You read the Brexitist press. There’s a surprise. Perhaps if you read other things too you’d be better informed.

        PS: you voted for the sausage ban. Perhaps you should have read what you were voting for?

        Reply I spoke against the NI Protocol and recommended renegotiating. I refused to vote for the final Agreement because of the NI Protocol,

        Reply
        1. jon livesey
          June 8, 2021

          Andy, you are making stuff up, as you often do. There is no such provision in the NIP. This is a case of the EU signing an agreement which was negotiated in good faith, and then applying it in a completely dishonest way.

          By the way, if the EU is going to ban UK sausage in NI, for whatever reason, then that implies they were getting ready to ban UK sausage even if we had voted to stay in the EU.

          Reply
      2. Peter2
        June 8, 2021

        Well said Jon.

        If I were pro EU I genuinely would be embarrassed.

        Sausages sent from mainland UK to Northern Ireland supermarkets with all necessary paperwork guaranteeing quality safety and ingredients….and the EU is trying to ban importation and sale.

        Reply
    2. a-tracy
      June 8, 2021

      Sausages made from imported Eu pig meat in the main, so they shoot themselves in the foot, meanwhile we need to get cracking on our own pig farms and pig farms in Northern Ireland to supply local markets.

      I read that the biggest sausage brand sold in the UK is Southern Irish Richmond Sausages. Now is the time for British sausage makers that use British pork to make themselves heard if they want market share.

      Reply
      1. MiC
        June 8, 2021

        There are many, many brands, so “biggest” does not mean more than half of market share.

        It might be a small percentage, even a very small one.

        Reply
        1. a-tracy
          June 8, 2021

          MiC thanks, I have tried to find a bit more out about place 72 (68) Richmond from The Grocer.co.uk 100 biggest UK brands
          Sales: £117.8m (–0.6%)
          It may play on its status as the “nation’s favourite sausage”, but Richmond is only just holding on to its volumes. That’s despite some timely NPD, such as the launch of a chicken sausage last April designed to feed growing consumer demand for leaner, healthier proteins.
          Kerry Foods of Ireland are a leading manufacturer of chilled food products sold in Ireland and the UK so it is very damaging for them that the EU have started this ‘Sausage trade war’ as some organisations have reported it today.
          I also read that The UK is a net importer of pig meat, currently importing around 60 per cent of all the pork it consumes so the majority of sausages made here are from EU pork! The Guardian reported that some ‘British sausage makers’ like Helen Browning’s Organic says it is switching to Danish suppliers owing to bureaucracy, delays and costs, I hope that she’s not selling these as British sausage to us and Eu sausage to them there has to be a level playing field. Us Brits need to start asking more questions if trade wars are the order of the day to protect our own jobs and producers and especially as it seems our government are incapable of sorting this rubbish out.

          Reply
  43. DavidJ
    June 8, 2021

    The G7 Finance Ministers and Central Bankers should be told to take a hike. Taxation should be the business of our elected government alone.

    Reply
  44. acorn
    June 8, 2021

    One day even leave voting muppets will understand that taxation and the issuance of government savings certificates known as Gilts, “government borrowing” do not fund government spending. Every Pound Sterling the government spends is issued brand new every day.

    It expects to get those Pounds back via taxation sometime, decades, in the future. Not getting it back creates no limitation on what it can spend today. The total of “government borrowing” is the total of the non-government sector’s savings to the penny.

    Taxation is a government tool to stop things happening it doesn’t want (tobacco tax); and, to divert private sector output into the public sector to increase the common good of its society.

    Reply
    1. Peter2
      June 8, 2021

      acorn, you got your magic money tree theory and then a bit of cheap abuse for 17.2 million voters all into one post.
      Well done !

      Reply
  45. rose
    June 8, 2021

    This sort of commitment is in the same league of short-sighted folly as the legally fixed international aid budget. The Treasury should not be beholden on either tax or spending to outside bodies. It is a preposterous sight, all these foreign countries queuing up to condemn us for being only the third biggest spender in the world. And how dreary and depressing all those MPs are who are going along with this outsourcing of our spending, oblivious as ever of where their actual responsibilities lie, and of how wealth is created. The Treasury should tax according to prudent need at the time, taking into account how wealth is created, not just spent. International opinion should not come into it.

    Reply
  46. turboterrier
    June 8, 2021

    O/T but linked to finance.
    When it comes to bad ideas then this report displayed on the Not Many People Know That website is very informative and the evidence presented, is as we think confirmation that there is more than one way to read a computer program. Well worth a read. If our host prints this maybe it will get forwarded to a few MPs
    Social Cost (Benefit) of Carbon Dioxide from FUNDwith Corrected Temperatures, Energy and CO2 FertilizationBy Ken Gregory, P.Eng.May 26, 2021

    Reply
    1. hefner
      June 9, 2021

      Thanks for that, pretty good specially as Ken Gregory within its report (not the summary) gives access to the tools he used, so (almost) anybody could check his calculations and see whether his conclusions align with the numbers. Ah, if everybody on earth could be so open …

      Reply
  47. jon livesey
    June 8, 2021

    Ignoring Andy and MiC, there really is an important issue brewing up in Northern Ireland. Part of it is the neurotic approach the EU has always had towards food, but there is also what the EU can actually impose on the UK. If the EU can exclude traditional British foods from NI – and sausage isn’t the end of it – then they will have been able to impose EU *cultural* control. Food is an important part of daily cultural life and if you can divide a country’s daily culture up and control it, you have shown an ability to party destroy that country’s identity.

    But this is a big risk for the EU to take for what is in the end just a project of spite and revenge. The EU is taking a big bet that the low visibility of NI in UK daily life will lead to most British citizens ignoring what is going on in NI and letting the EU win. And that in turn will be trumpeted as another EU victory over the UK – the idea that we don’t care what the EU does to us because we don’t care about our own identity as a country.

    This means we have to start talking now about what measures we can take to impact and deter the EU, and without breaking any agreements we have signed. The obvious way is a *massive* boycott of EU products and tourism by the UK. I don’t mean a bottle of cheap plonque here and there, but a total avoidance of EU products – including cars and other industrial products, not just food and drink – and just as important a complete social ban on tourism in EU countries. Individual EU members have to learn that they will suffer nationally from what the EU Commission does.

    Planning for this, getting people used to the idea, and convincing people that this is both viable and necessary, will take time. And what better way for members of the ERG to continue to demonstrate that they are out in front of Government in their thinking about the EU?

    Reply
    1. mancunius
      June 9, 2021

      Many of us already are boycotting all EU products, and encouraging others to do so. There are some UK supermarket branches locally which are supplying only EU lines of e.g. tomatoes, mushrooms, apples/pears etc. They are evidently trying to offload the EU stuff, and hope customers will not notice the lack of choice being forced on them, but customers have twigged, and leave all those packs untouched. Interestingly the local German chains are more in touch with UK shoppers, unfailingly putting UK veg, dairy and meat on the shelves.
      We need more daily and weekly markets, and more choice. The UK supermarket chains are just trying to flog off the same old same old, rather than actively choosing what they buy in and promoting new supplier relationships.

      Reply
  48. steve
    June 8, 2021

    No doubt Johnson will comply with anything Biden demands of him.

    Reply
  49. steve
    June 8, 2021

    Jon Livesey

    “….but a total avoidance of EU products – including cars and other industrial products, not just food and drink – and just as important a complete social ban on tourism in EU countries. ”

    Johnson could have done this anyway, but won’t because he’s a remainer dressed as a leaver, always was. A con man, basically.

    Reply
    1. jon livesey
      June 8, 2021

      I’m not talking about Johnson, deliberately. Coming from Johnson, it would just be another move in the Brexit poker game and it would be played that way in World media. I am talking about what ordinary people, consumers, can do, which cannot be wished away.

      Reply
  50. No Longer Anonymous
    June 8, 2021

    Just to clarify (as I think you misunderstood me) I have not boycotted this site because of Andy, MiC’s or Newmania’s comments.

    I have boycotted it because the Tory Party seems to cave in to their every wish and ditch every promise it made to voters.

    The Tory Party abets illegal immigration during a global pandemic in which our citizens are treated like prison scum.

    And now the Tory Party is about to kill off vast swathes of UK business and employment in a futile attempt to see off the latest variant with restrictions whilst ignoring the vaccine effort and success.

    I urge all politicians to get out there and have a look.

    You have lost all credibility and your restrictions are now being openly ignored. To continue with restrictions on businesses will be through pure cowardice, and self preservation but will be viewed as being out of spite. We are not even allowed to discuss the real reason why the Government is being bullied into continuing lockdown – it is too politically sensitive, suffice to say we are being held hostage because of a special class of refuseniks.

    Anyway. Back to my boycott.

    Reply
  51. jon livesey
    June 8, 2021

    Just to be quite sure about claims that we signed up to *exclude* British chilled meat products from NI, I checked and the reverse is true.

    Under the Joint Declaration by the UK and EU dated 17December 2020 there is specific provision for the importation of chilled meat products from the UK to NI, including provisions for labelling. This provision lasts until 1 July of this year. And section 35 of the original Northern Ireland Protocol says that both sides are working towards a solution for the importation of chilled meat products, not towards banning them outright. The 17December 2020 Declaration is a temporary solution until the final mechanism for importation is agreed.

    If the EU now proposes to unilaterally ban chilled meat products from NI – as opposed to imposing tariff or labelling regulations on them – then they are changing that declaration, and this is a new provision, one that contradicts section 35 in the NIP, not something we originally signed up to.

    The answer “you signed up for this”, which is a favourite with Remainers, does not apply here, and is a fabrication, like so much else they post.

    Reply
    1. mancunius
      June 9, 2021

      ” both sides are working towards a solution for the importation of chilled meat products, not towards banning them outright”. I recall that an analogous wording was agreed in December 2017 (in Articles 49-51 of the Joint Report) for the NI customs border itself. But with such vague wording all the EU has to do is to do as it did then – refuse to agree to any further reasonable proposal and never compromise, so an outright ban is the result. The UK government should really learn how to forestall such elephant traps. The EU is waging a vicious war of attrition by other means – and it requires a tough and warlike response, not the pussyfooting we’ve seen so far.

      Reply
    2. a-tracy
      June 11, 2021

      jon, then why doesn’t Boris (or is he just a con man like Steve says) put the same ban on EU chilled meat products?

      mancunian is correct there is a lot of ‘pussyfooting’ around – Boris, concentrate on the deal instead of your personal standing with Mr Biden and sort this out this week or tell the public on a tv broadcast exactly what it is that the EU is making difficult to send to Northern Ireland.

      Reply
  52. Mike Wilson
    June 8, 2021

    Why do politicians make things so complicated? If a profit is made here, tax must be paid here. If a company wants to remit a management fee (or whatever they want to call it) to a parent company in a low tax jurisdiction, fine, that’s up to them – but only after tax has been paid here.

    I spent most of my life in business and always paid my taxes because didn’t want to go to jail. Tell all the multi-national companies to calculate their profit on goods or services sold here before remitting money abroad. If they break the rules, lock the directors up.

    Reply
  53. Lindsay McDougall
    June 9, 2021

    “Taxes should be low and everyone should pay them.” It’s not happening and we need to do something substantial about it. In particular, we need to ensure that multi-national companies pay their fair share. Turnover taxes are one way; another is to allocate their annual profits pro rata to turnover in the countries in which they operate and tax accordingly. It’s essentially the same. This will make life more difficult for multi-national companies; good. The scandal of non-dom status also needs tackling. HMRC should consider a person to be non-dom only if he/she spends 60 days or less in the UK in that year. We should also rationalise the fag end of our Empire. A territory should be a British Protectorate if and only if we are capable of defending it, and its citizens should contribute to the costs of that defence.

    Reply

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