Illegal migrants and the Irish border

Before we entered the EU there was a common travel area with the Republic of Ireland, and after we leave there will also be a common travel area. The checks at the border for people will be the same before and after exit. There is substantial co-operation across the border over criminals today and this will remain.

After we leave the EU it will still be possible for a person from another EU member state to get into the Republic, subject to EU controls on criminals and illegal migrants, and from there to cross into the UK in Northern Ireland. The UK system of control over migrant numbers will be exercised for the whole UK by the need for a work permit if someone wishes to get a job, by the need to establish entitlement if they want to receive a benefit, and the necessity to prove they are legal immigrants if they wish to open a bank account, rent or buy a property or get a car licence.

It is difficult to see therefore why an illegal migrant from the EU would bother to go through the tortuous journey via Dublin, only to find on arrival in the UK that their illegal status made it impossible to live a normal life or benefit from the good things that brought them to the UK.

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93 Comments

  1. Fred H
    Posted August 23, 2019 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    Why is it that there are always troubles with Ireland, north or south? It never goes away, and the EU encourage it!

    • margaret howard
      Posted August 23, 2019 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

      Because Ireland wanted to get its independence back having been forcibly annexed by us after much bloodshed.

      Isn’t that what Brexiteers say they want from the EU? Only the EU never forcibly annexed anyone.

      • rose
        Posted August 24, 2019 at 8:41 am | Permalink

        The EU use other methods – economic and financial warfare.

        The puzzle is why the SNP and Mr Varadkar regard servitude in the EU as national independence. The very word “nation” is anathema to the EU.

        • steve
          Posted August 24, 2019 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

          Rose

          “The puzzle is why the SNP and Mr Varadkar regard servitude in the EU as national independence.”

          No puzzle. They readily jump into bed with anyone whom they perceive as an enemy of the English.

          Which is why I think the SNP should be punished when his is all over.

          • rose
            Posted August 25, 2019 at 12:06 am | Permalink

            Yes, Anglophobia is a great driver of EUphilia and not just in Scotland and Ireland.

        • Martin in Cardiff
          Posted August 24, 2019 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

          I think that the people of Ireland would have been rather pleased with a process as simple and as peaceful as Article fifty for leaving the UK, Rose.

          They ended up with the Black and Tans and their murderous rampages though, didn’t they?

      • Bob
        Posted August 24, 2019 at 8:52 am | Permalink

        You’re living in the past Margaret. Don’t look back in anger, look forward to all the opportunities that await as Britannia re-engages directly with the nations that happily exists outside of the EU protection racket.

        • margaret howard
          Posted August 24, 2019 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

          Bob

          So, as I keep asking ardent Brexiteers, why did we beg to join the EU in the first place?

          After all, we had only just lost an empire and traded with many countries but somehow that was not as promising as EU membership.

          Do you think we 67.23% of Remain voters in 1975 were all gullible, misguided fools? As were the over 49% of us who voted to Remain this time?

          And by ‘protection racket’ I don’t suppose you mean the EU protects us from the rapacity and ambitions of other nations to have a fair share of world markets with a reputation for quality which the EU members generally enjoy?

          • Edward2
            Posted August 24, 2019 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

            But it wasn’t the EU back then.
            It was the Common Market.
            Six similar nations involving themselves in a trading partnership.
            Notjing like the EU of today.

          • Martin in Cardiff
            Posted August 25, 2019 at 6:49 am | Permalink

            Indeed, Margaret.

            Edwards, it was crystal clear to me when I voted in the nineteen seventy-five referendum, that I was voting to stay in an organisation which would develop into something very much like the European Union that we have today.

            The pamphlet sent to every single electoral address explained this clearly.

            The first aim, right at the top of the list, was To Bring Together The Peoples Of Europe. It went on to describe pretty well exactly what we have.

            So you have now had two votes, because you, and the billionaire-off-shore-tax-dodging-UK-media-owners whined for forty years, and would not accept the thumping seventy-to-thirty result.

            That is why this once-great-but-now-excuse-for-a-country is seen as perfidy epitomised around the world. It is you, who demanded to keep on voting, until you got your desired result.

            Reply Why did Remain in 1975 call the EEC the common market, say it was just a trading arrangement and promise no loss of sovereignty? I thought they were lies at the time.

    • Benny Lowe
      Posted August 24, 2019 at 6:26 am | Permalink

      I know! It is amazing how little gratitude the Irish show for having been colonised, pillaged, starved and partitioned.

      • Robert Wilson
        Posted August 24, 2019 at 8:34 am | Permalink

        Well the Irish did start it after all when they invaded and colonised parts of North Britain, and inflicted their Gaelic language and culture upon the British people who lived here.

      • margaret howard
        Posted August 24, 2019 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

        Benny Lowe

        Not forgetting near extinction at the hands of Cromwell and his murderous hordes.

  2. Mark B
    Posted August 23, 2019 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

    Good afternoon.

    But there is also the criminal element to consider. And despite what our kind host has said, that does not stop illegal / economic immigrants trying to cross the channel.

    The UK system is both far too generous and soft. We need a tougher regime to dissuade those who see the UK as a benefits cash cow, whilst preserving the rights of those who are genuinely fleeing persecution.

    • Hope
      Posted August 23, 2019 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

      Highest immigration on record, highest illegal immigration on record, highest failure to deport and highest amount of illegal immigrants lost to Mayhabs and Rudds system! All a coincidence despite promising cutting to tens of thousands for ten years! I wonder if the Tory govt are lying to get votes?

      Inspectorate stating in no stretch of the imagination our the UK birde s secure!

      Come on, JR. tell us the truth you would have more credibility. Dublin bollocks, they can get in anywhere and there is little prospect of being turfed out whatever their circumstance or history.

    • Bob
      Posted August 24, 2019 at 11:11 am | Permalink

      Listening on R4 this morning to an interview with a “charity worker” who has been aiding and abetting illegal immigrants in Calais, she claimed that the migrants were fleeing from police brutality in France and were therefore genuine asylum cases.

      Obviously the presenter didn’t bother to challenge that assertion.

    • BR
      Posted August 24, 2019 at 1:32 pm | Permalink

      A plan to flee persecution that involves running out of Syria and by-passing several safe countries to walk all the way here is clearly a sham. I don’t believe there are any true asylum seekers other than those that walk into a British Embassy in their own country or the nearest safe one.

      Treat them accordingly – send them back.

  3. Border fan
    Posted August 23, 2019 at 3:29 pm | Permalink

    You plan to leave the Irish border wide open!! THIS IS NOT WHAT I VOTED FOR. You told us we would control our borders. What happened to that promise?

    • libertarian
      Posted August 23, 2019 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

      Border fan

      Well its been that way since 1923 so bit late to start worrying now

      • Simeon
        Posted August 24, 2019 at 7:00 am | Permalink

        Good morning.

        I was disappointed though unsurprised to see no mention of immigration in relation to the Iris border in Sir John’s post yesterday. As you imply, though perhaps were too polite to say, today’s post on the matter is hopelessly naive at best.

        It was immigration, not trade deals, that exercised a great many people. Retaining an open border in Ireland might have great benefits, but it is hardly taking back control. Without immigration, given our inadequate birthrate, the UK would have been in serious trouble. But chaotic immigration has simply caused other, more serious problems.

        That this country is such a soft touch on welfare is one of the main drivers of EU immigration. Rights afforded to UK citizens must be afforded to EU citizens. Generous welfare payments for one means generous welfare payments for all.

        Of course, the Irish border issue may well be moot. A no deal Brexit seems most unlikely (though perhaps not quite ‘a million to one’,) and the prospect of a WA stitch up is very real (every single member of the cabinet voted for the WA, with one honourable exception, and one less honourable exception; why wouldn’t they vote for a better version of the same thing?).

        • Simeon
          Posted August 24, 2019 at 7:30 am | Permalink

          Apologies. This was a reply to Mark B

  4. agricola
    Posted August 23, 2019 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    If illegals are prepared to rubber tender it across the channel a dry trip via Dublin is no problem. The point is, visa permission to be in the UK is unimportant. Once here they can claim assylum and know that they will never get deported. There are an estimated 2 million of them here to prove the point.

    It does not seem to occur to the EU or our negative remain denigraters of life in the UK after we leave, that these illegals who have travelled the length of Europe are prepared to face the dangers of the Channel just to get here. Set against the whinging remain cabal, what an unequivocal vote of confidence these people give a leave UK. A suggestion why not export a remainer for every assylum seeker we accept.

    • Andy
      Posted August 24, 2019 at 12:32 am | Permalink

      Well there are so many Leavers, like yourself, who have exercised your right to free movement that lots of you are not here.

      Incidentally – did you integrate by learning the language and adopting the culture? No. I thought not.

      • Edward2
        Posted August 24, 2019 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

        Free movement is a recent thing.
        My parents bought a home in Spain in 1968.
        They travelled there often and lived there for years with no difficulties.
        It was possible to get a work permit if you wanted to as well.
        You are too young to realise Andy.

    • Peejos
      Posted August 25, 2019 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

      The so called dangers of crossing the Channel are very exaggerated. For much of the year the waves are a couple of feet high, though the tide does run twice a day at 5 mph along its length.

      Ships move in two controlled lanes, each ten miles wide in separate directions at between 10 and 18 miles an hour and are well lit at night . Passing astern of them when travelling at 25 mph takes but a few minutes, allowing ample time to avoid the next following ship. It is a lot easier and safer than trying to cross the average high street.

  5. formula57
    Posted August 23, 2019 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    The special privileges afforded to citizens of the Irish Republic are overdue for being rescinded surely?

    It may well be “… difficult to see therefore why an illegal migrant from the EU would bother…” but that presumes foreknowledge of what they would find in the U.K. leading to dissuasion. Rather can we not expect that plenty will take the chance, either from ignorance or optimism, and especially if encouraged by our Evil Empire enemies?

    • steve
      Posted August 24, 2019 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

      formula57

      “The special privileges afforded to citizens of the Irish Republic are overdue for being rescinded surely?”

      Yes, especially after the way they, via their press and little PM, have insulted us lately.

      Also any loans should be called in.

  6. a-tracy
    Posted August 23, 2019 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    John, do you think we will have to have identify cards with photos on them in the future?

    You say it is easy to prove people are legal here yet Windrush makes those claims look wobbly.

    The self-employed economy is strong here with no checks on who those people are, often those entering your home such as painters and decorators, gardeners, and more skilled tradespeople like plumbers, locksmiths, electricians – who will check that they are legally here working as householders have no registered way to check do they?

  7. Julie Williams
    Posted August 23, 2019 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    Perhaps we could organise a welcoming party forr illegal immigrants made up of Guardian and Independent readers who CNN tell them just how bad the UK is,leaflets and videos ditto.
    One way or another, it might save them a lot of grief!

    • Jiminyjim
      Posted August 24, 2019 at 7:34 am | Permalink

      No need for them to read the Grauniad. A short conversation with Andy and Margaret H would very rapidly persuade them that the UK is the most dreadful country on earth.

  8. Ian Wragg
    Posted August 23, 2019 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

    But May signed up to the UN declaration on immigration stating that there is no such thing as illegal immigration.
    When are you going to recind that pledge. We know Boris is pro Immigration.

    • Stred
      Posted August 24, 2019 at 6:46 am | Permalink

      May signed us up for assisting migration. She made so many mistakes it’s as though she was an enemy agent.

  9. Shirley
    Posted August 23, 2019 at 4:51 pm | Permalink

    We will not stop tourists from the EU or pretty much anywhere in the world. We will need tough deterrents for those who assist illegal immigration by providing lodgings and employment, wherever they come from.

  10. Lennie
    Posted August 23, 2019 at 5:09 pm | Permalink

    Work permit? Bank account? These are illegal immigrants living off crime, and you John Redwood want to open out borders to them in the hope theyll fill out their PAPERWORK??!
    Do you even know why people voted leave, John Redwood?

    • Sir Joe Soap
      Posted August 23, 2019 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

      The same borders are open now.

      • Louth Voice
        Posted August 24, 2019 at 6:28 am | Permalink

        And we voted to close them. Are you a remainer troll?

  11. Iain Gill
    Posted August 23, 2019 at 5:10 pm | Permalink

    Sadly it is perfectly easy to live here decades with illegal status.

    Plenty living in sheds in gardens around Slough. Plenty working in the kitchens of the hospitality trade. As simple examples.

    And not just at the low skilled end of the spectrum, I know Australian teachers working here without the correct documentation, it seems to be pretty easy.

    We need passport controls between Northern Ireland and mainland UK, otherwise we will continue to have large influxes via this route.

    • Mark
      Posted August 23, 2019 at 8:29 pm | Permalink

      There are not many routes between Northern Ireland and Great Britain and the overall traffic is not very large. Illegal migrants would find it hard to pass themselves off as Irish. Having encountered the zeal with which HMRC pursued me on disembarkation in Scotland while driving a petrol engined van in case it was fuelled by Irish red diesel, it is largely a matter of whether officials are prepared to act.

      If you wish to visit Dublin by air or ferry from the UK you still can be called on for ID – for example a driving licence.

      • Iain Gill
        Posted August 24, 2019 at 11:10 am | Permalink

        complete nonsense, there are lots of people coming on coaches on the ferry, or as foot passengers, no passport required.

        the numbers will only go up given the governments current approach.

        allowing the Dublin airport, cross land border, go to the mainland on the ferry no visa required… route to continue will mainly impact the South East of England where the economic migrants head for, its not an Irish or EU problem its a South East of England problem.

    • Yorkieboy
      Posted August 23, 2019 at 8:32 pm | Permalink

      I totally agree. England voted leave, Northern ireland is not part of england so i dont even know what the issue is here

  12. Christine
    Posted August 23, 2019 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

    It’s legal immigrants you need to worry about. In his Ireland 2040 plan Leo Varadkar has stated he wants to take in 1 million migrants from outside the EU over the next 20 years. If the CTA gives these people the right to live and work in the UK we are stacking up problems for the future. We know that the biggest pull factors for migrants is the English language, jobs and benefits. Legal migrants will be able to use Ireland as a stepping-stone to the UK.

    Ireland has been a back door to Britain for years. Our Home Office isn’t fit for purpose and can’t even control immigration from outside the EU. So don’t expect them to see this problem coming or do anything about it.

    We need to put safeguards in place like we have for the commonwealth countries whereby their right to a British Ancestry Visa depends on them having a grandparent born in the UK or Ireland before a certain date . Also cancel our signature on the UN Migration Pact which is set to give migrants even more rights.

    Of course if Brexit doesn’t go well British citizens may want to use the CTA to move to the EU via Ireland in the future.

    • steve
      Posted August 24, 2019 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

      Christine

      “In his Ireland 2040 plan Leo Varadkar has stated he wants to take in 1 million migrants from outside the EU over the next 20 years.”

      I wouldn’t take much notice of what Varadkar says. He’s a little man making out he’s a big international player, while of course hiding behind Tusk’s coat tails. A little man full of puff basically.

  13. rose
    Posted August 23, 2019 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    This is timely. The remainiacs never mention the Common Travel Area. Nor, incidentally, do they mention that Southern Ireland is not in the Schengen Area.

  14. Kathleen P
    Posted August 23, 2019 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    Illegal migrants are so intent on getting into the UK that they brave the English Channel in small boats and inflatables because that treacherous journey, with the prospect of finding safe haven here, is preferable to staying in France. What makes you think they won’t hop on a ferry from Dun Loaghaire and travel in style?

    • Louth Voice
      Posted August 24, 2019 at 6:31 am | Permalink

      Fully agree. Redwood’s suggestion is a non starter. One by one the Brexiters are selling us short. Gove, Boris, Fox, now Redwood telling us he doesnt want to police our borders. I truly think only Farage understands why 17 million voted to leave

      • steve
        Posted August 24, 2019 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

        Louth Voice

        Indeed.

        I wouldn’t include Mr Redwood in the *h*t list, he’s a decent man. But as for the rest…..they’re a bunch of liars.

        Boris swanning off to France and come back having not given Macron a new backside has done it for me. The last straw as far as I’m concerned.

        Farage gets my vote.

  15. Newmania
    Posted August 23, 2019 at 5:41 pm | Permalink

    I think you have just solved the seasonal labour problem I`m just relieved we can rely on builders not to employ anyone cash in hand .
    Do you think the EU will be happy to let anyone from the UK just walk in , I mean when you are part of the club you pool the risks but now we are third country
    Do we have any terrorist risks in the UK , the EU might wish to keep out ?

    • rose
      Posted August 23, 2019 at 7:59 pm | Permalink

      They don’t seem too bothered about their Croatian border, over which come all manner of undesirable things and people, including slaves and their traffickers, and arms.

    • Richard1
      Posted August 23, 2019 at 8:51 pm | Permalink

      You can wander in and out of the EU unimpeded and unchecked all over the place.

      • Newmania
        Posted August 24, 2019 at 7:19 am | Permalink

        Really how terrible and so now you can wander straight into the UK without anyone so much as asking for your passport
        Good old Brexit

        Reply It was always stated during the referendum that the free travel area we have with the R of I would continue after Brexit

        • Karlo
          Posted August 24, 2019 at 7:36 am | Permalink

          Reply to reply, yes Brexiters kept saying the Irish border would stay open, but they never explained HOW. If the UK leaves the EU and Ireland stays in it, of course there has to be a hard border – there is a hard border at all the EU,s external frontiers, how else can the EU police its own laws? As ever, Brexiters promised the earth in 2016, but now reality and need for detail is catching up with them.

        • Richard1
          Posted August 24, 2019 at 7:52 am | Permalink

          I do not say this to criticise it but to point out that your post is wrong

        • Newmania
          Posted August 24, 2019 at 8:12 am | Permalink

          I`m hazy on that, but I clearly recall the written assurance that the EU was expanding to include Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, and Turkey; 89m people of which 5,000,000 would come here.
          One wouldn`t wish to imply that Leave lied so much as to entirely invalidate the referendum or anything, so,as I understand it, you claim that we voted to have an endless wilderness border with Syria and Iraq vaguely policed by Turkey ?
          Its ..um “counterintuitive” John.

          • Edward2
            Posted August 24, 2019 at 10:16 am | Permalink

            The assurance of EU expansion to way more than the current 28 nations comes from the EU itself.
            It is no fantasy created by leave supporters.

          • rose
            Posted August 24, 2019 at 10:47 am | Permalink

            The EU has built a wall between Turkey and Syria. A big, beautiful wall. You have helped pay for it.

          • Jiminyjim
            Posted August 24, 2019 at 11:28 am | Permalink

            You have a short memory, Newmania. We were told that less than 50,000 Romanians would come here

          • margaret howard
            Posted August 24, 2019 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

            Newmania

            “One wouldn`t wish to imply that Leave lied so much as to entirely invalidate the referendum or anything…”

            An interesting idea -:)

            I read recently that Switzerland, the land of referenda, is planning to invalidate and rerun one particular referendum which had a similar 52/48% result (I can’t remember the issue involved) because too many lies were told and voters were not given adequate independent information.

            If only we could enjoy such a democratic system of government!

          • margaret howard
            Posted August 24, 2019 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

            Newmania

            JR has seen fit to remove my reply to you as regards Switzerland invalidating a recent referenda because of the possibility of lies having been told to deceive the voters.

            Why is that idea too dangerous for this blog post?

          • Christine
            Posted August 25, 2019 at 9:41 am | Permalink

            David Cameron openly supported Turkey joining the EU. Are you saying leavers shouldn’t have believed him?

            https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-10773007/cameron-uk-strongly-supports-turkey-eu-membership-bid

            David Cameron has strongly supported Turkey’s application to join the European Union on a visit to the country.
            Speaking in Ankara, the Prime Minister said that he was “angry” at the lack of progress in the negotiations.
            He said that the UK will do everything it can to help Turkey “pave the road from Ankara to Brussels”.

  16. jasonW
    Posted August 23, 2019 at 6:16 pm | Permalink

    only one sensible thing to do is to put the EU border down the Irish Sea. Gibraltar should also be left in the EU if they still want- we make too much about all of this

    • rose
      Posted August 23, 2019 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

      The sensible thing from everyone’s point of view is to put the border across the Celtic Sea, not down the Irish Sea.

      • Sir Joe Soap
        Posted August 23, 2019 at 10:01 pm | Permalink

        I still think mini-borders down both, and make both NI and Ireland a free trade zone. No tariffs on value added to product within NI and Ireland and imported into EU or UK. Tariffs apply to raw material values behind Irish/NI goods according to tariffs applying to EU or UK from third party countries.

        • Karlo
          Posted August 24, 2019 at 7:41 am | Permalink

          So your plan to make Brexit work is to force the Irish to give up the benefits of the EU single market which has completely transformed their economy. Your arrogance is astonishing, as is your refusal to accept responsibility for the impossibility of Brexit.

          • steve
            Posted August 24, 2019 at 8:08 pm | Permalink

            Karlo

            So you expect us to be a subservient vassal in order to protect the Irish economy.

            Give us one good reason why we should.

            And I’d say it is your arrogance that is astonishing.

    • Simeon
      Posted August 24, 2019 at 7:08 am | Permalink

      Perhaps the good people of Northern Ireland should be consulted on this issue. A referendum on whether to remain in the EU or remain a part of the UK. You can’t have both. Unless of course the UK remains in the EU…

    • steve
      Posted August 24, 2019 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

      Margaret Howard

      I’ve had numerous posts pulled, I have one stuck in moderation right now. What you have to consider is that there may be something in your post, while not necessarily obvious to you, might be lawyer material.

      Unfortunately we cannot tell it like it is just anywhere these days.

      I’m pretty sure JR moderates on the basis of law rather than personal opinion. Try again perhaps ?

  17. steve
    Posted August 23, 2019 at 8:36 pm | Permalink

    Interesting comments, but it’s all irrelevant now as Boris Johnson is exposed as bending over for the French and intending to sign a fudged version of the WA.

    Say goodbye to independence, sovereignty, control of borders, UK fishing areas, etc, etc.

    “no deal is better than a bad deal” “we are leaving on the 31st Oct” “leave means leave” “the Withdrawal Agreement is dead”

    Yeah yeah it’s bullshit and lies. Though I can tell you what is NOT a lie……that the conservatives are so, so, DEAD !

    For this treachery people will see to it that the conservatives get such a hammering at the next general election that the party will be finished for good.

    Should have regained our trust rather than go swanning off licking EU boots.

    Theresa May the appeaser all over again will not wash with us.

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted August 24, 2019 at 8:13 am | Permalink

      Too bloody right Steve.

    • Christine
      Posted August 24, 2019 at 8:39 am | Permalink

      Well said.

    • Yorkieboy
      Posted August 24, 2019 at 8:49 am | Permalink

      Boris is PM only because the ERG backed him. The Tories are beyond trusting. Stick with Farage!

      • steve
        Posted August 24, 2019 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

        Yorkieboy

        Yep, Nigel Farage for me.

        That said, if we could have our own nationalist party, like Scotland does, my vote would go there.

        You’re right about the Tories though……they’re a dead party thanks to Boris’s cosying up to the French. Everyone knows he’s betrayed us over fishing and immigration, and everyone knows he’s about to wash little Varadkar’s
        feet.

        Moreover, everyone I know is so outraged as to be fanatical about destroying the conservatives. Revenge will come.

    • jane4brexit
      Posted August 24, 2019 at 11:12 am | Permalink

      There are 3.8m WASPI age women plus millions of their partners and children etc., having to support or delay retirement plans because their delayed without notice pensions were delayed, often twice for up to 6 years soon to be more, whereas I think at present EU pensions are payable from 63 or earlier.

      If only these millions could be made aware of how the WA agrees to pay EU staff pensions that the UK is not liable for, to be paid without any rebate for staff salary deductions already taken of up to 13.75% out of their salary payments over the last 40+ years and more recently non contributory amounts, all paid for by EU country citizens in countries paying in more than they receive back. (If you ‘search’ Gerard Batten and pensions, you find two articles confirming this written when he was still an MEP.)

      This would upset millions and would upset them even more if they were told that the WA also says instead of the UK paying for EU pensions for UK/EU staff only, which I have read are about 7% of all staff, the WA says we agree to pay proportionately as we do now. Meaning the UK will pay the pensions of nearer a quarter of EU staff pensions up to a date in the 2060’s while ignoring it’s own citizens.

      If this was better known it would highlight how bad the WA is quickly to millions on this issue alone and especially because Boris offered to relook at all WASPI age women’s concerns if he became PM.

      So under this WA we will agree to pay for EU pensions we are not liable for in effect three times 1. salary deductions and payment of non contributory amounts, 2. the £39b partly for pensions and 3. future pension payments for 40+ years…all paid while denying our own citizens their pensions.

      • jane4brexit
        Posted August 24, 2019 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

        I have just checked the Batten links mentioned as Ukip no longer have MEPs and they are not, the sites now say ‘Site Offline’. Titles of pension articles are still available depending where you search if you are precise, the one with a title “MEP Pension Fund: Why the EU wants our £50b. They are taking British taxpayers for mugs” needs MEP and ‘mugs’ too to find it.

        I have quoted from them before on here and our host once printed my link to the ‘mugs’ one, so it did exist… if I can find quotes I will add later if/when I can. So sorry if interested you might need to check for own proof…seems a bit Ministry of Truth’ish!

        • jane4brexit
          Posted August 25, 2019 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

          I have found the Gerard Batten quote in the “MEP Pension Fund: Why the EU wants our £50b. They are taking British taxpayers for mugs article” about an EU MEPs meeting re EU staff pensions:

          “It was clearly stated that, ‘the legal obligation to pay the pension of MEPs and Parliament staff falls on the European Union and not the Member States’. Britain has no legal obligation to pay the pensions of ex-MEPs”.

  18. Sea Warrior
    Posted August 23, 2019 at 9:07 pm | Permalink

    I couldn’t help but notice how the recent, unsuccessful bombing attempt in Ulster was only a few kilometres from the ‘open border’ with ROI.

  19. Andy
    Posted August 24, 2019 at 12:35 am | Permalink

    Illegal immigrants are illegal before Brexit.

    They will be illegal after Brexit.

    Most people on this site appear to use the word ‘illegal’ to describe anyone who is foreign.

    Perhaps you need to work harder on your understanding of it all.

    • Newmania
      Posted August 24, 2019 at 7:24 am | Permalink

      Tsk tsk Andy … its nothing to do with dim witted bigotry . The country is obsessed with out constitutional arrangements . When they do surveys and are asked “Are you a dim witted bigot ?”,most people say no , and you can`t ask for better proof than that can you.

      • Fedupsoutherner
        Posted August 24, 2019 at 8:15 am | Permalink

        Newmania, and a lot will say they’re comedians and fail dismally.

  20. Javelin
    Posted August 24, 2019 at 4:52 am | Permalink

    Virtue signalling is not free. The last lot who based economics on virtue signalling brought British industry to its knees with strike action.

    A few things to consider about the economic costs of legal or illegal cheap labour.

    Identity theft will fall
    Wages would go up
    Rents will decrease
    NHS Costs will fall
    Taxes will fall
    Crime will decrease
    Insurance costs will fall
    Enrollment in schools will fall
    Welfare costs will fall

    • rose
      Posted August 24, 2019 at 8:46 am | Permalink

      Traffic congestion and water shortages should ease too.

  21. Posted August 24, 2019 at 6:43 am | Permalink

    There are established communities of nationals of almost every country in the world. They live outside the legal criteria, providing living accommodation, jobs etc for their own nationals. There needs to be a rigorous means of removing the millions of illegal immigrants from the U.K.
    For instance, in the last 6 months (foreign run ed) shops have opened in a town I know well. They are staffed by (foreigners ed)who can hardly speak English. Where did they all come from? Why are they here and why can we not get rid of them?

  22. Denis Cooper
    Posted August 24, 2019 at 6:47 am | Permalink

    The Irish Times has ignored my most recent, eminently sensible, letter, like almost all of its many predecessors, and instead has come out with this nonsense:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/johnson-deserves-a-hearing-in-ireland-but-will-not-get-one-1.3995358

    “Johnson deserves a hearing in Ireland but will not get one”

    “At this late stage there seems little appetite for alternatives to the backstop”

    Perhaps some non-existent member of Michael Gove’s non-existent rapid rebuttal unit could point out that it is nothing to do with “this late stage” when at a much earlier stage the Irish government adopted an absurd extreme and intransigent attitude:

    http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2017/11/26/the-irish-border-with-northern-ireland/#comment-903216

    and instead of denouncing that Theresa May decided to use it as a convenient pretext to do what the Tory party usually does best, give big business whatever it wants.

    It beggars belief that Boris Johnson is prepared to demean himself by travelling to Dublin for an audience with the Great Varadkar, just to be denied any real hearing.

    On the other hand I have dropped lucky with my letter to the Irish Independent:

    https://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/letters-to-the-editor-the-uk-and-ireland-sacrificed-a-lot-for-peace-these-brexit-games-are-undoing-all-that-good-38431829.html

    “Leo is using the Border to keep UK in the EU”

    which has been published with no changes from the text as sent:

    http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2019/08/23/the-irish-border-issue/#comment-1048176

    including:

    “… Ireland’s EU Commissioner, Phil Hogan, publicly demanded that in order to “solve” the Border “problem” the UK must stay under the rules of the EU customs union and the EU single market forever.”

    • steve
      Posted August 24, 2019 at 12:08 pm | Permalink

      Dennis Cooper

      “It beggars belief that Boris Johnson is prepared to demean himself by travelling to Dublin for an audience with the Great Varadkar, just to be denied any real hearing.”

      I’m not surprised at all, the man’s all puff.

      I gave him the benefit of the doubt, but when he went to Merkel and Macron all luvvie like…..that was it for me. May the appeaser all over again.

      I’d have just one message to Boris and any other appeaser / traitor and the rest of the monkeys in Parliament who’ve been having us over for the last three years –

      ‘if any of you think you can get away with compromising our country to the ungrateful EU, you need to think again. We will NEVER forget your treachery, and we will make you pay for what you have done. Pressure from big business will be nothing compared to what we will do’

  23. Stred
    Posted August 24, 2019 at 6:55 am | Permalink

    Until we track visitors out as well as in, as in the US, then find and deport over stayers, the number of migrants will continue to rise. Note that the ridiculous counting of migrants by airport survey, asking them whether they will be staying for over a year, has been found to be incorrect. Even their adjustments will be incorrect. That reminds me – I must pop down to get the car washed by the team from Bucharest.

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted August 24, 2019 at 8:04 am | Permalink

      Stred

      Have you noticed that many of these car wash outfits don’t bother to give receipts? All back pocket stuff and no taxes paid.

    • Christine
      Posted August 24, 2019 at 8:07 am | Permalink

      ETIAS is a pre-travel authorisation system that will switch on in January 2021. This will track any visitor arriving or leaving the Schengen zone. So arrive in Spain but leave from France and you will be tracked. It will allow the authorities to police the 90/180 rule. Expats currently living in the EU but paying tax in the UK will be caught out. Those staying more than 3 months will be caught out. It will also cross check travellers against criminal databases to stop undesirables.

      Already at Alicante airport in Spain I have to scan my passport to arrive and leave. All the infrastructure is in place ready for the big switch on.

      Why isn’t the UK putting in place a similar system?

      Our Home Office isn’t fit for purpose.

      Come on Priti Patel. If the Schengen zone countries can do this it must be easier for the UK to put in place a similar system.

    • rose
      Posted August 24, 2019 at 8:50 am | Permalink

      The ONS figures have been gathered on behalf of the tourist industry at certain airports and seaports only. Interviews have not been conducted at most of the budget airports or Victoria Bus Station, let alone on the beaches. The purpose of the survey needs to change.

    • steve
      Posted August 24, 2019 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

      Stred

      “That reminds me – I must pop down to get the car washed by the team from Bucharest.”

      Consider the possibility that in doing so you might be aiding and abetting tax evasion.

  24. Denis Cooper
    Posted August 24, 2019 at 8:13 am | Permalink

    I made a long comment around this some six weeks ago:

    http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2019/07/09/answers-to-my-parliamentary-questions/#comment-1035562

    which I will not repeat, beyond reproducing this from Nigel Dodds:

    http://bit.ly/2XxVrDL

    “Somebody has said that this would be a smugglers charter — as if we do not have differential rates of VAT now. We have differential rates of excise duty and different immigration systems. This House may be surprised to know that, believe it or not, the Garda Siochana — the Irish police force — and the PSNI, the Northern Ireland police force, do stop cars and public transport either side of the border and check the occupants’ passports. They do carry out checks on the island of Ireland and have done so for many years. We recently passed laws in relation to countering terrorism that gave them more powers at the border. We have traffic cameras on the border. When travelling from Belfast to Dublin, there are police cameras and security cameras. So the idea that somehow the world is going to end in these circumstances is complete and utter nonsense.”

  25. David Jenkins
    Posted August 24, 2019 at 9:50 am | Permalink

    Difficulties in getting work or living a normal life are not going to b other illegal immigrants. They can become criminals and even if caught they will be the recipients of Benefits while their cases are heard, and while they await deportation. Steps must be taken to prevent illegal entry to the UK through the Republic of Ireland.

  26. Denis Cooper
    Posted August 24, 2019 at 10:51 am | Permalink

    There are people commenting on this thread who are either unaware that the Common Travel Area not only predates the EU and our membership thereof by decades, but has always been expressly recognised in the EEC/EC/EU treaties since we both joined:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area

    Or they do know that and are they just despicable deceitful Remoaning trolls.

  27. J Bush
    Posted August 24, 2019 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

    If as you say there is “substantial co-operation across the border over criminals today and this will remain” why are there so many foreign criminals in our prisons and why have they not been deported to serve their sentence in t heir homeland?

    It is British politicians who have decided the British taxpayer should fund the UK prisons, the same people who have been victimised by these criminals!

    I am of the opinion that the politicians who want this insanity to continue should have all tax funded protection removed. Let them ‘run the gauntlet’ with the rest of us and see if they are still of the same opinion once they have been burgled, robbed, attacked and given a crime number, or ignored for PC reasons.

  28. BillM
    Posted August 24, 2019 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    We should never underestimate the criminal mind. If there is money in bringing in Illegals to Southern Ireland to cross to the North, they will find ways to do it.

  • About John Redwood


    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, He graduated from Magdalen College Oxford, has a DPhil and is a fellow of All Souls College. A businessman by background, he has been a director of NM Rothschild merchant bank and chairman of a quoted industrial PLC.

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