The art of the deal

Life requires  a series of negotiations. If you are buying a good or service the negotiation with the provider may be over price, quality, specification or other matters. You may start as a buyer with an idea of the service you want and an idea of a low price. The provider may have to explain that the available service is different and dearer.

Sometimes you the  buyer recognise that what you thought was on offer is not. You could decide to  buy what is on offer, and accept it is dearer, but you are more likely to decide that as what you want is not available it’s better to save your money or buy something else.

Other times you reach agreement over the style and quantity of service, and have to strike a compromise over the price. The buyer has to weigh up how much the provider needs the  business, and the provider needs to guess how much you want the service. More often than not a bargain is struck, but one or  both sides may miscalculate and end up with  no deal. If one or other side is unable to walk away from  the deal, then they will usually get a bad deal. The other party will exploit their weakness to a greater or lesser extent.

Most people understand this. Many people have bought a house, bought a car, or negotiated with a builder or some other domestic service provider. They have also often walked away from a house or a car as they turned out not to be good deals.  They know you walk away unless you really want something, and that you have to be willing to walk away if you want to keep pressure on for good quality and good value. This makes people all the more frustrated when they see how the UK has not done this in negotiating with the EU. We have seen time and again how the opposition to Brexit in Parliament and in  the establishment have constantly been undermining efforts by the UK to pursue a firm line in the negotiations. Mrs May refused to walk away when the EU came up with a very damaging sequencing to the negotiation, giving them all they wanted in the first part, the Withdrawal treaty, and leaving everything  the UK might want open until after the first part was signed. She then refused to walk away when the draft Withdrawal Agreement took shape with a huge move to keep our money, keep us under the EU control for longer, and to invent an Irish backstop as a possible means to keep us indefinitely in the customs union and following single market laws. Now some of these same people have decided to cripple the UK’s attempt at a renegotiation by ruling out walking away, our best card to get the attention of EU  negotiators.

The big advantages we have are manifest. We pay them money, they don’t pay us money (net). They sell us far more imports than we sell them. Much more of their trade faces tariffs if we leave with no agreement than we face. We can trade quite successfully under WTO rules, with lower tariffs on fewer  products out than in. We can regain control of our money, our laws, our borders and our fish. If only the opposition would let the government negotiate against the possibility of No deal.   Armed with such formidable advantages we would have a decent chance of getting them to agree to free trade talks and no  new barriers on exit. As it is the EU sniffs weakness and continues to offer nothing in the hope that the opposition will do their work for them. As Mrs May used rightly to say, no deal is better than a bad deal. In this  case a lot better as what is on offer is a very bad deal.

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374 Comments

  1. David J
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 5:14 am | Permalink

    Through this whole debate since we decided to exit the EU, the mantra “No deal is better than a bad deal” is so clearly both true and sensible. Sadly the Remain government keeps ignoring this despite a clear mandate from it’s people. The GE will redress this

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:15 am | Permalink

      No one has any clear idea as to what the consequences of no deal are.

      And John’s analogy is catastrophically wrong.

      In all other situations, “walking away” means going back to the previous position. It means keeping your present house, car, utility provider or whatever it is that you wished to change.

      It does NOT mean sleeping in a subway, sending your car to the crusher anyway and walking everywhere, or living without heat or light.

      So in this case “walking away” would mean REMAIN.

      Since the other side understand this simple truth, Johnson’s declared tactic was always useless anyway, so the opposition parties have done no harm whatsoever.

      Reply silly extreme language. Walking away means being a normal country trading with the EU under wto rules as we trade with the rest of god world. Extreme scaremongering is what undermines the pro eu case all the time.

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:48 am | Permalink

        Thank you John, but your analogy would be more apt if it went along these lines, I think:

        You already have a good deal with a builder, who is half way through building your extension, but you suddenly threaten to throw him off the job unless he makes it a two-storey one and only charges you half the price.

        Reply The public know this so called deal is a bad deal. It is after all only an invitation to talks. In terms of the analogy you first sign an Agreement giving the builder everything he wants including £39bn and then go on to discuss terms for actually putting up a building.

        • Narrow Shoulders
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 10:48 am | Permalink

          On your building analogy Martin, I think it goes more along the lines of you agreed a specification with a builder 40 years ago and the process has been moving along slowly with you paying the builder but the builder not completing the structure.
          Now that we know more about environmental efficiencies and design you want to change the designs and add some insulation. The builder will not change as he is stuck in his ways so you try to find a new builder but your neighbours won’t let you as the original builder is their mate.

          • Hope
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

            There is no mandate whatsoever to extend before or now. We voted to leave and no remain MP can state why each person voted to leave. There is a mandate to leave without a deal because that is the law the MPs voted for. For the likes of Hammond and others to claim otherwise shows their fanatic idiocy. Absolute traitors that Mayhab selected to be in cabinet. Lots of comments why Johnson was slapped down when in cabinet for advocating govt policy to eave, Hammond not reprimanded once for advocating the opposite of govt policy. I think the facts are now clear, Mayhab never wanted to leave or implement the will of the people. She was the worst and most dishonest PM in history.

        • Martin in Cardiff
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 10:50 am | Permalink

          John, what is preventing the UK from getting the best possible deal is simply the fact of your group’s Red Lines.

          Otherwise we could have a Norway or Switzerland type arrangement – as Farage himself repeatedly advocated prior to the vote.

          No, that would still not be as good as full membership, but it would honour the vote and be the least damaging.

          Whatever, threatening to harm oneself is no way is a bargaining chip with a more powerful party in negotiations, and so the opposition parties are on the side of the country’s best interests. It is cynical of you to represent them as otherwise, I think.

          • NickC
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

            Martin, So now you’re Farage’s spokesman as well?!! Farage put forward the Norway or Swiss type arrangements as preferable to the existing membership, not preferable to leaving altogether. Even Dr North’s similar advocacy was a preliminary step for total leave.

            The best possible deal is independence. As history demonstrates. Why are you so frightened of it? You show your fear because of your constant fretting about “the consequences of no deal” when no one knows or can guarantee the future in or out of the EU anyway.

          • Bob
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 12:53 pm | Permalink

            What is hampering progress with Brexit is the Remainers like Theresa May, Phil Hammond and the Tory “rebels” who refuse to honour the pledge made in their election manifesto to implement the decision made in the 2016 referendum. Mrs May wasted three years pretending to negotiate with Brussels when all the time she was just colluding with them. It’s quite obvious that they’re working towards ref2, but not before they’ve gerrymandered the electorate sufficiently to achieve their desired outcome.

            Brexit has certainly revealed the true nature of politics in the UK. The illusion of democracy has been exposed for the sham that it is.

            “The Governemt will implement what you decide”

            Yeah, right.

          • Martin in Cardiff
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 4:06 pm | Permalink

            No, Nick, Farage was his own spokesman. You can check on YouTube etc. the numerous occasions on which he gave Norway as an example as to why the UK could easily prosper outside the European Union.

            And many other things too, where he has later contradicted himself.

          • NickC
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

            No, Martin, the Norway option was preferable to being in the EU. Being independent – out of the EU – is preferable to Norway. You have not been in UKIP. I have. You do not know the context. You do not know the history of Farage and North either.

        • tim
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:14 am | Permalink

          here here! Dont do any deal Martin!

        • Brenda
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:48 am | Permalink

          Yes John, so better not to put up a new expensive building, the old one is fine. REMAIN!

          • NickC
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 4:21 pm | Permalink

            Brenda, The old building is rickety, falling down in places, inconvenient, draughty and prevents us building better trading links.

            And, whether you like it or not, we voted to Leave your nasty old building.

        • robert lewy
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:56 pm | Permalink

          Martin,

          Forgive me for involving myself further in this matter but your builder analogy reminded me of a trade in which I was involved about 30 years ago.

          I had a contract to supply F W Woolworth with a large volume of product valued at about £200k. When I negotiated the deal it was tendered at an extremely low price because I needed the work to keep my factory working during an off-season period. However, I made it clear to the buyer that this was a one-off deal and it could not be repeated.

          The stock supplied was sold in less than three weeks and the buyer was on the phone to me to place a further order. I said that I was delighted but could not supply the goods at the same low price.

          The buyer’s response wasn’t to ask how much the price would increase. He simply told me that he was closing the account.

          Ruthless you might say, but he clearly believed that I was in a weak position and needed the deal at a further very low price. I walked away and about two years later the account re-opened.

      • Woody
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:49 am | Permalink

        One significant matter you disregard so casually in your argument is that we voted to leave in the largest democratic procedure in UK history .. so to remain is to reject a decision of the people made after considerable scrutiny of the options, thanks of course to the pro remain propaganda thrust upon us at significant cost and of course the many project fear assurances … none of which have come true. There is no such thing as “no deal” anyway .. as WTO deal is a given and very beneficial to the UK for the reasons so lucidly outlined by Mr Redwood.

        • NickC
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

          Woody, You are completely right. However we now have a de facto coalition Remain government, taking legal advice directly from our enemies. So what can we do?

          1. The Tory party is a busted flush, unfortunately. I don’t particularly like either Nigel Farage or the Brexit Party, but they are now our only hope to implement what – in our innocence – we voted for.

          2. I have avoided buying EU stuff for over a year now. I think the time has come for an active boycott. I would single out Germany, France and Holland as being the most culpable. What do others think?

          • Original Richard
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:19 pm | Permalink

            Point (2) : Agreed.

            In fact I have not bought any French agricultural products since 1990 when French farmers set fire to one truckload of live British sheep, killing 219 of them as well as poisoning, slitting throats and dousing others with insecticide.

            I intend to extend this policy and I would certainly include Southern Ireland.

        • rose
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 12:59 pm | Permalink

          Furthermore, no-one can say what would happen to us if we stay in. It would be a leap in the dark.

          • Martin in Cardiff
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

            No, if you run blindfolded across the M25, then no one could say that you would be certain to be killed, and if you go for a walk in the park, then no one can be absolutely sure that you will survive.

            However, it seems that only Leave voters like Rose would be silly enough to be persuaded to do the first on that basis.

          • NickC
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

            Martin, Not that hoary old Remain fear-myth again!! No one advocates running across the M25 blindfolded. But no one can see the future – in or out of the EU. What we do know is the majority of countries in the world are not in the EU and not running across the M25.

          • Edward2
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

            Your analogies get more bizarre by the hour.

          • libertarian
            Posted September 8, 2019 at 8:30 am | Permalink

            Hey Marty

            Lets do analogies

            Youve been in a prison for 40 years , suddenly the government change and decide to release all political prisoners . Its a bit scary because you haven’t really had to look after yourself for a long time, however there are relatives out in the world who say come on we”ll help and support you. Do you give in to Stockholm Syndrome or walk to freedom?

      • Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:55 am | Permalink

        Sir John – it seems as if the remains might be a useful barometer. It is quite clear when they feel they are losing an argument because their language, as you say, becomes extreme, sometimes abusive, always discourteous.

        MinC is a good example of this, as is Andy, his mum Ms Howard, Newmania, Brenda, etc.

      • Shirley
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:14 am | Permalink

        Nobody has any clear idea of what the consequences of remaining are, but we have a very good idea, ie. loss of more sovereignty, transfer of more UK money to the EU, bail outs (sorry, non-repayable ‘loans’) to their failing economies, eventual tax harmonisation, the euro, schengen, etc. and all without ANY reference whatever to the electorates of the EU nations who are not allowed to vote on these issues.

      • A.Sedgwick
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:25 am | Permalink

        You are as perverse as the pathetic opposition, look for an alternative house, car, utility provider (not under McDonnell) or whatever.

      • Reddo
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:28 am | Permalink

        Oops John. We dont trade with ANY country on WTO rules

        Reply Yes we trade with ALL countries on WTO rules!

        • NickC
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

          JR, Reddo is yet another Remain who cannot distinguish between WTO rules and a nation’s or bloc’s own rules. I wonder if their ordinary lives are as beset with such errors, or is it just Brexit Derangement Syndrome?

        • dixie
          Posted September 8, 2019 at 7:30 am | Permalink

          Even the EU trades under WTO rules, uses and submits itself to the WTO dispute resolution procedures.

      • libertarian
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:50 am | Permalink

        Martin in Cardiff

        1) NO ONE HAS ANY IDEA ABOUT ANY FUTURE !!! The only way to predict the future is to create it.

        2) Walking away doesn’t mean anything of the sort , it means normally finding a better alternative ( there are quite a few)

        3) Your sleeping in a subway stuff is just childish nonsense spouted by the totally ignorant ( by the same people, you, that claim at the same time that the EU has no real influence on our lives) My goodness remainers are dumb

        4) The remain alliance have been colluding with the EU to keep us in. There has been no negotiation. The A50 parliament voted on calls for a two year period before we leave in order to sort out logistics , that has happened and the major logistics are now in place. Any future trade agreement can be dealt with once we’ve left

        So far this is what your fabulous EU promises

        1) To inflict conflict on the island of Ireland

        2) To allow British citizens to die prematurely ( according to BMA) due to the EU withholding paperwork clearance of EU drug companies exporting to the UK

        3) To severely damage European exporters by allowing large tariffs on the Europeans most valuable goods

        4) Further austerity for the remaining EU 27 , Christine Legarde ( Head of ECB) having admitted they broke the EU’s own rules to prop up the Eurozone .

        You might want to get out more and rather than sleeping in subways 3 or 4 of the worlds most affluent, healthy and successful countries are European countries that ARE NOT in the EU . Only half of European countries are in the EU, 168 countries are NOT in the EU and they all seem to manage to trade ok.

        ps wanna buy the Eiffel Tower ?

      • Christine
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:25 am | Permalink

        What a load of nonsense you write Martin. If I don’t like a quote I’m given, I walk away and go somewhere else. If you are seeking a divorce from an abusive partner, the last thing you do is stay with them. Maybe there will be a few bumps in the road after we leave but what is the price of freedom? I’m putting more on the line than most people in this country but I do it because it’s the right thing to do.

        • tim
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:16 am | Permalink

          Well said Christine!

      • Paulus
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:39 am | Permalink

        “under wto rules as we trade with the rest of [the] world. ”

        But there are almost no countries in the world that we trade with on WTO rules alone. So it really isn’t true that we get by perfectly well trading only on WTO terms.

        • Shirley
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 10:45 am | Permalink

          Which has been trust upon by the EU rules which dictate that we cannot agree FTA’s before we leave the EU.

          It would be a temporary situation only, and in any case, WTO does give us the freedom to set our own tariffs, and we won’t have to hand the proceeds over to the EU.

        • NickC
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

          Pau;lus, False. Nearly all global trade (98%) takes place within the WTO framework of rules. The other rules you are referring to are the nation’s, or bloc’s, own trading rules. That’s how the WTO works.

          When we leave we will use the WTO rules (as we do now, even for trade within the EU) together with our own (UK) rules, and the rules of our trading partners. But all nation’s and bloc’s rules must conform to WTO rules anyway, if they are members.

      • cornishstu
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:46 am | Permalink

        MiC trying out a bit of newspeak ? Seems to be a lot of that about lately with the remainers. Here are a couple of consequences of leaving on WTO terms, we regain sovereignty of the UK, and we save a few billions to spend how we see fit. We would have to trade with the EU on the same terms as we do the rest of the world.

        • tim
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:25 am | Permalink

          It costs us £18,200,000,000 a year to be in the EU {my God this can not be true} please tell me I am wrong!
          This does not include all the tax we collect on everything we buy and recieve to send to the Brussel sprouts!
          The cost of WTO with EU would be about 5,000,000,000 estimated.
          Cold sweat!

      • hefner
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:52 am | Permalink

        MiC, agreed, Sir John’s analogy is poor.

      • Timaction
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:59 am | Permalink

        “Crashing out, catastrophic, cliff face, car crash” you people are beyond stupid. We all know that trade will continue, why wouldn’t it? End of stupid language silly boy!

      • MikeP
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:01 am | Permalink

        “No one has any clear idea as to what the consequences of no deal are”
        Wrong, there have been some very good pieces on Twitter explaining that even the most outlandish forecasts of reduced growth (note we still grow in all of them) are over timescales where it would make little difference to our lives year on year. The forecasts are also all downside-biased, they fail to take account of upsides in reaching new trade agreements, expanded markets elsewhere and setting an expansionist tax regime for the country.

        • Martin in Cardiff
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:57 am | Permalink

          Oh, fine, well, you explain to a pan-European, UK-based haulage company, say, just how easy it will be for them to find markets for their services “elsewhere”, when they do not even know the terms on which their trucks would be allowed on European Union roads – if at all – and at what cost?

          I’m writing about the people who will be faced with the material realities, not about this-or-that right-wing “think” tank’s silly posturing.

          • libertarian
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

            MiC

            No problem, just rang my mate Geoff H who runs a UK based haulage company delivering and collecting goods across Europe

            Says they are ready with their ECMT transit permits , he says he would prefer a deal to continue the current bi lateral arrangements but if not they can cope. Assures me he will continue to deliver stuff.

            The bigger issue by far for the road haulage industry is the decrease in goods being transported to Europe from UK In 1999 15.9 million tons per year by 2015 this had fallen to 8.2 million. This was then made worse by operation stack in 2015 when the Dover/ Calais gateway was closed for 35 days due to French industrial action, illegals in the tunnel, then more French strikes .

            Historically, UK registered vehicles have consistently brought more goods to the UK than from the UK. In 2015, of the 8.2 million tonnes of goods lifted, 4.3 million tonnes were imported, and 3.9 million tonnes were exported. It is more efficient for European exporters to use British trucks as they aren’t paying for empty return trucks. By the way 30% of trucks crossing Dover/Calais are empty

            Glad to help

            What is it you do again Martin?

          • Edward2
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 4:20 pm | Permalink

            Tell us the name of this pan European UK based haulage company and the difficulties you say they will have Martin
            I reckon you are making this story up.
            Because I deal with such companies who tell me they see little or no difficulties in the future.
            Are you claiming UK vehicles will be not allowed on EU roads after 31st October and presumably all EU vehicles will not be able to travel on UK roads?
            Oh and tell us the legal reasons for this and quote who in the UK and EU who has said this us the case.
            Material realities you tell us.
            Well prove it.

          • Martin in Cardiff
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:16 pm | Permalink

            ECMT permits will work up to 31st Dec 2019 if there’s a no deal exit.

            After that, all that the Government site says is “check for updates”.

            That is, they do not know.

            Do you?

          • libertarian
            Posted September 8, 2019 at 8:37 am | Permalink

            Marty

            WRONG

            You DO NOT need an ECMT permit up until 31/12/19 AFTER that with no deal you need an ECMT permit

            “You can complete most international journeys until 31 December 2019 without ECMT permits. This includes if there’s a no-deal Brexit.”

            “You can use ECMT permits in 43 countries, and for driving through EU and EEA countries.

            Read the actual website

            https://www.gov.uk/guidance/ecmt-international-road-haulage-permits

          • Edward2
            Posted September 8, 2019 at 9:43 am | Permalink

            Carefully avoiding the question Martin.
            Are you claiming all the millions of lorries travelling to and from Europe, both UK and EU will not be allowed on UK and European roads,respectively, after 31st of October?
            Or that the EU and UK will refuse to allow continuation of ECMT permits after they next are due for renewal?

            A ridiculous new Project Fear claim from an extreme remain fan.

      • Fred H
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:16 am | Permalink

        Martin…..I do try to ignore your pathetic ranting, and bizarre comments several steps from reality. The PM is expecting to take a course of action that results in the people getting their will carried out. The antidemocratic schemers, both intelligent and thick have managed with SQUEEKER and the so-called rule of law to navigate ways round the Government of this country. The only democratic way forward is hold a GE in the hope the result will enable a working majority. But of course you want an outcome to suit you, ignoring the will of the people.

      • DaveK
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:18 am | Permalink

        The first line is one of the few sensible comments you have made. Why has the government never rebutted the fear campaign? Why has there not been any TV coverage that discusses factually the potential pitfalls? Why can every political and even non political show on our public service broadcaster shout cliff edge and catastrophe? How will they walk back from calling our PM a liar and fascist? Donning my tin foil hat leads me to believe that the two thirds Remainers in our Parliament want this to happen. It did seem that when the PM was visiting some of the EU leaders that the body language was changing and some movement may be possible, this was however quashed by the latest plan conducted with their allies in our own government. History should not be kind to these people.

      • Hope
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:21 am | Permalink

        JR, two articles in con woman today which are a must read. The first shows how Marxism takes over during political chaos, the second by a Lieutenant General relates to Mayhab’s disgraceful servitude plan where she has literally given away our defence, security and intelligence to the EU for the commission to control and to use for its own global purposes while lying to us that it is a good deal and taking back control, which it does not definitely do.

        Moreover it will cost jobs, effect economy, losing vital skills in key areas such as steel making and ship building.

        When reading the second article you cannot but get angry how this dishonest woman has abused her power and has deliberately tried to sell our country down the river. Then she has the bare faced cheek to stand outside Downing Street claiming she loves her country! I can only think her charademwas to cover her tracks. Sh needs to be investigated along with her Sherpa Robbins.

        • Jack Leaver
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 10:47 am | Permalink

          Hope, there are many articles such as those you cite that are must reading especially those that have analysed the WA and PD but it seems that remainer MPs and those that oppose a no-deal are either ignorant of then or choose their course of action despite them. One recent article by Robert Craig (https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/09/02/proponents-of-the-new-bill-to-stop-no-deal-face-a-significant-dilemma-over-queens-consent/) should be brought to the attention of Boris Johnson if he is not aware of its relevance to the present bill. He concludes:

          The proponents of a new Bill to prevent No Deal are caught on the horns of a dilemma. If they had drafted a Bill that only mandated the PM to seek an extension, the PM would be left free to refuse to agree or accept any extension in negotiations with the EU27.

          But the actual Bill tries to impose a requirement that the PM either agrees to 31 January 2020 or agrees any new exit date suggested by the EU27 (as long as a motion approving the alternative date in the House of Commons is passed). House of Commons procedural rules mean that the government is required formally to approve the Bill by affirming ‘Queen’s Consent’ to the Bill at the Third Reading stage. This is because the power to agree or accept an extension is normally exercised using a prerogative power. If passed, this statute would have the legal effect, by whatever means, of forcing the PM to agree an extension to the Article 50 process would manifestly ‘affect’ the prerogative for the purposes of the relevant test as to whether Queen’s Consent is required.

        • Richard
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:01 pm | Permalink

          Jack, I entirely agree. http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2019/09/05/a-useless-parliament/#comment-1052199 (& scroll down) But no sign of
          Boris advising HMQ to withhold Royal Assent.

          Sir John, This article is worrying: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/09/06/establishment-brexit-fix-trick-british-people-reheated-may-deal/

      • DLP
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:59 am | Permalink

        Your interpretation of “walking away” is misguided and exactly what the remain side want. They have so far successfully removed any bargaining power we have by refusing to accept that we could walk away with no deal. You seem to conveniently ignore the fact that a majority voted to leave, not remain. Therefore “walking away” means we leave with no deal thereby carrying out the result of the majority vote.

      • julie williams
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 10:25 am | Permalink

        I suppose that you are 100% certain about what staying in the EU will lead to in the future?

      • robert lewy
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:42 pm | Permalink

        Martin,

        You clearly have difficulty in grasping the concept of “walking away”.

        In any encounter which involves a trade both parties size up the other party they are attempting to trade with.

        If you like a house you see and think the price is about right but then find out by a lapse in attention by the estate agent that no-one has been to view the house in last 12 months this will tend to make alter the price that you are prepared to offer. If you then make a low offer and wait for the seller to re-evaluate the situation, he is more likely to at least compromise towards your offer.

        As I said above, each party assesses the relative bargaining position of the other party. So, you can now well understand that when perishable food is getting close to its sell by date, the seller is prepared to drop the price to an extent which significantly exceeds the normal profit margin. Why is this?
        It is simply because the buyer can see clearly that the seller is anxious to make the sale.

        What our host did not also note is that by actually walking away when you want to make the deal you find out whether the other party wants to trade.
        If your judgement is right the other party will walk right up to you.

        And so it is with EU the only difference being that the EU appear to have political as well as economic reasons for playing hardball. The difference in this case suggests that the EU may be trying to extract a price from us which far exceeds the economic value of the deal. It follows that we can walk away and thus establish the extent to which the EU will negotiate after we have left. That is the time when we can decide if the deal stacks up.

    • eeyore
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:47 am | Permalink

      Parliament has declared that there can be no election until No Deal is off the table. In plain English that means the government is perfectly safe while No Deal is on the table. Its lack of majority has become irrelevant, thanks to Parliament.

      Parliament has ordered the PM to do something which he refuses to do. MPs now propose trotting off to court to beg judges to vindicate their authority. What a great look for a sovereign Parliament!

      The judges, if they are as stupid as MPs (which they are not) may order the PM to comply. He may refuse again. He may be found in contempt of court and sent to prison, where he will remain Her Majesty’s chief Minister – and the People’s Brexit Martyr – in his cell in Pentonville.

      What a fitting shambles to end the last three years! This Parliament is not only useless, arrogant, undemocratic and dishonest but very, very thick. Such people are unworthy to run our affairs. Their rage when they find just how stupid they are will be awesome – but not half as awesome as the revenge of the electorate at the next election.

      • NickC
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 12:53 pm | Permalink

        Eeyore, That’s a good point. An alternative way of looking at it is that if “no deal” is off the table then an election could proceed. That would depend on Corbyn of course. Then the election result would be either Remain or Leave in the majority. If Leave is elected then the “no deal” legislation can be repealed.

      • Mark B
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

        This is in line with my thinking. Alexander Johnson MP seen in the same light as a later day, Mahatma Gandhi. Someone prepared to go to prison to get his countries freedom.

      • tim
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 3:24 pm | Permalink

        WE need to beg our friend Donald trump. That if Boris, an American citizen is imprisoned, for trying to carry out the will of the people of the UK. Then the USA will invade UK sieze control of parliament and administer the traitors punishment to the EU conspiritors.
        17,400,000 will welcome the liberation army with open arms!

    • Peter
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:28 am | Permalink

      Nobody has explained why Boris Johnson called off the filibuster on anti No Deal legislation in the Lords.

      Before that happened he seemed to have a plan. Remain were on the back foot and Johnson seemed be getting to grips with the problems.

      Then suddenly the filibuster idea was abandoned and Remain were calling the shots.

      Maybe Johnson never wanted No Deal but hopes he can lay the blame at Labour’s door?

      Unless he has some other cunning plan both himself and the Conservative party are finished. Votes will now go to the Brexit Party.

      • NickC
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 12:55 pm | Permalink

        Peter, Indeed yes. I think the Conservative party needs to sort itself out rapidly otherwise it will become a rump like the Libdems.

      • rose
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

        As I understand it, the whips agreed to let the bill pass in exchange for an election on October 15. Naturally, the politicians who tell us every day the PM can’t be trusted, reneged.

      • libertarian
        Posted September 8, 2019 at 8:40 am | Permalink

        Peter

        Ive no idea why and have no inside knowledge , but I suspect they actually have a different plan for dealing with this. I can think of 4 or 5 ways at least of getting around this situation legitimately

  2. Richard1
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 5:20 am | Permalink

    It is most likely too Late. 3 years of Mrs May’s negotiating from a kneeling position has got us to a position where the EU are adamant we must stick with an agreement made by Mrs May which is manifestly inferior to remaining in the EU, whether you were a leave or Remain voter.

    The very last chance of a sensible deal is a big win by Boris at the election – which may be in Nov or Dec, with brexit put back until Jan or later (as the EU decides). If, as seems more likely at the moment (especially if brexit and the election are delayed), we end up again with a hung parliament then I think we need another referendum to resolve this. We cannot have this limbo with the County tearing itself to pieces for another 5 years (which is what the WA would mean).

    • Richard1
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 5:30 am | Permalink

      Country

      • rose
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 1:08 pm | Permalink

        The anti independence movement will never accept a win for leaving. It isn’t just the Iliberal Antidemocrats.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:37 am | Permalink

      Every single version of not being in the European Union is worse by a long way than being in it.

      There is no possible deal with it that is remotely as good as the one that we already have, and no deal at all would be catastrophic until new agreements were in place.

      • Woody
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:50 am | Permalink

        WTO is in place.

      • A.Sedgwick
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:27 am | Permalink

        Give three reasons why we will be better in the EU.

        • Jiminyjim
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 12:45 pm | Permalink

          They never give positive reasons for remaining, AS. I’ve challenged most of them many times over a long period. The only thing that comes back is that the EU has kept the peace for 70 years, ignoring NATO and the fact that the earliest incarnation of what is now the EU didn’t exist. It’s a total give-away of how hopeless and factless their arguments are. They are quite staggeringly ill-informed. The voters will have their revenge in due course, we just have to be even more patient and determined than we have been since June 2016

          • DLP
            Posted September 9, 2019 at 6:36 am | Permalink

            Jiminyjim. You are so right. They have the mindset of someone who has had their gas and leccy from say British gas for donkeys years but won’t change to another supplier for half the cost because “I’ve always been with British gas so they must be the best”. That’s about sums up the remain argument for wanting to stay in the eu.

        • tim
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

          give ONE reason

      • mickc
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:27 am | Permalink

        That may, or may not, be true. However the Referendum result was to leave. All parties agreed to respect that…and should do so.

      • Stephen Priest
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:46 am | Permalink

        “There is no possible deal with it that is remotely as good as the one that we already have”

        Please explain why Germany is entering its third recession since 2002. Please explain why Italy keeps going in and out of recession. Under 25s in Italy suffer from over 35% unemployment. These are founder members.

        Where is the great deal staying in the EU when it doesn’t even work for Germany and Italy?

        Why is having most of our laws made by unelected bureaucrats and judges a good deal?

      • libertarian
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:02 am | Permalink

        Marty

        If you had ever run a business , especially one that traded internationally you would know you are talking total drivel

        1) The Customs Union INFLATES prices, outside prices come down

        2) There is nothing very useful about the single market in goods ( technology removed the barriers)

        3) A lot of people feel that controlling immigration from the EU is needed

        4) We need more FTA’s with countries that the EU does not have agreements with

        On Thursday 29th August , I googled a supplier of equipment that I needed for a project. I found a company in China, I went to their website and found contact details. We exchange emails , negotiated a price and signed a contract .

        On Wednesday 4th September I received a text message

        Your consignment from ***** in China has now cleared customs and is in our delivery network for delivery Thursday 5th September between 08:00 -13:00. Here is your tracking info *****

        Frictionless global trade using advanced digital technology

        The EU is for people still living in the 1950’s oh and Marxists who would like to live in 1917

        • Edward2
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

          Well said Libertarian.
          My reality too.

        • acorn
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 4:44 pm | Permalink

          Libby, I would be interested to know which currency you were invoiced in from your Chinese supplier. I have contacts that are being asked if they will accept being invoiced in Euro and/or US Dollars for £30,000 plus equivalent purchases that stretch into 2020. They don’t want to be stuck with Sterling in present circumstances.

          • libertarian
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

            acorn

            Sterling , but the purchase was below £20k and a one off delivery

          • Original Richard
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:40 pm | Permalink

            I have been dealing with China for a decade. They have always invoiced in US $.

          • dixie
            Posted September 8, 2019 at 7:41 am | Permalink

            GBP has been fine, occasionally USD.

          • Edward2
            Posted September 8, 2019 at 9:46 am | Permalink

            China invoices in dollars in my experience over decades.
            It works well for both sides although other currencies can be used if both sides wish.

      • Christine
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:36 am | Permalink

        The Withdrawal Treaty is not a trade deal. It just puts the EU in a stronger position to give us a bad deal. Our money was our strongest card and Mrs May threw it away. Just replay all the clips from the EU laughing at how they have made us a vassal state. These MPs tying Boris Johnson’s hands in the negotiations is unforgivable. Also anyone from the media reading this ought to be ashamed of themselves for their bias reporting.

      • Sir Joe Soap
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:37 am | Permalink

        Tell me why Switzerland won’t join, if being a member is so good.

        • Brenda
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:52 am | Permalink

          Its deal is pure vassal! You want that?

      • Timaction
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:05 am | Permalink

        Explain the benefits please? No one has as yet. Lots of expense, regulation and control to unelected bureaucrats whilst they give out grants (our taxes) to move our industries to elsewhere. Cadbury’s, Jaguar Landrover, Ford to name three in a long list. State aid rulers to cripple our industries like steel or huge energy costs in the climate change religion. Mugged our fishing industry. Do they do this to Germany, France? Friends, my ass!

      • IanT
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:18 am | Permalink

        That’s your view Martin – but it’s not shared by everyone and when we (finally) have a GE – perhaps that will become more apparent…

      • Pete S
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:20 am | Permalink

        You like being controlled by a bunch of crooks in Brussels. Shame on you.

      • JPM
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:42 am | Permalink

        And yet, on balance, your countrymen rejected the EU, and with it this argument. “Better” or “worse” are subjective, reflecting your preferences, not those of the majority.

      • David Maples
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:53 am | Permalink

        Prove it Martin; chapter and verse please.
        ps none of your usual, ‘invented in my own head’ value judgment and sophistry.

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 10:57 am | Permalink

        Marginally worse, or possibly marginally better.

        http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2019/03/07/euro-area-growth-falls-away/#comment-1001064

        “Germany’s prestigious IFO Institut has crunched the numbers on the economic impact of no deal … ”

        And they do not agree with the doomladen forecasts from that snake Philip Hammond, who like his predecessor has greatly over-estimated the impact of the EU Single Market and the impact of defaulting to WTO terms.

      • Andy
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:07 am | Permalink

        ‘Worse’ in what regard ??
        You know the Price of everything and the Value of Nothing.

        Many of us voted to Leave because we wanted our Country back. WE want to decide who resides here. WE want to decide what Laws are enacted. And WE want to elect who Governs us. If you love the EU so much then while you have the chance up sticks and go and live there. Oh and renounce your UK Citizenship as you leave theres a good fellow.

      • NickC
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

        Martin, We don’t have a deal with the EU, we are in it.

        Every single version of not being in the EU is better by a long way than being in it. Being independent of the EU is best of the lot.

    • Simeon
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:44 am | Permalink

      I disagree with your analysis, though your conclusion is probably correct. BJ getting a thumping majority would mean the WA cosmetically modified. The best hope of a proper Brexit is now a referendum (the Brexit party are not yet in a position to win a GE).

      Were BJ and the Conservatives trustworthy, and had BJ understood the obvious truth that this Parliament will not accept no deal – a truth that was obvious more than six months ago, at least – then he could have argued for a GE in the leadership contest and called one with Labour’s support, running on a managed no deal ticket. He would have won such a GE in those circumstances.

      But he and the Conservatives can’t be trusted, and he didn’t understand Parliament’s position, and now Brexit is to be delayed once more, he will have to resign as PM to preserve any remaining perceived credibility, and a new PM will implement the forthcoming legislation and dictate the terms of the ‘democratic event’ that an extension to EU membership demands.

      It is to be fervently hoped that this democratic event will be a referendum, as a GE would either resolve nothing or produce a progressive coalition, because the leave vote would be split between the principled Brexit party and the unprincipled, incompetent Conservative party. A referendum produces a decisive, unmistakable result (assuming the question asked is sensible; if it disallowed ‘no deal Brexit’, MPs would reap the whirlwind). Don’t get me wrong, even in the event that the people repeat their original vote, the Brexit crisis will persist, but it would at least progress to the next stage of actually leaving the EU.

    • tim
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:31 am | Permalink

      you mean another referendum until we choose remain?

    • acorn
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

      We came into this mess as a result of a badly designed and explained referendum question. It lacked all the requirements to have been eligible for a Swiss routine referendum, under its Direct Democracy protocol.

      My way out of this mess is to go back out the same door we came in; another referendum.

      For those that have understood Game Theory 101, it would have to be done in two stages. The first stage would be a vote for “No-deal” versus the “May deal”. The second stage a week later say, would be “Remain” versus the result of the first vote.

      • libertarian
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

        acorn

        Please explain why No Deal versus May deal are the only two options?

        What about some other kind of deal. Surely we need a referendum thats says

        1) Leave WTO
        2)Leave May
        3) Leave Norway
        4) Leave Canada
        5) Leave EFTA/EEA
        6) Leave FTA
        7) Leave May no backstop
        8) leave some other deal

        Theres no need to have remain on the ballot as we’ve already decided to leave

        However if it was on the ballot

        1) Remain as is

        2) Remain in a reformed EU

        3) Remain and join the Eurozone

        4) Remain and become part of a fully federal EU

        5) Remain but only in EFTA/EEA

        6) Remain in an enlarged EU

        7) Remain but only in 28 country EU

        I’m sure people can add their own that I haven’t thought of. Dont ask Jerry though he gets touchy if you ask him about this

        Those that understand game theory also understand how not to get gamed by loaded questions

        • acorn
          Posted September 8, 2019 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

          Libby, that would be a ballot paper as long as a toilet roll. There are only two leave options available before 31/10/19. None of your others could even be explained in time to bamboozle the average voter. Keep it binary at each stage to keep it simple.

      • Original Richard
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:37 pm | Permalink

        Acorn :
        “No”, we’ve had the first referendum which was between “leave” and “remain”.

        “Leave” won and “remain” lost, so “remain” has been eliminated.

        So if there is to be another referendum it would be between various leave options, although I cannot see how the current WA can be included as it is not leaving – as the AG has already told us, if we sign up to the WA there is no lawful exit to a treaty where we will be accepting EU laws, budgets, taxes, fines and policies (trade, energy, environment, foreign, immigration etc) but without representation or veto.

      • NickC
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

        Acorn, We already had the Leave vs Remain referendum. You may have missed it. We won.

        You know as well as I do that Leave means abrogating the EU treaties, departing from the EU, and not returning, thereby becoming as independent as New Zealand. Not too difficult for even a Remain to understand – as Remains clearly did understand before the vote.

      • Robert mcdonald
        Posted September 8, 2019 at 9:32 am | Permalink

        With of course a third stage if the first two stages didn’t give a result the europhiles want .. and so on.

      • Edward2
        Posted September 8, 2019 at 9:50 am | Permalink

        Would remainers in Parliament then accept the results of your next two referenda if the result did not go the way they wanted?

  3. Shirley
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 5:23 am | Permalink

    The Remainers can only delay Brexit. They have to allow a GE at some time, and when they do they will be voted out. If they force the WA upon us, a new party can be elected upon a pledge to revoke that treaty. What better reason than revoking a treaty that was imposed against the will of the nation. Meanwhile, the EU will continue to alienate people across the world. Euroscepticism is growing throughout the EU.

    UK politicians must let us leave, or they create a nation who hates a tyrannical Parliament who will boot them out at the first opportunity. How far will they go, in order to impose their will upon the electorate?

    • Richard1
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 5:59 am | Permalink

      Dream on. If the WA is passed there will then be 2-4 years of fruitless negotiations where we are quickly told to join the CU and the SM (& pay the money etc) or again face the cliff edge. But with the difference that there is no walk away because of the backstop. After a few years of this (with all the damage another few years of limbo will do), voters will conclude that we are better off being back in the EU. By that point however, that will mean joining the euro. Which is why remain is preferable to the WA.

      • Woody
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:54 am | Permalink

        Can’t follow your logic. You appear to accept that it undoubtedly would be a bad thing to join the very essence of the Eu .. the common currency … the failing euro. Why not bother and just leave. After a few years the remnants of the eu will probably be begging to join us … after the euro has collapsed and their economies are further in recession.

      • Simeon
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:32 am | Permalink

        You are right that remain is preferable to the WA. However, Shirley is surely right when she suggests that their would be a revolt if the WA was imposed now (less so if BJ does it, which is his only chance of hanging on to power, but still a significant revolt). This would mean the distinct possibility of the Brexit party winning a GE with a mandate to break the WA treaty.

        It is a sign of just how catastrophic our politicians failure would be if they imposed the WA that I think the international community would support Britain in this. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if the EU tore up the WA themselves if the Brexit party were elected, because it would be so obvious that British politicians accepting the WA was simply undemocratic.

      • Timaction
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:08 am | Permalink

        No they won’t. Look at the recent elections when Tory’s didn’t deliver (9%) Legacies are finished. We need a new voting system and parties. The current lot have proven their total incompetence and stupidity. Part time, unqualified, over paid, foolish people with a minority like our host and the ERG.

      • Pete S
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:22 am | Permalink

        If after being screwed by the EU for more years, it will finally dawn on the vast majority of the public. What a crock of manure the EU is.

      • JPM
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:45 am | Permalink

        I fear that it is you who should “dream on”.

        The WA will never be passed, the choice is between remain and leave, and good luck to anyone, or any party, who tells the electorate that they got it wrong.

    • Peter van LEEUWEN
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:05 am | Permalink

      @Shirley:
      “Euroscepticism is growing throughout the EU”
      Actually, the opposite has been happening, all well resourced and available on internet.

      • Shirley
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:15 am | Permalink

        They can’t hide the truth forever.

      • Ian Wragg
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:24 am | Permalink

        Not what we hear on the ground visiting Europe. Even Macron believes the French would vote to leave.
        Most of the surveys you site are EU funded propaganda.

        • hefner
          Posted September 8, 2019 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

          French European Elections 2019:
          Rassemblement National (Euroskeptics but not leavers): 23.31%
          LREM (Macron’s party): 22.41%
          Greens 13.47%
          Les Republicains (Centre-right) 8.48%
          La France Insoumise (Euroskeptics a bitty hard left): 6.31%
          Socialist no.1: 6.19%
          DuPont-Aignan (leaver): 3.51%
          then 3 more small (incl. Soc.no.2): 3.27+2.50+2.49 %
          UPR Asselineau (leaver) 1.17%
          Les Patriotes (!) 0.65% (might be leaver, who knows)
          Gilets Jaunes 1+2: 0.54+0.01% (idem)
          Alliance Royale (leaver): 0.01%
          And IW that was the actual vote, not a survey.

          What about retuning your antennas next time you visit Europe?

      • libertarian
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:04 am | Permalink

        PvL

        You are of course right, the French have been rioting every weekend for 39 weeks in celebration of the glorious EU

        You sound like Chairman Mao

        • Peter van LEEUWEN
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:36 am | Permalink

          @libertarian: you’re misinformed. You are of course welcome to read up in wikipedia on the “gillet Jaunes” (Yellow vests movement for an English version) and you’ll see that the EU isn’t even mentioned in there.
          Using insults isn’t really isn’t really helping your standing.

          • libertarian
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 3:41 pm | Permalink

            PvL

            I own a business in France , I talk to my French workers, colleagues customers and friends

            If you want insults you should hear what they say and think about the EU… Frexit posters everywhere… Have you ever been to France?

            Keep Drinking the Kool Aid Pete

          • hefner
            Posted September 8, 2019 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

            libertarian, not everywhere, even in the north of France in a rather deprived area, there are only a few posters for Frexit from Action Francaise (the French Royalists), Debout la France (Nicolas DuPont-Aignan’s party), Francois Asselineau’s Union Populaire Republicaine.
            Similarly in the Normandy (Avranches) region or in the Montpellier area, this last one, very Gilet Jaune at the end of 2018, much much less now. A GJ tent which was permanently manned last year only have one person present and only on market days in a place I have often go to. So forget the continuous GJ stream.

            As you seem to know sooooooo much about France, I’ll let you tell us the total percentage that these three parties got at the last French Presidential and European elections.

            Maybe your workers are fed up having a non-dom (wrt France) boss?
            More Cucul Aid than Kool-Aid, aren’t you?

      • Edward2
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:31 am | Permalink

        Funded by the EU?

        • Peter van LEEUWEN
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:48 am | Permalink

          @Edward2: As one example, the “Eurobarometer” also reported the increase in euroscepsis in the past, having used the same questions for decades concerning its annual “standard eurobarometer” and carried out in all EU member states, including the UK.

          • Edward2
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

            Is your post meant to be a reply to mine?

      • Simeon
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:47 am | Permalink

        Your analysis is overly simplistic,regardless of the reliability or otherwise of your information. The consequences of a single currency for very different eeconomies have become increasingly obvious. The biggest of these is profound economic harm to the southern economies. Opposition to the EU is becoming increasingly radicalised and opinion increasingly polarised. There may or may not be a majority in Europe that are pro EU. But that euroscepticism is growing throughout the EU cannot be reasonably denied. Is your view the product of Little Hollandism perhaps?

        • Peter van LEEUWEN
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:56 am | Permalink

          @Simeon: there may well be increasing criticism about aspects of the EU (the euro, unsolved youth unemployment, etc.) . But there are many aspects. Proper polls show a decrease in euroscepticism, even if not in England.
          What a weird and unfounded remark about “Little Hollandism”.

          • libertarian
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

            PvL

            Are you sure youre looking in the right place?

            Eurosceptic parties enjoyed their best ever results in the European elections on Sunday night as voters flocked in their millions to vote for populist parties and abandoned the two groups that have dominated EU politics for the last 40 years.

            A total of 169 MEPs were returned from eurosceptic parties across the EU

            A study by LSE ( 2018)

            Five countries are leading the way in eurosceptic feelings across the EU, with some even joining forces with their anti-Brussels sentiment.

            1) Hungary
            2)Poland
            3) Italy
            4) Austria

            5….PvL youre going to LOVE this one …. no you are

            Number 5 The Netherlands

          • Peter van LEEUWEN
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:21 pm | Permalink

            @libertarian: Interesting, but flawed reasoning.
            One example – the Netherlands, which for long has had a eurosceptic minority. Its eurosceptic parties lost out in the EP elections 2019:
            PVV – 5 (2014) – 0(2019)
            SP – 2 (2014) – 0 (2019)
            FvD – 0 (2014) – 3 (2019)
            PvdD-1 (2014) – 1 (2019)
            SGP – 2 (2014) – 2 (2019)

            Total 10 (2014), 6 (2019).
            Talking to Frenchmen (yes I also come regularly in France) is not applying statistics, though I’ll grant you, it may give you a flavour.

            Istated that euroscepticism had decreased, not that it was ever absent.

      • JPM
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:49 am | Permalink

        Sure, the gilets jaunes are busting out in pro-EU song as we speak.

        European electorate’s are recoiling from the treatment the UK is receiving, and, in certain countries like Ireland, are buying in to the “EU good, UK bad” mantra of the current commission, but this is unlikely to last, nothing does.

        • Peter van LEEUWEN
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

          @JPM: Protests aren’t necessarily anti-EU protests. Read up about the gilet jaunes in wikipedia.
          I think that the continent sees the brexit process mainly as a UK quarrel with itself. The UK is not “receiving treatment”, the UK is mostly absent (running down the clock).

        • rose
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 1:10 pm | Permalink

          And in Italy the EU has just had to topple another independent-minded leader.

          • Martin in Cardiff
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

            No, the Five Star movement woke up and realised that their partners were a shower of it.

          • rose
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:29 pm | Permalink

            Who thought of witholding the election from the people?

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:52 am | Permalink

        Indeed Peter, look at Italy’s Five Star Movement:

        On January 2017, the M5S tried to change its group inside the European Parliament, moving from Farage’s EFDD to Guy Verhofstadt’s ALDE. Despite an initial agreement, Guy Verhofstadt refused the M5S’ adhesion to the group owing to insufficient guarantees to come to a common position on European integration. The attempted move caused a chilling of relations with EFDD leader Nigel Farage, who was not informed about the M5S’ agreement with the ALDE. Beppe Grillo was highly critical of the rejection and blamed “the establishment” for preventing them joining the ALDE.

        The comically embarrassing spectacle that the UK has made of itself probably informed this decision to a significant degree, I think.

        • Peter van LEEUWEN
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

          @Martin in Cardiff: The last I have read is that the European Greens are also talking to the M5S, as they apparantly see some similar views and M5S voting records on green issues, and because the Greens want to compensate for the expected loss of 11 UK MEPs

        • NickC
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:28 pm | Permalink

          Martin, It is the Remains in power over the last 3 years that have made a spectacle of the UK. The rest of the world thought the UK was an honest democracy which kept its word. The Remains have ruined the UK’s reputation with their bad faith.

      • dennisambler
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 10:13 am | Permalink

        Italy and Hungary are so happy with the EU.

        • Peter van LEEUWEN
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 12:08 pm | Permalink

          @dennisambler: Maybe not . . . but still, Italy just installed a far more pro EU government.

          • libertarian
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 3:51 pm | Permalink

            PvL

            The UK had a more pro EU government even though the people voted to leave the EU , so it doesn’t really say much

    • Christine
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:41 am | Permalink

      Unfortunately, the Withdrawal Agreement is a legally binding international treaty with no get outs or sunset clause. If we sign it, we are stuck in it until the EU allows us to leave. This is why it’s so bad and must never be signed.

      • rose
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

        It is alarming how many people just happen to be musing about passing it through the Commons after all.

  4. Alan jutson
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 5:36 am | Permalink

    Such a shame that the majority of MP’s in Parliament do not share your logic John

    Goodness knows where we go from here

    I guess when we eventually have an election one Party will need to be honest and say they will restore no deal back on the statute book having first made sure that all of those MP’s are on board with that manifesto

    Whilst I had my doubts about Boris he should not resign

    I hope all MP’s are aware of the cost of extension of about one billion a month
    Tell me is this coming off the 39 billion May offered because by now it should be down to 32 billion !!!!!!

    • James1
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:43 am | Permalink

      I recall M Barnier saying that “nothing is agreed until everything is agreed”. Well, everything hasn’t been agreed. Consequently there is no agreement. The putrid WA resulted from the asinine acceptance that “No Deal” could not be countenanced. The whole mess will be very quickly resolved once the electorate are given their say at the next GE, and the political nonentities who are the current focus of the main stream media are unceremoniously removed.

    • tim
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:42 am | Permalink

      well I recon we have paid about £13,650,000,000 to these parasites since 17,400,000 people voted to leave. Correct me if I am wrong? I recon that is about £803 each. just done this in my head so please give me some feed back.

      • julie williams
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 10:37 am | Permalink

        Perhaps we should consider demanding a refund from the Tax Office on the basis that the electorate was given the power to choose and we chose to leave (ratified by a huge majority in Parliament and triggering of Article 50) thus the payments to the EU should have ceased on 29 March, 2019 .
        Where are the money bills for all these extensions anyway; oh, that’s right…Mr Bercow says that they are not required and he is the de facto ruler in the UK.

      • tim
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

        Tim— I believe I was wrong! It is even more- £18,200,000,000 per annum, I recon since referendum we have paid £59,150,000,000 already! so I recon we want £20,000,000,000 returning to UK.
        EU conspiritors need locking up!

  5. gregory martin
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 5:37 am | Permalink

    Spot on.
    There should be little to be added to that.
    Perhaps we could leave on 30/09/2018, then by 31/10/2019, the ‘ bumps in the road’ could be the final resting place for remainers.

  6. gregory martin
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 5:38 am | Permalink

    Spot on.
    There should be little to be added to that.
    Perhaps we could leave on 30/09/2019, then by 31/10/2019, the ‘ bumps in the road’ could be the final resting place for remainers.

  7. Matt Ryan
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 5:38 am | Permalink

    Cue claims that Vote Leave promised an easy deal which totally ignore the concerted effort to frustrate just that outcome by Continuity Remain.

    • BJC
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:06 am | Permalink

      Remainers have cleverly conflated two issues without so much as a blush. The Deal being spoken about by Vote Leave and understood by the public was, of course, a Free Trade Deal.

      I don’t believe anyone had even heard of a Withdrawal Treaty before Mrs May agreed to the EU’s sequencing.

      • Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:04 am | Permalink

        Most surely we don’t need a trade deal in order to leave this corrupt outfit. People will continue to trade.

        We know the EU only wants us for our money. And because they’re afraid of the thralls seeing that a free country can be successful. Why on earth can’t the remains at the bottom of the heap see that? (The remains now crowing at the top of the heap have their own personal agenda.)

      • GilesB
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:13 am | Permalink

        Totally agree.

        May should never have agreed this absurd sequencing.

        The transitional arrangements should not be the tail wagging the dog.

        ‘The deal’ needs to include the future relationship.

        Which is what Art 50 says! ‘The withdrawal agreement should be negotiated taking into account the future relationship’.

        We need to start again by negotiating the long term relationship (which could be WTO terms) and then, and only then, discuss the transition arrangements.

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:22 am | Permalink

        Which is just one reason why the electorate were too uninformed to have been given a referendum, and why it should never have happened as it did.

        • libertarian
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 10:39 am | Permalink

          Mic

          Meanwhile Martin who has got every fact he’s posted so far wrong, who knows nothing about trade or trading overseas is so intelligent he is the only one who should decide

          You do realise hero of the working class, that the same argument was used to stop non land owners voting, then it was used to stop women voting. Yet you and your mates at the same time as telling us we aren’t smart enough to vote also want 16 year olds given the vote…

          Muppets the lot of you

          • Martin in Cardiff
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:03 am | Permalink

            No, you traduce me completely with your usual Straw Men.

            There should have been a proper information campaign, and a choice between two defined, realisable objectives.

            E.g. Remain on present terms, or begin a process of disengagement, aimed at as independent a relationship as possible.

            Parties could then have had manifestoes on the detail of the latter position if they wished, and the country could have moved forward according to its democratic norms.

          • libertarian
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

            MiC

            There was you must have missed it.

            We were offered the choice

            Leave or Remain.

            We chose to leave. Knowing that it meant leaving ALL the institutions of the EU, single market, CU, ECJ, everything

            The remainers then INVENTED an argument that somehow WTO was the end of the world ( it isn’t) and that if only we’d known we wouldn’t have chosen to leave. Total cobblers , excuses invented by the losers.

            By the way if remain had anyone capable of thinking things through , it they hadn’t thrown their toys out of the pram and had attacked this rationally they should have accepted the result and pushed EFTA as an acceptable alternative to both camps. They didn’t they went on a rampage of name calling, dummy spitting, invented scare stories etc and all they’ve now achieved is to harden a majority to leaving with no deal

            ps You cant remain on present terms because the term of remaining keep changing . I campaigned and voted to join the EEC in 1975 , since then it has moved, moved, moved, changed , altered, added all without ever asking voters except where in one or two countries, Denmark, Holland Ireland where they were given a vote ALL of them rejected it and were made to vote again….. Do you see the pattern Martin?

      • Christine
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:48 am | Permalink

        Well said. The Withdrawal Treaty is not a trade deal. The media in collusion with the remainers have led the public to believe that it is. A trade deal cannot be negotiated until after we have left.

      • rose
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 1:16 pm | Permalink

        BJC This point is critical. I can’t understand why the government doesn’t keep making it. Perhaps they are frightened of losing even more faint-hearted backbenchers if they make the contrast plain and thus highlight Mrs May’s folly?

    • Andy
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:50 am | Permalink

      Vote Leave did promise an easy deal.

      Mrs May established a Cabinet packed full of Leavers in key roles. She set up a Brexit department staffed entirely with some of the most passionate Brexiteers – including some of the key dimwits including Baker and Braverman. She tasked them with coming up with practical solutions to their promises. Over a period of more than two years they monumentally failed.

      And so you blamed the people who told you Brexit would be naff for Brexit being naff.

      All Brexiteers ever had to do was what Vote Leave said you would – deliver all the benefits of EU membership with none of the responsibilities. Stop blaming those of us who told you unicorns do not exist for unicorns not existing.

      Reply Mrs May chose a government with a strong Remain majority and sidelined the Brexit department, costing her two Brexit Secretaries

      • NickC
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

        Andy, VoteLeave did not promise an easy deal.

        Theresa May by-passed her own Brexit ministry, to keep us in the EU.

        We voted Leave because there are no EU unicorn “benefits”.

        We did not vote to continue being controlled by the EU.

        We were promised that our vote to Leave would be implemented.

        The Remain Parliament has overturned our Leave vote.

        So what we have now is Remain.

        So why should we trust or even obey your traitorous Remain MPs?

        Naff isn’t it?

  8. Julie Williams
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 5:39 am | Permalink

    All well and good but what do we do if Parliament won’t listen or co-operate.
    It’s put the UK in a despicable deadlock.
    One that, let’s face it, a Speaker doing the job properly would never allow.
    The bill that it has passed should never be given Queens Consent because it is ultra vires.
    It’s no good Johnson appealing to people power, we are not the pitchfork and burning brand type of nation: if this was happening in France there would be smashed Windows and burning cars by now.
    So let’s keep it simple: Brexit at end October or there will be a mass exodus of working class voters from the Conservative and Labour parties.
    A General Election cannot be put off forever and delay gives the Brexit Party more time, do they really think that after all this time and all their betrayal we are going to give in?
    If the “rebel alliance” think that they have popular support they are frankly delusional.
    That’s why they don’t have the guts to stand for by-elections or honestly stand for revoking Article 50.
    They are pathetic: we know it, they know it.

    • Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:06 am | Permalink

      @Julie ——–> Indeed…

      The remainer’s main strategy is to delay any decision on Brexit, and then to delay it some more … They hope that this will mean we stay in the EU…

      Eventually, of course, if they keep on delaying us, they will be able to claim that the referendum was so long ago, that we need a new one….which they will expect to win – but even if they didn’t we could not expect them to support Brexit… Yes, they are pathetic.

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:11 am | Permalink

        This morning on the BBC when asked by the presenter:

        “Where does this end?”

        Sian Berry, the co-leader of the Green Party, replied:

        “I hope it ends with us remaining in the European Union.”

        Last night Liz Saville Roberts of Plaid Cymru said:

        https://www.breakingnews.ie/world/we-have-an-opportunity-to-bring-down-boris-opposition-to-vote-against-johnsons-uk-election-bid-948731.html

        “We have an opportunity to bring down Boris, to break Boris and to bring down Brexit, and we must take that.”

        With a deal or without a deal is basically irrelevant, the point is to do what that bloke keeps shouting outside Parliament, “Stop Brexit”.

        • Posted September 7, 2019 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

          @Dennis

          Yes – that really shows their hatred for the UK – They certainly do not want anything good for us…

          • Martin in Cardiff
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

            No, it shows their love of country, love of the world, and love of life.

          • NickC
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

            Bryan Harris, Yes, hatred of the UK, hatred of Leave voters, hatred of democracy, and fear of independence.

          • Robert mcdonald
            Posted September 8, 2019 at 9:41 am | Permalink

            Martin .. they walk around sticking a blue flag with some stars on it in our face and making sure they obscure any union Jack’s flying nearby, they block the world from trading with them through their protectionist policies .. they definitely love their life however, as witnessed by the jollies they enjoy and the excessive living expenses they spread among their mates .. the (named family ed) are millionaires after a few years in the eurocracy .. bet they are really enjoying their life.

    • David J
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:17 am | Permalink

      Well said Julie

    • steve
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:21 am | Permalink

      Julie Williams

      “let’s face it, a Speaker doing the job properly would never allow.
      The bill that it has passed should never be given Queens Consent because it is ultra vires.”

      And there you have hit the nail on the head Julie.

      The anglophobes have only been able to pull off any of their stunts because they have a bent speaker in the HoC. He is the real culprit and quite frankly I don’t know why the Queen has not picked up on this and sacked him.

    • Timaction
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:11 am | Permalink

      +1

    • Pete S
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:26 am | Permalink

      Queens consent challenge, does not come until 3rd reading. The squeaker has said he has checked, that is one legal opinion. Maybe the AG will challenge on monday.

      • steve
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

        Pete S

        “Maybe the AG will challenge on monday.”

        In my experience those of a yellow stripe reputation can only have their dependability compared to a cardboard bath seat. So don’t count on it.

  9. Tabulazero
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 5:42 am | Permalink

    Yes and they belong to a multinational political and economic trade block with a consistent set of rules which underpins in term of trade amongst them 6 times what they collectively trade with the UK and which they have no intention to undermine by letting the UK be the sole country that can chose its own rules.

    If after 3 years of negotiations with the EU you have not understood that the EU will not sacrifice the Single-Market to the benefit of the Conservative party then you must not have paid much attention.

    If you bother to read the continental press, you will find that the mood on the Continent is rather better no deal than no backstop from the EU’s perspective given how little they trust Boris Johnson who is seen as a serial liar which he actually is.

    • Shirley
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:22 am | Permalink

      Serial liar? Here they are: Those who promised to respect the referendum result. Those who voted for A50. Those who voted for the EU WA. Those who lied that they would respect the referendum result in the run up to the 2017 GE in order to get re-elected. The manifestos of both main parties.

      Most of all, those who claim they don’t want ‘no deal’ while making every effort to ensure the only deal offered is worse than Remaining.

      That is quite a list of serial lying. Yet some people still support these serial liars. They must be masochists.

      • Tabulazero
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:58 am | Permalink

        Yes. Any deal will be worse than remaining. That is pretty obvious.

        You do not expect the EU to help the UK dismantle it, right ?

        The liars are those who promised during the referendum that leaving the EU would be a quick and painless exercise with considerable upside.

        John Redwood is smart enough to have know that this would not be the case but he chose to lie anyway because his whole political career has been built on Brexit.

        Reply I always said leaving could be an easy process under Article 50 if we wanted it to be , but the UK government decided to make it a difficult process instead. All we had to do was to pass the laws we passed, announce we were just leaving and table a Free Trade Agreement.

        • NickC
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 4:54 pm | Permalink

          Tabulazero said: “Any deal will be worse than remaining”. Well, that’s obviously not true. And a (misnamed) “no deal” is better too. Moreover, you seem to forget about the rest of the world, which is not in the EU. We could be as independent of the EU as New Zealand – that’s a good deal!

          • Tabulazero
            Posted September 8, 2019 at 6:00 am | Permalink

            Add all the population of New Zealand and throw in Australia in the mix and you get roughly Poland. Have I mentioned yet the other 26 countries that constitute the EU ?

            They are not that many countries with a GDP high enough to consume the kind of expensive and intricate goods the UK produces.

            Luckily, there is a big concentration of such countries just 30km of Dover

      • Peter van LEEUWEN
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:27 am | Permalink

        @Shirley:
        “the only deal offered is worse than Remaining”
        How could you ever have expected that the EU27 would offer a deal that is better than remaining???
        There is value in belonging to this EU-club. You lose that value when you leave.

        That lost value may be compensated for by your sense of freedom and independence. Possibly that is worth much more to you than the damage a disorderly withdrawal will cause? In that sense, the UK holds all the cards. It will be the UK’s decision.

        • Shirley
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 10:57 am | Permalink

          I didn’t expect the EU to offer a fair deal, which is why I was reassured by the phrase ‘no deal is better than a bad deal’ which as been in use for the last 3 years, but that was just another lie, wasn’t it? This rogue Parliament wants a bad deal, or Remain.

        • NickC
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

          PvL said: “How could you ever have expected that the EU27 would offer a deal that is better than remaining?”

          I didn’t.

          Which is why I have consistently advocated leaving by repealing the ECA 1972, patriating EU Regulations as an interim measure, and walking away from your corrupt, power-obsessed EU empire.

          There must be no deals with the EU that we could not make with other states.

    • BJC
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:50 am | Permalink

      Tabulazero

      You are correct that we shouldn’t expect the EU to adapt its rules to accommodate the needs of the UK, which is why Mrs May negotiated to Remain with concessions and saved them the bother.

      The situation stems from the legally binding treaties, which shackles Brussels unless they are able/willing or compelled to ignore/amend them. With No Deal on the table the EU have felt compelled to consider whether they should be willing to make these amendments. Sadly, we have a Parliament high on the drug of power, that has again saved them the bother.

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:23 am | Permalink

        The situation stems from the europhilia of most of those who have control of UK political parties, europhilia ingrained over six decades. Hence we have a Parliament which strongly supports EU membership failing to represent the general population, which is at best evenly divided on the matter even after decades of pro-EU propaganda. It was only a matter of time before the grief wore off and more and more MPs who have never accepted the referendum result in their hearts decided that they would ignore it.

        • NickC
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

          Denis Cooper, That’s true. We now have a Remain coalition government too. Unless Boris can pull something out of his hat, the Tory government is over. The Tories just don’t seem to know it.

    • Woody
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:27 am | Permalink

      Why are you singling out the Tory party as a party that set out its stall to uphold the democratic decision of the people, the Labour manifesto also clearly stated that they would implement the 2016 decision of the people. They clearly lied … and cannot be trusted to keep their promises … bit like the lib anti dems with Cleggs student fee promise not processed when in power.

    • Julie Williams
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:30 am | Permalink

      Good: we’re in agreement then.

      No Deal, no extension.

      Then we have sensible talks on a trade deal.
      The EU can then focus on serious issues such as the migrant crisis and Eurozone integration, it can federalise and can have it’s own army with the UK’s blessing instead of a UK veto.

    • libertarian
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:08 am | Permalink

      Tabulazero

      The consistency set of rules you say…. Hmm you need to speak to VW cars about that

      Oh and the new head of the ECB , Christine Legarde admitted they had to break the rules in order to support the Eurozone

      The EU will not sacrifice the “single market in goods” in order to have cheaper products in Europe but will seek to maintain the protections in place bought about by the more than 1200 lobbyists who work on behalf of major corporations

      Reading about the continent seems to be taken up with the ongoing weekly rioting in France against the very things you claim are important

    • Richard416
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:37 am | Permalink

      Most politicians have told lies and half truths in their career (present company excepted of course) but look at all the politicians who were elected on a manifesto that promised us we would leave the e.u. in accordance with the referendum majority, and have proved that they are remainers determined to keep us in. They are the fraudsters and liars. In any other walk of life they would be in breach of the law, whether that was theft, fraud, trading standards, impersonating a police officer, e-mail scamming and so on.

  10. Peter van LEEUWEN
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:01 am | Permalink

    IMHO, the advantage of a no-deal threat is a fallacy. The continent is prepared in heart and mind for no-deal.
    Also, this is not a negotiation like buying a car, this is about a divorce settlement (article 50).

    As proven this week the UK already had control of its own laws and it has just made one: going about the divorce more responsibly.

    • Kenneth
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:09 am | Permalink

      I would be interested in knowing the reasoning behind your comment.

      It may not be like buying a car, but it IS a negotiation all the same. The divorce analogy doesn’t help me because that too usually requires negotiation.

      My only point of reference is my experience of previous negotiations and I must concur with John Redwood’s logic, that, if you let it be known that you will not walk away, you will get a poorer deal.

      You state: “the advantage of a no-deal threat is a fallacy”

      Why?

      • Peter van LEEUWEN
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

        @Kenneth: My best reference is the Netherlands, although I also follow media in neighbouring countries and Dutch economic opinions are usually close to German ones.

        While the Netherlands may become the hardest hit after Ireland (and by some distance the UK), over three years now, I haven’t come across any suggestions that the EU27 should give in more to the UK than it has done in the WA, agreed with your previous government. Protecting the Single Market is simply more important than losing the UK as part of it. That requires standing together, as the EU27 is doing.

        Normally you would be correct that the option of walking away from a negotiation provides extra leverage.
        Why not here? I see two possible answers:
        1) The continent knows that walking away would damage the UK more that it would hurt the continent.

        2) The continent views the EU as much more than just some trading arrangement. E.g. that is why we stand by Ireland, which is considered one of us.

        Therefore, the no-deal option wouldn’t have provided the UK with real leverage.
        Having gone for a temporary Norway-plus option might have been a smarter approach, as it would have provided time to seek together (UK-EU) for alternative arrangements for the no border border in Ireland, but I fear that it is a bit late now for that venue.

        • libertarian
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

          pvL

          ????? Really

          So when did Japan and Canada join the single market to maintain its integrity? Why cant the UK have a deal outside the single market?

          What every remainer fails to explain is what benefit you think the single market even brings you and why you need the EU to do that

          Walking away is far less damaging to the UK. The highest WTO tariffs are on tobacco & cars…guess who exports the most of those ..

          The UK views the EU as much more than just a trading arrangement thats why we’re walking away

          I agree that if the Remain camp in the UK had any sense at all, rather than throw their toys out of the pram they could have engineered a move to EFTA and softened the exit but they didn’t

          • Peter van LEEUWEN
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:37 pm | Permalink

            @libertarian: Of course the UK may have a future relationship/FTA like JApan or Canada. It was already shown in Barnier’s famous 1A4 slide end of 2017 (google for “barnier’s brexit slide”).
            That all comes AFTER an orderly withdraw/divorce. Why the UK didn’t understand that in 2017 still baffles me.
            It is equally clear to me that by not resolving the various items in the WA after say a no-deal brexit, will stand in the way of ANY talks about trade even starting, as has been made clear as well.

    • Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:14 am | Permalink

      Mr van L – perhaps it’d be a little more truthful if you left out the ‘H’ in your opening ‘IMHO’. It might make you sound a little less patronising. Not much, though.

      • Peter van LEEUWEN
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

        @L Jones: If you so wish, I can drop the H.

        • NickC
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:33 pm | Permalink

          PvL, We never thought the H was applicable to you.

    • Oggy
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:46 am | Permalink

      Rubbish Peter, we did not have control of our own laws, the speaker tore up our constitution to allow the opposition to govern our country for a day and impose this law upon us. It was nothing less than a coup. Philip Hammond also let slip that Brussels had a hand in it’s origins.

      Our traitor remainer MP’s have removed no deal, voted against the only deal the EU will offer 3 times, so what does that leave ? Oh of course remaining in the EU which is what 350 useless people in the House of Commons really want but 17.4 million people don’t. This is EU democracy not UK democracy.

      • Peter van LEEUWEN
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

        @Oggy: “tearing up” an unwritten constitution?
        You have a rather strong opinion about your parliament. I better not comment on that.

        • NickC
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:35 pm | Permalink

          PvL, That just shows how little you know about the UK. We do have a written constitution. Just not written all in one place to suit obsessive eurocrats like you.

    • mickc
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:49 am | Permalink

      How do you have control if EU law is superior?

      • Peter van LEEUWEN
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 1:08 pm | Permalink

        @mickc: Apparently, there are lots of laws on which the EU has no say whatsoever.

        • NickC
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 5:07 pm | Permalink

          PvL, Declaration 17 of Lisbon states that EU law has primacy. Don’t you Remains know anything?

          • Peter van LEEUWEN
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:43 pm | Permalink

            @NickC: Being Dutch and living in the Netherlands, I cannot be a “remainer”or “remoaner” or “traitor” or whatever terms are popular in the UK. There are only certain sections of law over which the EU has any involvement or say.

          • NickC
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

            PvL, If the hat fits – wear it. If you don’t want to be considered a Remain, stop coming out with Remain propaganda.

    • Fred H
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:06 am | Permalink

      Peter ….there are many assurances from the EU that they are ready for NO-Deal, so why fight it? Bring it on. If Boris or some pale shadow of a PM does write asking for ANOTHER DELAY the EU should say NON! Macron would love to be the one to follow in the footsteps of that tall Frenchman who got fame from just that word, oh and living comfortably in London during WW2.

      • Peter van LEEUWEN
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

        @Fred H: No-deal indeed can still happen.

    • libertarian
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:09 am | Permalink

      PvL

      Unless you’ve been married to 27 people at the same time this is NOTHING like a divorce

      • Peter van LEEUWEN
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

        @libertarian: That’s one way of looking at it 🙂
        You could also view it as two “entities” (the UK and the EU27) separating.

        • libertarian
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 4:20 pm | Permalink

          PvL

          But we keep being told that ( see Martin in Cardiff for full details) that the EU is not a single government its just a council that brings together 27 separate countries

        • NickC
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

          PvL, No it isn’t. The UK is abrogating the EU treaties. Any agreement requires that the EU should take into account the framework for the future relationship. Which the dWA doesn’t. The EU is acting in bad faith partly out of spite, but mostly to protect its own power base.

          • Peter van LEEUWEN
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:49 pm | Permalink

            @libertarian: I usually describe the EU as a hybrid construct, for a part supranational, for a part intergovernmental. The intergovernmental (e.g. the European Council) has been the strongest for a long time already. Interesting as the European Council didn’t exist nor was it forseen in the early days (treaty of Rome)

    • Bob
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:11 am | Permalink

      @PvL

      “this is about a divorce settlement (article 50).”


      In a divorce settlement there is an equitable distribution of the marital estate.
      So do you agree that Britain should get a fair share of the EU assets that it jointly paid for?

      • Peter van LEEUWEN
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

        @Bob: I don’t know the details of the WA, maybe what you are suggesting is already included.

        • rose
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

          Of course it isn’t included. The best answer would have been to admit this is not a divorce. We are not a …. husband with 27 wives. We are a country seeking to restore our thousand year old independence. We should not have to pay for that, nor should we have to pay for a Free Trade Deal.

          We were an empire once, and we granted independence to a lot of countries without behaving as the EU empire is. We wanted them to prosper on their own and stay friends with us.

          • Peter van LEEUWEN
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

            @rose: You’re not asked to pay for a FTA, your required only to pay for the commitments you made. You’re not required to pay anything on top of that.

    • steve
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:13 am | Permalink

      PvL

      The majority in England don’t really care much for European opinion, I don’t know why you waste your time giving it.

      • Peter van LEEUWEN
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 1:16 pm | Permalink

        @steve: Indeed and they have never really cared much or taken an interest.
        Maybe I should stop wasting my time here.

        • steve
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 5:36 pm | Permalink

          PvL

          Good idea. Bye.

        • NickC
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:43 pm | Permalink

          PvL, Whether you stop is up to you. But you are wasting your time here. Until such time as you become honest. We’ve had 46 years to see the reality of your EU ideology. And we don’t like it – it reminds us too much of other failed C20th European ideologies.

    • Timaction
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:14 am | Permalink

      It really is no business of yours and I find your intrusions offensive. Keep your opinions to Dutch matters and the fact that British people are starting to look at other options when buying non cooperative and opinionated EU goods and services.

      • Peter van LEEUWEN
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

        @Timaction: I’m afraid you cannot dictate me over what I should have opinions or not. Keep the faith, soon you’ll be free!

        • dixie
          Posted September 8, 2019 at 8:04 am | Permalink

          I do wonder why you feel the need to interfere in our affairs though.

      • steve
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

        Timaction

        “Keep your opinions to Dutch matters and the fact that British people are starting to look at other options when buying non cooperative and opinionated EU goods”

        …..I already did so back in March, 29th to be exact.

        I only buy goods from countries that can be considered true allies. Hence British for food, American for tools.

        I’ve started growing my own food too, and cooking with solid fuel using traditional recipes. Quite successful so far.

        Long term aim is to get the house off grid.

        I also have some hens on the way, one will be called Corbyn for obvious reasons.

    • IanT
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:23 am | Permalink

      Whether it is a fallacy or not Peter – it seems most people would prefer a WTO Exit than the alternatives (such as continued EU membership – or a Corbyn Government)

      I believe the Remainers are making a serious tactical error in delaying the GE – it’s just going to upset people even more…

    • Dave Andrews
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:24 am | Permalink

      Very few in the UK regard this as a divorce settlement. Perhaps 10% of the electorate feel wedded to the EU, another 10% (as largely represented on this blog) feel it’s an abusive relationship and the remaining 80% regard the EU more like a dead-beat dad, they don’t particularly love or hate, the birthday presents from whom have been paid for by their mum.
      To me this is just end of contract, with a 2 year notice. I might accept responsibility to contribute to projects already committed to, but not lavish gold-plated pensions.

      • Peter van LEEUWEN
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

        @Dave Andrews: OK. But how are you going to deny Nigel Farage his lavish gold-paled pension? He would take you to court!

        • Timaction
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

          Member states don’t pay in advance of joining so as a positive contributor we don’t have to pay anything on leaving!

        • Dave Andrews
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

          I’m not going to, and I don’t need to. His pension is the liability of the EU. If they don’t have the means to pay it, he can sue them himself. His fight, I don’t care.

        • steve
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 5:40 pm | Permalink

          PvL

          You still here ?

          Nigel Farage, like some others can have a gold plated pension, we don’t mind.

          Others though deserve nothing more than imprisonment.

          Anyway I thought you were going.

  11. Wilfrid Whattam
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:09 am | Permalink

    Never previously have I thought not to vote for the Labour Party. How things have changed! The Labour Party has betrayed its roots. It is now the Party of the Comfortable Urban pseudo-Leftie. Bring on a GE and bring on a massive majority for a BP/Conservative alliance – but only as a temporary expedient! We on the Left need a new Independent Labour Party a la Lansbury and co. I feel for Corbyn, because I suspect that he has been immensely pressured to put unity of the Labour Party ahead of his principles. Would that he make a shock resignation – dream on, me!!

    • Oggy
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:58 am | Permalink

      He reminds me of a dangerous version of Citizen Smith of the ‘Tooting peoples popular front’. ‘Power to the people !’ only it’s Corbyn that wants the power and sod the people.

    • Original Richard
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:51 am | Permalink

      Wilfrid Whattam : “Bring on a GE and bring on a massive majority for a BP/Conservative alliance – but only as a temporary expedient!”

      I have previously suggested that the Brexit Party, once Brexit has been achieved, should offer the electorate that their MPs will resign to cause a by election so that “normal” politics can resume. These MPs could of course stand for re-election if they wish.

      Although I’m not sure of our PM’s real end goal, and perhaps he does not know yet either, I am certain he realises that his party will be greatly diminished if he does not achieve Brexit and the Brexit Party will overtake his party in popularity just as the Lib Dems are overtaking the Labour Party.

      So perhaps both the Conservative and Brexit parties should make the offer to the electorate for their MPs to resign after Brexit has been achieved so that all leavers can feel “safe” in voting for Brexit supporting candidates at the next GE.

      Note that this could be in 2022 as we have a Parliament full of remainers who don’t want a GE.

    • Lifelogic
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:37 am | Permalink

      “Bring on a GE and bring on a massive majority for a BP/Conservative alliance“ yes please. Currently just the threat of a confiscatory Marxist EUphile Government under Corbyn/Mc Donnall/SNP is destroying confidence and deterring me and millions of others from investing further in the UK.

      Get a proper Conservative/Brexit Government as soon as possible. One that believes in low taxes, cheap reliable energy, small government, freedom and choice. Expunge the dire 21 and many other “Conservative” traitors and collaborators who are assisting the EU, destroying the Conservative party, forcing surrender bills on the PM and is vehemently against the people.

    • tim
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:50 am | Permalink

      corbyn is in a masssive remain seat. His only concern is himself.
      LABOUR SHOULD BE RENAMED THE BREXIT BETRAYAL REMAIN PARTY

    • julie williams
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 10:53 am | Permalink

      It really is astonishing that the Labour Party now appear to be in favour of remaining in the EU.
      There is an interesting article by an Austrian on the CapX website about how the CAP ( not yet reformed as the EU promised) takes up a huge amount of the EU budget (approx. 36%) of which the amount fed back to the UK is tiny in comparison with other countries like France, Belgium and Ireland.
      Surpluses of milk and grain are sold at heavily discounted prices to African nations, thus rendering it almost impossible for their farmers to sell their produce as they cannot compete.
      To top it all, research by Oxfam in 2006 revealed that UK households had to pay an average of £800 per annum more than they would otherwise because of the CAP.
      To summarise; the UK taxpayer is paying the EU farmers a lot of money to buy produce from them at artificially high prices whilst damaging African economies.

      This might not be a problem if it ensured that small farms survived but it also benefits massively profitable companies and landowners.

      • tim
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 4:03 pm | Permalink

        But the British/Brussels Brainwashing corporation will never show these things.

    • sm
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

      Wilfrid, I’ve never voted Labour but I agree with you that what is needed is a Labour Party that will believe in honesty, responsibility and workers being treated with respect, not as fodder for Trades Union barons. The kind of Labour that encouraged the working class to become educated through organisations such as the Workers Educational Association.

      It is well known that Mr Corbyn has been a dedicated Eurosceptic throughout his political career – that he is irrevocably caught up in the tentacles of his Momentum managers and the unpleasant legacy of Mr Blair says much about him. But given, for example, the unbelievable hypocrisy of John Major’s current actions, we Conservatives have little to boast about.

  12. John Sheridan
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:10 am | Permalink

    I would like to think that the majority of MPs agree with your observations about negotiating with the EU; it’s just their reluctance to leave which causes them to undermine negotiations.

    It’s a shame that MPs spend so much time blocking Brexit rather than taking advantage of the freedoms it will give the UK.

  13. Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:15 am | Permalink

    So May and the remainers know all this, and yet we are where we are, in an intolerable position…. There can only be one conclusion – and it is Not that they believe in the EU – There is something else going on…and we need to trace it out.
    If it is simply that so many MP’s believe the fake stories, then we have a real problem – because if so many of the allegedly brightest in our society, cannot see the difference between truth and deceit how can we expect Parliament to work at all?
    Those that worked to create and support the bill from the Tory side have been isolated and will be removed, except for the Speaker who is still facing his Waterloo.
    Labour,SNP, Libdems did it to hurt the English and destroy Brexit, and they really need to be shamed into admitting that they do not actually work for the good of the UK.

    • Julie Williams
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:42 am | Permalink

      If I was going to be a conspiracy theorist, I would suggest that the global economy is like a house of cards which can only stay standing whilst key cards stay in place, remove a peripheral card like Greece and the fabric teeters,remove a key card like the UK and it falls down.
      Alternatively, some people liken the EU and particularly the Eurozone to a Ponzi scheme: it seems to work very well for everyone right up until it can no longer self-perpetuate and a lot of people have a lot of money in it.
      The old-fashioned view would be good old bribery bad blackmail with the EU reminding certain politicians that they’ve got plenty of beans to spill on them.

      • Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:09 am | Permalink

        @Julie

        I’m beginning to see conspiracy theorists as mainstream …

        Yes, one has to suspect that money has been greasing some palms

  14. Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:38 am | Permalink

    Only if people are truly negotiating. Our elite establishment were doing it in name only.

    • Peter van LEEUWEN
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:36 am | Permalink

      @Nig l:
      There is very little to negotiate now, that only gets underway once the UK has left the EU.
      A responsible divorce COULD have been leaving in stages: Going temporarily for a Norway option, and from there (say after 3 or 5 years) to full separation.
      Instead, as seen from the continent, the UK has mainly been quarreling with itself all this time.

      • anon
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:52 am | Permalink

        EU law is supreme, irrespective of democratic control.
        How else are we still members?

        • Martin in Cardiff
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

          Do you understand what a “Treaty” is?

          Didn’t think so.

          • NickC
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:46 pm | Permalink

            Martin, Do you understand the difference between the EU treaties and other treaties?

            Didn’t think so.

      • dixie
        Posted September 8, 2019 at 8:08 am | Permalink

        How could a divorce possibly ever follow a “responsible” course when one partner threatens punishment and damage to the other.

    • Pete S
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:29 am | Permalink

      May was not negotiating, she was just taking orders.

    • Al
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

      Nig L, there is a more disturbing option than negotiating ‘in name only’.

      Imagine if our ‘elite establishment’ really were negotiating to the best of their ability and that was the best they could come up with!

  15. Mark B
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:48 am | Permalink

    Good morning.

    The problem here is, is that our kind host is confusing what many feel is a natural course of action in any negotiations, which is understandable, to that which actually took place. That is to say, there were never any meaningful negotiations because those doing said negotiations (sic) were not in fact negotiating to Leave the EU but, to Remain as closely aligned so that the UK could seamlessly slip back in at a later date. The EU knew this and this was given away by the EU themselves in the Channel 4 documentary.

    My next door neighbour is a very accomplished negotiator. She never pays the asking price and always gets the deal she wants or does not pay. In short, she is prepared to walk away and go elsewhere. This is the strength of true capitalism and those seeking the best outcome. Theresa May MP and others never sought that and neither is Alexander Johnson MP.

    As I said before, the HoC should have been offered the opportunity of revoking Art.50 and made it a Confidence Motion plus a Three Line Whip to reject it. Such a move would have removed two of the three options we have leaving just Leaving without a WA as the only option. The HoC would have spoken and that would have been that. The EU will not renegotiate the WA that the HoC rejected three times and had signalled that Revoking Art.50 was not wanted either. Now we have a real mess in which on asking HMQ not to sign the ‘Benny Hill Bill’ is now the last throw of the dice unless, he can get a GE, which he won’t.

    All that Eton and Oxford education is for nought.

  16. Cortona
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:51 am | Permalink

    Sir John, bizarrely I find myself agreeing with the LibDems at times now as the WA is inferior to remaining so they are offering the better option in this Checkmate. However, I fear that creates a poisonous climate where the 52% will have been told that this 3 year saga proves the UK is too pathetic and shambolic to resist any EU demand or policy however unreasonable so the bitter arguments and national wounds will never heal.
    This perpetual state of weakness reminds me of the end of the film Total Recall where the rulers demonstrate that they can shut down the air supply to the colony on Mars if the people dissent. I’m mystified why the EU’s supporters fanatically adore an institution that threatens to kill dissenters via medicine shortages, as they believe will happen, but that seems to be the case.
    Looking at the nutters screaming in Westminster with flags every day and every news report that narrative dominates , that we must embrace this empire however malicious its threats of resistance, but what can we do about that.. I am usually a fighter but I don’t want this toxic debate to go on much longer for the sake of my kids above all else.

    Reply It has to be ended by just leaving. Those of us who lost the 1975 referendum accepted the verdict and put up with life in the EEC

    • Peter van LEEUWEN
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

      @Cortona: the empire finished in 1997 with the hand-over of Hongkong, and the EU Medicine shortages are also foreseen in my country by Dutch hospitals in case of a no-deal Brexit. Our government is looking into measures to prevent shortages.

      The Netherlands doesn’t ask for no-deal, the Netherlands never asked for Brexit. No EU27 memberstate ever asked for Brexit.

      • sm
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

        Peter, since The Netherlands isn’t leaving the EU, why would you suffer pharmaceutical shortages? This is a genuine question.

        • NickC
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:50 pm | Permalink

          Sm, He doesn’t actually know – he’s just an EU ideologist.

      • Cortona
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

        Peter, we need to stop thinking our opponents are evil or stupid on both sides so let’s try and understand each other. Why do you raise the British Empire? It strikes me that pro EU fanatics celebrate the end of the British Empire on moral grounds but then never question the creation of an EU Empire. It seems t9 me that the system makes the Germans richer and Greeks & Italians poorer but that is the new moral high ground of Remainers for some reason?
        I’d have thought making the rich richer at the cost of poorer countries would be more open to question.
        I think those supporting Brexit saw the EU as a protection racket threatening to burn down any shop that doesn’t pay up without any justification beyond serving itself. As an EU member we already fulfil all requirements for frictionless trade and are happy to maintain that post Brexit. The question is why the EU mafia won’t? Because we will sneak chlorinated chicken into France?? USA already trades medicine with the EU without sneaking in chicken and we wouldn’t either so why can’t BAU continue along sensible lines between friends?
        When Germany committed genocide we rewarded them with the Marshall Plan that made them the strongest in Europe. When we ask to control aspects of our own country that the EU won’t allow they want to create murderous barriers to trade which seems a little unreasonable to me. When Ireland was broke we helped bail them out but now they delight in humiliating us. Please explain t9 me how you are the good guys??

  17. Mike Wilson
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:53 am | Permalink

    Questions for Mr. Redwood. This absurd law compels the PM to ask for an extension. If he refuses he can be held in contempt of Parliament and a judge can send him to prison. What if he resigns? There would have to be a new leadership election. Would this take us beyond 31st October?

    And if Boris went to prison and just sat it out, would he be automatically released if he asks for an extension on November 1st- after we have left?

    If he went to prison would that automatically disbar him from being an MP / PM?

    This whole thing is beyond farce. We should disband Parliament and do democracy like the Swiss.

    Reply The law does not make it a criminal offence to ignore it . It is of course absurd for Parliament to try to bind the hand of a negotiating PM. They either have confidence in him or they have to turf him out of office by voting him out. The whole point of prerogative or government powers is to allow the conduct of diplomacy, treaty making etc without Parliament being a negotiator on the detail. Parliament is ultimately in charge because it can dismiss the PM.

    • Denis Cooper
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:42 am | Permalink

      Parliament has expressly ordered the Prime Minister to pursue a certain course of action, and he must do so. It is the law, overriding any prerogative powers, and he must obey it. Here is the August 2019 edition of the Ministerial Code:

      https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/826920/August-2019-MINISTERIAL-CODE-FINAL-FORMATTED-2.pdf

      With a foreword by Boris Johnson himself in which he writes:

      “… we must uphold the very highest standards of propriety … ”

      According to Section 1.3 of the Code, it:

      “… should be read against the background of the overarching duty on Ministers to comply with the law … ”

      All of us who want to get our country out of the EU are now being tainted by this scoundrel, for whom the only honourable course now left is resignation.

    • Mike Wilson
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:57 am | Permalink

      And if Boris resigned?

  18. steadyeddie
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:54 am | Permalink

    Your outline of walking away would be correct if we were applying to join the EU. It does not apply in the present situation where a small majority of those who chose to vote expressed a view they wished to leave, under a range of possible arrangements. If I announce I am leaving a club, I do not expect them to change their rules to keep me in. You have tried for 40 years to get us out, it is not that simple and may not happen at all.

    • NickC
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:58 pm | Permalink

      Steadyeddie, We don’t need the rules changed – when we’re out we won’t care if the rules are the same or are changed. Most Leave voters wished to depart from the EU with a trade deal similar to the deals with S.Korea, Canada, etc. The EU has refused to negotiate such a trade deal. That is not Leave’s fault.

  19. Kenneth
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:59 am | Permalink

    Remain MPs are playing “fantasy government” while they attempt to take control. These are the same people that brought you the fantasy hard border, the fantasy food shortage and the fantasy “economic catastrophe”.

    Unable to face the reality of the ballot box, they live their lives dreaming of aeroplanes crashing, drug shortages and all the rest.

    The greatest pretence is that somehow we will get a decent deal with the eu by ruling out “no deal”. This is illogical of course but considering it comes from those who shy away from the ballot box, we are stuck them – and their fantasies – for a little while longer.

    NB One particularly irresponsible bit of fantasy propaganda has been the BBC’s promotion of the idea that some drugs will be in short supply. This is in danger of becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy as people may start demanding – and may be granted – extra supplies. People may get ill, not because of any in-built shortage, but because of fake news.

  20. Thames Trader
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:03 am | Permalink

    Remainers are just using the removal of no-deal as a cover story for blocking Brexit.

    Now that Hammond and his tactics are out in the open it’s easy to see why the May agreement ended was just Brexit In Name Only given that he was a key player.

    Boris has wisely got the Tory blood-letting done and the fight back can start from a more sound footing without the diehard Remainers in the Commons. The wise move will be to have an alliance with Farage and field no conservative candidate in solid Labour seats so that they can win enough seats in total to form a Tory / Brexit party coalition and get Brexit done properly.

    • Mike Wilson
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

      There are many Conservative voters that will never vote for Farage’s latest vehicle.

      How many times. I’m not a robot!!!!! Surely you can train your forum software to approve and recognise email addresses.

    • tim
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 4:14 pm | Permalink

      YES PLEASE

  21. DaveM
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:09 am | Permalink

    Please don’t play their game, Sir John. We all know it’s not about stopping “No Deal”, it’s about preventing us leaving the EU dictatorship and that allowing the EU to write the terms of a “leaving” deal would effectively do just that.

    Do the rogue politicians think that if they win this round we’re just going to shrug and say “oh ok, you were right, we’ll just stay in then”?

  22. agricola
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:09 am | Permalink

    You must have read Donalds book under the same title.

    The bottom line of all the parliamentary manoevering against no deal is the desire to keep us in the EU. No degrees of in or out, these people want us firmly in. They realise that no deal on the table might lead to the EU allowing a sensible leave deal, the last thing they want. It may be incompetence on the part of some, but for the remain majority it is malicious and quite deliberate. Interesting to reflect that a few hundred years ago they would have been hung drawn and quartered for their traitorous behaviour. Under any UK sales contract they would be deemed goods not fit for purpose, and returned for recycling. So should be the fate of a large number of our self serving arrogant MPs.

  23. Alouette
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:10 am | Permalink

    In view of climate change, shouldn’t we focus on trade with our near neighbours instead of transporting goods from across the Atlantic and further afield?
    Re the Irish backstop, your column is headed “Speaking for England” so it might be useful for us to read more about the Irish view on the matter as they, presumably, know at first hand what is at stake. As we know, Dominic Raab didn’t even seem to have understood how important Dover is…

    Reply Yes I favour cutting food miles by growing more here at home. Trucking food all the way from Spain and crossing by ferry is not helpful. The Irish view gets wall to wall coverage on the BBC and C4 all the time. I put the view of the Leave majority, which includes a big Leave majority in England, the largest country in the UK.

    • NickC
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:59 pm | Permalink

      Alouette, The climate changes all the time, and always has. Your point is?

  24. Mike Wroe
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:15 am | Permalink

    For those MPs who genuinely understand that we must honour the referendum result and Leave the EU do they not understand that by keeping No Deal on the table this guarantees we get a Deal. Here is how it works. Negotiate from strength for a Free trade deal, no backstop. Outcome A EU agree. Outcome B EU do not agree before October 1st and we leave on WTO terms. We then negotiate a deal from outside the EU starting 1st November. It may take some time but both the UK and EU will make it happen eventually.

  25. Andy
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:22 am | Permalink

    You fail to mention the disadvantages of ‘just walking away’.

    Key among these is that we will all be permanently poorer, that peace in Northern Ireland is at risk, that we may run out of some foods, fuel and medicine – and that some people will die. This is not me making stuff up. This is according to the government’s own analysis in the Operation Yellowhammer documents.

    Tell me Mr Redwood – how many deaths are an acceptable price for Brexit? Your government tells us there will be some – and many of you treat it like a war – so how many? 1? 100? 1000? 100,000?

    What if it is your friends or family – or even you? Iain Duncan Smith is in the Telegraph today talking about Boris being a Brexit ‘martyr’. Martyrs. Really? How dim.

    Reply This is extreme scaremongering. I do not want any deaths from Brexit and do not expect any deaths from Brexit. On your pessimistic analysis how many deaths have we had from EU membership over the years given their responsibility for food and medicine regulation?

    • libertarian
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 10:53 am | Permalink

      Andy

      “Key among these is that we will all be permanently poorer, that peace in Northern Ireland is at risk, that we may run out of some foods, fuel and medicine – and that some people will die. This is not me making stuff up. This is according to the government’s own analysis in the Operation Yellowhammer documents.”

      All of the things that you and this report claim are down to the European Union, not us and not WTO , 100s of countries trade in food, drugs and fuel without the EU, the EU single market or the EU customs union all without problems, without delays and without deaths

      These projected deaths are should they happen entirely at the door of the EU. According to the report you quote they are due to delays in the EU paperwork causing delays and JIT problems

      Why do you support an organisation prepared to sanction deaths in order to have their paperwork adhered to ?

      How many deaths Andy make membership of the EU acceptable ?

    • libertarian
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:07 am | Permalink

      ps

      Andy by the way they are rowing back already

      The Bank of England has revised its forecasts for the possible impact of a “worst case scenario” Brexit, saying exiting the EU without a deal is likely to be less damaging than previously thought.

      Governor Mark Carney told MPs on Wednesday preparations for a possible no-deal Brexit so far this year have lessened the likely economic impact of falling out of the EU without a deal or a transition period.

      “The impact of that has been to reduce, in our judgment, the worst case scenario,” Carney told MPs on the Treasury Select Committee.

      You wait before long it will be minor impact followed by no real impact followed by minor improvement

      At which point we will never hear from you Nemaniac , Margaret Howard, Hans Billy Brown Iversen, Martin the welsh boy ever again

      If on the other hand your predictions become true, I will hold my hands up, say I was wrong and actively campaign to rejoin the EU

    • Eh?
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:33 am | Permalink

      “… peace in Northern Ireland is at risk” It wouldn’t be even in theory if we told the Republic of Ireland that any Irish terrorist attacks in Ulster would be taken as a direct attack by Dublin and a military response would follow on the city of Dublin in a measured way to the attack on Ulster. That is what Churchill would have done. He would have been right. We can call it “The Good Thors Day Warning!”

    • Andy
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

      We have been warned no deal will lead to deaths – and yet Tory no dealers choose to ignore the experts.

      This is easy to resolve. If there is a no deal and the experts are right and people do die we should make sure the no dealers are charged with manslaughter.

      • Edward2
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

        You get more extreme by the day Andy.
        Shall be do the same if we have a deal?
        Shall we do the same if we remain?

  26. BOF
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:23 am | Permalink

    Right now, Parliament has gone rogue, with the connivance of a rogue speaker. It now has even removed the right of the electorate to have any say through an election.

    The only deal offered was beneath contempt and there is only WTO left. There is nothing left to negotiate.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

      You claim a right to three elections in four years? Brenda In Bristol and millions like her don’t.

  27. Reddo
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:27 am | Permalink

    Over three years in, you still think they need us more than we need them. Have you considered seeking therapy? Your refusal to look reality in the eye worries me

    • rose
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

      If they didn’t think they needed us and our money and our market, they would have let us go with a FTA and hoped we would prosper. After all, that is what Article 8 of the Lisbon Treaty advocates.

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

        The European Union is doing absolutely nothing to keep the UK from leaving. It is this country which keeps begging for delays.

        • rose
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 5:09 pm | Permalink

          “The European Union is doing absolutely nothing to keep the UK from leaving.”

          To start with it has been trying to stir up civil war in N Ireland.

          • Martin in Cardiff
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:12 pm | Permalink

            How?

        • Edward2
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 5:12 pm | Permalink

          No a number of remain fans in Parliament are begging to remain.

        • NickC
          Posted September 8, 2019 at 12:04 am | Permalink

          Martin, The EU has been providing Philip Hammond with legal advice to keep us in the EU. Do keep up.

  28. Jiminyjim
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:27 am | Permalink

    The problem with this, or any analogy, is that they all assume a normal commercial negotiation between rational and sensible people. But politics is contaminated, not just here but all over the world and most certainly in the EU, by fake news and ignorant politicians with no experience of the real world, who are out for their own good. The EU, in this respect, is even worse, because those who negotiate on its behalf do not even have responsibility for the people in the nations to temper their idiocy. They care only for the ‘success’ of the EU itself, meaning more money and more power and less accountability. They care not a jot for whether their policies cause grief to the peoples of the member countries. We will get out of the EU eventually, because in this country people are furious about having been ignored. But I now fear that Boris and his team have run out of ideas and it’s going to be an even longer battle. The one thing the dishonest politicians have not allowed for is that we have always been a determined and stubborn people and we will not sit back and watch our liberty being trampled on for ever. They have underestimated the fury that will, eventually, be unleashed

  29. BJC
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:31 am | Permalink

    I don’t believe we would be in this position if it weren’t for the disgraceful antics of The Speaker. The government has, correctly, been operating within the bounds of convention, but it’s The Speaker’s overt abuse of power that has dismantled all the accepted norms to the Remainers’ advantage.

    A situation such as this is impossible to win because the powerbase is rewriting the rules of engagement on a whim.

    Parliament is certainly operating within its authority in trying to get its views heard, but it’s The Speaker who holds sole responsibility for actively fuelling the situation with his inconsistent decisions.

    • sm
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

      And what ‘interesting’ precedents the current Speaker is setting, isn’t he?

  30. Lifelogic
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:35 am | Permalink

    A lot of good sense Tony Abbott interviewed on a Spectator Radio podcast. Just to show that not quite everyone who had an Oxford PPE degree is a plonker.

    Javid it seems wants the 21 traitors back in the party. No thanks, what Brexit Voters will vote Conservative if they know the next Conservative Government is full of people who will undermine it again.

    Javid has been very unimpressive so far with this and his idiotic stamp duty suggestions then rapidly abandoned.

    Amber Rudd also idiotically wants these traitors back. In a Spectator podcast interview she says “Osborne is regarded as a great political mind and for good reason”. Well he made Gordon Brown chicken out of his early election by promising a £1 million IHT threshold each I suppose. Needless to say he never delivers on this nor did economic illiterate Hammond when he latter became an appalling tax borrow and piss down the drain Chancellor, full green crap, HS2 and other endless government waste.

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

      LL, well the lovely Amber has gone now and I say good riddance. She is another one that cannot be trusted. I am amazed Boris gave her a position in the cabinet.

  31. Kevin
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:39 am | Permalink

    Theresa May stopped Brexit on March 29th, tying Parliament’s hands by means
    of international law. Parliament is now trying to stop Brexit by tying the prime
    minister’s hands. Whatever position they hold, those who are stopping Brexit
    make full use of the tools available to them. We are just waiting to see what
    your party leader comes up with. He needs to show the same determination.

  32. Narrow Shoulders
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:40 am | Permalink

    I once had a family and no car.

    When I went out to buy a new car my family insisted on coming with me. My red lines and their red lines were different and we could not agree what we wanted in terms of price that I had to service and performance,
    comfort and appearance which were their concerns. Having them enthisiastically saying they wanted a car while I was trying to negotiate made those negotiations problematic.

    The middle of the road, family hatchback we ended up with broke my heart and I overpaid.

  33. The PrangWizard
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:42 am | Permalink

    All so reasonable. All so pointless.

    Months ago, maybe even a year or two, many of us could see that betrayals were being planned and executed in cahoots with the EU. Many of us realised that to protect our freedom, democracy and way of living words would be worthless against the plotters. The Left always organise and continue to organised by the plotters and Quislings.

    How many times have we, that is those of us who are under attack, been vilified and prevented from saying we would need to take direct action? How many times has it been unacceptable to say we would need to fight to defend ourselves. Not the done thing old boy.

    Now look where we are, on the point of utter defeat, and subjugation to the EU, a country destroyed by aggression overseas, and traitors and total weakness at home.

  34. None of the above
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:44 am | Permalink

    IMO, there are two ways forward for Leavers:

    Either, PM advises HM not to grant RA to withdrawal No6 bill and prorogues on 9th. Hold the Queen’s Speech as timetabled and debate it as long as possible.

    Or, tell parliament that RA will only be granted at the same time that a GE is proclaimed for 15th October.

  35. A.Sedgwick
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:45 am | Permalink

    This is obvious to all but those who have hidden agendas, which clearly is the majority of MPs.

    BJ has to effectively ignore this law, which could be illegal as the PM has been given wide ranging powers which are curtailed by this contrivance of an act. By resigning on Nov 1 not having signed this unbelievable letter of surrender a general election can take place. The Brexit Party will be dead and the Marxists and their apologists can go back to the EU if they win.

    Many times I have commented about the HoL. This latest episode of not doing their so called role in Parliament is disgraceful and reflects the absurd (not a word I like) and undemocratic imbalance. It has to be replaced with 300 Representatives of any party that win more than 1% in a general election. No need for a separate vote and some personnel would change after every election. It is a slam dunk election winner. If it was in Labour’s manifesto I could well vote for them, I feel so strongly about this c19 nonsense.

  36. Alan Joyce
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:49 am | Permalink

    Dear Mr. Redwood,

    As you say, most people understand this. So do our Remainer MP’s, except that they have deliberately chosen to ignore the basic rules of negotiation in order to further their twin objectives of negating the referendum result and keeping the UK in the EU – but without having to get their hands dirty in public by revoking Article 50.

    A general election is coming be it sooner or later. If it is sooner, before the 31st October, the Conservative party has a good chance of winning a working majority. If it is after that date then the odds even up as the PM will have failed on one of his key promises, i.e. to leave by the 31st, do or die. The bill passed in the House mandates the PM to ask for an extension so the election will now be later when it is more advantageous to the opposition.

    The Remainer parties look as though they will pool their efforts in order to maximise their impact at the election. The Conservative party should do the same with the Brexit party. If the Conservatives are too stubborn or too proud to ask for Mr. Farage’s help then they are foolish. He is offering a pact that would likely see the Conservatives with a healthy majority inspite of when the election is held, on one condition – a clean Brexit.

    With Brexit delivered, the raison d’etre of the Brexit party would be gone and they would, in all probability, fade into political oblivion. Mr. Farage said he wants his life back.

    What’s not to like?

  37. Andy
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:56 am | Permalink

    I need a new car – and I have a brilliant technique for getting a great deal. The Brexiteer technique.

    I am going to drive to the showroom in my existing car – and smash it to pieces outside the dealership in front of all of the staff.

    I am then going to march in – insult them all a bit – and make it very clear to them that they need me more than I need them.

    I will then tell them, in no uncertain terms,that I will walk away (literally) unless they give me all the benefits of having my old car but with none of the monthly repayments.

    If other customers challenge the wisdom of what I am doing, I will simply call them traitors and challenge them to a duel.

    Tell me – what sort of new car can I expect using your Brexit negotiating technique?

    Reply It is remain who are trying to drag our economy down with all the false gloomy forecasts. Leavers are proud of the UK car and have no intention of damaging it.

    • libertarian
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 10:58 am | Permalink

      Andy

      As you blatantly have never run a business, have no idea about negotiation, have never bought a new car then this hysterical ranting is ridiculous . You sound like a …..

      Heres a better analogy

      I currently pay a European Car Maker a monthly fee to run one of their cars

      I’m not happy with it and want to change it. I go back to the dealer and tell them I’m ending the lease and handing the car back. They then try to sell me a new deal, which i balance against buying a car or lease from a Japanese , British or American maker and select the best deal for me . See Andy really simple when you know what youre doing

      Ask a grown up to help next time you need a new car

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

        Well, it got a reply from John, and one where he failed to address a single point that Andy made in his hilarious post, except by a glaring straw man.

        I think that Andy has nailed the laughable failure of psychology perfectly.

        • libertarian
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

          MiC

          Compared to your inane analogies I guess Andy’s sound sane to you.

          Of course if either of you had actually ever done anything in the real world you would know how silly your stories are

        • NickC
          Posted September 8, 2019 at 12:13 am | Permalink

          Martin (or is it Andy?), The analogy is ridiculous, and has no bearing on reality. It is Remains who have smashed up the UK car, and Remains who go to the EU demanding a deal but promising to accept whatever the EU dishes out. That has been the Remain technique for 48 years – and look at the result after yet another 3 years of Remain government.

      • Lifelogic
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

        Exactly.

    • Fred H
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:12 am | Permalink

      Andy ….well done you have surpassed your usual unhinged reasoning.

    • TomTomTom
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 12:26 pm | Permalink

      You could always try the “Remainer Technique”.

      March into one showroom ( ignore, all others on the same road ).

      Announce loudly that you want a car, and won’t leave without a car.

      Sign-up to a PCP and immediately start paying £1B a month.

      Accept any car at any price that the sales staff offer you.

    • Andy
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 12:27 pm | Permalink

      Ah yes. I forgot. Having smashed up my car, insulated the showroom staff and demand all the benefits of my car with none of the costs I should think positive thoughts. Because that will help.

      • libertarian
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:07 pm | Permalink

        Andy

        Blimey you insulated the staff, what did you do wrap them in cotton wool .

        If you did all the things you say in your rant the only thing you’d be wrapped in is a jacket with no sleeves that binds your arms

        • Fedupsoutherner
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 10:41 pm | Permalink

          Brilliant Libertarian!

    • Shirley
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

      Picture this: you were sold a duff car (the EU treaties) and want to return it, and not purchase another one (the WA treaty) and you don’t want to continue paying for the duff car you have returned, neither do you want to pay them $39bn for permission to return it.

      • Andy
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 5:44 pm | Permalink

        You are perfectly entitled to get rid of your car.

        The trouble with Brexiteers is that you want all the benefits of having a car.

        • NickC
          Posted September 8, 2019 at 12:08 am | Permalink

          Andy, A non-EU car.

  38. JoolsB
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:59 am | Permalink

    John, are you sure Boris is prepared to walk away or is there a risk he will accept May’s dreadful deal? Surely the time of trying to do a deal is long gone especially now his options have been undermined by a coup of 328 traitors and a pipsqueak Speaker and he now needs to declare we are going out on WTO terms. The added bonus would be we then have £39 billion to find something much better than what the EU are offering. More importantly he needs to form a pact with the Brexit party to ensure we don’t end up with a Marxist/SNP Government inflicting untold damage on England.

    Does he have to wait until October 31st or is it possible to inform the EU before then that that’s it, we are out with immediate effect? I’m really hoping he has got something up his sleeve that will put the EU loving anti-democratic remainer MPs back in their box but he has to accept Nigel Farage’s offer of support. The two together would walk it.

  39. Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:03 am | Permalink

    Why give this illegally presented Bill the Royal Assent? You are teaching Parliament that they can usurp the role of the Government anytime they like!

  40. Fred H
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:08 am | Permalink

    As in cheating at cards sleight of hand often works. The Remain rabble seem to be rather good at this ‘cheating democracy and the will of the people’.

  41. Oggy
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    I see today’s press is reporting that MP’s including the ousted rebel Tories are preparing to take Boris to court if he finds a way round their vile ‘no deal’ bill, and how many people here wanted them to be forgiven and have the whip returned. You now have your answer. They aren’t and never were Conservatives they belong in the Libdims.

    Boris must stick it out until we get the GE we want and give these disgraceful and undemocratic MP’s the order of the boot.

  42. David Taylor
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:11 am | Permalink

    I think the situation has progressed beyond , deal or no deal , it has become more basic , does a democratic vote mean anything ? I heard a spokesman say that an election can be called on the basis of a simple majority , 51 to 49 , as part of the fixed term parliament act .
    A similar majority was returned for Britain to leave the EU .
    I have heard the Plaid Cymru spokesmen & Lib Dem leader say openly , that they have an opportunity to Stop Brexit because the Prime Minister & Governments position is so weak .
    The commentators did not challenge either person on that comment .
    Britain is in the same position as Ireland in 2008 I think , we are being made to vote again as the EU did not like our choice .
    Wales was granted devolution on a low turnout and therefore a small majority for it , the turnout for the Brexit referendum was large and the majority for leave should be respected .
    Both sides can continue with their commitments to each other under international law and agreements , political control of the UK from Brussels is unacceptable to the majority of the UK

  43. Lifelogic
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:11 am | Permalink

    Nick Robinson has a podcast interview with one of the dire 21 “the-alistair-burt-one”. Burt complains it’s not a divorce, he feels he has been “assassinated”. No you committed suicide mate, you chose to try to destroy your old Party. The man is pleasant but totally misguided (as all Libdims are) just join the Libdems you silly man you are one. You are not a Conservative and nor are the other 20. You are traitors to the Country, the people and your ex party.

    The choice is Boris & Brexit or Corbyn and the destruction of the Conservative Party and a Marxist economy basket case country. What part of Brexit Party first on 30% + Conservatives fifth with 9% did you not get mate? Get real.

  44. glen cullen
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:15 am | Permalink

    why did the ‘lords’ stop the filibuster ?

    • rose
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

      Because the Opposition promised an election on October 15. Reneging now of course.

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:15 pm | Permalink

        Like the Tories did over their “pledge” to the Scots you mean, before the last indyref votes were even counted?

        If you hand it out, then take it back…

  45. Bob
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:18 am | Permalink

    Taking “no deal” off of the table in a negotiation is like playing cricket with a broken bat.

  46. meAgain
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:25 am | Permalink

    One thing that is not going to change is geography- we are right slap bang beside the EU bloc of 27 countries, the riches economic bloc in the world, and if anyone thinks that this can be ignored to our advantage in favour of trading WTO rules with as yet unknown parties worldwide they are deluded. Right now we have the best deal we can ever get- let me repeat- ‘the best deal we can ever get’- but after 31st Oct we will have to negotiate a new deal that in time we will come to see as being not always to our advantage.

    It’s a bit like the egg producer who wants to sell his eggs to the local supermarket- first of all he will have several meetings with supermarket bosses to negotiate- then introduction fees and probably ongoing payments etc will have to be paid to buy shelf space/ shelf time etc and thereafter he will have to attend in the supermarket in person in the early hours to stack the shelves himself- so then how can anyone doubt that after we leave 31st October we will not be akin to the egg-seller as far as the EU is concerned. In this regard John is correct- it’s about negotiation- but if we’re not in a position to negotiate- then?

  47. Leaver
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:27 am | Permalink

    I’m furious with Jacob Rees-Mogg for lying down on the job. It looked terrible.

    He’s just given the Jeremy Corbyn his dream election poster. What was the man thinking?

    • rose
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

      The Victorians did it all the time, and he is accused of being one, isn’t he?

      Hours and hours in the same position can be painful for the back, especially for very tall men. By leaning back low, he can hear the loudspeaker at the back of the bench when the din is raging. More important to hear every word than look good when one is the Leader of the House.

      • Martin in Cardiff
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:16 pm | Permalink

        Being awake helps too.

  48. Newmania
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:27 am | Permalink

    This is exactly where those of us with experience of the sharp end despair at the naivety of the Brexit dreamers A threat – Indispensable; but it must be plausible at least not laughable. True the high stakes gambler may win but the risks are real and politicians cannot behave as they were businessmen ; they are not.
    In business ongoing relationship s are normal so people have to like you as well as slightly fear you – this is very different to a one off meeting. Where is the ,grovelling leaving a way out – a way out with dignity, where is the “promise” ? The real key is the facts and people , read them right , you win , get them wrong and you lose bigly . Our failure was predictable because Brexit is based on a childish misreading the position and a failure to inhabit the opponents mind .

    We have put ourselves in the position of junior employee of a small dependent supplier strutting into our much larger client’s office – and insulting the CEO in front of his staff.

    ( JR`s claim we hold all the cards has already collapsed …why is he still saying it , anyone know ?)

    • libertarian
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:04 am | Permalink

      Newmaniac

      Lol , what you know about business could be written on the back of a stamp and still leave room for your cv

      Hows the move to Frankfurt going .

      Oh and by the way

      The Bank of England has revised its forecasts for the possible impact of a “worst case scenario” Brexit, saying exiting the EU without a deal is likely to be less damaging than previously thought.

      Governor Mark Carney told MPs on Wednesday preparations for a possible no-deal Brexit so far this year have lessened the likely economic impact of falling out of the EU without a deal or a transition period.

      “The impact of that has been to reduce, in our judgment, the worst case scenario,” Carney told MPs on the Treasury Select Committee.

      Mind his job loss predictions are still total cobblers

    • NickC
      Posted September 8, 2019 at 12:16 am | Permalink

      Newmania, The failure is all the Remain government’s of the last 3 years. And Brexit is hardly a naive dream since most of the world is not in the EU either.

  49. Edward2
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:30 am | Permalink

    Once you view everything being done by Remain supporters as determined actions to stop the UK leaving the EU then everything they do becomes obvious.
    The delay in us leaving after the referendum. The court cases. The ridiculous Project Fear 1.0 and 2.0. The actions of the Speaker. The pathetic Withdrawal Agreement The reason for having further referenda, and many more things which were deliberately designed to thwart the result of the referendum.
    Now I accept they have a right to try to do these things, but it would be much more honest if they came out and plainly told us that this was their real reason for doing what they are doing.

  50. William1995
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:44 am | Permalink

    It is so depressing reading the news and seeing post after post from the BBC slamming everything BJ says and does and having to listen to vitriolic remoaners self-indulge in their achievement to thwart Brexit. I can only hope the feelings of despair I have for this Parliament are more widespread than the BBC would leave me to believe, and that people are so fed up that actions such as suspending 21 hardliners who stop any progress are popular and will lead to a massive majority for BJ. This will need to be in spite of him having to inevitably ask for a delay.

    All seems depressingly unlikely at the moment. This is a sad moment for our Country and its standing in the World.

  51. Dominic
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:48 am | Permalink

    My final contribution.

    Johnson and Farage must enter into an electoral pact to prevent Marxists achieving power.

    Johnson must understand that if Marxist Labour do achieve power even in a coalition the UK will be destroyed

    A Tory-BP pact, formal or indeed informal, can destroy that most pernicious threat to our nation, our freedoms and our future

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

      Well said Dominic.

  52. Christine
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:04 am | Permalink

    Boris needs to get tough with the EU. He needs to threaten to veto any legislation they propose including their five-year budget. He needs to stop giving money to all the ‘off the books’ projects. He needs to stop giving them our Foreign Aid budget so they can re-badge it as their own. He can do a lot to stop their federalist ambitions. Make it painful to them if we stay. Macron will soon throw us out with no deal.

    • julie williams
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:18 am | Permalink

      Agreed.
      And if this fails and the “rebel alliance” keep us in the EU, Johnson will have to ensure that we;
      a, Become “good” Europeans , ignoring all the rules that we don’t like and doing the absolute minimum, work to rule, if you like.
      b,Push for a two-tier EU, where the disasters of the Eurozone are ringfenced and we don’t pay a penny to them whilst toughening up our exemptions such as Schengen
      c, Ensure that the smallest treaty change in the future will trigger a UK referendum.

    • Fred H
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:37 am | Permalink

      Good point…..If we remain in then I will veto EVERY proposal I can.

  53. Sir Joe Soap
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:04 am | Permalink

    There is more to it than this.

    May’s Government should have spent the past three years preparing, so that all bases were covered when we walked away. Remainers have been given too much reason and ammunition to say no deal would be a disaster. Importers should have been encouraged by all means possible to purchase non-EU product. De facto deals could have been agreed with others, with the government supporting importers by paying the tariffs in the meantime. EU product could have been mysteriously “held-up” at Dover, just as the French used to hold up UK produced Hondas.

    US medicines, Far Eastern cars, Australian meat and wine… the list goes on. We have suckered ourselves into believing that we are dependent on a bloc which is, in truth, dependent on us.

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

      Yes, why buy stuff from twenty-two miles away, when you can ship it for twelve thousand eh?

  54. James Freeman
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    During negotiations you also need to fully understood the rules of the game and are covered for any financial obligations you might agree to.

    So during the passage of Corbyn’s surrender bill:
    – Why did the brexiteers in the House of Lords cave in so quickly over their filibuster?
    – Why wasn’t Queen’s Consent asked for before the third reading?
    – Where is the finance bill to pay for the resulting EU extension?

    I hope the government knows what it is doing, but last week has not filled me with confidence!

  55. James Matthews
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:09 am | Permalink

    Our host is preaching to the converted so far as I and many other people who read this blog are concerned. The problem remains, what is to be done? It is reported that members of the Conservative party have reached an agreement with the EU for a three month extension of our membership on some unspecified terms. If this is true it elevates the level of treachery in our Parliamentarians to new heights, openly selling our nationhood and for millions of us destroying whatever belief we ever had that we live in a democracy. Parliament no longer has a legitimate claim to anyone’s loyalty. Those of us who once trusted it must follow its example and learn subvert its authority. It has clearly decided to ignore and subvert the authority of the electorate.

  56. MickN
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    Mrs May. The only person ever to have gone into DFS and come out with a full priced sofa.

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

      MickN, yes and only 6 months to pay for it.

  57. ferdinand
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:18 am | Permalink

    One extra negotiating stance. ” My customer has asked me to seek a deal with you on the house but I am not happy your house is worth buying. So I am afraid my customer has taken my advice, and is no longer interested”.

  58. tim
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:29 am | Permalink

    17,400,000 people voted to leave the EU altogether, not for vassal status.
    The EU is also seeking to extort £39,000,000,000 (US$50 billion) from Britain as a divorce bill, without even offering a trade deal in return. Its terms are intolerable, and are clearly intended as punishment, but also as a deterrent to others.
    The EU is terrified of a low-tax, low-regulation UK as its neighbor, attracting investment and with global clout. It wants to make its departure as painful as possible. It hopes to show voters that it was simply not worth it, the UK can do without friends like that.
    No deal, WTO!

    • Andy
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 12:23 pm | Permalink

      Which regulations do you want to scrap? Maternity pay? That’s an easy one I guess. Sick pay? Working time regulations? After all it is expensive to business not to be able to send 12 year olds down the mines for 90 hours a week in return for £1.30.

      Or perhaps it is consumer regulation you want to slash? The things that guarantee you rights in case the things you buy are substandard, or faulty, or not as described?

      Or perhaps it is the environment that you would like screw over. It is cheaper and easier for big business to pollute than it is to dispose of things carefully. We can scrap those regulations too.

      The problem Brexiteers have when you talk about all these heaps of regulations that you wish to axe is that none of you can never name any. This gives the impression that you either haven’t thought about it or, worse, that you are too fearful to say.

      Re[ply Tired old lies today. These are not the regs we want to remove. We want to start with fishing regs that damage our fishing grounds and fishermen, VAT rules that make us charge VAT on things we want exempted, and ag regs that are bad for our livestock and farmers.

      • Edward2
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

        You have had many lists of EU laws, regulations, directives and rules we should scrap.
        You continue to ignore them preferring to make up your own fantasy lists.

  59. EarleyRiser
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    So what happens the Monday after we have left without a deal?
    We turn up in Brussels and say we want to talk about trade deal now? How do you expect that discussion to go?
    Honestly?

    • Shirley
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:59 am | Permalink

      Why wouldn’t they? A trade deal is in the interest of both sides.

      Or course, they could refuse, but then it would be clear to the whole world that the EU wish to disrupt trade, and that they are bitter about a member leaving the EU in a perfectly legitimate way.

      • Fedupsoutherner
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

        Shirley, exactly right.

  60. bill brown
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    Sir JR

    I just wish your working hypothesis was right, it would actually to a certain degree make sense, but the problem is that we have not really seen real negotiations going on and with the PM and his past reputation nobody trust anything he says anymore .

    This is one of the other reasons , why we’re in the mess we are in right now.

    I am not sure the Eu are too concerned about the size of any tariffs.

    • libertarian
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:12 pm | Permalink

      Hansy Brown

      Two Quotes for you

      “German car makers fear they’ll bear the brunt of any post-Brexit tariffs on trade with UK”

      “Germany will fight to the last hour to prevent the UK crashing out of the EU without a deal and is willing to hear any fresh ideas for the Irish border backstop, the country’s ambassador to the UK has said.
      Speaking at a car manufacturers’ summit in London, Peter Wittig said Germany cherished its relationship with the UK and was ready to talk about solutions the new prime minister might have for the Irish border problem”

  61. a-tracy
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    In respect of trade and the no deal worries I wonder what’s going on and why the news aren’t investigating properly for example: In 2015 from Statista I read the UK imported 128,000 tonnes of milk and cream from the Irish Republic, in turn we are told Northern Ireland farmers are dependent on exports of 1/3 of their production of milk products to Southern Ireland and 1,000’s of dairy herds will have to be culled? Is it me? Or is this just an export-go-around so we have to pay extra EU duty on all of this product crossing borders? Why don’t we stop importing dairy from Southern Ireland and just move the product from Northern Ireland into the rest of the UK with no duty or paperwork problems?

    Then we are told The EU drug companies will no longer sell us life essential drugs as a sort of punishment for not leaving on their terms, but we are given no facts nor investigation into the details of this threat to our public health in the past three years, why? Is it Because news stations like C4 news would rather just represent Remain and stand in front of shouty people with megaphones waving EU flags, how is this balanced reporting, investigative journalism or news? How many pharmaceutical businesses do we have in the UK and what % of our essential drugs do we make ourselves in the UK? How many of these companies are owned by UK shareholders and how many have we sold out? What % do we import from the EU and specifically where from in the EU? are there other Countries in the World that produce these life saving drugs? Can we switch on production to make them ourselves in the UK will other rest of the world Pharmaceutical companies want to set up production here to fill this gap that people are being caused alarm over? Is America or Australia dependent on the EU for these same drugs and no-one else will want to supply the NHS? I just don’t believe what I’m being told anymore because there is no balance and it doesn’t stack up!

    We are told the EU are ready to cut off sales and stand together as a block to bring the UK down and no real questions are being asked. I know people concerned now about booking a holiday out to the EU because they’re concerned they won’t be allowed to travel and will lose their money this will harm the EU as well as the UK’s travel industry but it seems a price the governments want to make. The scaremongering just isn’t being challenged and i want to ask Sky, BBC and C4 why? You aren’t ‘opinion news’ you are supposed to be United Kingdom investigative journalists and at the moment I don’t think they can call themselves news channels. We’ve even got one journalist interviewing another journalist and asking their opinion not fact just their opinion.

  62. Ian!
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:38 am | Permalink

    Irony, the Remainer faction of the UK Parliament has let it be known today that the UK PM must uphold the rule of Law.

    Never lose sight of the situation that EU Laws and Rules are superior to anything the UK Parliament wish to introduce

    However, the rule of law states first we must leave the EU, so which law would the PM be breaking? Parliament is only lent its sovereignty by its people. The People trump the MP’s. So which law should he in fact keep to?

    Mrs Mays extension to article 50 until the 31st was conditional on that the time was used to pass the WA through Parliament, any thing else would be seen as a breach by the EU, and we would be required to just leave. This weeks bill through Parliament broke that condition and to the EU in their original statement would make this bill illegal.

    In practice all the so-called extensions to date have broke EU Law and are not a Laws in the legal sense. These are just individuals manipulating situations for personal agendas

    Then we have the MSM reporting today that the ‘Conservative’ remainers did in fact seek and get help and permission from their bosses in the EU to stop us leaving without signing the WA. The deed and the intention under EU law makes that illegal in itself. As under article 50 the EU is prohibited to get involved from getting involved or influencing the leaving Country

    The extensions there are various numbers and versions are all illegal under the EU laws that govern this country. They have not been legalized as required by Article 50 so as of now we left the EU in March.

    You could easily and logically suggest given the actions and practice shown by the law makers, that all laws in the UK can mean or be ignored by everyone.

    Given parliaments total disregard for its People, its disregard to the Law, does it really matter what any of them think or do. Their overriding direction is to destroy the quality of life the UK People wish to enjoy, it is to destroy centuries of good parliamentary process, all seemingly so they can fulfil their dreams as required in the 1984 Bible.

    Looks like it is time for a revolution – oh, sorry it has already started by the anti-democratic remainers

  63. Bob
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:43 am | Permalink

    When we eventually clear the current wittering rabble from the Palace of Westminster perhaps we can also clear the civil service and educational establishment of the Common Purpose automatons that have degraded it and rendered students unable to perform the most basic critical thinking tasks by filling their heads with their Marxist fluff.

    • Dominic
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 10:40 am | Permalink

      An explanation in one paragraph that describes precisely the dynamic at work since 1997. It is abhorrent that the Tories have continued New Labour’s plan. It represents the culmination of Tory cowardice on the one hand and Labour social reconstruction on the other.

      Marx was correct about one thing. History does repeat itself and events will come full circle in time

  64. ukretired123
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:52 am | Permalink

    The useful EU idiots are getting more fearful and desperate like:-

    Fear of Fear (FOF) Itself (FOFI)!
    Take your pick!
    It’s why Jeremy Corbyn has been Chicken because he knows he has hated the EU all his life but hates Britain more and cannot wait until he can destroy it. A fellow Marxist leaning comrade died yesterday who held similar revolutionary views and was all for the many not the few until he got in power.
    Then proceeded to grab everything from the poor people for the Few not the many.
    Mugabe!
    Welcome to La, La, Land of Jeremy comrades.

  65. BR
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:55 am | Permalink

    WINNING STRATEGY (when Johnson took over):

    1. “We’re leaving on 31/10”. We’re not signing that WA (refer to 147 issues as pointed out by many commentators).

    2. When they take over order paper, say “You can prat around all you like, noting you do will get Royal Assent”.

    3. Lose VoNC.

    4. Wait 14 days. Set election date in November. Tick, tick, tick…

    “EU calling, Prime Minster. They’d like you to tell them what they have to sign”.

    Johnson has played his cards on this abysmally. Unless he wants us to give him a blank cheque a la May.

    Now if he gets a GE at all it will be pre 31/10 with the BXP in full swing and by having a new session of parliament they will be able to bring back the awful WA. This seems like a recipe for suicide.

    I won’t be conned into that again when I know that he could have got us out on the 31st with the EU running round like headless chickens giving in to our every demand (or seeing us leave on WTO terms and then begging for a FTA).

    If he refuses Assent on Monday, in order to get my vote it will need to be WITHOUT holding a GE prior to 31/10. Otherwise it will be plain that he was angling to have free rein to bring back the WA with as many warts as he chooses.

    A GE MUST be fought on explicit details of what the future arrangement with the EU will look like. None of the ludicrous levels of vagueness we see from all sides, expecting tribal voting and expecting us to believe that some of these people are actually leading the charge for what our tribe wants.

    The only people who have a clear position are the BXP (WTO – initially at least) and the Illiberal Undemocrats (thwart the will of the people and do what they say). The rest are charlatans living in 20th century politics.

    The ERG would do well to consider changing their allegiance en masse to the BXP, but only after the next election.

    ONE LAST CHANCE Johnson – on Monday, refuse Assent, prorogue and make it clear that you will refuse Assent if the WA is brought back in its current form and refuse any election before November.

    See how fast they want an VoNC/election then – but with Assent refused in their awful Bill, there’s no need to hold a GE before November. I will not vote Conservative before we have left in a way that satisfies me (non-BRINO).

  66. Lindsay McDougall
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    If by “getting a deal” Mr Johnson means getting the EC to agree a glide path towards a comprehensive free trade agreement, well and good. If he means agreeing to Mrs May’s draft Withdrawal Agreement minus the Irish backstop, not so good. The fact that I am a member of the Conservative Party does not prevent me from voting for the Brexit Party if the Government agrees an unacceptable WA with the EC.

    Thinking ahead to tactics in the endgame, Mr Johnson could refuse to ask for an extension to Article 50, resign on Tuesday 29th October if he is pursued in the courts and recommend to Her Majesty that Mr Corbyn be invited to form a Government. That way, Mr Corbyn would carry the can for requesting the extension. And I bet you that he wouldn’t be able to form a Government.

  67. Avocado
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    Sir John, is this possible?

    If the opposition MPs refuse to vote for a GE on Monday then that will be twice they have effectively stated they have full confidence in HM government.
    BJ is in the north east of Scotland this weekend. A certain HM Queen is also in the area. Instead of presenting the “Surrender” bill to the Queen, and with BJ being elected on a promise to leave on 31st October, as he has the full confidence of the house, can he not request the upcoming prorogation to be extended to 1st November?
    When the opposition MPs squeal at this news he can calmly point out that they have demonstrated their full confidence in him and that he could not possibly present the Surrender bill to HM as it would prevent him from fulfilling his promise to the electors.

  68. Denis Cooper
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 10:30 am | Permalink

    What more can I say?

    I repeatedly warned here and elsewhere against allowing “no deal” as in “no special or preferential trade deal with the EU, instead just defaulting to the existing WTO treaties” to be conflated with “no deal with the EU on anything at all, not even on whether UK customs officer John in Dover is still allowed to ring up his opposite number Jacques in Calais”, but as in other cases those warnings were simply ignored.

    And I also repeatedly pointed out that the advice given to the German government on the economic impact on the UK of a default to the WTO treaties suggested that the estimates produced by the UK Treasury under both George Osborne and Philip Hammond were far too high, but that too got ignored.

  69. Denis Cooper
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 10:41 am | Permalink

    I will say this:

    Boris Johnson should certainly not be making a pilgrimage to Dublin for an audience with the Irish Prime Minister on Monday.

    Instead if he has even the slightest shred of honour he should seek an audience with Her Majesty to tender his resignation.

    He is bringing disgrace on us all, and it would be better if etc ed

    • Dominic
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

      Absolutely.

      The PM of one of the most powerful nations on earth crawling on his hands and knees to seek an audience with another leader that openly expressed his contempt for the UK

      Some of my immediate family live in Ireland and believe me when I tell you that there’s widespread contempt for the Irish political class

      I honestly believed Johnson would drag us into a new era of politics. I was wrong. The man is an offence

      We truly have entered into national shame territory

      • Brenda
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

        Yes, the UK is now weaker than Ireland. That is Brexit for you. Are you finally cottoning on to what a scam it is? Do you get why Trump and putin love Brexit?

        • Denis Cooper
          Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

          The UK is only weaker than Ireland in having weaker leaders who are prepared to collude with the Irish leaders.

          • Martin in Cardiff
            Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

            No, it’s because Ireland has twenty-seven countries, of four hundred and fifty million people, and a GDP of fourteen trillion euros resolutely behind them.

            Or have you not noticed?

    • Shirley
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

      He is defending democracy in the UK. It’s about time the other politicians did the same instead of trying to destroy it. Democracy is our defence against a rogue Parliament, and they cannot delay a GE indefinitely.

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 2:43 pm | Permalink

        He is challenging the rule of law, which is a more fundamental and universal principle than the principle of democratic government.

    • Fedupsoutherner
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 3:14 pm | Permalink

      Dennis, er, excuse me, but what exactly has Boris done wrong? He has tried to negotiate a better deal and said that if it wasn’t possible he would leave without a deal. Exactly what May said except she was lying. Boris has had an impossible task surrounded by traitors and liars. They have made life impossible for him and are guilty of making our great nation look ridiculous.

      • Denis Cooper
        Posted September 7, 2019 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

        Like Michael Gove last week he is mooting that he will break the law. So far he has not done so, and in fact the law has not even been through the final stage of Royal Assent, but just mooting it is wrong in itself, as he should know if he actually read the Ministerial Code for which he wrote a new Foreword:

        http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2019/09/07/the-art-of-the-deal/#comment-1052977

  70. margaret howard
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:11 am | Permalink

    JR

    “We can regain control of our money, our laws, our borders and our fish.”

    NOT AGAIN! We never lost them. You know it, I know it so I presume the general public are there to be bamboozled with myths and side-0f-a-bus slogans.

  71. Trevor Butler
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:18 am | Permalink

    And I thought Hong Kong (where I live) had become a ‘banana republic’ – The mother of all parliaments make the HK LegCo look nearly respectable,,,,,

  72. David
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 11:19 am | Permalink

    Deal or no deal was not on the ballot paper in 2016 it was leave or remain and leave won. Get out 31st October do or die and start enquires into Treason by the rebels for collusion with the EU bring on a Police investigation. The rebels and remain camp have broken the law article 50 triggered and in force 1972 EEC act repealed what are we waiting for?, go on Boris get the job done and beat the snivelling losers into line.

  73. forthurst
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 12:02 pm | Permalink

    What we have been witnessing in the last three years and more particularly, latterly, is the failure of the British Constitution to provide for effective governance. Of course, the situation was ever thus; Parliament has never represented the people because it has been far too easy for unrepresentative factions to seize control of political parties, elected by FPTP, which itself creates an almost insurmountable obstacle to a new national party arising to replace those parties like the Tories which have no ethos if they ever did.

    The consequences of our failing democratic institutions is the destruction of the UK as an independent mono-cultural state into a multi-cultural cesspit beholden to a predatory occupying power based Brussels with no end to an influx of people whose cultures are inimical to Western civilisation as well as causing severe overcrowding and pressure on public services.

    There is no majority in Parliament for any putative government yet there is no higher authority which can simply dissolve Parliament and call an election. What we have instead of a head of state with constitutional authority is a tiresome soap opera.

    We have a bicameral system of government in which the higher chamber consists solely of appointees who even less represent the popular will than the lower house.

    A casual observer of the House in action would observe that there appear to far more members than seats, that divisions take half an hour, interposed by boring and repetitive speeches, which themselves are interrupted by endless interjections, and that the proceedings are overseen by a pompous little man combining verbosity and a lack of respect for convention in equal measure.

    Our system of governance is broken and it is obvious for all to see, except of course those who personally benefit from it, namely the members of the two Houses.

  74. BillM
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

    It makes sense to all Leavers but to too few Remainers. Their reason being that this prevention of a ‘No Deal’ exit is a mere scam to prevent us Leaving the EU at all – The real aim of these wretched Remainers. They wish to betray democracy in the Mother of all Parliaments! Who’d believe it?
    However, again, I would ask the Remainers why would they prefer to be ruled by and have our laws defined by an unelected and unaccountable cabal of Foreigners in faraway Brussels, rather than by those specially selected by the British people in a democratic election and all working from Westminster? Furthermore those we do elect are answerable to the British people every five years so they definitely are accountable. Not so the EU Commission, the European Oligarchy.

  75. Tony Sharp
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

    Sir John,
    It appears that various MPs both Opposition and Government benches have colluded with Brussels over the ‘Benn Act’ directly with the intention of securing an Extension. This presumably to run out the 31st October but perhaps with other conditions.

    This collusion is grounds to walk away with No Deal because the EU has not negotiated with the Government in ‘good faith’ and has in fact negotiated with a ‘third party’.

    • julie williams
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 3:14 pm | Permalink

      wouldn’t that be a sight to behold ..if there was evidence; did anyone accidently switch their mobile phone when a certain ex-chancellor/ex-tory said this, per Guido?

  76. JoolsB
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

    Just been listening to a very smug Dominic Grieve on the radio actually bragging that if his own Prime Minister fails to do what Parliament have told him then he will be taken to court and could actually go to jail. And those morons in the parliamentary Tory party still want this traitor to be let back in.

    Why hasn’t his local Association called a bi-election to get rid of this nasty piece of work?

    • Martin in Cardiff
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

      Oh, where to begin.

      He’s a democratically-elected MP. He has no local association. He’s been kicked out of the party. Even if he weren’t, the association cannot override democracy.

      Did you actually go to school, Jools?

    • Fred H
      Posted September 8, 2019 at 8:11 am | Permalink

      Jools…They deselected him. The Conservative Central Office then refused his deselection. This is the weak nature of who determines policy at the top of the Party.

  77. Oldwulf
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    I have seen a report that, according to a former director of public prosecutions, Mr Johnson may be put in prison if he ignores the new law and refuses to delay Brexit.

    However, there was no mention of the collusion between the Remain MPs and the EU which presumably amounts to treason.

    • Original Richard
      Posted September 7, 2019 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

      Mr. Johnson wouldn’t be the first person to be put in prison for trying to bring independence to his country.

  78. gregory martin
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 7:20 pm | Permalink

    “Ahead of our departure from the EU in October , in recognition of his sterling service to European democracy, the newly ennobled Lord Nigel of Bosham , assumes his seat in the HOL, and is appointed to the Cabinet, to head up a new initiative in future European relations “

  79. Original Richard
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 8:36 pm | Permalink

    When we joined the Common Market we believed we were moving to a select estate where we would pay a share for the upkeep of the roads to facilitate travel within the estate and perhaps some other useful features such as a security patrol.

    Now we find ourselves in a corrupt and expanding commune where we cannot elect and remove those who are making the rules.

  80. Original Richard
    Posted September 7, 2019 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    The government is being criticised by the EU and its UK collaborators for not coming up with alternatives to the backstop.

    There are 4 reasons for this :

    1) As described by Yanis Varoufakis, the EU’s principle negotiating tactic is to ask the opposing side to come up with a proposal and then to rubbish it. So if a solution was required for the Irish border and the UK came up with a viable proposal the EU would simply reject it whether or not it contained any merit. Thus any solution will have to be suggested by the EU in order for the EU to adopt it.

    2) It seems that although the EU is seriously worried about the integrity of its SM, there is no such worry on the UK side.

    This is because there is nothing to worry about.

    No “backstop” is actually required. It is merely a false construct between Mrs May and the EU to provide a reason for the UK to be permanently locked into the EU.

    The UK government, the Irish government and the EU (Mr. Juncker) have said they would not be putting in place a hard border thus respecting the GFA. Import duty can be handled in the same way as currently exists for differing excise duties and VAT across the border.

    The integrity of the EU’s SM does not require checks at the border for product specification. It is not necessary for goods coming from China and it is not necessary for goods coming from the UK. The checks are made well away from the border starting with the importer, then by the retailer and finally by trading standards. If necessary, if it does not exist already, we can make it a criminal offence to bring non-compliant goods into Ireland.

    3) The EU’s stance that there is no alternative to the backstop is illogical simply because if we leave without signing their WA treaty the EU will have to find a “solution” themselves to the backstop double quick.

    4) It’s not our problem to solve the EU’s SM integrity.

    • rose
      Posted September 8, 2019 at 11:32 pm | Permalink

      I can’t understand why the Government doesn’t keep shouting this from the rooftops, and that the backstop drives a coach and horses through the Belfast Agreement by annexing Northern Ireland without the consent of its people.

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    John Redwood won a free place at Kent College, Canterbury, He graduated from Magdalen College Oxford, has a DPhil and is a fellow of All Souls College. A businessman by background, he has been a director of NM Rothschild merchant bank and chairman of a quoted industrial PLC.

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