This is a bad deal. The government should drop it now. Parliament is unlikely to pass the necessary legislation for it. I will vote against were they to try. If we cant get a good future partnership before we pay them any extra money, why would we get one once we have signed away the cash?
131 Comments
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November 13, 2018
Dear Dr Redwood,
Have you seen it?
When will the 500 pages and legal opinion be published?
November 13, 2018
All the necessary votes have been passed so bring on 29th March 2019.
November 13, 2018
The draft Withdrawal Agreement is a blatant act of betrayal by the PM and she has lied to us all this time. If it gets voted through by the Cabinet it will be an act of betrayal by the British Govt and one for which I will renounce my citizenship. With a Commonwealth wife there is no need to be British when we are not welcome
November 13, 2018
Yes it does seem this Brino is worse than either WTO Brexit or remain. I suspect Labour will split, some against, some for but the front bench abstaining. That way Brino will limp through and Corbyn will think he has damaged the May govt enough to give the chance of an election whilst avoiding the blame for Brino. Then he and McDonnell will have a chance for a Venezuela type experiment / disaster in the UK. It is the threat of Corbyn not the possible minimal impact on the 13% of our GDP which is trade with the EU which is casting a pall over confidence at the moment.
November 13, 2018
How many nurses get sacked to pay the EU off?
Just keep asking May the question.
There is no response she can make that will be believed.
November 13, 2018
May and Merkel have spent over 2 years cooking this one up, May is not going to let her EU pal down by suddenly calling it off. Itâs up to you guys now to stop her.
IDS was correct when he said on TV today that the Cabinet ministers spines werenât joined to their brains. So best not rely on them resigning in protest.
November 13, 2018
Nothing to add to this except that the Cabinet should turn up tomorrow and say 1) We haven’t had time to do justice to this document and 2) This is not Cabinet Government and you, Prime Minister must resign.
November 14, 2018
500 and legalese. If the previous documents are anything to go by it will be badly written to.
I thought the SNP would bail her out but it seems she didn’t think of sending them a copy and they aren’t flattered.
November 13, 2018
My stomach’s been churning today in fear of this moment. I just hope there’s enough MP’s like your goodself to vote it down.
November 14, 2018
John Slade
I just hope thereâs enough MPâs like your goodself to vote it down.
Do not hold your breath.
November 14, 2018
I feel exactly the same as you John Slade.
“All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”
When are the Tory Brexit MPs going to DO something about Remoaner May, instead of just whinging?! She absolutely has to go.
November 14, 2018
Don’t count on it John, never a more perfidious bunch of representatives have we ever had. The Labour party talk out of both sides of their mouths at the same time, trying to pretend to be all things to all people, they assume people that support them are thick and they will be re-elected forever as they were in Stoke (big mistake there as once elected they could be forgotten about as they’ve been for decades with schools at the bottom of leagues, overstretched social services and the same mistakes being repeated for the past five decades that I’m aware of. The Conservative Party have seven MPs who stood for election on a Brexit platform and are betraying their manifesto pledges, the honourable thing would have been for them to try to get re-elected as lib dems and let true Tories run on a blue badge.
November 14, 2018
We have to able to repeal all Agreements and Treaties resulting from the Chequers proposals. If this entails withdrawing our signature from the International Law of Treaties that Lord Caradon signed in 1970, so be it.
November 14, 2018
According to The Times, Barnierâs deputy Sabine Weyand told EU ambassadors:
I don’t think it gets much clearer than that.
November 14, 2018
Maybe ERG members should resign the whip and stand as independents. This would remove the government’s majority and I guess we’d get a Labour government. They could keep us in the EU. Anything would be better than this humiliation. I said months ago we would not be leaving.
November 14, 2018
If the likes of our host stay as Conservatives they will go down with the ship anyway, might as well all leave and start a real Conservative party.
November 14, 2018
How do we stop this?
I feel we are in the grip of a new Edward Heath type figure. So rigid in her own righteousness and impervious to the wishes of those she ought to be representing .
All we need her to do now is wave a piece of paper from the steps of a plane.
November 14, 2018
Des
All we need her to do now is wave a piece of paper from the steps of a plane.
She has done that in her head months ago. Totally disgraceful
November 14, 2018
Des
Agreed.
John how have we come to this when the Statement “NOTHING IS AGREED UNTIL ALL IS AGREED has been the very basis of such talks.”.
Given no trade deal has been agreed, given no fishing rights have been agreed, and many other items have no agreement, why a vote on this, at this time, when so much is still outstanding.
Does this not fly in the face of the original statement.
November 14, 2018
Far worse.At least Chamberlain was only giving away someone else’s country,not his own!
November 14, 2018
This deal only makes sense if you are on the side of the EU.Rumour has it tat a deal has been done. That can only mean another concession by Mrs May. I didn’t think there was anything left to concede. Perhaps Mrs May’s plan is simply to dispense with UK Parliament completely and agree to direct rule by Le Petit Napoleon Macron, whose new ADC and good luck charm will obviously be Irish Fairy Leo Varadkar, backed by (or opposed by?) Kommandierender General Frau Angela Merkel’s Imperial Army.
Well it would save a lot of bother, I guess, with all this democracy nonsense.
Apologies if I have said this before but it is now quite clear that Chequers is not about withdrawal from the EU. It is an accession agreement intended to keep UK as close as possible to the EU so that when the EU completes its economic and monetary union, as intended during the next five year plan following the May 2019 elections, UK will be able to slip effortlessly into what will, by 2025, be under new treaties and form the foundations of the Federal State of Europe, which the EU expects to be in place in the next five year plan after that, ie by about 2028-30. This is the destination to which Mrs May and her Remainer colleagues are aiming to steer UK. UK will be in the vanguard of the post democracy era. This is Mrs May’s vision. We all thought she had no vision. She does. It is just that it is one no British Prime Minister could state openly.
November 14, 2018
Until now it’s been in Tory MPs hands to get rid of May and this deal.
The irony now on is that, because of the split in your party, it will be Labour’s position which decides the country’s future. If that results in no deal, we can be pretty certain May will pull another trick to cave in a bit more.
November 14, 2018
Farage on TV this morning saying May is the most dishonest PM in history. 17.5 million people will believe him.
Your party and govt are done.
Corbyn is a dead cert. Your gutless MPs deserve it.
November 14, 2018
**Your party and govt are done.**
This, sadly, I agree with. If the MPs will not put the voters before their interests when in government, why should the voters stand behind them when at the ballot box?
November 14, 2018
Hope
Even though he never made it to Westminster, the man is still respected by those who wanted out completely.
On the Victoria BBC show this morning only one person got it right.
May stands down and the party selects an interim leader who is respected by the majority. That name? John Redwood was mentioned as the only one that could be trusted to honour the vote.
At last the BBC have broadcast something really believable regarding Brexit.
Well it had to happen eventually.
November 14, 2018
Indeed Farage is probably right, though there is some strong competition from other PMs. If May is allowed to get away with it the party is surely done.
November 14, 2018
Two words, should and unlikely, which it will more than likely sail through.
November 14, 2018
If a person or party betrays a nation with the largest turn out in history to vote for something then it should not come as a surprise the people will seek revenge.
Line dems were the only party to support remain! At least they were honest about that aspect.
November 14, 2018
But how many Liberal MPs voted for the Referendum Bill? It was passed 6-1. They were the first party to say they wanted an in-out referendum.
November 14, 2018
This is what your passivity and that of fellow Brexit MPs has led to. You should have deposed Theresa May years ago. You tories always seem to have some excuse for doing nothing. For god sake act now.
November 14, 2018
I would agree FJ. It seems that the Brexiter MPs think that that at least if they have put in writing that they do not agree with May, and vote against it in Parliament, that will suffice. It will not. The electorate does not like appeasers.
I really think that all Tory MPs, not just the Brexiter MPs, do not have a clue as to the enormous significance of what Theresa May has done, and nor are they willing to face up to the enormous anger of a betrayed electorate. For them to think that merely writing or giving speeches is sufficient demonstrates starkly their weakness and lack of principles, in my view.
They should be prepared to fight for those principles and if that means resignations even from the Conservative Party, then so be it. How else can May be stopped?
November 14, 2018
Chris
They should be prepared to fight for those principles and if that means resignations even from the Conservative Party.
You will not need too many hands to count the number who are prepared to really fight. The remainder nodding donkeys all of them.
November 14, 2018
The view is now, a bad deal is better than no deal, your party have had over two years to get ready to leave the EU and have done nothing, no money has been released for leaving and paperwork has been done to leave, it has been clear from the outset that your party was never going to prepare for leaving the EU and now it to late, you have blindly and loyalty follow your party instead of putting your foot down with other with your views and insisted on getting ready to leave the EU at the start of the vote to leave, which would of stop last years election as well, but you decided to talks your way through and took no action like threating to leave the party with other if they didn’t.
Now you have left yourself with others compromised if this deal goes through and your position in your party will untenable and will end up doing what you should have done in the first place. You allowed it to happen.
November 14, 2018
Agreed. Interesting to see what happens at Cabinet level first.
Peston reckons it will be soundly defeated if it goes to parliament as she has not got the numbers.
November 14, 2018
You overlook labour voting tactically
November 14, 2018
Why would they support May’s proposal tactically ?
How could they gain from that action ?
Personally, I think Robert Preston is right. May’s proposal will die in the House of Commons.
November 14, 2018
The review mechanism needs to be meaningful.
And there should be a hard absolute sunset clause. An easy amendment to propose
A finite implementation is acceptable, albeit not desirable or necessary: an unending one is not
November 14, 2018
Well, the sun does set over the Irish border each evening but it is still there the next morning and still available to be used as a pretext to keep as much as possible of the UK and its economy under as much as possible of EU law for as long as possible, that is to say in perpetuity, which is what Theresa May is seeking to achieve. She would say that a “sunset clause” is not “negotiable”, which is a way of saying that she can rely on the EU to prevent the UK having something that she does not want us to have.
November 14, 2018
As a leaver this is a depressing day. What I feared and suspected is coming to pass. May must be removed and replaced with a Leaver. Someone who actually believes in this country and has a vision for our future, one which does not involve being the vassal of the EU.
It is sickening having won the referendum to witness control being taken by the losers who for reasons I cannot understand want control and resources of this great country to be passed to German controlled EU.
I will never understand it. I have little faith in the weak cabinet or pro EU parliament to stop this betrayal.
I thought we lived in a great democracy. I have discovered we do not. If this goes through I shall never vote again.
November 14, 2018
@ Tony Henry
“I thought we lived in a great democracy. I have discovered we do not. If this goes through I shall never vote again.”
You will not be alone.
Robbins and May have destroyed democracy, trust in the political system and the Conservative party.
Haven’t they done well?
November 14, 2018
The most frightening was the report from Brussels
Meanwhile, The Times reports that EU Brexit negotiator Sabine Weyand told EU27 ambassadors, âWe should be in the best negotiation position for the future relationship.â Weyand also said that the temporary customs union the UK would agree to under the Withdrawal Agreement would constitute âthe basis of the future relationship,â adding, âThey [UK] must align their rules but the EU will retain all the controls. They apply the same rules. UK wants a lot more from future relationship, so EU retains its leverage.â This comes as Politico reports that EU officials say the Withdrawal Agreement âwill set a precedentâ for future UK-EU relations, with the EU reportedly not intending to accept a loosening of this relationship later on. Weyand reportedly also said that that UK âwould have to swallow a link between access to products and fisheries in future agreements.â
November 14, 2018
The Irish border will still be there, unless and until north and south are united, but the Irish government will still be pretending that there is no border and none must be allowed to emerge, and it will still have a veto over any changes to the UK-EU relationship which was originally laid down in the withdrawal agreement.
I repeat again what the Irish EU commissioner said a year ago:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ireland-border-brexit-latest-theresa-may-customs-union-phil-hogan-northern-a8076271.html
âBrexit: Remain in customs union and single market to solve border issue, Irelandâs European commissioner tells Mayâ
âTheresa May is facing fresh pressure to change course over plans for the Northern Irish border after Brexit as Irelandâs EU commissioner stepped up threats to veto trade talks.â
âMr Hogan, the EUâs agriculture commissioner, said Ireland would âplay tough to the endâ over the border issue, and said it was a âvery simple factâ that âif the UK or Northern Ireland remained in the EU customs union, or better still the single market, there would be no border issueâ.â
Some people think it is just the EU as a whole being awkward, but the Irish government has been central to that obstructive attitude and I see no reason why that should change in the future.
November 14, 2018
You must vote or you might get May by default! Have the courage to oust her where gutless Tory MPs failed for nearly a year!
November 14, 2018
“I thought we lived in a great democracy. I have discovered we do not. If this goes through I shall never vote again.”
This is exactly what the EU, Mrs. May and her EU collaborators in Parliament and elsewhere want to hear! They want an end to elections and poor voter turn out is just the excuse they need!
You must vote, even if it is simply to attempt to remove anti-democracy EU supporting MPs.
If you are unlucky enough to have no suitable party on the ballot paper then either enter one you know exists elsewhere for whom you would vote or simply “none listed” and tick accordingly.
Even spoilt ballot papers are recorded.
November 14, 2018
PS :
Cut down where possible on purchasing EU goods to try to bring down our enormous ÂŁ80bn/year trade deficit with the EU.
November 14, 2018
Your dismay and despondency is echoed by many, TH. In my view, May has employed Marxist techniques of lying, deception and bullying, one step at a time in order to achieve her goal (which is not to leave the EU).
Backed by her civil servants and an army of Remainers she has managed to impose her will on the electorate and to effectively emasculate her opposition i.e. Tory Brexiter MPs. They have never put up an effective fight so it has been easy for May, surprisingly easy.
This kow towing to May and Brussels depresses any sane minded person, and this “depression” is a tool of Marxists to rule people. It is easy to rule and impose if your people are weak, disillusioned and without hope.
President Trump offered hope to those people in the USA and that is why he won. Lessons aplenty from over the pond for our Brexiter MPs.
November 14, 2018
Tony Henry et al
Never voting again is EXACTLY what they want you to do….
Everyone predicting the end of the Tory party ( myself included) has one big problem. There is NO ONE to vote for to end this madness
We need a temporary political party , the Full Brexit Party made up of independents standing on that ticket plus supporting those Tory and Labour MP’s who also support Brexit
November 14, 2018
Lots of MEPs becoming unemployed soon.
November 14, 2018
**If this goes through I shall never vote again.**
Oh no. Please vote. Vote for the independents, the small parties, the Monster Raving Loonies if you prefer, but vote.
If no one turns out to vote, the candidates draw straws so the same people have a chance to get in.
Or consider this: If you usually vote for the winning party, and do not vote, you reduce the majority by one. If you vote against them, then you reduce it by a potential two: the vote they lost and (if your candidate comes second) the vote for the runner up. At the very least, your vote gives an independent candidate the chance to retain their deposit.
November 14, 2018
Yes always vote, even if only to spoil your paper but preferably for an independent
November 14, 2018
While I will vote for an independent or UKIP candidate if there is one for me to vote for what I will not do is vote Conservative.
They have shown no respect for democracy and have abused the trust of the electorate so do not deserve my vote in future.
Many on this blog have given fair warning of what will happen if we are sold down the river I really do hope they are true to their words.
Well done TM, you have gone from hero to zero and taken the Conservative party with you.
November 14, 2018
Absolutely, I’m sorry for people like John Redwood but we must vote tactically to destroy the Conservative party now and start afresh.
November 14, 2018
There should be a compulsory quorum on election day if less than 50% of the public turn out all the parties have to offer alternative candidates.
November 14, 2018
Why not vote UKIP which has policies I’m sure you agree with? It’s the mentality of assuming there are 2 parties ( and perhaps the Libs) which makes our future hopeless.
November 14, 2018
Exactly, but reason and logic are not Appeaser Mayâs strong point, indeed what is? If the Tories do push this truly appalling deal through using some Labour support, they will surely be done for and rightly so.
This even if they do eventually find a new leader to replace this appalling, duplicitous, fake Tory and her tax, highest taxes for 50 years, side kick, the IHT ratter Philip Hammond.
November 14, 2018
Agreed. From what I hear and read this draft Withdrawal Agreement is wholly unacceptable.
November 14, 2018
It is an absolute disgrace that you keep claiming the money has anything to do with the future relationship. It does not – as our government has made completely clear, it concerns only the settlement of existing liabilities. It is NOTHING to do with the future. You know this is so – but you keep misrepresenting the position. Why do you not tell the truth?
November 14, 2018
As nothing is agreed until everything is agreed your statement that the money has nothing to do with a future relationship is incorrect.
Our liabilities stretch to membership tribute until 29 March 2019.
The EU owes us for infrastructure we have contributed towards. Maybe there should be a toll booth in the dual Parliament buildings in Brussels and Strasbourg.
November 14, 2018
John has told the truth – we don’t owe any money. There are no liabilities to settle, as they aren’t in the Treaties.
Sure the UK participated in the spending commitments, so we can discuss with the EU to continue to support them in exchange for a return on the investment. Galileo is a good example.
The offer of money was an inept action by the PM in the forlorn hope it would curry favour with the EU and facilitate negotiations. She should have played hardball.
If you feel sorry for the EU, perhaps you might consider making your own donation. I fancy the only money promised to such a fund would be by individuals volunteering the money of others.
November 14, 2018
Renton, you should have a little chat with Terry Smith on the other thread:
“If we do not pay the 39bn, we do not get even a discussion about our future trade relations with the EU … “
November 14, 2018
Renton
Please report back to Remain Troll Farm Commander Newmania
He was telling us yesterday that the ÂŁ39 billion payment was due because of Brexit and was a payment to secure a deal
November 14, 2018
Renton, We cannot possibly owe more than we would have paid if we had remained in. It is completely wrong to continue paying after we have left. Therefore the maximum we owe is our net contributions until the end of the outline budget (MFF) which concludes in Dec 2020. The maximum is about ÂŁ18bn, not ÂŁ39bn. But the EU owes us for money and assets we have in the EU. Depending on assumptions the balance is about ÂŁ0bn. The ÂŁ39bn is Danegeld – what Mrs May would pay the EU to go away – it is blackmail.
November 14, 2018
NickC
Danegeld? The ÂŁ1b+ bribe Mrs May gave to the DUP for 10 votes to keep herself and her party in power was Danegeld.
We were known as the ‘Sick man of Europe’ and on the verge of collapse before we begged to join the European community. Industry was collapsing, interest rates were spiralling and inflation was rampant.
You obviously can’t remember the food, fuel and power shortages or the steadily growing balance of payments deficit.
The common market had to pump in 25% of its regional development funds to stabilise the nation, the highest ever figure.
Did we ever give that back once EU membership returned us to prosperity? Or the billions they gave to our many impoverished, neglected regions?
November 15, 2018
margaret
All you say in your post has been demolished as complete nonsense on several previous occasions.
Cut and pasting and repeating the same falsehoods is a very poor thing to do.
But typical of extremist remainers.
November 16, 2018
margaret howard
OK you’ve proved that you can cut and paste fake news repeatedly Have you got anything factual to add?
I know why not tell us what the EU can give us as a member that we can’t get as an independent country
November 14, 2018
You MUST be right. How can we possibly owe more than the club membership would cost anyway? I have never come across a convincing explanation of this. It must simply be a punishing fine for saying we don’t like the E.U. – and May is happy to pay it!
November 14, 2018
NickC
When we joined were we excused payments for all those projects which were in the pipeline and on which decisions had already been made.?
Answer No, so why should different rules apply when we leave.
Has any employer kept up pension payments for an employee when they leave and join another Company.
No not unless you were perhaps a lucky director who was sacked before his fixed contract term ended and it formed part of the settlement.
November 14, 2018
JR, Theresa May must be deposed this week. This may be the last opportunity we have for the Conservatives to defeat the Remainers/globalists. The last opportunity for restoring sovereignty to our Parliament, for controlling our borders and our money and for English Common Law to prevail over the European Court of Justice. Please do not fail us.
November 14, 2018
I agree. I’ve tried to give her the benefit of the doubt and to believe what she says. In my view she has broken her promises (consider what she said in the Mansion House speech and what was in the Tory manifesto). Enough is enough. We need someone who believes in Brexit at the helm.
November 14, 2018
The majority of the Conservative Parliamentary party (and I suspect much of the Conservative vote) are fearful of leaving the EU. Soubry, Grieve, Wollerston et al are merely the tip of the iceberg.
If Mrs May is deposed she will be replaced by another whet in her image.
November 14, 2018
Good morning.
It is indeed a bad deal for democracy, but a good one for the Civil Service, the Establishment and big business. An Associate Agreement for when we ‘rejoin’ the EU.đ
November 14, 2018
‘The government must not sign this draft Withdrawal Agreement’
Oh, John. You know full well that this should read,
‘The Prime Minister must not sign this draft Withdrawal Agreement’
What have Tory voters done that we have to suffer the cowardice and lack of conviction from our Parliamentary party?
We are angry because we have been treated as fools and we therefore verbally attack those who have the influence to change events and yet we see no possibility of change.
My contempt for May is even greater than my contempt for Marxist Labour. Both are vehemently anti-democratic and find democracy an inconvenience to their political aims.
We, the voter, are mere blockages in the system. We, the taxpayer, are mere financial slaves to the State system. We are here to be abused
And then we look to decent MPs for direction. Kate Hoey is one of the finest Parliamentary MPs of the last 50 years. Honest, brave and decent. Many Tory MPs pale into insignificance compared to Hoey.
This agreement will be signed and the UK electorate will be abused. The Tories will, like slime, slither around like they have done since they deposed MT. Marxist Labour will relish the damage to the party and prepare for the next GE with gusto, misplaced.
I can only hope that decent Tory MPs rise up and depose the liberal left fascist that’s infected our party from the top and save the UK from decades of subservience
A useless party dying from the inside
November 14, 2018
I agree that Kate Hoey and also Frank Fields are MPs with belief and conviction. I saw Frank Fields speak and I think he is genuinely caring about other people and is convicted to being about change to help them.
I look at the current crop of crap in the cabinet and there is not one I would trust or vote for. Ministers still in place are too dull to realise that they will not hold office for very much longer. They were stupid,to,stay with May from December last year, okay some,are simple and could not read or understand hat May was up to. By July it was abundantly obvious her dishonest behaviour was on full view to betray the nation.
Unfortunately for JRM and others to give public support of May totally discredits them. Now her betrayal proposal is complete it only discredits JRM, Davis and others for speaking up for her weeks ago.
I think Corbyn is now a shoe in. Quite right as Tory govt has failed on every policy issue: Brexit, economy, crime, immigration, prisons, health, education, defence. Completely hopeless.
November 14, 2018
@Duncan
You elected Mrs May & chums on a false prospectus. I wasn’t fooled.
Peter Hitchens was correct when he said that the Tory Party needs to be completely destroyed to make room for a real conservative party.
November 14, 2018
Agreed. Fake Conservatives with a handful of true believers. May has killed democracy and we all know it. She no longer holds a mandate to Govern and should go. We need an election to put English patriot Brexiteers in the majority.
November 14, 2018
Some years ago I was banned by the editors of the ConservativeHome website for the heinous offence of repeatedly asking whether Tory party members who were angling for election to our national Parliament actually believed in its sovereignty. With the media speculating that Theresa May can rely on about 80% of Tory MPs to support her abject surrender to the EU then I think the answer is now clear and it is a great pity that the question was not permitted and properly pursued at the time.
November 14, 2018
It sounds as though it is an truly appalling deal and not merely a bad one. Worse even than staying in and far, far worse than just leaving. Well done Robbins and May, what a great achievement!
November 14, 2018
LL – we can only assume that Oily R and Teresa M have a lot to gain – in ways that are not yet apparent.
November 14, 2018
She just does what he says and he as an ex communist may regard the EU as the next best thing to the Soviet Union. They have many similarities in structure after all, what with the sham parliament and the unelected bureaucracy above it.
November 14, 2018
Lifelogic, that is just what Robbins and May wanted to achieve, a deal worse than staying in. All in preparation for then encouraging people to vote to go back in the EU to end the slave state scenario. Make no mistake, this is all carefully planned by the globalists, and May et al are willing puppets apparently.
November 14, 2018
The EU have already said they expect the future partnership deal to be based on the withdrawal agreement – so CU membership forever. Doubt Corbyn would sign up to this with the state aid limits – he will have to save Brexit.
November 14, 2018
The Chief Whip is confident he can get the votes. Be prepared everybody to be sold out.
November 14, 2018
What else could he say? The Leader of the House was equally emollient.
November 14, 2018
They know their sheep. Baaaaa.
November 14, 2018
We need a new Party PDQ
November 14, 2018
The draft deal is worse than appalling. It is deeply sickening that it has been negotiated by our own prime minister’s team (unelected … and I learnt that Mr Robbins used to be PPS to Tony BLair).
Apparently Mrs May did not answer Penny Mordaunt’s question, asking about release of Cabinet MPs from collective responsibility in the Commons vote on the deal.
November 14, 2018
Amazing that after so much time we end up in position where we are giving away huge sums of money, all of our sovereignty, all of our trade rules and laws, to an unelected group of foreign leaders, for the promise of absolutely nothing as yet in return, other than for extending even more talks.
Is business any wiser about its terms of future trade with the EU Countries after all of these talks, and this so called agreement/surrender ?
NO !
So what actually has been the point, why are we even talking about signing something like this ?.
May has been a disgrace, quite how she is still in charge of her Party, only her Party Members of Parliament can answer.
Surely to goodness the majority of Conservative Mp’s can find someone who has more of a clue, surely this farce cannot be allowed to continue, can it.
Now just wait for her to threaten to call an election if she does not get her way.
If Mrs May is in charge of your Party come the next election John, there is no way I can vote Conservative, no matter how much I support your views.
November 14, 2018
May I ask why you have rejected this agreement publicly without reading it?
I am struck listening to the many factions this morning trying to lead the narrative and dealing in supposition.
The media is complicit in this allowing speculation and opinion to be presented as fact.
Your dissection of the proposed deal once read will be forensic and insightful. I would prefer to deal in facts.
In spite of the above I am not hopeful that Mrs May and her EUphile flunkies have negotiate any leaving arrangement that I could support.
Reply We have known the main points for some time. I reject the idea that we pay them a lot of money and spend another 21 months or more discussing a future partnership. It is that simple.
November 14, 2018
The PM is acting more and more like a dictator.
I cannot understand as to why the cabinet has not already told her that they will not support this rotten deal.
Are they being threatened that she will call an election if they don’t support her? If so those 48 plus letters of ‘no confidence’ should be put into today without fail.
November 14, 2018
It’s time to write your letter!
November 14, 2018
Ian Murray
Any Tory MP who believes in the real total sovereignty of this country should be putting the date on the already typed letter and seal the envelope. Sadly too many talk the talk and that is about the rub of it. On Daily Politics today here we go again nothing about sovereignty just more talk about the fear of supplies not getting through for our JIT operation. It will bankrupt the suppliers long before the manufacturer’s it is those people that will stop this nonsense. The guests on the programme have not got a clue about how real business actually works in the real world, because they have never worked in that environment. The way MPs are selected is really under scrutiny and change is going to have to happen.
November 14, 2018
You havenât read the document. Virtually none of the Brexiteers have seen it.
And yet before any of you had a chance to read a word you all came out to object.
You are all coming across as professional malcontents.
Brexiteers have shown that they have little to add to the debate.
Time to step aside Brexiteers – let the grown ups deal with it now.
Reply Munch of the Agreement has been available for a long time and much discussed.
November 14, 2018
If you recall Theresa May said at the start that she would not be giving a running commentary, and that has meant not even to her cabinet or to her party’s MPs or to MPs in relevant select committees meeting in camera, let alone to the despised plebs; and so for once, Andy, you are quite right: we can have no precise knowledge of what additional concessions she has made until some jointly agreed document is published by both the EU and the UK government, and even then it will probably still be open to later reinterpretation. I have seen it suggested today that her life would be a whole lot easier if secret treaties were still seen as an acceptable way of conducting international relations, then she could get Parliamentary approval of an innocuous text while keeping the real agreement under wraps.
November 14, 2018
The remain posse of Soubry, Grieve, Ummuna, Lammy and cohort also reject it without reading it.
Where is your ire for them?
November 14, 2018
Much, not Munch, but “The Scream” properly represents a True Brit in horror.
November 15, 2018
Freudian slip. Perhaps he was thinking of Munich.
November 14, 2018
If this bill is passed the CP should be renamed Remainer Party. No genuine Leaver MP can continue to take this Whip.
The UK Leaving should be as straightforward as resigning from any organisation but we are being subjected to and sadly accepting blackmail.
This moment ranks in history with Magna Carta, U.S., French and Russian revolutions.
November 14, 2018
A bit dramatic. After all, we’ve been members of the EU for some time. All that’s happened is our democracy has proved too weak to extract us. A sad paragraph in history, but not world-shattering.
November 14, 2018
The betrayal is almost complete – all the melodrama surrounding this week’s late night “negotiations” was all part of the orchestrated charade. To many of us this has been blindingly obvious for many months. The question is if the Conservative MPs really do have a death wish. It would seem many do and I well remember Maastricht, as will our esteemed host, when ultimately party loyalty trumped all else. If that happens again then the Conservative party will lose popularity from which it may well never recover. The DUP seem to have more principle than the Conservative government and many of its MPs.
November 14, 2018
JR,
This is amazing you obviously know all the details and can therefore advise even before, anybody else has read the 500 pages, well done
Reply Yes, I know all the main points of the Agreement as these have been out in public for many weeks!
November 14, 2018
Where have you been, hci?
November 14, 2018
It’s a 500 word document drafted by the European Commission not the UK Government so all their resources have been deployed to subtly or otherwise include clauses which bind us in. I recall Camilla Cavendish complaining some years ago about ministers who advocated EU treaties without ever reading them properly. Who will study this document in fine detail and publicise the real implications?
It’s no good relying on obtaining the legal advice on the draft withdrawal terms. The client for that advice is the PM so if the advice says the proposed terms are ok on balance where do we go from there?
November 14, 2018
All Brexiters should apologise to Gina Miller for their treatment of her, and all Brexiters should now fulsomely thank her for suing to force a vote in Parliament on the matter. The Brexiters wanted to hand over complete power to the Executive, back when they thought the Executive was doing their biding. This flippant attitude towards Parliamentary sovereignty shows us the true face of the Brexiters.
And Jo Johnson was correct, Brexit is worse than Suez. Congratulations, Brexiters. You could not have undermined the country any more than if you were the agents of a foreign power. (And hopefully Mueller will uncover evidence of those who were in fact agents of a foreign power.)
November 14, 2018
wab
Please report to European Army conscription office
The EU Army is now gearing up to fight the USA and China and they need you.
100 years ago and still no lessons learned
November 14, 2018
And David Cameron should apologise for the passage of an EU referendum Act which was silent on what would ensue from a vote to leave the EU, as was repeatedly pointed out at the time.
November 14, 2018
Quite right ..T May should give up , she is useless . Let us hand over the government of the country to John Redwood and Jeremy Corbyn , who are as one on this issue
They can walk out in a huff and they can take the blame
Ok so it would be a disaster as anyone in almost any line of business will happily tell you but there is an upside .It would , once and for all remind the country that there is a reason we ignore irresponsible extremists. They are fine for local debating societies but not to do anything..obviously .
Over to you John , your ball , you take the wheel, you are doing a fantastic job from the back seat
PS Jesus I have just remembered we are actually probably going to get Jeremy Corbyn… what a farce , frankly the sooner this generation is gone the better , young people seem very sensible generally
November 15, 2018
Corbyn is an old man.
Did you not know?
November 14, 2018
Yes, it is imperative this withdrawal agreement is not signed and it is binned and becomes nothing more than an unnecessary 8 month delay.
Mrs May is brazen in her wrong-headedness and must be deposed and replaced by a Brexiteer, otherwise the Conservative party (except ERG) will be complicit in her sins.
Who would have thought a vicar’s daughter could be so deceitful, duplicitous and disloyal.
November 14, 2018
The only way you can save the country from Corbyn is for you and your Leave chums to endorse Mrs May’s deal on the grounds that leaving the EU is impossible and explain why.
There was no will to follow through the 2016 result. All Leave politicians turned out to be full of air.
November 14, 2018
The way that this whole game has been played since the Mansion House speech has been a disgrace. There are so many words one could use to describe the shameful way the Prime Minister has treated her colleagues in government – duplicitous is probably the most appropriate.
Cabinet ministers and particularly the two successive Brexit Secretaries can be under no illusion that Mrs May had any respect for their judgement or ability as she has undermined them at every turn, preferring to trust Robbins to carry out the negotiations rather than her own ministers. The end result is a disaster.
Now we come to the end game. The unedifying prospect of Cabinet Ministers not being trusted to have their own copy of the 500 page draft withdrawal agreement to study in depth before being asked to approve it is shocking. It tells you everything you need to know about the Prime Minister’s attitude and behaviour in Government.
She is clearly trying to bounce the document through cabinet by a combination of threats, bribery and blackmail. I for one could not work for her. Let’s hope that members of the cabinet discover some backbone and refuse to endorse it.
November 14, 2018
JR, Lord Hague on the radio this morning repeated one of the PM’s mantras ‘we will be gaining control of our borders….no longer paying huge sums to the EU…..leaving the CAP and CFP…..’ and was using those reasons for urging others to back the PM’s deal. Unsurprisingly, the BBC did not ask the obvious, which is: ‘WHEN will we be achieving those things?’ Can you please hold your colleagues to account, and make sure that the public is told unequivocally whether any of these things are agreed in the Withdrawal Agreement and if so, WHEN. Perhaps you could answer these questions on this site when you have seen and read the draft? Thank you
Reply The answer is no time soon
November 14, 2018
Mr Redwood. You could ask the PM very publicly to confirm this point, as according to you, not only the PM but also Lord Hague, are deliberately misleading the public!
November 14, 2018
It’s quite simple really. Mrs May gave categorical assurances to the country which, if fulfilled, should command support. If these assurances are not fulfilled, or are fulfilled in word only, then the plan should be rejected. Nothing personal, Prime Minister.
November 14, 2018
If May thinks this is a good deal she would publish the entire text on gov.uk, allowing us all to read it for ourselves, and for debate in the country to reach the same conclusion. Instead, she is trying to avoid anyone having time to read it, and to bounce it through cabinet and Parliament. She has shown a will to capitulate at every turn. Not only should you and other MPs vote the deal down, but May must be removed.
November 14, 2018
I read elsewhere that if the UK is still in the EU in 2025 we would be obliged to join the Euro.
Guy Verhofstadt certainly said some months back that if we wished to “remain” now (i.e rejoin, having submitted the A50 letter) the terms would include joining the Euro.
Surely even the most ardent Remainers don’t want this, but I don’t hear it mentioned so, I wonder, do they “know what they are voting for”……
I don’t understand why clarifying questions on this point aren’t being posed by the BBC and MSM. Can anyone with firm knowledge shed any light on this Euro issue?
November 14, 2018
JR, I think all Tory MPs would do well to read this Irish Times article today:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/varadkar-treads-fine-line-between-overreach-and-triumph-on-brexit-deal-1.3696941
“Varadkar treads fine line between overreach and triumph on Brexit deal”
“Government can claim huge success if mooted backstop is reflected in final deal”
“Although the backstopâs primary intention was to avoid a hard border and protect the Belfast Agreement, it has now lassoed the UK into a much closer trading relationship, for the medium term at least, than most Brexiters wanted.”
But not a much closer “trading relationship” than Theresa May wanted, of course.
“The provisions of the backstop will then kick in if the EU and UK have not yet concluded a deal on a future trading relationship that will keep the Border open.”
So what kind of “future trading relationship” would render the provisions of the backstop redundant in the eyes of the Irish government, which would have a veto? Well:
” … not only will the backstop have kept the Border open … it may also lay the ground for the future trading relationship.”
“The Irish Government has played its part in shaping the withdrawal agreement, through the backstop, into a document that is despised by large swathes of Westminster.
Dublin is treading a fine line between overreach and triumph, and only the British Cabinet and House of Commons can decide which outcome it is to be for Leo Varadkar.”
November 14, 2018
http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/11/13/the-pound-bounces-around/#comment-972913
“For sure we would have to be stupid to think that the Irish government would ever willingly allow us to free ourselves from the rules of the EU Customs Union and the EU Single Market once we had agreed to remain bound by them on a âtemporaryâ basis, as Theresa May now wants us to do.”
November 14, 2018
Duncan, you have it all wrong, it the other way round, the right was allowed to infect the party in 1977 because of the country and party were in an impossible position, so for the first time, they allowed the right of the party to lead. when had done their job along came the night of the long knives in NOV 1990 and the real Tory party took back control and went on with labour party to seal the of the UK fate with the EU.
In the 50s the Tory party try everything it could to join Europe but were rejected by the French, you should read up on history,
November 14, 2018
Walking away from the EU is the only way democracy is going to be satisfied.
November 14, 2018
There’s too much alliteration in Mrs May. She’s full of it
November 14, 2018
J, Perhaps May has kept something up her proverbial sleeve and at close of play today we will all be pleasantly surprised?? I personally think not…
I am listening to PMQ’s Corbyn at this very moment and even he thinks it’s a complete and utter shite deal!
November 14, 2018
Mrs May is not being fully truthful with anyone about the agreement, it all depends on the UK making a trade agreement with EU before 2021 otherwise the backstop will come into force and then peoples fears of the deal will be realised.
November 14, 2018
Here is a good article by the Labour MP Kate Hoey, some of which is in the Sun today:
https://labourlist.org/2018/11/kate-hoey-i-wont-vote-for-a-brexit-deal-that-panders-to-the-irish-governments-hypocrisy/
“I Wonât Vote For A Brexit Deal That Panders To The Irish Governmentâs Hypocrisy”
She writes:
“The Irish government, in cahoots with the EU, has deliberately made the border an issue and unfortunately our Prime Minister and her officials have fallen for it completely … ”
Well, the first part is correct but the second is not because Theresa May and her officials know the Irish government and the EU are using the fictitious problem of the Irish border as a pretext to keep us under EU economic rule, and they welcome that.
Moreover as I have commented on many occasions, for example here a month ago:
http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/10/18/no-more-delays-just-get-on-with-it/#comment-967319
there is an alternative “solution” to the border “problem”, which the government was said to be studying back in May according to a report in the FT:
“Britain is exploring its system of âparallel marketabilityâ, a legal fix agreed by the EU in 1995 that allowed Liechtenstein to straddle two distinct economic spaces with conflicting standards on goods.
One senior Whitehall official described it as âa very interesting ideaâ, with relevance to the effort to avoid a hard Northern Ireland border. âIt is a good answer in theory,â said the official. âWe need to look at how it would work in practice.âââ
That was six months ago, SO WHY HAVE WE HEARD NOTHING SINCE THEN?
Which “parallel marketability” proposal I have put forward in a succession of letters not only published in Theresa May’s local newspaper, the Maidenhead Advertiser, but copied to her as my MP and duly acknowledged by her assistant:
http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/11/10/some-port-statistics-for-mr-raab/#comment-972370
That particular missive offered a draft of a letter for her to send to Leo Varadkar, basically a slightly compressed version of the one reproduced here:
http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/06/29/what-is-the-uks-worst-nationalised-industry/#comment-943683
âDear Leo
This is to let you know that we definitely do not intend to make any changes at all to the land border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic ⊠â
November 14, 2018
As I have said before, it just a bailout for the EU, 30 or 40 odd billion and when the backstop come into force, just bill through the post in 2021 for at least 15 billion a year with no say on the matter or the bill.
November 14, 2018
The EU and the elite of this country want to build an Empire on the backs of British taxpayers and its poor people.
November 14, 2018
It’s a terrible deal, it’s not even a deal is it, we just agree to hand over 10’s billions to become a colony. I’m in tears.
November 14, 2018
Ode to Joy does not seem the most obvious tune to dance to, but with her special skills in this respect Mrs May accomplishes it.
November 14, 2018
Good for you. Since news of the deal emerged weâve heard that Barnierâs deputy has confirmed that we must align our rules but the EU retains control. And Leo Varadkhar has apparently confirmed that the backstop has no mechanism for either party to unilaterally withdraw. So weâre in the CU in perpetuity.
How bad does a bad deal need to get before itâs trumped by âNo Dealâ?
November 14, 2018
Deal sail through the cabinet,
November 14, 2018
Tony Blair says is the deal better than remaining .. it isn’t
November 14, 2018
Itâs always easy to say what youâre against. Much more difficult to say what you are for. The EU made it clear that Canada plus plus was only available to Great Britain, so itâs the May deal, EEA or WTO including a hard border in Ireland. Unless you want to sell out Ulster and the DUP.
WTO isnât impossible, but it will take years to sort out the software and facilities needed – just visit Switzerland and look at the lorries queuing on their way into Switzerland (and thatâs after over 10 years of customs cooperation and Swiss efficiency). Read the evidence from Swiss and Norwegian customs to the House of Commons about what is needed. Without the preparation, UK borders will be meaningless or chaotic, or both.
May deal now, or WTO in 5 (maybe 10) years? Which is it to be?