David Davis was right to urge the EU to engage on the future relationship for their own sake

The EU is trying to stick with the idea that you can settle the Irish border issue without deciding the basis of our future trading. They  hope that by delaying trade talks they will get more money out of the UK. The Brexit Secretaary was right to offer no money and to remind them that a Free Trade deal is in their self interest.

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189 Comments

  1. am
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 7:30 am | Permalink

    The EU approach to the Irish border which indeed cannot be resolved without a trade deal does show they are desperate, actually desperate for our cash because they know they have real problems without it.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/11/16/eu-budget-wars-heat-brexit-reality-starts-hit-home/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw
    It would be relatively easy with a firm line to say they are not getting any money til we talk trade. After all it is one whole package that needs negotiated so holding up the talks because of payments makes it seem they are only interested in payment which may be the whole point.

    • Oggy
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

      Today the Irish Foreign mininster siad that Ireland would not allow EU/UK talks to move on to Trade talks because not enough progress has been made on the Irish border question !
      So if the EU insists on a hard border between Eire/NI when we go to WTO – then Ireland have only themselves to blame.

      • Hope
        Posted November 17, 2017 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

        The EU cannot give a mythical good deal that would encourage other countries to leave the EU. There is already widespread discontent and contempt for it. To show a country would benefit from leaving the EU would sign its own death warrant.

        It is more worrying that the MP traitors in Westminster want to prevent a leaving date and to give our taxes to the EU in the desperate attempt to stop our freedom and allowing them to make laws on our behalf judge by our courts on our all citizens living in this country. They are trying to prevent what they are paid for! We had a vote to leave and there are a lot of MPs trying to prevent the will of the people by making all sorts of specious arguments and claims. Civil service ad associated bodies doing the same. It is an utter disgrace where one would expect the PM to take decisive action to impose her govt policy. When can we expect such leadership from her instead of capitulation and concessions? Same for Davis.

    • Leslie Singleton
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

      Dear am–Mere talking trade doesn’t get near doing it–It must be agreed and signed but even then what is to stop the rEU simply changing its mind?

      • rose
        Posted November 17, 2017 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

        Remember how they did the dirty on us over the rebate? They took half of it in exchange for CAP reform. They have kept that part of the rebate ever since and we have never had CAP reform. They are not to be trusted in negotiations over money.

        • Andy
          Posted November 18, 2017 at 10:51 am | Permalink

          Totally agree with you. The Continental Europeans cannot to trusted to keep or indeed honour their word. It is mad to offer a penny unless and until they have signed a water tight free trade deal.

  2. Mark B
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 7:52 am | Permalink

    David Davis MP should concentrate on what is best for the UK.

    Off topic

    Let us hope that an orderly transition of power in Zimbabwe occurs. Independence had not turned out well for them.

    • Ian Wragg
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 9:11 am | Permalink

      Independence hasn’t turned out well for most of Africa.
      I worked there during the 70s and they were aid junckies just the same as today.
      South Africa has gone backwards.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 12:23 pm | Permalink

      Theresa May’s high profile anti Russia agenda seems totally misguided too. Why on earth did she go off on this very foolish line in the speech? Far more important issues like stopping the courts and Mathew Taylor killing the gig economy and deterring investment.

    • rose
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

      The first case I can remember of a people being made to vote again until they voted the “right” way. Independence under the man they voted for the first time (Bishop Abel Muzorewa) might have worked out for them.

  3. alan jutson
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 8:00 am | Permalink

    I think there is slow realisation in some parts of the EU, with some EU politicians, that a WTO Deal is worse for them than us, and that free trade for both sides would be preferable..

    We need to remember that to pay for trade, is NOT a free trade deal.

    We must not falter or waiver, but stay strong and refuse to pay any more than has been offered, which is already rather too generous in my view.

  4. Lifelogic.
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 8:00 am | Permalink

    Indeed he was .

    More climate alarmist drivel from the BBC yesterday on the radio 4 today programme the propaganda is incesant, It is an outrage that the BBC can keep pushing complete, alarmist nonsense on this issue . Often using the phrase “scientist say that”and “that is not in any doubt” the “only plausible cause is human” … most sensible scientist say nothing of the sort. Predicting thousands of deaths due to sea levels changes and the likes with no one putting the sensible alternative view or questioning the alarmist religion.

    There is an excellent YouTube video on the “Economics Behind Windmills” by Lord Monckton I found last night. Just why are we building these absurdities with tax payer subsidies. They do not even save any significant CO2. He refers particularly to the Mad and hugely expensive Heritage Cost Dorset scheme. Why does the BBC fail us so badly on this issue?

    • DaveM
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 9:25 am | Permalink

      LL. In my opinion the BBC has become like a leftish version of the Daily Star with a few lines from the Guardian to make them them sound authoritative. Not worth getting riled about. When Serena Williams’marriage is in their top ten stories ita quite apparent that the BBC specialises in non-news.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted November 17, 2017 at 7:59 pm | Permalink

        Then endless reporting of climate alarmist propaganda by the BBC as a “scientific truth” without any sensible questioning is an outrage.

        Thanks goodness Trump is at least sound and rational on this issue.

        • stred
          Posted November 18, 2017 at 7:54 am | Permalink

          They even had a Fear II plug on Rick Stein’s programme. He was in California and they found a US fruit picker with a law degree who said Trump’s wall would be a disaster. Presumably, he thought he would have to find some more US pickers like himself. Then Rick said he knew growers in Cornwall who would have to leave their produce to rot in the fields, forgetting that permits will be allowed where essential- and perhaps a bit of automation would help with some sleeping snowflakes dragged out of bed to work it.

          • Lifelogic
            Posted November 20, 2017 at 8:42 am | Permalink

            Indeed it climate alarmism and remainer propaganda is everywhere on the BBC, in the state sector, the legal profession and even the school exam syllabus and academia.

    • Richard1
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 9:57 am | Permalink

      I listened to it also. The headline was that sea levels could rise by 50cm during the C21st. As I understand they rose by 30cm in the C20th, are rising by c. 3mm p.a., And have been more or less on average since the end of the last ice age. So is this really a disaster? The interviewee went on to say the major threat is a melting of the Greenland ice sheet, but said this could take centuries or even millennia. At no point did the interviewer ask whether these vaguely alarming forecasts were worth turning the world economy upside down for. Nor of course was there any reference to the recent finding that climate models have running c. 2x ‘too warm’.

    • Bob
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 10:05 am | Permalink

      MPs will debate two petitions about the TV Licence fee on Monday (20/11 16:30hrs).

      You can watch it at:http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Commons

      A transcript will be published the following day at hansard.parliament.uk.

      You can find out more about the debate here:
      http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/petitions-committee/news-parliament-2017/petition-debate-tv-licence-fee/

      Hopefully, this will be a pivotal moment in British history when funding of mass indoctrination by coercion is shown the red card.

      • Mark B
        Posted November 17, 2017 at 7:10 pm | Permalink

        Whilst one hopes that it will be the end of the Telly Tax I somehow doubt it. This has yo be government policy and, the only way it will is if it becomes a vote winner, which alas it is not.

    • Lifelogic.
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 11:19 am | Permalink

      Not thousands of deaths but millions it seems ! What about those lives saved by more food production from the CO2 and the milder winters if the warming ever happens. No significant warming now for 19 years anyway.

      These alarmist experts got the computer models and the historical temp data fraud all wrong. Many are guilty of gross scientific fraud at public expense.

    • well prepared
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 7:42 pm | Permalink

      LL.re your 8.00am post.
      You’re beginning to get it. Watch a few more youtube vids about what’s really going on. Climate Change being a tiny part of IT.

  5. Tabulazero
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 8:02 am | Permalink

    Your prediction that the EU business interest would labour to help the UK in the Brexit negotiations is not materialising despite your claims of the contrary.

    In the meantime, I read with some amusement that Grimsby, which voted 70% for Leave, would like an exemption from Brexit for itself.

    Haven’t the Leavers learned by now that they will not have their cake and eat it ?

    Reply Wait and see. There are 26 months to go on these negotiations. Continental business is not keen to lose tariff free access to the UK

    • Anonymous
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 9:18 am | Permalink

      Tabulazero

      All who took part in the referendum pledged to respect the result. The winning line was passed by the agreed margin convincingly.

      The EU isn’t about democracy so your difficulty with this (as an EU supporter) is unsurprising.

      I don’t recall any Leaver saying ‘cake and eat it.’ That was a silly remark by a staffer.

    • Richard1
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 10:00 am | Permalink

      Good to see international banks have found a work-around to possible protectionist regulation by the EU post Brexit aimed at forcing traders to sit in the EU – by using London branches of EU subsids.

      • libertarian
        Posted November 18, 2017 at 12:32 pm | Permalink

        Richard1

        All the banks have always had offices in every EU country for more than 100 years in most cases . This type of nonsense about Financial trading is typical from the remain camp and their complete ignorance on international, global banking

    • Roy Grainger
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 10:34 am | Permalink

      “In the meantime, I read with some amusement that Grimsby, which voted 70% for Leave, would like an exemption from Brexit for itself.”

      You read it wrong then. Saying “Grimsby would like an exemption from Brexit” is a gross misrepresentation. One spokesman for one lobbying group suggested that in the event of a WTO no deal Grimsby should have free trade status for seafood so they wouldn’t have to pay EU import duties of 20%. Now, you might wonder why Grimsby is so concerned about EU duties (under WTO) for fish IMPORTS ? It is because being in the EU has so devastated the UK fishing fleet that 90% of all fish sold from Grimsby has in fact been imported from abroad rather than caught. Anyway, as Mrs Merkel made a promise to her own fishermen during her recent unsuccessful election campaign that they would retain “full access” to UK waters one assumes the final deal will cover the seafood trade to everyones satisfaction.

    • Tabulazero
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 10:36 am | Permalink

      Neither are they keen to see the single-market unravels as everyone goes for a “special deal”.

      So basically it will boil down to
      – No deal.
      – Canada.
      – Norway.

      If the UK is fine with one of the above it should make its opinion known.

      • alan jutson
        Posted November 17, 2017 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

        Tabulazero

        Please explain “No deal” to me, what do YOU think it means ?

      • Hope
        Posted November 17, 2017 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

        Lord King and Lord Lawson are correct the UK cannot be given a good deal. The other countries would leave. I do not know what mandate Davis and May have to make the Florence speech or concessions already made. We voted to leave the EU in its entirety, our borders, our laws, our courts our money.

        There is no legal right to side line trade talks, Davis has allowed this. There is no legal or moral right to pay a penny to leave or have access to the single market, there is no right give EU citizens living in this country oversight by the ECJ! We voted leave and do not want any aspect of EU interference over our country. no deal is better than what May offered in her and the EU’s Florence speech.

      • NickC
        Posted November 17, 2017 at 11:01 pm | Permalink

        Tabulazero, You forgot the WTO deal.

      • libertarian
        Posted November 18, 2017 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

        Tabulazero

        I love your posts with each one you put another nail in the coffin of remain by displaying your total ignorance of international trade and business

        Yes we are absolutely fine with what you call “no deal” but is in fact exactly the same deal as more than 100 countries currently have with the EU including I might add the EU’s 2 biggest export markets USA and China.

        • Tasman
          Posted November 19, 2017 at 7:26 am | Permalink

          This is simply false. The EU has dozens of deals with the US and China. Educate yourself here – http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/.
          The UK loses the benefit of every single one of these deals when it leaves the EU. This is why Brexit is the biggest step back from free trade that any country has ever taken.

          • NickC
            Posted November 19, 2017 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

            Tasman, That is simply false. Though it is a Remain favourite. The RTAs are minor regional modifications of the overarching WTO system. Nice to have but not that important. And we would probably want to modify those that we don’t novate anyway. The major benefit is the original WTO rule (without the RTAs), from which we will benefit from day one.

          • Edward2
            Posted November 19, 2017 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

            You assume no transfer deals will happen Tasman
            China and America have already said they want to do such deals to achieve a smooth continuation of trade between us and them

    • ian wragg
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 12:02 pm | Permalink

      I do hope that is only 16 months not 26.
      Why is the BBC pedalling the theory that £50 billion has been agreed in principle as a severance payment.
      If you pay that for beginning trade negotiations you are finished as a government.
      There is also rumour that German BDI are pressing for Britain to get border and immigration controls in exchange for staying in this decaying monster.
      Riots in France and Belgium this week, not reported on the TV.

      • Bob
        Posted November 17, 2017 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

        It’s interesting how the broadcast media wear rose tinted specs when reporting on the EU; they just parrot any demands or criticism from Brussels without any critical or factual analysis.

        The EU need to clarify the legal basis of their claim and support it with a detailed list of assets & liabilities.

        • Mitchel
          Posted November 18, 2017 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

          See also why they would like to see RT (which frequently shows images of unrest on the Continent)closed down.

  6. Peter Wood
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 8:02 am | Permalink

    Good Morning,
    If reports in the MSM are correct that Mrs. May is considering giving more money away for ‘a promise of trade talks’, then the Conservative Party might as well retire now, because they won’t exist in the next parliament.
    DD at least has a business background and should know how to negotiate these things, Mrs. May, with no commercial experience, seems to keep undermining him.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 9:30 am | Permalink

      And then pay more still, an annual fee, year after year in perpetuity, to buy access to the EU market. Not for any form of membership of the EU Single Market, just access to it. Because obviously we cannot expect to run a massive trade deficit with the EU without paying for that privilege, that would be having our cake and eating it and quite ridiculous. And Theresa May and David Davis will smile and laugh and agree to pay whatever the EU demands, and Anna Soubry and Dominic Grieve will say that it is only right …

      On the BBC this morning there was mention of a new TUC study on the increased time that workers are having to spend travelling to and from work. There was no mention that average commute times may have been increased by the additional congestion caused by uncontrolled and unlimited mass immigration, which the TUC stubbornly supports for political reasons even though it is obviously unlikely to be in the economic interests of British trade union members.

      Apparently it works out as an average of 11 hours 42 minutes more per worker being spent on commuting during 2014 compared to 2004:

      https://www.tuc.org.uk/news/number-commuters-spending-more-two-hours-travelling-and-work-72-last-decade-says-tuc

      which corresponds to 0.7% of the average 1700 hours a year actually worked:

      https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm

      which is, I take it, the work that generates our national GDP.

      So, bang, straight away that wipes out most of the supposed economic benefit of the EU Single Market to the UK economy, which is about 1% of GDP.

    • Anonymous
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 9:37 am | Permalink

      Frederick Forsyth is worth reading today. The need for a ‘war’ cabinet and a clear-out.

      If we are not leaving the EU properly people will know. Then it will be Project Stop Voting Ever Again.

      In that case let us be the first EU nation that abandons national governance.

      Imagine the savings !

    • Iain Gill
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 9:42 am | Permalink

      They are probably dead as dodos anyway if they hammer diesel drivers and fail to do something about immigration

      At least 5 years of Corbyn would force the rest of politics to get its act together

    • Fed Up and Angry
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 12:26 pm | Permalink

      Well said.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

      Mrs May certainly seem to have no grasp of business whatsoever. She is more concerned about absurd gender pay gap reporting (so she does not understand free markets either) and killing the gig economy with her silly Mathew Taylor Report.
      She even talks about businesses paying their “fair” share of tax. “Fair” has nothing whatever to do with it. Companies pay what is legally due under threat of imprisonment.

      If you want higher productivity and higher wages get the state of the way, get cheap energy, go for easy hire and fire and cut the state down to size.

      As an example I have just had to spend about £500 on an entirely pointless tree report to accompany a planning application. What a waste of time and money and pointless delay. Pushing up the cost of the build and creating a pointless job for someone. Doubtless they will ask for a bat, newt and slow worm one next! They they wonder why there is a shortage of affordable houses.

      So very many pointless jobs for parasites in the UK.

  7. Richard1
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 8:07 am | Permalink

    It’s essential the govt walks away and focuses on preparations for no deal if there is no clear move to talks on a full trade deal after the EU council in Dec. If the U.K. has its bluff called again it will be impossible to strike a deal – the EU will demand more and more.

    Separately, what was all this fuss about enshrining the date in law? It didn’t seem necessary to me and now it seems the govt are to climb down. Let’s fight the battles we need to win.

    • Roy Grainger
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 10:39 am | Permalink

      Having the date in law is important. The Remainers say having it in law means the leaving date can’t be extended “a bit” to give time to reach an agreement. Once that point is conceded then “a bit” can easily be replaced with “for a year” or “for five years” or “until after the next electon”or “forever”. That’s why they are resisting so strongly on this.

  8. Peter Miller
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 8:14 am | Permalink

    ‘Hello Mr Davis”, says Mr Barnier. “I’m sorry to hear you are no longer renewing your club membership, if you would like to come to my office we can settle your account”.
    “I have settled my bar bill” says Mr Davis..
    “Ah yes Mr Davis”, says Mr Barnier, “but there are other matters that need settlement”
    In Mr Barniers office Mr Davis explains that he has settled his bar bill so wonders what else he can possibly owe the Golf Club? “Well Mr Davis” begins Mr Barnier, “you did agree to buy one of our Club Jackets”.
    “Yes” agrees Mr Davis “I did agree to buy a jacket but I haven’t received it yet”. “As soon as you supply the jacket I will send you a cheque for the full amount”.
    “That will not be possible” explains Mr Barnier. “As you are no longer a club member you will not be entitled to buy one of our jackets”!
    “But you still want me to pay for it” exclaims Mr Davis.
    “Yes” says Mr Barnier, “That will be £500 for the jacket. “There is also your bar bill”.
    “But I’ve already settled my bar bill” says Mr Davis.
    “Yes” says Mr Barnier, “but as you can appreciate, we need to place our orders from the Brewery in advance to ensure our bar is properly stocked”.. “You regularly used to spend at least £50 a week in the bar so we have placed orders with the brewery accordingly for the coming year”. “You therefore owe us £2600 for the year”..
    “Will you still allow me to have these drinks?” asks Mr Davis. “No of course not Mr Davis”. “You are no longer a club member!” says Mr Barnier.
    “Next is your restaurant bill” continues Mr Barnier. “In the same manner we have to make arrangements in advance with our catering suppliers”. “Your average restaurant bill was in the order of £300 a month, so we’ll require payment of £3600 for the next year”.
    “I don’t suppose you’ll be letting me have these meals either” asks Mr Davis.
    “No, of course not” says an irritated Mr Barnier, “you are no longer a club member!”
    “Then of course” Mr Barnier continues, “there are repairs to the clubhouse roof”.
    “Clubhouse roof” exclaims Mr Davis, “What’s that got to do with me?”
    “Well it still needs to be repaired and the builders are coming in next week”, your share of the bill is £2000″.
    “I see” says Mr Davis, “anything else?”.
    “Now you mention it” says Mr Barnier, “there is Fred the Barman’s pension”. “We would like you to pay £5 a week towards Fred’s pension when he retires next month”. “He’s not well you know so I doubt we’ll need to ask you for payment for longer than about five years, so £1300 should do it”. “This brings your total bill to £10,000” says Mr Barnier.
    “Let me get this straight” says Mr Davis, “you want me to pay £500 for a jacket you won’t let me have, £2600 for beverages you won’t let me drink and £3600 for food you won’t let me eat, all under a roof I won’t be allowed under and not served by a bloke who’s going to retire next month!”
    “Yes, it’s all perfectly clear and quite reasonable” says Mr Barnier.
    (Go whistle ed)!” says Mr Davis
    Now we understand what Brexit is all about.

    • Mockbeggar
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 9:33 am | Permalink

      Nice one, Peter. Have you kept the copyright?

    • jonP
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 9:35 am | Permalink

      Peter- all very well but the EU is not a golf club- it is probably the largest richest economic bloc on the planet with over 500 million consumers all with huge spending power- the same club we want to leave for our own misguided nostalgia and misplaced notions of english greatness- but to have new trading arrangements as some would like on our own terms, having our cake and eating it, with bespoke type cherry picking- I can tell you now it’s not going to happen- as Tusk once famously said there will be no cakes on the table for anyone only salt and vinegar. Comparing the EU with golf cub membership hardly counts- sorry to burst your bubble!

      • Jagman84
        Posted November 17, 2017 at 8:59 pm | Permalink

        The 27 member states may well be a 500 million consumer bloc but the EU machine is a power-obsessed, democracy-destroying, parasite organisation. We could all survive its abolition and be all the richer for it! Regarding bubbles, how is it inside yours?

      • lo
        Posted November 17, 2017 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

        Richest block? Most of its members are net recipients of our cash. Take 70 million off your figure when we leave.

      • rose
        Posted November 17, 2017 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

        Are you a Brussels bot?

    • Peter Parsons
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 10:55 am | Permalink

      Or,

      Davis: “I’m leaving the golf club and not renewing my membership”.
      Barnier: “Ok, your choice. You’re free do to so once you’ve settled up what you’ve already committed to.”
      Davis: “While I may be leaving, I still want full access to play the course on the same deal as members (tee times, green fees etc.)”.
      Barnier: “Err, it doesn’t quite work like that”.
      Davis: “Plus I want to retain full access to the members’ bar and to be able to buy drinks at members’ prices.”
      Barnier: “I’m really not quite sure you understand what leaving actually means.”
      Davis: “But it’s in your interests to let me keep the membership benefits I like once I’m no longer a member .”
      Barnier: “Clubs have rules. Either you are a member or you are not. If you want the benefits, you need to keep being signed up to all the other aspects of being a member.”
      Davis: “But I don’t want to do that, and anyway, as I already told you, in my view what I want is in the club’s interest.”
      Barnier: “The club has a different view. Thank you for your membership and good luck.”

      • stred
        Posted November 18, 2017 at 8:17 am | Permalink

        PP. Davis. Ok, there’s a bigger club down the road where I can play as a day member for a small charge and if you want to use my pub I only charge a small fee.

        • Peter Parsons
          Posted November 18, 2017 at 6:19 pm | Permalink

          That’s fine, make a choice. Davis, however, wants both on the grounds that “those are the arrangements I have as a member, so it’s surely best to let me keep them when I’m not”.

          You can’t both recognise the indivisibility of the four freedons, yet also try to divide them in to ones you want and ones you don’t, which is what Davis did in Germany.

      • Edward2
        Posted November 18, 2017 at 9:09 am | Permalink

        It’s a very odd golf club
        28 members
        Only 9 pay in any money.
        The other members take money out.
        All get full membership rights and get a vote.

    • John Fitzgerald
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 11:05 am | Permalink

      Wonderfully explained! Send a copy to Barnier!

    • chris f
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 11:21 am | Permalink

      🙂 Very good…this should be sent to J-C Juncker. Mind you, he’d probably think that it does make perfect sense?!

  9. Denis Cooper
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 8:30 am | Permalink

    If an opinion pollster were to ask me whether I was happy with the way that the government has been conducting the Brexit negotiations I would now be part of the large discontented majority. However if the pollster wished to explore further I would say that my rapidly increasing anger with what is going on originates with the appalling behaviour of the EU leaders and only touches the UK government because our ministers are still prepared to smile and tolerate us being taken for bloody fools. I might have thought that over half a century of dealing with these people would have been more than enough to show that you will get nowhere by trying to crawl up their backsides, and if memories are not that long they might at least stretch back to the contemptuous way that they treated David Cameron when he tried to negotiate some minor reforms.

    • Chris S
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 8:58 am | Permalink

      So true.

      Anybody who has read Adults In The Room knows that Yanis Varoufakis believes that the only way to deal with the EU is to stand up to them and say no.

      He should know !

      Regrettably the Greek PM, Alexis Tsipras, didn’t listen to him either.

    • Andy
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 11:43 am | Permalink

      What did you expect? The job of the leader of an EU country is to look after the interests of his or her country. It is not to pander to the increasingly irrational whims of Brexiteers. All of this was entirely predictable – it is amusing that you find it annoying.

      The best bit, though, is what happens next. If you’re angry now then it does not bode well for the forthcoming Brexit car crash which you voted for.

      • Tad Davison
        Posted November 17, 2017 at 8:43 pm | Permalink

        Another project fear remoaner making glib and dire predictions.

        As it would seem your post applies equally to me, I’ll give you a sporting chance to change my mind. What makes you so certain Brexit will not succeed?

        Oh, and have you ever heard of Patrick Minford and read his work?

        You might like to do a bit of research before you respond!

      • Jagman84
        Posted November 17, 2017 at 9:05 pm | Permalink

        Absolute nonsense and you know it. The car crash will be the sales of German cars. I hope you are being well paid to disseminate your inane drivel. If you are (like many others), they’ll be asking for a refund!

      • NickC
        Posted November 17, 2017 at 11:07 pm | Permalink

        Andy, You haven’t explained why you want to sell out the entire country for the 11% of GDP we earn from exporting to the EU (latest Pink Book figures, ex Rotterdam effect).

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted November 18, 2017 at 9:11 am | Permalink

        What “irrational whims” might they be?

        There is irrationality, but on the part of your friends in the EU.

    • Tad Davison
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 6:08 pm | Permalink

      Excellent post Denis, and I absolutely concur.

      Your frustration is palpable, as indeed my own must be. The UK is in a very advantageous position, but our politicians aren’t fighting hard enough. There can only be two reasons for that. The first possibility is they don’t really want the UK to leave, and are just out to procrastinate for as long as possible in a way Wilkins Micawber would be familiar with, in case something turns up to delay Brexit or cancel it altogether. Alternatively, and I’m being charitable, they’re just not up to the job, in which case, we need to get people on the case who can get a grip.

      The arrogance of Westminster politicians is astounding. They act as if they know best. It’s about time we burst their bubble and exposed them to the real world the rest of us inhabit. We want out, we voted out, and now they have to get us out without more ado to ensure we keep that advantage, not let it be watered down, or subscribe to something that costs us a fortune!

      Tad

    • alan jutson
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 6:43 pm | Permalink

      Dennis

      Agreed

  10. Mark Riley
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 8:31 am | Permalink

    “They hope that by delaying trade talks they will get more money out of the UK.”
    they seem to have read Treseme about right if reports are to be believed. why is no-one making the constructive case for a WTO deal, lower food prices, flexibility on Corporation tax, speed of execution, nett gain in Tariffs from EU trade, no ransom bill, no extension of membership payments, free trade deals we can sign up to now with implementation when we leave, potential early departure saving yet more money, fishing grounds, immigration control etc etc. Thus Government, self centred, supine, weak, pathetic and seemingly incredibly challenged both morally and intelectually.

  11. Atlantic Span
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 8:32 am | Permalink

    That’s strange, because I’ve just been listening to a German commentator on The Today Programme saying that in principle he’s already committed to paying £50 billion.

    • gregL
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 9:53 am | Permalink

      Yes that’s what I heard it will cost about 50 billion and also that the EU border question will be fixed to the Irish Sea leaving NI behind in the Customs Union even if GB goes completely outside. If this is not agreed then there will be no consensus from the EU27 for a completion of the exit business- it will be put on hold.

      Also have heard about the movement of EU people and UK people moving through europe there will be no change- only a recognition of the fact that people will not be able to live and work where they please- for that they will require permission from local councils and it will very much depend if services available like schools hospitals fire services etc are there to be able to cope- makes sense. We’re nearly there now with the exit talks- all should be finished ready for the December 14th summit.

    • eeyore
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

      And Donald Tusk has demanded more money within a fortnight or the deal’s off. It is incomprehensible why HMG is not making hay with this sort of thing. The British public love nothing more than getting indignant with Johnnie Foreigner. Johnnie F seems desperate to oblige.

      Hello? Hello? Is anyone awake in Downing Street’s PR bunker?

      • Iain Moore
        Posted November 17, 2017 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

        I have been wondering if anybody is in the No 10 bunker at all. If showing a united front against the EU is important, especially when at a critical point in the (non) negotiations , which bright spark in No 10 thought it a really wizard idea to have Parliament tearing its self apart on the Withdrawal bill at the same time.

  12. Bert Young
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 8:45 am | Permalink

    There is nothing to lose by stating that we will not pay ; avoiding this position merely invites the view that we will surrender .

    • georgeP
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

      Bert,, No pay..means no say.. no say in the future..they the EU27 hold the cards. DD has been trying his old bluff game but it has not worked. Boris has been out and about knocking on the EU27 back doors.. again no good and Fox has done his bit in India Asia and places far away again with nothing to report. This is not about surrender- this is not the war- it is about coming to a sensible position considering the dire straits we now find ourselves in thanks to messrs Farage and the other tory right wing extremists who peddled us a bunch of lies.

      • Bert Young
        Posted November 18, 2017 at 9:58 am | Permalink

        georgeP . Your response clearly indicates a warped view . The EU does not ” hold the cards ” neither does it recognise on which side its bread is buttered . My understanding of the news today shows a rapid decline of cohesion amongst EU member countries and a great fear of the mess if its economy without our contributions.

      • Hope
        Posted November 18, 2017 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

        Utter rubbish.

      • Mark B
        Posted November 18, 2017 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

        Utter tosh !

        I do not want a say in the EU 27 no more than I want a say in the UK.

        We cannot do trade deals whilst in the EU. Most of the world gets on fine without them. The EU does not have a trade deal with the USA the UK ‘s larger customer.

        • Mark B
          Posted November 18, 2017 at 6:10 pm | Permalink

          Sorry should say

          …no more then I want THEM to…

  13. Monza 71
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 8:50 am | Permalink

    The Government really needs to hold its nerve at this crucial stage. If David Davis is right, behind the scenes, a majority of medium sized members of the 27 are putting pressure on Merkel and Macron to allow the talks to move on. We already know that the German car Industry is becoming increasingly worried as every day passes.

    Meanwhile, press reports are starting to appear about the growing conflict between net contributors and recipients over the next EU budget round. The Commission is issuing tentative proposals to cut programmes and demand more from the very small number of net contributors and this is not going down well at all. Only the distribution of huge sums of money to the recipient countries really holds the EU together and I think UK politicians severely underestimate the risk to the cohesion of the Bloc that losing our contribution will cause.

    For all these reasons I believe the balance of power in the negotiations is moving in our direction. We should most definitely not offer any more money and we should make it very clear that any offer of additional funding will only be made when WE are satisfied with the trade deal on offer. Otherwise we walk away onto WTO rules, paying them nothing whatsoever more than the very small sum that is legally due after March 2019.

    I’m very pleased to see that Merkel is having great difficulty in assembling a workable coalition Government. The real possibility now exists of new elections and the CDU and particularly the CSU will almost certainly demand she stands down if that happens.

    It is indeed true that all political lives ends in failure.

    Except Nigel Farage’s, obviously.

    • Mark B
      Posted November 18, 2017 at 6:16 pm | Permalink

      There is no trade deal. This is just a ruse by our government to cover the fact that they are quite wrongly giving monies away when we do not have to. If we owe the EU monies let them tell us what it is. We can the look at it and agree or disagree.

  14. Denis Cooper
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 8:50 am | Permalink

    I read here:

    https://euobserver.com/social/139909

    “European leaders are meeting in Sweden to discuss social issues as part of an effort to boost jobs and growth.”

    Part of which “effort to boost jobs and growth” apparently involves deliberately delaying talks on post-Brexit trade with the UK until it has become too late to sort out the bespoke, deep and special, minimum friction, trade relationship that the UK government has been clearly saying that it wants for more than a year now.

    And they will behave in this idiotic and perverse way contrary to many provisions in their own EU treaties as well as other international commitments, as detailed here:

    http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2017/08/30/mr-draghi-wants-more-free-trade-so-why-not-accept-the-uk-offer/#comment-886295

    When is the UK government going to start pointing out to the world at large that it is the EU which is being unreasonable and obstructive, and lay it on the line publicly that unless this changes we will not even waste our time on attempting trade negotiations?

    And when are the silly Remoaners going to understand that you can take a horse to water but if it doesn’t want to drink then there is probably little point in keeping it there for a bit longer just in case it changes its mind?

  15. Brian Tomkinson
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 9:00 am | Permalink

    I am not encouraged by noises coming out of negotiations and the House of Commons. The government is now said to be prepared to drop the amendment to put the leaving date on the face of the EU Withdrawal Bill. More money is said to have been agreed to be paid to the EU. For what? Some like William Hague and Michael Portillo have talked of doing this to obtain access to the single market. Which other country has to pay a fee in order to even talk about free trade? Why does no one ever ask what the EU is prepared to pay the UK for access to our market?
    There are too many MPs who want to frustrate the will of the people as expressed in the referendum. They either want to reverse the decision or want an arrangement that is virtually the same as being members but having no say. The mendacity and duplicity is nauseating and they are aided and abetted on a daily basis by the broadcast media which is vehemently anti-Brexit.

  16. Michael
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 9:03 am | Permalink

    We must NOT agree to the ECJ having jurisdiction over the UK after March 2019 during a transition/implementation period or otherwise. Until the ECJ ceases to have such jurisdiction we will not have left the EU. A foreign court ( for that is what it will be after March 2019) has no business making decisions that have the potential to profoundly affect the UK and it’s citizens.

    All right thinking politicians should vote against that kind of deal.

  17. Andy
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 9:05 am | Permalink

    The Brexit Secretary – a man who is putting his party politics before our prosperity – warns the EU not to put politics before prosperity.

    It’s an entirely predictable farce.

    One day someone will get very rich making a sitcom about Brexit. And all they will have to do is to recount what actually happened.

    Younger people and friendly nations around the world are looking at the Brexiteers and genuinely wondering if they are deranged or just stupid. It is tragic.

    • Jagman84
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 9:09 pm | Permalink

      More nonsense! You are persistent, I will give you that. Is it buy one get one free today?

    • NickC
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

      Andy, Most countries are much more nationalistic than the UK is. They can’t understand why the Remains are intent on giving away our country. They can’t understand why we put up with the sort of garbage the EU dishes out. Neither can I.

      • Andy
        Posted November 18, 2017 at 8:11 am | Permalink

        What garbage would this be? The garbage which protects your rights as a worker or consumer? The garbage which protects our environment or makes our products better and safer? The garbage which has brought an ever growing part of our continent a long period peace for the first time in centuries? The garbage which has seen democracy expand, life expectancy increase and your children’s opportunities skyrocket? Yup – EU membership has all been pretty naff hasn’t it?

        • NickC
          Posted November 18, 2017 at 7:24 pm | Permalink

          Andy, The garbage I was referring to is the threats and prevarication by the EU in the negotiations. So you rather missed the point.

          Then you forgot to attach any evidence to your list of supposed EU advantages. Remember that more legislation does not mean better legislation. We are perfectly capable of passing laws to suit ourselves without needing to hold onto the EU. Better anyway than laws made on the whim of EU bureaucrats and corporate lobbyists in Brussels. And at far less cost.

          The relative peace on the Continent has been secured by both war exhaustion of European nations, and by NATO. Not the EU.

          The EU is so far from being democratic, it is anti-democratic. We don’t elect c90% of MEPs, we don’t elect c90% of Ministers, and we don’t elect the Commission at all. I have never had a vote on any of the 9 “Presidents”. Have you?

          Life expectancy and opportunities have increased in many parts of the world and are down to increased wealth, and such factors as good hygiene, education and health care. So clearly not as a result of the EU.

          The EU is corrupt and dysfunctional. The Euro has been a catastrophe for southern Europe, and has allowed German mercantilism, to our cost. The sooner the EU collapses the better for all of us.

    • anon
      Posted November 18, 2017 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

      When did the last net contributing country join the EU?

      Which net recipient countries will in he next few short years now change their minds? and will the EU give them a goodwill payment to help them on there way?

  18. Chris
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 9:12 am | Permalink

    Please could you explain, Mr Redwood, why David Davis has backtracked on Brexit and appears to be selling us out. Faisal Islam probably cannot believe his luck:

    Faisal Islam tweets Nov 16
    “The entire speech bar “we will leave the SM/ CU based on what people voted for” is pretty consistent with more or less staying in the SM/CU

    Faisal Islam
    “Take back control is now “Greater control over our borders. Greater control over our laws” – which is an invitation to be imaginative”

    Also, Faisal I quotes from Davis and his evidence to the Lords Committee about the ECJ – Davis states that we will be under the ECJ during the implementation period – “Mr Barnier has made that clear” was his reply to a question on the subject. This will apply for the transition period and then new arrangements will have to be discussed with the Commission possibly resulting in some sort of joint court. What is going on, Mr Redwood, other than a capitulation?

  19. Peter Martin
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 9:27 am | Permalink

    Quite right. It’s simply not possible to treat all issues consecutively and independently of each other. For example, can anyone explain how it will be possible to settle the nature of the UK/Irish border unless we first know what the trading relationship will be?

    Irish trade with the EU at present mainly is transported, using Ro-Ro trucks, via Wales. It’s quicker than the longer sea crossing directly to France. This, potentially, means travelling across two hard borders after Brexit. It’s not just the Northern Irish border which is the problem. It may well even turn out to be the lesser problem.

    So it has to be in Ireland’s and the EU’s interest to move on to trade talks much more quickly than they seem to be prepared to. Ireland is likely to suffer more than the UK from any hard border.

    • stred
      Posted November 18, 2017 at 8:53 am | Permalink

      The UK can zero rate Irish food produce and have electronic instant passage at Holyhead. If the Irish want tariff-free Nissans and Land Rovers they can either leave the EU and save themselves a lot of contributions or buy them nearly new from NI car supermarkets.

  20. Original Richard
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    Mr. Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, has recently said that “London’s insistence on leaving the single market and customs union makes a basic free-trade deal the only option.”

    Mr. Barnier is absolutely correct and it is only the EU supporters in the UK who believe that anything else is feasible and only because they would be happy for the four freedoms, in particular, free movement, to continue.

    Leavers have long ago realised that anything other than a very basic and limited FTA will be offered by the EU and many, if not most, believe that since the UK has a trading deficit with the EU of £100bn/year that WTO terms would be actually beneficial to the UK in the long-term.

    This is why it would be clearly against the UK taxpayers’ interest for the UK government to agree to any advance payment to the EU ahead of trade talks.

    We’re not going to get anything in return for an advance payment which is why the EU are refusing to discuss trade before receiving the money.

  21. Iain Moore
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 9:47 am | Permalink

    I watched Peter Shore’s speech at the Oxford Union, and though made 40 years ago is still very current now, not just in the project fear of the EU supporters, but in how they set about to suck the resolve and self esteem from a nation, this I fear is what we are seeing now.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHIidBgwyTA

    A two year exit has been extended to 4 years, without an end date. Vast sums of our money has shoveled in their direction that has achieved absolutely nothing but for even greater demands. We have subordinated ourselves to ECJ . Brexit? What Brexit? Mrs May hasn’t just blinked she has got on her knees. I have always been shocked at the level of defeatism running through the British establishment and the level of humiliation they are willing tolerate, in fact I don’t believe we have ever found a level of humiliation they won’t tolerate . I just hoped that we could get to Brexit and reestablished some national pride and self esteem, but it seems Brexit is slipping away from us as we are being set up for an never ending non departure from the EU, in which time they hope to suck all resolve and determination from us in order for us to drop it.

  22. JimS
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 9:53 am | Permalink

    I don’t understand why the UK appears to have accepted the EU framework for talks.
    Having accepted that the UK is leaving there should be a final outcome that is beneficial to both, a ‘win-win’. It should very easy to negotiate a trade deal as we start from a position of trading partners.
    Instead it is like a contested divorce where the wife wants a financial settlement and only then will talk about who gets the house, children and holiday home, matters that clearly impact the former.
    When undertaking a journey it is best to decide the destination first rather than argue over the route, the M6 might be a better road than the M2 but not if one is wanting to drive from London to Paris!

  23. Mark Riley
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    several weeks ago when the ‘no deal better than a bad deal’ began to gain a little traction Tusk, Barnier etc actually showed a little ankle and hence the talks about moving to the trade talks. Imagine what would happen if we were serious about moving to WTO as we see no movement from them and little possibility of an equitable outcome ….

    • Jason wells
      Posted November 18, 2017 at 7:34 pm | Permalink

      Mark.. yes try it on and then watch them decamp for Christmas hols and maybe even easter..the EU types are administrators not politicians they are not there to negotiate only to make sure their own rules are followed. They don’t really give two hoots about UK now they have heard it all, seen it all, and have largely had enough of English whinge..a lot of them think good riddance..so how do you square that with us moving to WTO

  24. Kenneth
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 10:41 am | Permalink

    I get the impression that the BBC is trawling for “government in disarray” stories and is mainly sourcing from the eu, Whitehall and Labour which is fertile ground for such stories.

    • Kenneth
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 10:47 am | Permalink

      I do wonder that the BBC has so alienated some pro-Brexit politicians that it is now having trouble connecting with them.

      Briefings (on- or off-record) are harder to come by once the trust has gone…

      • Andy
        Posted November 18, 2017 at 9:02 am | Permalink

        The BBC doesn’t need to trawl for government in disarray stories. The stories are easy to find because the government IS in disarray.

        The reason why you see and hear the same few pro-Brexit politicians on TV and radio news bulletins and read comments from the same people in newspapers is because there are few of them left silly enough to want their name associated with the biggest car crash in political history. Most of those who still do speak out are pensioners – they’re retiring soon anyway. (Whether or not they want to).

        • Edward2
          Posted November 18, 2017 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

          Not according to polls which show no fall in those still supporting leaving.

        • NickC
          Posted November 18, 2017 at 7:28 pm | Permalink

          Andy, To prove your assertions you will have to accept that all the rest of the world gets by perfectly well without being in the EU; and why we uniquely could not join them.

  25. Ron Olden
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 11:27 am | Permalink

    The Republic of Ireland (ROI) Foreign Mister has been making threats today to stop the Brexit talks unless we do as ROI tells us.

    One way, however, to make a hard border between the ROI and the UK, much more likely, is for the UK to Leave without a deal.

    That will be fine for the UK. We can manage.

    We can also attract investment away from ROI by cutting our Corporation Tax Rate below ROI’s present 12.5%, which is the minimum the the EU permits them to charge.

    We can also ban ROI people from coming to work in the UK.

    And leaving without a deal will probably cause a further drop in the value of Sterling leaving ROI hopelessly unable to compete.

    Ireland’s economy will be ruined.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-42019697

  26. Epikouros
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

    Stating the obvious to EU negotiators it appears is no better than doing so to those with limited intellectual capacity or a 3 year old denied that he/she demands. Naturally in any negotiation between two parties both demand considerably more than is expected to be given. Then work to towards more sensible positions and demands. Not so the EU which is not unknown to happen during some negotiations but the only solution then is for negotiations to end without a deal and both parties then carry on in ways they see fit.

    The outcome of which will determine the next moves usually more negotiations that benefit the party that has lost the most from not making a deal in the previous round of negotiations. It would appear to me that the EU’s intransigence will prove that if negotiations are suspended now they will be the ones who will beg to make a deal at any price or at least that is more equitable.

  27. James Matthews
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    Not sure that I entirely agree. Sweet reason, maintained for too long in the face of an unreasonable antagonist starts to look like weakness and encourage intransigence. Time to walk away and concentrate on preparations for a no deal exit.

  28. John Dodds
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

    I can’t understand why we are bothering to negotiate.We had a positive vote to say we were leaving the EU because of the control they exercise over us and yet the Government appear to be saying we don’t really want to leave.It is extremely disappointing to read that we are even prepared to pay just to get them to listen to our proposals.I believe DD is doing his best but it would seem to make more sense to concentrate on joining the WTO and leave it up to the EU to approach us with their proposal which should be rejected if it is not satisfactory.

  29. Fed Up and Angry
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

    The UK Government has zero right to give away even more UK tax payer money that simply isn’t owed. When we have an economist with a successful track record (unlike the IMF) sayin that leaving under WTO could benefit the UK by in excess of 100BN, giving the EU 50BN to agree a trade deal (that no doubt will benefit them a lot more than us) makes absolutely no sense, unless of course the government is not working for UK people, but for the EU instead.

    The voters will not tolerate that level of financial commitment which would mean further spending cuts and tax rises and only a fool or corrupt government would even think about going there. Hopefully though this is more ‘fake news’ – if it is, then the UK government needs to come out and say so.

    • SecretPeople
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 8:26 pm | Permalink

      I totally agree that the government, or Downing Street, need to both swiftly and sharply slap down any vexatious and mischievous claims. I find that these claims tend to reflect the EU wish-list rather than reality, and are rarely able to produce verified quotes as their basis. Or are such claims fishing expeditions to see how statements go down with the public?

      For example, the claim that the PM “hinted” that she was willing to pay additional billions in order to move talks forward, as reported in The Times and Telegraph today, seemed unsubstantiated to me. When I read what both she and David Davis had said, I interpreted their words as meaning that it was time for the other side to concede something if talks were to move forward.

      Where are the quotes in Faisal Islam’s tweets? Is he just putting his own …… spin on things in the hope these assertions will become reality? Similarly, where is the direct DD quote about ECJ jurisdiction continuing that I read being attributed to him this evening? If he is saying ECJ rulings trump our own law courts then it directly contradicts a quote from him earlier in the week saying that such an arrangement would be a red line!

      Either the government have lost control of the narrative (making both them and us appear weak), or they are floating ideas to see how they are received, or they – like Labour – are spinning parallel yarns to please two audiences. If they are serious about delivering on the referendum result they need to sharply correct any devious spin tout suite!

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted November 18, 2017 at 9:54 am | Permalink

        They long ago lost control of the mass media narrative.

  30. Peter
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    Davis is right to make the statement. The problem is the EU is not listening.

    Red lines have been drawn and it will be interesting to see if they are crossed. BBC seems to imply this likely but they would say that wouldn’t they.

    All we can do is wait and see how it unfolds.

  31. Andy
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    I don’t understand why the Government has not aggressively tacked this ‘Brexit Bill’ rubbish with plenty of comment in the media here and on the Continent. Constantly plugging the point that this is contrary to the Law (the EU Treaties) needs to be stressed over and over again.

  32. Javk snell
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

    Dd might appear to be the tough type but to the EU crowd he is only a pussycat..all show and full of bounce..as we will see by dec 14th.

  33. Prigger
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    14.27 Hours BBC TV News “Mr Davis has repeated today “We” wish EU citizens to have voting rights in the UK. The EU are creating difficulties about it”
    Who in hell are the “We”?
    This was certainly not in the Leave campaign nor in the remain campaign. Looks like some of us will be campaigning in Mr Davis’ Constituency at the next election, but not for him. Pointing out non-British people have been allowed to pervert our democracy championed without mandate by their MP

  34. The Prangwizard
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    You said in an earlier post Mr Redwood that the date issue should not be contentious. We read in the Telegraph that Mrs May is poised to bow to the mutineers.

    If she does she has lost whatever authority she had. She will never recover and Brexit will be lost becuase the traitors will blackmail her again and again. Will she offer more concessions? Is she determined to prove again that she is weak and a determined appeaser?

  35. GilesB
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 3:02 pm | Permalink

    The EU are not negotiating in good faith.

    It is absurd to seek to resolve any issues about the Irish border separate from future trade relationships.

    And Art 50 itself dictates that the arrangements for withdrawal shall take into account the framework for future relationship with the Union

    In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union.

  36. Denis Cooper
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    Off-topic, a fairly interesting retrospective piece here:

    http://brexitcentral.com/dumping-lisbon-treaty-referendum-pledge-david-cameron-helped-pave-way-brexit/

    “By dumping his Lisbon Treaty referendum pledge, David Cameron helped pave the way for Brexit”

    That is how I see it as well.

    • Chris S
      Posted November 18, 2017 at 9:26 am | Permalink

      I can’t agree with you on this, Denis.

      Brown had reluctantly already signed the Treaty all on his own before Cameron came into office so he could hardly have withdrawn from the treaty which was legally binding on his new government.

      For whatever reason, but to his credit, he went ahead with the referendum but of more importance, it was lost because of the stupidity of Merkel and Hollande in humiliating him during his renegotiation when they sent him home with nothing.

      This will go down in history as one of the two biggest miscalculations in the history of the EU ( the other being the creation of the Euro ). I firmly believe that these two errors combined will be the catalyst that will ultimately cause the break up of the bloc.

      • rose
        Posted November 18, 2017 at 9:12 pm | Permalink

        And the third miscalculation was Frau Merkel’s extension of Freedom of Movement to other continents.

        • Chris S
          Posted November 18, 2017 at 11:49 pm | Permalink

          Agreed !

          It’s also the reason why Merkel’s career might well end in failure sooner rather than later as she is having the greatest difficulty in assembling a coalition.

          The main problem is because the Greens will not accept limits on migrants bringing in relatives without which the CSU in Bayern know they will be wiped out at the next election.

          Merkel knows she must impose limits : the one million she stupidly let in could well end up being 3, 4, 5 or even 6m without these restrictions. If all these people end up with Schengen passports, as seems inevitable, it will destroy her precious EU.

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted November 19, 2017 at 11:42 am | Permalink

        In effect what Cameron did was to avoid holding the promised referendum on just the amending Lisbon Treaty, which Parliament being sovereign he could have held in 2010 even though that treaty had already come into force, but instead end up being compelled to hold a referendum on the EU treaties as a whole which of course also were, and indeed still are, already in force. If he had stuck with his original promise to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty the Tories would have had a much better chance in the 2010 general election – it was clear at the time that his decision to renege had cost his party a crucial few percent of support – and when the voters had agreed with him and rejected the amending Lisbon Treaty, as they almost certainly would have done, he would then have had a strong referendum mandate to go to the EU and demand a fresh renegotiation of the treaties.

  37. Anonymous
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 3:15 pm | Permalink

    This fomentation of hatred against the older generation. It really won’t do. And to hear it in the i newspaper that a Tory minister is in on it.

    We parents voted for Brexit because we understand the impact that mass immigration is having on housing for our children.

    – why is mass immigration still taboo ?

    – what impact does the Tory marketing team think alienating their core vote will have on them ?

    Even I want your party out.

    Bunch of fakes.

  38. Denis Cooper
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

    JR, in what surreal sense would the “everything will remain the same” transition period now being proposed by David Davis actually represent any kind of transition?

    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/transition

    Transition:

    “The process or a period of changing from one state or condition to another.”

    Not:

    “A period during which everything will remain the same.”

  39. Peter VAN LEEUWEN
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 3:51 pm | Permalink

    The Netherlands will prepare itself for a “chaos scenario”, as reported today by special rapporteurs (exit with no deal or anything).
    My hunch is that this conclusion is reached because of a less than stable UK government and an utterly divided Britain (of which some Brexiteers may not even be aware).

    • Anonymous
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 6:41 pm | Permalink

      PVL – I don’t recognise Britain anymore.

      I doubt it will reach consensus on anything ever again. Not even war. So in that regard at least, the EU is a unifying force (it neutralises wherever it goes.)

      Hey. There you go again “Brexiteers may not even be aware”

      You really are patronising at times.

      • Peter VAN LEEUWEN
        Posted November 18, 2017 at 8:00 am | Permalink

        @Anonymous: I’ll try and better my life and be less patronising.
        Not easy in this den of the anti-EU crowd. 🙂

    • alan jutson
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

      Peter

      How about the complete intransigence of the EU, now with German Ministers wanting us to give in, with unconditional surrender.

      Once we have left and after many years, you may one day be calling for us to help you once again overcome being governed by another Country/ Group of Countries.

      • Peter VAN LEEUWEN
        Posted November 18, 2017 at 8:10 am | Permalink

        @alan jutson: I don’t believe each term used in the media. On the whole, I see the EU27 as being consistent but not intransigent.

    • Prigger
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

      “utterly divided Britain”. Only political activists are divided. The rest of us are drinking beer, wine and having a great time. We might cut out the wine though. A bit too foreign really and we can make it cheaper and better here.

      • Peter VAN LEEUWEN
        Posted November 18, 2017 at 8:14 am | Permalink

        @Prigger: My British friends also praise their English wine.
        Anyway, when I’m in Britain, I don’t stick to lager but join in with local beers. And I’ll feel proud supporting the UK economy. Please do the same whenever you’re in Holland 🙂

    • Hope
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

      Hot divided. We voted leave and expect the govt to deliver. The Dutch voted no to Ukraine and its govt ignored its voters. Just say thank you for the food parachutes you were sent after the war. Too weak then, too weak now.

      • rose
        Posted November 18, 2017 at 11:52 am | Permalink

        Yes, we were united then in going without food, so the Dutch could have some.

      • Peter VAN LEEUWEN
        Posted November 18, 2017 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

        @Hope: I did try to thank you again, but apparently my comment was deleted 🙂 (something to do with dropping?)

    • James Matthews
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 7:37 pm | Permalink

      A responsible Government should always have contingency plans PVL

      Beyond that, your insight into the zeitgeist in Britain is about as reliable as mine into the that of the Netherlands, which is to say next to non-existent.

      • Peter VAN LEEUWEN
        Posted November 18, 2017 at 8:25 am | Permalink

        @James Matthews: It may be true that I hadn’t expected brexit, Trump or the rise of populism. Did you?
        Actually, I don’t claim any insight in the zeitgeist in Britain.

        • NickC
          Posted November 18, 2017 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

          PvL, Expect Brexit, Trump and “populism”? Yes I did, all 3. And talking about “populism” is really patronising.

    • lo
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

      Who cares what your tinpot country is planning?You sound like a cliche-ridden EU troll.

      • Peter VAN LEEUWEN
        Posted November 18, 2017 at 8:27 am | Permalink

        @lo: In this Brexit process, politicians and media do care. Apparently you as well, as you can’t stop yourself name-calling in this comment.

        • NickC
          Posted November 18, 2017 at 11:31 pm | Permalink

          PvL, Since you call Britain (you mean the UK) “utterly divided”, “less than stable”, and you are preparing for UK “chaos”, then I think you are the pot calling the kettle black in your name-calling.

          Moreover, a democratic vote divides the nation; even yours. That’s its purpose. That doesn’t bring chaos it brings resolution. Democracy is regime change without the civil war. That test shows the EU is not democratic.

    • NickC
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

      PvL, The Netherlands can do what it likes . . . . . er, no, that can’t be right . . . . . the Netherlands will do what the EU likes. Say Hi to Geert Wilders for me in your Eutopia.

      • Peter VAN LEEUWEN
        Posted November 18, 2017 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

        @NickC: My reply was deleted, sorry for you.

    • Bob
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 11:53 pm | Permalink

      @PvL
      Germany doesn’t have a government
      Poland & Hungary headed for the EU exit
      Holland is in chaos
      Spain is on the brink of another civil war
      Greece is on the verge of collapse
      Italy have been knocked out of the World Cup
      The EU is about to cut off air, sea, rail and road transport links with Britain

      Gosh! that Mr Putin has been a busy boy!

      Maybe it’s time that your five presidents ceased their pompous blustering and got on with their emergency budget.

      • Peter VAN LEEUWEN
        Posted November 18, 2017 at 8:30 am | Permalink

        @Bob: what a bleak view. It may not all come to pass, Bob.

        • NickC
          Posted November 18, 2017 at 7:33 pm | Permalink

          PvL, Nor your bleak view of Brexit. As well as being none of your business. At last.

      • Mitchel
        Posted November 18, 2017 at 1:36 pm | Permalink

        Tsar Alexander I made it to Paris,Stalin to Berlin.Could Mr Putin get all the way to Brussels?

        God speed you,sir!

    • Rien Huizer
      Posted November 18, 2017 at 8:46 am | Permalink

      It is a logical response to an enfolding situation: the UK does not want to be bound and the EU does not trust. All of the actual points of contention can be solved (Ireland is difficult, but returning NI to the Irish would be a small price to pay) the reason that nothing seems to happen is that everyone is happy with the UK out. Not that that is the optimum but the optimum is out of reach.

      • NickC
        Posted November 18, 2017 at 7:35 pm | Permalink

        Rein, It’s us that do not trust the EU. We have 45 years of evidence. What have you got?

      • rose
        Posted November 18, 2017 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

        “(Ireland is difficult, but returning NI to the Irish would be a small price to pay) ”

        The Irish Republic has never owned Northern Ireland. Furhtermore there is an old-fashioned belief here, if not in Germany, that the people there have a right to self-determination.

        What next? The handover of Gibraltar would be a small price to pay? Because you may be sure that will be the next spanner thrown in the works.

      • Chris S
        Posted November 19, 2017 at 12:01 am | Permalink

        Rein, you probably don’t realise that the very last thing the Eire government ( and the EU ) want is a united Ireland. They are terrified of the prospect.

        English taxpayers ( and it is only English taxpayers ) subsidise NI to the tune of £10bn pa -= the same as our net contribution to the EU. That’s a massive £5,089 per head of population, double what Scotland costs us.

        Ireland cannot possibly afford to take over that subsidy – it would increase the Irish deficit by a factor of three to almost 10% of GDP.

        The EU cannot allow that – the limit in the Eurozone is supposed to be 3% so it will cause even more problems for the Euro and, crucially, would return Ireland to being a net recipient of EU funding, piling even more pressure on Germany and the few other net contributors after Brexit.

        • rose
          Posted November 20, 2017 at 7:15 pm | Permalink

          That is why the plan is for us to go on paying for N Ireland but for it to be in the EU.

    • Bert Young
      Posted November 18, 2017 at 10:11 am | Permalink

      PvL . I agree that there seems to be “a chaos scenario” within the Brussels bureaucracy at the moment . Much of must be due to the timing of its economic plan and the realisation that it will not be able to maintain the profligacy of its ways without the UK contributions . The 2 week threat to us is all centred on this timing . That there is a voluble minority of opinion in this country to stay within the EU is not denied ; it is very much a minority however – and increasingly so according to the latest opinion polls . Regards .

      • Peter VAN LEEUWEN
        Posted November 19, 2017 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

        @Bert Young:
        Isn’t the “two week threat” mainly a UK threat to itself? It is the UK that wants to move to discussing the future relationship in December, it is the EU27 which wants to secure that major issues which block an orderly withdraw (the 3 well-known issues) are solved first. The Florence speech, a general political statement, hasn’t yet been translated into the nuts and bolts of calculation rules, either that or the UK hasn’t completed its line-by-line scrutiny of all its EU-alleged commitments. With the UK being so “relaxed” about coming over to negotiate, the start of the agreed phase 2 is bound to move into 2018.
        What I reported about is advise from Dutch parliamentarian rapporteurs to the Dutch government only, not to “Brussels”.

  40. Nb
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 3:56 pm | Permalink

    Whoever signed us up to billions of pounds in future project to the EU despite knowing their could be a vote to leave needs at the VERY least to explain themselves.

    • rose
      Posted November 18, 2017 at 6:01 pm | Permalink

      I think they concentrated on reining in the projected spending rather than proposing it.

  41. Nb
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 3:58 pm | Permalink

    How many thousands will die now from NHS operations or treatments we cannot afford as we have to pay it the Jesuits? Come on, this has been a masterful robbery by the EU elite who aided and abetted this from our side? Yet again the cock up theory not the conspiracy theory prevails?

  42. Nb
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    Is (named individual ed) and the remainiacs on a commission from Juncker on how many more billions we have to pay them? Its obviously all monopoly money to them?

  43. Denis Cooper
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

    The extortionists have found a new euphemism:

    http://www.cityam.com/275980/more-work-done-brexit-tusk-tells-may-she-lobbies-leaders

    “The president of the EU Council today warned Theresa May “there is more work to be done” to break the Brexit talks deadlock.”

    They could just openly say “Give us more money”.

    • Chris
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 6:27 pm | Permalink

      All they are interested in is delay, in the hope that the public will become so frustrated with May that they will settle for the devil they know i.e. the EU. The only way we are going to get Brexit is if a strong and bold Brexiter were to become leader of the Cons Party. If this doesn’t happen, then the best we will get is a fudge meaning we have not broken free from the EU, and the worst is if we have a Corbyn government committed to taking us back in. They won’t worry about scrutinising every line, but instead will, I fear, employ the tactic that the end justifies the means, and simply steamroller their plans through.

  44. Anonymous
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

    “Building Britain Fit for the Future”

    Lies.

    You can’t build for net immigration of 246,000 pa.

    You’re alienating your core vote because they know the truth.

    You’re failing to engage your target vote because you won’t tell them the truth. You allow the left to keep the subject of unsustainable migration taboo.

    “Concrete over our Beautiful Country” is how your core vote will see your new slogan.

    The young have been well and truly indocrinated in “The old are evil” and that importing 3 million young people has nothing whatsoever to do with their struggles in affording housing.

    Corbyn it is then. I would advise all members of this site to arrange their affairs accordingly.

    • Mark B
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 7:49 pm | Permalink

      Already have

      😉

    • NickC
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 11:27 pm | Permalink

      Anon, It is true, and too many Conservative politicians think that they will not be held to account for their appeasement of the EU which lets this continue.

  45. Chris
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

    The new Tory slogan apparently:
    “Building a Britain fit for the future”.

    I utterly despair, and judging by the comments section on Guido so do all the commenters. One of the more polite commenter wrote: “Do they think we are stupid?” Another said enough with the slogans and let us have some action to get us out of the EU. Yet another questioned why the Cons do not seem to have learnt any lessons from the past. People are fed up with these slogans, and with politicians thinking we will succumb to meaningless soundbites. Please, Mr Redwood, can you knock some sense into the Tory team? I suspect you won’t be able to as they seem beyond hope.

    • Anonymous
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

      By default, Corbyn it is.

      May has an uncanny nack of pissing real Tory voters right off.

      Venezuela. If that’s what the snowflakes want.

      I just want to give the Tory party a bloody good kicking now and that is very easy for us to do.

      All we have to do is stay at home.

      I am tired of voting for them to keep someone else out and for no other good reason.

    • NickC
      Posted November 17, 2017 at 11:24 pm | Permalink

      Chris, sad to say, you are right.

    • rose
      Posted November 18, 2017 at 12:18 am | Permalink

      At least it’s not “building a country which works for everyone” which is almost as stupid as their “building an economy that works for everyone.”

      Could the PM not work out that rock bottom interest rates are good for borrowers (except for the moral hazard) and business but very bad for savers and the retired? Could she not understand that a high pound is bad for exporters but good for employers of foreign labour? Has she never noticed that a low pound is bad for importers, shoppers, and holidaymakers, but good for the tourist trade here?

      She seems to have forgotten that sky high immigration might be good for some but very bad for most.

      And protectionism is good for some but not for others.

      There is no such thing as an economy which works for everyone if it is being closely managed by a government.

  46. woodsy42
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 6:26 pm | Permalink

    I fail to understand why we are being so polite and behaving like supplicants to a higher power? It’s very obvious that the EU are holding back meaningful discussion in order to cause worry and dissent in the UK and thus weaken our barganning position and extort more money from us.
    Personally I would have refused point blank to engage with their obviously biased and absurd order of discussion from day one. No meaningful honest discussion ever starts with one side arbitrarily setting the rules. To have accepted it at all showed serious weakness and a position of deference right at the start. Sadly that damage is done but walking away now would at least leave time for them to rethink their superior attitude and hopefully start discussing things in a genuine way to get an agreement before we leave. Better than leaving it until the end and then being faced with the last minute rushed choice of bad deal or no deal.

  47. Chris
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

    I am now seriously considering the possibility that Cons deliberately chose May as leader because they knew she would not deliver Brexit. I believe they (those committed Europhiles and their bosses) thought that May was expendable but they would use her simply to thoroughly p off people so that they accept a fudge or even allow the government to take us back in. Once she has achieved that for them she will be ditched. She was a useful tool but her shelf life is just about over.

    I cannot tell you how angry I am, Mr Redwood, with what I perceive is the utter betrayal by the Conservatives to the electorate. I fear your Party in its current form is finished.

    • Mitchel
      Posted November 18, 2017 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

      She was so obviously the continuity candidate;I am surprised anyone ever thought otherwise.

  48. Simon Coleman
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 7:12 pm | Permalink

    No, the EU is saying that it would like some ideas on the Irish border. It’s not a delaying tactic. We’ve just given them a new 300 mile land border – they didn’t ask for it. It’s not unreasonable for them to first ask the UK, whose departure caused the problem, to at least put forward a workable plan. They’re not asking for an immediate solution. And the total lack of interest of Brexiteers in the possible impact on the Northern Ireland peace process is a disgrace.

    The divorce bill is separate from trade talks. Again, they’re not asking for a figure, just an indication of what responsibilities we’re prepared to accept. We agreed to their timetable for talks, so again it’s not unreasonable for them to ask us to state our position.

    And I’d get ready for classic some May U-turns on the money and the exit date amendment to the Withdrawal Bill.

    • rose
      Posted November 18, 2017 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

      “And the total lack of interest of Brexiteers in the possible impact on the Northern Ireland peace process is a disgrace.” Translates as: the Brexiteers are not going to be blackmailed by an unsavoury alliance of (some in Ireland ed) with the EU. Nor should the rest of the country.

  49. Kenneth
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 7:23 pm | Permalink

    I thought we had settled the Irish border issue on our side by stating there would not be a physical border.

    Of course, what Ireland do about their side of the border us up to Ireland

  50. HenryS
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 7:48 pm | Permalink

    Don’t like what I’m seeing on the news tonight- DD is not coming across as being totally in charge, Mrs May is like a stuck record going round and round- same old, same old

    Meanwhile we are hearing a message from the EU side that the conditions for our exit are still a long way off- Ireland has come to the fore now as a real problem. It seems the way the Irish government sees it the DUP are propping up Mrs May’s conservative government and so have a disproportionate hold on british policy for that reason Veradakar the Irish PM is being careful now to ensure he is right in the fold of the commission and the EU27. There can be no successful outcome to the exit talks unless all of the EU27 agree that sufficient progress has been made- back to the drawing board

    • rose
      Posted November 18, 2017 at 12:02 pm | Permalink

      Of course the DUP aren’t driving our determination not to hand over Northern Ireland to the EU but continue to pay for it. Northern Ireland is part of our country, and we wouldn’t want it the other side of a hostile foreign border, even if we weren’t expected to go on paying for it – which we would be.

  51. GP
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 7:49 pm | Permalink

    Tell Upset to post some decent music. I’m bored.

  52. Norman
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 8:15 pm | Permalink

    I don’t think any one realizes what an intransigent, totalitarian entity the EU actually is. By its very nature, its contempt for Brexit is absolute, so we are in effect, only playing games in talking of negotiation. I suspect the EU regards it as a political cat-and-mouse, damage-limitation exercise – a mere temporary irritation, which it hopes will in due course expend itself.
    Meanwhile, our own Government has the difficult task of securing what we want, without making enemies, either in terms of trade or strategic collaboration (in the latter context, thank goodness for NATO and Trump – for whom contempt is as palpable as for Farage). The present stand-off is entirely predictable; and Ireland is, as ever, a significant historical fault-line. The big question is, do our Government have what it takes to see the whole thing through? Is it in their DNA, at the top? Their persistent ‘confusion of face’ on other issues does not bode well.

  53. Brickie
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 8:34 pm | Permalink

    The Prime Minister of Ireland Leo Varadkar says he wants it in writing the UK border with Ireland will remain open. We shall get Mr Speaker to reply, shortly.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted November 18, 2017 at 9:47 am | Permalink

      He should address his request to the EU not the UK.

  54. Caterpillar
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 8:38 pm | Permalink

    The continued holdup by the (friendly neighbour EU) is somewhat irritating, but reflective of what might be expected. What continues to irritate is the govt continuing to negotiate. The UK should respect the referendum and walk away.

  55. Landlord
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 9:02 pm | Permalink

    Why does the EU want our money if they are so successful? It must be a mere bagatelle for them. Juncker’s beer money.

  56. a-tracy
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 9:43 pm | Permalink

    Why do Southern Ireland have so much say over us?
    They’d be bankrupt without our financial assistance and low interest loan, why aren’t we playing hardball in return, they still want high migration quotas with us after our exit, they still want to do lots of trade with us, do they really want to bite our hand, whilst threatening to take our businesses and banks and all sorts of other threats made through our willing press. Don’t they see this sort of posturing is being read by us British and it’s having a bad effect. We were ambivalent to them before but this posturing is very patronising. They’re not the bully they’re like the little friend of the bully egging them on without realising the consequences to them, let’s give them a few home truths, carry on and we’ll have our money back and cut them off.

    It’s getting bloody ridiculous, these people like Tusk whose Country sucks from our teat, whose fellow Countrymen and women have been welcomed here, work amongst us and by many accounts want to stay on friendly terms, don’t start giving us ultimatums, because our politicians might sell us out, but the people won’t just take this for the next two years and accept it afterwards.

    • WestwardHo
      Posted November 18, 2017 at 7:49 pm | Permalink

      A-tracey..the next two weeks will tell..the Irish like everyone else are required to take a stand in their own interest..can’t blame them..their problem would be solved if only the government would put something into law or even giving them a letter to say there would be no hard border. Right now the have a veto on whether these exit talks will be accepted by the EU as being sufficient to allow movement to the next stage. But there are other things as well like the movement of people and of course the cost of exit. We started all of this upset so we can hardly expect that the EU is going to roll over now to facilitate us according to allof our own bespoke wishes without some problems.

      • a-tracy
        Posted November 19, 2017 at 8:37 pm | Permalink

        Well let’s go then, this isn’t going to be negotiable because the hard border isn’t our decision.
        Not all of us ever wanted a United States of Europe. We’ve been sucked in without anyone asking us how deep into this project were being taken.

        Europe must have ok with potential members leaving or there wouldn’t be Article 50. Sneaky backdoor changes from Maastricht to Lisbon have to this and Blair and Major are the biggest contributors and Channel 4 news repeatedly every night week after week showing us the desperate queues of people trying to get into the EU and thus into the UK without us being able to control it.

        Half a million a year needing homes, when weren’t building enough for our own children, then getting priority even in our richest boroughs like Kensington, you’ve only to look at Grenfell Towers to see how many English born people were given this social housing. Our children are having to share four to a house to rent in London, often miles out of the centre with big commutes and immigrants are being given their own flats right in the centre of London even those without work. Maternity wards in London where they just can’t cope with unplanned, unexpected deliveries of babies of the World.

      • a-tracy
        Posted November 19, 2017 at 8:53 pm | Permalink

        One more thing.
        Europe did ask for this – DC asked for a small number of concessions and Mr Junker laughed him out of court, so don’t say they had no part in this because they did. I hold them fully responsible. It won’t be long before they roll over and make these concessions for Germany, France and Italy.
        They knew full well the British public were feeling overwhelmed.
        They knew full well we had regions in our own Country in need of investment, better schools, better Universities, better infrastructure but instead our factories were being closed down and exported to the Eastern Europe encouraged by the EU, expensive fuel for factories causing lots to quit for cheaper areas and our money, not just the known contribution but the 80% EU VAT take and other fees, fines and tolls sucked in to do as 100% depended Countries desire.

  57. leavewon
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 9:49 pm | Permalink

    Read today cons have a “Policy Unit”
    Good grief.
    How many are in it ?
    What are the total running costs ?

  58. Freeborn John
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    The EU is seeking a written guarantee from the Uk that there will be no physical infrastructure in the Irish border in their ‘phase 1’ of negotiations. If the UK concedes that the EU will then say this can only be realised if the UK stays in the single market and customs union.

    The Uk government would be niave in the extreme to fall for this very obvious Brussels ploy.

    • zorro
      Posted November 18, 2017 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

      Yes, but they want a plan that fits their prejudices – four pillar compliance or nothing. We will not put up a hard border. If the EU do because they are a bit dim then that is their choice…..

      zorro

  59. Chris S
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 11:46 pm | Permalink

    Just to show that we are serious, Mrs May should send Sir James Dyson in with David Davis for the next round of negotiations.

    By the time he has told Barnier a few home truths and packed his briefcase ready to walk out, maybe, just maybe they will finally get it.

    Deal or No Deal, we are LEAVING !

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted November 18, 2017 at 9:39 am | Permalink

      I’m quite keen for David Davis to take along a copy of this report entitled “20 years of the European single market” issued by Michel Barnier himself in 2012, when he was the EU Commissioner in charge of the Single Market:

      https://publications.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/c505dbb4-64f1-40a6-8062-ebdea6240bd4

      And slap it down in front of him opened on page 13, in which he stated:

      The collective GDP of the EU member states in 2008 was 2.13% higher than it would have been if the Single Market had not been launched in 1992.

      Over the same period the Single Market helped to create 2.77 million new jobs, a 1.3% increase in employment across the EU.

      So a mere 2.13% added to the collective GDP of the member states, and a trivial 1.3% increase in the number of jobs across the member states, that is what he said the EU Single Market had achieved since it had been created.

      So does he really believe that we should be prepared to accept uncontrolled and unlimited immigration in order to preserve that marginal benefit?

      And that is not the end, as this according to this German study:

      https://www.bertelsmann-stiftung.de/fileadmin/files/BSt/Publikationen/GrauePublikationen/Policy-Brief-Binnenmarkt-en_NW_02_2014.pdf

      the gain for the UK had been below that EU average at about 1% of GDP.

      I can only think that David Davis has agreed not to publicise this important truth which contradicts the constant gross exaggerations of the Remain side including most of the present government.

      • Chris S
        Posted November 19, 2017 at 12:12 am | Permalink

        I’ve seen these figures before. The really shocking statistic is the measly €10 per head per annum that we have “gained” by signing up to all the restrictions imposed by the EU since 1992 under the guise of “integration.”

        The restrictions must have cost us several hundred times that in lost competitiveness viz a viz the rest of the world.

  60. Simon
    Posted November 17, 2017 at 11:54 pm | Permalink

    In the famous words of Ronald Reagan “there you go again”.

  61. rose
    Posted November 18, 2017 at 12:22 am | Permalink

    I hope to goodness he hasn’t offered them any more money.

    Why doesn’t he tell them and the world that there is no need for a hard border if they opt for a free trade agreement with us.

    The other solution is for the Southern Irish to leave the protection racket too. Then they can have the tax rates they want and a lot of other freedoms as well.

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, and graduated from Magdalen College Oxford. He is a Distinguished fellow of All Souls, Oxford. A businessman by background, he has set up an investment management business, was both executive and non executive chairman of a quoted industrial PLC, and chaired a manufacturing company with factories in Birmingham, Chicago, India and China. He is the MP for Wokingham, first elected in 1987.

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